Overview and Observations: "After All We Can Do" by Dieter Uchtdorf

Welcome to another episode of the Witnessing Christ Podcast! In this installment of our Latter-day Saint book review series, Mark, Molly, and Grace dive into After All We Can Do by Dieter F. Uchtdorf, a prominent LDS apostle whose winsome style and nuanced take on grace has captured attention within and beyond his faith tradition.

Uchtdorf attempts to reinterpret 2 Nephi 25:23—“it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do”—in a more hopeful and less burdensome light. But does his message reflect biblical grace or reinforce the same exhausting cycle of works righteousness with softer language? Our team engages this question as they thoughtfully explore the book’s high-sounding promises and troubling inconsistencies.

In this episode, you'll hear a critical yet compassionate assessment of the LDS doctrine of “enabling grace,” Uchtdorf’s use of the parable of the prodigal son, and his attempts to merge gratitude-based obedience with conditions for exaltation. Through it all, Mark, Molly, and Grace contrast LDS teachings with the biblical gospel—that salvation is God’s free gift, not a reward for effort, and that hope and righteousness come from Christ alone.

Join us as we examine how to lovingly respond to LDS friends drawn to Uchtdorf’s tone but still burdened by the call to prove their worth. Learn how to point them to the true hope, rest, and rescue found only in Jesus.

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FAIR USE NOTICE:

This podcast explores published works written by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, with a particular focus on topics such as grace, salvation, and the character of God. As part of our episodes, we occasionally quote excerpts from these copyrighted materials.

We do so under the Fair Use provisions of U.S. copyright law (17 U.S. Code § 107), which allow limited use of copyrighted content for commentary, criticism, education, and discussion. Our use is transformative, offering biblical responses, theological reflection, and practical witnessing tips to help Christians share the gospel in love and truth.

We want to make it clear: We do not intend to replace or reproduce the original works, nor do we seek to disparage their authors. Instead, our goal is respectful engagement, inviting honest dialogue around eternal questions and the hope found in Jesus Christ. All quoted content remains the property of its respective copyright holders.

Transcript

After All We Can Do

00:00:00 Unknown: Welcome back to the Witnessing Christ podcast. Today I am with Mark and Grace. Hi, everyone. Good afternoon. Mark, you signed a book for us to read. This week we read After All We Can Do by Dieter F. Uchtdorf. Am I even saying his name right? you did your guttural Uchtdorf quite well there, Uchtdorf. All right, why don't you give us a general introduction. Why did we read this book? Who is Uchtdorf? And so on. Yeah, so Dieter F. Uchtdorf is one of the twelve apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, so maybe to summarize again, their leadership has a President and then a first and second counselor president underneath him. And then it's the twelve previously he had actually served in that first or second counselor role. So he was among the top three, but. For about the last, uh, ten to fifteen years, he's been serving as one of the twelve apostles of the church, for many years. Who listen to him speak at general conference or at devotionals at various colleges or local meeting houses. He is among their favorite. he has a. Wonderful, beautiful German accent. He's funny, quite charismatic compared to many of the other speakers. So for many, He is a go-to. If you ask a Latter-day Saint who your favorite apostle is, they're not supposed to necessarily have one, but he would be the favorite of many. and so they obviously are going to play off of that, popularity and had him take much of what he's been speaking about over the years when it comes to grace and put it into a book that is. Being promoted heavily by Deseret Bookstores, the bookstore arm of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It's the Mormon bookstore that Many Mormons across the country go to to find their supplemental spiritual guidance. So why did he write a book entitled After All We Can Do? Yeah, so in the Mormon Church, two Nephi twenty-five twenty-three it is by grace we have been saved after all we can do. is probably one of the most familiar verses for them, as well as for Christians that are interacting with them. And over the years, there have been many general conference talks given on this verse. There have been many Liahona and Ensign articles written about it. And even among the apostles and general authorities, there's often been a little bit of disagreement on what this means. And so I don't think this was intended necessarily to be like the definitive take on after all we can do, but it's his take on this. And I think for many that have been trying to unpack this verse throughout their life, they're kind of trying to figure out like, Is it grace? Or is it grace and works? Or is it works and grace? Or what is it? And he's trying to, in this book, to provide comfort to those that may be burdened By what Christians would say is the works righteousness of second Nephi twenty-three that you need to put in all of your effort and eventually after you have given your effort, that is when Christ steps in. And provides what is missing. that's kind of the traditional take, or at least the, the take that a lot of Christians will play off of. And he's kind of moving away from that definition to something a little more nuanced. It's been an interesting passage to be aware of as a witnessing Christian because it's so opposite of what I read in Ephesians two verse six And so I've tried showing, Amorim in these two verses side by side and just say, how does this work? These are not the same. These are opposite messages. And typically I have not had, fruitful conversations. I've always just ended confused in that they're trying to say, no, no, no, no. You misunderstand second Nephi. it means this, not that. And as I'm trying to understand them, it's almost like I feel like I'm listening underwater, like. You're saying something and I'm not quite catching on. So I do appreciate the, the effort put in by the LDS Church to clarify what this passage means to them. I think I have had some misunderstandings about what I thought it meant. However, it's still teaches works righteousness. Yep. Just, just a variation on it. Grace, have you used this verse at all or run into this in whether it was at the door over the years or in your online interactions? Has this one come up much? I think maybe in my first few times going out the door, I might have used this verse. but as I've, I think as I've encountered encountered more LDS people or had more conversations and realized how confusing it is for them and for us. I've kind of tried to lean away from it because just like We try not to use language