Five Pillars for Speaking the Truth in Love to Mormons: Pillar 4

Welcome to another episode of the Witnessing Christ Podcast! In this session, we continue our journey through the Five Pillars of relational evangelism, focusing on the fourth pillar: "Speak the Mormon Language."

Mark, Grace, Charlie, Jon, Calvin, and Molly discuss the importance of understanding Mormonism's unique vocabulary and how it differs from biblical Christianity—even when the same words are used. Words like grace, faith, heaven, salvation, atonement, and repentance carry different meanings in an LDS context. This episode equips listeners to recognize those differences and offers practical ways to communicate biblical truths clearly and compassionately.

Learn how to define terms thoughtfully, ask better questions, and avoid misunderstandings that can derail conversations. Whether you're talking about eternal life, the gospel, or who Jesus is, this episode helps you speak in a way that your Mormon friends can truly understand.

For more on TILM's Five Pillars, visit tilm.org/our-witnessing-approach.

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Transcript

Five Pillars pt. 4

00:00:00 Unknown: Welcome back to the Witnessing Christ podcast. You guys, the whole group is here today. I am with Mark and Grace and John and Charlie and Calvin. Hey, everybody. Hey, Molly. You're supposed to say hi, guys. Podcast. Verbal ho. Hello. Greetings. They're all waking up from their afternoon naps, it sounds like. Okay, we are talking about, uh, the next pillar when witnessing to our LDS friends. So we've talked about. See Mormons as victims and not enemies. Treat them with love and respect. Focus on Mormon stress points. And today we're talking about how to speak the Mormon language. Okay, Mark, that sounds weird because most Mormons in America, at least, speak English. What's going on here? Fill us in. Yeah, so maybe I'll start with this little story. So when I was holding the call to serve as a pastor at Truth and Love, one of the things I was excited about is I was gonna get to do world mission work and not have to learn a new language. Well, guess what? I was wrong. I've had to learn a new language. It's the language of Mormonism that is in many ways More complicated than any language that I have ever learned because even though it is in English, it is extremely nuanced In so many ways that even though I have been studying the language on a daily basis for four years, I would say that I am far from fluent in Mormonism or Mormonese as we sometimes refer to it. One of the things that on a daily basis I just have to remind myself is that I need to be very careful when I am talking with Mormons not to Fall into using Christian terms that are also used in Mormonism without unpacking them and explaining them. And today we'll look at some of the very basic ones like faith. Grace, sin, even Jesus are loaded words in Mormonism that if we just throw them out in the way that we commonly use them, we often just find ourselves talking in circles. And not really getting across to each other what we actually mean or we think we're agreeing with each other and we're ready to move on. So lots, lots to really think about when it comes to understanding this language. Um, I would say you don't have to be an expert in the Mormon language. But it's good to have a few basics, um, well understood. And that will serve you very well as you go out and speak the truth in love. I just had a conversation with a Mormon, um, a new friend the other day, and she had just visited a Christian church in the area, and she says, I guess I just feel like we pretty much believe the same thing. And okay, from my perspective, no, no, we do not. But the reason she said that we're going to talk about today is, you know, we use this. Same religious words, but defined them, defined them so differently. So maybe we should jump into some of those words. Um, probably a good Bible passage that we could talk about would be, um, Ephesians two and nine For it is by grace you have been saved through faith. What do you hear when you read that passage and what do Mormons hear when they read that passage? I guess what Mormons probably hear when they read that passage is that it's Because of God's enabling power that he gives us that we well that's kind of that grace idea but then it also becomes interesting with their idea of saved then because saved is something that you don't necessarily need that enabling power for because Jesus Saved you through his work. He's completely given that to you, but saved means more of that resurrection idea. You're Able to get to one of the kingdoms of heaven and then through faith, faith being something that's based on the individual too, so. I guess what they hear is more of that you've been given the opportunity to advance to the celestial kingdom because of what Jesus has done for you and because of what you believe. Grace, I really appreciate you saying that like almost every single word in this has some baggage surrounding it. And then when they're all connected together, it doesn't really teach Mormon doctrine at all. And that's why many gravitate more towards the second Nephi twenty-five twenty-three verse that is very similar to this for it is by grace you are saved. I really appreciate you even focusing on that word saved because yeah, in Mormon theology, you really don't need grace for salvation. Salvation in its general sense is applied to everyone. Universally physical resurrection from the dead. So I think we should just go through a bunch of words one at a time and give us what the Mormon hears and then give us some better ways to say it. So I came up with a category for trying to figure out like, okay, the good place where it's, you know, for Christians, it's heaven. But heaven, we have kind of a lot of words to describe heaven. Um, So we're going to talk about all the words in that category first. So first of all, if I say heaven to a Mormon friend, what do they hear? They just hear whatever comes after the resurrection of the dead. So, um, it's the idea that there's life beyond death. Um, or there's an opportunity beyond death. Um, and what Jesus has done, this is similar to what Grace was pointing out. What Jesus has done on the cross or in the Garden of Gethsemane, I guess, is, uh, wipe our slate clean so that, um, When we die, we're not judged then for what we have done or not done, but now we're given the opportunity to progress and Um, and go, at least that's what the Mormons that I've been talking to have been saying. Now, what I thought they were going to say was more of the, um, Like wherever I end up eventually, like the three kingdoms are heaven and then hell is outer darkness. But I actually haven't, I don't know what the official doctrine is actually, but that's not what I've. Uh, bumped into what I bumped into is heaven is the generic thing that happens after you die. Um, unless you're one of those rare people that goes to outer darkness and doesn't get a chance to progress. Um, Everybody goes to heaven and then what you do here and in heaven determines what will happen to you on the last day and which one of the three kingdoms you'll end up in. Charlie, I want to come back to some of the doctrinal content you said, but you also made a very important statement there about the people I've been talking to. This is the way in which they explain this. And I think that's another part of what makes this concept or this pillar so difficult is that We can read textbooks, we can listen to general conference talks on a subject matter like resurrection or heaven or the three kingdoms, and that's what their more official Um, leaders are teaching, but often there is a great difference between what's taught and what's actually caught by the average Mormon. And so increasingly when it comes to speaking the Mormon language, it is using our ears before our mouth. When it comes to those conversations and asking the person that we are speaking