Overview and Observations: "The Shelf Breaker" by Damien Tracy

In this episode of Witnessing Christ, Mark and Jon delve into The Shelf Breaker: How Jesus Drew Our Family Out of Mormonism by Damien Tracy. This powerful memoir begins with Damien’s traumatic upbringing marked by abuse, leading him into cycles of sin and despair. Despite his earnest efforts to achieve worthiness through Mormon teachings, Damien found himself trapped in guilt, fear, and unworthiness.

Join us as we explore Damien's journey—from confronting his deep-seated struggles to his transformative encounter with grace. We discuss key stress points such as the burden of worthiness, the inconsistencies between LDS teachings and practice, and Mormonism's transactional nature. Central to Damien’s story is the metaphor of the "shelf," representing accumulating doubts and contradictions that eventually broke under the weight of truth.

Damien’s narrative candidly reflects on how personal relationships with faithful Christians, consistent biblical teaching, and genuine grace opened his eyes to a new, liberating identity in Christ. This episode emphasizes the power of relational evangelism, listening compassionately, and consistently pointing to the complete forgiveness found in Jesus alone.

Whether you're witnessing to Mormon friends, grappling with doubt yourself, or eager to understand the profound contrasts between LDS theology and biblical Christianity, this discussion will provide encouragement and practical insights. Tune in to hear how Damien moved from the overwhelming pressure of performance to resting in the unconditional love of Christ.

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FAIR USE NOTICE:

This podcast explores published works written by former-Mormon Christians, highlighting their journeys to faith in Jesus Christ and their insights into the transformative power of the gospel. As part of our episodes, we occasionally quote excerpts from these copyrighted materials.

We do so under the Fair Use provisions of U.S. copyright law (17 U.S. Code § 107), which allow limited use of copyrighted content for commentary, critique, education, and discussion. Our use is transformative, offering biblical reflections, theological analysis, and witnessing insights to help Christians share the gospel in love and truth.

Our intention is not to replace or replicate the original works but to provide thoughtful engagement that encourages listeners to seek out and purchase these valuable resources for themselves. All quoted content remains the property of its respective copyright holders.

Transcript

00:00:00 Unknown: Welcome back to another edition of the Some of our former Mormon now Christian friends and today I am joined by John. Welcome, John. Hey, Mark, how are you doing? I'm doing really well. And we're going to be taking a look at the book, The Shelf Breaker, How Jesus Drew Our Family Out of Mormonism by Damian Tracy. This book was just written and published this last year in 2024. So it's very new as far as an ex-Mormon book and We're gonna kind of give a general overview of what Damien tells about his story of leaving Mormonism for biblical Christianity. And then really, what can we as witnessing Christians learn from this book that will impact us as we go out and proclaim Christ to Mormons? John, as we get started, um, give us just kind of a real basic overview of who Damien is, where this book goes in his story. Yeah, I thought maybe I could start just by reading a little bit about the author on the back of the book and then offer some thoughts as I reflect upon it. raised in a confining embrace of a Mormon family, Damien Tracy navigated a turbulent sea of neglect and horrifying sexual abuse, which is how the book opens. It opens very strongly. Trapped in a relentless cycle of sin, he found himself a participant in the very atrocities that plagued his existence. Deep in his heart, Damien clung to the belief that Mormonism held the key to true salvation. With each act of diligence and adherence to the strict laws and ordinances of the LDS gospel, he yearned desperately for redemption. Yet despite his tireless efforts, an insidious emptiness gnawed at his soul, rendering him powerless to mend the gaping wound in his heart. And it was only when God intervened in a profound and transformative way that the scales fell from Damien's eyes. He came to the staggering realization that true righteousness does not flourish within us simply through striving. But emerges from a divine essence that lies beyond ourselves. This revelation shattered the fragile foundation of his world, bringing chaos crashing down around him. In the tumultuous moment, Damien found himself at the mercy of the shelf breaker, Jesus, grappling with the remnants of his fractured life and the promise of something far away. Yeah, the book really starts out on a high note. it really slaps you in the face with some hard truth and, the transparency that Damien wrote with. Really struck me. That was one of the things I wrote down and it was even mentioned in the forward. Transparency is not something that comes easily to most people. Especially members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And I think throughout the book, he really highlights that in dealing with his family. So what happens is he is a victim of sexual abuse as a young boy And He never clarifies who was the perpetrator but he willingly admits that he himself fell into that very same sin even before he graduated high school. And he goes into so much LDS theology that was going through his mind at a young age already as he was grappling with these things and the, the first section of the book really revolves around worthiness and he, he just conveys how he does not feel worthy, uh, because of this