A Revealing Conversation

Too often, Revelation has been read like a doomsday countdown—filled with beasts, bowls of wrath, and judgment reserved for those who fail a purity test. It’s been used to frighten. But Revelation isn’t a horror story—it’s not a roadmap for the end of the world, but a dream, a protest for a persecuted people:  refuse to give in to despair.  An invitation to be free from fear.  A story of hope.

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Transcript

Sermons from 

Mission Hills UCC

San Diego, California

Rev. Dr. David Bahr

david.bahr@missionhillsucc.org

May 11, 2025

“A Revealing Conversation”

The Book of Revelation – note, it’s not the Book of Revelations – The Book of Revelation is something that many of us – myself included – have avoided, feared, and misunderstood.  Too often, Revelation has been read like a doomsday countdown—filled with beasts, bowls of wrath, and judgment reserved for those who fail a purity test. It’s been used to frighten. But Revelation isn’t a horror story—it’s not a roadmap for the end of the world, but a dream, a protest for a persecuted people:  refuse to give in to despair.  An invitation to be free from fear.  A story of hope.

John, the seer of Patmos, was writing to early Christians living under the boot of the Roman Empire.  The Empire said, “Worship Caesar. Accept your place. Don’t resist.” But John saw a different vision:  not a tyrant on the throne but a Lamb. Instead of walls and borders, a city with open gates, a river of life flowing through a healed creation.

Revelation is not a secret code.  It’s the testimony of people who were incarcerated, exiled, enslaved, and poor—and yet… they still believed that God was coming to dwell among them, not to destroy the world.  To renew the world, not condemn it.

It speaks to this very time we are living in today – destruction every day of a planet whose climate is collapsing, tyrants on the rise, the silencing of opposition, the denial of racism by erasing history — Revelation dares to imagine this domination will not win. The Lamb—gentle, wounded, and just—is at the center of heaven.

The vision ends with a city. A community. A place where all nations bring their glory. A place where the Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.”  Not to the righteous few, but to everyone who thirsts.

Today, we’ll hear a conversation about what Revelation means between an evangelical who grew up fearing the beast, a progressive liberation theologian who sees resistance in every symbol, and a Black preacher who knows the beast by name and still walks toward healing.

Let their voices open your heart. Let the Scripture speak beyond fear. Let Revelation reveal:

That no matter how deep the empire’s shadow,
 there is a brighter light.
 A deeper justice.
 A river of life that flows even here, even now.

Narrator: 

From chapter 1, verses 1-3

“The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave… to show what must soon take place… Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and keep what is written in it.”

Evangelical:
I’ve always loved Revelation.
It gives us a clear picture of the end—tribulation, the Antichrist, the Rapture.
It helps me stay focused, stay ready, stay pure.

Progressive:
It’s powerful, but it’s not a play-by-play of the end.
I read it as a vision of hope from people crushed by empire.
It’s resistance literature—a cry that Caesar does not have the final word.

Preacher:
And for Black men and women —
whose ancestors toiled under lashes and laws,
who still carry the weight of both racism and patriarchy—
Revelation is fire and balm.
It calls out the beast of white supremacy, and still sings of a river that heals us all.

Narrator: 

In Revelation chapter 13
“And I saw a beast rising out of the sea… The dragon gave the beast power and authority.”

Evangelical:
Wait—so the beast isn’t just about some evil ruler in the future?

Progressive:
No—it was Rome back then.
And now? It might be any empire—economic, political, or religious—that demands worship and crushes the vulnerable.

Preacher:
The beast wears many disguises:
Plantation. Prison. Even the pulpit.
Systems that claim holiness but thrive on domination.

Narrator: 

In Revelation chapter 5
“Then I saw… a Lamb, standing as if it had been slain… He is worthy to open the scroll.”

Evangelical:
But I thought Jesus returns in glory—with fire and judgment?

Progressive:
Christ does return in glory. But look at the center of the throne.
Not a warlord. A Lamb. Wounded but standing.
This is divine power turned upside down—nonviolence as victory.

Preacher:
That slain Lamb knows our pain.
Knows what it means to be beaten by empire, silenced by religion, and still rise.
And I’m telling you now—every Black mother who still sings, every trans sister who still breathes, every child caged by policy—they are the body of that Lamb.

Narrator: 

From Revelation chapter 7

“A great multitude… from every nation, tribe, people, and language… crying out, ‘Salvation belongs to our God and to the Lamb!’”

Evangelical:
So this isn’t about escaping the world… but transforming it?

Progressive:
Yes.
The New Jerusalem comes down.
God doesn’t evacuate us. God dwells with us.

Preacher:
Right here in our skin.
Right here in our streets.
If the city of God has open gates, then we better make room at the table now—those who are unhoused, or queer, or incarcerated, single mothers, anyone who has felt the pain of being exiled.

Narrator:
From Revelation chapter 21

“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth… ‘See, the home of God is among mortals. God will dwell with them; they will be their people.’”

Evangelical:
I used to read Revelation with fear.
Now it sounds like it could actually be Good News.

Progressive:
For the poor, the exiled, the earth itself—yes.
It’s not a warning to escape, but a call to resist and rebuild.

Preacher:
It’s Harriet Tubman’s vision in a burning world, It’s Fannie Lou Hamer’s prayer, and it’s your abuela’s song.
It says: Even now, we rise.

Narrator: 

From Revelation chapter 22
“Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life… and on either side of the river was the tree of life… and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.”

Evangelical:
Healing… not destruction.  Freedom… not fear

Preacher:
Yes.  A river for the dry bones.
A tree for every wounded people.
And a Lamb who leads us—not with wrath, but with wonder.

Narrator: 

From Revelation chapter 22
“The Spirit and the Bride say, ‘Come.’ Let everyone who hears say, ‘Come.’
 Let everyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who wishes take the water of life freely.”