with to define the terms for us or to explain how they're using the word. Because I've been in those situations where I got into a lengthy conversation with a Latter-day Saint and I realized I don't think they're using this word in the way that traditional Mormons use it. So I would stop then and there and ask them to define that word for me. And that's such an important thing for us to be willing to do. Um, when we've met with missionaries at our kitchen table, I have found that that's one of the most beneficial ways to get conversations going is just to define terms back and forth and Do not be surprised that the definition that they give you is not traditional historical Mormon doctrine, but some sort of a hybrid between traditional Mormon doctrine. Christianity in a sense, and then their own interpretation of it. So if you want to talk about heaven, what do you say instead? I talk about eternity together with God. Um, because of what Christ has done for me, I get to spend eternity together with God. Um, and that is both celestial. So like. Um, we don't, we don't believe in all the family stuff like you have that your family's progressing there with you and it's going to be procreating with your family for eternity and all that kind of stuff. Right. Um. But, uh, what we, yeah, I heard it too. Um, sorry. Um, I gotta compose myself. I'm sorry. Okay. Um, We don't believe in all the things that they say go along with celestial kingdom, but celestial kingdom is defined as me being together with heavenly father and Jesus kind of full time. In eternity. Uh, and that is what we believe heaven is. Um, and so instead of talking about, well, I get to go be in heaven, their ultimate goal is celestial kingdom. Um, My ultimate goal is also a very similar thing to celestial kingdom. Um, but if I say celestial kingdom, they got all the baggage that goes along with that. So the short answer to your question is I talk about being together with God for all of eternity because they understand that's the goal. I understand that's the goal. And now we're kind of united in our thinking about why, um, I need, uh, well, What the ultimate goal is, I guess. Would you ever use the word paradise and why or why not? I'm gonna snatch this one up, too, if it's okay, because I just had a conversation about it. Sorry, John. You can talk about it, too, if you want. Um, but I just... Used, um, the thief on the cross the other day, um, for, uh, so we were talking about this exactly, right? The, the same conversation I was just saying is what I will go be with God forever. In eternity, in paradise, the moment I die, just like the thief on the cross did, and there's no room in any of these passages for me to progress or work on it while I get there, and um, the immediate Uh, the immediate response was, well, that word paradise is mistranslated. That's what Joseph Smith told us, which he did say that that word is mistranslated. And of course, um. I, just out of curiosity, looked at the Greek, which is, the Greek word for paradise is? Paradise. So the word actually hasn't been translated from the original text. And so I... To my shame, perhaps. Actually cut and pasted the Greek word and said, you pronounce this word as paradise. This is the word that's used in the original Greek. And she goes, yeah, Joseph said it was mistranslated and there was no getting past it. So, um, I don't know what to do with that. But, um, I'm going to continue using it and continue talking about it and just continue calling out that. I think that's a good place to call out the translation thing. Like, whoa, that word didn't even get translated. You believe that the Greek New Testament is inspired, right? And usually the answer is yes. And the same way the Book of Mormon is, usually the answer is yes. Okay, well that word actually didn't get translated, it get transliterated, it's still a word that appears in Greek. Even in your English Bible. Charlie, you are doing a great job bringing up some additional things to think about when it comes to speaking the Mormon language, and one is Often, especially the missionaries are going to play this trump card of, oh, that's a mistranslation or a mistransmission of the text. And often that gets us into a place where we start to wonder. Oh, now what do I do? And it's their trump card that they play to try and end the conversation. But instead of allowing it to end the conversation, we need to just continue to trust. In the power of God's word and whether they believe it's God's word or not, we need to continue to go with it. Was there anything else on, on paradise before we moved on from that one? Yeah, I think it deserves to be said. This idea of the spirit world in LDS theology, uh, where they actually have like a few jobs to do even, uh, So it's a waiting place. It's not. I guess if you want to take paradise and it's true sense doesn't really seem like it's true a sense of paradise because it's a waiting place where the work continues. And as opposed to, uh, paradise or the spirit world, you could be potentially in spirit prison. Uh, and if you find yourself in a place such as spirit prison, well, there you might get some spirits from the paradise land to come cross over. Somehow into the spirit prison world and give them a chance to accept their understanding of the gospel. Before the final judgment, so this is all happening before judgment day, I suppose. Um, yeah, is there anything else that I'm missing at this whole idea of the spirit? Well, I guess we'll come to it eventually anyways, so. Pastor, I'm sure you have plenty to add, but I think I would make it, my understanding and what I'm seeing, like I'm looking at the LDS website right now, my understanding is Is that spirit paradise is for those who are on the highway or the fast track to celestial kingdom, which is why I've been comfortable just leaving it at that. Um, and not wanting to specify cause those, those souls in order to end up in spirit paradise instead of spirit prisoner, spirit school, um, Have to have progressed or have been good in this life and so forth, which makes, for example, the story of the thief on the cross. He doesn't have any time to progress to the point where he would be welcome in spirit. Paradise. Um, so it serves, it serves our purpose in evangelizing. Um, but like John pointed out, it's not our heavenly goal that we think of as Christians. Now, well said, and I think the point that you were making there, Charlie, about how for so many Latter-day Saints, they believe that if you're going to end up in spirit paradise, You needed to be on that high track. You needed to be receiving the gospel in this life, doing the ordinances, keeping the covenants, being committed. And that does provide us with a valuable opportunity to talk about that thief on the cross story and really say, did he have time to do anything? He didn't, um, he trusted in Jesus. He didn't have some higher knowledge that got him to that place. It was the relationship that got him to what we would call spirit or true paradise. Yeah, I find I generally avoid the word unless it's in the context of that passage and then, then it's fun to talk about it. Pretty interesting. Absolutely. Okay, this word, salvation, Jesus saves, drives me crazy. All right, tell me, tell me, explain, why does it drive me crazy? So we already kind of talked about it a little bit with the Ephesians two passage, but yeah, all those different words saved, salvation, even like Jesus is my savior, anything built off of that or sell his salvific work if you want to get one layer deeper. Um, it all means just physical resurrection. So you can say you're saved, saved by grace or salvation is a free gift. And they'd go, yep, we agree. And then you can move on and be none the wiser. Um, But yeah, the LDS concept of salvation is just the fact that you will be physically resurrected when you die or after you die. And then beyond that is up to you. Uh, whereas the biblical, the Christian, uh, Perception of it