The UnlearnT Podcast
The UnlearnT Podcast is designed to help you gain the courage to change your mind about things you never thought you would change your mind about. Our hope is that you will begin to move towards a life of freedom after hearing stories from individuals who have chosen to unlearn some things in their lives.
The UnlearnT Podcast
What’s Your Leadership Style: Unlearning Transformational Leadership
We unpack transformational leadership through real stories, moving from identity and belief to sustainable action. We name the strengths, blind spots, and boundaries that keep charisma ethical and growth-centered.
• defining transformational leadership and its core pillars
• coaching belief before behavior using the be do have model
• individualized consideration and long-term loyalty
• where this style fails in crisis and how to pivot
• boundaries to avoid favorites and blurred roles
• mission focus over ego and preference
• ethical voice use, speaking last, and avoiding manipulation
• sharing influence with other leaders and building community
• releasing people well and holding allegiance loosely
• practical tips to balance inspiration with structure
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Hello, everybody, and welcome once again to the Unlert podcast. I'm your host with Abigail, aka R A.
SPEAKER_03:What's up, friends? It's your girl, Jaquita.
SPEAKER_02:And this is the podcast that is helping you gain the courage to change your mind so that we and we can experience more freedom. I don't know what happened there. It's fine.
SPEAKER_03:It's all right. It's all right. It's another middle adult moment, friends. It's another middle adult moment. Ruth Amiga has literally done that intro five million times.
SPEAKER_02:You know, like sometimes you just, it's like um autopilot, and you just you overthink it's no auto did not pilot. It did not. Okay. I don't know what you're doing. No, this is why, because you know, and and you guys, just so you know in the background, um, you might hear a little screaming. I have four children in my house. Do I normally have four children at my house? I do not. Um, but our nephews are in town and uh they are staying with us for a week. And she's out here, all right. We have four children in the house. So I apologize for any background noise you might hear. We're gonna try to fix that. But if we don't, hey, listen there you go.
SPEAKER_03:That's also why my brother's not how kids are, all right. Listen, it's better that they're having a good time, all right, then you try to shush them, it's just gonna make it worse. Correct.
SPEAKER_02:I it's that's why I was like, it's not even a I shouldn't even because then they're gonna find reasons to be in here. And no, let them be free.
SPEAKER_03:But if they're not free, they they get curious.
SPEAKER_02:That's exactly right.
SPEAKER_03:And when they get curious, they get dangerous. That's right. They do. Okay, they do. Let them children have a good time.
SPEAKER_02:And I love it, and I love them, and it's been a wild, fun week, and so my brain's a little mushy. So I apologize if I don't have my thoughts all the way together. But that's okay because today is actually Queda's favorite leadership style. I'm very excited.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, like you definitely mentioned it. Golly wits, friends. Like, let's talk about transformational leadership, okay? It's one of my favorite things ever. Um, you know, and I think first, before we even get into it, you thought we forgot, didn't you? You thought we were gonna remember. Like, share, subscribe, huh? What are you waiting on? Get in there, okay? Become part of this family, become part of this community, we become part of what we do out here in these streets. Yes, okay. We uh love interacting and engaging with you guys. Thank y'all for rocking with us, all right? But let's make it official. Okay, let's stop hanging out in the corner, okay? And get on in here and be a be official, unite with us, okay, as we move together. Follow me as I follow Christ.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, we love having y'all part of our community. So, um Quita, we are talking about transferly transformational leadership today. And um, if you've been paying attention to uh prior episodes, you have you actually heard Queda talk about this um in segments along the way because she just can't help herself. She can't help herself. Um because this is this is her favorite leadership style, it's the one she connects to the most. And so uh what I'm gonna do because I'm gonna just tell you right now, she you're gonna hear from her more than you're gonna hear from me on this. I'm just gonna be honest with you. That's not true. So, yes, it is, but um so and for that, I'm gonna go ahead and like open it up. And I'm gonna like Okay, throw you a softball, you know what I'm saying? All right, so you're actually really good at that. So we're gonna do that. Uh so let me get my little bit of a little bit of a little bit more. We're gonna tell the people what it is. Okay. So transformational leadership, it is here's what it does it inspires through shared vision and fosters growth. All right. The impact this has is it builds loyalty and encourages development. And uh the way you can kind of use it is it's effective in change or in goal-driven context. Okay. So um some other key aspects of transformational leadership um are inspirational motivation. Articulates a compelling vision that inspires my lord. Come on, come on, come on, yeah, yeah. Intellectual stimulation. Oh, that's right up.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, we're gonna stimulate.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, okay. We're gonna get the people thinking and the things moving. You're gonna spark the mind there, Quita. Is that what you uh just a little bit? Just do a little spark. Just a little bit. Uh so they challenge followers to think critically, question assumptions, innovate, um, individualized consideration, right? Leaders are very concerned about the individual person. Um, and they like to provide support, coaching, mentorship. Um, and then idealized influence, or uh, as we like to more commonly call it, charisma. And who's more charismatic than Jaquita Ross? Um leaders act as role models, inspiring trust and respect um amongst their folks. Now, seriously, in all seriousness, uh I have seen Jakuita around the people that she leads, like I've seen a few times, and this describes her very, very perfectly. She is a textbook transformational leader. And it's really, it's really cool like to see it because what and I've told you this before, one of the things I really admire about your leadership is um the fact that the people that you have had that leadership relationship with, it they stick to you. You know what I'm saying? Like they really don't like you you don't you don't directly in a formal way lead them anymore, but they are still with you, right? They are they still kind of um they they follow you in a sense, right? Like they they are still there, and I think you've done a really, really good job over multiple years, several years of of doing that kind of work with younger leaders. And so uh I how now I kind of gave like the technical definition, but like you give it from a more practical, like day-to-day, you know what I'm saying? This is your softball. Give it like you know, what there you catch a ball? Okay, all right, all right.
