Leadership Is Ownership

How crucial is effective leadership and ownership in the fire service? Join us as we sit down with Eric to share our personal experiences and observations about the evolution of leadership in the fire service. We discuss the impact of leading by example on department culture and reveal how the fire service has shifted focus to critical issues like cardiac health, cancer, and mental health that were once considered taboo.

In this conversation, we also explore the importance of support from the chief to the company officer level for the overall success of the department. Eric shares valuable insights on valuing mental health, being aware of our words and actions, and recognizing individual issues within the fire service. We reflect on the idea of one bad apple and how it can affect the organization as a whole, emphasizing the need for leaders to take ownership of the realities of the fire service.

As we wrap up, we discuss our plans for the podcast going forward and our goal of reaching 100 listeners. Networking and connecting with people in the fire service is essential to help us grow and share our ideas. So, if you're passionate about leadership, ownership, and the fire service, don't miss this engaging conversation. And don't forget to get in touch with us to share your thoughts and experiences!

I appreciate you taking out time to listen.  We can only do this with your support.  Please subscribe, leave us a like and good review.  Also if you are able a small donation will go a long way on keeping quality content and bad dad jokes coming to you.  Visit allclearpodcast.com to learn more.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

Welcome to All Clear, the Firefighter Health and Wellness podcast. This is season one, episode five Leadership is ownership. I am joined today by my good friend, eric. How are you doing Good? how are you? Oh man, i'm doing awesome. It's good to see you again. You too, alrighty. so let's see.

Speaker 1: 0:29

before we lead into this, i've been watching the data metrics I think that's the fancy term for how our podcast is doing. It looks like about two or three more people have picked up. So you know, last time we didn't get a dad joke, so we might get a double this time just to make up for it. But we'll see where we wind up at the end, because we still haven't met our hundred, but anyway. so today we were going to talk about leadership is ownership.

Speaker 1: 0:59

Something that's pretty near and dear to me is, you know, the effectiveness of leadership, and I know you and I have actually talked together a class on leadership and having difficult conversations. It was looked at through the lens of cancer when we did it, and then you dealt with the mental health aspect of it. But you know, talking about leadership that is something that the fire service focuses on so much. I mean, how many times have we sat through classes about leadership company officer, officer, fire officer one, two, three, four. you know National Fire Academy. There's classes all over the place about leadership. But from your experience, what do you think some of the classes are? What do you think some of the big topics are that we see leadership address nowadays.

Speaker 2: 1:55

I know when I That could be a loaded question, yeah, and.

Speaker 1: 2:01

I saw you smile when I said that. But let me lead off by telling you what I see. Leadership for a long time has been how to fill out paperwork, how to write a disciplinary action, how to not be the buddy when you get promoted You can't be the buddy of the guys on the truck anymore, and different things like that. But I see some holes in the armor and you know, so to speak. Have you kind of seen the same thing going on?

Speaker 2: 2:30

Oh yeah, absolutely. You know, it's funny. I just taught a class today a couple counties over and there was a. It was about leadership and taking proactive roles. We did a mental firefighter mental health, behavior, health awareness class today And somebody brought up that if you're going to talk to talk, you better walk the walk.

Speaker 1: 3:02

But wait a minute. You just said proactive. You can't be using that kind of language around here, You cannot be proactive in the fire service. you know that Otherwise you start falling into fire prevention and how evil?

Speaker 2: 3:12

they are, yeah, but yeah, and that's very true. If you're going to say that you are going to do something or you're going to hold this specific position, title, rank, whatever, you better be ready to to take it on full bore and own up to every aspect of whatever that position is. And that's everything from the easy stuff to the hard stuff, everything in between, and you know he hit it right on the head today. You know if you're going to talk, to talk about this stuff, you know you better be able to follow up with it and, you know, prove that you're doing it.

