The UnlearnT Podcast
The UnlearnT Podcast is designed to help you gain the courage to change your mind about things you never thought you would change your mind about. Our hope is that you will begin to move towards a life of freedom after hearing stories from individuals who have chosen to unlearn some things in their lives.
The UnlearnT Podcast
Reinventing The Second Act: Follow These Steps to Experience Real Transformation!
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Unlearnt Podcast. This is the second act where we reflect on where we've been so that we can redefine and rewrite what's next. I'm your host, Shakita Ross, and today I have somebody so special with me today. I'm absolutely excited to introduce you guys to her. Okay. So listen, today we're diving into the power of reinvention with someone who has truly lived it. After 32 years in higher education, including more than a decade as vice president, where I had the pleasure of being mentored by her. Dr. Mathil Knowles walked away to build a new life centered on purpose, freedom, and transformation. She's now a motivational speaker, transformation coach, and author of It's Your Time to Soar and Getting Out of Your Own Way with a new online course on the way. Dr. Knowles is living proof that the second act isn't a comeback, it's an elevation. Friends, welcome to the second act. My one of my most cherished mentors, Dr. Mathilde Knowles. Hi, Dr. Knowles. Ager Queen. Yay! Listen, you guys, when I was but a young, a young girl in the world of academia and student life and student services, Dr. Knowles scooped me up and coached me uh to greatness. And I always, anytime I'm speaking in front of an audience, especially in front of an audience of young adults, I think of all of the things that she poured into me, the ways that she helped me to realize that there was so much more beyond where I was. And she helped me, like her new book says, to get out of my own way and to go pursue those great things. Dr. Nose, I'm so excited. Thank you. It's great to be here. Yes. Okay, so you are someone who 32 years in a space in higher education, right? But I love the story of your trajectory. And so I would love for you to introduce to the audience Dr. Nose, the former higher ed professional, and talk about kind of where you begin in that first act and how you navigated through those different seasons.
SPEAKER_01:Well, thank you, Jaquita. And I love this idea of our life being divided into acts and having an intermission and so forth. I I often talk about our lives being like a book that has chapters that we're moving through with beginning, middle, you know, some plot twists. And it's the same when you think about theater and acts. And so, yeah, so when I think about how it all started, I I'm gonna go way back for a minute. I won't I won't say that. Let's go way back. Let's go way back. So I when I was a teenager, when I was approaching that age of uh thinking about where I'm gonna go to college and everything, that was a time in my life when I would come home and Oprah was on. And I was super inspired by what she was doing, how she was showing up in the world, using her life. And so I, as a writer, and I already was doing some speaking and so forth back then, but I would I really wanted to go into journalism or mass communications. Oh, and the adults in my life of who love me and were well-meaning didn't think that would be a great career. And so I shifted. I I pivoted early on, but you know, I don't know if that was a healthy pivot because I pivoted away from my basic instinct and and early, early on. And so I started down a road that was not, even though it was lower risk, it was not as authentic as my life became later. And so I went to uh I got accepted. Uh this is another, this could be a whole book. I got accepted into temple university. I know. And honestly, if I'm super honest, I let fear prevent me from going away to Temple University in Philadelphia. And I know everything happens as it's supposed to, you know, as we go through our through our acts of our lives. But um I started going to community college where I lived, and then eventually started working full-time. I was really, really good at office work. And so, and I had taken classes in, you know, typing and word processing and so forth. And so I also pivoted, so I became someone who was working full-time in nice, decent, high-level office positions and going to school part-time. And I um did that for many, many years. And people assumed I had a degree. So I found myself always explaining that I didn't have one yet because I was always pursuing it. I had I was one of those people with like 120 credit hours and no earned, no earned credential. Um, I don't recommend that.
SPEAKER_08:On the brink, on the brink of it, but but trying to figure out how to push past.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So I wasn't, I had not yet become a finisher. Yeah, and uh when it comes to pursuing my goals. And so fast forward, I'm in, I've worked at law firms, uh, big insurance companies, so on and so forth. But when I landed in higher ed, I worked for a woman who we lost about three years ago, uh, Joe Grooms. She hired me to be the executive assistant to her. She was a vice president for student affairs, and everyone lovingly called her Mama Joe because she was a mentor. And she saw something in me that I did not see in myself yet. And that's an important sort of like pin because that is such a theme that shows up. Uh, people show up. Yeah, people show up as our mentors. You mentioned mentors. Uh, you're coachable. You're an example of someone who's coachable. I too was coachable. And so she she basically laid down the law and was like, you're gonna go, you're gonna go back to college and you're gonna finish. And it didn't seem like a um, it didn't seem like a suggestion. And so it was like a command.
SPEAKER_08:I would like to say, I got some of those from you too. Yes, I got some of those that didn't seem like a suggestion.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, and it's important, you know, when when God puts those people in our lives, that we listen to them and that we that we uh just take the courageous steps, just that one extra ounce of courage to move forward. And so um I went there's I had many serendipitous things that happened, but eventually I kept moving up in higher ed. I did four years in uh Florida and 28 in South Carolina, but along the way I kept moving up and eventually I became a vice president. I became I was in the same role of the person who mentored me eventually, and so that that was life-changing, that was a major pivot. I think that probably describes my first act because I had about 13 years of working as an executive assistant, as a legal assistant, and then eventually my whole personality, my whole brand, the whole way I saw myself shifted into being an executive level officer at a college.
