The UnlearnT Podcast
The UnlearnT Podcast is designed to help you gain the courage to change your mind about things you never thought you would change your mind about. Our hope is that you will begin to move towards a life of freedom after hearing stories from individuals who have chosen to unlearn some things in their lives.
The UnlearnT Podcast
What's Your Leadership Style?: Unlearning Servant Leadership
We rethink servant leadership, tracing how values shape style, when closeness empowers, and where boundaries keep service from becoming control. We compare servant and transformational modes, test historical examples, and offer practical pivots for sustainable leadership.
• values driving leadership styles and choices
• definition and core traits of servant leadership
• inspire versus motivate as a practical distinction
• where servant leadership fits best on a team’s journey
• referral, boundaries and network support to prevent dependence
• middle management as the bridge for people and mission
• MLK and Jesus as lenses for public versus close leadership
• shadow side of glorified burnout and subtle power
• safeguards: accountability, community, healthy outlets, release plans
• practical pivots to democratic or directive styles when needed
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Hello, everybody, and welcome once again to the Unlearnt Podcast. I am your host, Radabigail, a K-A-R-A.
SPEAKER_01:What's up, friends? It's your girl, Jaquita.
SPEAKER_02:And this is the podcast that is helping you gain the courage to change your mind so that you can experience more freedom. My Lord. Absolutely. How you doing? Freedom. Man, we're gonna talk a lot about freedom today. Okay. And you know that on this day that we're recording, it is Freedom Day.
SPEAKER_01:It's Juneteenth. Okay. I wasn't gonna say it because then they would know. No what?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, you know, you listen to this way after Juneteenth, but we're recording this on Juneteenth. Amen. Amen. We we think ahead. I don't think they need to know that. It's okay. It's okay. It's freedom day, you know?
SPEAKER_01:All right. Listen, and I so since we're here, I was talking with because I went in the to the office today. You know, this is my podcast shirt, but I had on a Juneteenth shirt. Like went in the office, was like, Happy Juneteenth, everyone. Absolutely. Okay, I was the only black person there today. But I went in, everybody's office saying, Happy Juneteenth, happy Juneteenth. And then somebody said, Happy Juneteenth to you. And I'm like, no, happy Juneteenth to us. Okay, happy Juneteenth to us all. All right, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That's hilarious.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, don't play me. No, that's actually really funny. We're all celebrating. Wow, wow. Okay. Wow. This is a us holiday. You tell them, okay. This is an American holiday. You tell them. And I don't know why I'm here. Okay. I don't even know why I had to show up today. And I left early. They were like, Quitty, you leaving? Yes. Absolutely. I only came in here to do one thing. Yeah. Okay. My people were set free today. You're not finna hold me up in this office. And I'm going to a fish fry later on. Love it. Anywho. Love it. Love it. Yeah. So, you know, I think, you know, we've been talking about these leadership styles. Um, and we we've gotten through a good bit of them. I think this one will put us at the halfway mark or a little bit over the halfway mark. Um, and I think as I've been pondering, the conversations have been so rich and so good because it has really helped me to understand like where I have had to make pivots in my own approach to leading a team. And now that I don't have a team, it's also has given me some understanding about just who I am as a person and what I value. Because I think a lot of times we bring what we value into our leadership style. Like there's a subscript under when you say I am a transformational leader, I am a laissez-faire leader, I'm an autocratic leader, there's a subscript that says, I am an autocratic leader because I value, you know, power dynamics, I value mentorship, I value, you know, people uh being well informed and and are being like, you know, there's a value system that follows that follows your leadership style. And I think that it's important that when as you're thinking about who you are as a leader, that you're also not just identifying what your leadership style is, but also the values that are attached to it because I think it'll help you understand yourself.
SPEAKER_02:So what what are the values that you attach to the leadership style you're most connected with?
SPEAKER_01:Which is not what we're talking about today, but I'm curious. You brought this up. Yeah, so the one that I'm most connected to is transformational leadership. Um, and it's in the name. Amen. It's in the name, huh? We're not trying to hide it, it's right there for you. Oh my lord. You know, like I I value growth, I value, I value uh people, I value becoming. Um, and that's what I think transformational leadership, and I value transformational leadership is all about making sure that you are representing what you are asking people to become. And that's really something that I value is is is how I show up um to people and for people.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Yeah. Um, so this this particular leadership style we're talking about today is servant leadership. And I that's the one I probably identify with the most, that I lean towards the most, and I have to pivot from the most. Um and the value behind that for me is I think valuing the development of people and like the best for people. Like I want to see people at their best. And how can I how can I partner with you? How can I help you to do that? Because I I don't like seeing people beneath their potential. It it drives me crazy. Um, and so I it's like whenever whatever teams I lead, I find myself wanting to uh come alongside them, not just for not just so the mission is is is fulfilled, um, but so that uh they are fulfilling the mission at their best. Like um it to me, it's not a win if the mission is fulfilled and you stay the same. It it is a win if we if the mission is fulfilled and you are better as a result, and I am a as a leader, I I want to play a role in both of those, right?
