Five Pillars for Speaking the Truth in Love to Mormons: Pillar 5

Welcome to another episode of the Witnessing Christ Podcast! In this session, we wrap up our journey through the Five Pillars of relational evangelism by focusing on the fifth and final pillar: "Proclaim Christ Rather Than Debate Mormonism."

Mark, Molly, Grace, Charlie, Jon, and Calvin share thoughtful reflections, personal stories, and practical advice about how to resist the temptation to win arguments and instead point people to Jesus. It's easy to get caught in endless back-and-forths about Joseph Smith, modern prophets, or doctrinal differences—but what changes hearts isn’t debate; it’s the gospel.

Together, the team explores how to listen for deeper spiritual needs, redirect conversations toward Christ, and trust in the power of God’s word to break through even the hardest hearts. From real-life examples to Scripture-based encouragement, this episode helps equip you to be a witness—not a lawyer—and to proclaim the sufficiency of Jesus with clarity and love.

For more on TILM's Five Pillars, visit tilm.org/our-witnessing-approach.

To watch and listen to Pastor Mark's sermon on the Woman at the Well, please visit https://youtu.be/kp-TLWRDLW0.

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Transcript

5th_pillar

00:00:00 Unknown: Welcome back to the Witnessing Christ podcast. Today I am with Mark, Grace, Calvin, Charlie, and John. Hello, everyone. Hello. Molly. Hello. And we have finally made it to the fifth pillar about how to witness to Mormons. We have our five pillars that our approach is based off of. So just a little review. Number one, see Mormons as victims and not enemies. Two, treat Mormons with genuine love and respect. Three, focus on Mormon stress points. Four, speak the Mormon language. And finally today, witness Christ rather than debate Mormonism. So Mark, you want to give us a little update on what that all means. Thanks Molly. Yeah, this one is probably one of the most difficult ones of the five pillars to put into practice because so often Latter-day Saints want to debate Mormonism with us. They have been taught how to engage in Kind of apologetic Mormon conversations where they are serving as Mormon apologists trying to defend their faith. And so from early on in their lives, they are prepared to debate Mormonism with Christians. We have found though that being roped into those debates often does not lead to valuable conversations because you are focusing only on what's wrong with Mormonism and not with what's right. About biblical Christianity and more specifically the gospel of Jesus Christ and the sufficiency of his crucifixion for us. Um, over the years, I think this is one where. No matter how well prepared I am for a situation or a scenario, there are just times, whether it's in person or online, That I am being compelled or being pulled into a debate and I have to resist at times with every fiber of my prayerful being to say, no, I could sit here for. The next two hours and play a Mormon game of whack-a-mo where they're gonna present to me twenty different Mormon topics that maybe I could knock down. In one way or another, but then just another one's going to pop up and another one's going to pop up. And if I never actually take the time and focus on proclaiming Christ to them, I will have left that conversation with them in no better place really than where it began. Uh, we need to make sure that at some point we stop focusing on. What's wrong with Mormonism and show the genuine, real article of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I really find that, um, it's unnecessary to focus on what's wrong with Mormonism because we don't need to, the internet will do that for them. If I've had that conversation before with folks, like. I don't need to pull this apart for you. They'll say, ah, no, I can defend the Book of Mormon, all these things. And like, you can search that on your own. I'm not going to waste my time when the internet can destroy your faith in the Book of Mormon. But, yeah, talking about Jesus, that's what we need to do because, um, I think the percentage of folks who leave Mormonism, isn't it like, uh, 70% turn to atheism? Is that, am I getting that right? Do you remember? Yeah, and and ever increasing numbers we're seeing. So just this week, we stumbled across a kind of a map based website where people were able to pin on a map. Where they lived when they left Mormonism and then why they left Mormonism. Of the 22,000 pins on that map, I didn't look at all 22,000 of them by the way. But the vast majority, if I, if I looked at a hundred of them, ninety-seven of them were based on kind of a history of the church, a history of Joseph Smith, a cultural thing within Mormonism was why they left. But not a one of them that I read really focused on like I left Mormonism because I was seeking after the truth. I, or I, I followed the truth into biblical Christianity and Maybe there's another website where people have pinned in that way. But this just emphasizes to us that just knocking out the foundation of the Book of Mormon and a trust in Joseph Smith Is not enough. We need to rebuild that foundation on Christ and the Bible. And one of the Bible verses that really helps me just focus on this. This core value or this key pillar is from Paul's words in Romans one sixteen where he says that We need to focus on the power. The gospel, he says, is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes first for the Jew and then for the Gentile. And the word in that that I think is so important is the word gospel. We've got a bunch of seminarians here. What's the Greek word? Sorry, the word gospel and power. What's the Greek word for power? Gospel is oiangelion or ouangelion, but what about power? What's the Greek word here? Dunamis, dunamis, dynamis. Yeah, dynamite. So the gospel, the good news of God is the dynamite that is there for us to use and how often Do we fail to make use of the dynamite to break open these stole stone cold hearts that are rejecting the gospel? And you thought I was gonna say stone cold Steve Austin there, didn't you? No, cold stony hearts. And how many people does this apply to? This applies to everyone. Everyone who believes has to hear the gospel at some point. So such an important concept to keep in connection that we trust in the power of God's word here. Well, do you guys have some examples of, um, how you got pulled into debates and how that went and maybe how you transitioned to proclaiming Christ? Yeah, I had a conversation with the guy, uh, in Arizona. I believe his name was Bob. Um, this is the day after we went to the temple and he was, it was kind of a slow morning and he was one of the guys who was actually really enthusiastic to talk. He was excited to talk, uh, Doctrine, which is a great thing to hear on like, was it a Wednesday morning? Um, and we went all over the place. Uh, talking about why did it started with