SPEAKER_03:Sorry, y'all. Inside joke. I walked right into that. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Ruth Abigail has, you know, this one picture where she's just like, Okay, all right. I think she was making an example. She didn't mean so we call it her catch a ball pose. Um, anywho, first of all, Ruth Abigail, yeah, I feel like, you know, like you set me up to give like a speech or something. Like I want to thank you for the wonderful introduction. You know, man, you know how people say, Man, I didn't even really believe that was me as she was up there giving those words. Um, you know, now I'd like to address the unlearned community. Um, but you know, I I think I did, I was doing transformational leadership before I even knew what it was called. Um, it's just it's natural, it's just very natural for me. Um, and I think that one of the things that I I always emphasize, um, I heard this quote one time and it just stuck with me, and it just be kind of came, it became kind of the foundation of everything I did. And it's that we are human beings, not human doings. Right. And so I don't really like focusing on doing anyway, you know, just in naturally who I am. It's actually very true. I am not, here's the thing, I can execute, and when I do execute, I do it with excellence, right? But I much prefer to sit, ponder, think, inspire, you know, move people on the, you know, move their belief systems versus moving their their actions or their productivity. You know, I I think I operate from the belief that if I can change how you believe about yourself, how you believe about the Lord, how you believe about your own ability, it's not your ability itself I'm trying to lead. It's your belief in your ability. And so I kind of take it as it's it's an ad for me on the side of being the leader, it's an adventure. What can I, what can I say? What can I use? What can I uh what what examples can I give? How can my own life be an example that can help you to think differently about a situation so that you will become the person that is able to be excellent at the thing, and not necessarily training you up to do something well, but training you to be the type of person that does something well.
SPEAKER_02:Let's pause right now because you said a lot. And I think um I think it's worth kind of uh going a little deeper into, okay? So you said um you want to get people, it's about belief, right? It's about belief in your ability, not just your ability, right? Yeah, it's about the idea of becoming, right? Not necessarily doing, um and then you become the person who can do the thing, right? We've talked about this principle that Myra Golden has kind of coined, be do have, right? You become somebody who can do a thing, who can get a thing. And so um I I love this because and we were talking about a little bit about this earlier. I believe I am more geared towards helping people to do things. Um and I I I that is really more of where I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna coach you in you wanna get a thing done, this is how you need to do it. Right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um you're gonna coach somebody in you wanna get a thing done, this is who you have to be.
SPEAKER_03:I feel like I am coaching people to one discover who they are, and then to love who they are.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And that is every setting that I'm in. And you know, when I think back on it, because I think when you look at your own journey as a leader, I think you can find your own pivot point. And your your pivot point usually starts at a pain point. And for me, I was constantly being told that I wasn't, I either wasn't doing enough or that what I was doing, I wasn't doing it right. Like I wasn't doing it with the right intentions or in the right way or are are producing the right results. And when I would try to put on these actions of, okay, well, let me just go do stuff. Okay, because people are telling me I'm not doing enough. So I'm just gonna get out there and start doing, right? Or are people are telling me I don't do things in a certain way. So let me just try to do, I just try to do more stuff so that people would perceive, like, oh yeah, yeah, you finally got it, you know. But I was I felt aimless. I felt um, I felt like I was leaving me behind in the process of becoming great. That I was leaving who I was supposed to be and who was supposed to show up, that all that was showing up was kind of like this this laundry list of actions or our our behaviors are just a product. I felt like I was becoming a product and not a person. And so when I got in places of influence, um, and I um I started teaching, I taught freshman seminar classes, taught college students how to be college students for years. Um, I started doing motivational speaking, I started doing nonprofit work, I started doing campus life. Everything that I was doing, I kept emphasizing to people. I didn't want them to make the mistake that I had made, where I was just doing for the sake of doing. And so I started teaching them, I started breaking down the concepts of how do you become a person that you can admire and that you can be proud of, and that can then out of that belief produce. That's and because that that was the change, that's what made the difference in my life, was that when I became a person that recognized myself, then believed in myself, then loved myself, I began to produce real impact.
