The UnlearnT Podcast
The UnlearnT Podcast is designed to help you gain the courage to change your mind about things you never thought you would change your mind about. Our hope is that you will begin to move towards a life of freedom after hearing stories from individuals who have chosen to unlearn some things in their lives.
The UnlearnT Podcast
What You’re Leadership Style? Unlearning Autocratic Leadership
The autocratic leadership style, often misunderstood but sometimes necessary, provides clear command and control when building something new or navigating through crisis.
• Autocratic leadership is marked by a self-appointed, self-governing style where the leader maintains full control
• This leadership style produces explosive results when there's no time for democratic process
• Steve Jobs exemplifies a successful autocratic leader who maintained high standards while revolutionizing technology
• Autocratic leaders are typically highly skilled, influential, and charismatic individuals who inspire others to follow their vision
• Understanding the three types of leaders—builders, optimizers, and fixers—helps autocratic leaders know when to pivot
• Autocratic leaders must learn to transition from doing everything themselves to documenting processes and empowering others
• The apostle Paul demonstrates how autocratic leaders can pivot to coaching roles rather than maintaining constant control
• Partnerships between visionaries and optimizers create sustainable organizations
• Distinguishing between vision (what's essential) and preference (what's personal) allows autocratic leaders to let go appropriately
• Self-awareness and recognizing the current needs of your organization are crucial for effective leadership
Like, share, and subscribe to build our community! Tell a friend to tell a friend about these critical conversations that can help you gain the courage to change your mind and experience more freedom.
hello everybody and welcome once again to the unlearned podcast. I am your host, ruth abigail aka ra what's up, friends?
Speaker 1:it's your girl, jaquita and this is the podcast that is helping you gain the courage to change your mind so that you yes, you can experience more freedom. And we are in a series talking about leadership Leadership All different styles, guys, all different styles. If you're a leader and you've listened to this podcast, you probably are Then you lean into one of these seven styles of leadership. So each episode we're talking about a particular style, and so, if you haven't checked out our last one, go ahead and do that. Democratic, democratic leadership Really, really good, and we just kind of break down what that is. So in each one of these, we're going to break down what it is kind of, what the strengths and weaknesses are, and then, when you need to pivot to a different style, my Lord, kind of what the strengths and weaknesses are, and then, when you need to pivot to a different style, healthy leaders know how to pivot.
Speaker 1:My Lord, and so, queda, what we, what we, oh, wait, hold on Before we do that we're going to do, we're going to make sure that you like, share, subscribe, right.
Speaker 2:Like share subscribe.
Speaker 1:We want you to to. You know I'm saying you want you to spread the word. You know we want you to build the community. We want you to not keep this, this, uh, these, these critical conversations right To yourself. You help somebody else.
Speaker 2:Share, okay, share. Don't keep it to yourself. Tell a friend to tell a friend.
Speaker 1:All right, that's right.
Speaker 2:Because we're building a community. Okay, and we don't have the leadership style. We don't operate in the leadership style that we're going to be talking about today.
Speaker 1:That's not what we're trying to do. That ain't really who we are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think it's important to note that, you guys, when we're thinking about what we're going to talk about in different seasons of the podcast and in different things that we're doing, we're really considering, you know, what's going on in your life and our lives, what's relevant, what's timely and how we can really share out information that's really going to help propel us all to the next level. Okay, and this particular day, this particular topic on today, I think, is going to be eye-opening for some of us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think, you know, in our pre-conversation we were just like man, this is, it's a little bit deeper than we realized. And so today we are talking about the autocratic leadership style. Okay, and I, I really think, because when you think about the autocratic leadership style honestly, when you look if you were to go on, like Google and type who are some examples of autocratic leaders. The list of leaders might be a little scary.
Speaker 1:Okay, not a company you want to identify with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like you know, like the first person up is like Hitler and you're like I don't want to identify with Hitler, you know, but I think it's going to be important. If you have ever founded something, if you have ever began something, if you consider yourself to be a visionary in any way right, if you've ever had to lead a team through an emergency moment right, you probably have at some time either used or identified with the autocratic leadership style. Okay, it's really kind of marked by leadership style that is kind of auto-think self. Right, it is a self-appointed, self-governing like leadership style. It is I'm at the top, I have the vision, I have the goals, I have the methodology and I am going to be directing and instructing people on how to carry out my vision. The vision is here, okay, it lives here, and I am going to be communicating and I'm going to have high expectations and a high level of precision of how this vision is supposed to be manifested, because what's in here should look like what I'm asking everyone to do, right, so it's really marked by a leader that kind of is the only decision maker, somebody who maintains full control throughout their leadership, some of its impacts, right, like, as you're thinking about when you think about a leader that is kind of like at the head of it.
Speaker 2:They're making all the decisions, they're calling all the plays, they're telling everyone what to do and they are not really asking for input. Correct, right? That can be a little stifling, right? Because not only are they not asking for input, they're also asking you to do things that in the ways that they would do it. Yeah, right, and they're not really here to explore your development or your particularities or your gifts, your talents. What you bring to the table, it's, hey, whatever you got used to do, what I asked you to do in the way that I asked you to do it, right. So it can be a little stifling sometimes, and sometimes it can affect morale, right, but it is very effective in the beginning of a thing, also in helping to navigate crisis, right. So, again, autocratic leadership it is you have one person who is the authority and who is the decision maker and who maintains control of both building and executing vision.
Speaker 1:So funny story Well, a little funny, so. Example of autocratic leadership in a way that is not Hitler. Okay, so important. Yeah so. So when I went to Germany with a group of people in 2014, and you know if you've ever traveled internationally, and you know if you've ever traveled internationally which I've only done one time like flown internationally, so you kind of have to be prepared for anything, and so we were at the airport super duper early. There was a very long line for security. We thought we were having enough time. Of course, none of us speak the language, so we're all kind of like you know, Ah, expecadoitsch.