SPEAKER_00:Um, that's good.
SPEAKER_02:And I think so. Servant leadership, servant leadership to me, in my world, I work, you know, in the world of um non nonprofit, but within that, like the subculture of like ministry nonprofit. Um, so this idea of servant leadership is very we can't.
SPEAKER_01:It's huge in the ministry world. Like it's like it's like it's they don't even know the other ones.
SPEAKER_02:No, right. That's all you hear about. They haven't been like democratic, no right. It's like it's the only thing you really hear about. And and so it's propped up as the ideal. But what I what I think is so important, like we've been saying about all of them, is understanding where it belongs. And this is something I've truly had to unlearn that you can't always be a servant leader. That is not the proper leadership style all the time, which in the world I'm in can sound a little heretical. Um, and almost like, what do you mean? Like this is though, this is this is Jesus was a servant, right? You do that, right?
SPEAKER_01:You serve we, yeah. Right. And I just think just in general, even outside of the church space, the idea of being a servant is revered. You know, like it's like, oh, because honestly, when people hear servant, they say, Oh, you're gonna avail yourself to me, you know, like I anything I need, I can go to this person because they have a servant's mentality. Right, you know, they're gonna be willing to share their knowledge, their wisdom, their time, their resources, you know, and so in the higher ed space, servant leadership blew up as well. You know, like it, it's hey, we because honestly, any job where they want you to do high quality caliber work for little pay, they're gonna emphasize. They are going to emphasize servant leadership. They're gonna be like, hey, you do it because you're a service. That's right. That's right. And this is your this is a call. This is a call. You know, uh uh, we're passion-driven people, man. You know, we're we're heart, we're heart people, you know. You know, we work because we feel we love what we do. Take that up. No, pay, pay me. Now, listen, no, I I I would say that this is probably a secondary leadership side of me. I think that like I'm transformational with a with a uh uh servant leadership underpinning, like, you know, like it's my goal to serve by transformation. Um, and and I think another one of the values of transformational leadership that really sticks with me that isn't as present in servant leadership is a high emphasis on inspiration.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, like that's that's where I that's where I dip out.
SPEAKER_01:Whereas I think servant leadership is more motivational, correct? Right? So when you inspire somebody, you uh inspire them to believe differently.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:When you motivate somebody, you're motivating them to move differently.
SPEAKER_02:And and I'm glad you made that distinction because if if if that if if we're not careful, those two can feel like they're very that they're the same and they're not to your point. And that is that is where I that is where our leadership styles diverge. I am not an inspirational person. Um I and that's not that's not a bad thing. Like I'm not trying to say that like I'm just a horrible, no, but I my goal really isn't to inspire. I need you to actually move. Like I don't really care how you got there, just get move. Like so, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I think when you think about, and obviously, I think we need to do transformational next because we done brought it up five million times. So, guys, make sure, watch this episode, yeah. Watch it and hit us up, hit us up for the next one. Yeah, okay, and we'll we'll dig a little bit deeper. But I think the way that you are monitoring the the growth of your team is different too. Because correct, you know, it's it's you know, monitoring how they move versus what's for me, it's what's underpinning their moves.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you know, like, yeah. And I think I think it's the I think it's definitely noticing it. It's just the energy that we put. Like, I don't put as much energy into their becoming. I put, but they have to become in order to move well. You have to go through that process. It's just as a leader, it's a matter of where are you putting more energy? Am I putting more energy into making or into the the first leg or the second leg? It's really it's it's the same race. It's just like it's just two different parts of it. And I think that's a great point. You know, you have, and so you have to understand which one do you put more energy into. And I think you put more energy into the becoming. And I think the the one of the one of the keys to that is at least I know you to have very um meaningful relationships with some of your from the people you have led, even after you are leading them. I can't say that for me. That's not my style. Like once we're once that part of our relationship has moved on, it's not that I forget about it, but I kind of refuck like it's like, all right, I played my part in your it's kind of like, you know.