SPEAKER_02:And I and I think that's actually, I mean, I I think that's really the story of any leader who is any any good leader, healthy leader, let me say it that way. Any healthy leader is you you have you have gone through a journey of becoming before you're able to lead well. You you have to, right? And I and I I love that you are able to pinpoint that in your own journey of I didn't love myself, I was not, I didn't, I didn't see the value in just who I was. Like forget what I'm able to do, but just who I was. And the what most people do is what you try to do is to uh you know to discover your value based on what you're able to accomplish. And and that's just not that's not how you do it, but that is how most of us do it. Um what is it that what are some of the things that you as as a leader who walks with people through that? Um can you what are some of the key ways that you do that help people to do that? Like just a couple of key things that you're like it's important as a transformational leader to do uh XYZ when you are trying to help uh uh a a newer leader to discover who they are.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. It's funny because this really did become an interview of me. And like we literally said, oh yeah, no, we're not gonna do that. Then it's like, yeah, I got some really deep and pointed questions for you, Jaquita. Um, but that that's all good. That's all good. Let's go. I I enjoy it. You know, I think one of the hallmarks of a transformational leader is kind of like this individualized approach. You know, you spoke of how I've been able to maintain relationships. Um, and I would say there, they're still like it's it's it's it's no different than when they were working for me. Yeah. Right? Like I still get called basically for like one-on-ones, like, hey, yeah, queen, I'm putting a meeting on your calendar. Yeah. Like they don't work for me anymore, but they're like, I, whatever it was that you was doing, I need that. Right. And so you you recognize that one of the one of the I think tenets of transformational leadership is that you're able to sit down person by person and create almost an individualized really assessment approach, and then like kind of like an inspirational boom. Okay. Right. And so, like when you're sitting with that person, and it's almost like my mind is picking up on clues and hints and thoughts and ideas and the things that they're saying. I'm like marking that in my mind, like, okay, that's a thing, that's a thing that I can add to. That's a place where they're not believing in themselves. That's a place where there's fear, that's a place where there's doubt. That's a place where they don't even know how gifted they are right there. That could be a potential snag to who they're becoming. And all my mind is thinking is I gotta get them to their next level. Yeah. Right. And so anybody who sits in front of me, if you would like to sign up for Jaquita's coaching services, give me a talk, right? Because I feel like I'm marketing myself right here. I just said, like, but but you're really good at what you do for real. I mean, I I I I love what I do because it again, it's it's been who I am. But it's the transformational leadership style, I think, is really marked by being able to have a person sit in front of you. And the areas where they feel depleted, you you're just constantly pouring. You're like, I'm gonna water that. You know, where it says some plants, some water, but God gets to increase. I'm a waterer. Yeah, I'm gonna water whatever, whatever I can find inside of you that's good, I'm gonna water it. Yeah. And everything that comes up that would come against what I know God is trying to do in your life, I'm gonna slowly tug at it. I'm not a gutter. I know gutters. I'm not a gutter. That's not me. Okay. I'm not a gutter, but I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna keep pointing you in the direction of here's how great you can be, here's how amazing you are, here's here are the good things. And, you know, we have what every human being has what's called a negativity bias. We are biased to believe what's negative about ourselves. If you are a transformational leader, it is really easy for you to point out the good in somebody. Yeah. You know, and I also think that kind of works well for us, and it also can on the flip side work against us, right? Because we're so used to saying, but girl, you the bomb, but don't you know who you are? And don't you know you got this, this, and that. And let me tell you something. If all you do is this, this, and that, boy, you about to, you about to change the game. And it's it's much easier for me to see that than to see, you know, you really, you really struggling, you know, with some things, right? Like you got some, you have some some not, I can catch character things. I don't always catch habits. Interesting. Like I can catch, I can catch if there's something in your character. Like if you are a person that tears down other people, or if you are a person that uh that that that gives yourself the advantage over giving someone else the advantage, or you know, like I can catch character stuff, right? But if you are a person that's like, hey, I just be late sometimes. Yeah. Me too. Because that because that's not uh, you know, I I really feel like transformational leaders are likely not uh uh uh structured, timely, you know, because it takes a lot of energy to be charismatic. You know, it takes a lot of energy to to rally the people and to inspire everybody and to and to create these individualized moments for people. And so if I'm in a moment with somebody and I'm like, man, I'm about to get them to their next level, I don't really concern myself with what's happening in the next moment, right? I'm I'm staying in this moment until a thing is done. And that kind of travels throughout all of my life, right? Like staying in a moment and and not always being able to move quickly. I tell myself, I say, Jaquita, you get caught in the transitions. Like when I'm trying to be on time to something, it's the transition. In the morning, it's the transition from the bed to you know, brushing my teeth. It's the transition from brushing my teeth to putting on my clothes. That's where I lose time. Yeah. Um so I think you have to be you have to be honest with yourself. I think in all of these leadership styles, it's important that when you look at yourself as a leader, that you are honest and say, uh, I'm really great when it comes to this. But I I'm not, um, don't ask me to help you with the practical stuff. Well, I'm not gonna be the best at it.
SPEAKER_02:Again, and I we we try to say this every time, and they were they were kind of laughing at me before because they they were saying, like, you've said you probably you probably have, you've leaned towards m a lot of these, right? Talking about myself.
SPEAKER_03:You really have though.
SPEAKER_02:And I know I have. And I and I um I actually just asked one of my one of my colleagues, like, which one do you, which ones do you think, and she named three. So I I I think but I do think that as you grow in your leadership, you recognize that you have to hit it's you have to be comfortable. It may not be your pre your preference, but you've got to be comfortable in all these styles because all of these styles belong somewhere. And to your point about transformational leadership, it does not belong in a crisis. You better not try to transform nobody when when there's an emergency, right? That's not that's not that's not what it's time. It doesn't matter what yeah, well I'm sorry, it well, it just it just there's there's certain areas it doesn't belong in.
SPEAKER_03:And so if you find your not worried about your becoming, we got something to do, right?