is salvation is ultimately being saved from eternal damnation and then being, um, uh, brought into, like Charlie said, eternal life with God, living with God forever. So that's our version of. Salvation is living with God. Something they might call exaltation or celestial kingdom and stuff we'll get into. But that's, that's kind of where the tension is with that word. So if you want to say Jesus saves, but you don't want to say saves, what do you do? I like, I like, I just like to say Jesus guarantees that I will live with God forever. I mean, it's kind of the same thing that Charlie said for, um, how do you say, um, I'm going to heaven or something like that, but just Jesus's work means I'm going to live with God forever. Um, that's, that's kind of the way to package it, I'd say. Yeah, so maybe even to build off it with kind of rescue ideas. What, what has he rescued me from or what has he saved me from? And for Mormons, it's mostly just the physical death that he has saved us from. And so when I talk about it, I build on and say, When I use the word salvation, I'm including everything that God has done for us in Jesus Christ, that he has made, he's taken my sins away, paid for them on the cross. Brought me into a saving relationship as a child, God and child of God that guarantees that I am an heir of eternal life. So I will, I will like give them this whole list of things like this is what I mean by what he's rescued me from and for. What did he rescue you from and for? And it's often a much different list. Lately, I'm on a reconciliation kick. It seems to be going well. If I say, um, Jesus reconciled me to God, that also kind of implies that, hey, I'm good with Heavenly Father now. I can live forever with Him. Um, heaven. But Yeah, so far it's, it's working. Uh, eternal life. What, what do LDS mean? How can we be more specific? It's going to get a little repetitive, but then, then you'll catch on. Yeah, it's hard to talk about some of these without talking about the other ones. So eternal life I feel like is where we try and go usually like in our conversations with these because eternal life tends to be more of that. Celestial kingdom idea living with heavenly father. So as others have said, when we talk about our view of salvation, usually saying like eternal life with heavenly father kind of gets to that idea. Yeah, and this is one that has changed over the years. Even in some of our oldest resources with Truth in Love, we had in the definition for eternal life that Mormons often more commonly talk about eternal lives. And that's the idea that for all of eternity in the celestial kingdom, you will be propagating eternal lives and starting this whole process over again. I would say I've heard several older Mormons over the years use that sort of concept, but a lot of younger ones that are being influenced more By Christians and Christian language are much more familiar with the more biblical concept of eternal life than they are this idea of eternal lives that the propagation of spirit children for all of eternity. So I would say that's a primary example of how even in their own theology, it's been greatly influenced by actual true biblical theology. And so that's one that we can build off of. Something I might add to what you just said there, I've had the same experience where some people talk about like a capital E eternal life, like what you're talking about. When you say the word eternal life, that is specifically talking about something in the celestial kingdom. But if you use, if you use everlasting life, that's different. That's just talking about the fact that we will all live forever to the point where. You know, if you, if you cite a passage that talks about Jesus giving everlasting life by grace through faith or whatever. The person I'm speaking to will say, oh yeah, that's, that's just salvation. That's just resurrection. It doesn't actually prove that there's any sort of grace beyond just the fact of resurrected. So then it's trying to find a verse in the King James Bible that uses the word eternal. I don't, Haven't found one yet. Most of the time it uses everlasting and stuff. But anyway, it's really is case by case with that one. I've noticed as well. I've got a question. Um, it seems to me from time to time, at least that, uh, the, the word eternal Like serves as some other adjective than what, than being without time. Is that accurate, So it seems to me just the way that a lot of the Mormons that I'm talking to are using the word eternal is It seems to me like they're not talking about like the concept of time without end. They're talking about, um, like the way one must live in order to gain such an experience. And yeah, now I think I know where you're going. And not only the way in which you gain that, but what you will be doing once you get there. And so I've heard even some very modern, I'll call them like pop, um, apologist or pop theologians in the church where they're really saying like, Eternal life isn't so much about where we're going to be or whom we're going to be with, but about what we are going to be doing. And they'll really describe that as in the eternal realm, we are divine and we will be able to, because we've been fully exalted, do things that only the eternal beings can do. Um, I, I think the, is it Marvel has the Eternals? They're, they're these kind of greater superhero beings. I, I think they're almost using that sort of thing that you're, you're more of this, you've got this Capacity that only the divine has and they're using it in that sense. Yeah, so I've been hearing that too, that in this life you are learning how to be a part of this eternal realm. And it isn't just time-based. What do you think about the word exaltation? Um, so, you know, basically exaltation is the highest level of celestial kingdom. And what I'm asking is like, Is it true, what's the, for a Christian to use the word exaltation, can we use that safely with Mormons or is what we believe just way too different so it'd be confusing? Well, um, the Christian idea, um, is that, I mean, like, like you read in, uh, Both Ephesians and Galatians and other writings of Paul. Paul talks about this idea that when we are raised together with Christ, we are also seated with Christ and uh, depending on which Book and chapter looking at perhaps even judge with Christ or reign with Christ or rule with Christ or whatever. And so it's not an unbiblical concept. Um, but when Mormons are talking about exaltation, um, what they're talking about, so a Christian understanding of exaltation My exaltation is I am, uh, along with the righteousness of Christ and the glory of Christ and the perfection of Christ, all those things that are being given to me by grace. Because Christ was my substitute on the cross. Essentially, what we're saying is when God looks at me, he doesn't see a sinful human being. He sees Jesus instead. Right? And so all the things that go with being Jesus also belong to us, um, in, in that sense. And so when we, when Christians talk, biblical Christians talk about being exalted, that's what they're talking about is, um, the exaltation that belongs to Jesus. I also get to be a part of because I'm attached to Christ. It's exactly the opposite for Mormons. It's because of what I have done, I now get the same kind of exaltation that Christ does because now we are essentially equal beings. I have made myself to rise to the point where Jesus and I can sit on the same pedestal and on the same stand. And it's because of what I have done to get there. Jesus made it possible. But after Jesus made it possible, then I put in the work to get to the point where I have the same status of Christ that Christ does. Um, and so the reason I get to sit on Christ's throne is not because Christ does. God decided to you through Christ to pull me out of darkness and to exalt me with Christ. He has given me the opportunity to make myself Christ, basically, which sounds offensive and should be offensive to biblical