SPEAKER_01:No, that's such a great point. And I think this is so important for all of our audience members, our friends, our unlearning friends who are part of the community. I think one thing as you're thinking through your leadership style, um, as especially when we get to some of these who walk a little bit more closely, right? And I think that's why we're talking about servant leadership and transformational leadership, is because they walk really closely with their team. Correct. Um, and I think it's important for you to know, like you just said, Ruth Abigail, what leg of the journey you're on, right? Because I think servant leadership always usually finds itself at the beginning of a journey, at the founding of a thing, right? Because you have to be really, really um intimately involved with pouring in because you are creating foundation and structure for people. For like, you know, for you for you and your team, you might be, you might have to help them really understand, you know, what it what it's like to be in a nonprofit world, you know, what it means to really work with with young women, you know, what it means to build, you know, an organization that's solely around like singing and youth development, you know, and so you're building a lot of tenants, you know, you're giving them a lot of tenets of the work. Um, and that that requires a servant, a servant leadership mentality. Because you're gonna you're availing yourself to them. Yeah. Um, versus if you're not, if you're not that, if you're not at that first step, right, if you're at the next step, then a lot of times what I'm having to do is break down some of the misinformation that they may have received in other areas of their lives. And so there's, you know, one plant, one waters, but God gets the increase. So wherever you find yourself on that spectrum, I just think that it's it's important to know because it helps you as you start mentoring people because somebody may be asking something of you that's not natural to you. That's right. Yeah. You know, they come to you and they need that foundational work, but you're like, I'm second leg. Yeah. You know, and and and I can I can do some of that, but I'm gonna be much better once you get over this hump.
SPEAKER_02:I I I think that's very, very, very important, like, like to understand that because the the servant leadership is a very personal leadership style. Um, it's a c it's a leadership style that requires you to be close to your team. Um and it's a leadership style that can very can actually be very draining um for the leader. And I say this from personal experience. It's it's something and so to your point, you need to understand when it's needed so that you're not you're not um you're not exhausting your your energy in in in seasons that you don't need to be exhausting your energy. Yeah. Um and and that that's something I've had to unlearn about this leadership style, that it's not for every time. And if I if I use it all the time, I'm gonna be depleted as a leader a lot faster. Um and your team, uh, you know, I think that uh it there is a level of teaching, a level of coming alongside of coaching, right? And then you when when when you've done that sufficiently, you have to learn how to release and let them go to do what it is that you've coached them to do. And if you stay too, if you stay too much in that, you'll keep them stuck at a beginner level. And so you wanna be, you wanna be, you need to be able to be hands-off to some degree after you've kind of served in that capacity. I've given you, I've availed myself, I've made uh in other words, I've made myself available um for you to uh learn from, mimic, whatever, right? Um, follow example, all that stuff, um, making sure that you have the things you need in order to do what you have to do. And then I need to step back. I think my issue has been I I struggle with stepping back. Um, and some of that is a control issue, personally for me. Um, because I I like to see things done. It's it's also easier. I won't say easier. Servant leadership also gives you a level of control. Because you're still the one that is you're an expert. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And they're you're serving because you have the juice, you have the resources, you have the experience, you have the knowledge. That's what makes you the servant. Right. Is because you have the know-how.
SPEAKER_02:That's right. And so you so it's if you're not careful, you'll stay there and and you won't you won't release other people to be begin their expert journey. Like you can't, you can't, uh, you can't stay in that. You can't stay in it.
SPEAKER_01:No, that's that because I I feel like I have been in places where I was not released because it was like, nope, nope, I gotta find you still got something else I I need to give you. You still got more. You know, you're not there yet. I still have more to teach, more to learn.
SPEAKER_02:Because it's serving you. And it's like, yeah, not anymore. Not anymore.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and not, and I think a couple of things, and and we hold on, Ruth. I want to take a pause and I'm gonna remember my point. I'm gonna try my best, but we need to give a solid definition of servant leadership.
SPEAKER_02:We haven't done that. Okay, so um definition of servant leadership. Hold on, let me get up my notes here, uh is here it is. Okay, here we go. Um prioritized pro Lord prioritizes, sorry about that, guys, prioritizes your team's needs over your own, and it fosters growth. Um some of the things that it can impact is that it can build trust and foster support. Uh it is fosters a positive, positive culture and empowers the team. So um, I I'd like what one of the one of the other things I like about um kind of what it is, it's it's a uh people centered. Um and you are just as concerned about the people and their development as you are of the mission and its development, right? Um, and so that is that is it's just as important to you. Um, you serve others first, you help individ helping individuals and teams develop and perform at their best. You foster trust, empathy, and shared purpose. It is a together type of leadership.