why did Paul rebuke Peter so harshly in Galatians? And then, uh, which was nice because it was trying to, I was trying to steer it towards the gospel, but we ultimately ended up talking about, um, Ordinance, uh, doctrines and covenants. We ended up talking about, um, the Trinity in the Old Testament and the LDS view of the Godhead and all of these things, uh, Are brilliant to look at, but the point of us knocking on the door was to present the gospel, because like you said, mark that is where the power is to change hearts it's not. In the law, it's in the gospel. There is a distinction there. Uh, so. The conversation kind of kept going anyways. Uh, wasn't really able to go back to where I wanted naturally, you know, it was kind of in the flow of conversation. You're always trying to look for the most natural way to, uh, proceed. Because that's the most gripping I feel like. Um, but yeah, it kind of was just, you know, we were just flexing our intellectual muscles. We were just showing how much we know about teachings and history and we weren't letting the word work. John, I really appreciate the word that you used there naturally and I think that's the struggle with this pillar sometimes is Someone wants to engage in an intellectual exercise with us that is going in one specific direction and we Can quickly realize what direction that this is going to go in and we want to go in a different direction, but we also don't want it to just seem disrespectful. By completely ignoring certain questions or certain paths that the conversation appears to naturally being going in to take it in the direction we want it to go in. Have any of you experienced that where like, how do you figure out how to make it more natural? Yeah, I have a story just like that. Um, it was a guy, we were interacting online for three or four weeks, probably. And it got to a point where pretty much no matter what I was saying, The reply would be, oh, well, we have modern prophets, so we can interpret those passages differently. I would say I'd, you know, give a law gospel presentation, maybe base it off of a bit of the word of God, and he would have like this trump card of just denying Whatever I was saying, because the modern prophets can reinterpret it. And so it doesn't matter what the Bible says. And so then I thought, you know, it just kept happening, kept happening. And then I Kind of said, all right, well, maybe I'll engage with that line of thinking a little bit, put a stone in the shoe and hopefully wrap it back up. Long story short, it took about two weeks to finally wrestle with. Okay, can prophets just change previous doctrine? Can they just change the way something's been interpreted? Um. And you know, and I, I, we're putting hypotheticals of like, what if tomorrow they got this or that revelation that was completely different than what you believe now? Like, you know, just trying to get them to see some of the issues there and I was hoping It would just kind of be a quick thing and then I could bring it back to, okay, Christ is better. He's consistent. He's the foundation. We don't have to worry about prophets that may change their mind. But we never really got there because he... You know, obviously it got a little more argument, argumentative, and then you kind of resist at every step. If somebody is trying to put like a hypothetical to you or walk you through a series of questions, if you're in a debate of mindset, you're not going to go along with that. Um. And then I guess I can't remember exactly, but I think that we've, we ended that line of thinking, I think a day or two went by and then I just kind of re-engaged with a new, a new thought and just said, all right, well, let's just go over here then. That clearly didn't work. Um, so I guess sometimes, you know, if it's really not going somewhere, it may be easier for an online conversation. It could be good just to wait a little bit and then just start something new. Um, That's what ended up happening in that situation. Conveniently forget the last question that was asked. Is that what you were saying? Yeah. Yeah, or if there wasn't a question and he just said it, I think he just said something. I waited a day or two and then said, all right, well, you said this a while ago. Let's talk about that again, like something like that. If I could just share one more thing. That's the conversation I'm having with a friend of mine, Mason, on Facebook for like the last. I don't know how many months like we've just been talking back and forth at each other and like he's saying things that sound good, but I know that he's not getting fully what I'm trying to do. To convey to him and the danger that I face as I do that. And I think that we all have to wrestle with it is this hubris of like, uh, overconfident arrogance, uh, Um, that is just part of our sinful nature. It's that pride that like we want to win in a debate or in even like a gospel presentation that can come across as I want to win. Win as opposed to this is somebody Christ died for and what a miraculous thing that is alone. Um. And so, yeah, I just don't know what to do with this guy. I ended up sending him one of the resources from Jesus is enough. I said, please watch this and tell me what you think. And hopefully that can reorient our conversation so I can try to present the gospel again. John, that's so well said there that that idea of deep inside of us, we all want to win this. We talked about that in previous conversations as well. And I think that's where. We need to remember that in these conversations, we are not called to be lawyers. We are called to be witnesses. The work of the convincing ultimately is up to the work of the Holy Spirit through God's word. And we are called to declare what we know with confidence about what we have seen and heard of Jesus Christ. And that's different than winning like a lawyer in a conversation where we rationally present all of the arguments and then we're like, hey, mic drop, look, you have to believe this. That's not our job. Our job is to show them Jesus. Yeah, I think the other side of that too is recognizing that um, the people we are talking to, and this goes for Mormons and anyone else who is an unbeliever to whom we want to witness with the gospel, they're not a neutral... Entity with a clean slate. Um, they are, they already have, um, beliefs and they already have put their trust in something and they already have, um, Made something their God, um, before this conversation begins. Um, and so, um, It's not just a, like pastor just said, it's not just a listing of facts. Um, our faith is not just a, uh, uh, faith is not just a knowledge of who Jesus is and what he's done or what the Bible says. Faith is my putting my trust in my Savior, which is Jesus. And so a lot of times what we find, I think, actually, Kelvin and I were talking about this before class this morning on the way into the building. Um, but Kelvin shared a video just in