SPEAKER_08:So I think that's so interesting. I love how you say said that there was this original intent of the direction of your life in this journalism, in this mass communication area, right? And that was, I'm guessing, an area of giftedness that you even in some way recognized in yourself. But in the pivot, in one of your first pivots, it was go a safer route, go a route where there's where there's a little bit more confidence that you'll be able to make a living and have kind of that nine to five world, um, where we can where we can imagine you there. Um but I I think it's so interesting though that you were you were good at what you weren't natural at. Right? Like like it wasn't it wasn't your first inclination, but you were still good at something that you can that you could build, but it's like you were carrying kind of the career and the passion. Like I'm sure it never left. And so I'm wondering as you were kind of navigating, going up the ranks of, you know, I'm naturally just a good administrator. I went back to college, I got the credentials, I can continue growing as an administrator, but there's still something I'm carrying with me that I haven't been able to express. And I've been there, right? I've been in positions where I was good at my job, but there's this thing sitting on the inside of me that I feel like I can't express. How did you find outlets in the midst of a growing career to still express this passion?
SPEAKER_01:So back when I was still in my first act, I was always plugged into things like community theater. And uh, that's when I was in Jacksonville, Florida. I had many uh roles on stage, behind stage, you know, backstage. And also then later I got involved. I was always a writer also. And but I never shared really shared it with the world. And so I got very involved in spoken word poetry. I did open mic, not yeah, I don't think you did. I don't think I think yeah, and um so I I did always stay tapped into that side of me. I have pictures of myself as a toddler, and I'm in the position of a speaker and yeah, and a leader. And um, but yeah, so and there there does when so I'm really saying this, especially to this middle adult part of your audience. I know that's not all of your audience. It's a little bit of a okay. So you do have to cultivate uh this ability uh and willingness to really notice what's going on with you. So some you made a good point. I was in positions that uh weren't necessarily my didn't necessarily align with my purpose. Uh I did develop a lot of foundational skills and comfort in rooms where I later later needed to be.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But you have to be able to pay attention to that nagging feeling that something's not quite right. Because I think we all get that feeling and we learn to push it down because, like she, like you said, we're being practical, we're being safe, we're staying in the box that has the lines that were drawn for us, yeah, that makes other people comfortable, yeah, and make them not worry about us. And but then once you have that awareness, how long do you carry that that dis-ease in in your body and your spirit before you take action to do something different?
SPEAKER_08:Yeah. And yeah. No, I think it's I think it's interesting because as I'm as I'm hearing your story, some of which I knew, some of which apparently I didn't know, but as I'm hearing your story, I'm I'm thinking about kind of moments where I knew it was time to transition. Right. And I'll I'll tell you, I think I told you uh Dr. Knowles and I worked at a wonderful community college together. Um, she was my boss's boss's boss, but that's okay. I still found my way to her, and that's all that matters. Um but I um I when I knew that it was time for me to leave that place, and I loved that place, and I love that role. I love the students that I was able to interact with, I love the community that was there, um, the people that I worked with. I have, I still to this day have a really deep love for that place. But I knew that it was time for me to move forward into my next thing. And so I applied then um for the the college that I work at now. And the day that I got the call, that I got the job, I was actually at work and I was sitting in my office and I went downstairs because I didn't want anybody to hear me. I went downstairs and I was outside. I outside and outside. Dr. Nose, I went back upstairs. The lights were off in my office, and they would not turn back on. We kept flicking them, we kept trying to, they were motion sensors, so we were everybody was in there waving their hands, but lights would not turn back on, and I knew that I had fulfilled a season in that place. That is so symbolic. I know, but you get to these moments where yeah, you love it and you you you love the impact, you love the community that you've built there, but it's time to move to the next thing. The lights turned off. What do you do when you're in that moment and you're feeling that sense of disease and you know that you have to make a courageous move? How do you kind of navigate those moments? Because I was holding two realities. I was holding loving where I was and knowing that I had to move forward.
SPEAKER_01:So you do have to pay attention to those moments. And that was that was a powerful symbolic moment that you just described. I have several as well. Uh I'll share one quickly and I'll talk to you about the how to answer your question. So when I was first moving into my first vice presidency, I had the honor of serving as vice president at two different community colleges. And when the when I first got the first opportunity, even going through the process of being called in for the interview, I won't tell the longer version of it, but I kept trying to run from it. I kept trying to run from it. I I just did little things to push it away. And it everything kept pulling me toward it. I was trying to repel it, but everything kept attracting me toward the position. And so once I uh left the interview, the, you know, when you're applying as a vice president, you have like a one or two full-day interview process. And when I was back in the car, heading back home, I called my mother and I told her the histor the history of that in that first institution. And it tied back to a history, that college has a history of being a day school for children of freed slaves. Whoa.
SPEAKER_07:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:And when when I said the name of it, the original name of it, she kept repeating it a couple of times. And it turned out that my grandmother and some of her sisters attended that school and played basketball there.
SPEAKER_03:Oh my gosh, wow.
SPEAKER_01:So I was supposed, that gave me the most intensive sense of purpose. I was now here I am going in as a vice president. And so I was supposed to do that. And so, but noticing that kind of noticing those moments doesn't mean it's not scary, or maybe a stronger word would be terrifying at times. And so this is where uh, and you've heard me talk about my five-step transformation model. The first one is mindset, and so you know, there's many ways to work on your mindset and do your work, surround yourself with people who are not going to be encouraging you to not take those leaps and courageous bounds and so forth. But honestly, it comes down to doing it with your legs shaking. Yes, you have to get your mindset right, and you know, you know, we could do a whole session on that, but you have to take action, and that's why I talk about caterpillars and butterflies so much because butterflies are down on the ground. Excuse me, caterpillars are down on the ground with other caterpillars, walking around, eating, having a good old time. Nothing wrong with that. But that's not what they're supposed to be. You weren't supposed to stay where you were. Not everything you're supposed to be yet, right? You were never meant to remain a caterpillar.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But if you think about it, a caterpillar really doesn't even know what a butterfly is.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:But it feels this pull towards something higher, it feels this pull towards something that's more purposeful, that will literally allow it to soar. Like what's flying, you know, when you're a caterpillar. So it's really about taking that step. And again, quickly to talk back on the uh caterpillar transformation, it steps onto a branch, it steps onto something. And so that's support. So we have to remember that even when things are scary, we're never gonna have to do it alone.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:All the things we've accomplished in our life and will accomplish, we don't do it alone. Nothing I've achieved has been alone. You know, it's been mentors, it's been books sometimes. It's been listening to Joyce Meyer back in the day before I'd go to work, you know.