SPEAKER_01:It's a together type of leader. And anytime that a your leadership style is more focused on people, it's also gonna be very values-heavy. Yeah. Like very, you know, like we have intrinsic values that we're building into the team. Not just I have a value, but we as a team are gonna be very value-centered and we're gonna lead from that context. Um, I think it's definitely another marker of servant leadership. So, what's your point? What were you gonna say? Okay, so I think back to the idea of this being a relay, and you know, and in that idea of servant leadership, our attachment to people can become these are my people. I serve these people, especially, you know, when you think about who we would typically put in a servant leadership category, right? Pastors, pastors, teachers, counselors, all of these helping professions. That's correct, right? Like we're gonna normally, they normally would typically, stereotypically fall within these, within this, within this leadership style. And there is a sense of this is my patient, this is my student, this is my mentee, right? And I'm pouring into them. Um, and we we begin to get to these unhealthy places of where we don't allow that person or those teams to be influenced by other people with other gifts, other leadership styles, other other influence, you know, other impact. And um, and I think that that's I think that that's something that we have to be really mindful of. For sure. Um, because we can inadvertently keep people stuck because we feel like we are the ones called to serve them. Um, whereas one of the things I learned in divinity school in my pastoral care class, which pastoral care was my gym, you know, we spent like a whole week learning the art of the reference, of referring people out to other people. Like, and she said, and she set us down and talked to us and was like, you're gonna feel like you can give all the answers. You're gonna feel like they're gonna they can come to you and talk to you about, you know, 50 million other different things, and you're gonna feel like you can spiritualize it or say something within the context of your relationship with them that makes a little bit of sense and that that's gonna answer their answer their questions, solve their problems. But actually, there are gonna be times where you're gonna have to refer people out. Correct. And you need to be, you need to be comfortable doing that, right? You need and you need to you need to have an arsenal of I serve here, but I also I'm networked. Yeah, right. Like I I'm not just pulling from my own experiences and knowledge and understanding and giving people. I have to make sure that if if somebody is having a mental health crisis, I can refer them out. Yeah, I love this is yeah. I and I mean, I don't mean to cut you off. I'm sorry. No, I was just gonna give other examples, but you know, you sure we all can, you know, the preacher and me, you're supposed to do, you know, three points and a holler.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, three points on a hollow. Let's do one point and um no, I'm just joking. Uh no, but but I I love what you're saying, the referral thing. Again, as as somebody who leans to this leadership side, I have found myself in a situation where I have probably not always consciously, but um have become more to my team than I I probably need to be, right? Um and and part of that is because I I don't have the expertise in some areas, but also I just have to focus on other things. And so I think, you know, when you are um when you're in certain leadership positions, you know, you there the mission is is again has to be as equally important because you can't, and this I I used to say, um, I told somebody one time, I said, I don't know that I'm gonna be a very good organizational leader because I I tend to care more about the people. Like I actually care. My my my bit is actually I'm more about caring about their growth and development. Um however, I have learned as an organizational leader that it doesn't have to be either or it can be both and and part of that is understanding the art of the referral. Like, hey, you ain't gotta coach them and everything. Like, go, you got you know a lot of people. Go, go, yeah, like, hey, you know, they can go to this program, call your friend, tell them, hey, do you mind talking to so and so about this? I know this is really something. Can you, you know, spend some time with them, whatever? Um, you know, I people love doing that. Like, that's something that people really find a lot of life in. And so, um like understanding that it it needs to be both and and also understanding that if I'm going to be a high level leader, then I have to put myself in a mental position to care about the mission as much as I do the people, which means that I have to I have to be very clear on what my servant leadership looks like as an organizational leader. So um that which is different than how it looks as a um I would say, Queen, this would be I'd be interested in and your your um your take on this because you're not necessarily an organizational leader. You're a you have been a team leader, but not an organizational leader. So like I would think that it the approach would be different as a team leader. Um, you would you you you might have more, obviously you there is a mission that you all are trying to do in your team, but you might have a little bit more bandwidth to be more present with them individually than I would as an organizational leader. And I have to kind of balance that out. I mean, would you agree with that? I mean, I don't have to keep making this point with you.
SPEAKER_01:Middle management. Middle management, I know. Hey, middle middle management, girl. Okay, listen, listen, amen. Because yes, yes, I that is the point. So that you can have, you know, middle managers who are walking with the people so that upper management can be more mission focused. Right. Um, and I and I think both of those, in both of those realms, you can still operate at a servant leadership for sure. With servant leadership style, you know. Um, but yes, the the I have emote and if I would say all of my leadership roles, I have been able to walk closely with team members. Um and and it helps because my goal, because oftentimes as a middle manager, you are working with early career professionals, our students, depending on where you are, our interns, you know, you're working with with with people who are just starting out, right? Are people who are um who are at those in those introductory uh level positions.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_01:It's it's not often that you are a middle manager of other middle managers.
SPEAKER_02:You know, that's that's a different world, right? Depending on the hot, right, the large, the larger the organization, the more that might occur. But to your point, yeah, no.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, and so I have found that it, you know, when I was a middle manager reporting to my manager, who I would say he he had somewhat of a servant leadership style, I would think would be kind of one of his one of his first, you know, like he really cared about the team. He knew, but he knew that it wasn't his place to walk with my team members. Right. But he really cared. And so when I reported out, I went through each team member. This is where they are, both, you know, personally, where I see them growing, where I see them developing, what what I'm uh putting in place to get them to where I know that they're supposed to be. Right. We talk about that. Then we'd also talk about the mission. Yeah. Hey, here's what's happening with what they're doing with their roles, how they're crafting, how they're building, how they are moving the organization forward. Yeah. Right? I'm reporting out on both of those because that's the that was my work. My work was not to carry out the program. You need part of your team has to be the the doers, right? Somebody has to be the the middle management that is that is the uh the I don't want to call them the overseers, but they are the they're the ones overseeing the progress and and they're the ones that are gonna turn the dial and say, hey, we need a little bit more of this. Hey, no, we got too much of that. Hey, team, I need all of us to be going in this direction. And then you have someone who is setting vision and and uh report and ensuring the health of the team overall.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Right? We need more money, yeah. Okay, right. We need we need more connections, right? Right. We're gonna be on the news. We need people to prepare us for that, you know, and so I think that's important enough.
