Overview and Observations: "Tearing the Veil" by Michael Flournoy

In this episode of Witnessing Christ, Mark is joined by Grace and Charlie to explore Tearing the Veil: A Guide for Sharing Grace with Mormons by Michael Flournoy. This insightful book, written by a former LDS apologist turned Christian, is a practical tool designed to equip Christians to witness effectively to Latter-day Saints.

The conversation highlights Flournoy’s unique perspective as a seventh-generation Mormon who once sought to defend his faith but was ultimately converted by the very words of Scripture. The hosts discuss his strategic IRIS acronym—Impossible Standard, Reckoned Righteousness, Indomitable Gift, and Settled at Faith—which outlines a step-by-step approach to gospel-centered conversations with Mormons.

Together, they unpack key themes from the book, such as the burden of Mormonism’s impossible expectations, the transactional nature of LDS theology, and the transformative power of reckoned righteousness through Christ. They also explore how Flournoy leverages the Book of Mormon itself to sow seeds of doubt in LDS teachings and emphasize the importance of discerning each person’s primary “conversion type”—doctrinal, social, or spiritual—to tailor the witness effectively.

Throughout the episode, listeners are encouraged to play the long game in evangelism, patiently guiding Mormons toward a grace-filled understanding of the gospel. The team reflects on the emotional cost of leaving Mormonism, the importance of building genuine relationships, and the value of expressing personal testimonies that incorporate LDS language to foster understanding.

Whether you're meeting with missionaries, witnessing to loved ones, or just beginning to understand Mormon doctrine, this episode offers invaluable tools and heartfelt encouragement. Tune in to hear how Flournoy’s journey—and the gospel he now shares—offers hope, clarity, and true rest in the righteousness of Christ.

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FAIR USE NOTICE:

This podcast explores published works written by former-Mormon Christians, highlighting their journeys to faith in Jesus Christ and their insights into the transformative power of the gospel. As part of our episodes, we occasionally quote excerpts from these copyrighted materials.

We do so under the Fair Use provisions of U.S. copyright law (17 U.S. Code § 107), which allow limited use of copyrighted content for commentary, critique, education, and discussion. Our use is transformative, offering biblical reflections, theological analysis, and witnessing insights to help Christians share the gospel in love and truth.

Our intention is not to replace or replicate the original works but to provide thoughtful engagement that encourages listeners to seek out and purchase these valuable resources for themselves. All quoted content remains the property of its respective copyright holders.