Speaker 1: 4:00

Yeah, i agree with what you're saying wholeheartedly. Can I lead off with a story to kind of frame why this is something that's on the mind Man? this was probably five, six years ago, back when we were still relatively new to cancer reliance And I had gotten a phone call from this eager young firefighter. He's like hey, i like what you guys are talking about. And this was back when we were more in the scared straight mode, where it was, you know, sharing numbers and scaring people about you know what they're exposed to and cancer rates and things like that Stuff that we take for granted now. Right, and I remember he was so excited, you know we drove I don't know it was like an hour hour and a half to the volunteer department that he was at And we went into the dayroom and you know I'm all excited to be talking about these numbers that could change people's lives And he was excited about it to this young firefighter. But after about 10 minutes, this gruff, salty old captain I'm assuming he was either captain or chief he came down and he plopped down in the recliner and he listened for about 10 minutes. Anyway, he said, well, enough of this crap. And then he got up and he walked upstairs. He said I'm going to bed. And the minute he walked upstairs the room went deathly silent And you could look at the other firefighters and we're looking at each other. What do we do? Or do we follow the chief? What do we do? And more than half of them went up there with the chief and disappeared for us evening and we only had like two or three guys left downstairs.

Speaker 1: 5:39

And I tell that story a lot to kind of prove the point that if you don't have buy in from leadership on whatever program, whether it be cancer or whatever, if you don't have the buy in from leadership, then it's not going to be successful. And you know that that is something that we have seen a hundred and eighty degree turn in, i think, here in our industry. Because when you get to a conference now, what are they talking about? Cardiac cancer, mental health, all the big stuff that was kind of taboo five, 10 years ago. And you know, and even like when we give our presentations talking about, you know, cancer in the fire service, it used to be real heavy on numbers. But we've kind of gotten away from that. We still talk about numbers. But what are we talking about now We're talking about OK, how do you prevent it?

Speaker 1: 6:29

Then we go as far as I start talking about the leadership. How do you have the conversations? What do you talk about? How do you practically handle a situation where someone comes to you and talks about having cancer? So that is the lens that I've kind of looked at this through, and I have been blessed to have excellent leadership. My time in the fire service, whether it be my division chief or even our department chief, the three that I've had since, you know, i've been in the fire service, have been awesome And they've always led by, led by design, led by what they do. And, you know, have you found the same to be the case during your career? As far as, like you know, if you don't have the buy in from the, from the guys wearing the white shirts, then sometimes it just don't happen.

Speaker 2: 7:17

Yeah, and I've seen each end of the spectrum and everything in between, from really good company officers up to chief officers. That have been absolutely fantastic And then some not so good And we'll be nice when we say that And that makes it difficult And you are with. Whether you are a company officer or not, maybe even up higher than a company officer, you do set an example. Whether you realize it or not, people are gonna be paying attention and the culture of the way people perceive it. You can create your own momentum. Be that person.

Speaker 2: 8:14

There is another well-known instructor in the country that talks about having a target on their back And, no matter what, they're trying to do the right thing for the right reasons and to get buy-in from people. And sometimes that's a difficult thing to do, especially when morale gets to a point where it's so low that our officers don't care about us or our department doesn't care about us or they're not addressing these issues. Whatever the case is And sometimes we have to do that on our own to get that momentum going and to create a positive environment in the fire department And if you have people that are truly into the job not just guys that work at the fire department, but guys that are truly into the job and they truly love it. You can create this stuff on your own.

Speaker 1: 9:12

You know it's interesting. I was listening to another firefighter podcast today actually when I was out And hopefully someday we can get these guys on here as guests. they're really awesome. But they were talking about promotions and when someone's promoted to a role of leadership, whether it be a company officer or even a chief, when you come in, how you approach that position or that promotion within the first couple of weeks, first couple of months is going to set the tone for the rest of your career in that position, absolutely. And they were saying if you come in wishy-washy, if you come in, you know, kind of walking around, not exactly knowing what you're doing or not standing up for what you believe, or whatever the case is, then the guys will pick up on it real quick, almost like Piranha's on a pork chop.

Speaker 1: 10:06

they're gonna hey, oh, okay, oh we know what his weakness is, and they're gonna take advantage of it, and I think that's human nature, yeah and they will eat you up.

Speaker 2: 10:17

And I've seen the opposite end of that too, where people may get the big head syndrome. You know, oh, i just got promoted. Well, guess what? You? yesterday, you were wearing the same color shirt, the same color helmet as I was, and now, all of a sudden, things are changed 180 degrees. You know, get off that high horse here a minute, buddy. And uh, somebody flip a switch. Yeah, let's figure out how to do the job before we start throwing weight around. And look at what I got shining on my collar now.