SPEAKER_07:We love Joyce.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And so you have to do it scared, you have to pay attention to that pull and know that it's real and not allow doubt and fear to literally cripple you because a lot of people, the majority of people, I have to look up the latest statistics, don't take the step.
SPEAKER_08:Wow. I'm thinking about one thing I feel like I talk about constantly is the power of mentorship. Um, and a lot of young adults and young people I know really struggle with identifying mentors. I don't know if I ever told you this, but when I when uh when I first started in my role, I was director of campus life for about two and a half years. When I first started in that role, I saw you at an event and I said to myself, she's gonna be my mentor.
SPEAKER_01:But I remember you you stepped up though. When I re I I can picture where you saw me. We were like in a vestibule area, like in a hallway or something. And it's funny, I didn't know you were deciding I was gonna be your mentor, but you stood out because you were so forthcoming. You introduced yourself, or you either introduced yourself or you reminded me where I'd met you before it was, but you you you spoke up. Yeah, and that is something that I actually in my new book, new book plug, in my hand book, in my new book, getting out of your own way, I have a section in there about mentorships, seeking mentors and sponsorships and so forth, because there's a difference between a mentor and a sponsor. Absolutely. And so sometimes you have to be proactive. Sometimes it's gonna be someone you know well, sometimes it won't be. It might not be someone who looks like you, it might not be the same race, might not be the same gender. If you feel led to uh connect with this person in a way that's tied to your purpose, then it's up to you to do that. And no one is gonna be insulted or put off by your reaching out to them and requesting some time and space. Ask them to make space for you uh to help them grow. It most people are honored and flattered and want to give back. And another piece of this uh also in the book is follow up. It's one thing to read. out to someone it's another thing to follow up and a lot of people you know people say yes I'll help you or they get a business card in an event and then it stops there so it's it's a full circle relationship and uh but you have to be I was getting on the calendar I was getting you were on the calendar yep yep you had to be because uh executives are busy yeah but they are willing to make the time but you have to sometimes keep yourself front burner in their lives or you have to you know realize that they don't may not have they may not be able to give you a half a day you know yeah but they might be able to give you 30 minutes.
SPEAKER_08:No and I you know I I remember uh when I was able to get on the schedule because I would like call your admin and be like hey how do I get on the schedule and she was like we can't get you in for a month and she has an hour right here and I was like I don't care what I have going on I'm going to make that hour work but I always try to be intentional about how I spent your time um and and making sure that I was showing up prepared and making sure that I did what you told me to do. You know when you told me to make a vision board I made a vision board when you told me to read something I read it and I think more than anything I look back at that time and I see the fruit of what it what was what was invested in me in those days I see the fruit of it now. Like it's come to pass. Like we talked about what my new house would look like one day. And then like four years later it came to pass. Yes you know like we talked about traveling and speaking and and then the podcast came you know and so the things that you have to see it as sowing good seed. Not only them sowing good seed into you but you have to be willing to water your own seed sometimes. Yes you have to be willing to get in the spaces where what they told me I'm going to nurture it so that it grows.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely you are example of someone who's coachable I coach I have coached and still coach a lot of people not everybody's coachable not everybody's coachable and um it it's usually fear some some people who I coach we have to stay in the mindset part of the transformation model for a very long time and that's okay I don't mind doing that because it makes no sense to push them forward if they're not ready. Yeah and not ready usually looks like mentally.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_08:Because there's also a stick with itness that's gonna come when you're journeying toward any goal especially one that terrifies you and if you don't have your strong mindset and your strong reasons for even heading in that direction answering that pull answering that call it's gonna make it easy for you to give up yeah I I I think it's so interesting because you know we're talking about first acts and you as this transformation coach and guys her when I tell you her signature is the butterfly the way that Dr. Knowles can teach about a butterfly and carry you through the stages of a butterfly it's masterful. And I'm just gonna do a quick plug if you want to hear more about it go find her on YouTube. She has a TED talk okay and it's absolutely fabulous. But I I think it's so interesting that as a transformation coach you're often helping people through their first act right as you're like helping them to navigate through those stages um and as you helped me I was in my first act um I'm still I just started transitioning you know because there's many acts you know and you can look back on your life now and say okay this part of my career was kind of I can clump it all together now but as you were going through it there were many transitions. There were many pivots um and I think you know I I when I think back to some of the things besides really good mentorship that helped me to transition from kind of one stage to another and change mindsets. I think about some of the books that I read and one of the books that had just a really a really un I just didn't see it coming impact was Stephen Covey when he talked about um the seven uh seven habits of highly successful people that hit me so hard because I yeah I just didn't I didn't know that I needed that level of reflection what are some things that as you have been coaching people through their first act because I I believe this is part of how you've been moving forward in your second act and in all of the things that you're doing now what are some of the things that you have found when you talk about mindset what are some things that you have noticed naturally people need to reflect on in order to kind of rewrite and redefine what's next so when coaching people and when I'm in the mindset stage with people and you you revisit mindset without throughout your journey toward any goal but you do have to have this foundational grasp on your mindset before you can really take action and really start heading toward it I think the and I mentioned fear so having people identify their fears when I when I coach people one on one it's not counseling but we do go deep and I give people exercises to help them identify their fears admit their fears even to themselves and so increase their awareness that they're terrified and try to challenge them to and teach them how to push past the fears but the other um thing beyond beyond minds excuse me beyond fear it's negativity.