that's gonna confuse us. I don't know how beneficial it is. Not that you can't use this verse, but if there is so much confusion, I don't know if it's necessarily a go-to. so I've been Trying to find other ways to kind of address the point without using that passage that I know they're going to disagree with me on. Yeah, I think so many Christians have tried to use this verse as one of those almost gotcha passages from the Book of Mormon to try and say, see, this is, this is what your church teaches. And because so many of them have a different interpretation of it, often they just kind of whitewash what it actually might mean. And then you're left like, oh, so you don't actually believe that. Okay. Moving on to the next thing then. So what are you guys' overall reaction to the book? Was it useful? Would you recommend that Christians read it and those types of things? Would I recommend Christians read it for their devotional life? No, obviously, but as an opportunity to better understand how Specifically, a Latter-day Saint leader is understanding these verses and understanding the concept of grace. I think it's very beneficial. We'll highlight some of the most pertinent topics today, but I think... In that sense, to understand how he's doing it is worthwhile. Grace, do you have other thoughts? No, probably about the same. I think just like with Emily Bell Freeman book, Emily Bell Freeman's books, it's helpful to see a different perspective than what you might think. Come up with on your own. but I guess be aware that you are going to find a lot of nuance and it's going to be a lot to wade through also. Yeah, Grace, uh, was describing how she went about reading this and she's got a color-coded system throughout. Tell us your color-coded system that you used as you were reading this. Okay, well, this was the first book I read, so I read it twice. Both, the last time was also like a week or two ago, so hopefully I'm not too fuzzy on it, but Red flags are for red flags, so things that I'm like blatantly disagree about. I knew I was gonna run out of those, so I also used blue flags for things that I thought Maybe they're not quite as bad, but like maybe there's still something here. and also I think red flag, blue flag, those can be a little subjective as like, am I reading into this because I know Mormon doctrine or like face value? How is this really? there are some yellow flags, that are, yeah, this is okay. I could, I could understand that in a correct way, although some of them are immediately followed by red flags, so I don't know how much of a yellow flag that actually is. I also had orange flags if I felt like the Bible was handled incorrectly or just misinterpreting a verse. and that's basically it. I had a green flag. I don't remember why. But I have two green flags. So maybe. And were those ones where you're like, oh, preach it, man. Yeah. No, I actually, actually, I I think it was, he wasn't directly saying anything LDS, but he was using an analogy or like a picture language where I'm like, maybe that's still not great. I think that's what the green flags were. Yeah, and you showed us your book and it is full of flags and so there's plenty in here to discuss. I think what Listeners would find if you listen to his general conference talks and then also readers would find with Uckedorf is There are times where it almost seems like he desperately wants to preach and teach Christian grace. And part of this, I wonder Molly, if it stems from his. Lutheran upbringing. So Uchtdorf grew up in Germany during the Second World War and his family was Lutheran at that time. And they converted later in his life. And so was any of the true Christian doctrine that he may have experienced as a child, even as a teen, Does that influence the way that he speaks about grace? When I listen to his general conference talks, I'm often like listening very closely because there's times where I'm like, wow. It almost sounds biblical. And then all of a sudden he'll throw in something that is just classic Mormon doctrine. Almost as if like, oh, I better get this in here or people might say that he's preaching a heretical message. And I kind of found that in the book, maybe not in as big of ways as in his general conference talks, but definitely again, where it was like, oh, track and track and track and then then boop. Nope. Back to Mormon doctrine. So what I found maybe exciting about that is in when I'm talking with, an LDS person, if I can kind of have that point of, oh, we both believe the same thing. Like starting point, then I can build on that. So if it comes to the grace of God, like I can start with, you know, what we have in common and then, okay, but it's so much bigger. It's so much greater, right? and we can kind of sprinkle that in throughout as we go when we kind of say, yeah, we have this little bit in common and then you can Do some proclamation to show, but God is like this or, but I can't pull that off. Those sorts of things. So should we jump into the book? I think we should. Okay. So, uh, I think around page eight, there is a lot of explanation of what second Nephi does and does not mean. Jumping right into the hot topic of the day. So maybe we can just kind of work through some of these quotes and figure out what this passage means to Uchtdorf. We, we choose to receive Christ's grace. We don't earn it. Salvation cannot be bought with the currency of obedience. It is purchased by the blood of the son of God. Have any of us done all that we can do? Does God wait until we've expanded every effort before he will intervene in our lives with his saving grace? Even that, it, it sounds like he's heading in a different direction, but he started with the word we choose, still putting the onus on the individual to Do something. And as he'll talk about later on, even this choice is made By keeping commandments, by being truly repentant, by following the ordinances and covenants of the church. So even that choice is still a work. And so he's trying to say that second Nephi is not saying we're saved because of what we can do. And. I'm a bit confused about what kind of salvation he's referring to here. If it's physical salvation or exaltation salvation, do you comprehend which, what it is? Yeah, so I think as I was reading, I only saw the word exaltation pop up just a couple of times in the whole book, which I found was kind of interesting because He's using salvation both in the broad sense that would include exaltation, but often in a more narrow sense that would only include physical resurrection from the dead. And I've, I've even heard some LDS teachers say that, oh, when Nephi was the book of Nephi was talking here, it's actually talking about exaltation, not salvation. And I'm like, what? then why didn't it use that word? And so that makes it even more confusing. But I would say here in that quote that you had, Molly, salvation cannot be bought with the currency of obedience. It's purchased by the blood of the son of God. He's talking about more of the, the. Specific, salvation when it comes to