Christians. So would you use the word exaltation in, in your conversation? If you were going to say, I often phrase, what does it take to live eternally with heavenly father? I won't. Then say exaltation unless they're kind of looking at me and then I'll say to get your version of the celestial, what does this take? And usually I'm, I'm trying to go in a specific route in the conversation to get them to, to Differentiate between basic salvation and exaltation or eternal life in our sense. So that's when I will use it. Similar for you, Charlie or others. I have used it a lot in the past and I don't anymore. I just steer around it. There's other ways to say what I'm trying to say that aren't confusing. Well, they're going to be confusing, but not as confusing. Yeah, for me, I guess exaltation, I've never, I guess I don't quite know the use that Charlie's using there. When I think of exaltation, I think of only Christ. We talk about his humiliation, his exaltation. We're talking, you know, his life, how he became incarnate, all that kind of higher level stuff. Um, so like in my mind, it's difficult for me, even in a Christian context to use exaltation correctly when referring to anything other than just Christ. So then I'm not comfortable trying to express that nuance. So I usually just say, You know, every now and again, I'll say for a point of comparison, this is your version of exaltation. Here's what I think. But most of the time I just avoid it because I myself have not quite nailed down on how to use it in a context other than Christ. So. No, I think that's very fair to say that as Christians, it's not a word that we speak about very often. And if we do, we don't speak about it with great clarity. I think Charlie articulated it. Very clearly in the way that he's learned how to understand it, but I don't think the average Christian, if they were to use that word, would be using it in that way. They would probably be using it more in the way that Calvin did there when they're thinking about that only Christ After his state of humiliation is now in his state of exaltation. So maybe the last in our set of, um, the happy words, the good place words is simply resurrection. Do you use resurrection when you're talking about what Jesus gives you? Yeah, I think you can with members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but you have to, uh, distinguish, I suppose, the difference in their understanding of resurrection. So in LDS doctrine, resurrection is, In accordance with first Corinthians fifteen is the reuniting of the physical body, uh, with the spiritual, but so like once you die, Christ is going to return and then. Your body will be made imperishable is what the language Corinthians uses. Uh, there is a difference though in Who gets resurrected? Just in the, I saw in the Doctrine and Covenants eighty-eight it says the wicked will be resurrected at a later time, whereas the, and I'm not fully sure what that all entails for their doctrine, uh, whereas This will happen for the, uh, for all believers when Christ returns at the beginning of a second accompanying We say it, we look for the resurrection of the dead. That's one of the things we're looking for. Christ returns the perishable raised into the imperishable. And so since resurrection is so closely associated with the Christian understanding of salvation, I guess the next place to go would be back to our conversation on exaltation. And talking about the difference in our doctrine there. Less so than the difference in our doctrine on the resurrection because it is similar besides that one thing in Doctrine and Covenants eighty-eight that I mentioned. I find that the different teachings about the resurrection, um, or their different understanding about the resurrection is kind of a killjoy for Easter. Like, I, um, I want to invite my friends to the Easter service and they're like, yay! We get physical resurrection. Like, guys, you don't understand. It's all of it. Um, and so, and even in my experiences visiting a Mormon church on Easter, it's just kind of, It's not that exciting. You know, they're kind of, they do a little yay it's Easter, but they don't have the same joy because resurrection for them is just the physical resurrection, not the whole package. Yeah, it's just physical. It's not the spiritual renewal and rebirth that we receive with it. And yeah, it takes some of the joy away. Okay, ready to talk about all the sad words, all the bad place words. Okay, um, and I have to admit some of these I am unsure about what they believe about each of them. The only one I'm confident I know what they mean is outer darkness. So let's do that. Let's do that one first. What is outer darkness? Uh, sure, so Outer Darkness, like you said, that's the only one that is maybe a, like, that's one they use. Out of the list we have here, Hell, Damnation, Eternal Punishment, Outer Darkness. That's the one that is probably most common in LDS circles. And that's just the, um, again, I've also, this has been described to me even with a little bit of wiggle room, a couple of different ways. I've run into it where it is like the most impossible place to get into to the point that if you've been born on this earth and received a body, No matter what, you're already guaranteed to not go out of outer darkness. Outer darkness is only the place for Satan and his demons who in the premortal life didn't choose to come to earth. They rebelled. So I said that that was some missionaries that I met with. In person, that's how they described it is nobody's going to be there except Satan and his demons who never had a body to begin with. I don't know if that's the mainstream belief or the historical belief, because what I had thought before meeting and talking with them was it's the place of apostates and these people who have, um, you know, uh. They've interacted with the LDS beliefs and said, I understand all that you think. I don't believe that and I'm going to attack it and all this kind of thing. You know, you join the church, you leave it. Those types of people, apostates, go to outer darkness. So I think even in that term, even though it's more well-defined than these other ones in the LDS theology, it still has some of this wiggle room. And then in Christianity, We don't have any such words. So there's no way we can try to redeem this word with a Christian concept. It's just maybe we can use it as a point of comparison of, you know, when we say hell, we kind of mean what you mean by outer darkness or something like that. But we would never actually use the term ourselves, I don't think. Yeah, or if I would, I would say the outer darkness of hell because again, even though it's a term that is used in the Bible to describe hell, we commonly don't use that word. I've used it quite a bit, um, when dealing with parables because, so one of my strategies, especially for Truth and Love, like when I'm working with the Truth and Love Facebook page, is to get people to, they'll talk about Eventually in the conversation, they'll say something like, well, that's what Jesus teaches us in his parables. And I'll say, well, can you give me an example? And most of the time, whatever doctrine it is we're talking about is not explicitly taught in Jesus' parables. They are To steal some language, they are misinterpreting them. Or they are mistranslating them, perhaps. I don't know. Anyway. There are a whole bunch of parables that they try and use to talk about merits-based righteousness or whatever words you want to use. About earning a place in the celestial kingdom where something happens and they are thrown out to the, again, the literal translation is outer darkness where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth. That's the context in which I've used it quite a bit. Um, and say, well, there's no, there's either you're in, you're sitting with God at the, you're sitting with the master at the feast table or you're in art of darkness. There's no in between. Um, and they