SPEAKER_02:So, um, all right, so we try to talk about an example of servant leadership, like in the kind of our example of leadership styles in history or uh in modern day, you know, something other than us. So I'm gonna let Queen introduce this one. We've had many, many discussions about it, and uh, we probably won't be gone off camera, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Top topic.
SPEAKER_01:No, we're not we're not gonna be able to give y'all what we did off camera because Ruth Abigail always wants to be contrary. So here we go. All right. So listen, when you think about examples, I resent that historical, real examples of servant leadership, all right, there should be some people who just float to the top, you know, who are just automatic. All right. And when I think of servant leadership, somebody who just is automatic for me and most everybody else, but for me is Martin Luther King Jr. Like, and when you say, if you have in the if servant leadership were to be in a dictionary, they wouldn't even have words. They would just have MLK's picture right there. Like they would be like, hey, y'all know this man, y'all know what he did. Okay, y'all, yeah, yeah, yeah, you already know what it is. Okay, MLK was a a man who availed himself both to people and the mission, to the development of people and to the development of the mission, just as someone who was who may be at the top of an organization would do. Right. And so I just don't see. I, you know, and then Ruth is from Memphis, like, you know, like the whole Lorraine hotel is right there. Um, but you know, you don't have obviously I'm gonna have to defend myself. Go ahead. Okay, I know. But uh he was value-centered, um, character building when you think about the beloved community, um, and and non the the nonviolence, um it was it was building virtues within people. He walked closely with people. I mean, he couldn't walk with the whole country, but you know, he he impacted the entire country, you know. I believe that his his letters and all of his work, um, especially as it relates to the ways that he was countercultural, um, I believe was also servant leadership style. Anyone who is willing to put their body, their mind, their energy, their family, their thoughts on the line in order to progress people, mission, vision. I believe that person deserves to be put in the servant leadership category.
SPEAKER_02:That's and you know what? I will say you articulate this point very well. And it we have, we have it. We've had quite we have had quite the discussion uh offline. About this between the three of us, producer joy included. Um, and so I um I came into the argument not very not really um convinced that I would use him as a primary example for this. I want to be very clear. Mart Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Okay, I take that Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Okay was indeed a servant. I will I will stand 10 toes down on that 100%. And I want to be clear on that. I want to be very clear. My argument was more so I would put him as a leader as more of a democratic leader than a servant leader. I but I have said and I said this to them offline, and I will say this to you all. I don't know that I I don't have sufficient evidence uh to back my point up as strong, like like to like um die on the hill of that, of that. Uh, but here's my here's why I say that. And uh I just when we're even as we're talking about servant leadership, we're talking about it, like we said, it's very personalized. It's it's you are you you are close to the people that that you're leading, you care about their development, you want to see them grow as well as the mission. Now, what I like about what you said, Quita, and I'll give you your props, is regarding the country, right? He did have a desire for the country to be its best and the people in the country to live at their best. So I could see that correlation. I guess where I was thinking about it before was more so those who were more um, he was leading more directly, specifically within the SCLC organization that he founded, right? Um and I uh I and so I don't know. Like I don't I don't know. I have not done sufficient sufficient research. I don't know what how they would have um kind of identified him if he would have been a servant leader in their eyes, or more of a democratic one, or maybe something else. I don't know. I will say um that his heart was that of a servant. I I I I I have no I have no doubt about that. So anyway, it's just like I said, it's this is my personal opinion. I'm okay if I'm if I'm in the minority. Um and uh so that is that is kind of where we where we landed on that.
SPEAKER_01:But um, I mean, listen, I do I think that there was a democratic style in there somewhere. Sure. Right? I'm not saying, but but to say that his primary style, I mean, I just think everything that he uh he he fought for was servant leadership. He was building servant leaders. I just have to believe that he was.
SPEAKER_02:I just don't know if we know that.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know if we know that. I don't know what to do. You know what? I wish, you know what? If I still had my MLK professor's number, you know, he would have been a great guest. Oh, okay, because he was the MLK scholar.
SPEAKER_02:And I do say I concede to anyone who has done that. I have not done it. So this is not this is just saying I taught class. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, and he used to tell us about how MLK had pillow fights. Okay, that was his thing. He said he used to love pillow fights, and I was like, what an interesting piece of knowledge of information. Correct. That's great. Okay, so yeah. Yeah. But anywho, uh I mean, I think I think regardless of how uh he may have been identified by his team, I do think that there are a lot of servant leadership, the tenets of servant leadership um can are are found very richly within his legacy. I agree. Um, and and I think the argument is is that because he was a servant or because he led with a servant leadership style. Yeah. Um regardless, the man was amazing, he was great, yeah, um, did a lot of good. Um, and we celebrate him and all of his work on this on this beautiful day of freedom. We uh amen.