physical resurrection and dealing with, with death. Okay. So he's saying there's nothing we can do to earn our physical resurrection. Okay. so reading on many people feel discouraged because they constantly fall short. They know firsthand that the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. They raise their voices with Nephi in proclaiming my soul grieve because of mine iniquities. I'm certain Nephi knew that the Savior's grace allows and enables us to overcome sin. This is why Nephi labored so diligently to persuade his children and brethren to believe in Christ and to be reconciled to God. After all, that is what we can do and that is our task in mortality. All we can do is choose to receive grace as the Savior offers it to us. We can choose to receive hope And ultimately to receive joy. Doesn't that all sound at least quasi encouraging and, and quasi biblical? And it's almost as if, if he could leave it there and say like, Even the idea of choosing, it's a little fuzzy here because we're dead and we don't have the ability to do that. But right away in the next paragraph, it's kind of fascinating. He says, it's not a secret. It's available to all. It's promised to those who walk the path of discipleship, follow the teachings and examples of the savior, keep his commandments and honor covenants that they make with God. What a remarkable promise. so it's almost as if like he heard himself saying what he had said previously that almost sounds biblical. Like it's much more focused on like Unmerited gift that's being given and we just were receptors of it. But then all of a sudden it just flips again and goes right back into this that those who follow the teachings and keep the commandments and honor the covenants, they're the ones that get this. even the, the phrase there at the end where he says, what a remarkable promise will actually come back to that phraseology at the very end of the book. Where once again, it's the, the promise is not the way that we think of a promise of God, where as if someone was to say, I mean, what are the promises of God that you focus on? It's not the conditionalized promises. Do these things to get this thing. That's sort of a promise. But the promises of God that in Christ Jesus, everything that was necessary for me to be made right with God has been done. By God. Those are the promises that I cling to, not conditionalized promises like the one that he identifies here that I would refer to more as a payment promise rather than a promise of grace and goodness from God. Grace, did, did you have a different take on any of this or what were your thoughts on that section? Yeah, pretty much the same thoughts when it says like all we can do is believe in Christ I think that's again going back to what does it mean for them to believe like for us belief is like trusting and what God has done for us versus. Belief for them is more about what they are doing and showing that they have belief, like showing it goes along with what belief is for them. So I also kind of had the takeaway of, oh, I see why LDS bristle when I say you're a works-based religion. Because they do give some credit to God. And, you know, a hundred percent workspace religion won't give credit to God. And it's all about me and what I do. And I, you know, so, you know, in our biblical salvation formula, Jesus plus nothing equals everything. In their salvation formula, it seems more, First, I see God. Then I receive a gift. Next, God and I work together to make progress. And it's a little fuzzy about who's working harder in that. so I don't know if you call this, you call it syncretism, it's still a workspace religion, but, uh, it makes sense why I can't just go and say that straight up to their face. They're not going to receive that. Yeah. And isn't this so much the deception of Mormonism where for many Christians or many people that are reading the Bible If the doctrine was just completely pointing away from God and putting all of the onus for eternal life on man, everyone would say, that's not biblical. But Satan has distorted the gospel in, at some, at times, very subtle ways in Mormonism. I've used this illustration a number of times, but it just works so well that all false religions, true false religions are an arrow pointing up that says man must do something in order to approach the divine. The only true religion on earth is an arrow pointing down that says no. God had to do the things in order for man to be able to approach God without having to fear judgment. Mormonism is a hybrid between those two. Jesus does part of it. he's the arrow pointing down that begins the whole process, but eventually Joseph Smith's doctrine really started to flip back around and it became an arrow pointing up. Arrow pointing down, arrow pointing up. It's almost this like circular arrow, of you do your part. God does his part. You do your part. God does his part. that becomes the wheel on which Mormonism turns. So the next chapter is called the infinite power of hope. you know, he brought up how we're struggling with all we can do and that can lead us to despair. So it's very logical that we're going to go to hope right away. he has hope in the life of the progressing saint addressing themes of both God's love and the theme of lightness and darkness. Now, starting with looking at their view of God's love, I thought that, you know, in general, it seemed Basically similar in description with the adjectives to the biblical view of God's love. and why I was just saying the adjectives is because they use words like unconditional for everybody regardless of their resume. But they don't really describe God's love in action in the things that he has done for us. Yeah, I think that's a great way of looking at it. Something that I had, red flagged in my book was on page fifteen where it said, like, no, God does not need us to love him, but oh, how we need to love God. And for me, I was just like, oh, like, if if I were to rewrite that sentence, it would be God doesn't need us to love him. Okay, I can agree with that. But it would be, but oh, how we need God to love us. Like even saying like, we need to love God, like that's focused so inward and like, I need to do something. And I was just like, oh, stop. Don't keep going. That's the arrow. Yeah. The arrow pointed the wrong way. Right. Yeah, Molly, you started to talk about the sections starting on page seventeen where he really gets into the concept of the title of the chapter, The Infinite Power of Hope. how, how does he explain it here? and how is that different from the way in which Christian hope is articulated? What does he say here? That's. Oh, I like a quote on the next page. Hope is not knowledge, but rather the abiding trust that the Lord will fulfill his promises to us. Okay, so it starts off good. It is a confidence. We think of hope as confidence, but then there's a big if. It is a confidence that if we live according to God's laws and the words of his prophets now, we will receive desired blessings in the future and Even peace in this world and