She's Brave Podcast - Kristina Driscoll

UNPACKING WOMEN’S IMPACT ON THE FILM INDUSTRY with Directors, Alexandra Clayton and Michal Sinnott

November 07, 2023 Kristina Driscoll with Michal Sinnot and Alexander Clayton Episode 59
She's Brave Podcast - Kristina Driscoll
UNPACKING WOMEN’S IMPACT ON THE FILM INDUSTRY with Directors, Alexandra Clayton and Michal Sinnott
Show Notes Transcript

Welcome to the dynamic team of Alexandra Clayton and Michal Sinnott as Kristina traverses their world as women filmmakers. Currently, touring the indie film festival circuit with their first feature film, Unpacking, which is garnering award after award, they jump into what it’s like being part of the 14% of female filmmakers in the world. Not only have they had to navigate Hollywood as an uphill battle being such a small minority on a macro level, they’ve also had to bravely push beyond fear to achieve their dreams on a micro level. Listening to their story, you’ll find yourself inspired by them and cheering them on. Keep going, ladies, keep going!

In this episode, you will be able to:

  • Follow your dreams, no matter what
  • Understand what fear actually is: the sign to push through
  • Appreciate just how important and impactful women’s voices are
  • Recognize how indispensable supporting one another is and what a large part it plays in effecting change
  • Realize what you can do when you push through your own fear
  • Acknowledge that, at times, patience is required for growth
  • See that equality is at the center of, not only the healthy workplace, but also of a healthy society
  • Accept that “...bravery is not about not being afraid. It’s about being afraid and doing it anyway!” - Alexandra Clayton

About Michal and Alexandra:

Michal Sinnott is best known as the voice, likeness and performance capture artist for Tracey De Santa, one of the main characters  in the  billion dollar game, Grand Theft Auto V.  Michal Sinnott is an award winning, classically trained actor/writer/director whose work in film, television, theatre, audio spaces, & games traverses mediums, genres, & locales. Her first narrative feature, 'Unpacking,’ as a co/writer-director-producer is currently winning awards on the festival circuit. ‘Unpacking’ recently screened at Cinequest VR & Film Festival for their Bay Area premier. She’s appeared in dozens of plays and 50+ principal roles for radio, television and film on ABC, Sundance and The Whitney Museum of American Art and more. Her stage plays have received staged readings and awards in Virginia (Theater Virginia) and Los Angeles (The Blank Theatre). She's in development on a variety of projects as a writer-director. 

Alexandra Clayton is a writer/director whose work leans into the earnest and awkward experience of being human. Her first narrative feature, 'Unpacking’ as a co/writer-director-producer is winning awards on the 2023 festival circuit and garnering praise for its excellent ensemble acting. Filmed in Bali over 13 days on a micro budget, 'Unpacking' explores the hypocrisies of wellness tourism and the power of vulnerability. She’s directed/written/produced narrative shorts, web series, branded and documentary content for 10 years and will shoot 3 short films in 2024. Outside of her own projects she enjoys creative producing for early career directors.  She's acted in films that have screened at over 30 festivals including Karlovy Vary, NYC’s Rooftop Films, and SF’s Cinema by the Bay, and streamed on Amazon and Kinoscope. A grounded optimist who thrives in the creation of original work, Alexandra believes the stories we tell create the culture we live in. 

Unpackingmovie on IG
instangram.com/xanclayton/
instagram.com/michalsinnott/




Connect with Kristina:
Instagram
Facebook
Join our Podcasters Facebook Group
Website

Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating here: https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1660488233

Kristina:

Hey everyone, it's Christina Driscoll host of this she's brave Podcast. I'm so glad you're here with me. I did not start out brave at all. But I learned that we can do brave things, one small step at a time. After caregiving for my husband and son for 12 years, it was definitely time for my next chapter. I wanted to get brave women's voices out there in the world. And more importantly, I want all of you to have the courage and the resilience to live your best authentic life. So come along with me and learn how to live your best life. And I want you to hear the brave voices of women all around the world. Hey, everyone, it's Christina with the she's brave Podcast. I'm super excited for today's guests. We'll get to that in a minute. But my guests today are McCall Senate and Alexandra Clayton to passionate filmmakers who are taking the indie film scene by storm. They turned a micro budget dream into reality, and wrote acted and directed the film, unpacking. Here's a little bit more about our guests. Welcome. Welcome, you guys. Hello. Thanks

Unknown:

for Thanks, Christina.