SPEAKER_02:Like we got we gotta we got lives to save, you know what I'm saying? Like that's that's that's something we we have to you have to pivot. And I think for I think that one of the potential pitfalls for this leadership style is that well, maybe it's me. I don't know. I think it's one of those styles that is um very idealistic, uh very like highly respected in a sense. When I say ideal, I mean like who doesn't want to be known as a transformational leader? I mean, that's kind of one of those things it's like you know, I I you know, everybody would want to believe that they have that kind of influence on people at some level. Um but I and it's it's a it's a style, it's like the opposite of autocratic, right? Like nobody really wants to be associated with autocratic leadership.
SPEAKER_03:Um some people do. The real autocratic leaders love being autocratic.
SPEAKER_02:Kind of, but I think I don't know. I still think that leadership style has its, it's like it doesn't have good it has negative connotations. Yeah, so I'm saying I I don't think I don't think most people most people would be like, yeah, I'm proud to be an autocratic leader. I don't I don't think that's happening, but I think a lot of people would probably say more people would lean to like I'm proud of being a transformational leader.
SPEAKER_03:And I transformational and servant. I can see that.
SPEAKER_02:For sure, yes. So my so so I think that with with those types of leadership styles, we have to be aware of the pitfalls even more so because they can be glorified in a way that makes you not feel like you need to pivot. You know what I mean? And so yeah, um I think one of the one of the thing one of the things that you were just kind of describing, um the idea of getting lost in the transitions, right? Um, that could be a potential pitfall. Um uh uh being able to uh timeliness and in in in in the sense of okay, we have we have deadlines we gotta meet, right? Like those types of things, right? Like it's like those things have to happen um when you are those things might have to happen when you're leading. And so if we if we glorify this particular leadership style in a way that um uh kind of puts to the back burner these very important moments, then we then we've really we we've we've misused it, right? And um, and so I think I think it's important, like you said, to be honest about what I'm what I lean towards and what I what I'm what I'm good at, what I'm not, where I need to grow, where I don't. Um and and also when I need to take a step back, right? Like we've talked about before. It's not my moment. Let me let somebody else take it, take the reins, because this ain't really what I do. Um, that's why that's why partnerships are so important.
SPEAKER_03:Um I will say yes to that. And part of your development is going to, you know, like I don't think you can just say, hey, all right, I'm a transformational leader, I gotta step back, all right, and we need an authoritarian. No, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_02:Part of your development is learning how to pivot.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you have to learn how to pivot. And I think that's with any of your leadership styles. And I'm hoping that through the series that people are listening and they have found the one that I that they identify with the most. But I'm also hoping that they're realizing that there are situations that they can, you know, think about through their own leadership where they're like, man, if I had moved to a democratic leadership style right there, yeah, I probably would have had a better result. Or if I had, you know, just moved for just a moment and and in that emergency situation, not try to say, all right, guys, what do you think? But instead taking more of an authoritarian approach, you know. And I think, but I do think you have to build your team up to handle your shifts as a leader. You know, it's like when when you start flipping on people, yeah, you know what I'm saying, like they're gonna be like, excuse you, like if you get, if you become author authoritarian, like right, like let's say, again, transformational leadership. I'm much more concerned about who you're becoming as a person, what you're you know, what you're growing into, your character, how that's being built. You know, I I used to teach that character is neither uh good nor bad. It's either uh developed or undeveloped. Like there are areas in your life that you have just never paid any attention to. Um, and you got to work that muscle. And so, you know, I'm always trying to find, you know, like what are the what are the character points in their life that I can help with. But and also, you know, there are I I would say one of the uh I wouldn't call it a weakness, but I think one of the one of the things that transformational leaders have to be well have to be very aware of is that because you are inspirational, motivational, you know, and you are rallying, you know, you can create energy in a room. You can create energy for for a vision. You know, there we're very vision focused and very future focused because I'm always thinking about your next step, right? You as a public figure, you are gonna be responsible not just for the character development of the team, but you are gonna have to consistently make sure that you in your own personal life are walking the walk that will help that will continue to help you be able to help others walk the walk. For sure. You know, I was like I was telling you, I was able to guide people through the life transitions that I myself went through and mastered, right? And then I, as a because I'm transformational, when I get to a point where I'm like, okay, I've mastered something. And then I'm like, man, I feel good about that. Immediately the people come. Yeah. Here come the people. When I mastered being a uh director of campus life, I switched jobs and now I'm overseeing people who are trying to learn what I had to develop through, right? And because I think one of the biggest pieces of being a transformational leader is that I'm able, because I walk through it, I'm able to break it down in a way that gives you stepping stones for you to move forward into it versus just instructions. Yeah. And I think that's different. Um But even right now in my life, you know, Ruth, I've been telling you, I'm like, I don't really feel like much of a leader. Yeah. You know, I don't have a team. Yeah. You know, I'm out here in these streets, just task-oriented all day. Just, you know, I I have one grad intern, and and and without him, I wouldn't make it. Um, but I was telling him today, I was like, man, I'm just so glad we got so much done because I'm my my to-do list was so long, and I'm not used to that. Okay, I'm transformational. I want to inspire. Okay, I don't want to be sitting here with these to-do lists every day. Yeah. People want me, you know, people keep sending me forms. I'm like, that is like my worst nightmare. Stop sending me spreadsheets. Uh-huh. Stop sitting, stop. Don't tell me that I need to learn how to do something else on this computer. Get me away from this office. You know, I I do love, I love my team. I love what I do. Not my team, I'm a part of a team. Now I'm not over a team. But I I even from this conversation now, I realize that I'm in the process. You will your life will be cyclical, right? I'm in a process where it's like, hey, Jaquita, master this. Master this, and then the people will come. Right. And so you have to go through these uh quote unquote dry seasons. Yeah. Where it's just like, oh, okay, I'm learning now.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think I think that's really good. You saying because it's so important for a transformational leader to go through the process before you lead others to it or through it. Like that, that's but that's part of it, right? And I think I think that is a really important uh point and an important thing that you have realized about your journey is like, hey, I I have to, there's a reason I'm going through this. I realize that when I get when I go through things, it's not just for me, it's for the people coming later, right? Behind this.