great sin he committed, uh, it's very clear that Every single action that a young Mormon makes is very consequential. And this is what goes through his mind as he grapples with this sin and he thinks, man, I've blown it already. Like, I can't make the celestial kingdom already because of this sin. he talks about his fear of not going on a mission because And he grapples with whether or not he should confess his sins and he actually does And then the bishop says, well, there's no need to go to the actual authorities and face the consequences of this sin. And my mind split in two directions. Like, okay, you have a theology that is revolved around some form of penance making up for your wrongdoings. But at the same time, In the local government, you don't have to. And just going off that a little bit further, uh, the implications of that meant that he would no longer be able to go on a mission And so he was going through this turmoil in his head of. Well, how can I ever do the first thing that you need to do to get into a celestial relationship or exaltation? And that's get married and sealed in the temple. And what woman. LDS woman is going to want to marry somebody who doesn't go on a mission Yeah, didn't, didn't he do just such an incredible job of placing us into his shoes and struggling with that issue now that I have sinned in such a way that will prevent me from going on a mission. Which is going to make me undesirable to any good Mormon woman. And now this is going to impact the rest of my life here on earth and my eternal life as well. talk about pressure and he just describes that so boldly. Let's go to that, that chapter on the web of filth and talk to me a little bit about As he's wrestling with this web of lies that is in his life, this web of filth as he describes it, so he had confessed his sin. Both to the secular authorities as well as to the sacred authorities at his church and had ramifications from both of them. How did Mormon theology start to just kind of rack his mind a little bit when it came to all of the things that he was required to do in order to become worthy again and what he saw happening around him? Yeah, the first thing that popped in my mind was when he was, he confessed his sins to his bishop, his great sin, the bishop immediately said, well, let's have recurring meetings. And abstain from the sacraments and from your priestly duties. And to him that logically made sense. The consequence for his action. But what threw a wrench in it. And. I'm curious to hear your opinion on this, but what I threw a wrench in it was when exceptions made For convenience. Yeah, he rightly wrestled with that, that, you know, I'm told that I can no longer receive the sacrament until I have really finished my repentance program that he's outlined for me. But then all of a sudden there's a need for someone to serve the sacrament to some homebound people. And now it's okay because we need you. And it really started to make him say like, Is our theology and our practice lining up or to sometimes practice Trump theology? And this really led to him wrestling with There are other people out there that have, he knew these in his extended family that had committed the same or similar sins. That were still actively involved in the service life of the church, still receiving the sacrament, still worthy. And he wasn't only because he had confessed the sin and they had not. And he starts to really sense that in my culture, it's better not to confess your sins because you can still be looked at as worthy. You can still participate in the sacrament. You can even still get your temple recommend card. What he realized is this is scary stuff because there are people out there that are doing these things that look like good upstanding Mormons when they're not or even good upstanding people in general. Yeah, and that world gets just shocked Yeah. so we've talked a little bit about how he felt as if he was not going to be able to kind of go on the normal path of a. Good upstanding Latter-day Saint. He didn't go on a mission, so now he is unable to Find a spouse in the way that he normally would. Um, he thought he was going to be looked down upon, but he joins the YSA ward. So that's the young single adult ward. And very quickly he meets a young woman named Patty. describe a little bit for us how, how, how that relationship blossoms, but also the things that he is doing during that time to try and make himself worthy. I'm referring to page forty-seven where He said, I continue to strive to become worthy. I wanted to become worthy of living a normal LDS life. I wanted to be worthy enough to go on a mission, even if I couldn't. I wanted to be able to go to the temple for my personal ceremonies, but also to be married inside one day. Reaching these worthiness goals was entirely up to me and my behavior. The less I sinned and the more I lived a righteous lifestyle, the closer I got to these goals. Uh, what do you make of that? I just see a tremendous burden, What a burden of conscience, to have to think about your eternal state with every action you make and, Patty becomes this first example. Of a grace that looks past, the sins of his past and takes him because there's that awesome moment in the car. it's in Hello Patty chapter later on. Yeah. So, so yeah, so at the, the YSA ward, um, the young single adult ward, he does meet this. A young woman, Patty, that he quickly falls head over heels for. They eventually start going on dates and as John was alluding to there, Damien felt compelled To tell her about his past and even I think a bishop wisely had told him this that before you get too close to marriage, your future spouse needs to know. about the sins of your teen years because this still impacts you even though he