eternal life in the world to come. It is a believing and expecting that our prayers will be answered. It is a man. It manifests in confidence, optimism, enthusiasm and patient perseverance. So we really, it starts off in that, you know, we, our hope is in that God loves us unconditionally. That's great. But all of a sudden the hope And it rests in me, uh, my, my obedience and me getting the things right. And so they're, they would use hope in the sense that Christians do like, yeah, it's a sure hope. As sure as I can get it right, the confidence is in really in me again and not just in my savior. Yeah, and this is, this is again the way that Satan works where He uses the law of God and distorts it. He either leads it to make it sound that the law of God is so wrathful That there is no hope for anyone. Or he distorts it in the other extreme where, oh, you can do this and your hope now lies in your ability to accomplish this and bring yourself right. And both of those, where are they sending you? Away from Jesus. One in despair and one in self-righteousness. Yeah, he comes back towards the end of this section on page twenty with another very interesting quote on hope. So this, this time it, it almost goes in the opposite direction. Where he starts in a very unbiblical way, but then comes back here at the end where he says, because God has been faithful and kept his promises in the past, we can hope with confidence that God will keep his promises to us in the present and in the future. If that statement was just stripped out of all of its context, I could say, boy, preach it, brother. whoever it would be, but he's not a brother in the faith because even that phrase promise that we have seen him use before the promises are not. What God has done. It's the conditionals of what we must do for God that again, you're placing your hope in so. Boy, the subtleties of this just back and forth trying to give comfort. you desperately sense that in so many of the general conference speakers and in so many of their well Known writers today is they get that the doctrine that they are normally teaching is bringing people to a place of toxic perfectionism, a place where there is hopelessness, a place where they are burdened. And so they're trained to reframe some of their teachings, but Satan is not allowing them to reframe them in a correct biblical way. They're just reframing it in a different way that puts on a different burden. Have you noticed that too? So it kind of seems like it goes back and forth between, yeah, like a little bit more biblical, wait, that's, like, they'll take a Bible passage that I would normally use to show, like, look, This is what grace is. Grace, is what gives us eternal life with God. And then they'll take the passage and then say, yep, this is a beautiful true passage and then totally reframe it. And almost make me just want to give up or pull out my hair. And isn't this fascinating? It's almost as if like. You know, a little bit of the light of the truth is starting to creep out from a basket that it's been hidden under. And all of a sudden they see it's like, oh, people are going to like that. And it makes them want to hear more, but we're going to close it again before we give them too much, because then. They're gonna trust just in Jesus instead of in themselves. So I do see this as an opportunity, though, in that if they're bringing up God's promises, that's my favorite thing to talk about. And if you get the opportunity, like, can we just start talking about promises that don't contain the word if, or the promises that were given to, the. Some real good sinners like Abraham and Jacob and how God kept those promises in spite of the, the train wreck of a human that these biblical characters were. Yeah, towards, towards the end of the chapter, would love to hear your thoughts on page twenty twenty-three there's a few quotes there, Molly. Starting with, for the natural man. What do you make of those, Grace? Grace, can you read those ones for us? Kind of ended the first paragraph there on twenty-three Okay. For the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned. How far did you want me to keep going into that next section? So how do we open our eyes to the hope of God's light? First, start where you are. Isn't it wonderful to know that we don't have to be perfect to experience the blessings and gifts of our Heavenly Father? We don't have to wait to cross the finish line to receive God's blessings. In fact, the heavens begin to part and the blessings of God begin to distill upon us with the first very steps we take toward the light. The perfect place to begin is exactly where you are right now. It doesn't matter how unqualified you think you are or how far behind others you may feel. The very moment you begin to seek your Heavenly Father, the hope of His light will begin to awaken, enliven, and ennoble your soul. The darkness may not dissipate all at once, but as surely as night always gives way to dawn, the light will come. Hey, let's talk about how, how, how can, what, what do we make of that? How can we, how can we build off of that? Well, the first thing I notice is the, the quoting of natural man cannot receive the things of the spirit of God. They're foolishness to him. And then the next, section they say, you need to seek God. You have to take the first steps. so that surprised me that they would put those two thoughts so close together on the same page. And I didn't know if I am I missing something in understanding their faith or is it just, I don't know, was an error on the author's part. Yeah, that was the part that jumped out at me. He's quoting one Corinthians 2.14 and everything that comes after it almost says the opposite of what that verse is actually teaching. I guess even there's a little quote of Doctrine and Covenants right before it. I am the light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehended it not. So even Doctrine and Covenants, it's kind of teaching that too. but yet I'm also hearing that agency is such a important part of the LDS faith process. So I, maybe what this means is that there is room to talk about it in, just showing like, what did these mean to you? And then explaining. So to me, I understand that I am dead in sin and I can't take the first steps. I don't say that I chose to come to Christ in my vocation. That's not in my vocabulary because that sounds a little bit like I get some credit. And when we're witnessing to Latter-day Saints, we have to make sure that arrow is pointing down and it does, we don't accidentally imply that we get any of the credit. imply that when God found me or, when God turned the light on. There you go. Yeah, some of our Jesus is enough interviewees have really described that moment where it was God's working to take the scales off of their eyes and allow them to see with clarity. It's not something that we could do on our own. Yeah, the chapter starts to close with another very interesting quote on page twenty-five where he says, as we study the scripture, speak with our heavenly father daily