SPEAKER_01:Wow and uh there is you know negative negative mindset positive mindset you can Google that and see the the comparison the contrast between the two I recently attended a conference and they passed out a rubber band to each of us so that we could catch ourselves every time we had um a negative thought because we tend to have thousands of negative thoughts throughout any day and they can they can weigh down the positive thoughts that are there within you and are sometimes coming from others and cause you to reject them most of the people who are truly not coachable are people who are negative about almost everything. And that negative lens is that a negative lens combined with fear also is it's a showstopper. And so I I have tools that I use and sometimes I refer people to books but I have tools that I use to help people work through their fears and work through their their negativity and to and little I I literally sometimes have to stop people mid-sentence and say did you hear how you just said that and have them reframe it. And when you're not used to that and sometimes that comes from family background. Wow you know seeing the glass half full like all the time with everything it's not a muscle that you've if it's not a muscle you've used, you have to train it just like any other muscle in our body but if if you're negative about everything you're not gonna be able to imagine it happening whatever the it is for you. You're anything as you know as someone who does charge for toward goals and achieve them and pivot, you're gonna have roadblocks you're gonna have hiccups sometimes you're gonna have a major setback and if you're negative and trapped in fear you're going to let those things stop you. And what you really have to do and I try to help people learn how to do this you have to stay in position you have to stay biblically you have to stay on the wall. You have to stay on the wall stay on the wall you have to stay in position. You have to trust that this thing that you're going toward is what you're supposed to be doing even if you don't know how yet. And you just you have because as you know sometimes your next pivot might be right around the corner but you jumped off you abandoned it you abandoned it.
SPEAKER_08:You abandoned it and I think a lot of times we don't realize when we left it we don't realize when we left it and we're still there are things that we're still hoping for but you don't realize that you got off course. Exactly and you can get back on course yeah but that but that's the way to the thing it is that you know you might do a a huge turn and go up a street but you have to find your way back exactly to your intended path.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely and you speaking of path you mentioned my uh my TED talk which I it's almost been 10 years since I did that but I talk about I talk a little bit about this because it's about the power of not setting goals and the reason I phrase it that way and still talk about it that way is because another way to be negative and another way to hold on to fear is to be rigid. And so if you are so rigid that you only see this one way that your life can go you're gonna miss signs along the way the road might be curvy you know you might meet some people along the way that take you it doesn't because if you're on the path and you make a slight right it doesn't mean you're not still headed in the right direction. It just means that there's something else that you're supposed to do along the way but it might expose you to something for your life that you never even knew existed. Wow and so being rigid is another mindset thing that can hold people back.
SPEAKER_08:And and that rigidity can land you in a career that you never intended to be in it can also prevent you from moving forward in the things that you're supposed to be in. Absolutely we keep ourselves from where we're supposed to be because we we want control. I think being rigid a lot of times is about maintaining control. Like I want the things that I I can understand and that I can keep kind of in the box. And so that keeps you stuck a lot of times and I can only talk about it because I've been there.
SPEAKER_01:Me too me too and that's that's all just tied to fear. Yeah wanting to control is the opposite of just free falling and trusting and moving forward.
SPEAKER_08:Wow let me tell you something let me tell you about the free fall okay let me tell you about the free fall let me tell you joke free the free fall is no joke you know you know I was uh I was talking I was actually uh mentoring somebody just yesterday and I was telling her hope she was I hope she's watching but I was telling her you know when we talk about faith we act as if if you take one step if you take a step forward you'll get more understanding and clarity but you don't get it until you take the step and a lot of times we are stuck and we are afraid of what we don't know and you will continue to not know and have and not have any understanding about where God is leading you if you don't take the step because it's not that God wants to withhold understanding and knowledge and information and revelation from us we have to walk with him and so if you take the step and walk with him you can walk into understanding you can walk but you have to make the move and oftentimes it's Peter stepping out of the boat that was the hard part it is it is it is the it is the looking at the water and seeing the water but seeing Jesus and saying okay I guess I'll step out here I guess I'll step out here anyway um right that's what I love about your story because as you are just thinking through somebody who started as an administrative assistant right who started working and this we could talk about the the importance of service we can talk about the importance of humility right here right right you started by working for what you would become you served it before you became it yes I never thought about it like that thank you that's what you did right and you served your way up yes you know like you you you you uh you found a purpose in in helping and not in just leading and when we think about the development of a leader when I think about your your first act and how you navigated through it I mean I think it's only appropriate that like your signature theme is transformation because you were literally in a process of becoming right and so like you were serving your way but as you were serving you were becoming and it becomes this two-edged iron sharpening iron moment where as I'm serving and as I'm giving I'm also being elevated and sharpened for what I'm going to become and what I will essentially have to do. And so I'm really interested in knowing what was the process of becoming like what were what were the things that you uh had to sacrifice and what were some of the things that you gained through your becoming wow so and I talk about a lot of these in in my first book It's your time to soar because it's the the main areas yes thank you shameless book clue but I really do talk about the five transformation steps and because I I talk about my life and I give examples from different categories of my life career uh weight loss journey uh marriage and divorce and and and education and some other things and I also give examples of other people and um wow the moving through if I had to think of one overarching theme that uh that runs through all of my different transformations is this I had to give up being understood you had to give up you know even you know think about it I was a caterpillar and I was a caterpillar in all those different categories I just described and I was still around cat I mean I have friends who were still caterpillars and so even let's take the quick quick career example I I was and I still am I do love serving and so when I was quote unquote moving up I was volunteering for all sorts of things on campus I was stepping in to be an interim this that or the other I was I never honestly was ever doing it because oh this will be good to my resume let me this will I want to be I I wasn't I just it was a natural organic part of the way I show up yeah and but other people were you're gonna let them use you like that you know they're taking advantage of you and I can't mm if that was me if that was me you know a lot of that and so uh being misunderstood uh being people making the assumption that I was doing things to to kiss up or to move up and and learning to not worry about that yeah and um that was that was a part of my growth even when I um went through a divorce I'm in my second marriage now we've been married six years just had an anniversary yay Mr.
