The UnlearnT Podcast
The UnlearnT Podcast is designed to help you gain the courage to change your mind about things you never thought you would change your mind about. Our hope is that you will begin to move towards a life of freedom after hearing stories from individuals who have chosen to unlearn some things in their lives.
The UnlearnT Podcast
Unlearning The Gospel Music Industry (Was Maverick City's Manager Right or Wrong?)
Link to Darnell’s episode on Unlearning Marriage:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/0cRfDyy6EqqfTWewDvXs7Q?si=oOHrilbERvqC7KONjgSlEg
Darnell Harris joins us for a special conversation about the tension between industry success and spiritual authenticity in worship leadership.
• The episode was prompted by a controversial podcast featuring Norman from Tribl Records discussing his industry-focused approach with Maverick City Music
• Darnell shares concerns about worship leaders feeling their ministry isn't valuable if it doesn't bring headlines, Grammys, or viral moments
• The crucial question: are you being led by the Lord or by the marketplace?
• Understanding the difference between what is "good" and what is "God"
• King David's story illustrates the danger of adopting methods that work but aren't God's prescribed way
• True success comes from obedience to God, not metrics, likes, or streams
• Worship must be formed in everything you do, not just when you're on stage
• The challenge of maintaining spiritual discernment in a social media-saturated culture
If you enjoyed part one of this conversation, tune in next week for the conclusion of this two-part series. Continue to like, share, and subscribe so we can grow this unlearning community together.
hello everybody and welcome us again to the unlearned podcast. I'm your host, ruth abigail aka ra, and this is the podcast that is helping middle adults change their minds so that they can experience more freedom. And, uh, y'all we are. This is a special episode. I ain't gonna let. This is something we've never done before. We we done got up on a day. We wasn't planning on getting up. We done. You know coordinated schedules, because we felt like we had to have this conversation right now, and so we're excited about that.
Speaker 1:Before we get into it, I just want to say thank you for listening to this show. Continue to like, share, subscribe. We really, really want you to be a part of this unlearning community. We know that there are all things we got to unlearn in order to be free, and so we want to help you do that, um, and so be sure to check out our episodes. They drop every tuesday, um, and don't keep it to yourself. Y'all, pass it along so we can continue to grow the community.
Speaker 1:Um, all right, so this is a special episode and, as you can see, I have a very special guest. Those of you that have been following us for a couple of years will remember him. He and his wife Sundra. They were on our Unlearning Marriage series not too long ago and we'll be sure to drop that episode in the comment and what we drop it in the something show notes that's the word and so that you can go back to it. It's an amazing episode and if y'all listen, man, you know this dude is dynamic. I am so, so grateful to have Mr Darnell Harris in the building. What's up, man?
Speaker 2:What's going on?
Speaker 1:Yo man Listen, Darnell, we have known each other for quite some time, but the last couple of years we've just connected in a different way. Well, I tell y'all, y'all don't know Darnell is. He is times 10 in just about everything. Like you, you, you you're time 10,.
Speaker 2:man, I don't have enough money to pay for that thing. Have enough money to pay for that thing, man like you.
Speaker 1:just you know your energy, your commitment, your love for people, your love for the Lord. The way you communicate, man, it's just like, it's just exponentially impactful and I really do appreciate that and I I'm excited to have this conversation with you. But first, how?
Speaker 2:you doing. Doing great man. Thank you for this invite. Thank you for your kind words. The feeling is mutual. I think you have something special going on here and I'm just glad to be a part of it. Glad to be a part of it and glad to be out the baseball street.
Speaker 1:Somebody, somebody, somebody say amen, oh my, because it's hot, it's hot, it's hot. We don't need all that man, that's right.
Speaker 1:Oh man, no, that's good. So let me catch y'all up, right? So if y'all haven't been paying attention, this actually is a special episode. This is outside of a series. This is outside of a normal segment. I, I'm a huge gospel music fan. I'm a huge gospel, so much so that any other genre I I know just enough to be dangerous. But I, I can embarrass myself. I did this the other day with my husband. We were out and we were, uh, uh, I think we're on bill street. We were at bb king's with some stuff and I said, oh, that's, and I named this artist. I thought it was. He looked at, like that's not who that is. I was like what you mean? Like yes, it is, no, it's not. And I was like, oh, shoot, he's right.