use that as parallels then to Christian doctrine. What if you want to talk about the bad place? What are you going to say? Can you say hell? Can you say damnation? Why do we need to? Um, I think the goal of, I'm not saying that we don't need to convict with the law. Um, it doesn't We have an innate sense of what's going to happen to us. We know what's going to happen to us if we are not good enough, if we can't make the cut, if we can't be made worthy. That's a natural thing that's inside of us and we know it. Uh, and I'm not saying I never talk about hell, um, but, uh, the conviction of the law is powerful and Not because I'm afraid of the place that I'm going to, it's because it's written on my heart that I know I'm not good enough and I ultimately have to please some, I'm accountable to some, I don't have to please, I'm accountable to some Authority outside of myself and usually outside of creation, uh, to whom I have to explain, if you will, uh, My behavior on this earth or who I have to placate his wrath or whatever it might be. Um, and. Maybe you guys disagree, but I would argue that the law does enough of its work on its own without getting into a fruitless argument with the Mormon about the concept of hell and what exactly hell is. Hell ultimately isn't a place of like fire with a guy with horns and a pitchfork poking you all for eternity or something like that. It is ultimately nothing more than separation from God for all eternity which is awful which they also don't want and I think leaning on the law is enough. I don't think we need to introduce the concept of hell in order to accomplish our purpose of talking about condemnation. When I do, it is more focused on what you were articulating right there at the end, that for a biblical Christian, anything outside of the celestial kingdom works. Would be hell. Because that would be eternal separation from Heavenly Father and His love. And so that's how I will speak about hell in that way. Other times when I will talk about hell very clearly is if I'm meeting with missionaries or someone that I've had a relationship that has been a little bit longer term. That I know is quickly going to come to an end. Maybe it's going to be they're making a transfer or they've told me this is the last lesson that I'm meeting with you. It is at that point that I will be emboldened to speak with them very clearly about how if they are trusting in Latter-day Saint doctrine as They have been explaining it to me or as I understand it, it only leads to one place, the eternal outer darkness of hell, separation from God for all eternity. And again, I'm not going to go into the nitty gritty details about what that looks like, but to say the goal that you have is to live with Heavenly Father for all eternity. This leads you in the exact opposite direction from that. Not to eternal glory with him, but for eternal darkness apart from him. So in the LDS Doctrine and Covenants 132 verses four through six and then also fifteen to twenty It teaches that those who don't enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, that's their sealing ordinance, will be damned In that they can no longer attain the highest degree of celestial glory. So far different from our understanding of separation from God when they say damnation. Uh, they're talking about like a cap, like, uh, this is where you're going to stop in your quest for excellent, awesome potential. It's going to be capped. You're going to be damned, uh, far, far different from what Mark was saying. Yeah, stop stopped up in your progression. So let's go on to some more, maybe they're miscellaneous because I don't have a category for them, but atonement. What do Mormons mean when they say atonement and what do we want, how do we want to rephrase it differently? I think atonement goes back to the idea of salvation and just being resurrected. I think that's usually what they're talking about when they talk about the atonement and the atonement taking place in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus took on all the pain and suffering for us. Is generally what I've understood as their definition versus more of ours. Jesus paid for all of our sins, made us right with God, and now we get to live with God and eternal life. Yeah, Charlie and I have discussed this a little bit before where even in the Bible, the word atonement is really one that has been I don't want to use the word contrived, but made up by modern translators to try and accurately capture a Very unique Old Testament biblical phrase. Charlie, do you want to expand on that concept that it's really trying to capture? So even as, you know, Young children, we often are taught that it means to make it one with or to bring back together, and that's part of it. But the original Hebrew word that this is built off of is even more powerful than that. So Charlie, you want to take that one and expand on it? You and I have talked about this before. Yeah, uh, like a better translation maybe of the word. So let me go back up. Um, the word atonement, uh, like if you break it down, it literally spells out at one. Right. Um, and, and that really is just the entire etymology of the word is English scholars. When they were translating the Bible into English for the first times, um, we're looking for, um, A word that would appropriately and accurately, um, like portray this, this point. Yeah. Uh, that that's being made when, when that word appears and another, like. In the same places that you'll find the word atonement in a lot of Bibles, you'll also, in other translations, find the word propitiation, um, which I don't know how to spell it, um, but I do know what it means. Um, and it's the idea of like appeasing or satisfying God's wrath. Um, so my condition before Christ enters the picture is, My condition is that God is angry with me. His wrath has been turned against me. Um. Essentially, there is a vacuum that exists between me and God. And unless that vacuum can be of goodness can be filled, I stand condemned. Um, and so the. The biblical concept of atonement or propitiation would be, um, basically filling that hole with something, right? Or filling that vacuum with something. Um, and it can't be my own righteousness. It can't be anything that I've created because I'm the one that created the, the, uh, the vacuum. It's almost as if like, um, if you're in a race. And you take the starting line and you just move it way back. And you just keep moving it further and further back. Like imagine it's, it's a hundred meter race, right? There's just a sprint, an outright sprint. And one of the contestants in the race is like a mile away when the, when the gun sounds. There is no way for you to catch up and then advance in order to meet, to get to your goal. Uh, and the LDS understanding of atonement Is that essentially God brings you back up to the starting point so that you can, because I actually have a pretty similar understanding of God's wrath, I think. What God does is he brings you through Jesus back up to the starting line so that everybody starts in the same place and now you have a fair chance to run. The biblical concept of propitiation or atonement is that God snaps his fingers and because of Christ, you're already standing, you're not even finishing the race, you're already standing on the podium And Christ has his arm around you and he's giving you a hug and he's hanging his gold medal around your neck. Um, you didn't even run the race. And if you had tried to run the race, you'd still be a mile and a half away. Not even like tripping and falling before you even make it into the stadium. Um, versus trying to run a race yourself and get there fast enough to be. Yeah. Well, well said, and I really like that illustration, Charlie. And, you know, as I think of this, um, I love to take Latter-day Saints to, um, The great day of atonement and this Hebrew word that you've been referencing, the word kapur. Um, so on, in the, the holy of holies is the kaporet, which is