was, receiving counseling even though he had been on probation even though he had been doing everything he felt compelled to do this and Surprisingly, she showed him a lot of grace, right? And said, I know who you are now. I have not seen any of these things you've been describing. And she wanted to continue the relationship with him. And that becomes a big part of his story is that he has this woman to walk alongside him. And as we're going to see throughout the story, it isn't always easy. they're going to have their, Highs and lows, their ups and downs as a husband and wife, but God definitely, had the two of them on a journey together Absolutely. And, I don't want to keep jumping to the end and there's so much detail that's worth reading through so you can fully understand these relationships that he gains throughout this journey. but it becomes so heartwarming at the end to see their marriage and his reflection on it from the beginning towards the end. It's a really worth. Just digesting as someone who wants to pick up a good book and read, that relationship in the marriage is really just warm my heart to see the rawness. The transparency of the, like, these are the issues we faced religious tensions, like they didn't go away. These tensions were still there. And, yet we stayed together through it all. And, that part of the story is really touching to me. Yeah. So one of the things that I want to avoid doing in this podcast is to give the whole story away. because I want listeners to go and buy and read the shelf breaker. it's definitely a book worthy of reading. So, rather than giving everything away, let's start talking in a little bit more general way as far as in his journey, he uses the shelf metaphor throughout. What were some of the items that continued to be placed on Damien's shelf that God eventually used as he says to be the shelf breaker? The one that crushed his shelf and then eventually brought him into a saving relationship. Can you think of some of the stress points or the shelf items that he faced throughout his journey to Jesus? Yeah, the first one that comes to my mind as Is when he talks to the bishop about the three kingdoms. The three kingdoms is something he really grapples with. Because it doesn't seem reasonable even from a Mormon point of view. And we've talked about this previously in the podcast as we've talked about like the logistics of the eternal family. which one is the father? Is it like my son who's going to eventually grow up and get married? And are we going to be in the same eternal family? So that was, that was one issue that he wanted to address and he eventually did as the book progresses. Yeah, he really starts to build on that idea of the three kingdoms throughout he didn't really want to be with some of his physical family, the ones that had abused him and they would have been considered worthy. To receive exaltation and others in his life, including some of his Christian friends that he starts to meet that simply because they had not participated in temple work and gotten sealed to their spouse, they were going to be in a lower kingdom. And this really starts to weigh upon him is why can those that have lived very immoral lives and yet did the rites and rituals in the temple, they get to be exalted, and throughout his story that just becomes an increasing burden on his shelf. Yeah. I gotta think a little bit more about what else was put on his shelf. Yeah, so some of it starts to take place when he thinks about, Transactionality in the church. So he eventually does get married and has children and encounter some difficult times when he gets sick. And he does go to his bishop and asked for financial help. And they were willing to give him a gift of financial help as long as he and his wife spent significant amounts of time in a service project at a local apple orchard. And he just thought, can't they just grace me? Can't they just give this to me and, and help our family? I'm already working seventy plus hours a week. I'm carrying out my callings faithfully. And he started to see that this was part of the culture that you didn't get anything for free. There was always work that was involved. So that, that became a stress point and a shelf item for him. so the first time he goes into the hospital, it's because he's working seventy hours a week. He's got this idea of I gotta work my way back into the right relationship with God. That's his whole life until he finds grace. And he talks about that night he spent in the hospital where he felt this overwhelming sensation of doom. and he uses that word, particularly the feeling of doom. The nurse is actually the one who tells him that's probably what you're feeling. Cause he's like having panic attacks. He's freaking out. He's having a hard time sleeping. And he was concerned about where he would end up eternally. Uh, it was like, man, what if my pathway gets cut short before I get to do all the things that I had planned? any final stress points Yeah, here, I'm on page 187 chapter called Secrets and I'll just read this one paragraph here As I put my head down on the wooden conference room table and wept, I imagined every tear rolling off my cheek and falling onto the table was just one more thing being dropped onto my shelf. Drip. Race and priesthood. And this is because he had, he had looked at celestial marriage. Polygamy. Anachronisms. Anachronisms? Is that a word that you're familiar with? Anachronisms? Yeah. Maybe that's why it's actually Yeah, so that's something that I'm finding more and more folks are encountering when they read some of the materials that he referenced here. Eventually, he does read the CES letter, so the church education system letter by a young Mormon man who had really struggled in his faith. He read