Speaker 1:Okay, All right, coita was to live in germany, guys.
Speaker 1:I did so but but we, you know, so we're, we're, we're going through it and there's a point where, uh, our plane, we were kind of getting final calls right on the plane and, um, they were calling for calling for final boarding and we were way back in security and, um, this was, I think we were in paris. I want to say, um, and so this was our, um, this was our flight. No, I'm lying, we were in germany and we were headed to paris to get a, um, uh, get a get on the flight back to, uh, chicago to get in the flight. Yeah, so we had, like, we had a schedule. We could not afford to miss this flight.
Speaker 1:So jill, um, who's, uh, my partner crime and angel street right, um, we, um, she was kind of leader of the trip and and Jill put on her autocratic hat in a moment, she went and she basically bulldozed, literally bulldozed, and Jill is a small human, okay, so she's like that, she has to. She made her way and she was like come on, y'all, we making this, we making this flight, and she bulldozed through the crowd, making people upset. We all were a little upset, you know, we were upset, but then we could tell people were annoyed. Some people were cool. Some people were like what are they doing? Of course we're American, nobody likes Americans and so we're running, we're going through, and she just demands that we come to our plane. This was necessary, right, we had to have somebody to take that. She said I brought y'all here, I'm getting us home. And she did that, right, and we were fine, right.
Speaker 1:But that is so to the point that Coita was making. Autocratic leadership is necessary in some areas. Right, that was a crisis moment. Somebody had to take charge. We didn't have time to sit around and take a vote. We didn't have time to sit around and think through our feelings of bothering people. We didn't have time to do any of that. We had to do something and we had to do it now, and somebody had to lead us through that. When you have those kinds of moments, you gotta have that kind of tenacity as a leader, and it will often be be in that, in that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think something important to note is that most autocratic leaders they don't get there because you know they halfway do anything Like they are highly skilled, they are highly influential, they're usually brilliant, right Like they. They have, like just any any immense amount of gift, gifting and personality and charisma, right, our vision are like like just know how. Yeah, right, knowledge, wisdom, skill, like they are packed full of gifting right. Which is why people are like hey, yeah, let them be the leader, yeah, let them do it. And you know, I think you know I love that you use like that idea of like an emergency, like hey, like we got to get. Like this is this is not optional. Autocratic leadership is great in situations where there's not a lot of options. Like hey, we got to go my way because we don't have time for y'all to diddly that, right, okay, we don't have time for y'all to be whimsical and tiptoeing through the tulips, right, all right.
Speaker 1:Everybody's voice is not relevant in this conversation.
Speaker 2:No, because if we, in the democratic style, if we take a moment to say hey, what do you think we should do, what do you think we should do, and what do you think we should do, why don't we combine them all together?
Speaker 1:You missed the plane.
Speaker 2:We're back in the hotel, we're stuck in Germany, and so there is so much autocratic leadership can oftentimes produce explosive results, because they are the ones that are making the dynamic changes. They are making huge moves. You know, this is not a progressive play. This is the thing we're about to do is about the change.
Speaker 1:That's right. Yep, it's not. I like what you said the scope of the entire world. It's not progressive. That's really good. It's not. It's explosive world. It's not progressive.
Speaker 2:That's really good. It's not progressive, it is explosive. That's very good. And there are moments you know, even when you look through history. That's why and I hate that most of our autocratic examples we do have one that's not as negative but most of our autocratic examples are like Hitler. You know again. Napoleon, yeah, napoleon Right. Stalin, you know like. Yeah, you know like, but they had an explosive impact on history. It's not like George Washington who, along and along and along, built something. You know. It is like this person came out of nowhere and demanded that society change. Yeah, and society was like wow, okay.
Speaker 1:We're changing.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying, and so I think that it is.
Speaker 2:We have to be mindful of how we are influencing systems yeah, of how we are influencing systems, and you have to know, if you are a person, who, this is your primary style, right, this is your primary leadership style, and you often find yourself easily like coming up with visions that are gonna be have an explosive impact, right?
Speaker 2:I'm hoping that our conversation today can give some insight on how do we continue to not just lead teams through these explosive, dynamic kind of like ideas and situations that you want to build, but how do you pivot in your leadership, because there's an explosion and then there has to be somebody who's going to maintain it. Right, and sometimes you are the person to maintain it, and sometimes you have to know how to hand it off to the next person so you can go build something else that's going to completely blow up. You know what I'm saying, and so, when you have this leadership style, you have to be aware of what your influence and what kind of your commanding presence is doing in the example of a leader who had an autocratic style and but it was.
Speaker 1:It was very, it was very effective for for making Apple the way it is Right. He, he had very high standards. There was not a you didn't get a vote on how things were going If it didn't. If it, if it wasn't exactly how he wanted it, you didn't get a vote on how things were going If it didn't, if it, if it wasn't exactly how he wanted it. You're doing it again Like we're not we're like. He was highly creative, highly innovative, um, and he, he was a genius in the marketing field. He understood how to, how to, how to how to say things, how to make people, um, kind of connect to the products. He understood all of that very well, better than anybody else, I would dare say, in modern history. He's probably top three, right, and what he did.
Speaker 2:Hey, he got movies.
Speaker 1:You know, once they start making movies about you know what I'm saying Like you, you, you you, you, you were somebody, you were in a good space and so you know, I think that, like if you, if we have to kind of point to someone who didn't wasn't like a, it wasn't a dictator who's trying to, you know, do a new world order that was going to exclude human people, you know he's a great example, ever right. You can see, there's a difference between somebody who has helpers and somebody who has a team and I think, queda, what you were saying earlier, as far as I find it. I will say it like this I think it's hard to pair an autocratic leader with a team. I don't think autocratic leaders have teams. I think they have people who help and team.