SPEAKER_03:And it makes you it makes you go through different things.
SPEAKER_02:It does, I bet it does.
SPEAKER_03:It causes you to go through differently because you realize one day I'm gonna have to teach somebody how to do this. Yep. You know, one day I'm gonna I'm gonna have to and I'm gonna have to be able to motivate them through through moments that I didn't feel motivated. And you know, I think that and I and I I think that's just something important for everyone in each of these leadership styles to to think back on is because there's something that you are. Experiencing that is part of leadership. Leadership is passing something along, passing something down. You know, you don't get to be a leader and hold all the nuggets to yourself. That's right. You know, if you are a leader that only pushes people to accomplish something, and and you don't, they don't leave saying, hey, my leader gave me this, versus my leader, uh, me and my leader just accomplished this, right? They need it from your example, whether it's from your example, whether it's from your wisdom, whether it's from, you know, whatever you've been able to share with them, you they need to be able to say, in a time where they're no longer in your presence, they need to be able to say, I left with something.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. And with that, I think that one of the other potential issues with um with transformational leadership because it's such a personal way of leading, there, there, there sometimes you can find yourself um uh having very um undefined boundaries. Right. Um, I think you have to be very clear on your your presence in people's lives. Um because the desire, I mean, I think it takes vulnerability to lead in this way. It takes a higher degree of vulnerability, if you will. I think it also it takes a higher degree of transparency and a higher degree of process, personal process. So people are kind of up close, right? It's it's a it's a very um discipleship oriented, you know, um kind of uh to me. That's kind of what I'm I'm liking it to. Like it's a discipleship-oriented leadership style. So you're up close and personal with people, right? Um, and I would say in the moments where I lean towards this style, because I do it sometimes. It's not my primary one, but I lean there sometimes.
SPEAKER_03:Um you lean through the whole spectrum.
SPEAKER_02:Well, you know what? You got to. Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Ruth said I'm an all-around leader. You got to. What do you want me to do? Well rounded.
SPEAKER_02:Whatever. Um, but I I do think that creating boundaries is going to be really important. Right. And recognizing, okay, when is when what what to share, what not to share about my process, what what to um, you know, how to relate right in a way that is still um in a way that's still going to um create the proper separation in our relationship. Right. Um, I think, I think those things can be, they can become I I find myself struggling with that to some degree. As you get more comfortable being vulnerable in general, yeah um, it can be it can be a little tricky.
SPEAKER_03:What do you do, do you have like uh methods that you use to um sure. I think one thing, as you were talking, I realized that I think one thing that a transformational leader could find themselves ensnared in is uh having preferences, like having preferred people that they lead on the team and creating an atmosphere where you have favorites. Yep, right, and sometimes those favorites are favorites because they actually listen, right? And they and they they respond well to your leadership style. And so you just like look at them go. Y'all see that baby go because he listened, all right? Because they took what I said, all right, and they're becoming, right? And I'm watching them becoming, and that energizes me, right, right, that excites me, right? And so I want to spend more time and more energy on this person that's catching on, and then sometimes you can create kind of like an a complete opposite effect with someone that's not catching on. Sure. And because maybe they don't respond as much to your inspirational, yeah, you know, and they're just like, all right, I was inspired, but you didn't give me any structure. Yeah, yeah. I was inspired, but there was no follow-through. Yeah. I I was inspired, but I I I don't I don't really uh I don't know what to do. Like you didn't give me any any a to-do list or you know what I'm saying? And so I think that uh yes, boundaries, like I've had to create, because boundaries keep you from exerting uh kind of the privilege of preference, right? Because all leaders, especially, I mean, and not just leaders, but parents, pastors, uh, you know, leaders just in teachers in classrooms, you know, like you if if somebody pulled you to the side and be like, I know you got a favorite, go hands up, who you favor? Everybody's got a favorite. Yeah. Because, and a lot of times, what we're what we're considering our favorite to be are what we also, what was that movie? Well, that was like, you know, it was, I can't remember what movie, but it was a parent talking to a child, and they were like, you know, you favored the other one. They was like, no, he was just easier. You are always dramatic and always mean and always da-da-da-da-da. You know, and we have to be mindful that we're not we're not allowing the people who seem easier to monopolize our time, our energy, and our resources. Um, and so I think some some good boundaries to put up is to make sure you are giving equal amounts of energy, effort, time, support, all of that to your team members. Yeah. Um, and creating atmospheres where everyone feels safe. Yeah. Um, and I also think for me, when I had my first, let's just call it my first team, um, when I first started working in campus life, um, you know, they were students. And so they were, they were students, but they were also my mentees. And at the time, I had just, I was just around, you know, early to mid 30s. So, you know, I was auntie. And it's so easy to create these really, really close bonds. Though they still mine to this day. Like, but you know what? I I made sure uh some ways that I kept myself accountable was that one, I made sure I spent time with my people.