our group chat yesterday of a, of a really, really like wildly intelligent man, um, who puts out a lot of Mormon content. Um, who put out a video, it's a short video where he makes his argument and um, he is so convincing and he's so convinced that he's right. And he's just got a massive blind spot. And he's, he's more intelligent than I, maybe not more intelligent than Kelvin, but more intelligent than me. Um, and uh, like, there's just historical and logical fallacies throughout the thing. And if he was talking about any other subject, he'd be the first one to point out those logical fallacies, to point out those issues in his own argument. But in this case, when he's talking about his faith, he refuses to do that. And you could talk for days about why that is. Uh, ultimately it's the devil is good at what he does and he has convinced God. This man, um, of something other than the truth. And so listing all bunch of facts for this guy would never change his mind. What might possibly, um, change his mind. Is a presentation of the gospel that says, look, man, you don't have to be, you don't have to live under guilt anymore. It's all been taken away. The other thing that popped into my mind as John was talking actually is what often happens online when we're having these conversations and discussions and things. Um, is we will bump into. Particularly young men, but actually I've got an older lady right now who's doing the exact same thing to me. And they, like Pastor said, they've been well-trained. And so they've got like a six-shooter full of silver bullets that they've been taught are just going to like... If they unload them all into a Christian, then the Christian's faith will fall apart and then we'll be able to convert them to Mormonism. And it's the exact same thing on their side that I was just talking about on the Christian side, right? Here's the magic bullets. If you put all six of these into a Christian, they have no defenses left and they'll be convinced that what we say is true. Um, and so just like recognizing the reason we try and educate ourselves on what the LDS believes is not so that we can, you know, Play risk with them and take all their territory and claim it for Christ. It's because we want to know what those silver bullets are going to be. So that we can just move on and get to the goods, which is the gospel, because ultimately my arguments are not the thing that changes hearts. The powerful thing that's at work here is the word of God and the word of God is what works faith. Uh, the spirit works through his word. And that is what's going to change hearts, not my own ability to, um, to make the proper argument. And I am the greatest of sinners when it comes to hubris and arguing. So, um, If I can learn it, anybody can learn it. Not that I have already done this. Yeah. Charlie, that's towards the goal. Learn how to be unapologetically Lutheran. Charlie, those are some good connections there to some of our previous pillars, including speaking the Mormon language, where We don't ultimately learn to speak the Mormon language so that we can have our own new silver bullets or how to defend all those, but so that when we're speaking, We speak in such a way that we can communicate clearly so that when we are sharing messages, they don't misinterpret them, right? Right before we started recording this, we were talking about An individual that said, well, I've never heard a Christian say that before. And it's something that was very common that we share all the time. And the fact that this Mormon had never heard a Christian say this certain thing means that we as Christians are not articulating our gospel messages clearly enough. I appreciate the, um, the acknowledgement that an unbeliever doesn't have a neutral heart. An unbeliever has a heart of stone and that just makes that dynamite, uh, the dynamite of the gospel, uh, really come to the Come to life and make sense that the only way that a heart of stone is going to change is if the gospel blows it up. Um, and the, the Bible has, um, quite a few promises about its power and I know you guys are ready to share some of those promises with us and give us some encouragement. Help us to trust the Bible all the more. Okay, so one of those is from Hebrews four chapter four verse twelve It says, for the word of God is alive and active, sharper than any double-edged sword. It penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It judges the thoughts and the attitudes of the heart. I think something cool about this is it's talking about how the word of God's alive. It's not something dead that we need to like reanimate and add our own. Spins and takes on to make it effective like God's word is effective as it is like God is speaking through his word. And it's, it has the law and the gospel, that double-edged sword, to show us where we're falling short so that it can turn us to Jesus. It works to convict us and then to lead us to our Savior. Grace, I love that, that we don't have to come up with something new or novel or some like new way of putting a spin on a portion of God's word. No, like call it what it is and let it do its work. Love it. Another verse, um, that comes to mind, this, this one is probably one of the more famous Bible verses, uh, Romans ten seventeen Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message and the message is heard through the word about Christ. Um, in context, Paul is talking about like what faith is and what it means. Um, a few verses earlier, it's talks. He says, if you declare with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Uh, for you believe with your heart and you're justified. Um, and that doesn't matter if you're Jew or Gentile or what your background is, what matter is this faith. And so the question is, well, how do I get this faith? I want this faith that justifies me. And he says it's from hearing the message. It's from reading the word. Um, this word is powerful to give you this justifying thing. Um, it's blind to race or background or anything. It's just this powerful word that comes out and gives you this faith that Is unilaterally saves you without your input. Um, so it's just really emphasizing the power of the word. And so, yeah, something to lean on and let's be those messengers to, to go out and, and, and proclaim it. All right. Yeah, I'd like to talk about John 1717 because I was thinking, actually today I was in a conversation with some of my classmates talking about cryptocurrency. Uh, and the dangers of, uh, what does it mean to, to throw your money online and, uh, Why isn't there gold attached to it? You know, it's a trust-based system, uh, crypto. And actually, so is the money that we spend right now, the dollars that we, it's like, what is it, a credit? I'm not fully knowledgeable in this business. Actually, I told the president of the seminary I'm numerically challenged because I just can't take it seriously. Numbers just don't really