Speaker 1:I don't think autocratic leaders have teams, I think they have people who help, and now I don't think they always realize that, right, well, that's right and that's my point. I think you can't be autocratic and have a team, because team is about working together and an autocratic leader is not really interested in working with you. He or she wants you working for them, and so that that's a, that's a mindset shift and at certain times and seasons of certain things, that's necessary. Brand new concept. The way that the, the, the, the way that that can.
Speaker 1:That computer worked at the time was different than any other thing that was happening. He wanted it to look different and feel different and all this stuff. It was not the way IBM was doing it. It was not the way Microsoft, mike, you know well, microsoft was software, so we're not going to go there. But his, his hardware was so different, it was beautiful, it was a whole, was a whole different you know field, and so you look at transferring from, you know um, like computers, to then phones, to then watches, to, then you know uh, uh, all these different things, right, so, I think, a very good example of an autocratic leadership style. But somebody who wasn't a bad human, tyrant, tyrant, dictator, right, what was it?
Speaker 1:Steve Jobs, and you know, for Steve Jobs is a good example, because Steve Jobs had a very clear vision of what he was wanting Apple to be, what he wanted his products to look like, and so he was insistent on not going beneath that standard. In his mind, it's like this is what it has to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the standard was his vision.
Speaker 1:Was his vision right, and so it was the uniqueness of that. If you're not familiar with Steve Jobs, one of the unique things about his journey is that by the time we, we, we got the computer right I think it was the Lisa Um and then you had all these different types right. He, he had, he, he was a part of the company for a time and then he left the company and I don't remember if he got fired or he left. I feel like they fired, like it was a disagreement. So you had they fired. It was a disagreement, it was some clashing and part of it was because he did not like the direction that it was going and he wanted to take it a different direction. Right, thank you all. Right, so my husband just told me the board voted him out.
Speaker 1:He's over here listening to the conversation we appreciate you so the board the board voted voted him out because they had a difference of opinion of where the comfort home was going, but then they brought him back. They brought him back.
Speaker 1:Let me tell you something but the and so it's like I think there's a lot to like. They brought him back and then he, from then until I think he, he willingly left, um, that's when we get, uh, all these different um, wait, wait, when I say willing to lift, he didn't die before he. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be insensitive, I'm just making sure I'm right, sensitive, I'm just making sure I'm right. Did he pass before he retired? Got it okay, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, thank you, producer joy, yeah, his health, his health caught up with him. I'm not trying to be insensitive, I'm just trying to get my facts straight listen, you gotta get the story around someone's death.
Speaker 1:You really gotta get yeah, I don't want to get that wrong.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm saying like I'm trying to get that wrong but, but throughout, when he is after he came back, is is when we we get all the like big, innovative things that he did when we went basically from computer to phone to, you know, ipod to um, or computer to iPod to phone, to like iPad, right, and now, like these are things that he really put into place. Um, that doesn't happen by consensus, that doesn't happen by getting a vote. That happens by listening to someone's vision and executing on his behalf, and so we see the growth of Apple as a great company, as a company that has a cult following.
Speaker 2:I am one of them, um, and you know, I mean, I'm just not interested in I mean, I have the products now and I appreciate you know, but I was, I was an android user for a while until my, my friends started having children and they were like you're gonna mess up the facetime things and I was like I'm saying like, but see even that, like those are things that he, he understood, like he like he just understood those things and so, um.
Speaker 1:So yeah, if you want to think about that like you, there are moments and seasons in in, uh, organizations and companies where that kind of leadership style is necessary for the growth and for the identity of a company.
Speaker 1:The question is, if you realize, though and Apple started to plateau after he was no longer in the picture, and even to decline a little bit and I don't, I don't want to, we're not, we're not like business analysts, so I'm not, I'm not going to speculate too much here, but I do think that a big reason for that is, when you have that kind of leadership style, you don't often pass those things on. They live in you, and when you're no longer there, it's no longer there, so when he has moved on, now, the leadership has not. It was not like there was no encouragement to kind of catch what he had and keep it going. It was like, no, I don't need you to, I need you to just follow me, just follow me, just follow me, just follow me, and there's no multiplication, there's no, there's no sharing of anything, and so that innovative spirit kind of left with him and you can see that in the way the company kind of went.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I think a couple of things that, again, if you are identifying with this leadership style one, there's nothing wrong. I mean, there are things that need to be adapted and you need to pivot from in this leadership style at different seasons, but it is okay if this is kind of like a primary place that you sit. But there are some things that I think that you have to realize. One you know, like when you talked about him getting voted out, and I think autocratic leaders have to know you will face some adversity. You will face adversity because we don't really live in a society where people, where we're going to follow one person for too long right, like you, you're going to, like you being the seat of vision and innovation and everything comes from me is not sustainable. It's not sustainable for the growth of an organization and it's not sustainable for you as a person. You know I hate to bring this example up, but the example that I thought of when we were kind of talking through this episode was when you look back at slavery. Okay, you know, like a lot of those a lot. You know, when I studied that I did a. I did a lot of like black history courses when I was in divinity school, like African-American religious courses and just American history. You know, like a lot of those slave owners went crazy, because maintaining that sense of control and that sense of all the ideas and all the privilege and all the power comes from me, it is not sustainable for you as a person and you will look back.
Speaker 2:The other example that I thought of was Thanos. You will look back, you know, like Thanos in Infinity War and in Avengers Endgame and the Avengers franchise, you know Thanos was like I have the vision, you know, and what we need to do to maintain the universe is wipe out half of y'all and this is going to solve everything, all the problems. Because I think that autocratic leadership style gets really focused on ideals and ideas and concepts and agendas and mission and purpose, and not always people. Because anytime you are trying to build something, you don't always really think through process, consider how it's really going to impact people or how people are really what, or how people are really going to, or how people are really going to think through or be impacted by your idea. You're just thinking this is a great idea.