SPEAKER_02:I was literally crazy. I was literally, I was about to say, you gotta know the difference between the them and your peers. They're not your peers. Yes, they're not your peers. They are not your peers.
SPEAKER_03:And that's now they are, I love them. Of course. Like my my entire heart loves them, right? But I I it it would be easy and for a while, because you know, I had them during the pandemic. And, you know, I live alone and we were going to work, and I told them, I was like, all right, work is gonna be a safe space. You know, we're gonna count this as a as a, you know, safe clouded space as long because they all were best friends, so they all were around each other all the time. And I was by myself, and my admin, it was just her and her husband. I was like, all right, as long as y'all, you know, don't go anywhere. Now, if you go somewhere, you know, let me know, and then you can just have a few days. I I'll give you your time, but don't come in here, you know, right? And so, but you know, it it caused us to really, really like dawn. Yeah, right. And so I had to make sure that I was being mindful to write, like not allow Jaquita to become enmeshed in only being mentor and you know, yeah, uh mother figure, you know, like you know, and and so I I created those boundaries by one, maintaining my life outside of work and outside of this these wonderful babies that I still love to this day. Also, I created community with their communities. That's good, right? And that I had the ability to do that with them, right? So their moms, I was not, this ain't a competition. I'm not, you know, like their moms were like, oh yeah, that's your college mom. And I was like, but this is your baby. Yeah, yeah, you know, this this baby is yours, and I'm not trying to monopolize them, which I think as a transformational leader is easy to do. I also think a boundary, ooh, a boundary that you as a transformational leader or as any type of leader, you have to be mindful of, is you have to know, you have to be ever mindful of what are the weak points in your life that you can use this situation to fill up. And you have to be mindful to create boundaries around your own weaknesses, right? So at the time, you know, early 30s, unmarried, pandemic, I was lonely. I'm like, you know, you know how people be like, you're not lonely, you're alone, you know. Yeah, no, you know, I was like, man, where the people at? You know, I ain't got I'm a very sociable person. I'm an extrovert, yeah, you know, and I needed people interaction, and they were hilarious. And you know, we had a great time, and I enjoyed my time with them, but I had to make sure there were moments where I was like, okay, Juita, create boundaries around you, uh, around your need because your need is becoming wrapped up in your leadership. And the moment you do that, you are going to start monopolizing the situation. You're gonna start uh twisting the situation so that it serves you. You know, you're gonna be like, hey guys, we're gonna have a game night.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. You wanna hang out, you know?
SPEAKER_03:Yep, right, and and now you're overreaching. Yep. Now you're overreaching. And so, and and you're gonna need to backpedal from that. Um, and so you have to be mindful of that. If you are a person that needs to feel important, and you know that that's something that that that runs in you, right? You gotta be mindful that you're not using the people that you serve to fill that void in your life.
SPEAKER_02:Man, look, that's man, that's so dangerous. You can't how do they say it? Uh you can't need the people you lead. But there's something, there's another way they say it. Um but yes, you can't need the people you lead. You can't you can't need them in that way. Um, I think I think another way to think about what you're saying is to stay mission focused. Like there's a mission as a leader, and if you stay focused on that and not focused on how, you know, kind of the things that you were just describing, how things are leading you, the weaknesses, the things that you're trying to, you know, the void you might be trying to fill, or be overly, uh, overly focused on um kind of people in the sense of because I I don't know, I think it's it can be it's it's gotta be frustrating if well let me say it has been frustrating to me, certainly, right? When you do pour and you don't see change, there is it's not being receptive, re receive, right? You don't you don't see that. And as opposed to allowing you to be frustrated, focus on the mission. So what what's the mission that you have as a transformational leader? What is that? And and I think the other the other thing is understanding and remembering no one is anyone's only one, right?
SPEAKER_03:That's the one right there.
SPEAKER_02:No one is anyone's only one, you are no one's only leader, and you are no one's only transformational leader, so the transformation that you may uh have with somebody else, you may get to a point, but you may not finish the process with them. Yeah, and so understand and be very clear on your mission as a transformation transformational leader in their life. And it may not become they may not become all that they can be with you, but it doesn't mean that you're not so like if you have somebody who's a little bit more resistant, it's okay. You're it doesn't mean that your leadership is not effective, it just means that it's trans transforming something differently in them than it is somebody else. It also means that you may not actually see it. Because I I truly believe like once people have been exposed to something, you can't be unexposed. Once you see something, you can't unsee it. So, you know, even for the people who have kind of come underneath your leadership and it doesn't, it feels like there was resistance or it feels like there was tension or it feels like there wasn't really much change. I don't believe that that's I believe change actually did happen. They just may not have wanted to acknowledge it.
