The UnlearnT Podcast
The UnlearnT Podcast is designed to help you gain the courage to change your mind about things you never thought you would change your mind about. Our hope is that you will begin to move towards a life of freedom after hearing stories from individuals who have chosen to unlearn some things in their lives.
The UnlearnT Podcast
What's Your Leadership Style: Unlearning Situational Leadership
We explore situational leadership with clear lines between crisis control and season-long guidance, naming the hero trap, burnout, and how to build trust, culture, and vision by developing people. Practical tools include better questions, motivation cues, and when to let safe balls drop.
• definition of situational leadership and core traits
• when authoritarian direction fits emergencies
• risks to trust, culture and long-term vision
• burnout and the hero trap of constant rescuing
• delegating authority vs over-supporting tasks
• reading individual motivation and wiring
• ask what and how instead of do and have
• judging character fairly vs mirroring yourself
• safe arenas for failure, feedback and growth
• achievers stepping back, mission-minded stepping forward
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Yo, what's up, everybody? And welcome once again to the Unlearned Podcast. I'm your host, Ruth Abigail, aka R A. What's up, friends? It's your girl, Jaquita. And this is the podcast that is helping you gain the courage to change your mind so that you can experience more freedom. Freedom.
SPEAKER_00:Freedom. Listen, um, Ruth Abigail, how's it going out there in those Memphis streets? Memphis is great.
SPEAKER_02:Memphis is good. Memphis is great. You know what I'm saying? What we do is what we do out here, you know what I'm saying? Um, I know.
SPEAKER_00:Y'all do a lot. I know. But you know, I I just recently talked to a friend who is, I think, moving to Memphis. Really? Actually, and Memphis is the city that I think I brag on the most. And Chicago. I love Chicago. But whenever somebody's like, yeah, I think I'm gonna go visit Memphis, I'm like, you're gonna have a great time. And you're gonna eat so well. Very good. But stay safe. Okay, but don't do that. Don't do that.
SPEAKER_02:See, don't do that. So don't do that because you ain't no need to add that last part. Okay. It ain't, it ain't, it's fine. You be all right. You just as safe in other places as you is here, okay? Just be smart. You need that's what you need to tell people. Be smart. You know what you know.
SPEAKER_00:You know what we don't tell people to do when they come to South Carolina? Like, hey, all right, you need to be wise in the streets. You do though, right? You need to make smart, you need to make smart decisions. Nobody gives that disclaimer. No. You should. You got crazy people everywhere. You should. You got crazy people everywhere. You tripping. No. Nevertheless. Uh, you know, I think it's funny before we uh before we press play on the podcast today, we were talking about how these middle adult bodies don't do what they used to do. They don't. Um but you know, one thing I am grateful, the body does not do what it used to do, but I do feel like the mind and the heart are getting sharper. Absolutely. You know, um and I think that it's a great segue in thinking about how we kind of age through like how our body works and what what works for us. Even in our leadership style, I think this leadership style today, I'm good at what I do, baby. I'm good at what I'm doing. Okay, but I think that this leadership style is definitely one that comes with that level of maturity and that level of understanding. Um, so as you guys know, we've been talking about all of the different leadership styles. We are actually on the last one two. Last one, guys. Last one. Um, and it's one that I think, you know, I'm glad we saved it for last because it's the one that can kind of pick and choose from all of them and kind of make informed decisions in the moment. But we're gonna talk about some of the strengths and weaknesses of that today, guys. We're talking about situational leadership. Situational leadership. Situation a leadership for every a leader for every situation. You don't even know the song, do you? I do not. I wasn't paying attention. Never mind. Anyways, we're talking about situational leadership.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we're talking about situational leadership, and so uh to get us started, um this is the definition for those of you, it's actually it's pretty like self-explanatory, um, but it's good to kind of just read it and get a get a baseline uh of really what it is. So it's a leadership style where they're where the leader adapts their approach based on the current work environment and needs of their team. All right. It's characterized by flexibility and the ability to uh the ability to be directive and supportive, depending on the followers' individual needs and developmental levels. All right. Um, so it's a situational leader is very aware of their team. They're they're very keen to who they are and what they need um and to whatever situation is at hand. You have to be a pretty um observant uh person. You have to be a discerning person to do this well, um, and you have to be, like it said, flexible to do this well. And so um that is uh that is what situational leadership is. Is this uh a style that you uh have experienced either as a leader or on the other side of it, having a leader who did this?
SPEAKER_00:I definitely think, and this is why I was talking about like it's something that I feel like most people grow into. Um, because it's it you will get to a point in your leadership where you think you're killing it, and then that one person that you're leading is like, this doesn't work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're like, what you mean? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Okay, I have been working on being this type of leader, you know, and then you get to a point where it's okay, you have to expand how you're offering leadership to the people that you lead. And so um I definitely think that that has happened to me where I realized that I needed to adapt my leadership style, um, not just for the situations that were coming up, because I do think that like in the work that I used to do, especially in the involvement world, stuff is always coming up. You know, and I work at a pretty high profile school, and I was like, Lord, if something happens, we might end up in the news or something, you know. Yeah. When I worked at, when I worked at, you know, technical colleges and stuff, I never worried that somebody was gonna come with a news camp. That's a fair point. I was never concerned about that, but you know, I I had to be on my toes. And so I had to be ready to respond for any different type of situation that came up. And I think that that uh I think that situational leadership, much like um, what was the one that we said was good with authoritative? Okay um, like I think that these can be really good at helping people to navigate difficult times.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because you're able to kind of tailor make not emergent times though.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, emergency, you need that authoritarian person who's gonna be like, hey, everybody hush. Yeah, listen to my voice. I'm gonna get us where we need to go. Yeah. Right. But I think situational leadership can lead you through a season.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And and lead you and lead an organization through a tough time where we have to pivot and make changes and are where somebody on the team needs something that's different from everyone else. Like I think situational leadership was built for those times. And so, yes, I have both employed and experienced it.