mean, but that's besides the point. Sanctify them by truth. Your word is truth. The only currency that holds any weight as we interact with fellow humans is trust. I am going to say something to you trusting that you will listen to me. And, uh, what God says to us is his word is truth. And so. What is the standard for truth? Nothing but what is found in God's word because we know that in the beginning was the word and the word was with God again. And the word was God. Uh, and, and so it's really the point that I'm trying to make is it's not necessarily that You know God. Like, good for you. You know him. You thought about him. No. The point of the Bible is that God thought of you. And he came for you and he speaks to you through his word. And, uh, as soon as that truth gets caught. Uh, then it's almost like you're in the light. It's like the gates have been opened to you. You are no longer shrouded by. The dark things that maybe it's hubris, maybe it's arrogance, maybe it's selfish ambition, maybe it's a sin that you can't get over. All of a sudden now, you know that the truth is Will set you free that it's not up to what you know. It's not up to what you say. It's what God says to you. It's how God knows you individually and personally. And it's not, it's not your truth either, right? Like, it's not a subjective thing. It's something objective. And it just simply is whether you like it or not. Um, which I think ties in really well with first Peter one twenty-three which I was thinking about, it's, it's more of the seed analogy, right? Um, But, well, what one Peter 1.23 says, uh, for you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable through the living and enduring word of God. It's not a question about, like, what's going on in the hearts of these people. We know. What's going on in the hearts of these people and what's going on in my own heart? Um, seed has been sown and now it's sprouted and it is growing. Um, but what's true about seed? We don't make them grow. Like it doesn't matter how good of a gardener you are. It doesn't matter how great your green thumb is. It doesn't matter how much miracle grow you throw on it. You don't get to control the seed. You don't get to control which seeds sprout and which ones don't. You don't get to control how quickly they grow. You don't get to control really even where they sprout or when. Uh, you don't get to decide any of those things. It's something which only God determines and decides. And now Peter says, um, It is through the living and enduring word of God that these things have sprouted and now they grow. And so, I mean, it can be really frustrating when we're sharing the gospel, when things don't go the way we want them to. Um, but it's not you and I who make seeds grow. Um, we can't even make the seeds sprout and grow in our own hearts. Like it wasn't I who decided to believe by the time I recognized, oh, I believe that this is true. Faith had already been worked. So it's not trying to convince somebody to make a decision. It's not trying to convince anybody even of the truth. It is simply again and again presenting the Word of God because the Word of God is what makes seeds sprout and grow. It's what plants seeds. It's what makes seed sprout and grow. And it's the thing that feeds the seed as it grows into hopefully a mighty oak of righteousness. Um, but it's only the word of God that does that. You can't stand on the side and will it to grow. There's nothing you can do to make seeds grow. There's nothing you can even do to make yourself grow except feed it with the word. So keep feeding the people that we're evangelizing to with the word as well. I really like that picture, Charlie, of like a farmer never sits by his field thoroughly convinced that at this very instant or this very hour, a seed is going to eventually pop through the surface like. No matter how hard he works, he will not be able to do that, even if he is the perfect farmer. How much more so with the word of God, yeah, to trust in it. And you can just keep taking that and running with it, right? Like you can't tug on the tops of the plants a little bit and make them grow faster. You can't whisper lovely things in their ears to make like it just, there's nothing you can do to make the seed grow. I was thinking back to the stony hearts though in that, uh, have you ever kind of seen a tree, um, that is growing out of a rock? You know, a little seed fell into the crack of the rock. And over time it has grown and even split the rock apart. Um, God's word is just that powerful. Well, it might not seem like it's doing anything. That's a cool picture, but it's powerful. Well, and to hijack it one more time, you could even take that further and say, well, what's our job? Our job is those who are planting seeds is to also when we can prepare the field. Um, which is something that is, I mean, you ultimately can't make a, like a ledge of rock into a fertile field, but you can pull stones out of the way. You can work the soil. Um, you can do all the things to prepare. And it's good and wise to do that. But ultimately when the seed gets planted, it's the Lord of Roland who can make you grow. Yeah. Because it surpasses knowledge, right? It's like you can make your plan, but at the end of the day, it's not your power. It's the power of God. Uh, And then as you become rooted and established in that love. Then the whole time you're not really thinking about yourself. You're just grasping like Ephesians three, how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ. And to know that that love. Like I just said, surpasses knowledge. Yeah, and this, all this seed talk, I think it's important to point out, like, this isn't just us riffing on an analogy and like, oh, that sounds nice, right? Like, I mean, Jesus himself says... Pretty much verbatim all we're saying right now, like Mark chapter four. He has three, um, seed parables. I preached on this. That was my sermon last semester. So that's why it's fresh on my mind. But anyway. There's three seed parables back to back. The sower one's probably more familiar where he scatters it on the different kinds of soil. But then the other two, it's a guy plants it and then he goes about his business and then it grows though he does not know how. So just what you said, Charlie, like a farmer isn't sitting there watching it and trying to putz with it. He throws the seed and then walks away and sleeps and gets up and its seed sprouts and grows. And then, oh, hey, here we go. And the very next parable, Our seed parable talks about like the mustard seed is really small. The word seems so small and insignificant, but yet it's the largest of garden plants. Um, so yeah, we're not just riffing here on a fun analogy like, you know, Jesus. Jesus did that too. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's just a, yeah, it's a really good reminder. The word is a seed and God is the gardener. Um, and we're just the, the, the middleman. And that's not even a New Testament phenomena, right? Like Isaiah fifty-five verses ten and eleven says, as the rain and snow fall from heaven, um, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it blood and bud and flourish. So is my word that goes out from my mouth. It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve for the purpose for which I sent it. We didn't talk about that one yet, did we? No. No. It's the word of the Lord. The word of the Lord as it is sown will return to him having accomplished the purpose for which it was sent. Right? Um, the, no matter what seed analogy you want to use, it's still the Lord who makes it work. And the seed only has one, the seed only has one purpose for which it's sent. Um, and I guess in this case it's, it's the rain which is being sent. Um, but again, it's to make the world, the world bud and flourish and grow. It's the Lord himself who makes it grow. And the Lord speaks to us through his, through his word. I feel like that passage is really comforting to just that, you know, sometimes we think that we may have messed up our words, but it's really not about our words at all that it's accomplishing the purpose that God sent it out for and even if we've. Said what we think is the wrong thing. It's ultimately up to him. Mark, do you have any thoughts on how this relates to Jesus and the Samaritan woman by chance? Well, John, thanks for asking. I actually do. So John chapter four is. Actually, one of my favorite go-to's when it comes to not debating Mormonism with Mormons. So, uh, Jesus in that conversation with the Samaritan woman many times She tried to pull him into a debate. So I think the similarities between Mormonism and Samaritanism are Multi. Um, I've, I've got a whole sermon on this that will actually link to this. So you don't have to hear me riff on this for thirty minutes right now. You can do it at another time, but. I think the biggest one is just the love that Jesus had in not walking away from that conversation, just destroying her view of Samaritanism. He ultimately wanted her to have a relationship with him, the messiah that she was waiting for. And she wants to debate things like who has authority, which temple is the proper one. Um, how do we worship? And he ultimately just keeps rerouting her. She wants to talk about rules. He wants to talk about relationship and. If you've ever seen someone going back to your natural word, John, from earlier, Jesus just naturally takes it in that direction. So again, we'll link to that sermon on John four Um, maybe just the, the simple things to think about is even Jesus was even, even this woman was even trying to rope Jesus into a debate. And he had to resist taking that bait to debate Samaritanism with a Samaritan so that he could talk about true salvation. And he often has to do that through stories because it catches them completely off guard. Uh, you know, they, they're trying to find these secondary arguments and all of a sudden Jesus is talking about a lost coin. Or, uh, or living water in this instance. Yeah. Yeah. Why does he keep coming back to the water? The woman probably thought, aren't we done with the water? Nope. Well, it's interesting, too, to, like, just watch what Jesus doesn't even, like, introduce his own topic of conversation, like, as far as, like, let's talk about this doctrine instead. He just straight up, he doesn't do, he doesn't mess around at all. He just goes, where's your husband? Right. Uh, if you're not familiar with the story, if you're not familiar with the story, um, no woman. In her right mind or who is morally right with the community would be going to the well at that time of day. It's hot. There's a reason there's nobody at the well and she's sneaking out there at a time of the day where she doesn't want to interact with anybody else. And, um, Jesus, like, even if you don't have, even if you're not God and you can look into her backstory, uh, like Jesus probably did. Um, he probably knew something we wouldn't know, but you can still observe and look around and go, I think this is where that's coming from. And just ask the question. You know, when you're, I'm not saying you should ask where's your husband when you're talking to Mormons online, but like the question of like, well, why does, Why does this matter to you so much? Like, why do you keep asking me what, what I think about baptism? Like, why do you keep telling me what evangelicals think? I don't believe anything that you just said. Like, why is this such a big deal for you? Um, just asking that question is, We'll get you hopefully in a right direction where you can actually talk about the gospel. Charlie, I think that that leads into our next topic of a discussion really well and that's how as we're hearing topics that they might want to debate with us. How do we listen for what's actually underneath all of this? And so with the woman at the well, that's what Jesus was so adequate at doing was really addressing what's her real need under all of this. He uses the need for husbands, which showed that she had a hole in her heart that needed to be filled. And he's the only one that's truly going to fill it. But he goes about getting there in a really unique way. And I think as we do outreach to Mormons to just be listening and thinking to your mind, like, all right, they want to argue all of these different things, but what's actually underneath all of this? And what's the thing that I actually should be pulling at? What thread is underneath all of this? Mark, are you saying you want to play good idea, bad idea? I think that's a great idea. Okay, so the group knew this was coming, but um, we're gonna say some common phrases or debate topics that LDS have brought up with us. And then the group is going to give you some good ideas and some bad, but they're going to tell you which ones are the bad ideas or maybe they won't. Well, we'll see. Okay. So, um, Who's up first? We were kind of going around. Who wants to take the first one? You ready? All right. Calvin, Calvin, uh, he raised his hand. So here we go. Okay. We believe in grace, but we also believe we have to do our part. Good idea or bad idea, Calvin. I was, maybe we can cut this out. I was not raising my hand. I was, uh, I saw, I have something ready for like one or two later than that. I can try to riff, but if somebody else has something. Maybe I'll start with this one that's not even on the list of Uh, it's the second one on our list. What do you think about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith? Because this one is very common. Um, I've actually been in several conversations that were going extremely well. And then all of a sudden, this is the question that the Latter-day Saint asks me. How would you deal with that? I'll tell you how I... Have poorly dealt with it. One was an example of a young Latter-day Saint missionary that I sat on a plane with for two hours and we were talking across