Speaker 1:But, like if, if I just I kind of missed a lot of kind of know in other genres because I was so ten toes down and gospel, grown up, church kid, all this stuff. And so, for those of you that aren't familiar, isaac Cree has a podcast and there was an episode from the manager of Tribal Records, or not, manager, he's the owner of Tribal Records and he managed Maverick City and he's kind of the one who brought them, uh, to to life. His name was norman and I can't, I can't, I can't say his last name.
Speaker 2:I was gonna ask you what it was. So if you can't say it, we're just gonna call him no he's gonna call it norman, okay, okay, okay, norman, uh.
Speaker 1:and so norman was on there and this man, he, he rocked, he rocked the shit man, he rocked it and, um, I mean he really, his comments and all the things that people were saying, I mean it's just really kind of uh created this conversation. That's really really interesting. And so it's like. So Darnell and I were actually on the phone and he brought it up to me and we started talking and I was like yo, this would be a really good episode to do, right, this would be a great podcast episode. So we said let's jump on this weekend and do it. So I'm excited. So, all right. So, first of all, so that people know where you're coming from in this conversation, just just give it a little bit of how you connect to this narrative.
Speaker 2:anyway, Well, church kid grew up Pentecostal in Chicago, illinois, started singing probably around the age of seven in church and been kind of doing it my whole entire life, been worship director, worship pastor, youth pastor, minister of music drummer, background singer, worship leader and conference worship leader. I have done it for free, I've done it I got paid, I've been on all spectrums of it and so I think that the Lord has graced me and given me knowledge throughout the years, to speak about certain things in regards to worship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so today, y'all, what we're really going to do is we're going to unpack what this idea of unlearning worship a little bit and, uh, particularly in the context of industry, like, I think cause I think that's kind of the undergirding you know what I'm saying Like tension that a lot of people are feeling is the conversation that that was had on the podcast with Norman was so industry heavy, Um, and I think a lot of people were feeling like where's the, where's the spiritual context in this? Where does that come into play? And I'd love to just start off with just your general thoughts on the conversation. And look, we'll drop the link to the podcast so you can listen to it for yourself if you want to listen to it.
Speaker 1:I think it's a very brilliant podcast, I think it's interesting and I think it's worth listening to. So if you haven't listened to it, it's a. I think it's a very brilliant podcast, I think it's interesting, Um, and I think it's worth listening to. So if you haven't listened to it, we'll make sure to drop it in in our, in our, in our show notes. But just what were your original? What were?
Speaker 2:your immediate thoughts about it. Like what, what did you think? Well, first of all, um, I think that a lot of the things that Norman was sharing I didn't necessarily disagree with. It was just something about his, his posture that kind of irritated me a little bit, if I'm just being honest. But the things that he was saying for the most part I agree with from an industry point.
Speaker 2:From an industry point, I think that for me it's like I was protected or in my mind, I'm like man, those that do worship and listen to this.
Speaker 2:I didn't want it to push them to now feel that if what it is the Lord has given them is not making headlines, is not bringing in grammys, is not bringing in all these likes on social media or downloads, that it's not valuable.
