It’s Time To Level Up: Negotiate Your Worth

We get practical about salary negotiation by breaking down how leaders think about budgets, value, and long-term plans, then show how to bring your rare strengths into the interview and the ask. We also zoom out to talk culture, wellness, and faith so you can accept an offer with peace and not just a number. 

• why most employers already have a number in mind 
• making a business case by connecting your work to revenue or expenses 
• showing your rare and valuable thing in the interview 
• researching the organization’s mission, context, and priorities 
• listening for what the leader truly values and negotiating to that 
• staying ahead of change and learning tools as work evolves 
• negotiating more than salary including time, flexibility, and support 
• reading culture signals and looking for leadership transparency 
• using the walk-away option when values do not align 
Yeah, like, share, subscribe, folks. Like, share, subscribe. 
Feel free to follow us on Facebook and Instagram and to let us know what you think.

Transcript

Level Up Series Kickoff

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Hello, everybody, and welcome once again to the Unlearned Podcast. I'm your host with Abby Gill, a K-A-R-A. What up, friends? It's your girl, Jaquita. This is the podcast that is helping you gain the courage to change your mind so that you, yes, you can experience more freedom. Listen, people, we back.

Why You Should Always Negotiate

SPEAKER_03 0:24

All right, it's time for another episode. This is the level up series. Yes. Okay, it's gonna be a short series, but impactful. Okay, because you know, we gotta, we gotta get to these next places in our lives. We do. And I feel like a lot of us are kind of right on the brink of it. And so today we're gonna we're gonna lean just a tad bit more practical, but we still got that, still got that hot fire for you. Um I can't tell fire. What show is that from? I can't tell you. Making the band! What's wrong with you? Oh, making the band, making the band. Actually, it's from Chappelle's parody of Making the Band, which was also just as funny. But nevertheless, uh a little trip down memory lane. You know, I I am excited to talk about today. Uh I I work with graduate students. So a lot of a lot of graduate students, their entire world is focused around leveling up. They're like, hey, I came to get this advanced degree so that I could go back out into the workforce and ask for some things and elevate and move to the next level. And a lot of times they want to talk specifically about the space of interview, um, job, accepting the job and negotiations, baby. Okay, negotiations. You got to negotiate that thing. Okay, you don't ever accept the offer as is unless, unless the people who gave the offer just just threw that thing together just right, you know, just just so, you know, and I will say one of my last jobs, my boss, when he sent me the job offer, he said, Hey Jaquita, we're just really excited, you know, to possibly have you on the team. And he will say, I want to let you know this is my final and best offer. That was how he presented. He's like, I want to give you our best offer. This is this is it. Do you want to do that?

SPEAKER_00 2:30

It's your side to say, don't ask for no more.

SPEAKER_03 2:33

Yeah. And he was like, hey, listen, you can try to negotiate and waste both of our times. Right. But the budget says that's right. That this is the most I've I've given you the top of the salary. Yes. I've given you all I could give. All right. What you want to do.

How Employers Set Their Number

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Yep, yep. That's this is gonna be interesting for me personally. I'm not a I I have never I have never negotiated a salary. Partly because of this is the the positions I've been in have been lar, I've been a lot of times um the the I've been new positions. So like I'm starting something. And so there's really no way to know what it's worth yet, because it's like, hey, we we all just kind of starting. But um, so I but one thing that I do think, and as I was thinking about this and coming into this conversation, I I negotiate based up I fundraise, which is its other its own form of negotiation. And so I don't necessarily negotiate for my personal salary, but I negotiate for um the funds that we raise in our organization. So the way, the angle that I I think I'm learning from it coming from, even though it's not personal, is like it is personal. It doesn't come directly into my pocketbook, but it goes into a fund. And I have to go out and ask people and and and figure out are we a good fit? Is this something, are we of value to you? Do you want to um invest in what we do? This is how much I need. This is what we can, you know, this this is how much, okay, well, this is how much we have. Okay, well, this is where we can, this is what I could take. This makes sense. This is worth my time to fill this grant out. This is not like so, like, I I really come at it from that angle. And I'm I am personally in a in a place right now where I probably am needing to enter into the negotiation space personally, but um, you know, so that's just something I gotta I gotta work through. But that just has been my experience. Uh, but but the and it is important to know what you are asking for, what you need, and then be prepared to do that.

SPEAKER_03 4:44

Listen, and I think you hit on something that's really, really key is that there is oftentimes a gap between what you feel you are worth to an organization and what that organization feels is the worth of that position. That's correct. Because the truth of the matter is that before you interviewed for that position, they likely have assigned a number to it. Right. They they likely have said, hey, this is our top, this is our top number for this role, right? And they also likely have said, wouldn't it be great if we came a little under? Yeah, right. Wouldn't it be great if we, you know, shade 5,000 off of this?