SPEAKER_01:No happy anniversary yes thank you and um but in my first marriage when I when I um sought the divorce and and and was going through that process I had someone uh who was a friend of ours who was like but that is your husband and I mean they really you know they didn't know everything yeah they didn't know everything and so again misunderstood but needed to stay in position for how what I felt was the right trajectory for my life um and and seek of seeking help continuously having mentors and people like we talked about and just being willing to uh take steps even though I didn't necessarily see what others saw I had opportunities that that fell into my lap I know that was God that put me in situations that I felt a little premature like in that way you know yeah and so but doing it doing it anyhow and doing it unapologetically and but always serving and as as I moved up it gave me an opportunity to serve more students because as as you get in bigger in higher ed as you get into bigger and higher roles you have less regular contact with students but the things you do impact more students.
SPEAKER_08:And um and then also to this day I still thoroughly enjoy mentoring people who are working in higher ed trying to figure out how to how to navigate this thing how to move up when do I go back and get a PhD you know and when do I do that and what does that look like I see your face I want to let y'all know for all of y'all because uh people who follow the unlearned podcast know how they followed my struggle through the PhD and I I I actually I actually love research and I love the program I'm in but let me tell you about this working full time and getting a PhD life I want y'all okay because the day before the application was due I talked to her because I told her I said I don't think I'm gonna do it she was remember I told you sometimes it's not a suggestion it exists it was exactly exactly yeah doing things like that you know I've when I was working full time I started the business that I'm doing full time now but I had to dabble I I just attended a conference they call it I had to flirt with I was flirting with my business because I didn't have the the bandwidth and the capacity to do what I'm able to do full time.
SPEAKER_01:Another thing I gave up and this was also consistent through everything and talking about grad school made me think about it. You give up social you give up a lot of social life and again people don't always understand that you don't have time to go to every cook and Out. You don't have time to lay across the bed and talk to a friend for a couple of hours. You just literally don't have the time. And so one thing you learn, and we've all heard about you know people being in our lives for a season.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That really gets put to the test when you are striving toward a big pivot, towards your next act. Yeah. Next act. Yeah. Because you've got to let some people fall off.
SPEAKER_08:Ooh. And so I'm going back, my mind went back to where you talked about how that caterpillar goes up onto a branch and it has to have support in the midst of its transition. And I'm really seeing kind of this cocoon metaphor kind of being an intermission, right? Like I had my first act as a caterpillar. Now I'm I'm going backstage for a little bit. Right? I'm getting away from the crowd. I'm getting away from the way that everybody knew me. And I'm I'm coming into a place within myself where I'm reflecting and I'm also being built for where I have to go. Right. Because when we think about intermissions, we're going backstage, we're changing clothes, we're we're preparing for what the next scene is going to bring to us, for what the next act will reveal. Um, and I'm thinking about that that caterpillar being on that branch and thinking through, you know, who's gonna be with you afterwards if they were able to support you in your intermission. Yes. If you could lean on them or if if they could, if not, you know, my friends don't understand everything about where I am right now, but I know that I can put some weight on them while I'm in the midst of my transition. But I've also had people, I have also had people that I've had to recognize maybe you're a friend, but not a close one. Or maybe, maybe, maybe I maybe I don't, I can't rest on you in my cocoon season. Right. Maybe this isn't a place where I can be supported. Oh, Dr. Nelsie, I told y'all. You give her, you give her a butterfly metaphor, and now my mind is my mind is spinning.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, there's more. There's more. So this might be a good time for me to talk about this cocoon, this intermission. I love the way you intersected those because this is in I I've I have studied, I don't always have the the scientific terms front of front of my brain, but I have studied, I've learned more about caterpillars and butterflies than I ever thought I I would. But one thing that has stood out is this uh chrysalis stage, which is the cocoon stage. And you mentioned climbing, you mentioned support, that is the most vulnerable stage in the transformation of a caterpillar becoming a butterfly. And if you if you listen, if you think about this in terms of our life, our uh acts, and we have all these scenes within an act, and then the intermission. When you're when you're striving toward a goal, when you're making a major transformation, preparing for a major pivot, you're gonna head into this cocoon stage where you're alone. A caterpillar goes into this stage and it's dark, yeah, it's alone, it's hanging there, vulnerable, but to your point, the support, the strong support is still there. It's it but it's hanging there, it's not really able to move or defend itself, it's dark. And I I've actually done a um a spiritual thing about this because that's when God, you know, shows up and carries you and holds you when it's dark. But if you read about the transformation of a caterpillar to a butterfly, this is where this is where the most rigorous, strenuous, ugly part of it happens. Wow. And you know from things you've done, from going through your uh journey right now, earned to earning a PhD. There comes a time when it's just you. It's just it's just you in that decision, it's just you walking into that room for that interview. Yeah, it's you know, you could have had coaches and friends giving you fist bumps and cheering you on, but in everything we are, and I said earlier we're not alone, but there is a moment in every journey where it's just you. And what are you gonna do? Are you gonna hold on? Are you going to uh die in there? Yeah, because what happens is a miracle with the caterpillar, it completely transforms, it dies and completely becomes something else. Wow, and it is the most ugly, gruesome process.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:And then as it goes through the process, there's this thin layer that appears, and you start seeing what is to come.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:You start seeing the pattern of what are going to be wings, and then it starts working its way out. So for me, and some of this I'm gonna share, you you may not have known, you know, as I moved up in in higher ed, and I was in my second vice presidency where you and I both worked, and people were starting to chatter to me about presidencies. You should be a president. I can see you being a president. Oh my god, you'd be a great president. Some version of that concept, even from a couple of mentors.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But I knew deep within that that wasn't uh the next step for me.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so I had to go into a cocoon stage. I had to take this to God. This was like God in me. Yeah. And even when I um seriously considered pursuing a presidency because a mentor was really heavily encouraging me, well-intentioned, just like people well-intentioned when I was a teenager saying, No, don't go into mass communication and journalism. Well-intentioned. I literally got sick. My body literally told me that this will take you off course. Wow. I was sick for about two weeks. Oh my god. And so again, in that cocoon, it's dark and it's gruesome. Um but I also had to realize that I had some something had been off when okay, let me back up a little bit. So my newest book, I dedicated it to Antonette Kendia Bailey. And some people will recognize that name, some will not. But in January 2024, she took her life. And she was an African American female vice president for student affairs.