SPEAKER_02:Amen. I I would like to say there's I mean, Jesus is also somebody that people point to the servant leader, amen. Um, and uh, you know, and I said this offline too, that the way I am kind of categorizing servant leader is in two categories, right? If you serve the way the public sees you and the way the people are closest to you see you. And I think we have evidence, sufficient evidence in the Bible, to definitely say Jesus was a servant leader. Um to a father, you know, right. And so um, the way he treated his disciples, he walked alongside them, he showed them how to do what he was doing, he gave them opportunities, he he served that he encouraged them, he admonished them, he did all that, and he did it to the crowd. Now he did it in a different way, and he he gave up, obviously, he gave up his life for the world, right? For the people, yeah. Um, so I think that that to me is just a clearer um example of the. I'm not gonna disagree with that.
SPEAKER_01:I'm just saying okay, because ain't nobody, ain't nobody like the Lord, Jesus Christ. Amen. Amen. Okay, I'm not gonna disagree that there's any greater example of servant leadership than the Jesus Christ. Amen. Yeah, that's where the argument ends, right there. Okay, right, and I wasn't necessarily trying to do that.
SPEAKER_02:I was just trying to give you a life.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no, he gave his life for us, you know, considered us friends while I was yet in sin. Come on, he died for me. Yes, okay. All right, all right, okay. All right, okay, don't get it I think I think I I have something brimming in my mind, and I don't know if I want to do it because I I feel like I do it. Please stop. Whatever that is that you're doing, Ruth Abigail, please stop. You have confused producer joy and myself, and we don't ever want to see you do that again. Next point. I have another point. I think something, and uh I think something that servant leaders have to be very mindful of is uh glorified burnout.
SPEAKER_02:Amen. That's right.
SPEAKER_01:It is it is glorified burnout. It is I I all my life I had to fight. Yes, you know, and I've been on the front lines for y'all, and I've been doing everything for y'all, and I've given everything that I have, and and it's it is a you ooh, sorry, it hit me. You put the team, you put the team in a place of feeling like they almost owe you, yeah. Because of what you've done. When I think it's also you gotta be mindful that a lot of times when you are a servant leader, the people may not have requested of you what you have given. Absolutely, they may not, nobody has required that of you. Yeah, you within your own self felt led to pour, to, to, to give, to, to serve, right? That is a it is a personal motivation, yeah. And so when you get tired, when you get flustered, you can't blame the people.
SPEAKER_02:It it is um that's that's the shadow side of servant leadership. And it's the the the the truest definition is you want to put the team above yourself, but when you do that, you begin to put yourself above the team. And you but it but it looks like you're putting the team first, but it's not because it's actually personal gratification for you. Um, you know, yeah, oh, oh, so you know, so so so I for myself, I have again, I I I you know, I'm I'm really I I appreciate these uh these episodes because it's helping me. These transparent moments. Well, I mean, yeah, because I'm just being honest, like, you know, when I've been I've been I've been a leader in this position for five years, and I'm telling you, man, I made so many mistakes. Um, and I and I and I and I see that and I recognize it, and I'm grateful that I've made them because I learned from them. But it takes discipline to hold back when you care. Ooh.
SPEAKER_01:You know, yes, it takes it takes real discipline, yeah. Yes, it takes discipline to hold back when you care. It also takes discipline to not feed off of what you've given and what you've done. 100%. Because I think that we we like to take the credit, but again, it's some plant, some water, but you the increase does not belong to you. And so when we finally see the results of everything we sold, we go, and that's what I thought. Because I mentored you, okay, because I did that. And and that is an easy trap to fall into. Yes, because not only are you taking trying to take possession over someone's growth, you end up trying to take possession over the person. Because what happens when that person stops growing? Correct. Now it's you are going to embarrass me.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_01:You're gonna make me look bad because everybody knows I serve you.
SPEAKER_02:Right. Or you're gonna put me in a position of where I have to be tired again, or you're gonna make me move back into this like position of a servant and of of leading you, or you're not, you know, you're not getting it, or whatever. And it's like, it's not like you said, you gotta understand where your place is. Um you know, the best farmers don't I want to make sure I say this right. Um, when when you are when you're part of that kind of growing process, you don't you don't you don't want to eat up all your own fruit. It it needs to be for other people, right? And what happens is if leaders, and and it's like you can't you can't lead if you can't lead those that you need things from. So that is, and that's a that's I think it's just a a basic principle of leadership. You can't lead those that you need from.