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Wouldn't it be fantastic? You know what? I and I'll let me let me say this because I I'm also the angle I also come from is somebody who is the one who's all doing most of the offering. Like I do that part, like I'm on that side. So the way that organizations, companies, people think, I'm usually thinking like that. And so it's she's the op, y'all. She's the op. Hey, and let me just that's cool. And I'm here to help you understand how people like us think. Because what what I I have that, I have that I have this conversation. I actually had this conversation uh with my sister. We have these kind of conversations all the time. Rhoda is a Rhoda, that's my sister. She's amazing at what she does. Hey, Rhoda. She that girl. People, no, seriously, she's sought after in her field. And um, and so she's getting offers all the time, honestly, like to do this and do that.

SPEAKER_03 6:23

Y'all see y'all see Ruth Abigail's little proud face. She's getting offers all the time. She is. I'm so proud of her.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

And so I and so we talk, we have this conversation a lot of just like me kind of sharing the perspective of the executive side who's making the decisions, making the offer. And here, here's how here's here's some game on how they're probably thinking. And then on your end, you're like, well, I think I deserve this. Maybe you do, but understand that they may be thinking this. And you know, so just just to so I I am here to present that uh that side as well. Listen.

SPEAKER_03 6:59

And I I think I I I in higher ed, this is the way it goes, all right. It's often not a lot of room for negotiating, especially, you know, I work at a state institution, okay, and that state institution is like, Abra, this is what it is. All right. We we we not finna go back and forth. The one time, the one time we did allow someone to negotiate, and it was for so little. When I say it it really didn't make a real difference in his pocket at all. But when I tell you cause an uproar, cause an uproar for that little bit of pocket change. Okay, I'm talking about he could get an extra Chick-fil-A meal every month. And it caused an uproar, you know, and so I think that negotiating is something that you have to learn how to do. I think it's important to do because I think it's important that you you you off-jump let people know hey, I know you have a, I know you have a line item, I know you have a budget. I'm I'm well aware of how, you know, organizational budgets work. But I need you to know that the impact of who I am and what I'm gonna do here is going to amplify the way that we use money around here. And so I'm worth every penny. And so I'm gonna ask for more. And you may not be able to give it, but I need you to know what that I know who I am. Can I, all right?

Tie Your Value To Bottom Line

SPEAKER_00 8:38

So I want to bring up um here comes up. No, no, but no, no, no. But I think what you said, this is one of the things that I think. So we we have a few points that we're gonna that we're gonna lay out for you um in the midst of this conversation. And and I'll just jump to this one because you kind of opened the door for it. Is you you you essentially said, I'm I'm I'm I'm paraphrasing, I I'm what my what my value is, what I'm gonna bring to the table is gonna is going to impact what comes into the organization financially. Yeah, okay. That is not something that people often think about um when you're negotiating. If you, if you usually you there's a you know, hopefully there's a range you're working with. And everybody wants the top range. I mean, let's be honest, everybody wants to believe that they want the top. Cool. Uh the two things that you have to be aware of. Number one, that leader, at the end of the day, if they're in the executive position, they're thinking about finances. It is what it is. Something, something in our in our in my field that they say we say all the time, no money, no mission. That is that is you have to think that way. No money, no mission. Hey, and if I don't pay attention to this money, uh none of us, none of us get to be here. So they are thinking about that. If you can articulate in your negotiation, in the way you interview, on your resume, even, that what you bring is going to affect the bottom line, you are going to be more, you are gonna be seen as more valuable immediately. So it's not just about what you do, but is what you do going to affect the fight, going to affect one of two things.

SPEAKER_04 10:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

What goes, what comes in the revenue, and what goes out your expenses. Is it gonna lower expenses or is it gonna increase revenue? And think about that. Be able to connect those dots. And and so especially overpromise though. No, no, no, no, no. Don't overpromise. Don't no, there's no commitment to it because there's things you can't control.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

Don't go in and don't go in saying, and when I'm when I get through in my first year, I'm gonna boom, boom, boom, boom, back.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Because then that's how you get that money taken away. That's it. And that ain't what you're trying to do. You're not committing to an outcome, you're just showing them that you can think like them. And that's important. Like, okay, I'm hiring somebody who understands something beyond even their actual personal responsibility.

SPEAKER_03 11:05

That's really good. And so that's for any level.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

That's for any level. You need to understand that, right? And and and so that's I that's the first thing I want to point out. Like, people you're talking to, I'm telling you, they think it about it. And if they're not thinking about it, the people above them are thinking about it. And so it is definitely part of the conversation. So when they give you a number, they're giving you a number that they value the position at based on what the position is supposed to give. But if you say, I'm going to, I'm gonna show you that I can maximize this position beyond what you think it can be, based on who I am, you have a better shot. You have a better, you have a better shot. You have a better shot. And I'll say my next thing later on. Okay, go ahead.