Kristina:

Yeah, we've already got a great vibe going so McCall senate is best known as the voice likeness and performance capture artists for Tracy to Santa's the lead crime boss's daughter in the billion dollar video game Grand Theft Auto Five. She's also an award winning classically trained storyteller who's worked in film, television, theatre, audio spaces and games, traverses mediums, job honors and locales. Alexandra Clayton is a writer and director whose work leans into the quote, earnest and awkward experience of being human. I love that her first narrative feature the film, unpacking as a co writer and director and producer is currently picking up awards on the 2003 festival circuit. And garnering praise for its excellent ensemble acting. The movie was filmed in Bali over 13 days and explores the hypocrisy of wellness, tourism and the power of vulnerability. She's currently getting ready to also do three short films. Wow, you girls, I have to tell let's share with the audience that I'm cutting your intro short, because there's so much more to you that you guys have done, but I decided to highlight those things and why you guys listeners why I'm so excited to have these two amazing women on the show is that I distinctly remember a moment in 2003 when I was watching the Oscars, and Francis Ford Coppola's daughter, Sophia Coppola received the Academy Award for best original screenplay for the movie lost in translation. But she was also nominated for Best Director and I remember what went through my head was, Wow, I had never even heard of a female director before that time. And it got me thinking about the impact in the world of film and TV, and how it's really, from a male perspective, if we don't have female directors, we're really showing the world more from a male perspective. And then you guys, I googled that the latest statistic in 2022 14.6% of all directors are female, just 14.6 we have a long way to go, ladies. So that's why I was so excited to have you here today.

Unknown:

Yes, yeah, I have a long way to go. It's it's wild how slowly that needle is moving when there are so many talented and capable women ready to help projects and shift this narrative in our culture.

Kristina:

Why do you think that is telling because

Unknown:

so many men are still gatekeepers? Honestly, yeah. What we're used to is stories from the male perspective. And you get people sort of taking on younger versions of themselves to give the opportunity to them, because I will say the box office shows again and again, when women get the opportunity, like look at Barbie this summer. Yeah. When women get the opportunity. The audience is there. It's just laced Do so infrequently get the opportunity.

Kristina:

Yeah, right, right. And that's why I wanted to have you guys on my podcast because I absolutely loved your movie. Or for you. I don't know what the correct term is. There's five.

Unknown:

But yes, I'll be it as a film. It's just

Kristina:

Yeah, yeah. And it really resonated with me. You know, because you guys are females, you guys created it, and you directed it, and you even started it, you were actors in it. And I could completely relate with the whole topic. And what I really liked was that I don't want to give stuff away for the listeners. But I feel like when you watch the whole thing, at the very end, it's just really, really, really powerful. It kind of ties in the whole theme of what's going on. And it's such a beautiful concept. And it's just such an interesting combination of the benefits of wellness retreats, but also some of this being taken advantage of as well. Have you guys even come up with this topic? Well, the story that we told was dictated by the variables that we had to work with. So Alexandra, and I decided to work on a project together. And in order to get it off the ground. And to finance it quickly, we

Unknown:

actually reached out to a number of friends and colleagues and propose this working vacation where we would go and make a film. And we asked everyone that we wrote what role they wanted to place like, do they want to be in it? Do they want to be behind the camera? What did they want to do in order to do this, and so the only people that signed on to be actors were white women. And we knew we were going to Bali, I mean, we wrote into a very diverse group, that's who, you know, came up and said, I want to play this role. And because of the unique way in which we made it, where we weren't financing it ourselves, we're financing it, at least on a production level, as a collective, this is what rose up. And so we wrote for the actors that signed on. And when we looked at it, it made all the sense in the world to make it a wellness retreat, because that's who goes on wellness retreats, for better or worse, it's white women. And so therefore, we also wanted to spotlight both the good things about that, but also the problematic things about that, like the inequities within it. And so there's a quality of that, underneath all of this, you know, it's not just one thing it is that these women all do grow. But there's also problematic things about the process. There's problematic things about wellness retreats in general, even though they do help people grow and move forward. And that's life, right? Like life is never one thing. It's complicated, and it's real. And so we wanted to really look at the reality of it. And so that is why we wrote this particular story.