Speaker 2:So Thanos was like hey, wipe out half the people and we will now have a better world. And they're like hey, you're not killing my family, my brothers, my sisters, you're not killing half the world. And so there becomes this war of ideas, and I feel like autocratic leaders may often find themselves in that position where you you, you're an autocratic leader because you believe in your ideas, you believe in your dreams and your visions. What do you do when other people don't? And I think that's where the pivot and the adaptation has to begin.
Speaker 1:Um so, speaking of Thanos, could you raise your wrist real quickly? Y'all are so silly, because I didn't see it until 2019.
Speaker 2:This is bananas.
Speaker 1:Because hold on, because we have the time. Stone Hold on, we have the power.
Speaker 2:Stone, oh my gosh, we have the space stone.
Speaker 1:When I tell you that it's dumb. I'm just saying like, hold on, turn around, let me see if something else Hold on, what's the other one?
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, we have the.
Speaker 1:Mind Stone Well, you got them. You got them. That is great, that's bananas.
Speaker 2:That is fantastic. I will tell you, I willed my power for good.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And I'd like to share. Oh, I'm so glad Producer know good and well. And the funny thing is I had just taken it off, because I take my jewelry on and off a lot and when I saw that I was like let me put it back on so they can make this little crazy point.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's funny. Thank you for that. That was great Hilarious.
Speaker 2:I like my little bracelet, though it's cute, that's cute, it's real cute.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, just don't kill nobody. My Real cute. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just don't kill nobody. Um, so I think again, I let's let's kind of like define when, uh, really clearly define when, these when, when the autocratic leadership style is truly appropriate and you've kind of hit on it. Um, when you're building something, okay, uh, there's no room for conversation, right?
Speaker 1:Usually you're on a deadline, usually you're under a lot of pressure, usually you are trying to create something out of nothing, and so you think about how a contractor moves. A contractor tells people what they need to be doing, where they need to be going. A contractor's like this okay, you're here, you're here, you're here, I need you here, I need this done by this time, because then this person has to come in and do this. Like, there's not a whole lot of conversation and discussion. I'm not trying to get your opinion, I'm not interested in that, right, we're trying to get this thing off the ground. We're trying to build, and so, when you have that mentality, when you are building something, when there is something out of nothing, of which I have personally been a part of five teams that have done that okay, there aren't a lot of things I'm gonna call myself an expert in, and when I say expert I mean, like, having that 10,000 hours that Malcolm Gladwell talks about, um, I, I have 10,000 hours in founding things, and um, I know that that it takes um a level of confidence and clarity and, um, and clear communication right Of, not just clarity like clarity of thought and communication to get something off the ground.
Speaker 1:Um, and I also know being a part of founding teams. Everybody, like, if you're a part of a founding team, you understand that there are some things you don't get a say in, there's some things we're just going to do, right, um, and and so I think that we have to realize that, um, those, those types of leaders are crucial for the beginning, like you said, and for the founding of something, uh, for building a foundation, right, um. And if that is a season in which you're in as far as your, you know your leadership, or the season of your organization, um, the season of your, of your family, I will say this because um, uh, and and I'm, I, I'm a pivot to this real quick and quit, I'd love your thoughts on this. Um, I don't know that I'd go as far as to say, now this you're going to this this is about to be bananas.
Speaker 1:This might mess with your head a little bit, it's okay. We were talking about biblical characters and you were trying to like figure, like what there's a. Is there a biblical leader that kind of leans into this style? And I didn't say it then, but I'm going to say it now, I'm going to see what you think. I don't know if I'm fully ready to say this, but I think there are elements of this in his leadership and that's Paul.
Speaker 2:I knew you were going to say Paul. I knew it. I was sitting there and I was like she's about to say Paul.
Speaker 1:But, but? But do you understand? Like, but, okay, Like when you look at, because, because you're founding, the like, the church is being founded and is being founded, and so it wasn't just Paul, right, the apostles in general I would call them a founding team and there were decisions that they had to make that you didn't get to say it right now. They kind of they kind of they kind of did that with each other, but there was not a lot of it's like, hey, we've got to just come up with these particular guidelines of how, the how we operate as a unit, and that's just what it's gonna be like. Um, now did they? You? You're about I know you're about to push back a little bit. That's okay. No, no, what I'm gonna say is look at you.
Speaker 2:I I'm not. I'm not here to talk about the other types. I'm gonna answer to answer Paul. Okay, paul, I will say I think another distinct trait of autocratic leadership is a sense of one, a high level of excellence, a high level of, but not just excellence.
Speaker 2:What's the like values? And you know, there there's always, like, I feel, like every autocratic leader, you can like, take them and be like this was the mission, these were the values. Yeah, these were the standards. Right, high standards, high values, right, like spirit of excellence.
Speaker 2:I also think another kind of indicator of an autocratic leader is someone they usually have a high level of belief, Because you got to believe in your vision, you got to believe in your vision and you got to believe in what you're trying to accomplish.
Speaker 2:So I think there's a high level of belief and I think that there is a, a sense of inspiration, like I've. I've been inspired, I have, I have received, I know the way forward, I know the thing, and you have to be fully committed, fully convinced, because you are now going to have to go out and get other people to believe it too and then enact it. That's right. I would say I wouldn't put Paul completely as an autocratic leader because I think that he also had other people around him that he was one pouring into. But I also think that he took a lot of time to be poured into and influenced. And, yes, I would not put him fully as an autocratic leader but I can see how some of these traits from autocratic leadership because Paul, the other disciples were really kind of founding churches in places that they knew and understood Paul was going out into the Gentiles.