SPEAKER_00:That's good.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and so if you are if your heart starts off, because oftentimes it's it is good intention, right? You start off wanting the best. But if you allow yourself to need people for you to need from the people that you lead, you will continue to lead from that place of I want something back from you. And that becomes dangerous to your point, and it becomes an unhealthy connection, and you you actually end up um harming those that you're leading more than helping them. Um and you don't necessarily intend to. I don't think that that is a desire of leaders, particularly servant leaders. I don't think so at all. But I think you gotta be careful, which means you have to understand your own um all leaders need to have need to be led. And so if you if you aren't following somebody, right? If you don't have somebody that's leading you, come on here, then you will you will fall into the trap of I just gotta keep leading, gotta keep leading, and you won't, you don't hear, and you you're not being led and directed by somebody who is more uh seasoned, then you can say, okay, it's time for you to pull back. All right, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I think that the that the term so servant leadership can be misleading into thinking that there doesn't end up being some type of power dynamic there. You know, it it it it misleads us to think like, oh, I'm so I'm serving you. So I'm I'm I'm I'm not holding any power over you, but that is absolutely not the case. No, not the case. Right? You are you are absolutely I am held, I am held to what you have. I am held, and this is how people start getting into areas of being emotionally and spiritually manipulated and abused because whoever is over them that may be serving them is is keeping them tied to you need what I have.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm gonna be the I'm the one who's going to pour into you and develop you and strengthen you. I'm the one and you need me. And it can quickly go off the rails, especially when that person that is a servant leadership is not stable in a healthy, in a healthy uh relationship with themselves, with the Lord, and with another leader.
SPEAKER_02:100%.
SPEAKER_01:All three with a leader, with a you need all three. Three of those. All three. Okay. You need all of those because you need to be held accountable and you need to make sure that some that that if the people you're leading are not able to call you out, that you have a leader that can tell you, uh, you're going too far. You're going too far. And not and not just you doing too much, because this is where I think servant leaders also get thrown off, is because people, people glorify because they do because they do so much, people don't know how to be like, hey, it's not even that you're just doing too much. It's that what you what you're building this relationship on is not healthy. Right. You're you're getting, and I think sometimes you have to step back and say, okay, am I am I honestly, what am I getting out of this relationship that maybe I'm I'm actually being served just as much as I'm serving? That's right. Exactly. That's you have to, and I think a lot of times it's kind of like Elijah, after he, you know, he he done fought all the prophets, you know, the done rain down fire from heaven, and then he he went up on the mountain and he was like, Me, only me. It's only me out here fighting for the Lord. And the Lord was like, bruh, I got people all over. Right. Right, you know, like chilling. You are isolated within your story, thinking it's just me. I'm the only one that's doing this, and nobody's gonna serve, and nobody's gonna do, and nobody's gonna walk, nobody's gonna give like I do. Yes. And and you miss, you miss what other people, you you take yourself out of community. And I think that that's something that servant leaders have to be aware of is how am I situated within community?
SPEAKER_02:When when you servant leadership has a um humility factor, right? You know, you you you uh you are kind of seen as a humble person to serve, to be a servant leader. Uh but when it is it is easier than I think we realize for those of us who are who lean into humility to the point to where it turns into pride. And you don't even realize it. You you don't even realize it. And what I think what you just described is exactly that. You you're so humble that you glore you begin you begin to glorify your own humility, and that becomes pride. And when you're not in community, pride is so sneaky, you can't see it, right? So, so a lot of times pride has to be um observed by somebody else to be called out, right? Uh, and so I think that is it's something to be careful around. Like, like don't um don't be so caught up in in what other how other people describe what you're doing. Don't let that get to your head so much so that you begin to believe that and and then it turns into this arrogance that says, I'm the only one who can do it. Um and and and you're yeah, so I just I I think that servant leadership is beautiful, but sometimes it's the it's the it's the leadership styles that are the most idealistic that can become the most dangerous.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and and I think it's something that we have to unlearn with with with this particular one, um, that you have to have again, you have to have discipline, right? It everything, everything does not, everything doesn't need your attention or require your voice. Um, I know you you might think that I have thought that, like because I care, because I see, right? Because I notice this, because you can see kind of beyond, I think a strength of a servant leader is they see the people very clearly, and they see beyond, I see you beyond the role you have at this job. Like I see who you are, right?
SPEAKER_01:That's good. And and and you have to.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you have to, and you have to know when it's time to speak into that and when it's not.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you have to know when it's time, and you also have to know when it's your place. Yes. And and you have to also you have to also realize when what you see is not the whole picture. Yeah. Because you're going hard at what you see, um, because you feel called to serve in that particular area, yeah. But you may not have all the information to be able to properly serve.