Speaker 2:So I think the main thing that norman did I got of what he was saying was the value in how he marketed Maverick City and Travis Green, and all the streams and all the sponsors and Grammys came from the way that he did it, and I'm trying to make that the way that everybody should do it, and it just made me just kind of feel a way about that, because I do believe that God calls worship leaders, and not just worship leaders in any spectrum of corporate America. God calls those of us that are are professing his, his Christ and his lordship to that market, and so there is a place for you know, gaining money and like all of that. I just man. I think the danger is the line between man who's leading you, like, are you being led by the lord or are you being led by the marketplace? And that is that's something that we got to talk about, like what is, what's the driving force behind what it is that you're after, because I believe that sooner or later those two worlds will collide.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you will have to make a decision on which side you're on. Like do I make this money against God, specifically telling me, hey, I don't want you to do that or hey, I want you to do this. That may not get you worldly fame, but it'll get you a diamond in your crown in heaven if you will.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think what is your who's leading you? I think that's the. That is a major question. What's leading you? The world, or the marketplace, or God? How do you, how do you even determine that? How would, if somebody was, was listening to, like, like, wait, and this, this obviously doesn't just um, that question isn't just relevant for this particular context. I mean, that is, that is a question, uh, for anyone who calls themselves a believer. But, um, how, what would be the steps in going back to check your motive? Because I think a lot of times and I can agree with what you're saying with the podcast, I I do agree with his assessment of the industry. I think he's right, I think strategically, he was, he's straight on, he's dead on, like and and you see it working and nobody can argue with that. Um, and I think that the question is like what's the motive, what's the goal? Um, and there and how, how do you kind of assess personally what? What are some questions you ask yourself to determine who's leading you?
Speaker 2:Absolutely man, jesus you ask yourself to determine who's leading you. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Man.
Speaker 2:Jesus. So while you were talking, man, I had two things that I thought about. One, I thought about Genesis, I thought about creation, I thought about Adam and Eve and the instruction that they were given that they could eat of any tree except for this particular tree. That was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and that always kind of messed with me, because the question that I always had was why is good in there? Why is it just not the knowledge of evil? So what is this thing about? Good? That is a problem too, and so that's because good can be good, but not God, and God didn't want Adam and Eve to wrestle with what is good or what is not good or what is evil. He just wants them to have a relationship with him.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so if we go then to Romans 12 and 1, it says present your body, live in sacrifice holy and acceptable unto God, which is your, it says in ESV spiritual worship, acceptable unto God, which is your. It says in ESV spiritual worship, verse two and be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind that you may be able to prove what is good.
Speaker 2:And so if you're not presenting your body, your gifts, the things that God has given you unto him, you won't be able to prove what's good, and so something that may seem good for someone else may not be necessarily good for you. It's all depending upon where God is leading you. And so if we use David as an example of someone coming from being a shepherd which was not looked upon as a grand job back then in the Bible days, all the way up to 20 years later being king of all of Israel, he did not want to be king. There's nowhere where you see David chasing the kingdom. He was actually called to the kingdom by God. So the first question I feel like those of us as worship leaders specifically like are you doing what it is that God is calling you to do, or are you chasing something because you saw somebody else do it and it was successful? There was a party put together and you had, and you had Samuel coming to Jesse's house. David didn't know about the party and he wasn't invited to the party. David was busy doing the will of God and God invited him to the party and anointed him to be king. He wasn't chasing the kingdom, and I think that's the danger with the podcast for me.
Speaker 2:I didn't want people to get this seed of chase for the marketplace and disregard the chase for the kingdom, and it's like we should be chasing after God, like David is in that, in that with those, uh, the sheep, and he's playing the harp and he's doing his thing. Like he's doing his thing and he's content. Like he don't even know. He don't even know what he don't know, like it wasn't no, wasn't no social media back then. He didn't know a party. He didn't even know they were getting together. He didn't know any of that stuff. All he knew is man, I'm here and I'm doing the will of God. I'm at this church and I'm leading worship and I'm doing the will of God. It's 15 members, it's 20 members, it's 500, whatever, wow. But God has me here and I'm doing the will of God and if and when God wants me to be bigger or on a bigger platform or whatever, god moves me, it's not my chase.
Speaker 1:Okay, All right. So you said so much. I think there's a key thing here and I don't you didn't emphasize it, but I want to pull it out because you said I don't want people to hear this and think something. That here part is so crucial, right, what, what, what voices are we listening to to help us to stay in a, to help us to not chase? And I think, like my, my, my question, my question is um, how, how do you, how would you help people to discern who you, what, who, and what you listen to?