Interview Strategy And Rare Value

SPEAKER_03 11:48

I think that that is so key though, because and and we're gonna back it up a little bit if you don't mind, Ruth Abigail. Let's back it up to the interview, because you have a thing in the interview, you need to be displaying, you know. I think in the last episode, we talked about that rare and valuable thing, right? You need to know how to communicate the way that you know that you impact organizations, right? Are you the person that comes in and creates structure and builds systems that help us to run more efficiently? Are you the person that gets people really excited and uh help to galvanize energy around ideas? Are you the person that can really set vision and get and get buy-in for people to run with the vision, right? Like you have to know what that rare and valuable thing that you have is, and you have to know how to communicate that in an interview. You have to know how to connect your previous experience, right, to what they're asking for in the job. And I just I'm I'm an intuitive person, so I'm always gonna prioritize this idea of communicating things that are that are not seen or that are not apparent, right? Like you, you need to be able to connect with a larger piece of the vision than what is stated in that position description. Because a lot of times that's what that is the information given to you about the position, right? The information given to you is hey, here are the job responsibilities of this position and what we're hoping that this person will accomplish, the task that we need this person to complete, right? You have to be able to situate that into a bigger picture. That's right. Look at the organization. What's happening in the organization right now? Why, why, why is this uh position important to them, right? If they lost a person, if there was a person previously in that position, what did that person do and what was celebrated about that person, right? Did that person win any awards? Right? What was that person there for 40 years, right? That's gonna tell you a lot about where that position, how people view that position, right? Is it a new position? Why did they create this position? Why is this a new priority for this organization? Why is this something that they said we need this thing that we didn't have before, right? Or is it something that um had a lot of turnover? Yeah, meaning they haven't yet seen what they're hoping to see out of it, or something in that position, the value ascribed to that position doesn't match the amount of work that it takes. And so people uh uh kind of cycle through it very quickly, right? What are the what are the organization's pro strategic priorities? Yes. What are they hoping to accomplish? What have you learned about their mission and vision? What's their presence in the community? Right? Who who are they associated with? Who do they partner with in the community? What other organizations know your organization? And what do they have to say about it? Yeah, right? All of this has to be taken into context with a position description. Yeah. So it's not just, oh yeah, they want me to oversee this department, right? That department fits into a bigger mission for the organization, which fits into a bigger community presence. And all of those things have outcomes. That's good. And how are you connecting your position to the outcomes that they're hoping to see, not just from you, but from the institution at large. And you have to be able to communicate that.

Learn What Leaders Truly Value

SPEAKER_00 15:43

And you have to, and it has to authentically be who you are. Yeah. Like it needs to authentically be who you are, and not just because you like the number and you want to get the job, because that's going to come out pretty quickly. Um it's gonna come out pretty quickly. This, I think this leans into another uh the to the next point, or one of the points, other points is understand what the company or the leader values. You need to understand what that is. So in um when I'm writing grants, um one of the things that people or or even uh writing grants, but even that that's a little more obvious than um talking to a donor, right? So uh especially if it's a new person that I don't know. Um what what do I know in the back of my head what I what I what I need. So two things I've done. I've assessed what they probably can give based on what I've done some research on, or based on what how other people have said, you know, if it's a if it's somebody somebody else is connected to and I'm aware that they give at this level over here, okay, cool. I know that they have this ability to give. But I have that in my mind. And so based on that, it's like, okay, cool. This is what we could, this is what we need. I know what I need, I understand I've assessed what they're able to give, but I never we never talk about that. That's not something that comes up in the conversation. When I'm first meeting somebody, my practice is to learn about what they care about.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Period. That's all I'm trying to do. Because if I can connect what they care about to what we do, then I'll be much more uh I'll be much more um capable of making the ask of what I need.

SPEAKER_03 17:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

Right? Because now your ask is connected to something to something that matters to them. And so when you're when you are looking into your next level of going, whether it's internal or external, the research game gotta be tight. You need to know what you need to know. And then you when you when you show up, the interest in what they care about oftentimes can come out in that interview. You may not be able to ask as many questions as you want, but you need to hear and listen to what they're saying. A lot of times you can hear and care what catch what they care about based on the questions they're asking you. And so now I can I can go into my questions and my follow-up conversation, not based on what I came in with and what I need, but based on digging in what they told me about them. So now I can connect. Now when I go when I go into negotiate, I'm negotiating based on what you what I heard from you, not based on what I want.