Transcript

Welcome back to another episode of the witnessing Christ podcast. In this episode, we are continuing our series where we are giving an overview and. Observations of a number of books written by former Mormons, now Christians. This week I am joined by Grace and Charlie as we dive into another book. Welcome back to the podcast. Hey, hey. Hello. All right, this week we are tackling a book called Tearing the Veil, a guide for sharing grace with Mormons by Michael Flournoy. Michael is a great author, loved reading through this book and look forward to hearing your overview and your observations Would one of you just give us a little bit of background about Michael and then why he wrote this book. Yeah, so from what I gathered, it sounded like Michael's family had been in the LDS church for seven generations, so he went back for a while. he was In the LDS church for thirty-two years and was very passionate about it. He considered himself kind of an amateur apologist. and this wasn't, this isn't the first book he wrote. He actually wrote one on the other side. But yeah, he started to kind of dismantle his beliefs, based on kind of these conversion type of things that we'll get into later. He considered himself mostly a doctrinal Mormon, He appreciated the structure and the worldview that it gave him and it's kind of started to kick out from under him when he started studying grace. So that's of why he wrote this book on a guide for sharing grace with Mormons. Yeah, thanks for that overview. And as you mentioned, he had written a book to try and defend the Mormon faith. And then eventually as he's working to defend the faith, he actually gets converted by the very words of God that he was trying to use to destroy other people's Christian faith. Throughout the book, he gives us a little bit more of his background and kind of how different things impacted him. But for the most part, this book is really a guide for Christians on how to share their faith with a Latter-day Saint. I think you could give this book to a Active Mormon that is ready to start learning as they've started to unravel parts of Mormonism. I would not recommend giving this book to a very deeply entrenched Mormon. it's not the right audience. And I assume Michael would agree with that, that this book is really for the witnessing Christian, which is our audience for this podcast. So what a great blessing this book will be today. So. First thing we should probably do is walk through this acronym that Michael uses throughout the book to help guide The way in which he understands a witnessing approach. if one of you would just walk us briefly through the acronym Iris and how he explains this four step approach to sharing grace with Mormons. Yeah, So he starts with Iris is impossible standard. the letter I, God's standard for us is a standard which is impossible for us to fulfill and And seeing that the standard is impossible, hopefully the Mormon will recognize that they then need righteousness from somewhere other than themselves. Which then moves to the R in Iris, which is reckoned righteousness not that I can achieve on my own. Which I think is self-explanatory for biblical Christians. then he moves into indomitable gift, Uh, like all three of us had to look up that word, it's, it's a gift that can't be defeated or taken away or lost or whatever it might be. And then the final stage is, once I recognize that the standard God sets for me is impossible. That I've been reckoned righteousness by God. that that is an indomitable gift, which I now possess. I then can settle into my new faith as a Bible believing Christian. And then he still spends a whole lot more time talking about, Bringing someone who's leaving the Mormon church into a new faith and making sure that they have a new church home and new community cause it's not like all of your doctrine just switches then to your worldview may have. but they also need to be properly instructed and indoctrinated into the Christian faith. So, Yeah, iris, impossible standard, reckoned righteousness, indomitable gift, and settled that faith. Awesome. Thank you, Charlie, for that, that overview. And, and as, as we walk through the chapters of the book, we're not going to give you the whole book away. We're gonna give you a sample of this because this is a book that I think is worth getting into your hands and working through. One of the reasons I think it's so useful is As I witness to Mormons myself and as I equip others to do so, I think the more tools that we can have in our toolkit So that when we engage in a conversation and we're thinking, oh, this conversation's going in this direction, what can I pull from that I have learned or from other previous conversations or conversations that others have had? And so I don't think that I'm gonna be walking away saying like in every single conversation, I need to make sure that it exactly follows the four step iris approach. But in the back of my mind, I will be thinking through, all right, this person needs to really understand this idea that There is an impossible standard before we can move on to talking about the righteousness that has been imputed to us. They need to understand the problem before they're ready for the solution. So I think that's one of the valuable things here. In chapter one, before he really starts to lay this all out, he gives us some very practical advice as we witness. And I don't know if... Michael has read truth and love materials or he is just a kindred spirit. Uh, but he starts with two of our, pillars really of love them and respect them and then play the long game. Talk to me a little bit about the playing the long game as he described it there. Why is that so important for us as Christian witnesses? Well, I mean, this is so intensely frustrating and overwhelming to be having these kinds of conversations. and for a couple of different reasons, not the least of which is that, um, one, not every Mormon believes the same thing. They're not, they might paint that picture, but they are not united in faith. Two, you never know where the conversation is going to go and what their