Speaker 1:Because the, the, the, it's, it's what, what comes into your, your, your psyche, through your hearing. Whether we and I think this is something as as, as, as Jesus followers, as people that are, as people that consider themselves to be spiritual people we disregard sometimes the power of voice, Even though your heart might be right and your intentions might be right. We disregard the power of a voice, and it's not enough to want to do the right thing, you have to position yourself to do it. Um, and I think that when, when you're saying, like you know, David was, David was, he wasn't, he wasn't even paying attention to other stuff, right, he wasn't even, he was just, he was just head down doing what he did, and that's just what. Man, how, how reasonable is it to do that today? Like, how do you even do that?
Speaker 2:It's so hard because social media has connected us to the whole entire world and now there's this comparison of where I am and what I'm doing versus where the top artists or the top songwriters and what they're doing, and I just think it's hard for people to understand that whatever the Lord tells you to do is a hundred percent successful the minute you do it, the very minute that you do it with no likes and no shares and no strings, because God told me to do it and I did it it's a hundred percent successful.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Because now that's my part and his part the Bible says that he is the Lord of the harvest. He is the one that determines how big and when and where, and I think when we get involved in trying to make something happen, that it's just we're out of the will of God. The question that you asked about the voices and what we hear David wrote Psalms, chapter one. There's a verse in there that says blessed is the man that standeth, not in the counsel of the ungodly.
Speaker 2:And so there, it is right there, godly. And so there it is right there. We have to judge righteously the things that we hear against the word of God, which is a whole other thing. Like you got to know the word of God, we have to get in it. We have to let that be the thing that leads us and guides us, and not the success or fame of the world, because there's going to be things that the world do that's going to be successful. I love David. I'm probably going to talk about him all day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, david, when he became king, david wanted the presence of God to be central to the worship in Jerusalem. To be central to the worship in Jerusalem. Under Saul's kingship, the Ark of the Covenant, which represented the presence of God, was in Shiloh, which was the capital and the military base. So under Saul, for 20 years, the Ark of the Covenant was only really brought in during a time of a war or something going on where they needed God to step in and help. Correct, but far as being central to the worship it was not.
Speaker 2:And so, david, the first thing he did when he became king was he wanted to bring the Ark of the Covenant in Jerusalem. So he put this big parade together and the Bible says that he put the ark on a cart and brought it in. Only problem is instructions in Exodus says that the Ark of the Covenant should not be carried on the cart, but it should actually be carried by four Levites, their showers. And so David wanted the presence of God, but he neglected the way of God. David wanted the presence of God, but he neglected the way of God. And Uzzah trying to do a good thing. The oxen that was pulling the cart stumbled, looked like the ark was going to fall, uzzah puts his hands on it and Uzzah dies.
Speaker 1:When I read that man it was like wow, because I know being a Jew.
Speaker 2:They knew david knew the commandment of the lord, he knew that that was the wrong way. Yeah, yeah, to carry, yeah. So I was asking myself why did he carry it that way? And so if you go to first samuel I believe it's chapter six the children of Israel are in a war, they're losing. Somebody says, hey, go get the ark. They get the ark, they continue to lose. And the Philistines steal the ark, they take it over to their land, they have it for seven months. They're experiencing all of this devastation because God is like giving them tumors and like all these things. And they said we got to give this to them. And so they built a cart, wow, wow, put the art on. And so when I read that I was like, oh, my God. So they got the idea of carrying it that way from their enemy or from the world.
Speaker 2:Wow, instead of, and because they saw it work, come on wait, because they saw it work.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, they saw it work.
Speaker 2:I mean, no, god said, do it this way, but they did it that way, and it's not. I mean, no, god said, do it this way, but they did it that way, and it actually, man, it's easier, it's easier that way. And so they were standing in the council of the ungodly and somebody lost their life. So, yeah, man, that's okay, that hit.
Speaker 1:That hit as deeply as it did the first time. You said it because when we talked on the phone the first time, you unpacked this for me and after that thing hit and it hit the same. That's how you know it ain't you, ain't you ain't talking about nothing, but what's in the word? So it's like it's not even, it's just it ain't you. I mean, you just, you're just unpacking scripture yeah, um god, there's so much in that, darnell, you know that's there's so much in there I honestly, I don't even know where to go.