SPEAKER_03 18:29

That is good because a lot of times in negotiations, we spend a lot of time telling them about who we are, and not a lot of time emphasizing that I'm the solution to what you're looking for, right? Like that, like you have shown me that your priorities are X, Y, and Z. And this is why I fit your priorities, not just, I'm that girl and I have a I have a reputation of X, Y, and Z. And this is what I've done before, and I'm gonna do the same thing here. That may not be what they're looking for. Yep. And in our next episode, I really want to hone in on, or we're really gonna hone in on, you know, when you when you do get that role and you've negotiated that salary and you've done all the things, you're not gonna know exactly what you're doing at first. Right? Tune in to next episode, we're gonna talk about it. Right. Because there is a transition period where you realize all them promises. Yep. All them things I said, and I need to, I need to take a moment and figure it out. Right. And so you you have to realize that you are asking them to give you an opportunity to do something you've never done before. You are asking them for an opportunity to uh to engage in work at a level that you may not have engaged at before, right? And so you may be extremely capable. You may have all of the right things at the right time developed in just the right way to fit into that, to fit into that place um to really take the take that company to the next level. You may have all of that. If you cannot communicate it, if you cannot say it in a way that resonates, right, meeting like with meeting the need with a solution, right? Like this is supply and demand. Yep. Right? Like, like the job is demanding something for you that is more than what's written on the paper. And when Ruth Abigail talks about you got to do your research, research is about learning more about the context of how this role fits into the larger mission and vision of the institution. And and and realizing that you have to stay current, not just what what you heard or what you may have experienced if you are internal, but with what you are uh perceiving is next. Yeah. And you have to be a person that can speak to an organization's next and not just where they are right now. Because I'm telling you, I think that we're missing a lot of opportunities to move forward because we are stuck in the now. And companies are always thinking about how they can move forward because they got it's it's competitive. The marketplace is competitive. Whatever organization you're in, they have other organizations that they compete against. They have other uh entities that they may partner with, but somebody else is looking at that partnership saying, How can how can we get in on that? What you mean they got$10,000 for them? How do we get that$10,000? Yeah. Right? Like, like the marketplace is competitive, and you have to show them that I'm your edge.

Staying Ahead In An AI Economy

SPEAKER_00 21:53

And let's I I this might be a little bit of not a pivot, but just a specific. That we do need we're not experts in this, so we we're not gonna go super deep. But to your point about things are moving, things are moving faster now than they ever have. My Lord have got to be prepared for that. And so the the other the thing is, you know, we talk about AI and we we all I mean there's a million conversations out there, a million podcasts where experts are talking about it, go find those. This ain't that. But talk about middle adults, yeah. Yeah, but but I will say that um something that we do have to we have to unlearn some things that will prevent us from learning things like that.

SPEAKER_03 22:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Because those types of skills are what people look, I I know this is this is not again coming from where I'm coming from, my the the space, the the perspective I'm coming from. Human capital is going to be used very differently in the next five to ten years. And if you aren't prepared for that, then you will you're gonna be left behind. And that's just the truth. So if we if you you know, and and a lot of a lot of these, you know, what they said what we call have called traditionally white-collar jobs is are the ones that are gonna be those are the ones that are gonna be left behind because AI can't build a house. There's five no, they don't not yet, not for a long time. Seriously, yeah, like you still you still have time, but AI can do accounting, AI can do HR, AI can do, um, you know, they can do they can they can be on on Wall Street, they could do like AI can do that stuff. When it comes to that tech stuff, I can can be a a a software developer. Um, you know, those are those were once jobs that people like like fought over that now, just know those jobs, the ones that we like, the higher paying ones, the ones that even for some of us would be our next level potentially are going away. So what do you do when that happens? And one of the things you must do is you have to learn how to stay ahead of the game and understand where the game is and stay ahead of it and understand your value and and being able to leverage tools, not just be a tool. You aren't the tool anymore. You not the tool.

SPEAKER_03 24:24

Okay, Ruth with a word. Okay, you gotta leverage the tool, you not the tool. Okay, so I'm thinking really, really uh great cultural reference for this hidden figures.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

Ah, yes, love it, love it, love it. Absolutely. Uh who was it? Was it one of my favorite scenes? Yes, yeah, went to the library that you could learn how to well.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

First, she started noticing. Yes, she was like, wait a minute, what's this thing? What's this gonna do to our jobs? Oh, what's the level? And then she started, she's like, wait a minute, this is doing the computing. This is what that's the were the calculators, yeah, and now they're bringing it a calculator, they done they done made a calculator, and this thing can produce at a level that we don't produce at, right? And probably with a little less error, yep, right, and so we gotta figure out how to stay ahead of this game, and she was such a great leader, man. She was such a great leader because I'm gonna take my people with me. Come on, man. That's what when we talk about trust your leader, right? Because if I'm coming to you with a game plan, I might know, I might have more context than you have. But trust me, if if if if there was somebody in the room that said, no, I just wanna, I'm really good at calculating, and they know that I'm really good at calculating. So I'm just gonna sit here and I'm gonna keep calculating and you're not learning the game. It's so many people. It's so many people who ain't learning the game because you don't listen. And so when it comes time, so who are we gonna open up the door to? Who are we gonna open up the next opportunity to? It's gonna be the people who stayed current and not only stayed current, but the people who stayed ahead of the game. Yes, because the people who were building the computers and building the machines didn't even, they didn't know how to work it, they didn't know how to use it. She went the extra mile studying, getting ahead of it, researching it, really learning how, okay, this is where we're gonna fit into this next plan. And I promise you, as a leader, I do that all the time. I do that all the time. I'm like, hey y'all, this was about to happen. I uh we were uh in a previous role, we were going through a lot of leadership transition, right? And everybody was getting frantic because stuff was shifting, stuff was changing, and people were like, what they gonna do next? And we don't have what we need. I put my team to the side. I said, close the door. I said, Y'all see in here, let me, this this is how we're gonna do it. I don't know what everybody else is doing. I don't know how they're gonna navigate this, but the sky's not gonna fall out on us.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:13