SPEAKER_01:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02:Um, yeah, I have uh I in my tenure where I am now, I've had two in the last five or six years. Almost tenure. Gosh, is that six years? Almost six years. Um I uh I've had two very, very different types of teams. Um and so that has required some pretty intense situational leadership. And that the the pivot of um of of leading one way based on this team, and then pretty, you know, abrupt in some ways fairly abruptly shifting, right? And having to really lead a very different way because I have a very different team. Um and I think that as a leader, to be honest with you, there's a part of me, and I'm just now kind of coming to this it like in this moment, there's a part of me that feels like I'm still learning who I am as a leader because of that. Yes, you know what I mean? No, no, I get that.
SPEAKER_00:I do get that. Yeah, yeah. I think and here and I think here's the challenge for everyone. And you know, we're gonna have a special segment soon where I think we'll be able to dig a little bit deeper into this, is that the leadership style is the beginning. It is the beginning of understanding who you are as a leader. For sure, you know, like knowing where you primarily sit, um, and and knowing your approach to things, I think is the beginning of understanding who you are, but you have to link that. You have to link style to purpose, right? And purpose, purpose is not um, purpose is not I have a purpose in a thing, right? Purpose is something that I carry with me everywhere that I go. That's right. And so you have to be able to link style with purpose, with values, like there's there's more to discover. Um, yeah, there's yeah, yeah. And it all works together.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it does. And I think um to that to that point, I'm glad you said that. Because uh especially like, you know, um with this, with this particular leadership style, if if you're not careful, and this is one of the downfalls to it, it can as as confusing as it might be to you, it's gonna also be confusing to your team. And so, because you if you're on if you're always only responsive, which is what this style really is, you're responding to what you see and what you need to do a lot of times, right? But if that's kind of your your um, if that's your MO, I'm gonna, I'm gonna respond to what I see, and that's what I'm gonna do how I'm gonna operate, then it's gonna be really hard to do two things. It's gonna be hard to establish trust and it's gonna be hard to establish culture.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Um I'd also like to say it it may be difficult to establish long-term vision.
SPEAKER_02:For sure.
SPEAKER_00:Because you're always in the moment.
SPEAKER_02:Because you're always in the moment. And and so I think that so you're it's gonna be hard to establish trust, culture, and long-term vision, and if if you cut if you stay in this style. What one thing is I will say having lived in this style um for for for a while, um it it becomes it can be it can become comfortable because it really re it doesn't require as much preparation, right? And doesn't it doesn't require as much um you can improv. Yeah, I mean, you kind of just you know, you just okay, what's going on? Okay, you just you're just responding, you're putting out fires or you are, you know, um, you're just you're living for the next thing, you're living for the next moment. And I also think it be it becomes performative. Um, and so you also for me now I'm a in an Enneagram, I'm a three. Uh so that is my I'm a that I'm a performer, I'm a worker, I'm a performer. That's what I do. So I'll be honest, this style can also kind of um if if I'm not careful, can uh I can easily become the star of the show, right? Um as a leader. And as a leader, if you're a healthy leader, you don't need to be the star of the show. You aren't the star, you're you have a team and you all work together. Like we said, leadership is not a ladder, it's a circle. So everybody's got their turn. And if you if you are if you do not, if you're not careful about being a a situation, if you if you're not careful about being um discerning as to when to use this particular style, then you can kind of be the one to save the day, or you could be the one that is like, oh, you know, he or she really knows me, she gets me, you become the star, you become the the leader that every individual really appreciates.
SPEAKER_00:But this is so good.
SPEAKER_02:You don't necessarily bring together and build, you're not building something that's cohesive.
SPEAKER_00:And you don't, okay, a couple of things, because I think that that this leadership style has kind of like a superhero kind of cast on it, you know, like Superman, you know, it's like Spider-Man chilling in his house and he's like, oh Lord, something happening. Right. You know, let me get let me get the soup, right? Let me come out, you know, let me do the things, you know, so I can save the day again, you know. And I think that we have to, we have to make sure our job as leaders, well, it can vary. But I'm gonna say from my perspective, your job as leader, as a leader is to build the next set of leaders. Yeah, I agree. I agree. You are, you are, and and uh sometimes, a lot of times, that means not saving the day, but allowing the team to develop into the people that can do the thing. Which sometimes not just you, you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_02:You're gonna have to let stuff fall.