Speaker 1: 10:54

Yep, and you know, one thing that I've always been told, since I've been in the fire service, has been anytime you have a success is generally because of the people around you, the people that work for you, the people that work with you, the people that are over you. It's the support you get from underneath, the support you get from the sides, it's the support you get from the top down.

Speaker 2: 11:16

That's what makes one successful, so that makes it From the chief down to the company officer level. you're only as good as what your people make you look to be.

Speaker 1: 11:27

Exactly, and I can speak right now. The guys that work directly for me are the best guys in the world.

Speaker 2: 11:34

And.

Speaker 1: 11:35

I know that if I need something, they're there.

Speaker 1: 11:39

I know that I may not always make the best decision.

Speaker 1: 11:43

They may appreciate at the moment, but you know what, they support it And because of them I'm able to have a measure of peace and, at the same time, i guess, respect, i guess to a certain level, and it all has to go back with what we feed out And you know, as any type of leadership in the fire service, if we don't put value into something, then nobody else will.

Speaker 1: 12:11

But at the same time, when we decide well, this is something important that I wanna talk about and we'll use mental health as an example If I, as a chief or a captain, if I don't give value to like a debriefing, or give value to hey, are you feeling okay? If I think that's sissy stuff, or if I think that real men don't cry, if I'd say any of those things, i'm pretty much pushing it away. But the minute I say, hey, how you doing today, i have to accept the fact that sometimes people don't have a good day, sometimes people have issues that they have to work through, and ownership of the realities of the fire service are something that we have to look at from a leadership perspective. We have to be willing to handle the hard questions and tackle the hard issues sometimes in order for us to be successful and to have a successful organization.

Speaker 2: 13:07

I think Yeah, absolutely, and you mentioned some things right there. Just asking a simple question. We have to be aware of the words that were speaking, the actions that were portraying with our companies, with our department, with the personnel, and we need to be prepared for that. That if we ask that question, hey, how are you today? And you kind of catch somebody off guard. That's not in the best space, not having a good day, and well, i'm really not doing all that great today. Okay, am I prepared to answer that, or was I just throwing fluff out there as I was walking by somebody? We need to be prepared to be able to answer that question and respond to that question with the answers that we get, and we've got to allow our people to understand that we do care about them, especially at the company officer level. And to me.

Speaker 2: 15:01

I spent a large majority of my career as a company officer And I've learned a lot of things Good, a lot of bad. I've learned from a lot of mistakes that I made as a company officer personally, a lot of things that I wish I could take back or I could have changed. But no matter what, i took it as a learning lesson And I still try to apply that today, even though I'm not in the fire service anymore, and it's important to give your people that comfort level that you truly care about the job and, more than anything, you care about the needs of what your people are.

Speaker 1: 15:47

Very good, And that's the thing that I think sometimes we may lose sight of is the fact that we are an organization but at the same time, the organization is made up of smaller parts and pieces, which are the individuals. And if we don't look at the individuals or listen to what their problems are and take to a certain degree ownership of their problem to help them work through certain things, then we may be in a failure point as a leader.

Speaker 2: 16:21

Yes, absolutely. And the We look at some of the biggest problems that we face in the fire service. You know, recruiting and retention Yeah, we'll just throw that one out there. You know why does fire department XYZ always have vacancies, you know? or why do people go only spend a certain amount of time and then they leave. Um one person, two people, yeah, that might be a them problem, but if you're seeing that on a consistent basis, you know constant turnover, constant turmoil within your organization, um, yeah, i'm a strong believer. One, one bad apple can can ruin a bunch. So if we don't take care of that problem and we don't address that problem, yes, we can create a poisonous toxic environment within that organization. But if we're seeing multiple turnovers, is it the individuals or is it the leadership?

Speaker 1: 17:26

Mm-hmm, Yeah, I know in my own personal case. Before I was in the fire service, when I worked at another job, um, I had a boss who was very toxic and she was very difficult to deal with And at first I was like, man, am I just the only one that doesn't jam around here? And then, next thing, I know there's other coworkers that work in other sections of the building that have um, experiences that were similar but of a different nature.