SPEAKER_02:Whoa. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And something about that and it allegedly was related to things she went through in the workplace.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:And at the times when I was most honest with myself, I was like, okay, yes, I've I've I'm I'm a vice president, but something's not quite right. And and some of that not quite rightness is sometimes what happens for African American, I'm gonna use my lens, African-American females showing up in these executive spaces, not necessarily fully welcome. And there I used to use microaggressions, now I just say aggressions. Uh, some of the things that I went through, I'm sure are some of the things that she allegedly went through. And that was a turning point for me. And it was, I was still in the cocoon because I was already starting to flirt with the idea of I think it's time to make a change.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And honoring her memory by dedicating my book to her, I see it as giving voice to things that she um is no longer able to be here to give voice to. And I also talk a lot about uh Harriet Tubman's journey because it's very communal and but brave, like that extra ounce of courage. And so um my my biggest cocoon stage in my life, and there have been many, was the decision to exit higher education, to retire full retirement. I thankfully had been around long enough to have full retirement, but to retire in my 50s, my late 50s, but still my 50s, and to leap into something that I'd never been, which is now a full-time entrepreneur.
SPEAKER_08:That was powerful. That was powerful, and I think sometimes we don't realize that staying somewhere too long or going after something, like it it can literally make you ill. It could literally take you out of here. You know, um this might be a sensitive topic, and producer Joy will let me know if she approves or not. But when I I think back, I took a lot of American and African American history courses um when I got my divinity degree. And one thing that I always thought through was how so many people who uh were owners of slaves are kind of in that slave market, how they literally the mental illness that they suffered through, right? And the things that the things that they held, because being in those type of positions where you are you are literally exercising a power or a position that you're not supposed to have. Yes, it can literally take you out of here, yes, and it and it it fit with the times, it fit the culture of the day, wrong as it may have been, but it fit the culture of the day, it's what everyone else was doing. But you literally could not take it. And sometimes as we are going through our own journeys and we're trying to do what everyone else is telling us to do because it's what they did and it's what we were taught that we were supposed to continue going up the ladder. Like, you know, when I when I mentor young professionals now, which I was mentored, so I I pay it back, I pay it forward. When I mentor young professionals and I ask them what their end goal is, and they say, I want to be a college president, I'm like, okay. Some of them are completely that that that fits. Some of them they don't know what else to dream for. And we were all we were taught that the only way you can be important is to be at the top. But do you know the pressure? Do you have to be, we we are commissioned, we are built, we are manufactured for purpose. Yes, you are built for something in specific. And you know, when I think about kind of your first act, you were absolutely built for that, but you were you were created, you were purposed for where you are now. Yes. And you have to, you have to, there comes a point, you mentioned a turning point. There comes a point in your journey where you have to decide, am I gonna do what makes sense or am I gonna do what's in me to do? It's literally in the caterpillar to become a butterfly. It might make sense to stay on the ground and you might be really good at groundwork, but it is in you to become a butterfly. Absolutely. And you have to know that. You have to know that, and I love that you dedicated your book to someone who endured that struggle so that we all could have that lesson.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Can I say something else about purpose? Because please maybe oh, I didn't want to interrupt your thought pattern, but uh, you really are making me think about something else with purpose. So, yes, we are built for per we are built for a purpose.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:An overarching purpose because that can show it can show up and it can show up in many little other purposes that all are under the same umbrella. For sure. But our purpose, and I I heard this, I can't even claim this. I heard this recently. Um, we are our purpose is not just for us. So when we stay stuck in our caterpillar stage, when we say stuck, stay stuck in fear, when we stay stuck in negativity and don't start heading into our purpose, we're missing what we're supposed to be doing because there are people assigned to us.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Or we are assigned to people. So when we when we don't, when we give up, there are let's say five people, but it might be 500, might be 5,000. Now what we were the I'm not saying this very well. The work that we were supposed to do, the impact that we were supposed to make on those five people is now denied to them.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Because we stayed stuck. So purpose is greater than serving us and getting a certain house or a certain car, or just feeling centered and aligned, and all those things are are great and fine, but we're it's bigger than us. Yeah, we are assigned to people who are waiting for us to get it together, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And we don't have the luxury, or maybe even the right, of just staying on the ground. Yes. What if what you don't have the right?
SPEAKER_01:No.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And it's like, it's like, and I heard it again, can't I wish I could say I thought of this, but I heard someone say it this way. It's almost an arrogance of assuming that God's gonna give us another day. Yeah. I'll get around to it when I get over this fear or feel like it. But if you're put on this earth to do something and you know that you keep getting nugged like you're in a bumper car to stay in position for where he has you headed, it's tied to something greater, it's tied to other people. There might be something that you're about to do with your life, Jaquita, that is going to save the life of a single mom. Wow, with nine children. I just met someone who has nine children. Um, so um, it's we don't have the right to give up.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:We don't have the right to my life, it is not my own, first of all. I don't have the right or the luxury of not walking in my purpose. And so now I feel aligned. Yes. And it it was time to leave higher ed and do what I'm doing. And I can still serve higher ed. I still work with higher ed in what I do now, but it's through a whole different lens that is very much on track with where I know God is taking me now. There might be places He's taking me that I'm not aware of yet. But when I feel that pull, I have to go. I don't have the right to not go.