SPEAKER_00:You're gonna have boy, and that situational leadership style, I think is I think it's probably hardest for them to do that. For sure. Yeah. I think because they are you you make it seem like you have delegated authority, yeah, but you're watching it so closely that you're always on top of, you know, you're hyper-aware of what people are doing, if they're doing it well, if your team is performing, if you're meeting metrics and goals, if you're following the rules, you know, that you're so on top of it that nobody can get from up under you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's good. I'm sorry, because I've been there. Uh yeah. And you think because the team is has met a goal, or that we avoided um, you know, catastrophe, or that something went really well and that something didn't go really wrong, that you have done a great job as a leader. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you get to make a report that says, hey, my team has done well. We we we had a situation, but it got handled. But people under you are not developed. Yes. They they leave with no knowledge, no experience, no, uh, they've built no muscle because every time there was a weight in their hand, you either walk them through it, right? It says you can be directive or supportive. You either directed them through it and didn't let them figure it out themselves, or you over-supported to the point where you were doing the work. Yeah. Um and then, sorry, because I think that the other thing that happens is that you're so busy running to all of the fires, and now you're burnt out. Man, come on. That's real. That's that's but you burnt out because you took the responsibility, you became a firefighter. That's right. And that's that that wasn't your job. That's right. That's right. There is there is order and protocol for a reason. And I'm sorry, it's all coming to me right now. One, let me stay on the burnout part. You run in the fires that aren't yours to fix. Everything that you see is not your thing to fix. Yeah. It's not your fire to put out, and every fire that you see is not gonna burn down the whole building. You know, you take a situation and now it's blown up because you're you are very situation focused. That's right. And you think because you can see the situation, situation so clearly, you you think you see the whole picture. But you're looking at the you're looking at the situation and you're not looking at the people. You have firefighters on your team, but you keep taking the holes out of their hands. That's right. Yeah. You have you have people who can do it honestly better than you. Mm-hmm. Who can, and I'm not talking about doing the work, right? Because any, let's let's just be honest. Anybody can do the work. Yeah. Usually when it comes to, I mean, they may not be able to do it as well as some other people. But you can put somebody there and say, hey, do A, B, and C, right? And they can get it done. But the reason why we have specific jobs for specific people is because people are anointed and gifted to do certain things. Yeah. And you have, and they can take something to the next level that you can't. That's right. But every time you step in and you say, Okay, I know what I know what we need to do. Everybody follow, you know, here's the solution. You're always giving solutions, you're always giving answers, but you you're not empowering and strengthening your people to grow.
SPEAKER_02:One of my um, one of my team members challenges me on that, and I and I appreciate that, because I I I definitely lean in that direction. Like I I I um I lean in that direction. You know, you you partly because you just want it to be, you want the whatever it is you're doing to be right. Um sometimes sometimes, and and this is a tough, this is a tough tension I deal with. Um sometimes there is a lack of trust because there are, you know, there there are moments. Like, actually, I don't trust you. I mean, sometimes I don't, if I'm just being honest. Like, sometimes, and and I it's you know it's not it sometimes it's just a matter of like believing that people the growth is real and that what they did before they won't do again. Now you have to you have to believe that, right? Uh because I've been in situations where you know you have team members who drop the ball, right? And it's it comes back around. And the question is, are you going to take the risk of them dropping the ball again? Or are you gonna trust that they they are gonna handle it? And sometimes, sometimes they've handled it, sometimes they haven't, right? And so, but as a situational leader, um, as somebody who if is is bent towards that or has felt like they have to be in that space, um, it's hard to do that. Let me and let just let me just I'm just gonna have a transparent moment. Real talk. I really have I have had to manage a lot of transition. I've said this before a lot of times on the show. I've managed a ton of transition in my in in this current role I'm in um as an organizational leader. And I don't know that I have there's there's maybe two people, if I'm just being totally honest, that I have worked with long enough to fully trust, to know that if even if they drop it, it's okay, then I can drop it again. And sometimes it takes time, and I've been so wired um to I'm I've been so wired to like with this with the sit in the situational leadership role because to respond because of either just uh the people that are new, and sometimes, you know, this is a it actually is a great leadership style for a novice team because you just they just need time, they gotta learn, right? And so you have to kind of direction they need the direction, right? And and support, yeah. And so I feel like I've been in that space for a while. And and when you get to the edge of people when it's ready to to to kind of turn it over, then there's a transition. And so you gotta do it again. So you get used to that cycle and you get used to that response time. And so for those of you like me who have been in the midst of a lot of transition over the last few years, this can be you might want to look at this and if this is sounding familiar, then what what I would encourage you to do is to uh take a step back and take a step back and and just take a step back. Because you you you don't realize that um you don't realize that you are uh stunting the development, and I've been guilty of that. And so even if it's okay, it's okay, it's okay it's necessary that the ball drops. And I I have I've done that plenty of times. And and let them pick it up, right? I think there's this is also a reason, and I've seen this too, and I and I the that people people actually want to develop, and and I think sometimes leaders don't take that into consideration. I think we don't always think the best in people sometimes, and it's like people want to develop. I know, I know, I know, I know, I know. Hold on, hold on. People want to develop, and so you gotta let them, and if you let them, they'll probably stay longer. The you know their length of time, so then when you lengthen the time, you build up the trust, you build up the culture, and you're not as required to be as responsive, and you can start to delve into other other um leadership styles other than this situation.