Speaker 1: 17:58

And eventually you begin to see that as soon as that person is gone, then all of a sudden everything starts running like a sewing machine.

Speaker 2: 18:06

Everybody changes Exactly.

Speaker 1: 18:09

And that was when I was in retail a very long time ago. But, um you know, it was amazing at how quick, um you know, just an adjustment in the leadership could just totally turn the direction of the ship And you mentioned, that was in retail.

Speaker 2: 18:27

Um, the fire service is completely different than retail. You know that? Yep, absolutely. And if we have unhappy, unhealthy work environments, um, what that does to us is what that does to our employees.

Speaker 2: 18:42

You know we're dealing with people's lives on a daily basis And if we're creating an environment that is not conducive for them to be happy and healthy and enjoy being around you know, the firehouse, other coworkers, things like that you know, or feel like they're not being supported or they're not being listened to by the management side of things. Man, we're, we're playing. We're playing a dangerous game with people's lives.

Speaker 1: 19:13

No doubt. And the retail job I was talking about. I will go ahead and tell you this because they have bellied up and gone away. It was Radio Shack And I always joke. Oh yeah, i always jokingly say trust me, i used to work at Radio Shack.

Speaker 1: 19:27

Um and my boss rolls his eyes because he used to work there too My chief, now my division chief. So, uh, you know it. It. It all goes back to like you were saying, it doesn't matter the industry if folks aren't in leadership, aren't willing to address the problems and look at the problems, if you bury your head in the sand, it's not going to get any better. And, and like you mentioned before, um, a lot of it has to do with personal attitude. You know some people, they, they get real prideful as soon as they get a promotion or you know a certain duty or whatever.

Speaker 1: 20:00

Um, and then there's some people that you know they, uh, let's see, i think the proper term is promote to the level of incompetence. You know some people. You know they're, they're really good at what they do, but after they promote past a certain point, they become ineffectual. Um, I've not necessarily seen that in my current job, but I'll go back to previous experiences. It was kind of the same thing. Oh, he was a great guy, but the minute he becomes a manager, he becomes an owner, he becomes, you know, someone who has authority, you know above and beyond, you know total different person and he's very ineffectual at that job, but unfortunately he can't back back down. But, uh, you know, like, like I mentioned before, um, i am blessed with a very good leadership.

Speaker 1: 20:47

Where I am now, you know our chief now he is, he is, he is a very um open person when it comes to being aware of what's going on in his department. Um, you know, chief Williams um is. He knows everybody by name, he knows your family, he knows what you do, he knows where you ride, he knows you know what part you know what section are you in, And he understands that now, granted our departments probably 300 people give or take, that's still impressive for one person. In my opinion, that is very impressive. And the thing about chief Williams, though, is, um, if you've got a problem and you talk to him, um, he's going to figure out a way to to make it. You know, get better. Whether it's him or someone else, they'll, they'll, they'll be away. Um, and you know that's one of the things that I have a lot of respect for him.

Speaker 1: 21:42

And even chief Allen, who's on our board now, um, you know, when he was our chief before he retired, it was the same thing. He was very much focused on the individual. He always said faith family fire department. You know, his, his whole thing was, you know, uh, you've got to depend on the people around you And uh, if you can't trust your leadership, if you can't trust the ones that you're riding with or working with, you know, it's kind of a lost point.

Speaker 1: 22:05

Yeah, and he and he always went back to band of brothers, uh, the series that was on what was it? History channel or it's been a long time since I've watched it. But, um, he, he would always draw points for that. And whenever we did our um, our officer training, he came in and lectured us one day on on what true leadership is. And it was really good um to to see his perspective. And that was, you know, if you're going to look at a problem, you're going to have to accept the problem and you're going to have to figure out how to deal with the problem.

Speaker 1: 22:33

And when you do and you know and you're, and you buy into the other people's issues, then you can be successful as a leader.