SPEAKER_03:Listen, and that uh a couple of things you said, everything you said was great, but a couple of things. One, another thing I think that transformational leaders can and should do is build community with other leaders that can support your your your team. Yeah, uh-huh. Yes, absolutely. And I realized that mostly when I worked with my students, I had mostly male students that I was I was mentoring. And to this day, they they again they're mine, and they like we know that. Like everybody know that. But I was like, y'all need a guy. Yep, that's good. You know what I'm saying? Because I honestly sometimes I was just like, uh, get them a guy, you know. Um, y'all need a guy. And I also realized when I knew I was leaving um and that I was gonna be at a different school, uh, I I wanted them, I wanted them to have someone that would care for them like I cared for them and give them something different because everybody's not gonna get everything they need from me. No, and I recognize that. But here's the thing because I think another, I think another thing that transformational leaders are big on is the idea of respect because I hold you in such a high regard. Right? I I'm I'm constantly thinking about how wonderful you are and all of the great things that um that you have. Yeah, it is difficult when I feel disrespected or when I feel disregarded. Yeah. That becomes a high pain point because it's like I spend so much time seeing you and you don't see me, you know, and so I think uh for me as a leader, things that I've had to learn, I've had to learn how to hold hold people's quote unquote allegiance loosely. Yeah. Like, right? Like, like you don't have to, you don't have to, you don't have to, you know, allege your your you know, your followership to me, right? Like, but I know that there are moments, I know what I'm called to do in someone's life. I may not always know what I'm called to do for a mission. Now I am very mission-focused. Like I want to be great. I want us to go out there because I really believe that great people produce great results, right? And so all the work that I've been doing on my character, on our character as a team, and on each individual on the team, is gone, it ain't got no choice but to produce something amazing, you know. But but I am, I'm always like pushing for, you know, for people to be better and for people to get to their next spots. Um, and I think there's a lot of it, you know, I'm I I know that we're we're talking about me, but I think there's a lot of examples of transformational leadership. I think when, you know what I think would be good for everybody if you just think back in your mind, like who was my favorite teacher and why? And I think you might be able to relate them to one of these leadership styles. Yeah. They may not all be transformational, but I think that would be a really good idea. Or who is your favorite leader? Like somebody whose leadership you really respect and really think well of. Um, because a lot of times, you know, and I think that that that could be the beginning of discovering what your pain point was. You know, I I I really I think that this is important that as we're thinking about not just what type of leader we we are, but I think we have to move from leadership style to like to what is my mission, right? Because Ruth Abigail, you and I could have the same mission. Like we could both want to produce great people who do great things, you know. Like we could have the same mission, but we're gonna approach it completely differently. That's right. No, for sure. But I I think it I just think it's important um in your reflection, think about the people who have made a difference in your life, yeah, in your world, and what did you notice about them? What did you like about them? Um even as, you know, as I think about, you know, just leaders in general who have had just a great deal of impact um in the world, you know, like we talk, we've talked about MLK, you know, um, I I'm I'm real big on civil rights, you know. Like I just I don't know why I took so many civil rights classes. It just kind of happened.
SPEAKER_02:You did. You did.
SPEAKER_03:You know, I it just kind of happened and and I enjoy knowing that stuff. But when you think about people who have had national impact in the world, right? And and you think about, you know, people who we celebrate their speeches and their ability to really be able to motivate the country to move in a different direction. You know, I think like Abraham Lincoln, you know, like at a time where the world, the the country was torn on what to do on the issue of slavery, what to do on the issue of of difference, right? You know, I think that he is noted for his ability to use his voice to inspire and to motivate and to rebuild the character of the nation. Yeah. I think he was a catalyst. I don't think he did it all, but I think I think he was one of those catalysts, one of those moving points that helped to transition us. And I think that that's transformational leadership. It is oftentimes a catalyst um that helps to move an organization, a company, a country in in a uh in an inspired path forward.
SPEAKER_02:I think you're right. And I think that's honestly, I think that's it. Yeah. I think you ended it. Unless you asked, I because I I I don't want to I I think that was a good I think that was a good wrap-up of of because I agree. I think it's you're inspiring motivation forward. Like that's that's what it is, and but that starts from within. Like it doesn't start from yeah, the actual production of a thing, it starts from you. Starts from you.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I just thought of another weakness. I I can name weaknesses all day, yeah because I've I have lived this life, but you know, I remember I was working uh at an organization, I was about to call it, but I ain't. But I one of my favorite, one of my favorite co-workers, Penny. Um, and I remember I used to just, oh, I used to just compliment her so much because I loved Penny. I still love Penny. I I need to reconnect with Penny. Um I used to compliment her so much, and she would just, she looked at me and she said, You have a silver tongue. She said, You just have you have an ability to just say things in a way that just makes people feel good. But I also realized when she said it, I was like, I don't know that she trusts it now. Dang. Because maybe she thinks that like this is just I don't think she meant it in a bad way. Right. But I think she would but the way she said it, it stuck with me because I was like, oh, you know, because I'm complimentary, I'm always thinking about the good. I'm always, but if you start you, you can also anything that you do well can also be used in a way that's destructive. And you can become manipulative, you can become, you can start lauding people and inspiring people to do things because you think it's right and not because it's what's right. Um, you can become, if you get to a place where you are looking, where you are thinking more about how do I advance myself versus how do I advance the team, you will find yourself easily falling into manipulative behaviors. For sure. Oh Lord. And I think that that is something that as a person that anybody who is set over people and you are and you have that much of an impact that people come to you and say, Hey, you know, what what what do you see in me? How can I move forward? What do I need? Yeah and you are because they're not just letting you into their work person, they're letting you into into their own person, yeah. Into their whole person, right? And and you with uh great responsibility, right? With with great access comes great responsibility to whom much is given, much is required. You are going to have to focus on your own character development. For sure. Because you have to be a person of integrity. Yes. If you are not, you're gonna be one of them people that we watching in one of them.