SPEAKER_00:Excellent point, Sue Abigail. I think something that is gonna be critical for a situational leader to realize is that one, everyone is not you, and I think a lot of times what happens is is that we get stuck in believing that we know and understand how people will respond and how they will navigate different situations and circumstances, and you come up with cookie-cutter uh solutions that came out of your brain, and then you impose those solutions onto people who don't think or process or understand things in the way that you do, not because they're less mature, but because they're wired differently. Yeah, and so you keep forcing yourself as the solution. You keep saying the way I think, the way I understand, the way I perceive things is the answer. And that person begins an internal battle of feeling unheard, misunderstood, constantly feeling like they have to prove themselves because they're like, okay, I gotta live up to whatever way it is that my leader thinks or acts are, you know, I gotta do things the way that they do it, instead of you allowing them an opportunity to explore, okay, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. My brain and my experiences and my skill sets are going to lead me to do something different in the situation that may produce a different result that's actually better. Yeah. Because again, you have to know when we look at who is hired for the job. I, you know, I like to think that hopefully the people who have been put in positions, whether they are the positions at the bottom of the organization or the positions at the top. If someone that is anointed and gifted and has has what's in them, they have what's necessary to fulfill the position in a way that's gonna launch us forward. Yeah. Right? You have to believe that. But sometimes in in the ways that we lead people, we say, I gotta show them how to do this. They don't know what they're doing. I don't know why they are if they don't move at the pace that you move at, or they don't move in the way that you move, or they don't think about things the way that you think about your mind is always, I gotta train them, I gotta, I gotta mold them, I gotta get them. I want things done the way there is a right way to do things. Um, and you get stuck, you know. Uh pre-uh recording today, we were talking about just ways that were motivated. Yeah. Um and uh, you know, I was telling them, you know, Ruth and Joy are both like, you know, prove them people. Like, you know, you tell me I can't do something, I'm going to prove you wrong. Absolutely. My time, and my effort. And I'm going, and and I'm not gonna try, I'm going to achieve.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:100%. I'm gonna make sure that I do it. It's gonna be friend Jaquita is not that way, right? I've tried being that way. It does not work for me. It's not true. When people, when people come at me with the, you know what, you probably, you know, you really can't do that. You know, you're not good at that thing. I'm like, a part of me is like, you know what? You might be right. And I'm not finna sit here and allow myself to be made a mockery of I'm walking away. Okay, I'm out of here. Right? When you tell me I'm not something, and if I really don't believe I am, now if I deep down in my heart, like if somebody were to tell me I'm not funny, okay, I'd be like, all right. No, I know I'm funny. So if I if I know I already can prove it, I'm I'm in the ring. If I'm like, I'm not sure. I'm not sure if I am or if I'm not, and I'm not about to get out here and try publicly. And one thing that I realized about myself was that I am not one, I'm not achievement motivated. And I say that because I want to free some other people who are also not achievement motivated, because the world makes you feel like you should be. The world makes you feel like you are supposed to, when you get the product, the thing, the achievement in your hand, you are supposed to be, you know, full of glee about it, and that's supposed to motivate you to keep achieving. I'm not achievement motivated. I am very much mission motivated. If you sit me down and you say, hey, Japlita, listen, I know this is not your natural gift set, but this is the purpose. This is this is what this is what God has ordained, and this is why we need you to do this. You got me. I'm gonna be like, listen, I'm here for the team. All right, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna change, we're gonna go change lives. Come on, let's go. You know, but if you like, hey, you can't do this, and I don't want to.
SPEAKER_02:You know, but that and this this is very important. I didn't mean to cut you off. I'm sorry. No, you're not cut you off. I did. No, you're gonna cut. Uh this this is exactly like why this I think this leadership style has one of the strengths that it has is that it it often does pay attention to the individual. And I think it's a great way to scratch your itch, scratch the hero itch. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, let me be more specific. I was I was very not just any itch. Yeah, clarify it.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know where you're itching. We're not talking about the other itches, you know.
SPEAKER_02:No, just this one. Um, so the it can it can scratch your hero itch. You know what I mean? So, like, if you want to be a hero, be a he Okay, I'm sorry. Do you lost it? Have you lost it and bring it back? I'm really I'm really not sure. I'm good, not really sure what they're okay. Um we're good, we're good. We're good, we're good, we're good. So, like if you want to if you're like you just you respond to the individual, like if you just need a place to respond, respond to the person, not the situation, respond to who they are. And so, because I I understand this need to like if if this is just kind of where you naturally sit. And it's funny, as we are talking about this, I really feel like this is more I I think I I think that I have more of this in me than I'm all right, all right.
SPEAKER_00:If you have been keeping tally, okay, literally every single leadership style, Ruth Abigail's like, wow, this is me. No, so okay, hold on. This is now that I think about it, now that I'm this is I I see it.