Speaker 2: 22:40

Whatever Absolutely, and giving your people buy-in goes a long way too. You know, i always told the folks that I worked with they could come to me with a problem, no matter what it was, but at least come to me with a potential solution to the problem, exactly Because are we really addressing a problem or are we just being complainers? And there's a huge difference in the two, and maybe we might be able to use their suggestion. Maybe we won't be able to, but at least we gave them the opportunity, one to bring it to our attention and two try to help be a positive side to getting it resolved.

Speaker 1: 23:32

And that's like the guys I work with now. My division chief, he's like hey, if you've got a problem, bring it up to me, but bring up a potential solution.

Speaker 2: 23:43

Might not be the right solution.

Speaker 1: 23:45

And he said if it works, i'll back you up as far as I can. As long as you're consistent, accurate and fair, we'll back it up. And that's very much what you're talking about. We don't want to just be negative and complaining to. You know, if we have folks that are above us, we don't want to just complain to them because that can give us a bad reputation. But at the same time, when we're listening to others, listen with intent, not just shutting things out because, oh man, here's McGahy complaining again. You know, listen to what he's saying, even though, if you may have had a history of being negative, you never know there might be something that he brings up that could be useful. So it's kind of a two-way street. But from a leadership perspective, listening is huge.

Speaker 1: 24:31

And you know I'm amazed now with Apple watches and smart watches and phones. How many times have you been talking to someone? Are you reaching for your phone right now? Oh, i thought you were. You know they'll whip that phone. I'm joking, eric, you can smile He actually is smiling But Eddie's shaking his phone in. But how many times have you seen them get to watch? and they'll start scrolling through it Or they'll start looking on the phone, uh-huh.

Speaker 2: 25:00

Yeah, uh-huh.

Speaker 1: 25:01

What? Yeah, and you know you just have it's frustrating.

Speaker 2: 25:06

Active listening skills, yep And nobody has it anymore.

Speaker 2: 25:09

People need to learn active listening skills on the mental health side of what we're doing. You know that is a key component, you know, to make people feel like they're valued. You know, if you say that you have an open door policy as a company officer One, what does your open door policy look like, and is it truly an open door policy When you ask somebody? if somebody asks to talk to you, they knock on your door and everything else. you better be prepared for that. You might have to flip the screen down on your computer, might have to put your phone away and you need to give them your undivided attention.

Speaker 2: 25:50

Yep, you know, if it's something time pressing that you need to get taken care of, explain it to them. You know, hey, give me five minutes and I promise I will come find you and we'll sit down and we'll talk. But I've got to get this done. But don't bring them in there. Allow them to come in there and not give them your undivided attention, because that.

Speaker 1: 26:13

I know personally how that would make me feel Yeah, so I can only imagine how it's making somebody else feel as well, and you know, like we teach in our class, that time that somebody comes in with your open door policy and they say, hey, chief, i've got insert horrible situation, whether it be a death in a family cancer, i've got, you know, heart issues, whatever it is, when that bomb drops it can be very. That could turn out from being a five minute open door conversation to a 30 minute closed door conversation, because you have to be ready to step up And you know that's where you have to embrace the problem and take ownership of it.

Speaker 2: 27:04

Yeah, absolutely, and that something like that. Going going down that road, that's not going to be a one and done. No, you're coming in having that one conversation Because, guess what? Now I've got the responsibility of being not just a good company officer but being a good, kind hearted individual, and I'm going to have to do follow ups And I'm going to have to check on them. I'm going to make sure he's okay And I'm going to let him know that I truly value him and that I'm looking out for him. I don't feel that that's happening. Yeah, well, all the time anyway.

Speaker 1: 27:42

Well, not all the time, but I do see light on the horizon Because when you start sitting through training whether leadership training, officer training, whatever we are dealing with a new generation of firefighters now that are different than they were five, 10 years ago And you have to be more empathetic or sympathetic, you have to take, you know, feelings into consideration and you know you can't trump on people anymore.

Speaker 1: 28:17

You have to, you have to build them up And you know there is a place for that. But at the same time, you know when you're in the paramilitary organization yet you know there is a certain level of expectation of hard times and that you're gonna get. But I do see hope on the horizon that a lot of the newer leadership sees that, hey, i have to. I have to see what's a problem for my organization and I have to try to find a way to address it. Whether it be through an idea I have or somebody I work with or listen to a podcast all clear podcast. You know you might get a great idea, or you may hear something that is so terrible you're like I am not gonna do that. That is the worst idea, right? Sometimes good ideas are grown out of bad ones.