Speaker 1:This is where I would say I don't know. Like I said, I wouldn't classify him as an autocratic leader. So I think that, because of that right Like that, that, um, that particular nuance of his leadership, he was bringing in a once excluded people into a faith that was never intended for them, and so it was intended for them.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, but go ahead.
Speaker 1:What I mean?
Speaker 2:you know what I mean You're all welcome welcome culturally it wasn't like, let's just it culturally wasn't yes, it was okay, um, one day we're gonna have just a little debate.
Speaker 1:No, we're not. We're never gonna do that. That's actually never gonna happen. Um, and so uh only because she doesn't want it to one faith, one more, one baptism.
Speaker 1:We ain't debating on here okay, no, okay, wait, but hold on. That statement was made by paul and that was. That was a statement that he was not. I don't think he had to. He had to. Even even the apostles had to be had to come to understand that. I mean, look at the look at Peter and his revelation. He was not for the Gentiles we don't get off of this in a minute y'all, but I think this is important for those you know but like he wasn't for the Gentiles being a part of it, like, and so I'm just saying like Paul had to really like lean in hard on some things.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'll say this. No, I'll say this. I will say the apostolic call just in general. When we talk about five-fold ministry, Okay, and if anybody needs any more conversation, you know you have apostles, you have prophets, you have pastors, teachers and evangelists Apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers and evangelists Okay, Just make sure I got everybody. You know, I think that when you look at, when you look at an apostolic call just in general and I think that Paul is a wonderful example of this Like it is like everything that you were talking about, you know, like finding something that was that was not existing, and and adding structure and standards to it. I do think that's important to understand about people who have autocratic leadership styles. You are setting the framework for something.
Speaker 1:You're setting the framework, yes, and so it is important Noah building the ark.
Speaker 2:That was a precise move. Every board had a place. Building the temple, everything had a place, a position, because we are trying to enact a vision Right, and I think what Paul would say is it's not my vision.
Speaker 1:Right, it's not, and I think that's the point.
Speaker 2:And I think that that's something also that autocratic leaders have to deal with, because there is a sense and where you have to let go of it. Deal with because there is a sense and where you have to let go of it, where you have to release your control and say, even though this is an amazing vision that has been given to me from the Lord and it is indeed my assignment to carry this out, there is a sense in which you have to say this this belongs to the Lord. I'm a soldier, you know. I think that and I think that's what. That's where Paul, based off of the way that we've kind of been defining and understanding autocratic leadership, I think that's where Paul would, would, would show us how to pivot. You know, paul would say I'm a servant of the most high, I'm a soldier of the Lord.
Speaker 1:He had a healthy understanding of the most high. I'm a soldier of the Lord. He had a healthy understanding, a very healthy understanding Of what this is.
Speaker 2:The other thing I think that we can take from Paul and thank you, ruth Abigail, because I do think that, because I told you I was like there's a biblical example I'm trying to get to the other thing that we can take from Paul is is that Paul did not try to pastor all the churches, correct. Paul did not say all right, I founded you and I'm going to walk with you and I'm going to be here. Paul was like all right, we built this thing over here, now we're going over here. Now we're going over here, now we're going over here, and that is what allowed the kingdom to expand.
Speaker 2:I think where autocratic leaders will find that they can sometimes get stuck is when what they found it they're still trying to hold on to and they're like because this was my vision, this was my idea and this, this came to me and I'm the only one that can do it, I'm the only one that can da, da, da, da, da. I have to stay with it. And it's like sometimes, and I think a good, a good many of the times, there is somebody that is waiting in the folds, there is somebody that has been walking along with you. Right, there's a Timothy, there's a Silas right. There's somebody that you have you have been that that has walked with you, that agrees with the standards that, that has caught the vision, and you have to be able to toss them the ball and say, hey, I'm here for you, I got you. Say, hey, I'm here for you, I got you, I'm with you, but you have the ball now and so I started it. But you're going to maintain it.
Speaker 2:And I think that autocratic leaders they have to be able to discern a moment when it's going to be more helpful for them to allow other people, because your gifting, your gifting, is not going to inspire a team. Your gifting as an autocratic leader, it is not going to be able to galvanize and energize and develop. That's not going to be your main focus. You may be able to pivot in some ways to do that, but it is so much more beneficial if you allow the people that are actually gifted to do that, if you allow them in and give them some creative control. You don't have to share power, but you do have to pass it.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I totally agree with that, but but I yes, I think.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think in in the founding of it. You may not be sharing the founding of it. You may not be sharing it then, but you do have to pass it Like you have to. You have to say, okay, I have this thing, and then you have to pass it.
Speaker 1:So I think one of the key things here we talk about this principle all the time is self-awareness. If you, you, you as leaders, it is, it is. It is imperative that we are self-aware. It's also imperative that we are aware of the moment, so not just self-aware but you're aware of the moment you're in, and I think that when you're both of those things, you can do the kind of thing that Queda is saying. But if I'm not self-aware and I'm not aware of the moment, then all I'm going to be doing is doing what I feel like I know how to do. There are three. This isn't exclusive, but I heard this and I kind of held onto it. There are three types of leaders that you can, and I think it's relevant to this conversation.
Speaker 1:You have builders, you have optimizers and you have fixers. Builders build. They start from nothing and they come up with something right. They like whiteboards, they like just kind of wondering and thinking about ideas and coming up with stuff like that. They don't like instruction, they want to figure things out themselves, that kind of thing. Right, I'm a builder, this is where I live best. They're creative and all this stuff. You have optimizers Optimizers, the way I like to think about it maximize what the builder builds. And so they take what is there and they grow it, they scale it. These are your scalers. These are people who are good delegators. They're able to build a team. They're able to maximize what you have built.