the aisle. And then the college age student sitting next to the missionary looked over and says, hey, you've talked a lot about the Bible, but I want to know what you think about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. And I was like, ah, I'd rather not. And then the missionary too said, yeah, I want to hear what you have to say. Well, I was a little too honest about my feelings and it just destroyed the conversation. So now all of you that have been doing this for like eight months now or more, um, how, if you had that opportunity now, how would you deal with that? Question. I, I usually say, um, I haven't, uh, like decided yet or something like that. Um, I'll point to. You know, if they really push me points like Deuteronomy thirteen or Galatians one, where basically, basically those, we don't have to get into the specifics of it, but there are two sections of scripture that talk to you about how. Um, it's the content of a prophet or a teacher's message that matters, not whether or not he performs miracles, not whether or not he makes you feel good or anything else, but the only thing that matters is the content. So I usually say. You know, I have, I'm neutral on it, but I'm worried about the content of what it has to say. So tell me what you think and let's, let's keep what, tell me what you think it says. And then I'll form my opinion, something like that. Cause then, then it kind of sifts away. Any historical discrepancies or whatever that they might expect you to get into and we're just back to all right now tell me what you think it teaches and let's stay there that my opinion of Joseph Smith and Book of Mormon is based off of what you think it says and so that's. Yeah, anyway. Yeah, and then how would we then shift from that conversation about Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith to proclamation of Christ? Have you ever thought through that? Well, usually then it's, then it's whatever they tell me they say it says, then it's kind of reacting to that statement. Um, whether it's a restoration of Jesus going to the Americas. Oh, what did he say when he said to these people in the Americas? Oh, he said this, that, the other thing. Like, oh, that's a little strange. I thought, I thought he said this and then here's what I believe. Um, yeah, it's kind of different every time depending on what part of the Book of Mormon that they want to tell me about after that question. Yeah, I have taken a page out of a friends, a Christian witnessing friends book where he will use the phrase restored gospel here. He'll say, well, as far as I understand it, Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon teaches a restored gospel, and I'm much more focused on The gospel that Jesus taught in the Bible and then boom transition quick and then say, here's what that gospel teaches. And I might do a compare and contrast and I'll say that the gospel that I'm reading in the Bible tells me that it's done, that Christ has finished the work for me that was necessary in order for me to be made right with Heavenly Father. As I read the restored gospel, it tells me that the work is not finished, that there is work that I still need to do. And I'll say as I listen to the messages of those two different books, they're not the same and leave them with that thought where I've shared some gospel, but also talked about their original question too. I've found myself leaning more into the prophecy angle a little bit. So, um, a lot of times, uh, Like when they, instead of debating Joseph Smith and all that, just say like, oh, like, oh, I'm familiar with it. I've read, um, most of it, um. I, there are some things about it that make me question that make me have questions or that I'm curious about or make me uncomfortable or whatever word I'm going to use. Um, and then even just sometimes say myself. Like, you guys believe that it's prophecy, right? Like, that this was received from a prophet and that all your teachings and things come from a modern prophet and use the answer is yes. And go, okay, so a prophet, um, a prophet speaks the words of God. Right. Uh, and the answer is yes. That's what a prophet does. Um, and then I'll say, okay, so what gives me pause or what challenges me about the book of Mormon is Is when I, and then usually I'll also ask like, and you also believe that the Bible is, is the word of God that was given to us through prophets and apostles. And the answer is usually yes. Again, not all LDS people believe the same thing, but, um, usually the answer is yes. And if the answer is no, then I, uh, usually talk about first Timothy or second Timothy three, um, I don't try and assert that, uh, the Bible is the only source of truth or any of that. All that will come as faith comes. Um, and they also reject the idea that the Bible is infallible, but that's not important for me to make my point. And my point is going to be, if these are the words of God and these are the words of God, they should agree with each other. And then that also gives me the opportunity to bring up things I want to talk about. So then I can say, for example, and then I'll, Uh, I'll, I'll go with, like last week we talked about how justification isn't really in their vocabulary. So I'll intentionally pluck a Bible passage about justification and throw it in there. Because one, usually they don't, again, have that silver bullet for a passage like that because it's not one of their buzzwords. Or whatever it might be. Like, I'll pull out a question. I want to talk about this. And my theory behind that is if it's the Word of God that does the work, if I can at least get them to read I'm going to make them read as much scripture as I possibly can just by suggesting teachings to them as something to be questioned or something that I... I'm not sure how this fits into what you're trying to tell me is true. So, um, how can it be that the Bible says this, and I understand it to mean this. But what you're telling me about the LDS is different than that. So how can that be? If nothing else, they've at least read the pure word of God and now have to think about it and respond to it. Yeah, that leads into another statement that we wanted to discuss, which was God wouldn't leave us without a prophet to guide us. You alluded to a little bit there how you would deal with that question, but other others, how would you... Would you take that one and redirect it towards talking about the true profit that the, the ultimate profit that would come? Uh, you just have to go. To Hebrews, I believe. Um, and I'm going there right now. So just, you know, give me a second, but, uh, we already were talking about John one, one and. That, you know, we spent what was forty something minutes just freely and openly talking about the truth. And it was not constricting. It wasn't confining. It was very easy to do. And, uh, I think it, you run into trouble as soon as you try to uh, Win over the other person instead of