a letter for my wife. A number of our Jesus is Enough interviewees had read that one. And as he starts to read through these and he's studying the Book of Mormon, he starts to see that there are certain Things in the Book of Mormon that are mentioned like horses and elephants and different types of metal that did not exist in the Americas. At that time. So those were anachronisms, things that did not fit into the historical timeline and it became small shelf items for him. Were there other items in that list that he had? Oh yeah. Drip, drip, drip. Yeah, and I won't say the last one. I'll save that for people to read themselves because that was something I had never known about the LDS church. And it was one of the last things that he really was like, this is going to break up for me. But, uh, the three kingdoms we talked about, the kinder hook plates, and then Freemasonry. that one was interesting discovery later on in his life as he started to look more And evaluate Mormon truth claims. It became apparent to him that a lot of the temple rituals, We're inspired off of the rituals that are common among Freemasons. And, uh, that, that really blew my mind. and then he also talks about his life's work. his whole life of trying to make it the celestial kingdom. That's on his shelf. Yeah, in that chapter that John is referencing there, he calls it secrets and he just starts to learn a lot of things about the Mormon church and culture and the dynamics of its hierarchy that he never knew about. Towards the very end of that chapter, he starts to realize I don't belong here anymore. And on page 188, he says, but who was I without the church? What did my life mean? If the church and my hard work couldn't get me a safe and happy everlasting eternity, then what could? I allowed the tears to pool around me on the conference table, aiming to drown myself in my own river of despair. I felt myself metaphysically melting. And I would soon be formed into a puddle of my own creation. I didn't care. This was the end that I deserved. Throughout, Damien italicizes portions that are his thoughts and his reflections And to me, these were some of the most powerful parts of the book that really allowed me to understand the weight of Mormon pressure in perhaps some ways that I never had before. Let's start talking about that a little bit. So, um. How did this book help you have even greater empathy and zeal for the work that we do here at Truth and Love of Proclaiming Christ to Mormons, Empowering Christians to Witness? How did this man being so transparent embolden you in your empathy and zeal? Yeah. he really does a good job at explaining how he was just absolutely taken by these enticing ideas, that you can be God, One day you can have a celestial, you can have your own kingdom. and if that gets taken away, not only do you lose your, What you conceive to be the biggest prize possible. but you also lose your family. And that gets highlighted here as one of the big struggles that he went through and he draws a beautiful application to When Jesus was talking about leaving behind your family for the sake of Christ, Yeah, absolutely. Doesn't that just help us understand better what someone is giving up for the sake of the gospel? And how this was no small thing for him or Patty as they were leaving all of the ways in which they described the heartache that this caused for their family, both immediate and extended. And how even to this day it sounds like those relationships are either completely distanced or at the very least damaged and Just even the latter chapters as he has become a biblical Christian and his wife is still living the active Mormon lifestyle or trying to. With a apostate husband at this point and just the struggle that he went through at that point too and just giving us compassion for him and his wife in this. he had to give himself a lot of like reminder, like I was here just a few months before and how, how hard it was for him to see the truth. Right. And it's important to mention here that what made him aware of, His wife's needs was his friend Roy. Yep. His Christian friend came to visit, uh, when they moved, he came to visit just briefly. Uh, he was only there for a work trip and he said, Praise the Lord, even through the hardships. And then he tells him to consider what his wife is going through. It's exactly where you were. Less than a year ago. Let's go back to Roy a little bit. I think we've alluded to Roy's and his wife's involvement in Damien's story, they are such an integral part in this. And for me as a Christian witness this was very encouraging, to hear the type of impact that they're simple. At times and then other times very striking, involvement in Damien and Patty's life. tell us, tell us a little bit about that relationship How did it come about? How did it build over the years? Yeah, I'm having a hard time remembering exactly how it came about, but I know it was, it was through a workplace interaction that Damien had with Mary, um, the wife, um, is where they first met. That's right. Okay, that's right, because I know they eventually, start having weekly talks. Weekly talks about the Bible even. So they're having their own Bible study and... That's how that relationship really blossoms, when they get time together, At their own houses and, and build a relationship. And some of that really transpired during very difficult times that Damien was having with his health. And, they reached out to them and said, hey, can we bring you dinner every Sunday night? And then we're just gonna open our Bibles with you. What an impact that started to have on Damien as he starts to read the Bible, really for the first time and starts to see some major differences between what the Bible is teaching him and what his