Speaker 1:It's so so. So I think that you know this idea of I don't know, I think I want to go here and it worked.
Speaker 1:It works. We talk about this. I don't know about you. I hear this a lot. The principles of the Bible work, regardless of whether or not you believe in and have given your life over to the Lord. The principles work and I have a lot of. I say a lot. There are people in my life who, I would say, have more, have a respect for the Bible and the word because of the principles in it, Not necessarily because of their commitment to the Lord Right, and because the principles work, Like it works now, Like you cannot deny that right. We see it all the time. It is hard. It's hard to, I think, for a lot of people and it's hard for a lot of people to want more of god when getting a little bit of him gets you to where you want to go oh my god, yeah, you know what I mean yeah, it's you kind of like I don't why I was so I.
Speaker 1:Like I'll get it. Yeah, and I think this is, you know, ultimately, why the real transformative nature is not a. Only the Holy Spirit can do that, like that is and that's not something we can do.
Speaker 1:There's no strategy for that. You just you got to let God do the work. That's why you know you witness and God works. That's it. You got to let God do the work. That's why you know you witness and God works. That's it. You can't make a thing work when it comes to transforming somebody's heart. But what I think is, again, that mentality is still very prevalent amongst people who have given their heart to God, like David man after God's own heart. God calls him that. So it is.
Speaker 1:You know, I think and again, we can't pretend like we're not susceptible to accepting less of who God is in total in order to experience the success of his principles and the success of things that do work Right and I love and good stuff. I think that that is, you know, we've heard it before in a million different ways. You know, the hardest thing to the thing, that is the most difficult for people is not necessarily always good and bad, uh, but it's good in God and it's, it's there. But there is a difference, and I think what you, what you, what you brought out as far as the story of Adam and Eve, um, that I don't know, that I've ever thought about it quite like that before, like what's wrong with good Um and why, you know.
Speaker 1:I think the other thing is the is not knowledge. I, the knowledge piece is the thing that always hit me Right, because I like to know stuff. You know, I liked it. I liked the idea of knowing Um, um and I don't really like the idea of not knowing, like I'm gonna ask questions until I get to where I want to get um. But god and his wisdom understands that there is a level of knowledge that you don't need because it it will. It's not because you want it to, it will it will bring you further from me it.
Speaker 1:Good knowledge, bad knowledge. You know too much. You don't have the capacity to handle that kind of information. Back to what we're consuming, right? What are the things that we're hearing? What's getting into our system, what are the experiences we're allowing to drive us and?
Speaker 1:drive our decisions and the importance of being discerning in that like, and especially in a world where consumption is almost impossible not to run into unless you cut yourself off completely right from the world which you know, which some people do, like some people do, uh, but then there's all kinds of reasons not to do that.
Speaker 1:So I don't know, man, like, I think, um, man, that that, that, that, that success factor, that it works factor, is tough, it's tough for people. And how, how do you, how have you, in your journey, uh, as a worship leader, as somebody who has, let's be honest, darnell, you, you have a gift, man, I mean, I done heard you and, uh, you know, work with you, heard you, like, you are incredible in a lot of different ways. Right, you have a gift for leadership. You have a gift for you. You know, you are incredible in a lot of different ways. You have a gift for leadership. You have a gift for you're a musician, you're incredibly talented, all this stuff. I'm going to say this you could, I think, if you employed some strategies, you could be in a different place.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right In the industry, and you don't have to say yes or no to that, you don't have to agree, you don't have to. I'm just saying what I've heard and what I've experienced Darnell could be that dude, you know. But you've chosen to do something, you've chosen to move differently. Um, how, how, how? What is your personal tension sometimes that you have to? You know, I'm saying yeah, two things, man.