Speaker 1:And then you have fixers. Right, fixers come in and they are crisis management people. They're like okay, things are crumbling, I'm coming to fix it. Right, they are often people who you know. These are sometimes your interim leaders, right? I've been under interim leadership before and it's like we're not ready for a more long-term leader because we have some issues we have to fix. And you have sometimes interim leaders who come in and say I don't want to be your long-term leader. I'm not an optimizer, I'm not going to scale this thing, but I can come in and tell you what's broken and we can fix it and put it back together and put it in a place where a leader can come in to be able to maximize this thing. Well, so what happens is-.
Speaker 2:I think it's interesting. Sorry, I think it's interesting because I feel like on our unlearned team, I feel like we have all of them, I feel like we have a builder, I feel like we have an optimizer and Joy is constantly fixing us. Yeah, she is.
Speaker 1:She's trying to always fix this she feels like we're broken, like she thinks we're broken people, these poor souls, terrible people, man. They need my help all the time yeah, um so, yeah, I think, I think you're right and I think the best teams have a mix of it, right, you need that, but you also need to understand and we talked about this in um, in the lion king we were talking about like a circle, like it's a circle, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah that was good. That was good.
Speaker 1:Go back to our summer series, catch that one check out summer scenes, talk about the lion king, talk about leadership as a circle, not a ladder. So, um, you, you know, we, we, we, we, we have to at some point. It's your term. We all affect each other.
Speaker 1:If you put a builder in an optimizing position, then oftentimes what you'll find is on is creating unnecessary, on creating things and putting things on top of each other just to create Cause that's what you're built to do, right? If you put a fixer in the position of a builder, oftentimes what you'll find is that you break things just to fix them, because you don't and it's not that you're trying to do that, but you're looking for a problem. If I'm looking for a problem to fix, sometimes I'll create the problem to fix, but really what you need is a builder. You need somebody who's going to build, but a fixer can't build right. If you put an optimizer in a position of fixer, then a lot of times that thing will crumble, because an optimizer really is. They're not trying to fix it, they're trying to make it better, but it's not better and I don't know what to do with it, so I'm just perpetuating what's wrong.
Speaker 2:Ruth Abigail, you better teach the people on today.
Speaker 1:So you have to understand and it's a good again, it's not exclusive and this is not like, but it's a good way, I think, to understand. When we're talking about autocratic leadership, that belongs with a particular type of leader, it belongs in a particular type of time period.
Speaker 2:That's so good.
Speaker 1:An autocratic leader can't be an optimizer. If something is needed to scale and something is needed to grow, you can't be autocratic. If you need to fix a problem, you can be autocratic there right. If you are starting something from scratch and there's no manual, you can be autocratic there, right. Again, though, each one of those has a cycle. Building is not always building. At some point you want to grow the thing you built, so you've got to move.
Speaker 1:And there has to be somebody else who an autocratic leadership style will no longer work. Right Does that?
Speaker 2:make sense. I'm sorry. No, everything on the inside of me is jumping around because I think it's so critical. I feel like I am surrounded. I am surrounded by very gifted, wonderful, amazing, beautiful visionaries and I used to feel bad. I used to be like Jaquita get some vision about yourself, sure.
Speaker 1:All right, where's your?
Speaker 2:vision daughter? Right, because I was just like Jaquita. Get some vision about yourself, sure, all right, where's your vision daughter? Right, because I was just like I was. So I mean just such a high level of respect and admiration for who they are. But I think that it is important. You know one I understand because I used to tell people I'm a great second, right, and I remember somebody got really offended that I said that and they were like why, why are you saying that you're a second? Like there, there's beauty in being a second. I was like, I know, but I'm just saying I'm a great second, but I am. What you just described was.
Speaker 2:I'm like, hey, I'm really, really good at, at, at taking an idea and blowing it up. Like, okay, we're going to take this thing and we're about to. I'm going to build movement on it, I'm going to build the team, I'm going to get morale and support, I'm going to get donations, I'm going to get whatever we need. I can do that, but I can't do that if I'm not trusted and I can't do that if the ball is not passed to me. Sure, and I think this also. I feel like I'm just getting answers, guys. Sorry, I'm having a personal moment. But you know, like I have been trying to figure out like why in some of my previous roles, why I've just why, why my season came to an end roles, why I've just why, why my season came to an end, and it's because I realized that they were not going to allow me to be, to be that number two and to galvanize and build and push forward and move forward, that they were going to hold on to tightly and, um, and I think it's so important that, autocratic leaders, you have to take a step, you have to step back from the vision and you have to see the team, you have to see who's on it, you have to know, understand and, as much as they respect your vision and your gifts, you have to know, understand and respect the people that have been following after you because they believe in your vision Absolutely.
Speaker 2:To take a moment, you have to step back, because it is only then that you will get some clarity on what the next step of the vision is. And a lot of autocratic leaders are living in the first step. They're living in the moment of building and so all they keep thinking about is we need to do this and we're not doing it. We're not doing it. We're not doing the things we said we were supposed to do. The vision is not complete, the thing is not done and you're not going to get any momentum on that because you have not fully acknowledged and empowered your people and a lot of times that acknowledgement and that empowerment is going to require you to let some things go. And until you have identified and letting it go, fully understanding that something might get dropped in the process, but so much more will get picked up if you allow people to just fully flourish, like understanding that that transition might be rocky but it's necessary, because the vision is never going to come to pass if it's only in your hands. No, it won't your purpose. And I think again, thank you, ruth Abigail, because Paul was a great example and we appreciate you being the biblical example you know,
Speaker 2:extraordinary on today, thank you. But I think, even looking at him, like he, you know, saying he was writing in to say, hey, y'all stay, stay with the vision, stay with the vision. Okay, I'm trusting y'all, y'all are leading. But every church had their own specific thing, own specific way that they was kind of rocking, rocking to the left and the right, and so Paul would come in and check in and be like, hey, that ain't what I told y'all to do. Yeah, that was not the vision, that's not. That is not how God is leading this thing. And I think not how God is leading this thing. And I think and and that that is such a, a, a great example of autocratic leadership and how it can be healthy. But you have to, you have to pass the ball.