SPEAKER_02:I really think, I mean, I promise you, I'm sitting here thinking about cult leaders. Like, that's how that's how PP Safety is. That's transformational leadership gone wrong. Like you, you, you have, you have, you have effectively captured the personhood of somebody so much so that they will follow you into death um based just based on your word, right? And it's like that's scary, but you're right that it because that is true. Um you we gotta be careful that that kind of influence you have on people because when you begin to uh it's uh when you be when you begin to influence people towards uh towards a self that they that they believe is a better self, then you do unlock a certain power that you have and influence you have with a person. And and and if you if you if that becomes a self-serving mechanism, it will destroy people. It will destroy people. And um, and I think that's it's something we have to be very and I love that I love the job. I'm glad you brought that up because it's something we as leaders have to be so careful about. You and that's why I'm sorry. Well, you don't realize I'm so mm mm, I'm sorry. No, no, you were in the mo you were in it, you were in it. Go ahead. No, okay, I I'm telling you this. It you don't realize even uh you your your voice in a in a moment, right? That's why that that's why I the one of the best advice I've heard as far as being a leader is always be the last person to speak. Don't ever be the first person in a room because it it doesn't really give other people room. Once because you you have a you you are who you are. People understand that. Um if you if you are the first person to speak all the time, you shut down the minds of people. And I have to learn, I have to learn this. This is something I've you know, I've had to really but you shut down other people's minds because they they have they look to you and you don't realize how and you could be the most humble servant person in the world, but at the end of the day, they understand the weight that your voice has. So if you if you are too are you if you are too overly focused on your own voice, then you will squash down the voices of others, and eventually they won't have anything to say.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. Um and an image just came to mind, uh biblical image, if you will, with me. Uh go to the book of uh Exodus. Um and just thinking about Moses and how Moses had that rod, and when the Lord, right before he went to go speak to Pharaoh, the Lord was like, hey, put down your rod. You know, put down what you what what gives you power, yeah, what gives you strength, what what what is your thing, put it down, right? And I think that as leaders, one, you have to be willing to let people go, right? When it's time, when when when it's time to release them, release them. Yep. When they have found shelter and safety and and a covering with someone else, let them, right? And I think also you have to be willing to not be the most important person in the room. Man, look. Even when you outrank everybody else, come on, right? Just because I'm a transformational, and I think what really worked for me with my teams is that I allowed who they were to impact me as well. You know, I had one person, he, you know, he was on his stuff, he was organized, he was structured, he had his stuff together. I allowed that to impact me. Yeah, right. I had another person who was very process-oriented, could create a new process, a new structure, a new uh strategy in a minute. I allowed that to impact me. I had one who was really, really sensitive, right? And and and cared about people. And and not just cared about people like I want them to be better, cared about people's wellness and and and them feeling like they were in safe spaces. I allowed that to impact me, right? Just because you are the leader does not mean that your team does not add value to you as well. They should. And when we create these situations where it's a unilateral, you know, it only goes one way, you know, and nobody gets to feed up. That's why, that's why those teams end up breaking. And that's why, that's why vision gets lost. Yes. Um, because in the end, we all need each other. Every joint supplies, it's a circle. Leadership as a circle. Leadership is a circle. We need to put that on a shirt.
SPEAKER_02:Ah, that's that needs to go on a shirt. I like that. Leadership is a circle, man.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, we'll edit that out. We don't need nobody to steal our idea.
SPEAKER_02:And back to the regular schedule program. Um, yeah, no, I I I think we we really do have to remember when it's uh like when it's my turn. Let's uh you like when it's and when when I influence, when you influence. We good great healthy leadership builds up leadership in other people. And um, and I think this this this leadership style is a is a great opportunity to do that, right? In the right moments, in the right season, it is gold, right? Um, and and and I think it's worth leaning into so that when other seasons come and you need people that are elevating at a higher level, you've done the work with them for them to be able to do that. Um and so I think that is I think that's really crucial.
SPEAKER_03:I love to see it.
SPEAKER_02:There you go. Now we're done.
SPEAKER_03:Now we're done. Hey friends, yeah. I you know, yeah, we want it ain't over till till we feel the peace. And I you know, I know Joy is like another nine minutes of content is what you felt. Um listen, okay. We want to thank y'all for rocking with us through all the leadership styles. I think we got a few more. Um two more. Two more two more. Three more two more. Two more. Two more. Two more. Um, but hopefully you've you found a lot of value and uh and hopefully, hopefully you have found home with something that we've said.
SPEAKER_02:Home. Home. Hopefully you have. And hopefully you've unlearned some things. Um, and uh we are all unlearning. And I'm sorry, producer Joy is throwing me off completely at whatever she's doing.
SPEAKER_03:It's it's doing the exact opposite of what she wants it to do. You know, I'm so confused. Neither Ruth nor I are good at sign language. No. Our reading lips.
SPEAKER_02:Sorry, you're gonna have to make it plain. But um, we again, uh, we we love you guys and we love doing this with you guys. And um, we will see you next week. But until then. We're gonna keep unlearning together so that we can experience more freedom. Thank you once again for listening to the Unlearned Podcast. We would love to hear your comments and your feedback about the episode. Feel free to follow us on Facebook and Instagram and to let us know what you think. We're looking forward to the next time when we are able to unlearn together to move forward towards freedom. See you then.
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