Kristina:

Yeah. And that was one of the things that I loved as well is that you two played sisters in the movie. And there was competition between you as sisters, there was competition general, sort of the underlying low current of competition between women. And that's one of the things that my podcast theme is about. And podcasting in general is an incredibly collaborative type of work. If you don't have collaboration, you don't have anything, it's all about collaboration. And what I've really been thinking about lately is how as women, we tend to be very competitive. And if we don't learn how to collaborate together, instead of compete, we're never going to gain equality. And I really liked that about your film, because that was one of the things was competition between women, you know, whether it be like out in the open or even kind of behind the scenes,

Unknown:

right? That's so true. And speaking to your early comment about like the 14% of women in the industry, are like in these directing positions. First off, we are not women like this in our own lives, we really have a wide network of very deep female friendships that give our life incredible meaning and so much support. And that's something we wanted to highlight in the film too, is this like desire to get vulnerable, and to be real, and that we don't always have the tools in society to take us there. But we met in this female directing collaborative that was formed off that basis that was like, it is not a competition between us. There is room for all of us to be making our way in this industry. And there is need for all of us and it's going to be so much easier for us to do that. If we share Be sources and support each other. So the format of those meetings for years where we were both sort of getting our legs was resource sharing and encouragement and I don't have a sound person, I can rely on her, I'm looking for an actor of this type or stand a script breakdown better, everyone would sort of get a share or an ask if the meeting, and then the whole group would get a chance to respond and support them. And we both feel so fortunate to have entered the filmmaking world and community through the lens of very inclusive supportive groups of women. Right, and that was just so much better when it's not a competition.

Kristina:

That's totally and that was really one of the messages was that we are so much happier and healthier. When we break down those barriers, we become more vulnerable with each other. It's never a competition, it's just nothing in life, there's room for all of us, there's always room for all of us to be 100%. ourselves, I really want to unpack this concept of you guys pushing yourself out of your comfort zones to do this project. Because I know there was a lot behind it. And my podcast is all about how did you get the bravery to do what you did. So let's hear more about how this all came to be. Because I know part of it was through COVID, which is another topic we I want to ask about resiliency, about getting through that. But let's start with the concept of getting out of your comfort zone and actually doing this doing this. I have

Unknown:

a small comment on this, and then I'll let McCall take over. But for me a key foundation because there were so many different points where we sort of had to push out of zones we had never done. And I had directed but I had never co directed I had never taken on a feature and a huge reason why the film is where it's at now. And why we're at where we are now is that we really did it as a partnership. And it has just been so invaluable to have somebody else to cheer each other on. Like when one person's overwhelmed, the other one pushes forward. And really having somebody equally invested in all of the details and all of the growth, who really doesn't want to let it go until it can be the very best thing. It can be a really lonely pursuit at times. And I just cannot recommend trying to find some sort of longer term creative collaborator, when you're taking on a project of this size.

Kristina:

You know what, Alexandra, I absolutely love that answer. And we see it in podcasting, too. You know, and it's such a great solution, you really want to do something, why not partner up with another woman. I think that's just so beautiful. And I know, because I've listened to you guys being interviewed, and that you guys were really good friends. And so if that helped to, to work with your friend, but it's

Unknown:

also interesting, because our friendship really grew as a result of this shared project. I mean, we were friends and we didn't know each other before this, but we were largely colleagues before this. I mean, we we definitely were friends, but we certainly did not know each other on the level that we become family, it's really traversed. You know, I think like your closest friends really become family. And you know, that person is going to be in your life forever. And it's the family you choose. And I feel like that's what Alexandria has become. For me, you know, she is someone that I always want in my life, you know, regardless of what we're working on, like, I just have grown so much as a result of working with her and also working on a project. I mean, it has been such a good mirror for all my own things I need to work on, you know, because it's a massive undertaking to make a movie, you were talking about why are the numbers so low when you know, we're 51% of the population, we literally exceed the population of the male gender, and yet we're, you know, are in this low percentage, I think it also has to do with you know, our world is built on this capitalistic patriarchal society, right. And it is like this sort of singular focus of I am in the top of this of the mountain and everything gets, you know, filtered down in terms of decision. And that mindset, and when you speak about female centric stories often do or the female centric mind is sort of collaborative, and, you know, is like ringing in the fold of others. And it's not just one Pinnacle idea that gets filtered down. It's even in. I mean, if we want to talk gender theory, it's even in like our orgasms, you know, like men have this st shoot, and we are waves and it's layered, and it comes upon itself, you know, and it like, has resonance. And so I think that it's a totally different way of telling stories and it's a totally different way of thinking and one is not better than the other but there is one way that has been said this is how it is. And, you know, we have a whole history behind us of why that is. And it's like a giant paradigm shift that has to happen for there to be equality with the sexes, especially when it comes to storytelling. And what that means for what we will learn as a result of having equity in storytelling with the people will learn as a result of that.