Speaker 1:Two things that I think um, and I'll, I'll, we, if we, we might end here. I don't know if we may or may not, but you, you tell me but like two things that I really think in my personal leadership has really helped being a builder. Now, I don't have an autocratic mentality, but I'm not mentality, personality, like my. Well, you know what, you know what I might, but I try to be nice. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:We ain't saying autocratic people couldn't be nice. That's absolutely right. So you're right. I think you have. I think you have an inclination. I think I do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you have an inclination because I don't want to come across as a jerk, but I do have particular things that I and I do and I think my, I think the teams that I've I've led have definitely like hinted at hey, we got it or hey, y'all have to keep checking in.
Speaker 2:Hey, right, and I feel like every episode Rueveb's gonna be like.
Speaker 1:I identify with this. I mean, honestly, it really is kind of like you know I'm becoming more self-aware, but, um, two things that have helped me to uh pivot. Um, I don't know about the pivot pivot who I am as a leader to fit the season, that needs to be. Um is as a builder and I, I am a builder, so I do have, like, when and when I'm building something like there is this, like no, no, no, it needs to be this, this is, this is what we're, this is where we're going, um, and it is uh, so, as a, that is currently I'm a builder in the seat of an optimizer. That's what's happening right now in the organization. But what has helped me to pivot is to embrace the newness of things to build Within the seat, things to build within the seat. So, if you can, there are there are things about about Angel Street that are that that, quite frankly, I have contributed to building. That are built. They don't need changing, they don't need innovation, it's what it is. What they need is somebody to come in and scale it. Then there are things about Angel Street that are new.
Speaker 1:Most things in the last several years that were new came from my brain and simply because the way that I think is to do the new thing. What I had to learn was don't sabotage the old thing building a new thing. So what do I have to do? I have to give the old things away and me focus on the new thing. But if I focus on the new thing, I won't be so preoccupied with the old thing. The problem is, people don't have a new thing. You're not focusing on your new thing and the thing is, as a builder, you always have new things. So go do that right, don't stifle that because you're trying to hold on. So that has really helped me to really lean in and become a learner again, because I'm learning how to do things. I get to be a student.
Speaker 1:I get to become a novice again at something. I really don't know what I'm doing and that preoccupies me. To be like, hey, they got this, I don't have to worry about that, but these other things? It's like, yo, I have these ideas, but I really don't know how to execute them. I need help. I really don't know how to go about doing this. I don't know what the steps are to this. I've never done this before. Organizations haven haven't really leaned into this before. I can't really talk to anybody about it. That's how I move and it takes me away from the like, the, the necessity to say to, to want to oversee the things that are really established. So that is, that's one thing. I think the other thing, um, that has, that has really helped me. What, oh shoot, did I lose it? Dadgummit, I think think I lost it.
Speaker 2:This moment is brought to you by middle adult oh man, I definitely did she lose it? Yes, she did. Will she get it back?
Speaker 1:if she looks up at the ceiling long enough, it might float back down to her yeah, um, yeah, I don't know that we will, but but yeah, I don't want to linger, but I do think that that has been helpful for me as somebody who is a leader, who's a builder, who is actually sitting in an optimizer position so that I don't pile on new things to the old thing. I have to find my new direction and lean into that, and lean into the things that I know that that will benefit the organization, that are what we've never done before. I'm doing that. Let me do that because that's my, that's my strength yeah.
Speaker 1:I need to stay away from the other thing, right?
Speaker 2:um yeah so I think again as that, as that optimizer, I really am resonating with that. I mean, I have been in places where I've been a builder but really I'm building to get to optimizing. Yeah, like I'm like all right, here's an idea. All right, now let me get my team together, let me get my thoughts together. All right, what do you guys think we should do?
Speaker 1:that is okay, now yeah immediately.
Speaker 2:That's like my, that's my go-to like when I have a vision, it's okay.
Speaker 2:Who can I bring around to do this? What are all the parts and pieces of it? Because I need to be in a place where I'm galvanizing, where I'm developing, where I'm scaling, where I'm like all right, like right now. My job is I create orientation programs. The school has been doing orientation programs for you know, since the school was a thing, probably Right.
Speaker 2:But my mind is like how can we do this in a way that's going to be more impactful? Yeah, I want the people to leave inspired, I want them to experience orientation like they've never experienced it before, and that's my lane. Yep, that is my lane is how do we take something and I'm also like, even in my like normal conversations, how do I take something that seems regular to people and I'm like, nah, I can make this thing so profound, so amazing, and I can scale the way that you think about it. You know, and I think, if you are an autocratic leader, look for your scaler, look for your. You need to find your developer, your optimizer. What was you calling it? Optimizer? Yeah, you need to find your optimizer.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I think that was the second thing I was going to say actually was was find your, find the person who can scale what you're doing.
Speaker 2:Find your optimizer. You need to partner with that person. You need to partner with that person Partner, partner, partner. Partner doesn't mean I tell the optimizer what to do. No Partner.
Speaker 2:That's correct Partner doesn't mean I watch and helicopter over the optimizer to make sure they do it in the way that I would do it. They're not going to the optimizer is not going to do it the way you would do it Right, because they're not a builder Right and you have to trust and, I think, autocratic leadership. I think one of the things that they might lack a little is trust.
Speaker 1:For sure, that's a huge deficit.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, you lack trust. Yeah, you lack trust and you lack an ability to allow somebody else, because you treat everything. I don't know if you treat everything like your baby, but you treat everything like it's yours. And I think if you can be like Paul and say this is the Lord's church, this is the Lord's idea, this is the Lord's vision, and it can travel to somebody else's hands. It came back, I came back. I told y'all Middle of the moments it always comes back baby.