Speaker 2: 29:04

And you just mentioned something that you know addressing the issue, no matter what it is, whether it's easier, it's difficult That position and having that responsibility sometimes means having to confront things that are uncomfortable. And if we don't guess what we're gonna have, guess what we're gonna cultivate within our organization And that is disgruntled employees, that's gonna be unhappy workers, that's gonna create mediocrity and not people you know striving to achieve, and that can lead down a very dangerous road. You gotta be able to address that elephant in a room If you know you have a morale issue or you hear people talking about a morale issue or they're unhappy. Whatever the case is, figure it out.

Speaker 2: 30:07

Why Is it something that we're doing? Is it something that the rank and file firefighters are doing amongst themselves and we're missing it at the company officer level? And maybe the chiefs need to find out from the company officers hey, why are we seeing this? Why are we hearing this? Why are you guys allowing that to happen? Or if we are addressing it and we find out that it's things that we have to put in place due to our middle management position, hey, okay, i've heard your valid concerns here. I'll forward them up. That's all I can do. But it makes them feel valued then at that point that we are taking that time to listen to them, that they're not just cogs in a machine and we expect them to show up every two days, every other day, whatever kind of schedule rotation you were, that we value you, we're gonna listen to you and we want you to be happy and healthy while you're here at the firehouse. Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 31:13

And you know, to reinforce that, I am in the process of trying to get us some more guests that are exemplary in different aspects of dealing with people and leadership, particularly in the fire service, because I know some great company officers and some great chief officers not just that Concord where I am, but at other places as well that I think we can all learn from. So definitely something that we need to dig into a little bit further.

Speaker 1: 31:42

But anyway, just something that was on my mind today, talking about ownership and leadership, how closely intertwined they are, and we could talk on this forever, absolutely Speaking of which, well, not even speaking of which, i got a question for you, eric.

Speaker 2: 31:58

Uh-huh.

Speaker 1: 31:59

Uh-huh. Do you know what the triangle said to the circle?

Speaker 2: 32:05

Oh, my gosh No, but I have a feeling you're gonna tell me Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 32:10

The circles was told by the. the triangle told to the circle hey, you're pointless Shoo. All right how soon do you think we can get to 100 listers? Hopefully soon.

Speaker 2: 32:24

Hopefully soon. Yeah, we did have a busy week. Last week You were able to join us down in Wilmington at the leadership conference. Down there We handed out a lot of flyers, we made a lot of good contacts, yep. And then, right after we left you there, the peer team we went to the South Carolina State Fire Expo. We had a great time down there, had a lot of great connections with some people. We handed out a bunch of podcast flyers. So hopefully we can hit that 100 mark pretty quickly. Please, people like us share us.

Speaker 2: 33:09

We could help us with this difficult situation.

Speaker 1: 33:12

Hey, we get away from We might come up with other jokes on it. Yeah, we'll go to Elton jokes next. Okay, yeah, yeah, Yeah. No, i have a whole book of those.

Speaker 2: 33:20

Hey, and that's a good way for us to keep promoting man. You know we go from the dad jokes. okay, now we're on to elephant jokes. We hit 200 people. We quit the elephant jokes. We're gonna knock knock jokes. We got them stagnate, yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:33

But you know it is very important. Like I said, we've met a ton of awesome people. We've met other podcasters that have said they're willing to come and talk with us And you know this is a national thing. Now We've got people downloading all over the country, actually all over the world at this point, which really shocks me, is very humbling for people to be willing to listen to two boys from North Carolina talk about the fire service and what's on our minds. But you know, as always, our website, hopefully, is up and running at this point. We've been hitting a few hiccups. It is allclearpodcastcom, but you can get ahold of me at tmcgaha at ncfirefightercancerorg. That's tmcgaha at ncfirefightercancerorg. And Eric, how can we get ahold of you? Mine's pretty easy.

Speaker 2: 34:30

Info at frpsnorg soon.