Because this is how we're gonna navigate it. And as long as you stick with me, I'm gonna stick with you and we're gonna make it through, right? And so as I'm getting information and understanding what the new priorities are, I'm telling my team, this is the new game plan, right? This is how we make ourselves invaluable. We come up with a super engagement plan that I I'm not, I'm, I don't play games, right? And so when you are in that interview phase and you're in that, um, you're in that, you know, I'm one of two, one of three candidates that they're considering, right? They want the person that can keep the sky from falling out, right? They these organizations and companies know they're like, hey, listen, we we in a we in a different kind of space, right? We don't always understand or comprehend, you know, what everyone, what all is gonna change, right? I've been, you know, I work in higher ed. We we lose the provost, we'll lose the president, right? You know, leaders, leaders are shifting all the time, right? Who are the people that we can trust to keep the boat afloat? Right? Those are the people we're gonna promote. And you have to be able to communicate that in an interview. You know, one interview that I was in um a little while ago, I know exactly where I messed up. But I'm not mad that I messed up like this, but I know where I messed up. They asked me, you know, you get to that point where you can ask questions, right? I knew that we were in the midst of a great transition. Like it was, it was a lot of things happening. And I asked, what are your, what are you as department leaders prepared to protect about my or the organization I'm a part of? How are you prepared to protect and cover us as we go through this transition? And I think the answer really was, we're not. We're not, and we would want you to protect your team as we take y'all through the changes because we're not gonna do it. That's what the answer was. I didn't know that. I thought this was a great question because I had not really ascertained, I didn't put myself in the shoes of the leader. I did I didn't put myself in the shoes of they might be protecting their jobs. They they they might that they gotta go with a new plan too. They they gotta figure stuff out too. And they don't need, they don't, they don't need to feel like they gotta fight me to do that. Now the truth of the matter is it wasn't the best fit for me. It was it wasn't my uh my rare valuable thing was not gonna shine. Yeah. And I would have, and I would have gone into, they would have seen me in protective mode and and nobody, and and the people under me would have loved it, but the the organization would have been like, Yeah, why we do this? Right? But you gotta know that. Like, and and you have to know in as you are in the interview process, you have to be real with yourself and say, you know, like you asked the question earlier, do I just want this role because I want the money, I want the position, I want the title, or am I actually the right fit for this? Like as middle adults, we're at that stage where we need to be asking ourselves, am I the right fit for this? And is this the right fit for me?

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Yeah.

More Than Money: Fit And Wellness

SPEAKER_03 30:46

Because there's a lot more to negotiate besides money. That's it. Your wellness, your peace of mind, your lifestyle, your ability to uh to have a life outside of work, right? To not have to always take work home or to be able to manage that, your ability to feel like you're making an impact, to feel like what you're doing makes a difference and that you have the support that you need. There's a lot more to negotiate besides money.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

And on that point, there is a lot more to negotiate besides money. So one of the things that you've gotta be honest with about yourself is how important is money to you, really. Now, because here's the deal. If I'm going, this is just the truth. I ain't saying I function this way, I really don't function this way, but I do know that leaders think this way. If I'm gonna pay you a salary at the top end, I'm gonna expect top time. I'm gonna expect top time. That's just real. And you asked for the extra$5,000, didn't you? All right now. So it's like I need three more hours a day. Well, I mean, it's like, you know, I I I that's just I'm honestly, I'm just being honest. Like, that's how people think. And it's like, okay, cool. Like you, you, you're asking for this. And a lot of times in those higher level positions that have higher salaries, the time that you have to spend to do the um, to to manage the business that you're managing at that level isn't going to uh is not going to always uh allow for the other elements of your life to thrive. Because you have you've kind of traded in some ways in in some industries. I'm not saying for everything, but if the truth is you like, okay, time time, I'm trading my I'm trading my time for dollars. And that's that's a lot of times how that works. Uh even if you're not you you don't have to be hourly for that. Like you're trading your time for dollars. And and so I know that uh for me uh the money is not my highest value. I would, I will take less um as a salary if I can have more flexibility in my day-to-day. And so, and I've and I've said that to people, I've said that to supervisors before, because it is more important to me to be able to move and shake how I want to move and shake during during the day, during the week, than be stuck somewhere and making an extra 15, 20,000. And now that for some people, they're thinking like that's crazy, that's cool, that's okay for it to be crazy. But for me, that was good for me. And honestly, what ends up happening is I'm gonna eventually get that extra 15, 20,000 because I put myself in positions to be ready for that by being by being flexible enough to move and not be stuck. And that's how I thought about it. I'm going to get exposure to people, places, ideas, connections, all this stuff that will impact where I am, but also impact me down the road. And I won't have to, I it won't have to be hard for me to make a case for more down the line or more responsibility or more um influence. And that's but that's me. And you have to be in a position to do that. So I, you know, it now sometimes you just need more. I get that. It's like, hey, I'm we have a family, we gotta bring in more money, I gotta do this, and that is perfectly fine. But again, I think you have to understand who you are, what you really need, and don't just go in doing what everybody else tells you to do if it don't fit where you are right now in the season of your life you're in. Understand what's valuable to you. I I'm just that's just how we think. I let me let me add this other little thing on again. I try I try to help people with the game. If you ask for that top salary on your first year, don't expect too much more as you're there. You just need to know that. Yeah because especially if you don't add more value to that revenue stream. If that's not happening, that 3% cost of living, that's probably what you're gonna see. Like at your time here. Because you started, you said you wanted it all now before you proved anything.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