Speaker 1:That's right, yes, paul, okay, so the idea like this is Paul really transitioned once he built the thing and I'm using this word loosely, but he kind of transitioned into like a consultant, right, he started to help people maintain what was built so he could see what it's like. Hey, uh, nah, like you need to do it like this, right, or? There's a gap here, so how about do?
Speaker 1:this, here's this tool, but he didn't go and he didn't go run it. He didn't go say hey everybody, I gotta come back this is y'all all right?
Speaker 2:everybody sit down. I got it because y'all were never gonna get answered.
Speaker 1:He answered questions. Right, he answered questions. He became somebody you could come like hey, we're having this issue, can you help us? Yes, I can do that right. Um, and then he would give the context around why he's asked that is man. I hope to set somebody free that is a great place to pivot if you're an autocratic leader and you've built something. Pivot to a consultant, pivot to somebody to a coach, to a coach pivot. Yes, you know, I'm saying back up, yeah like no, I'm serious because you are wearing.
Speaker 2:You are wearing yourself out. Yeah, and and that's what I meant to say when we were talking earlier about it the autocratic leadership style. If you stay in that place of I gotta do everything. Everything has to come from me, all All my ideas, all my thoughts. Nobody else is going to do it like me.
Speaker 1:You get tired, you are wearing yourself out.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes. And you are operating under this misaligned idea that, because you are the one with the vision, that nobody else will be able to carry it out. But the Bible says that if you give them the vision, the people will run with it. Let them have it, let them run. You're not the runner. You know what I'm saying? You trying to create the vision and run with it. Do you know how much energy you just expended creating it? You don't have to run with it too. That's why we are the body of Christ, and the head can't do what the shoulder do, what the arm do, what the wrist do.
Speaker 1:Your job, and this is something I'm learning literally right now, and this is something I think Paul did. He wrote letters, he wrote down, he wrote he wrote instruction. He wrote it down. Write it down. Write your stuff down, stop trying to tell people stop trying to go and do things on the spot and execute. That's not your job. Write it down, give it to them, let them figure it out. That's where, that's where your. I think, that's where our strength is better, is better used right. If you create, you create documents create them.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm saying. Like go ahead and do it so that people have the resources to then optimize and or fix. Like pivot your energy into that. Right, and when it's written, that becomes a standard operating procedure, come on, like this is this is the standard, because who just made 14 of those? Yes, that was me. I did it. I made 14 SOPs. I was like what she talking about. I was like, did Paul?
Speaker 2:have 14 letters. No, I was confused. That's hilarious. I mean, I think that that's so key. And even when you look at, you know, as Steve Jobs like you know who a highly innovative, you know his vision was so precise and you know we got all these products that everybody loves. And you know, if you are an Apple, you know believer what they call it the Apple-stolic. If you are Apple-stolic, like a Apple-stolic.
Speaker 2:If you are Apple-stolic, you know like you are like this is the best of the best. You know, people who use MacBooks are like man. No the MacBook. Because, see, when I first got the MacBook, I was like what, who built this? Who developed this? But there's such a high level of, there's a high standard on these. We can debate about the innovation, but it's built with a high standard. One reason why I have stuck with an iPhone is because people know I was known for breaking a phone I mean phone shattered the pieces. Very true, these iPhones, Yep, Durable, Sturdy. Okay, you know they're built well. They may not do all the things the Androids do, but it ain't broke on me yet.
Speaker 2:Okay, it hang tough with me, you know, but when you think about all of the benefits of jobs and he was I mean, he was such an innovative leader and has such a high standard but when you look at what it was like to work in that place right, they were, they were not. This is not Google, right, people weren't running. This is not Yahoo. Okay, people were not excited to be there, right? So there was high employee turnover.
Speaker 2:You know, they were known to have like a toxic workplace reputation and I think one of the things that autocratic leaders can miss out on. If you do not, if you do not take a step back from the vision and see the people, you will, you will lose the benefit of collaboration and some of the things that those Democratic leaders if you watch the last episode, some of those things that those Democratic leadership styles are easily getting right there they're getting the best out of their team. You're not going to get the best out of your team, and I think what you said was so key, ruth Abigail, in that you have to be able to transition to a coaching realm in what you're doing and you also have to make sure that you know what's important about the vision. The impact of the vision is important. The excellence and the standards of the vision is important. Some of the other stuff that you're holding on to may not actually be the vision it may be your preference.
Speaker 2:And you have to be able to parse out. Where did I go in and insert my preference into the purpose? That's correct and you have to be able to separate those and I think once you do that, you can allow people, you can pass the ball and they may not do what you prefer, but they may still be aligned with the purpose, the mission, the values and the standards of what you've built the mission, the values and the standards of what you've built.
Speaker 1:And there you have it, folks autocratic leadership.
Speaker 2:Man, our thoughts on autocratic leadership, y'all this stuff be getting deeper than we be planning.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna tell you that it do, it do.
Speaker 1:We said we was gonna be done in 50 minutes you said 40 minutes and I said yeah right, I did, I did I thought we were, but but we, we, we did it in a reasonable amount of time. We said we need to say amen, um. So, yeah, I think this is, uh, I hope, y'all enjoying this, this, I hope you've enjoyed this conversation. We, um I really like having this conversation about leadership, so y'all, uh, yeah, this is really good and I think it's helping me. Hopefully it's helping you, and we will be back next week. So until then, we're going to keep on unlearning together so that we can experience more freedom. Bye y'all.
Speaker 1:Thank you once again for listening to the Unlearned Podcast. We would love to hear your comments and your feedback about the episode. Feel free to follow us on Facebook and Instagram and to let us know what you think. We're looking forward to the next time when we are able to unlearn together to move forward towards freedom. See you then.
.jpeg)