and commit. To keep the commandments of God, we attain hope. And it almost reverses some of the things he said in the chapter where the good works follow. The, the, the hope that we have, no, the, the hope he says here comes after the good works, after you've been putting in the commandment effort. And so again, just flips that script upside down again. How would you reframe that in Christianese? Because we have a savior who kept the commandments in our place and now we can stand before God not fearful of judgment. But awaiting the embrace of a loving God, that gives me hope. Hope that on the days where I feel The weight of the sin of a weight of my own sin, the weight of my own unworthiness in front of the world that I have a God who has made a way, a God who is the way back to him, not, not based on My word or my self-talk or the words of Satan telling me but the words of my Savior. That's what I would say. Something like that. Sounds good. That gives me some more hope. And really, I think that helps a lot. Just how often can I articulate the hope that the Bible has laid out for us? And that, you know, they are thankful for the, the gospel message that they have because to them, you know, it's pretty good. It's, they don't have something better. And so this is our job to show them. Guess what? It's way better. Your hope can be in someone outside of yourself who did it all. Ollie, was there anything else in, or Grace, in chapter one that you wanted to look at there before we move on to chapter two? There's multiple chapters in this book, so we're not going to be able to go as in-depth in all of them. Anything else in this first chapter? If not, Molly, what did you wanna talk about in chapter two? Chapter two is entitled The Gift of Grace. And, you know, initially we were thinking, yay, because we like gifts and we like grace. But we always have to remember that grace for Latter-day Saints means the enabling power. So, they're thinking it through, what does it mean that God has given us the power to obey? So start interpreting it through those eyes. one thing I noticed throughout this chapter is, they had a lot of like kind of nice biblical descriptions of the gospel. But can was inserted throughout. I started underlining a lot of the cans in here, such as because of Jesus Christ, our sins can. Can not only be erased, they can be forgiven. We can become purified and exalted. We can forever drink from the fountain of water. We can dwell forever in the mansions of our eternal king. And you wouldn't necessarily notice that if you weren't thinking about that means maybe we won't. In that if we don't do all the things, then we won't get the most blessings. Very subtle again. He starts, yeah, go ahead, Grace. One of the ways you can see kind of that flip is on page thirty-four there's a section that says, because of Jesus, we will rise from the despair of death and embrace those We love, because of Jesus, we will exist as eternal beings. But then you get to the next sentence and it says, because of Jesus Christ, our sins can not only be erased, but they can be forgotten. And it's not saying because of Jesus our sins will be erased and will be forgotten, but there is that switch between the very, like, definitive will And now you're getting to that can language. We can become purified and exalted. It can in the sense like maybe it'll happen, not it's able to happen. Yeah, so this, this is just really building off of what I was alluding to before where so many General authorities in the way they're talking right now, it's lifting that burden off a little bit so that people like sit up and listen like, oh, he's gonna give me hope. But without realizing it, I think so many are just being burdened again. And it's just being done in this really subtle way. Uh, verse or page thirty-six they don't do verses in these, uh, page thirty-six says, If we keep earnestly keep practicing, always striving to keep God's commandments and committing our efforts to repenting, Enduring and applying what we learn, line upon line, we will gather light into our souls. And he's quoting from Doctrine and Covenants fifty verse twenty-four And though we may not fully comprehend our full potential now, we know that when the Savior shall appear, we will see his countenance in us and shall see him as he is. Again, he uses this phrase, what a glorious word. One more time, just this long list of things that one must do in order to have this hope that has been promised. That, that paragraph was probably one of the most blatant LDS paragraphs in the whole book. Did you have a red flag on that one, Grace? Yes, she did. Yeah, she's holding it up and pointing to it. I don't know if you were there, you had other thoughts on, on that section. It emphasizes, uh, Learning and idolizes learning, perhaps learning in the sense of becoming that's how they're becoming like God. And it made me think about how. The gravity of sin is so diminished and, their attitude towards sin is altered because the, the, the, the book, this section takes on a tone of like. Yeah, you're gonna fail, but that's your opportunity to learn and get better. Which, I mean, that, that's a good thing as human beings. Like, we should learn from our failures and get better. But that kind of softens how we should feel about sin. I mean, if you put that in the context of Horrible sins. Like, yeah, you might murder somebody, but maybe you'll get better at not murdering people next time. You know what I'm saying? Like, it takes away the gravity and the seriousness of it. How do we point that out in a way that I don't want to mock? Mock their faith, but really point out that this difference is very bothersome to me. Yeah, this is one of those places where Helping them to have a, and we've used this phrase before, a proper anthropology, so a proper view of themselves and then a proper theology to really see First, maybe using your own personal experience, like I don't think I can do this. I'm not getting. Better in the way that Uchtdorf describes it here. I'm not living up to this so-called divine potential and really put it on yourself. Like maybe even ask questions like, what am I doing wrong? They would likely say you're not following the restored gospel. You're not following the right set of rules. And I will say, well, throughout my life, rules have never been able. The rules have never been able to be the thing to make me right. the rules can show me that I'm not right. but the rules themselves do not give me the ability to morally improve. That has to come from a different source. And so maybe just make it very, very personal. I feel like there's also like as humans we're just used to sin so much because sin is completely around us like we can't not sin so of course we're gonna. Try and minimize that and be like, well, of course we have to make mistakes so that we can learn to be better. But then just as you were saying, pointing to how depraved mankind is, then pointing back to how holy God is and saying, that's not how it is with God. God, God is completely without