Yeah.

Salary Culture And Long Game

SPEAKER_00 35:26

So so that's okay. And sometimes that's fine. But I'm just the way you think, because you because leaders don't think for the next year, they think for the next five. So it's like, I gotta plan, I've planned out, kind of already know where we're gonna be or where I see us being in the next five years. This role will have a uh the question is, well, this, I mean, sometimes this role doesn't need to be existing. Sometimes this role is not gonna really grow as much. Um people you you hire, you don't, you don't plan. Uh I don't, I don't think wisdom says you don't plan for uh the person in the role, you plan for the role. And so a person can be great, but the role is worth this. And and so I I'm going to now if the person is great and the role's worth this, then I will hire a great person understanding that they won't always be in this role. I don't have that intention for them. And and so more money comes with a different role, but not this one, because this is what it is. And so that is where you as a you as a valuable player of the team, regardless of the kind of role you have, is what's so crucial because leaders are thinking, all right, I'm gonna bring this person in at this at this level. I know that they're not gonna be here forever, and I know they're not gonna stay here. I need to already have a plan for them to move somewhere else because I can't pay them more here because I've inflated the role, and the role doesn't actually, it's actually worth that much. It's not designed for somebody at that level. And so that's the kind of thinking people are doing. So you've gotta you've gotta know if I take that top role and eventually I want more money, then I better be a person that they want to bring up in some other role. Yeah. Uh okay. That's my that's my that's my perspective.

SPEAKER_03 37:17

I agree to some to some degrees. I think uh a couple of points. One, it is really, really important, especially when it comes to salary um and promotion, that you understand the culture of the organization that you are a part of. And I think in higher ed, what we all know is that whatever salary you come in at, you are going to have to work very, very hard later on down the line to get more because they will sit you right there for as long as they can, and you will have to show that you have moved heaven and the earth in order for them to say, we can consider giving you 7%, which depending on where you start it, might not be much, you know. And so I think as you for all of the people who might be in kind of, we'll call them like soft, easy, soft, uh not necessarily corporate, we'll call it soft corporate. I think that's where higher ed fits. It's not super corporate, but it's soft, soft corporate level, right? You have to ask yourself, am I, especially as a middle adult and as a person who is growing in leadership? So I'm assuming that you have had some sort of leadership exposure or leadership experience already, and your next role is at a higher level of leadership. You have to ask yourself, how am I gonna feel in this salary in a year? After I have given my best and I have gotten this organization some incredible outcomes, and I have built exactly what I said I was gonna build, and some. I have developed teams, I have grown this metric and that metric, and everybody loves me and everybody loves the work. How are you gonna feel at the end of that first year with what you settled with in the beginning? And I think for me, I am thinking about that moment because if it's the right role and you the right person, and you are you know that this is your time and your spot, and you know what you're about to go in and do, I personally don't want to have to go back to the drawing board after a year. I want to feel confident that I started because I'm not a newbie anymore. Now in my 20s, I was like, I'll take it. And I did. I took them roles, right? And even with a master's degree from very good institutions and you know, and all of that, I took those roles and I and I I tried to negotiate, and they kind of see you as you can try a baby, but all right, this is what you're gonna get. And I know you're gonna take it. And they were right, right. But as I'm growing in my leadership and my understanding, I've seen, I've seen me work. You know what I'm saying? I've seen what I do work, I've seen it get results, I've seen the outcomes of it, and not just the measurable outcomes, but I know that I can develop people, departments, and teams to really not, so it's not just me I'm bringing up. It's not just me that I'm saying I am gonna produce this. I'm saying I'm gonna produce departments and teams within your organizations to bring more revenue, income, outcomes, right? Like, and so I think at that level, you gotta be real with yourself. And again, I work for a state institution, salaries are public, and that's how a lot of a lot of salaries are negotiated because we say, uh, and a lot of times people within their salaries go and look and see what people, their peers, their peer colleagues are getting, and they're like, oh, so somebody played me. Okay, and we're gonna review this, and I need this to come up. All right. And so I think that there is room for that. You know, one of the things I hear a lot in higher ed is that in order to get a raise, you have to have an offer. So, you know, sometimes people in higher ed just go out and interview and get offers just so they can take it back to their home institution and say, hey, they said they're gonna pay me this, what y'all gonna do? And then that's when they're like, eh, yeah, actually we can. Actually, you could have from the beginning. And I think that's why it is important. I I'm too old. I don't want to go through all that. Let's let's let's let's get this right. Let's, you know, let's let's do something that's fair to both of us, and I can I can be mindful of where you are. But I need, and that's another thing, and I'm just sorry, these these are just present thoughts with me. But that's another thing. As my supervisor, I'm watching you. As my potential next supervisor, I'm I'm I am looking at how you are handling this moment because a lot of a lot of what that supervisor is having to do is to go to bat for you in the room and say, I really want to hire this person. They are the best fit for the role. I believe that they're gonna this, this, and that. I want them to have the top salary. How what's the most we can give? Okay, if I don't think that's enough, can we can we negotiate? You know, I need to know what you're doing in the back room. I I need I need to know when you bring me the deal that you are bringing me your best. Yeah, and even if I ask for more, I need to know that you fought for me. And so if you bring me something that's mid and we both know, yeah, you get what I'm saying? I'm gonna feel a way about that. But yeah, I you I have to trust you with with with with my with with my future salary negotiations. Well, but this won't be the last time, you know.