SPEAKER_02:So I think um if if these are the if you're if you're finding yourself like in those in those uh in those seasons, I think um I I you know what I want to go back to what you said. You as a certain, especially if you find yourself in that servant leadership mode, you need to make sure that you are uh have a good relationship with yourself, that you are healthy individuals, that you're in good relationship with God, and you have a relationship with another leader. Um, and and um part, you know, um uh that you're in healthy community. Those four things are what's gonna allow you to understand when you need to pivot your style. Um I would say even more so than others because again, this style is so idealistic. You're it's hard to believe that I would ever pivot from something like this. Like this. Why would I why would I not want to do that, right? Jesus was a servant, I'm gonna serve, right? I mean, like, like, and that's a real, it's a real um uh tension with a lot of people in this type in in like service-oriented uh um uh positions and roles. But the reality is, yeah, you need to pivot. You because you don't have the you don't you don't have perfect humility like Jesus did. Jesus did like that's not us, that's not who you are, that's not your story. So you need that you need to have these four safeguards. You need to have health within yourself, health within um community, you need to have a leader you're following, and you need to be following the Lord. Like if you gotta have those four safeguards so that you understand when you need to pivot into a different style so that you don't become consumed with your own leadership.
SPEAKER_01:Um you need healthy outlets that are not focused on what you do for people.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, Lord.
SPEAKER_01:You need healthy outlets, yes. Um, are are you will find yourself being over consumed?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, you will. Been there, like not even joking, like been there and and I that this is something I'm constantly unlearning, like like all the time as to when I need to pivot. And I'm grateful for the people in my life that helped me with that, um, who have been there, right? Um, so yeah, all right.
SPEAKER_01:No, I think I think also when you uh study the other styles, yeah, because because it's such an idealistic style, it is easy to just say, well, I'm just gonna use this one every time, right? You might need to find a democratic style, right? Like you might need to say, hey, you know, I I I need us all to pull together. Yeah. Because really what may what may need to happen is that you need to hear, you need to hear from the people what they need. Yeah. Instead of you making assumptions. Which I think also happens a lot in servant leadership. Guilty. 100%. Yeah. No, you you need to allow, and even realizing that them expressing is a part of their growth. And by you always coming in before they have a chance to figure it out themselves, you're all you're actually hindering them from being able. It's like if a baby was trying to learn how to eat, and you're always like, No, I got it, baby. I got it, right, right. Here you go. Here you go. Here you go.
SPEAKER_02:Somebody called me out on that not too long ago, actually, for real. Like, somebody called me out on that. It's like, you gotta stop trying to don't help them till they say they need help. You know, you're right. Yeah. You right, you right, you right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you you gotta fall back and you gotta be okay with them not getting it right the first time. Yep. Baby gonna throw food all over. Yes, but eventually they're gonna get it. You know, have you ever seen those videos on Instagram where they let the babies like pour the juice? Yes. And I've been like, oh Lord, the whole bottle of juice is on, but the baby is like, I gotta get it. And they done poured out half the juice, but finally they get it to the cup. Yep. Right. You have to be okay with some juice on the ground. You do. You have to you have to be okay with it, and you have to know that they that they have a grace for that. Yeah, everybody is given a measure of grace according to the in according to the gift that's in them. Right. They have a grace to spill some. Yeah, yeah. Let them let them do it. You have to let them do it. Yeah, you have to let them do it. That's really good. I'm glad that's so good. I'm glad you said that.
SPEAKER_02:Ooh, Lord, help me. Help me. Okay, anyway.
SPEAKER_01:Me and Abigail will be having a private session. We probably where I will do what I've always done in her life. Okay. Make her better.
SPEAKER_02:Anyway, we are gonna end it right there. Um, so um just jokes, miss, just jokes. Hey y'all, if you uh, as we as we always say, if you um if we find value in these conversations, we want you to like, share, and subscribe to the unlearned podcast. We want you to become a part of this unlearned community. Uh it is continuing to grow. Come on. Hey, man, we're all about we're all about good. Big hugs here, okay? Well, big hugs from freedom. I give you a depth.
SPEAKER_01:You don't want a Ruth Abigail hug.
SPEAKER_02:Actually, I have become a better hugger as a result of being your friend.
SPEAKER_01:Because we have I will say that I worked on that.
SPEAKER_02:Somebody said, Oh, you give great hugs. They told me that the other day. Ain't that crazy?
SPEAKER_01:Anyway, trying not to let my pride rise up. Um if I think about my servant leadership in that area.
SPEAKER_02:Very much so. I I am a product. Um, so yeah, so yeah, we we just want you to become a part of this thing, and we we love sharing this with you. And if if this if this we want to hear what you're unlearning from leadership. Um, and tell us uh tell us how this is impacting you. So we can't wait to see y'all next week. But until then, let's keep unlearning together so that we can experience more burritos. Thank you once again for listening to the Unlearned Podcast. We would love to hear your comments and your feedback about the episode. Feel free to follow us on Facebook and Instagram and to let us know what you think. We're looking forward to the next time when we are able to unlearn together to move forward towards freedom. See you then.
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