even mistakes. He's completely without sin. And so we have to remember to hold ourselves to that accountability that God didn't have to, I mean, maybe this comes back to them thinking as man, as man is becoming God, that God became God, but For us, like, God didn't have to make mistakes to learn how to be God. Like, God always just was that holy. So mistakes and sin don't, aren't excusable in his sight. Yeah. So I did have a question with another quote coming up about, he says, the good news is that Jesus Christ has made the perfect atonement for all. Yeah, so bottom of page thirty-six yeah. Yeah, at first I'm like, ha, rewarding each individual according to his or her works. Wrong. But there's Bible passages like that. Yeah, I think he's, he's alluding to Revelation twenty-two Yeah. Yeah. So Revelation twenty-two twelve says, I will give to everyone according to what he has done. So what do you do when those, when they quote Bible passages like that and how do you still explain we're saved by grace? Yeah, this is one of those places in the Bible where we do see that in a sense... We could say that there are two ways to eternal life with God. One is through keeping all of the commandments perfectly. And doing good works and that you would stand before Heavenly Father and say, I was perfect. I deserve to be let in. in that sense, that's one way. The other way is to cling to the person work of Jesus and through that, Then in our sanctified lives where we have been brought into a restored relationship with God and he imputes his righteousness into us and declares us. To be perfect and holy as he is and now as we live out from that imputed perfection and holiness where he now views us in that way. Still sinners, but now declared to be saints. As we live out from that, we are going to do things that he now considers to be good. So in that broader sense, we are going to be judged through that, but it's because of our faith. These, you know, those are those places in the Bible where You know, people are saying, well, I didn't know I was doing this. And God's saying, no, you served the poor. You took care of the hungry. And they're saying, well, I didn't, I didn't know I was doing this. And it sounds if you, if you want to insert in there that the reason. They are being rewarded is because they did good. No, they were reward or they have the reward of eternal life. And that's why they did these things, not the other way around. It's, it's not one that I'm afraid of. You know, we should never be afraid of any Bible verses, but we do need to be able to properly explain them. Grace, was there any other way that you would articulate that maybe a little bit differently? Yeah, I think, and the one section you were talking about saying, like, when did we do all these good works? It's like the sheep and the goats, and one thing I was talking to someone about recently is just that All the times in the Bible where like believers are referred to as sheep and just how like they were sorted as sheep and goats before they had even talked about their works and how like. They were sorted by their identity. Their identity was that they were believers. They were already in Christ. And then another way, just talking about how we've been given Christ's robe of righteousness. So when God looks at us, he isn't In the sense of determining where we go, he's looking at Christ, not at us. So it's not seeing the bad I've done and looking at Christ's record as my own and seeing, oh, you've done all these good things, but he's looking at Christ. Yeah. Well, well said, you know, the sheep do sheep things. The goats do goat things. Believers do believer things. Unbelievers do unbeliever things. I'm resisting the urge to sing the cake song. Sheep go to heaven, goats go to hell. It's probably a very small percentage of the the listening to this that have a clue what I'm talking about. It's a great song. I don't. It's because you're not a 90s child. So there is a section in the book entitled Why We Obey and this one was another section that Had a little bit of conflict within itself, but also some things to consider as we are witnessing. So this is moving forward to around page forty-four I noticed that, they are saying we obey out of thanksgiving for what Jesus has done. Yeah, or love for him. Yes, yes. And I think that's really relevant to consider because I go around accusing them of not doing that. And what I mean is if you get rewarded for your obedience, how can you not be motivated to pursue that reward? It's the carrot on the string. Why wouldn't I walk forward to try and bite the carrot? assuming you like carrots. But, uh. So it made me think, how do I talk about obedience motivation differently in a way that makes sense? Yeah, and again, much of what he says here almost sounds right. Yeah, I, well, going back to the top of the section, where he actually points to a passage that I point to when I try and Explain why we do good things, and it's Romans six verses one to two He says, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? And then the God forbid, I talk about how if God has rescued me from all the terribleness of sin, then why would I want to go back and live in that sin? Like, I don't want to live in the unholy ways that I had been living, and I don't want to live in the wretchedness that sin creates, so why would I want to go back there if God has rescued me from it? And so that's one way that I've talked about it before that I know that a good God gives good commands and I fall short of those, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to live in the good that God has given. What's that? This section on why then obey closes with what has become and this must have been from one of his general conference talks actually it is it's from he had a general conference talk called the gift of grace a few years ago. And this quote at the very end where it says, grace is a gift of God and our desire to be obedient to each of God's commandments is the reaching out of our mortal hand to receive this sacred gift from our heavenly father. I've had missionaries quote that to me. I've had folks at the door during our mission trips quote that to me. How would you respond to that? I would say it's backwards in that I don't know how could I reach out by hand if I haven't. Received the gift of faith first. and so it, in my understanding, my low anthropology, I don't, it doesn't, it doesn't add up in that. First, God seeks me out. He finds his lost lamb. He puts me on his shoulder and puts me back among the flock. And I start doing sheepy things amongst the other sheep because God put me there. I... There's not a, I'm, you know, you don't see sheep out in the middle of nowhere like looking for, looking for the shepherd because they can't. Yeah, it once again really shows how the entire concept of grace in Mormonism is a back and forth reciprocal cycle of you do, you get, you do, you get, you do, you get. And so they would probably say, yeah, yeah, maybe at the start, God had to do something. but then you need it to