the mercy seat. Which is the cover of the Ark of the Covenant. And that's where the word Yom Kippur, um, the Kippurit idea comes from. And so that great day of appeasement of the wrath of God. And the only way that that took place was not that God brought me back to the starting line. It's that the sinless son of God bled and died in my place and gave me his righteousness. To give me eternal victory over sin, death, and hell. And so I don't want to spend time right now unpacking the entire way in which I love to walk. Latter-day Saints through the temple or the tabernacle all the way into that holy of holies on the day of Yom Kippur, the day of atonement to really show them That's where this word comes from. It's not just this easy peasy word of, oh, Jesus wakes us all up from the dead. No, there was a lot more that was involved in here, a lot more that was necessary. And I also would, uh, point out that that sound, it's like a disappointing idea to a lot of Mormons. Like, wait, I don't even get to run in the race. Like an analogy like that. I don't even get to run in the race. Like, why bother with the stadium? Why? It sounds so cheap to them. Um, but again, it's the, uh, once you understand your condition, like, I don't have any arms and legs and you tell me to run a race. Like I. You're dead. Yeah. The pavement's on fire. You're dead. And all of a sudden you're alive again. Um, and you've got the gold medal wrapped, the gold medal of eternal life together with God wrapped around your neck and you're standing there with Christ. Um, we need to have a better understanding of what our condition really is. Um, in order to have a true appreciation for the atonement or propitiation that's been done on our behalf. But the cool thing, though, with atonement and biblical Christianity is you still get all of that purpose that the LDS folk will feel like, oh, my purpose is to be tested and to progress and to try, like you said, like they want to run the race. Um, and we Christians, we still get to do that in a sense. Like Paul talks about running the race, but now it's no longer to get to the finish line. You're already past the finish line. Like you said, and you're just running for fun. Like you're just enjoying The park that's at the other end of the finish line. You still get to have that progress and that purpose of, you know, progressing and serving the Lord and worshiping in all these different ways, but now there isn't conditions attached onto it. It's just the way for you to Live your spiritual life, this gift that God has given you. So just because you're already at the finish line, that doesn't mean there's no purpose for you. You get both. You can have both. You can already have the gold medal in your hand and still have the Fulfilling purpose of quote-unquote running the race. You get both with Christ. I got a lot more than I bargained for with atonement there. Thank you. I learned a lot. Okay. How about repentance? So. It seems like we should be similar with repentance, but we're not. Explain repentance. Uh, repentance much like the Catholic view is a process where it's not necessarily like there's a moment of a change like the Bible talks about circumcise your hearts. Uh, but in LDS, it's a process where you have to recognize Christ's atonement. You have to acknowledge your wrongdoing and, uh, Wrongdoing, sin is, is kind of different to an LDS theology as opposed to like, is it just a little transgression or is it a sin or is it your status as a dead man walking? Uh, contrition is a part of it too. And so if it's a really bad oopsie, you have to go to your bishop and confess it. Uh, if it's lesser so, again, they have like these degrees of transgressions and sin, then that can just be confessed to God. Doctrine and Covenants fifty-eight means, says true repentance means never repeating the sin again. And whenever possible, you must make amends. So there's that Catholic idea of penance. Recompense for your transgression. Uh, so it's, it's an ongoing process, uh, that can lead to impenitence might lead to excommunication or kicked out of the church apostasy, uh, would call for such a thing. Then, uh, I think the best way to talk about repentance from a biblical standpoint is to go to the story of the two sons and the merciful father. Because there you see the process, the plan that the younger son has of repentance. He's like, all right, I'm not going to be a part of the family anymore. I'm just going to be a worker. And I'm just going to work and at least that way I'll get some Grace, I'll get some benefits, but that was his plan. This is where the beautiful reality of the gospel comes. What's the response of Heavenly Father? Not, okay, you can become a slave and work on the outside of my house, but no, take my ring, take my coat, take my sandals, take my hand. And welcome home. And there's the beautiful picture of what repentance should lead to. It's that realization that you have been forgiven by Christ. Can you tell me what repentance is in one sentence? Well, pretend I'm Mormon. Now tell me what repentance is biblically with just a single sentence. I think it is a circumcision of the heart. It's a feeling of contrition where in your heart you feel sorry and turn from your way. I want to build on what John was saying with the parable of the prodigal son and how Latter-day Saints look at that and say, well, he still had to do something. He had to turn around and so much of that story is about the two ways of life where you're either finding hope, purpose, Meaning a sense of salvation in the things you do or in the things you do for yourself. Um, the things you're trying to do for God or the things you're trying to do for yourself to find happiness. And I, I build on that with repentance and really say that ultimately repentance is acknowledging that my ways are Are not God's ways that my desires are not God's desires. And as I look at my life, it's coming to an acknowledgement. That I am not the answer, that I do not have the ability. Maybe to give you this simple sentence now, Molly, often I'll say it's turning from trust in myself and in my ways of doing things And trusting in God and his way of bringing about eternal life for me. So turning from myself in so many ways to turning to him. Like how you keep turn in there that helps me think about what I'm turning from. Yeah. Okay. Maybe, maybe one final thing to really think about that in, in repentance as. Christians, this is sometimes misunderstood too, that not only are we repenting of the grievous Sins that we have committed, but also of our own self-righteousness. All of those times where we think that we have become The means to our own eternal life and through our good works to can separate us just as much. So we have to repent of all of our good works that we're trying to do for all of the wrong reasons as well. And I know that kind of makes your mind hurt a little bit, but how many times in that story specifically, the The older son was doing good things for his father, but he was doing them for all of the wrong reasons. And he too needed to be brought to repentance. That's ultimately what Jesus is trying to do in that story is lead the. Not the sinners and tax collectors. They've already turned to him in repentance. They've turned from their ways and turned towards him, but he's getting the Pharisees who are boasting in their own righteousness to turn from their own righteousness to the only one that can give them true righteousness. Hey, how about the word gospel? What do LDS mean? What do Christians mean? So the gospel is one, I might be able to say a little bit about it, but I'll, I need some support because this one is, um, ethereal for me with the LDS understanding. But at least in Christian circles, the way we will commonly break it down is gospel means good news. That's kind of the Greek word, oiangelion, kind of means that good news. And that's how we can explain it, you know, to like a Christian prospect or something. That