The Power To Walk Away

SPEAKER_00 43:30

In five years, I'm gonna be back. I think that's important. What you you said that like what you know, what we both know. And I think that's a that's a key element to this is like knowing who you are and showing up as that, understanding how it fits with what you're who you're talking to. Um, but being clear on the things that, again, going back to what we talked about earlier, the things that people care. About being clear about that. And here's the thing if you know that and you're confident in that and they don't meet you there, then they're not for you. And and at the end of the day, I think that's important. It's you you want to be in a position where you don't have to say yes to somebody. Like, I I okay, got it. I I'm I'm okay to walk away. Like, like they like the walk away position is like it's a powerful position. So I don't want to have to. There are certain um funding opportunities, large ones that I don't fool with because we are not we are not aligned. I'm not gonna be okay with what they want me to do if we get the money. Yeah, I'm not gonna do all that. I'm willing to walk away from something that could be lucrative, um, and because it doesn't match who I am and what the values are, and we we just don't connect. And so if you're into a situation where you're negotiating, you're saying this, you know this is what you deserve, this is what you need, it's what you brought to the table, and you even know that they see that. And there's no you there's there's enough evidence for you to know that they're not honoring that, even though they could. You want to be in a position to where you don't have to take it, and you can walk away. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:19

And that I have walked away before, and they came back and said, Well, actually, yeah, what we can do is it was a job. Uh, I was still in nonprofit world, and they were offering a job without health insurance. Oh, and I was like, Yeah, that's gonna be a free dog. And then they called me back and said, actually, we can offer you health insurance and some more money.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

Yep, yep. Huh. Yep. Look at that. Yep, you gotta know. Yeah, and I and and so just I think that's I think that's really critical um is don't don't be a slave to the salary. You don't don't do that. Don't be a slave to the offer. Understand who you are and walk away if you need to walk away. Um and go. Walk away.

Faith, Peace, And Unmerited Favor

SPEAKER_03 46:05

I I I'm gonna say this, because I understand. I think sometimes we can get a little, we can we can get a little stringent about these things, a little high and mighty. Okay. And I'm from a faith perspective, understand uh, because some roles are assignments, and you need you need to discuss with God what that is. For sure. And and if it is an assignment, I know and I know for a fact that God is gonna take care of me. And so there are some things that you can't walk away from, but you do have to trust God in the negotiating in the negotiation process that He will get you where you need to be. And it may not be immediately. Right. And and so I don't, I just, I just didn't want to leave.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

Well, see, y'all, see, I'm glad you see. I wasn't going, look, I thought we were being practical and just doing the thing. I no, no, no. I agree with you 100%. Quite frankly, I lean more in that direction than I do some other stuff I'm saying. Like if I'm just being real.

SPEAKER_03 47:14

Here's the thing. Here is the thing. Nothing we said has been untrue. No, I wouldn't stay saying and let me be clear.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

I stand by everything I said. Yeah, I yeah, I can't tell. You know, I stand by everything I said, but I do want to, I I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna echo what Queda said. Hey, look, there is all like if nothing is nothing is forever. So you don't have to, you don't have to worry about that. Um, God is going to handle what look, if you put yourself in a position to trust God more than you trust the offer, you will you will end up on the on the side of uh on the side of this that you want to end up on because there are going to be other things that you won't see that's not in that offer letter that's gonna benefit you in ways you could not have thought. Yeah, and and so I agree a hundred percent. Like, do not let that dictate whether or not you take something, but there is wisdom to be had and how and understanding and how people think and how people operate. That is what we're and so uh yeah, we we we stand on this a hundred percent with the caveat of God is ultimately the final saying in control of how this works if you allow it to be, and you have to have you have to have the faith to move forward in something, even though if it don't look best on paper.