letting God do it. Hebrews one says in the past, God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways. But in these last days, this is current because we are also in the last days. In these last days he has spoken to us by his son whom he appointed heir of all things through whom he made the universe. So we have the prophet and we can read his words verbatim whenever we want to is we just got to open up our Bibles and see what he has to say. And then as far as, well, what are we supposed to do? How are we supposed to live? There's a beautiful thing in the scripture, in the Bible, uh, called wisdom literature. And I found that really useful for my, my own personal growth as I try to figure out now, how do I live? I need somebody to tell me how I live. Well, why not let God tell you. Through the words of the wisest man who is said to have walked the earth, Solomon. So I, I just really think you gotta end it at Jesus, but there's also, there's wisdom in the Bible by itself too, where you can glean from and learn from and walk away with tools. What do you guys do when, um, it kind of comes to a debate about, um, works, well, basically works righteousness. So a lot of times the conversation will be, you know, trying to compare the gospel that we believe in to the Mormon gospel. And often, um, someone I'm talking to will get defensive and say, we're not trying to earn eternal life with God. We're learning eternal life with God. Where do you guys take the conversation next when that happens? Maybe it's nice just to talk about childlike faith. Um, what is, what is the distinction? Why does Jesus mention no one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless they're like one of these little ones? Um, you know, I, A young child learns, but that's not what they're primarily focused on, is it? Uh, maybe, maybe certain children and maybe I'm speaking into a corner. Uh, but. I think children like to play, you know, I think they like to live freely and have fun and being like some sort of a protected garden maybe or something like that. Those are some initial thoughts. Yeah, I like that I I've gotten you know when I bump into this kind of question a lot and I haven't really come up with a good way to transition that I'm gonna I think that's a good place to go john I. I'll add that to my, like, I don't know, arsenal, I guess. It's not, it's not really an arsenal, but um, you know, cause just cause that childlike faith is, is not one of, you know, High knowledge and high ability and living out this perfect life. It's just accepting what you're told. And you're, we're told you're going to live with God forever because of what Jesus did. Having raised a few children, um, I noticed they're extremely dependent and that's what I think of when Jesus is talking about having a childlike faith that, um, you know, on, on their own. They're helpless, especially, you know, the younger they are. Um, they're, um, 100% dependent on their parent to take care of them. Okay. But then the follow up usually is. God is our father and he wants us to learn and grow and become like him. What do you say next? Molly, that again is a conversation on dependency and independency where I relish that opportunity to really talk about what does it mean to learn and what does it mean to know. Um, what does it mean to become more, um, in a relationship with God? It's not that I'm able to bring myself to him and show him how much I've learned and how I'm walking better as a Christian. But it's trusting more and more in him and what he's done for me. Same with, we've been talking about children here. You know, in our relationship with our children so often, they need to learn to trust us too and trust that what their parents say is best and that their parents have their best interests in mind. And ultimately God is not looking for us to independently step out on our own and prove to him that we have become like him and that we have attained some divine goal of exaltation. But ultimately, he's desiring for us to acknowledge that we are broken, not even just broken, but we're Dead in our trespasses and sins on our own and that we, we need more than just a tune up. We need a resurrection. In our hearts and lives, we need for him to take our dead heart and replace it with a new heart of flesh that trusts in him. Even that older brother in the story of the two sons had to turn from what he was doing and he had to renew his mind. What do you guys do when someone says to you, faith without works is dead? They're quoting James. Quoting the Bible on you. And they say, you can't just believe in Jesus and expect to receive eternal life. Kind of the whole debate is uh, faith equals works. I tell them that context is important because if you read the entire book of James, the entire letter of James, James actually says some pretty extraordinary stuff. Um, that seems to contradict what he's saying in the second, um, in the second chapter of James. Um, what, who he's, the people he's talking to are people who believe or are living as if Um, they can have faith and not, we'd say walk the walk, right? Uh, that they can have faith but not live as if they have faith. And what James says is that is absolutely not true. If you love your savior, if you recognize this priceless treasure of a gift that you've been given in your salvation, you will be Do everything you can to keep and preserve that gift and you will bear fruit of the spirit. And so, um, with that in mind, You cannot have faith without works. Yeah, we, we've spent some time talking about how Don't be afraid of this question. If someone wants to take us to James and talk about the relationship between faith and works, Say, great, let's, let's talk about the relationship between faith and works, but read it as somebody was saying earlier in its full context. Including the full context where when it talks about this relationship between works always. Our faith always resulting in works and he gives two stories. He gives that story of Abraham and his. Um, willingness to sacrifice his son Isaac and then that of the prophet Rahab and her, um, decision to protect the spies that came. And in both of those stories, what James is really saying is the faith came first and it resulted in some sort of. Activity that would be considered a work of faith. And I love to take Mormons then to Genesis. And look at Genesis chapter twelve and Genesis chapter fifteen where Abraham is brought to faith. He's declared as righteous. And then he does a bunch of terrible stuff in the next couple of chapters. He lies about his wife. Um, he sleeps with his wife's servant, Hagar gets her pregnant. Um, Ishmael comes from that. That's going to lead to a whole. Massive hurt for him and the world even today. And then finally, after God has been Helping him see not to do things in his own way or according to his own eyes, but according to God's ways and in the way that God's eyes work. It's finally in Genesis