Speaker 2:I was 18, getting ready to turn 19. My grandparents were having their 50th anniversary dinner in chicago, so I was living in in Memphis at this time. I probably had been in Memphis a couple years. I went back up to Chicago for that dinner. I'm in the back. I'm like what's going on? There's this guy that gets up and he's speaking. He stops his sermon and says you, I need you. So he's pointing at me, me, it's about 250 people in the room. I'm like what? So I walk up there and he closes his eyes and he says I see you in the studio. I see you writing music.
Speaker 2:I had no song, I had didn't do that, though. I see you just writing music on the spot, like all of this stuff, right, right. And then he says but I also see God strengthening your, your discernment, because it's going to be people that try to connect themselves to you just based on what God has placed in. And so I never forgot that and it and it and it. It has given me like a godly fear when it comes to because I've had opportunities to do a lot of things, like I had some of my friends that sing like on with us now and the level of things that I give away in regards to doing this or doing that. I just, yeah, I just don't want any part of it, man, man, I just want what God wants for me.
Speaker 2:When I first started singing, I was getting a little small check and the Lord was like sign the back of it and put it in the offering. And so I did that for years, like before I even started making any money singing, because and I think that God was trying to To just feel me a certain way and not not have the drive of my heart for what I do Be money Right, I thought about this. This makes me crazy. I don't know. I'm going to. I want to tell you that. I just feel like I have to tell you the movie the Karate Kid. So it's two of them. There's an old, one, and there's a new one.
Speaker 2:I love both of them, but the new one with Jackie Chan and Will Smith's son. There's a scene in there, man, so Will Smith's son, Jaden his name is Jray in the movie. He's being bullied, and so he wants to learn Kung Fu. And so he's being bullied. And so he wants to learn Kung Fu. And so he's being bullied one day where they're beating him up and Jackie Chan, Mr Hung, comes and saves him. And he sees that Mr Hung knows all of this Kung Fu. And so he asks Mr Hung, can you train him? And he says yes.
Speaker 2:And so Mr Hung observed earlier in the movie that Dre would always come in and throw his jacket on the ground and his mom was screaming at him hey, pick your jacket up, pick your jacket up. He would always give her attitude. And so the first day of training for Kung Fu he had him outside. He put this little little stick up and he told him take his jacket off, hang it up, throw it on the ground. And so for weeks and days, and days, and days he had him doing this whole thing with the jacket. And so Dre finally gets just fed up. You're supposed to be teaching me Kung Fu, You're not teaching me Kung Fu. I get it. I get it. I was disrespectful to my mama and this stuff. I'm going to go.
Speaker 2:The reason why you only got one student is because you don't even know how to teach somebody. And so he's about to storm out. Mr Hong says Drake, come here. And then he tells him put your jacket on. And as he goes to put the jacket on, he snatches the jacket from him. He says put your jacket on. And so he's doing this, he's showing him, like all these things, and then he says to him Kung Fu is in everything you do. It's not?
Speaker 2:just it's not just the thing that you're trying to do to fight or to defend yourself. It has to be in everything that you do. And so, as a worshiper, it has to be in everything that you do. And God takes us through things in life to form it in everything that we do. And sometimes we are Dre storming out because we don't see how this connects to me being back, because all I want to do is be able to defend myself against these folks that's beating me. All I want to do is be able to defend myself against these folks that beat me. All I want to do is be able to pay my bills.
Speaker 2:All I want to do is be able to be seen for what you know I feel like I'm good at and God is like that's all cool, but I'm not just after you doing something well, I'm after you being a worshiper, not just leading it, not just singing about it, but actually being it. It forms you into something else, and so that's what I've tried to suggest and it's not easy, don't get me wrong Like it's not easy at all, and I've tried to like model that and I've tried to let that be. You know my heart. I'm not after fame or money although I do make money for singing and music and I do other things but I just don't want that to be the thing that I'm after. I want to always make sure that I'm going after God and his will.
Speaker 1:If you enjoyed part one of this conversation, tune in next week for the conclusion of this two-part series. Thank you once again for listening to the Unlearned Podcast. We would love to hear your comments and your feedback about the episode. Feel free to follow us on Facebook and Instagram and to let us know what you think. We're looking forward to the next time when we are able to unlearn together to move forward towards freedom. See you then.
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