SPEAKER_03 48:37

Um it may not look best on paper, but I also believe that the Lord can give you clarity about that. Of course. I think the biggest thing is you need to have peace. When you accept that job offer, you need to be at peace with what it is. And so if you if if your peace comes from, I got exactly what I wanted, and I know God is behind it and behind me, and and this is gonna be great, right? Or if your peace is God saying, hey, don't worry about it. I got it. Just you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna trust in me and we're gonna blow this thing out the ward and I'm gonna show you what I do, right? I I don't know what stage you at. I don't I don't know what the Lord is gonna do in your particular situation at this particular moment, but I do know that if it is yours and if it is what God wants you to have, he will give you peace and and he will give you insight into either what he's doing or what's happening behind the scenes or what's coming. You know, I I believe in the promises of God. I believe in God's goodness towards me. I believe that I have unmerited favor. Right? I bel I believe all of that. And so, but I also believe that where I am and who I am right now and everything that God has invested me does have a worth attached to it. And I'm not gonna let you play with that.

unknown 50:11

Yeah.

Negotiate How Work Fits Life

SPEAKER_03 50:11

I'm not, I'm, I'm, I'm not, I'm just not. I'm just not. You know, that I'm just not. I think also as we're talking about negotiation and how we are looking at this, realize that you are actually negotiating how this job will fit into your life, not how your life will fit into this job.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 50:33

And so you need to be thinking outside of just a paycheck, right? Like learn, you need to be learning more about the culture of the organization. You know, how do y'all feel about holidays? Are there blackout days? How do y'all feel about work from home? How do y'all feel about people leaving early or coming in a little late? Right? How do y'all feel about lunch breaks? Is everybody working through lunch? You know, I had uh one friend who worked with us in one office where we all used to take lunch together. We'd all be like, all right, guys, lunchtime, and we'd all be in one room cracking jokes, telling stories, and it was a whole thing. He got a new job, and at the new job, nobody ever ate lunch together, and they all worked through lunch. And that culture shift was very shocking to him. Also, they didn't enter, they didn't engage in a lot of interconnectedness. It wasn't like, hey, you know, how's the family? Talk to me about your life and everything going on. They were like, my door's closed. Like, what you doing? Don't come in here talking about that, right? And so that culture shift ended up being a huge deal for him, right? You need to know what are the things that are really important to me in a in a role. And some of those things you'll be able to build and influence, and some of those things you walking into. Yeah. And so as you're thinking about negotiations, all of that has to play a part in it.

Transparency Tells You The Truth

Closing: Like, Share, Subscribe

SPEAKER_00 52:00

Yep. It does. I love that. I I we're gonna be done. I just feel the need to say this one last thing. We're done, I promise. But I just want to see because I know producer joy over here looking like y'all over. Um, I you you want to the level of transparency of the leadership who is on the other side of the table from you is going to help you determine whether or not you're being played. Like, truly. Like, I mean, I think asking questions that are um that speak to transparency and like, you know, and I'm saying this because I I've I've had to do that. Like, um, there are people who I'm so grateful. My team, I have an amazing team. We don't, they deserve twice what they're getting. We don't have it, but they know we don't have it before I hire them. I never let them come into it and say, like, I don't pump that up. I'm like, honest, I can't pay you what you're worth. I want to, but this not I we we we don't have it. Um and but I I this is what we can give. This is what it is, this is what so I'm not you don't have to ask me that, I'm gonna give it to you. Um, and so because I because I'm aware of what somebody's gonna be thinking. I'm not naive. It's like, hey, I understand the salary is not great, but here's what we're gonna try to do. Not only that, here's where we're going, here's what we're trying, here's what the plans are. Um, and so the transparency that I try to have, I'm not perfect at it, but I try to have in conversations when we're hiring people. It's like I'm gonna, and then I'm I'm gonna do, especially if I believe in you. Hey, we're gonna give you everything we got. Um that we're gonna give you as much as we can money-wise, we're gonna give you everything we got in some other areas, and we want to prepare you to be your best for the next place you're gonna go. Because I'm also not gonna try to hold you here. Um and so letting people know that on the front end, you want transparency with people. They you people you want you want to feel that so that you don't feel like you're getting um taken advantage of uh in that, right? Um, okay, so that's it. We're done. Yeah, like, share, subscribe, folks. Like, share, subscribe. Hope this was helpful. Um, we're gonna see y'all next week. Until then, let's keep unlearning together so we can experience more freedom. Thank you once again for listening to the Unlearned Podcast. We would love to hear your comments and your feedback about the episode. Feel free to follow us on Facebook and Instagram and to let us know what you think. We're looking forward to the next time when we are able to unlearn together to move forward towards freedom. See you then.