Kristina:

Exactly, exactly. It's not like we want to be better than men. You know, it's not like we don't love men, you know? Clearly we love Yeah, and we bring a new angle, and all the angles are beautiful, you know? Yeah, yeah. And these things take time. I mean, it's a cultural shift. And that's why I think it's so low to is that we're still going through a lot of cultural shifts. Yeah, as females. And so you know, that's, that's part of it as well. I want to unpack some of the hardest parts, and most gutsy things that you did in your journey in creating this film. So

Unknown:

we've made this movie. And we've never produced on this scale before either of us. And there sort of comes a point where like, the movies done, and we need to get it out in the world. And we don't have any famous actors attached to this movie, we don't have any famous actors or producers in our personal social circles. And it is a tough industry to break into. And there are these film markets that take place around the world, one of the biggest ones is in conjunction with the Cannes Film Festival. It's this big marchais going on. Underneath it were all these movies are bought across the world for distribution. And McCall had been to it before and knew about it. And we sort of knew like, well, we don't have the money to hire PR, we don't have this team. So we need to be our own team and try to sell the movie ourselves, directors. So we packed up some stylish outfits and made a packet of our film and spent 10 days of this market together. And I will say we like get into the market. And it's just like booth after booth after booth. And I'm like, had I done it on my own. I can be very gregarious and very outgoing. But I can also initially often be an observer, and a little more introverted than McCall and McCall, by this point, too, had survived two bouts with cancer and very much has a like, effort. I'm going all in what do I have to lose? So again, she's drives up to the booth and is like, Hi. Are you looking to buy movies, because we have a wonderful movie that we're looking to sell. And so many people were just sort of gobsmacked because it's so rare that you have directors their themselves selling the movie when it's already done. And something we learned in this process too, is those deals are often made ahead of time before the movie is done. So we were just in oddity, but sort of having won the bravery to relentlessly go up to booth after booth and pitch ourselves got us at least five meetings a day sort of on the spot, because people will be like, Wow, this is unusual. And we don't really know what to do with you and like, Okay, we'll sit down and listen to you. So it really required so much bravery. And I was so grateful to McAllen by maybe like day three, I had found some sort of stride to use my own voice and initiate the conversation more.

Kristina:

I love that so much. Because I started out the same way in podcasting. Oh, mg, like, I'm super scared to even ask someone to practice to interview with me. And I can relate to that where you were feeling like I have to just go up to these people and pitch myself. And that was going to be one of my questions that you just answered, which was, by the third day, you were feeling more comfortable. So you just sort of ease yourself into it. And it gets easier and easier. And you literally transform yourself, because day one was not the same person as day three. By day three, you were like, I'm okay with going up and pitching my film. I'm okay with it. I mean, that's beautiful. You know that you? You gained a huge amount of courage. You did,

Unknown:

I really did. I really did. And I got to throw in by like, day six, we had to pretty much hit every booth at the marchais. And McCall was like let's move on to the hotels. And then we're just cruising hotel floors with closed doors. And I was like we're not allowed to be here was like what do we have to lose?

Kristina:

I have also learned the power of human connection, which I know you too learned during that time as well. There's nothing like connecting with people. And when they feel that connection, they're just so much more likely to say yes,

Unknown:

yeah, exactly. The vast majority of jobs I have gotten in my life have been from knocking on the door from showing up. They have not been from sending a To resume like, when you're just a piece of paper, why have someone compelled to give you a chance, but if you're right in front of them, and they can see your passion, and they can see what you have to offer, they're so much more likely to say yes. Or maybe or at least let you pitch yourself. And if you do it map, see that's okay. Like everyone's scared. And I think that bravery is not about not being afraid. It's about being afraid and doing it anyway. Because you know, it's the right thing to do.