keep the, keep it moving. they often talk about, how it's like a powerhouse on a stream, that it's, it's clogged up right now and. It's not the powerhouse that has the power, it's the water, but you need to unclog whatever it is in the powerhouse that's keeping it from moving. And it's like, no, I can't. My powerhouse is not just broken. My powerhouse has been destroyed. It's dead. I can't do anything to open it back up so that the grace of God can flow through me. It has to do that work too. He has a quote on page forty-six that probably summarizes all of this pretty well. We are not saved because of all we can do. President M. Russell Ballard phrased it as... It is through his grace that we are saved even after all we can do. He taught as we embrace his teachings, we give up all of our sins. We repent. We do all that is in our power to do. Even after all we can do. And as we give ourselves to Christ fully and completely, we find safety, peace, joy, and security in him. What does that mean? So I hear this and it sounds like it's saying something different, but I still don't understand it. How would you explain this in a way that's any different from the because of all we can do? Or can you even? Or is this one of those places where trying to say something in a new and clever way doesn't actually say anything new? It's saying the same thing, just using different words. Yeah, I mean in the paragraph above he uses like well it could mean like in spite of all we do or after all is said and done. But that still implies that something is said and done or like it's why does that need to be there? I guess it's clearly the words are there for a reason. One of the things that he is trying to do, and this is on page forty-seven I think he's trying to help us understand what this quote from Russell Ballard is talking about. So he Quotes from another elder, Quentin L. Cook, who says this, none can return to God by his or her own works alone. We all need the benefit of the Savior's sacrifice. And then, In a similar way in the next paragraph, he says, it is not by our sincere and honest change of behavior alone. I think the word alone jumped out at me so much because when we talk about the solas of the Bible, we are focused on the work of God. Where here, he's focused on the work of man. That it's not just based on what you do alone, but you need Jesus. So it's, it's again, just a really fascinating way of looking at this second Nephi chapter or twenty-five twenty-three So lesbian, grace alone, faith alone. What am I saying? There's three. Scripture alone. Thank you. By grace alone, through faith alone. Yeah. In Christ alone, by scripture alone. Some would even add to the glory of God alone. Oh, So they're leaving room for those, that's syncretism, God and me working together. Well, the next chapter is called Prodigals All, and Mark has been nerding out about the parable of the prodigal son lately, so this should be fun, right? So in this chapter, I think he kind of goes back to, okay, we're going to be discouraged again because we made a list of requirements. And now, he highlights the story of the prodigal son and has a decent take on it at first and Until. He kind of adds to the son's repentance, uh, the prodigal son's repentance, which was kind of interesting. I don't know. Mark, what was your take on his interpretation of the prodigal? Yeah, so I think it's, it's a fairly common interpretation where much of it is Focusing almost solely on the younger son and the issues that he have and he does a decent job of showing how this young man has decided to go his own way and live up the pleasures of this world. I found his use of hashtags as a eighty-four year old man in his writing pretty interesting when he's talking about that. This young man would have been hashtagging different things about his new opportunities away from the father. I'm trying to find which page that's on so I can read some of his hashtags. On fifty Yeah, on fifty so he says things like, hashtag living my best life, hashtag never happier, hashtag should have done this long ago. So, some interesting ways of understanding the younger son, but As he moves forward, you want him to get to the older son and he never does. And that makes sense in the LDS theological mindset where the older son doesn't really have a problem. In their opinion, the older son was the faithful one that stayed behind. And so really one of the ultimate connections to the story that he makes is on the bottom of page fifty-six where he says, It is my prayer that each of us may hear in the profound parable of the prodigal son, the father's voice calling us to enter the road that leads home. That way we may have the courage to repent, receive forgiveness, and follow the path that leads back to our compassionate and loving father. And flipping the page to page fifty-eight he's talking about the atonement and, quotes from Jesus in Matthew eleven coming to me, all you who are weary in the late, Heavy laden. I'll give you rest. And here's what he says, though. He says he offers forgiveness and strength to improve. Because of Jesus, we can leave our burdens behind, resolving each day to better follow him, the perfect one. And so ultimately it's not this repentance that the Bible correctly talks about where it's, it's turning from your sin, acknowledging the mess that you've made and turning to your only source of hope. But it's really doing what the prodigal son, the younger one, attempted to do, which was earn his way back into his father's house. And that's the part where lately I've been focusing so much on is how even his repentance plan was faulty. Because he thought that what his father was looking for was the diligence and faithfulness of his older brother that he wanted. He was going to be a servant. He was going to be a, he was going to slave away like his older brother had been doing. completely not realizing that what his father wants is his heart, not his hard work, that he wants a relationship. Not rules and regulations. I don't remember the father saying anything about improving. Nope. Nope. There was a quote also, he said, his gospel is the good news that we can begin again. So almost saying like, well, this was a fresh start for the younger son. Like now he can do it over again. Like that's not, that wasn't the point. Yeah. And often if you do get them talking about the older brother, it's well, he didn't need to start again. He's already on the right path and that's why they don't focus so much on him. No, no. We're not him or we're, we're focused on the younger brothers that need to get back on the right path. So what, how do you talk about the older brother? Yeah, really to help them see that the older brother, even though he appeared to be very close to the father, acknowledges himself that he has been slaving. Not sunning all of these years, he's been slaving for the father and he really speaks in a way where he articulates the transactional nature of the relationship that he has with his father. I've been doing all of these things all of these years