Mormon faith is teaching him. And even practically there, um, who was with him during his times of struggle too. He's like, where, where are all my LDS friends? Like what's going on here? And then he, he rationalizes it. He says, oh, they're probably busy. Right. And man, that made me chuckle as I read that because what is the point, you know, what is the, our horizontal relationship as Christians to support and build each other up, especially in times of trial. And Roy demonstrated how to properly. I loved, I loved that section. Absolutely. And, and so often it was, it was simple conversations that they had while golfing or while sitting in the car that, Damien now is able to write down almost verbatim and, you know, some of it he maybe had to elaborate on from memory, but. Just for those Christian witnesses listening right now, this is one of those stories that I think is going to be very encouraging to you as you read it. to really see how your work right now that you're doing of proclaiming Christ into the Mormon world is having an impact, even if you can't see it. I have a feeling that Roy and Mary for many months, maybe even years. Just kept praying and sharing, not necessarily seeing anything outward or visible as far as fruits of faith coming into Damien's life. Anything else as far as just kind of witnessing applications here that you remember from the book? Anything that stuck out to you? I think we touched on most of it. Um, just to emphasize again, listening, that's what it makes a very, Damien makes it very clear, the genuineness of his conversations with Roy and Mary. And eventually, his new friend when he moves. He was quick to listen and slow to speak. And there's that Christian principle that we should all try our best to embody with brothers and sisters going through any type of hardship. Yeah, absolutely. There's a part later on, uh, in the, in the Jesus chapter that I just think is worth, worth reading. And I think this might be his first interaction with Grace. And it happens as he's studying the Bible. and he's talking about when the adulterer confesses to Jesus as she was about to be stoned. Jesus says, neither do I condemn you. And Damien said, well, that doesn't make any sense. Here she was, a filthy sinner, one of the worst, and he admits, like myself, And she did absolutely nothing in that moment to redeem her actions. Nothing. How could it be? What sweet grace is this? It was a miracle. It was unearned love. Jesus like no other time in my Mormon life was becoming my hero. Yeah, I, I'm really glad you brought up the, the woman caught in adultery because his take on this is just so beautiful Often when this story is brought up by Latter-day Saint missionaries specifically, they focus in on, look, You, you have to live a sinless life in order to receive life in the better kingdoms. And that's what Jesus was telling this woman. It's like, yes, you're, you're forgiven, but now don't ever sin again. And what Damien realizes that's not what Jesus is saying here. What he focused in on is that Jesus didn't give her a big long list of things to do. In order to be forgiven, he just said, go. And now don't, don't go and live this life of sin. That that's not going to be any good for you. But he doesn't give her a bunch of rules and regulations that she needs to do in order to receive his grace. He just gives the grace and lets it work in her life. And, and he admits there, he starts to point his sights now towards the deception that he lived in, in the, I'm in 204, just about the middle of the page. Uh, that, this is when I started to learn that I had been a modern day Pharisee. Um, Just putting himself right in the application of this story and obviously as sinners we can admit that we have been these Pharisees in our own lives too. Yeah. And he kept having these encounters with messages of Jesus, both from Roy and Mary, but then eventually he They invite him to start going to churches with them. They do bring him to their church, but they also take him to some other churches, and it's while he's at church Hearing sermons that God's word really does start to have an impact on him. And what we see here is the power of God's word to take dead sinners and make them alive. To take blind men and make them see. And throughout this time, God was drawing him to himself. And we, we see that power in here. As we continue to think about this incredible story, God's story in Damien and Patty's life, are there any other just really practical things that you're taking away from this and your role as a Christian witness? Yeah, as I live my life, to pay attention to The issues that my fellow brothers and sisters are going through, to take note if they have a sick day, to take note if, Things aren't, because this is something that Damien mentions, if we go back to when he meets Roy and Mary, like, they were there through the hardship. And I think that's a practical thing for us Christians is to, um, Give up your own time and attention to pour yourself into the needs of others in their time of need. just be aware of what people are going through and share their burdens. Uh, practical advice. No, that's really good, John, and I think that's such a noteworthy one as we build relationships, um. Both online and in person with Latter-day Saints is to be there for those times when someone is going through a great trial or tribulation. And those are the moments often where the doom of eternity does weigh more heavily upon us. And we don't always have a good friend to turn to. And be able to really confide in, in those moments. And it's, it's awesome that God used Roy and Mary in such an incredible way to be those friends that were there for them during these incredibly difficult times in their lives. That God used to draw