Kristina:

Yeah, I interviewed a woman who is one of the top recruiters in New York City. And I asked her well, what about when people say no, like, how do you handle that? She's like, No, doesn't mean forever. No means no, right now, but maybe later. And I was like, I love that answer. And it's true. And it's even true for me. Like, I've gotten so busy that I have people reaching out to me, they're trying to get a guest or themselves on my podcast. And sometimes I'm just too busy to answer. And then they reach out again, you know, or maybe the third time, and I finally look at their stuff and go, yeah, maybe that would be a good fit, you know? So I've learned that too. No, doesn't always mean No, permanently. Let's, let's talk about resiliency, and grit. So tell us more about the whole process, because COVID was involved in this as well tell us about when you started filming, and when COVID hit and how did that all feel? And how did you guys get through that. So

Unknown:

we filmed in June 2019. And I don't like to tell this part of Michael's story. But McCall also had been diagnosed with cancer right before and when we came back went right into surgery. This is all just to say like, because this was such an indie movie, we did not have a big team, it was really like her and I shepherding this along the way, for a long time. So our post production just took a lot of pauses, because life was happening. And we were the team to carry it forward. So whether it was for health, or I took some jobs that took me away on other films for months, and we had many pauses. But we really had to like stick to the long term vision. Yeah, COVID also brought McCall back to New York to live we'd been living in Los Angeles together, we sort of had a month and a half working with our editor together out here. And then we worked remotely on all of the rest of post and the rest of our collaborators. And it would be getting whatever draft whether it was for the edit or for music, or for color or for graphic effects. And then her and I both taking the time on our own to watch it a few times make really clear notes, then coming together, and combining our notes and making sure we were really on the same page, and then having to like send our notes. And it's such a collaborative art form, that I just do not recommend working this way. It just was so much less than ideal. Just like being in person, you can move so much faster. Because there's no room for miscommunication over like, what does slow mean to you? Or what does warmer skin tone mean to you. And when you're in the room, you could make those developments in real time. And you can maybe try out four options in five minutes, instead of four options over the course of four email exchanges that actually take 12 email exchanges, that actually makes it like 25 days. So we stayed committed, but I will say, I cannot wait to get to work in person in all of these parts of the process on our next Yeah,

Kristina:

no, and it's such a powerful point, collaboration is so much better in person, I love that I absolutely love that. I think it's a great reminder, because we're in this zoom world now, you know, and people think it's not that big of a deal to meet in person. But it really, really is. And it's such a beautiful story of you making this film because it took a number of years. And that's beautiful, too, because you were able to work at your own pace. I think in today's world, a lot of people start something, and the minute something goes wrong, they just are like, Oh, I guess it's just not meant to be I'm just I'm not going to do this and work at your own pace. And that might be a lot slower. And we're so big women were so big into comparing ourselves, you know, not compare ourselves to what other people are doing and how fast they're moving. They took you guys several years to get this film out. And that's a beautiful story right there.

Unknown:

Yeah, and I mean, I don't think anything really meaningful or important happens like super quick. You know me you can have a really a meaningful exchange with someone in the moment but it comes off of the lifetime of being those two people that are meeting and all things that happened before it, you know, so yeah, making a move. He has an enormous project. And it's even in the best of circumstances, when you're greenlit and you have all the money in the world. It doesn't happen super quick. It's just there's so many little details that go into it. And yes, because this was nd film, and we were riffing on different coasts, and we went through a pandemic, and I went through cancer twice, like it did, there were so many variables that made it a long road. But I also think it likely made it a better film, because it had time to breathe, and we had time to, you know, show it to friends and colleagues and get notes and think about it and break it open and restructure it. We we made it very quickly, we shot it very quickly. And then we had to look at it and piece it back together to figure out how to tell the story because we didn't do it quickly. So it's like that whole fast, cheap, good equation like pick two, you know? So it's just the nature of it,

Kristina:

you know? Yeah. Such a beautiful story. I just wish I could just give you both huge hugs for doing this movie. I loving the movie. And I love what you're doing in the world. You're such beautiful examples for women, all over the world. I always like to say to there's no mistakes and no failures along the road