chapters twenty-one and twenty-two where he actually does something that now can be acknowledged as, wow, this is a good work. He is trusting in God because God has brought him to this place. And I, I see that as a great opportunity then if you, if you want to talk about the sacrifice of Isaac to transition into talking about the sacrifice of a true and better son. Um, the, the one that. Heavenly Father did not pull back from and went through with the sacrifice so that we would all be saved and resurrected. So lots of, lots of ways to transition from that one. Something else that works with that verse is often, you know, we've talked about it before, but faith in the LDS understanding is itself a work of some kind. It's an action. You exercise your faith. Um, live your faith, work it, you know, it's, it's faith is a work and they'll even say that clearly faith is a work we do. But if, if that's true, if faith is itself a work now, James's whole point doesn't make any sense. Faith without works is dead. Works without works is dead that doesn't faith and works have to be completely separate in order for anything James is saying even in chapter two to make any sense. So that's, that's something to point out as well. That's true in Ephesians chapter two as well. That's something maybe we're more happy to go to. It's a little more explicit with by grace, you are saved through faith. Um, but both of those sections teach that faith and works are complete, are separate. They can't be the same thing. Great way of saying it. Pastor, what do you do then when somebody says, you know, well, that's just evidence of, uh, Abraham. It doesn't work so much with, with Rahab, which maybe is what you say. Uh, but that's Abraham and Rahab progressing, right? They, they haven't, They haven't, they're, they're already righteous, but they're not worthy yet or whatever words you, they're, they're progressing. They're getting there. Um, what do you do with that? That idea then when I guess that's a great question. And that's where, um, What you were talking about earlier, really camping out on the concepts of justification and righteousness becomes so important where for Latter-day Saints, they are really. Wrapped up in this idea that righteousness is something that you can become rather than something that is imputed to you through faith. And so that's where I'll really say like what James is saying, what... The book of Hebrews is saying what Paul is talking about in his letters when it comes to Abraham and his faith is it's, it's enough. Like it's not faith plus works that equals justification. It's. Faith and justification equal works coming from that, not for that. And so that's again where I will often make that distinction on works come from justification, from a right standing before God. Not for it. And just that single letter in that word makes all the difference and they'll often get it. Something I've also brought up with the James section, especially like the, um, show me your faith type of thing is that like humans need to see other humans do things to know what's in their heart, but God doesn't. Like in, um, second Samuel when, um, David is being chosen as king and all the brothers go like before him and then, you know, then it comes to David and it's basically like men look at outward appearances but God looks at the heart. Like, the same thing. Like, God can see the faith that's in our heart. We don't need to prove our faith to him by our deeds. But how do we show our faith to other people? We show it by what we do. So that's another way that I've explained this type of verse. So, let me just uh, Throw this at you. I feel like we have done a good job of explaining the verse, but I don't know if we have used it as an opportunity to proclaim. Does that make sense? So that's what I think is so tricky about this is in this type of conversation, it seems like explanation is really necessary. But am I doing any good if I don't get to proclaim? Well, it's easy online. You just get the gospel in there as part of your answer. That sounds trite, I know. Um, but in my explanation, like Faith Without Works is Dad, well, yeah, I, I, good works are part of my new life in Christ as a response to or because I thank and glorify God for what he has done for me, which is. Um, and then just simply restate the gospel again. I don't know if that's the most, uh, like there might be other ways to go, but that's usually the, the place I end up going is just restating a clear, uh, Proclamation of the gospel again. I do good works because I recognize what I've been, what has been done for me, which is, and then say it again. Yeah, Molly, I think that's a fair comment to make and maybe it's going back to the end of the Genesis account of Abraham sacrificing Isaac and Rather than racing through it like I did before in the connection to Christ, really camp out on that and really emphasize that Abraham Like the rest of us needed a true and better sacrifice, one that Isaac was not going to be able to complete. But that God himself needed to carry out through his son so that that life, death, and resurrection of the perfect son of God Would be the thing that Abraham would ultimately be putting his faith in that the savior to come from his line. Was going to come. Um, and, and that's the part of that story that's just so phenomenal is that God had been telling Abraham all along that all nations would be blessed through your son. And now he's telling him that this son was, Was to be sacrificed and the book of Hebrews tells us that Abraham in some way or another assumed that God would either raise him from the dead or God would work out another way. And that's another direction I'll take it at that God worked this out. Um, God is the one that ultimately does the work, not me. And now because of the work that he's done, the faith that I have in that does respond in works. But I think that's a way to proclaim Christ. And I just think there's a ton of irony at the end of Ephesians two too. And it's like, all right, we need to do some works, but just, uh, by the way, God prepared them in advance for you to do. So you never get any of the credit the whole way through. This is, this is God all along. Yeah. It's because. Well, are there any other common conversation topics that LDS bring up with you that you want to talk about with the group today? Also, I feel like this conversation has been really helpful and I really appreciate you guys being vulnerable and talking about your failures and And your temptations to debate, but ultimately we're all just learning more and more about how to point to Christ and I'm grateful that he keeps using us and giving us more and more opportunities to declare his name. Um. That's it. Those are the five pillars. You now know our witnessing approach. Thanks for joining us and we look forward to hearing more about witnessing to Mormons. And we'll talk again soon. Thanks, everyone. Thank you.