SPEAKER_08:We I feel like we have been taught to build kingdoms on the ground instead of looking up and figuring out where the next move is. Yes. And so we've been taught, you know, take take take this ground and make it amazing. Yes. Instead of looking up and saying, well, maybe there's more. Yeah. Maybe I'm not, I have not yet become all that I'm supposed to be. Right. I love it. I love it. I love it. Okay. I want to talk about retirement. Okay. I want to talk about the second act. All right. You have done, you were an amazing vice president. I was there to witness it. An amazing college executive. I there's there's literally no one where we work that did not like Dr. Knowles. Okay. She was our favorite in the administrative suite. Okay, I'll say it because I don't work there anymore. Um, but you know, an absolutely just amazing professional, an amazing career. And now we have pivoted to the second act. And we the middle adults, we the middle adults want to know how is what does purpose look like in retirement?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, purpose looks like freedom. Purpose tastes like freedom. And you know, I mentioned Harriet Tubman. I I literally do a presentation uh called Aram Aramenta Boss. She was born um as Aramenta Ross, but I renamed her Aramenta Boss. She's a Ross? She's a Ross. How did I not know this? It was a boss. That's a little pan for me for later. But it it feels and tastes like freedom, and it is hard work. I you can ask my husband, he'll come home from working, and I'm still in my office grinding and grinding and grinding. And I I work just as many, if not more, hours than I did as a vice president. Those are some long hours, but it it feels free, it feels natural, it feels um scary at times, it feels hard at times, and that's good for me because it keeps me trying to figure it out, it keeps me seeking help, it keeps me wanting to be around people who have figured it out so that I can reach that next level. And um, and it makes me, like Harriet Tubman, want to get into the position where I can go back and help other people. I have an opportunity by having retired from higher ed and stepped out of this cocoon, and oh, I'm still on a branch, I got shaky legs, and I'm because when you come out of the cocoon as a brand new butterfly, I've never been a butterfly before. I've never been a full-time entrepreneur before. So it's a little shaky, and and but I'm getting my wings, I'm kind of uh oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Okay, so real quick detour when when the butterfly, when what's now a butterfly comes out of the cocoon, it I forgot the word for it, but if you think about this spiritually, there's something that is equivalent to what we as humans refer to as blood that pumps into the wings so that the butterfly can be prepared to fly. So wow. That's you can preach that. I'll let you preach that. Oh my god, I won't. So um, you know, it's it's I'm still having to do things scared or tired, and but I feel hopeful. I feel clear about what I'm supposed to do next. I may not have clarity about what the big picture is, but I do have a vision board for or two for it. Um, but yeah, the overall feeling is freedom to do what I need to do, want to do the way I want to. I don't have to code switch. As an entrepreneur, like I had to in the workplace. I had to. I had to survive. And um, but it was exhausting. And um so it is the freedom to uh see myself the way God sees me and it's the freedom to use my voice, wow, the freedom to think bigger and not have to wait for someone else to hand an opportunity to me. When you work, okay, so you middle adulters, when you work for someone else, not saying everybody has to be an entrepreneur, but here's the reality when you work for someone else, you have put yourself in a situation where someone else can turn off your career like walking in the room and hitting a light switch. Wow. So leaving higher ed where I worked on work for someone else, depended on someone else, worked for a system that was not necessarily defined for me or made for me. And now I have a sense of I don't want to say control, but I have a sense of of freedom. And that even means freedom to fail. Yeah. You know, and and a deep sense of knowing that it's gonna be okay. I don't even know what that means. I don't know what that looks like, but it's okay to not know.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so um, I know I keep saying the same thing over again, but it truly is freeing. And it's not overnight. You know, I described some of the process it took to even get to the point to be courageous enough. Like when you retire, you know, your income drops, unless you have prepared for it to be at a level where it can literally remain the same and feel you feel no financial shift at all. Um, but you know, I've part of my pivots, and it's in the book. I'm very open. You know me, I'm very honest. Yeah, I've I had foreclosure after my first divorce. I had more than$50,000 in credit card debt. I had a student loan, all that is zeroed out now.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:And I've bought a new house, everything, no, no special interest rate, no God just worked it out so He's done so much good that that's why I choose not to complain and look at the bad. Uh and I have the freedom to do that. Um, so I would say to the middle adulters to where what wherever you are, just realize that you are going to have to take a risk, more than likely. You are have to you will have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. You have to do it with your legs shaking. You will likely have to go into a cocoon where you are relying on yourself, which you know, with my belief system, that means relying on God, but not where someone's gonna tell you everything you need to do or how you need to do it or help you do it. You know, you have to be courageous enough to use that next 10% of courage that it takes to not freeze and not give up. Um you have to I also will say to middle adulters, you know, you might have setbacks. You will likely have setbacks. But remember, it's a climb. So every time you're climbing, you're building muscles.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And some of the muscles you develop were from the last thing you did where you made it. Well, you achieved it. And so remind yourself when you're when you're ready for that next uh scary thing, big thing. And for some of you, it might be a college president or a corporate CEO or something like that, and that's okay. But remind yourself of all the other successes you've experienced and use those muscles and and maybe even do it better than you did the last time you achieve something. And achievement becomes addictive. It's a good feeling. And when you do it, just like we're assigned to people who are waiting for us to get it together, um, there's also people always watching us. And you've probably experienced that even now, Jaquita. And uh I've had people who've come back to me and told me I inspired them. I don't I might not remember their name. I didn't I didn't know they were watching. I wasn't doing things to be watched. And so you you never know who you're helping by choosing to be courageous and and to not be afraid. And for some of you, you know, middle middle adulthood is you know, I I kind of wish not I try not to be regretful, but you still have a lot of life left. You still, you know, God willing, have a lot of years left. You can completely flip the script if you want to. I know I have a dear friend who I knew her from childhood. She went to college, became an engineer. In her middle adult years, she went back to school and became a physician. Wow. She's been a physician for years.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:And it wasn't easy to become an engineer and a black female engineer at that, you know, and so do big scary stuff and be okay with it.