SPEAKER_02:Because you have to you have to be a little, you have to at some point hit all of this, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, they they've heard this speech before, but go ahead.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I'm gonna continue to say it because it's true. You have to you have to be comfortable doing because it's gonna happen. You're gonna have seasons where you gotta be all of this. So but I do there's something about this that's resonating me, resonating with me a little bit deeper um than the others. Whatever. I have not said that before. And if I have, whatever. Uh so I just but I'm just the one. Whatever, you kid. It's terrible. I'm way too vulnerable on this show. Um, but uh I I really I think that if if if you if you if if the response factor is important to you, and it can be, and that's that's not a bad thing. Like Queena was saying, respond to the individual, learn who they are, right? Uh as opposed to, and that'll help you to understand how to um How to support support them specifically in in the midst of different situations. Because a person like Queda doesn't need to be pushed. That's not her, you're not gonna get anywhere with that, with her there, right? Versus producer joy. She likes a challenge. And if you take the challenge away, she's gonna be deflated. Like, don't do that, right? Um wow. And so I think like the understanding that about people that you are working with, um, it it can really kind of enhance this leadership style for you, and they'll appreciate it. Um, and so I would encourage you, like if you find yourself big leaning towards this or in a situation where you are kind of having to do that all the time because things are constantly changing and you're in transition mode or you have a really young team, right? Yeah, instead of responding to the thing, respond to the person. Yeah, and that will help them to develop, which is what you need in order to then get out of this particular style and move on to others, right? Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I feel the need to stick up for my non-achievement motivated friends, um, to to the fellow, you know, because I I feel I spent so much of my 20s feeling misunderstood and feeling like it was impossible to be myself because I felt like I was constantly being told who you are is gonna lead you nowhere. Right? Who you are is gonna is gonna land you in a sea of regrets. And so I spent a lot of my 20s trying to put on other people's armor, you know, put on other people's, like, oh, like, oh, well, their gifting looks good and and their personality looks great and who they are. And I I spent a good bit of my 20s feeling honestly miserable. Um, and I it it took me, but I will say growing out of out of feeling like I had to be someone, look like someone different, the process of growing out of that is what gave me the material to be able to talk to young leaders now and to see where people really are, and to and to give uh to give language to who they are, because there's a lot of people who don't yet understand exactly why they work the way that they work, because they feel like they don't work like everyone else. That's right. That they are not, that they don't sit within the majority of people, you know, and and they don't know how to activate potential um because everyone around them is telling you you gotta do it this way. And they're like, I'm not that person. Yeah, um, and I think that if you are a leader that is working with someone that you just can't seem to motivate, I think one, you are going to have to learn how to ask different questions. Absolutely. You know, I think that the because the questions that uh I tended to get asked were why can't you just get it? Um, why don't you understand this? You know, what is it that you don't, what is it that you, you know, you're supposed to learn by, oh, this was my favorite. You're supposed to learn by observing me. And when you observe me, then you will pick up everything you need. And I remember just watching, like, I think you want me to see there is something that you are intending to portray that you think that I should see, and then I repeat. Right. But my mind is always thinking of how can I do something different? How can I, how can I improve something? How what's the my mind is always in a moment that's beyond the moment that we're in, right? And so instead of you saying, instead of you taking a step back and saying, okay, who is this person? And how can I help them be a better them? And not how can I help them become me? That's and I think a lot of times in leadership we lose people because they realize when they get to the point where they realize that your leadership can only extend to to help replicate yourself. And when a person realizes I wanna be you, man, that's real, they gone. That's it. Yep, they gone, they don't trust you anymore, they don't receive from you anymore, they they they've moved on, yep, and you have got to get to a point, and this is regardless of what your leadership style is. We all have got to get to a point where we are really interested in getting to know and wanting to develop who people are. The Lord already did the creating, He already did the this person's gonna have this this temperament, this personality style, this gift set, this, this, this, and that. The Lord already did that. You don't get to go back in and then say, you know what, you just something's missing, and I think it's me. That's real. Oh, no, that's not gonna be the right response because ultimately, what people really want to feel is that they are able to thrive under your leadership, regardless of what your leadership style is. And I do think situational can work for that in some respects. I think that that's actually a strength of theirs because they're looking person to person and saying, okay, this is what they need, and this is what they need, and this is this is who I'm gonna be to them, and this is who I'm gonna be to them, you know. But I think that there's also a potential, if you misread the person, you're gonna misdiagnose them, and you're gonna take them through a rigor marot that they didn't necessarily need. And as a person that has been made to go through many a rigor marot, okay, and still still left feeling like, because I left feeling like, okay, okay, once again, I gotta prove myself, I gotta try to help people understand who I am, and and you know, I at at some point I'm gonna stop doing that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, and you should. I mean, I think you made a great, I think you said something that is very key that I have found is not the strength of many leaders, including myself until I learned how to do it and I put effort into it. Um, and that's asking questions. I I think that we don't know how to do that well. Um you know, and I probably the art of asking questions I probably started leaning into learning about that maybe uh about I don't know, four or five years ago. And um it is the best it it was the best thing that I could have done as a leader is to learn how to ask questions, good questions, not not just not you know, not not not simple questions, but questions that are gonna get to the heart of the matter. Um and and quickly, you don't need a long time to get there, right? But part of doing that is is listening. We people just don't listen. And I think that if you listen and you and you observe, you'll know what questions to ask and when to ask them, right? Um, I'm not saying you won't be perfect all the time, but it's worth it's worth trying. Uh I'll I'll give a little tip um that I learned that I've told people uh helped to coach people on how to ask questions. And I I don't know, I think I'm gonna do something on this eventually, just because it's something that's really helped me um as a leader. And I and I've I've had a lot of people who have responded to this well. But um most of us ask questions that are are close-ended. We don't even realize we're doing it, right? Um, and and so though those questions, this is a simple trick. If you are a leader and you're asking questions that begin with uh do or have, um, you're asking a close-ended question every time. Wow. Do you know how to do this? Have you done this? Have you seen this? Do you uh what do you think about this? No, no, what do you? That's wrong. Do you do you think this about this, right? Those those are closed-ended questions. They're easy, they're the first ones that come to our minds. Um, and you don't give people, you don't allow them to think, right? That doesn't help. So if you can replace any question that you want to use uh do or have with a what or a how, you will immediately shift it into an open-ended question, right? Um and then you can charge for this, you're engaging. I might now then you're engaging the mind, right, of the person you're talking to. So it so they are not leaning on you to respond, they have to respond, and you don't it's not it's not a cop-out for you to be able to be the hero. Because if you ask them a closed-ended question and it ends that conversation ends, it gives you a quicker, it gives you a chance to talk more than you should. But if you ask an open-ended question, it gives you an open chance to listen more, right? All right, I'm gonna stop. I hope that made sense. I hope it's so literally just change if before you ask, ask if you're about to say do, shift to a what or a how or who a what, how, who, when or why really will work. But I like what or who. I mean what or uh what did I say? What or how? Those are really, really good. Um when is a great accountability, right? Uh have you done this is is is is a different question than when do you want to do this? That's a whole different conversation as opposed to asking, have you done something? Shifting. Wow, right? Or when when when do you expect when do you expect to get it done? I'm done.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, go ahead. No, no, no, no. That that was good. All right. I hope y'all enjoyed that free tidbit. We'll be back with the workshops later. Okay, we'll we'll be back with we'll be back. Listen, we can come to a team near you. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:We sure can.