doesn't really help at all in this particular discussion because now it's, okay, what do you mean by good news? Our version of good news is probably a lot different than what the LDS person would say good news is. So, um, this, I'm reading off of the, uh, uh, topics. They just define words online on the LDS website. The gospel is our heavenly father's plan of happiness. And later it says, in its fullness, the gospel includes all the doctrine, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. Um, and then it goes on a little bit, but just reading off of that, you know, it's a super general word just talking about everything LDS. Um, Exaltation's in there, obedience, that kind of thing. So then in my interaction speaking with people, I don't really hear them use it all that much except just to talk about, you know, we obey the laws of the gospel and then they move on to say what that means. Um, So it's not really something I've found too much difficulty in because most of the time, both of us just avoid the word because again, it's, it's kind of a broad category for them. Um, for us, it's like I said, it's good news. It's Christ saying, hey, you get to live with God forever. I did this good stuff for you. You don't have to anymore. And I usually find that just avoiding the word gospel and describing the truths in concrete terms is a little easier. But I'd love other people to jump in on the LDS understanding or how we can use it. I appreciated that list that you read directly off the website because that's often they will refer to it as the laws and ordinances of the gospel, which just makes your mind hurt a little bit when we use law and gospel in the same way there. Um, I, I think. What the average Latter-day Saint is viewing the gospel is as is everything that I need to know and And do in order to progress through the plan of happiness into the celestial kingdom. So a lot of it really does contain this sense of a knowledge of things that I need to. To figure out, um, that's why they go back to the temple over and over again. They think they're going to learn something new about the gospel when they go there. And it's not like we Christians where we say we want to learn more about the gospel where we're just diving deeper. And deeper and deeper into the depths of what God has done for us. But it's almost as if there's something out there that I still need to know that's going to be that thing that helps me make the next step and the next step and the next step in order to receive full exaltation. And so that's how I'm starting to hear it more and more as it's the right knowledge that I need to acquire in order to figure out this path. In previous podcasts, I've talked about how often the plan of salvation as I'm looking at it is like playing a video game where you just can continue to work at it and work at it and work at it and work at it until you pass the level flawlessly. And then you move on to the next level and you learn and you learn and you learn and then you pass that level flawlessly. And so the gospel is almost like the roadmap or like the cheat codes in how to accomplish that quicker. And better so that ultimately you can pass all of the levels and achieve a full sense of perfection that is required for exaltation in the celestial kingdom. So it's almost just like If somebody handed you the cheat book and said, here you go, here's how to finish the game. And now you still have to go and do it. You still have to learn it. You still have to practice it, but it's been given to you. That's how I'm starting to articulate the gospel. It's the cheat code book that's been provided rather than the good news that it's been done for you. You almost sound like a gamer. Yeah, and Molly knows I'm not a gamer at all, so... Well, it was, it's hard to conceptualize that they mean such a different thing with the word gospel because in my brain law and gospel are basically opposites. This is law says this is what you need to do. Gospel, this is what is. Done. Um, so yeah, it's a bit of a learning curve there. We have covered a lot of words and we didn't even cover all the words. So before we jump into our game. Final exercise. Yes. It's probably not going to be that much fun, but we'll see. But anyways, before we do that, uh, are there other words that you guys are thinking this is an important one when we didn't cover it yet? I feel like one thing to mention is just the concept of who Jesus is because I feel like if you talk about like what Jesus has done for me like that's just a different idea too of the idea that Like, Jesus is my savior versus Jesus is my substitute. And I feel like that's someplace I like to go a lot talking to people is like, who is Jesus primarily for you? Because if... A lot of the times when they say, well, we both believe in Jesus, like we don't believe the same things. So Jesus isn't someone I look up to who has shown me the way to progress and he's not someone who just suffered pain. For me so that I can be resurrected like Jesus is God and he's the one who has done everything in my place so that now I can have eternal life. I really appreciate that grace that sometimes we need to come back to what's at the center of it all, um, the person and work of Jesus Christ. I usually start by asking them to describe for me who Jesus is. And then I'll say, hey, I'm really appreciative of your description of him and how you understand your relationship. Can I share mine now? And that's If I can leave a conversation just pointing to a proper understanding of who Jesus is, that that's a win as far as giving them something to chew on. A pair of words that I might add, um, depending on what corner of Christendom you're coming from, you might be very familiar with justification and sanctification. Those are kind of two sides of doctrine and stuff. Um, justified, you know, declared righteous before God made perfect. It's that same kind of idea. Whereas sanctification describes the life of a Christian after you've been justified. Um, And so, you know, you might get really technical and say, is this a justification passage or a sanctification passage and break all that kind of stuff down. Um, in my experience, Latter-day Saints just don't really use those words. So in some ways they're, they're quote unquote safer than some of these other ones we've been talking about, because now you don't have to worry about as much about, okay, what baggage is required. associated with this word in this person's mind I'm speaking with, you sort of just say, hey, you've never heard this word before. Let me define it for you for the first time. And then you can go to something in Galatians or Romans or whatever that talks about justification. And have a little, a good fruitful discussion there. Um, so yeah, those words just less so a difference between us and the LDS theology and more so a gap in LDS theology that you can maybe fill or supplement in using these words. Really, really appreciate that, Calvin, and several of our Jesus is Enough interviewees had mentioned to me that it was when a Christian Had described biblical justification and sanctification and use those words to help them understand the difference and the way in which God is working in both of them, but they're two very unique things. That it really started to help them see some of the differences between biblical Christianity and Mormonism because it used words that they were unfamiliar with, that they didn't have that baggage with already. Yeah, I find myself almost exclusively using, um, passages that talk about justification when I'm trying to communicate, uh, salvation. Um, for the exactly that reason, like Kelvin said, it's a good chance to just define the word and often Um, I won't even wait and ask. I'll just say justification and then a parentheses explain exactly what I mean by that. Awesome. Those are good tips. Good ideas. Okay, it's time to play, I don't know, I don't have a good name for our game, as in fix my wording. Improve my wording, yeah. Yeah. Be my editor. Does that sound fun? Well, Molly, you do this a lot for us here at Truth in Love. In a lot of our writing, you're the one that always will say, hey, remember who you're talking to. You can't use that phrase or that word quite in that way. Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to give you a phrase that you're like, yeah, that sounds great, but it won't be great because it'll be confusing for the listening Mormon. So you are going to fix it. How would you reword it so that the listening Mormon would understand what you intend to communicate? Okay. So phrase number one, because of the atonement, I will go to heaven. How would you say it better? Because of what Jesus did, his perfect life, his death for my sins, and his resurrection, I am completely forgiven and certain that I will be with God forever. Nice. I am saved by grace. I will live with God forever because of his action alone. I like it. Unbelievers will go to hell. Unbelievers are damned. I mean, it's not usually a witnessing phrase, but it's still a truth. Unbelievers will be separated from God eternally. I believe in the gospel of Jesus. I believe that what the Bible says about Jesus is true. Um, and what the Bible says about Jesus is that he was my substitute. And because of what he has done, uh, because of his substitutionary atonement in my place, um, I now am already righteous in God's eyes. Um, and there's nothing left for me to do. Jesus died for your sins so that you can have eternal life. Jesus took your sins upon himself and paid the full price for them. And because of that, God is satisfied and he offers us complete forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift. Jesus is my savior. I might say Jesus is my God who brought me from separation from him and back into unity with him or something. It's kind of hard to say it concisely, but It is. That's, it just takes so much practice. And so I appreciate how fast you guys are answering these. Oh, doing a great job. Yeah. Um, next one. I am confident I will go to heaven. I am confident that because of Jesus's perfect life and death for me that I will live with Heavenly Father eternally. You don't have to do anything to be saved. Everything which must happen, which is required to happen in order for me to spend eternity together with God and to be righteous in God's sight has already been done for me. Repent and believe and you will be saved. Stop looking at yourself. Stop trusting in yourself. Your works. Look up to Jesus alone. I love it. This one's hard because I'm quoting a Bible passage from James. Faith without works is dead. Maybe give me a little background. Let's quote this all the time. Yeah, so I will usually maybe state this in the negative when explaining like what does it mean that faith without works is dead. Nobody who has seriously understood what it actually means that Jesus has saved you and given you eternal life will do anything other than worship and give thanks to him. In other words, it's impossible, it's absurd to think that somebody would have faith in this act that Christ did and then seriously conclude, now I can do whatever I want. That's absurd. Then you have clearly, you've shown that you haven't understood what Jesus did. Your faith is dead. Yeah, in my experience, often when someone quotes that passage, they're saying faith and works are the same. And it's not what the passage says, but yeah. That's good. Thank you, Calvin. Okay, the last one is kind of loaded. Uh, so Mark, I'm going to kick it to you because we just talked about this the other day. Uh, the phrase is, I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. You want just my simple way of saying this instead? Oh, it's loaded. I want you to cover it all the things. Yeah, so this is a fairly common phrase in Christendom is that we need to do something and it's to accept the gift that has been given that that is our part in it and. As soon as one says that, a Latter-day Saint's gonna say, see, we told you that you have to do something. That's a work right there. And that's gonna get us into trouble. And so, as I think about... The work that Christ has done for me. It's even that gift of faith is that word that I just used there, a gift. And I'm never going to boast or pride or even Acknowledge my part in receiving that gift. Um, I was dead in my trespasses and sins. God had to make me alive through the work of the Holy Spirit. Bring me into a relationship where I no longer trust in myself and my works, but trust in him instead. And so I want to avoid in as many ways as possible, not Adding a new work that Mormons are gonna be equally confused by. When it comes to a gift, I have never met anyone That goes around boasting about I was willing to receive this amazing gift my grandparents gave me at Christmas. And therefore, I am partially responsible for this gift being in my life. We don't talk like that when it comes to simple temporal gifts like that. And so I just say let's avoid that too when it comes to discussing the most incredible gift that has ever been given. And focus on the gift and the giver rather than on the recipients or the reception of it so much. Others, what would you add to that? I would just say Job nineteen uh, one of the great testimonies of faith from a man who has suffered more than any of us. Oh, that my words were recorded. That they were written on a scroll. That they were inscribed with an iron tool on lead. Or engraved in a rock forever. I know that my Redeemer lives and that in the end he will stand on the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh, I will see God. I myself will see him. I am not another. How my heart yearns within me. I'm happy those words were recorded. Amen. Breaking about Jesus, not himself, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's just one of those things that gets repeated in Christendom a lot and we don't even stop and think about what it could be communicating to someone outside of Christendom. And that it doesn't sound like Jesus did it all. It sounds like I did a little bit. So yeah, it's those little things. Think about it. Um, this was awesome guys. And I just, I want to encourage the witnessing Christian. Uh, this takes practice. And we are always checking each other and helping each other out as we're communicating and thinking, okay, how can I do communicate better? So don't feel bad if this is hard and frustrating. It just, it just is. And it takes practice and you're going to get better. Um, and this is actually a fabulous way to learn more about, um, Who God is and what he's done for you because you're being forced to use different words. Yeah, thank you, Molly. And, and I, it's, it's great to see after, I don't know, what are we, eight months into this internship with three of you and a few months with Grace, but Grace has been doing this a lot longer too. Uh, just, you're starting to, to really speak the Mormon language. And I can see that both in your heads as well as in your hearts, this is becoming part of your heart language too. And so I think that's one of the things that we really want to help the witnessing Christian do is to be loving in this and to be curious in our conversations. Maybe that's one thing that you can listen to us. Give our definitions and our explanation of what these words mean as far as we understand them. But now go out and have these conversations with your Latter-day Saint friends, with the missionaries, with the person that you sit at the lunch table with and ask them. What these words mean and hear it directly from their lips and then respond with the biblical truths that you do know and be bold in your proclamation of those incredible gifts from God. But again, listen and then respond. So that's it. That's pillar number four. Speak the Mormon language. Next week will be proclaim Christ rather than debate Mormons. Oh, that's a tough one. Can't wait to talk about that one. All right. See you then. Thanks everyone. Bye.