SPEAKER_08:You know, I have talked to so many uh middle adults who will tell me something like, I always wanted to be a lawyer. You know, like they're there a lot of them are working in higher ed because that's the world I'm in. And they're like, I wanted to be a lawyer, like that was my dream. You know, they're you know in their 40s and they're like they don't see how they can get there because now they have these full lies. But I think that that's so key what you said, that we are still, you know, a lot of times we give the, you know, try something new to the young adults. Like, oh, let the babies do it. You know, we're little adult. You we're middle adults, but we still what I hear you saying is there's still time. And even for you who had the opportunity to, you know, retire, but not retire and like, you know, just rest. And and I hope you're doing that, but you know, retire and still pursue. Okay, Dr. Nelson. Retire and pursue, you know, and retire and still be in purpose and retire because there's something bigger and there's something greater, right? I think that like there is still time to reinvent. There is still time to go after the thing that when you were back there in childhood, you knew you were supposed to be in some sort of communications role. You knew you were supposed to be speaking to people, you knew you were supposed to be helping to navigate people through their journeys, you knew you were there. There's still time. Yes. And so I think I I just really, really appreciate your message today because even, you know, me as a middle adult, I think about how I've navigated my own career, starting in the classroom and then moving into student affairs and student services, and then now being back in kind of this academic, more administrative space, and I feel like I'm at a place where I have a blank slate. And the message that you gave me today is the exact message of the podcast, right? That we have an opportunity to reflect back on where we've been so that we can redefine and rewrite what's next. And so if you are feeling like, as Dr. Knowles has beautifully delineated for us, if you are feeling like you are the butterfly, that you are the caterpillar that's been in the cocoon, and you're getting ready to break forth, I want you to know that where you're going now, you're in a new atmosphere, you're in a new season, you're in a new time, and you have the opportunity to rewrite a narrative that can become your second act. Absolutely. I love it. Dr. Nose, the people are gonna want to know how to get in contact with you, how to get these books, how to get the coaching, how they can find out more about what you're doing. How do they get connected to you?
SPEAKER_01:So the main the easiest way is to go to my website, which is Mattilspeaks.com. That's M-A-T-T-E-E-L speaks.com. From there, the very first thing I want you to do is to sign up for my free monthly newsletter. It is literally where once a month, first Sunday of every month, I send something out to just spark joy for you, to motivate you, to inspire you. I give you reflection questions that you can think about, journal prompts, all about transformation. So I've had some people who like, oh, this was just on time. And I share, I share from a real place and give examples and just try to um be in that space of helping. You can also order um my first book, the yellow one you see in the back, it's your time to soar, five steps to transform your life. That's available on paperback and hardcover. I also have a workbook that is sort of set up like a journal for you to answer some of the questions that I have at the end of each chapter. It's kind of a working book to really take you through a process. And then I'm so excited that you can also get my new book, um, Getting Out of Your Own Way, self-sabotaging uh habits in the workplace. I'm really excited about this. And again, this is the one that I dedicated to Dr. Candia Bailey because this is where you get to learn from some of my mistakes, some of the mistakes from other people, some of the things I've observed by being a leader for so many years. And as middle adulters, you get to like work on getting it together now and not have to go through some of the things that we had to go through. It also comes also available as a workbook, and there's case studies in here that allow you to really unpack all these. And there's like 31 self-sabotaging habits that I address in the book and the workbook. And Jaquita, as you mentioned earlier, I'm also in the process of developing an online course that will uh be self-guided, that you can do at your own pace to really help you do some self-reflection, acknowledge the things you're doing well, and really um kind of set your career on a course that's not riddled with self-sabotaging habits. One that I was really guilty of for many, many years was um ignoring when I was being ignored. And that's what the first chapter is about. Oh, wait a minute.
SPEAKER_08:Okay, all right, I'll be getting my copy. Um, so make sure you guys get yours. Okay, because that alone, okay, that that's a key selling point right there. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:That was important for me to like open with that because that that was that defined me for so long until I got it together. And also, um, a coach, I'm a transformation coach. And so I'm not a life coach. A life coach is really about how do I want my life to look. As a transformation coach, what I focus on is all right, tell me your goal. Let's work on a goal, or really no more than three. I like to zoom in on one and let's help you get there. I can either help you get it started and tell you what's needed for you to finish, or we can lock arms and go through and I can continue working with you together. And also, I'm a speaker. I love to get in front of groups and do uh workshops and really connect with you uh around a lot of the kind of things we've talked about today. So Matthealspeaks.com is where you can find out about all those services, order books, and sign up for my free newsletter.
SPEAKER_08:Yes, I love it. Dr. Nose, thank you so much. I'm just so grateful that we got to hear your story of transformation and everything that you taught us today. It was amazing.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, thank you for the opportunity to be here. This has been amazing, and it feels so aligned with uh my purpose to just be able to talk and unpack some of these things. And it's it's so critical. And again, not everybody's here to have the voice to do this. And so it's an honor and an um it really sparks joy for me to be able to do so.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, I love it. Listen, friends, this is the end of the podcast. You do not have to stay stuck in intermission. Raise the curtain and walk into your second act. We'll see y'all next time.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you once again for listening to the Unlearned Podcast. We would love to hear your comments and your feedback about the episode. Feel free to follow us on Facebook and Instagram and to let us know what you think. We're looking forward to the next time when we are able to unlearn together to move forward towards freedom. See you then.
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