SPEAKER_00:We sure because you know what? I think that what you are pointing at is as a leader, you have to be mindful when you are talking with your team. Am I pointing it back to them or am I pointing it to me? That's it. That's correct. Am I am I am I asking a question simply so that I can again heroic? I asked a question. Yeah, to yeah. Like I'm just all right, you haven't talked in a while. So let me just correct. Like, you know, you know, let me let them feel involved and like they're participating. Exactly. Am I asking a question because there's something that they have that can make us all better? Yep. And it's it's time for me to shift the stage and allow them to take center stage. That's right. Why, why are you asking the question? I think your motive will determine the outcome. And I think that if you are naturally trying to develop your team members, you are not you are naturally gonna ask these what and what is it, what and how questions. You're naturally gonna ask those type of questions because you are wanting them to become and not just do. That's right. And what's and I know that I'm sorry, that's my transformational leadership style coming out. Yeah, that's real. But but when you when you are focusing on their development and not just their ability to do what you say, oh God, that's it. Not for real.
SPEAKER_02:I I just can we go back to the burnout thing that you said, uh, because I think that all like you what you just said, like, are you doing this for them or for you? Um and you know, when you focus too much on you, you do get burned out because it it you never again, the situational leader. If you're the only one that can respond to the fire, you you you've put yourself and your team in a really precarious position because at some point you won't be able to respond. And if you haven't allowed them to do so and train them in a way for them to handle it, the next time a fire comes, it's just gonna burn it down. Nobody will know what to do.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And so you you you know, you gotta be careful about that. Like we have to be careful about it. Sometimes, yes, it takes you and you have to do it, but if it takes you all the time, you gotta check that. You gotta ask yourself, why do I need to be in every situation?
SPEAKER_00:And then here's the other thing that you have to be careful about. I think I I used to have a blog, it was called Lead This Heart. Um, and I used to do like an online blog, you know. It was in one of my, you know, I'm trying to find myself uh stages of life, but I a lot of those blogs were really, really good. Yeah. But I I I I you as a leader, and I think this is something we're gonna talk about in our special episode coming up, but you have to be attentive to your own heart. Because what happens? Yeah, my God, yeah, when a leader gets burnt out, man, the blame game comes up. It's I wouldn't be burnt out if these people knew how to da-da-da-da-da. And why am I the only one that da-da-da-da-da? And you mean to tell me nobody could da da da? And why why am I the only one? And it's like, babe, because you created an atmosphere where no one feels comfortable becoming the person that that can do and be. And so you blame the people that you've handicapped. Yeah. Because we we do it. You you blame the people that you stifled. You're correct. That's absolutely you blame the people that you won't let move, you won't let grow, you won't let fly, you keeping them stuck in the nest, and then you're like, Well, I gotta carry everybody. Right. Baby, that's right. That you have to allow people to get into the arena and work out. You gotta allow them to build muscle, you gotta create safe situations where they can be in places and develop, you know, and you have to be able to recognize when someone is in a safe space. You have to, and you may, you may be the type of leader that has to say to yourself, they're okay, we're okay. If something falls right there, they're gonna learn how to pick it up and it's going to be okay. Yep. And you have to let them go. I have actually been told by a couple of people. I remember uh there have been times when I've been told and I've seen other people being told, like, oh, it there was this opportunity, but you know, we decided you weren't ready. You know, and I look back on that because at the time I felt ashamed. I felt like God didn't think me special enough, like that, he couldn't work with what I had. And we think that we're keeping people safe when we're really crippling them. Yeah. Because when you refuse to allow me to work out the muscles that will allow me to enter into the bigger arenas one day, you my muscles begin to atrophy. Atrophy, yeah, for sure. You know what I'm saying? Like something, something in me is literally dying because you won't allow me into the space that will develop and strengthen me and who I am. Yeah. And again, you don't want to be the leader that people are fleeing. Because I'm not gonna sit here and die.
SPEAKER_02:No, you're gonna no, you're gonna move. I have to go. You're gonna move. Yeah. Um, so so yeah, this is I I I I need to And not to say, sorry, just to correct something.
SPEAKER_00:Sometimes you really aren't ready. For sure.