and yet you have not given me this small thing that I would want, which would be a party with my friends. He's not, he's not desiring a better relationship with his father. He wants the father's stuff. In just the same way that the younger son did. The younger son thought he would get it by breaking the rules and taking his inheritance early. The older son thought he would get the father's stuff by working hard his entire life. Both of them have missed the point of a true relationship with the father, with God. That's based on trust in him, reliance on him, a desire to know him and love him, not to just get the good things that he has to offer. If you want to learn more about that, his presence. Yeah. If you want to learn more about that, we'll, we'll link to a number of articles that we're using for our at the door mission trips on the story of the prodigal and how to use that in witnessing. Yeah, it's a whole thing. We've got all these ideas. We brought them down. Good news. And you can have them too. So later on in the book, he references back to the story of the prodigal son in a way that I thought was pretty alarming that maybe is logical to, bring up now. This is reading page 119, uh, quote about the father's embrace. His welcoming embrace is promised to those who walk in the path of discipleship, Follow the teachings and example of the savior. Keep his commandments and honor covenants they make with God. What a remarkable promise. So that was a long list for the father's embrace. Which of those did the prodigal son keep? Mark, you're muted. He didn't come back with any of those. those were part of his plan, but the father just embraced him before he could do any of those things. So I would say this isn't an accurate description of the prodigal at all. once again, He uses that phrase promise they're seeing what a remarkable promise. And I think this is maybe The way that I would summarize this book as a whole is that it is trying to allow the LDS person that is burdened to find hope and comfort in. These weird promises of God that they've created that as long as you do this and this and this, you don't have to feel that burden anymore. You can have a hope. You can return to your heavenly father and receive his embrace. And so it's, it's just a subtle distortion again by Satan where he's using biblical words like promise that we just love so much. But it's a promise of work that receives reward rather than faith that focuses on a trust in the work of another. I think that there are probably lots of other things we could say about this book, but that section on the prodigal and the way that this wraps up here, I think is, is one of the most important. Rather than walking through the three remaining chapters in detail, Molly and Grace, was there anything in those chapters that you just said, you know what, we can't leave our listeners without touching on this. I wanted to react to a section in the last chapter. Uh, the last chapter is entitled Overcoming Discouragement. And it gives you a formula. So pray, read your scripture, serve your neighbor. Those are all nice things. But the next section is entitled, you are probably better than you think you are. And then he has nice little anecdotes. Here's our low anthropo, our high anthropology again. Yeah. Yes, he's got some anecdotes. Was it Fred Astaire? Like Fred Astaire, his first tryouts were, not that impressive. And then he got better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. nice anecdotes. None of them are biblical. But, you know, what's your gut reaction if someone says you're probably better than you think you are. You're too hard on yourself. I would say you need to get to know me better. I might actually be worse than you think I am. Yes, and I think that is one of the greatest tensions between what the Bible's teaching and what, Uchtdorf here is saying. That we are far worse than we think we are and It's okay to destroy confidence in ourselves because God is far better than you think he is. The promises that you love, they're greater. They're bigger. And they're everything. And so once you give up trusting even a little bit in yourself in the hope that you are better than you think you are, you get to rely fully on the God who is so great and so good. Thanks Molly. Grace, any, anything that you would say? We, we just can't, we can't miss this. Uh, not off the top of my head. Yeah, the only other one that I had was back in chapter five on page seventy-nine Uchtdorf straight up calls the law the gospel. And I think that is something that we dare not miss in all of Latter-day Saint theology. It's fascinating because he does a pretty good job of unpacking what the original Greek word for gospel means, which is good news. But once again, he turns that good news into the promise of your work being the thing that is going to save you, the laws and the keeping of them. And so what he says is, the church should be love God and the church should love your neighbor. That is the center of the gospel. And so that. And even I went and looked it up. That's Matthew chapter twenty-two And Jesus says law. This is the word gospel. Yeah. So, but yeah, very fascinating switch. And so that has to be in the back of our mind constantly when we are speaking with Latter-day Saints is that. This after all we can do verse is completely being interpreted through that lens. That the gospel is another law that does say there is something that you need to do in order to make yourself right with God. One of our goals as Christian witnesses is to just restructure the framework on which they are understanding the word gospel. And present to them in as many ways as possible the beautiful nature of the good news of the perfect son of God that was born as a baby in Bethlehem, live that perfect life, Died that sacrificial death in our place and then gives all of that to us so that we can approach his father as our father. Not afraid that we haven't done enough. Not afraid that there's more that we need to do in the life after this one and even the life after that one. In order to gain enough knowledge and experience and have enough practice to be able to spend eternity in his presence. But it's been gifted to us freely through Jesus and received through faith, which is Also given through Jesus and the work of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Should we, should we call it a day on after is, is that all we can do with all after all we can do? I would say it is. That was enough. Yes. Well, thank you both for unpacking this book with me. in the future episodes, we're going to be looking at, at more books this time. We're going to start taking a look at some books written by, Some former Latter-day Saints now Christians as they try to help us start to understand how they see grace differently and how they would speak about it to. Those that are still trapped in the lies and burdens of Mormonism. So I'm really excited for those opportunities as well. Thanks, Molly. Thanks, Grace. Thanks to those listening. Have a blessed day in the Lord.