Unknown:

to success. Right? Yeah, I think one of my biggest lessons in this process has been patience. Because there were certainly points we got to where I was like, I want to be done with the space, I just want it to be done. And I'm ready. And that's just not how it was working out. And I think there, there was so much in this journey that was like cool. I can not rush this the way this is set up. I cannot rush it. And I need to be at peace with the fact that it's going to be what it's going to be and and I heard this process that was a pretty slow process. But I think I honestly really resisted that for a good year or two. Before I was like, Okay, it's taking its time, and it is what it is. And I also want to like, learn to love the process, which is this and like, this is my life. And this is the journey. And right now this week, it's learning how to collaborate with a composer and give notes and in a new way and hear things in a new way. And we're working on a new trailer, we have a trailer and you've seen it like our trailer, but we feel like it's not the best, quite the right tone or genre to really fully tell the story in two minutes. And so we're working on our new pitch. And so yeah, that means new music. And it's a whole new vibe. So that's going to

Kristina:

Yeah, it's so beautiful in the creative space that there are no rules. Like I always love to say that too. I'm teaching my first podcasting class. And oh, I've said, I've said to everybody, it's there are no rules in podcasting, you get to change your mind. I recently changed my trailer to Oh, my intro. You know, I did it messy. It wasn't that great, you know, and then I was like, it's time to redo it. So you know, this one's better, I think than the last one.

Unknown:

Yeah, I'll be heading a year of audience now. We've been screening on the festival circuit since October. So we're coming up on a year. And we've had time to like hear feedback from audience hear back what people do like about the film, what is resonating with them, look at other examples of films that may be split in the same head, you know, space as our film, like, the whole marketing aspect of a film is a whole other thing that we've been learning this year. And so it's taken a minute to figure out what exactly that that vibe is. And so yeah, we're really excited about our new trailer. And I think it's going to really help us sell it and ultimately get it on, you know, get it out there so that anyone can stream it.

Kristina:

Yeah, I feel like whenever we take on a creative project, whether in my case, it's podcasting, in your case, it was creating this movie and all the creative work you do. It's basically therapy on steroids, like all the life lessons that you learn, right? Yeah, percent.

Unknown:

Absolutely. I mean, I think that that's the way that I don't know how other people grow. But I've certainly grown largely from work and relationships related to where I am like you hit a wall and things aren't working. And I either have to look at myself and I have to look at the situation and I have to figure out where to adjust and where to bend or maybe where to push forward more or lean back and like let someone else take the hell or whatever those things are where to find the balance to make it smooth and work and have ease and slow, right?

Kristina:

Mm hmm. Okay with that, my listeners are all going to want to get in touch with you and they're gonna want to support you. So let us know how We can find you,

Unknown:

people can go to unpacking the movie.com. And they can find out what festivals we have coming up. There are some festivals on the circuit right now where people could go and see the film in person. Okay, unpacking movie on Instagram is also honestly probably the best because in that bio link, you can link directly to every festival. We're going to be in New Hampshire, Philadelphia, Massachusetts, Virginia this month. Okay, we're at a screening in Vienna this weekend. Yeah, we're really on a really good roll right now. But we do really hope that the movie gets out there. So you can either follow us personally, I'm at Zan, cleeton xa en Clayton and McCall, Senate, am I ch AE l s i n n o t t, and unpacking movie on Instagram. And that is where we put out the most regular updates. And I mean, that is going to be the first place as soon as the movie has distribution. And it's finding its way out into the world. We're going to be blowing up our feeds with watch now stream here. And in the meantime, some of the festivals we are a part of do offer like bits of online streaming. So if you're following us on there, too, you can catch these little windows in the coming weeks and months where it will be available online.

Kristina:

Nice. Thank you so much, Alexandra and McCall, for coming on my podcast today. It's just been so joyful. And it's so uplifting and it's so hopeful, you know just what you're doing for women in the world. I love it so much.

Unknown:

Thanks so much, Christina. Thank you for having us and for doing what you do. Yeah. Thank you so much a beautiful conversation.

Kristina:

Hey, everyone, thanks so much for taking time out of your busy life to listen to today's episode. I love learning about what makes you brave. I'm here with you. I see you. I hear you and I want to hear from you. I want to know how you're showing up as being brave and authentic. Connect with me on Instagram at she's brave podcast, or come join our community in the she's brave podcast Facebook group. I'm sending you so much love. Until next time. Keep being brave.