SPEAKER_02:Sometimes there's some things that you really aren't ready for. I I think I think something to be I I'm glad you said that because the thought that I had was like, um look at look at character, not skill. I mean, it it skill can be developed. You can do that, you can figure that out. But if your character is not right, if you won't if you don't have a level of maturity, then that could be that could be different, right? Um, but the skill part is like you can figure that out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. Can I say something about character real quick? Yeah. Again, for any leader, because I've a character, if if anybody knows me, character is probably the word that comes out my mouth the most, right? But make sure, because again, character is neither good nor bad, it's either developed or underdeveloped, right? Make sure you're not judging the parts of their character off of your own reflection. Sure, yeah. Give people a give people a fair survey, not according to you uh you trying to figure out who they are as a reflection of you.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, oh for sure.
SPEAKER_00:Give people a fair survey, right? Is it a character issue or is it an opportunity issue? And that's where you have to make that, and and I think it's incumbent upon leaders that we be making uh we we literally hold because leadership comes with power and authority, you are literally holding the door for the people that you are are serving. Yeah. You're holding the door for them. You are the one who's saying, okay, listen, come on through this door. Are you the one saying, hey, you can't go through this door yet? And you have the there is a great deal of responsibility that comes with that. And I think that we need to be more mindful of how we are monitoring that door that allows people access to their next level.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Um no, no, that's good. No, I I um I I want to say a another, I want to quit the two you you would you you talked to to the to the non-achievers. I'd like to talk to the achievers for a second, all right. As as a fellow achiever. Oh boy, I'm just way too vulnerable on this. Um so I love it. As an achiever, uh, and and and a lot of achievers are performative. We we like, I mean, our our our work is our stage. Um, and if I'm honest, that's the case for me, right? My work is my stage. Um and I like to do well. A lot of times achievers are put as leaders because they've achieved. Okay. And you have to be, it is it is very important to understand that achievement does not equal good leadership. And when you are put into a leadership position because of your own achievements, this type of leadership style can be very dangerous because you uh haven't yet learned how not to be center stage. We talked about this earlier, right? The star of the show. But part of the reason, this is, and I think this is this is where you have to be honest with yourself that we we like to uh to do the type of leadership that is more situational where we can kind of come to the rescue or be the hero is because as achievers, we like doing what we know how to do. What you have to learn how to do is something new. The one of the reasons that I think um situational leaders can get in trouble is that you are you're not just responding, you're responding to things you know how to respond to. And when you and as a leader, your job is not to do that, your job is to um is to is to step back, is to look. You gotta you gotta kind of come from the uh come from the grass tops to the treetops and be able your perspective needs to shift. And sometimes achievement looks like being still, right? And achievers have a hard time not being still. We like to be moving, we like to be doing things, we like to be achieving, we like to be the next goal, the next thing. And sometimes it's uh it's it's being still and watching and and and being discerning and asking questions and thinking um and supporting, right, and encouraging. It's not doing. And so if but we are sometimes we can be so insecure. I have been insecure in my and in in I will insecure as a person, more insecure as an achiever, as an achieving leader, that I I have um sometimes not unintentionally put myself in a position to where um I'm doing more than I should because I don't know what else to do. And that is frustrating as an achiever, right? Um it's because I don't know what else to do other than achieve. I don't know what it means to not achieve. So I'm just gonna keep achieving even if it's trampling over your development. And that's bad, and that's not good, right? Well, that's not good. So for those of you who are like me who struggle with that, if you're a high achiever and you find yourself in a leadership role, then what my challenge is is to slow down and step back and stop doing. You gotta stop doing. You gotta stop. And even if even if it feels so anti-it's the tension, because it will it will feel that way. The tension inside of you is like, no, no, no, but I have to do, I have to do. No, just don't like like um go against your nature in that in that space, right? Go against your nature. What if you're if you if something is telling you to do something actively, don't do and watch it get done. Watch it get done. And that's something I tell myself, I gotta tell myself that all the time. I don't know. Like real talk.
SPEAKER_00:I might pay to sponsor this episode because I want this one to go out. The people need to hear this one right here. They need because I think we have identified spaces that not only leaders, but people who serve under leaders where we get where we get stuck. You know, I if I I think that we who are not achievement motivated, this is why I keep Ruth and Joy around. Sure. You know, like you need to be influenced. I I can honestly say, I can honestly say that if I did not have the friends and the people around me that I have, I'd be somewhere full of visions and goals. That's right. And maybe not a lot of movement. I have had to learn, I'm not achievement-oriented, but I have had to learn how to keep moving. Like I've had to learn how, like, I'm I'm not necessarily trying to get to to a next goal, but I'm I have to get to my next level of impact. I have to get to the place where my gift has the proper stage. Right. I I and and the proper, and I have to make sure that I'm continuing because you it is uh I I'm you can develop and grow and have no position, have no impact, and just be a person who knows a bunch of stuff and can articulate things well, but you don't have a platform. Yeah or you don't have people who can listen and follow, you don't have impact. Um, and so I think it's important that we bring these two communities of people together. You know, you need people who are intuitive, mission focused, you know, uh maybe can seem to be in the clouds. You need those people who with you need them to join together with our ground people, with our doers, our movers. And um, and we we need each other because again, me and Ruth Abigail's scripture, iron sharpens iron. Absolutely. And you need that. And you need that. Um I would not be who I was without it.