them closer to himself. Yeah. And, uh, today. In class we were talking to a member of the LGBTQ community who was able to come and talk about his struggle with sin and this idea of being A safe haven for people to take their issues with, take up their issues with, was very prevalent. And the scripture that popped in my mind was, Hebrews four let us therefore approach God's throne of grace with confidence. and so if we are told that we can approach our heavenly father with confidence, What is stopping us from approaching each other with our burdens? Confidently. and I think that's another thing we can continue to, work on. And I think as. We work on loving Our neighbor as we are loved by God. then we can start to branch out this idea of a family as well. And this might be the last practical advice I could possibly think of. But one of the major issues towards the end of the book is, yeah, when you leave the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, more times than not, you're an outcast in your family. And you're isolated and alone. but the verbiage he used, the adjective he used when talking about his new friends in the faith, he said, my brother in Christ, my sister in Christ. And part of what it means to be brothers and sisters in Christ is this idea of going to each other with our trials, with our needs. And as you listen to this conversation and eventually go on to read Damien's story, think about how you can apply that to your own life. How can you be a brother that goes beyond blood? but it's actually a relationship given by God. We are all adopted into his family. Beautiful. any final just, boy, I gotta, I gotta talk about this when it comes to this book or I wouldn't feel like I did it justice for the, the listener out there. I, I've got one that I can share as you're thinking, John, just at the, the end of that Jesus chapter, he just so beautifully brings everything full circle with his pursuit of worthiness, his pursuit of trying to find his place in this whole idea of the eternal family. At the very end of this chapter, he says, Jesus and I now we're intertwined, forever bonded and connected. He was mine and I was his. I was a son sealed to the father for eternity. I was adopted by my king. And I found that this was the only eternal relationship that mattered. I longed for nothing more but to grow this relationship and be in his service. Though I would now be his slave, he would treat me as nothing less than a perfectly loved child. There was absolutely nothing I did to deserve this unending joy, but he said I could have it anyway. Only the love of a perfect father could make that happen. The adoption was finalized, my past was erased, the debt covered by the one who paid it all. I would worship and love him for all of my existence, and he would always be with me. In a previous chapter, he described how. He eventually had to deal with the sin that he had committed all those years before as he was trying to get his records sealed so that What he had done in his youth was no longer going to be on public record. And he had to face once again the very words that he had written down about his grievous sins. And he no longer saw that man. he now saw someone whose sins had been forgiven and he was able to, forget about his own past in a way that It's pretty compelling because God no longer remembers our sins and doesn't hold them in front of our face. And he realized he doesn't need to either. And once those records are sealed, he's in a sense saying like, I don't need to see those anymore either. And I think that's another thing to just encourage us in all of our witness, whether it's to Latter-day Saints or anybody, is to help them see that in Jesus Christ, Those sins have been fully and finally and freely forgiven once and for all, and we don't have to carry that burden anymore. That was just really an impactful section for me. Yeah, that's beautifully said and beautifully written too. Yeah, any final thoughts? he discovers his identity. And it's through transparency and a lot of grace. Yeah. A lot of grace. Yeah, as with all of the books that we're reviewing right now, I am very comfortable saying go and read this book. This is going to really impact you as a Christian witness. Is everything in it written exactly the way that I would write it? Not necessarily. He now has a... A different background when it comes to his Christian faith than I do, and so certain ways that things were written, I might write them slightly different, but as a fellow Christian brother, I say Thank God for the work that he has done in Damien's life, crushing his shelf, first with the power of really his law, but then ultimately to rebuild him on the power, um, and the foundation of the gospel. Damien, if you're listening, thank you for being transparent in sharing your story and allowing us to come along on this journey of grace with you. Yeah, thanks for writing that down, Damien. It's definitely worth reading. Yeah. John, thanks for wading through this book with me and I'm hopeful and prayerful that it had a great impact on you. I know it did on me. I sat down and read this and pretty much straight through one day and I couldn't put it down. So. Yeah, and I think it was the end of the third chapter. I was kind of keeping notes for like the first half of the book. At the end of it, I just wrote, this book is going to take me for a ride. And it's, there's, there's certain things in it that are going to really sit with me and may take some time yet to sink in. And so just ways in which he articulated. The struggle of the Mormon, the struggle of the former Mormon is really, really helpful. Thanks again, John. Thanks to those listening. And thank you, Damien, for sharing your story with us. Have a blessed day. Take care.