SPEAKER_02:No, I and I wouldn't either. And I I I I can say like, you know, people, it's funny, I always joke, like a a lot of I have a lot of friends who are who are like Jaquita who are that have that kind of personality. Um and it has helped me to um it has really helped me to value people and value process that I I don't necessarily always do. Like I value I I naturally value results and I want to just see it done. Uh, but the process is is I would probably say more important. Um and it has helped me to to see the process of things and um and to value that and to value that in people and to be patient, like and um and to be patient with myself, right? Like, I mean, and and allow myself to to go through the process. I think uh I think there's there's there's huge upside to that. And I wouldn't I wouldn't be able to do that without the people around me. Like yeah, I that's not how I'm naturally wired. I also think God intentionally, and I I I don't I I've I don't know, I've thought this for years, put me working with people in ministry and in people development to mold that in me. Because if I was in an environment where it was results, results, results, the person that I am would be a lot, I would be a lot more um hardened uh towards people.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I think that God put me in ministry because it's not something that I would have ever, I honestly didn't want to be in it. Yeah. Um, and I I didn't have no really, no real desire to work with people. Um, but I think God put that in it to soften my my heart towards people and soften my heart towards people's process and so and and and and allow me to uh value what he values, which is people. Um, and that's something I've had to learn uh as a leader. And I think you know, that's why leadership is so important to me because I y'all, I'm like I I sit here, we have these conversations, but you know, I think I can speak for both me and Queita. Like when we leave here, this is like we are speaking in real time for both of us. Like this is not this is not stuff that we're just like, oh, this would be good to talk about. This is like digging up stuff, you know what I'm saying? Girl, for real. Like for real.
SPEAKER_00:I was like as I as we were talking today, I was like, oh crap, all right. Next seriously, like you know, gosh, especially now that I've been through like these healing classes, and I'm just like, oh, found another route, need to dig that up. You know, I don't I don't think we're not speaking from, hey, you know, let me tell you what I've what I've been through, and you know, and here's some here's some jewels. We're like, man, girl, I just unearthed this just now on this on this podcast. Like right now, yeah, like like right in the moment, you know, and I think thank you for uh mentioning because I think that for those of you that are not achievement focused, like you know, like you're not constantly like in a state of production, production, production. Your ability, you have to know your superpower because it can be a little harder to find. Uh I'm trying to tell you what I've been through. It can be a little bit harder to identify because everybody else, it seems like they're moving at the speed of light. And you back here somewhere trying to figure out where your piece is at. That's true. Understand being the person. That understands how to properly process people. How like because you know what it's like. You spent so much time thinking and uncovering process. You know, like when I look back on my life, my friend, I used to get on everybody's nerves. When I found personality, I was like, guys, I now understand everyone. Okay. Let me let me tell you all. I they didn't need to take a test. I literally told everyone what their personality was. And I I began walking them through. When I found uh lifestyle, uh it's called life languages. I did that. You know, anytime I find something that helps me to understand people, people's circumstances, situations better, I'm able to walk people through their becoming stage. Because I but I had to go through my own. I had to go through my own, and that gave me the language to be able to help other people to walk through theirs. You have to know your superpower. Everybody has the has the ability to be a hero, but not if you don't know what it is you bring into the table. You can't you can't step up on the Avengers and be like, hey guys, I don't quite yet know what I do. Right. You know, can I cap, can I borrow the shield, uh, Black Panther, let me get in a suit. And nobody's giving you their sense. That's real. You gotta find your own sign and you have to come in articulating who you are. I just uh Civil Wars, Captain America's Civil War, where they're all like fighting each other. Right, and this is where we get new characters. We get Ant-Man. And everybody's like, yo, who this dude? You know, like he can get small, he can get big. Now we got new people on the team, right? But you have to be able, if you gonna step up to the team, you gotta be able, you gotta be able to tell me what you do. What do you do? Yeah, what do you do? Yeah what do you do? What you got, you know, what does your suit do? What's the purpose of your armor? Right. What's the you know, uh when we're looking at X-Men, yo, why you gotta wear goggles? Yeah, you know, what what are those for? You have to be able to articulate, and that's the 20s. The 20s is finding those things and being like, oh, what's this? And the 30s is saying, hey guys, I think I'm starting to get some language to be able to explain this. And when me and Ruth Abigail hit the 40s, we'll be back with you to show you.
SPEAKER_02:We'll let you know. We'll let you know. We'll let you know. We're not there yet. We're not there, we're not there. Um, this is good. Thank you. This is good. Um, this was good. Uh yeah, I think I think I think we're done. Um, those are leadership styles, friends. There you go. That's leadership styles. And uh, hey, hey, like we always say, if this is of value to you, what they gonna do?
SPEAKER_00:Listen, friends, you're gonna come in and you're gonna join the community, okay? That's what you're gonna do.
SPEAKER_02:You're gonna like, okay. Hit the heart. Hit the heart. Hit the heart.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the like button. You know how many people tell me, man, I listened to your video like five times, and I go back and I check. Right. Man, they they must have liked it. Nothing. Okay, hit the like, you know, and and and honestly, we need to know what what resonates with you guys, yeah, what hits so we can give you more of what works. Right. You know, um, yeah, let us know. Please like, share. If you share, tag us in it. You know, we just we this is community. We want to interact and engage with you guys. So like, share, and for sure subscribe.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, y'all. Um, like we just said, we have something special coming up, so stay tuned for that. Um, and uh, but until then, let's keep unlearning together so that we can experience more freedom. Peace. Thank you once again for listening to the Unlearned Podcast. We would love to hear your comments and your feedback about the episode. Feel free to follow us on Facebook and Instagram and to let us know what you think. We're looking forward to the next time when we are able to unlearn together to move forward towards freedom. See you then.
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