sticking points are or to use our language, what's on their shelf, right? Uh, and so it's not like you're going to go flip a light switch on and everything goes away. it's like a fog, right? They've got this brain fog of, uh, Mormonese that they've got going on and they just can't see clearly what even, as he demonstrates, what even the Book of Mormon is teaching. Um, and that was maybe the thing I appreciate the most about the book and something I've actually started implementing in my online conversations to a great degree already. Um, and he's proven remarkably accurate in his predictions of what's going to happen. Um, is using the Book of Mormon to demonstrate that what they teach isn't consistent with what they say they believe. and Also recognizing that not everything in the book of Mormon is wrong. Like there's a lot of things in the book of Mormon. Like, first of all, he quotes half of the book of Isaiah. Um, but second, um, there's a whole lot of teaching in the book of Mormon, which I mean, we wouldn't consider it to be the inspired word of God. And, and I, I'm, I'm the same Charlie where I really. Don't often use the Book of Mormon in order to make points about things that are true. I've used it more to make points about things that are untrue. And so he, especially in the first two parts of Iris, he is taking, especially the Latter-day Saint missionaries to the Book of Mormon to say, even the Book of Mormon is teaching these things. So that they would agree with it and then he'll go to the Bible with it. Um, so again, it's, it's playing the long game in the sense that he knows that usually a conversation, a single conversation with a Latter-day Saint missionary or anyone. Is not going to lead to them giving you a big hug and saying, I agree with everything you're teaching. Jesus is my true and only savior. I trust in him 100%. That this is going to take time and I really appreciated that throughout the book he describes his own struggle and his own journey that this took years of unraveling. And it, it, it helps us to understand that this is the way that Satan draws any of us into unbelief is by through outright deception or half truths that keep us in that fog that you were describing there. And so. It's not that our Latter-day Saint friends or missionaries are any less mentally capable and aware than any of the rest of us, but that's just the way that Satan works. So he starts after kind of outlining those three things of just loving them, respecting them, playing the long game. He helps us understand as he goes into conversations, he really tries to assess right away which type of conversion into Mormonism The person that he's speaking to has had, um, grace, can you unpack that for us a little bit of what's he talking about there with the three different types of conversions to kind of be aware of as we engage in conversations? Yeah, so basically what a conversion is for him is what is the main thing that's supporting what they believe or that's keeping them kind of in Mormonism. So for a doctrinal Mormon, it would be, well, I believe that the tenets of Mormonism are true, like It makes sense. The worldview makes sense. I believe it for that reason. A social Mormon is more one who believes that like the LDS church is godly. They're upright. Everyone has good moral character. So they stick with it because of the good influence that they're having on the world or maybe that it's having on their life and a spiritual Mormon. Um, is really linked more towards the validity based on emotional experiences. So I've had these, you know, feelings. Feelings are very important. He, he does mention that every Mormon Does have that spiritual component because Mormonism so often relies on what you're feeling and promptings and that such. So spiritual Mormons are kind of like the baseline Mormonism, but then social or doctrinal are more on the outskirts. He mentions that not a lot of Mormons are doctrinal and a lot of the times when people leave the LDS Church, they kind of blame it. Others will blame it on doctrinal reasons like, oh, you just like Logicked your way out of the church. So almost having that like doctrinal basis of like, I know the scriptures, this makes sense. All of that is almost looked down upon, um, from what he said. Yeah, that was, that was fascinating where they intellectualize their way out of the faith is often a criticism is, oh, you just did too much research and now you don't believe. And one of the things that he mentions throughout is no, I did a lot of research and that's why I don't believe this, but it's also now why I believe something else that's even better. That's better. Yeah. Um, another thing was kind of like you can kind of tell which type of Mormon you're talking to based on like how they promote their beliefs. So I thought that was really fascinating. So like a spiritual Mormon might say like, Well, read the Book of Mormon. You'll, you'll get these feelings and like pray to know that it's true. And so pushing very much like pray about it, have the feelings. That type of thing. Um, like I said before, for a doctrinal Mormon, it's more about their worldview. And so if they, if they really want to understand what's being taught and why you believe what you believe, that's more and more doctrinal. Um, and then social like, well, I have this whole family history with Mormonism and we're all good citizens and the morality is so good. Um, or they might talk about how their leaders are inspired and like. They might blur, like, culture and doctrine. but then he also goes on to say, okay, like once you've recognized which type quote unquote of Mormon you're talking to, like this is the approach you should take with them. And I, I think this can be good and hard at the same time. Like, if you're playing that long game and you're talking to someone more one-on-one, then I think finding out which type of Mormon they are and focusing on it that way could be really helpful. But if you're talking to multiple people at once or doing more of the online thing or just like at the door, it's gonna be, you're not gonna be able to play that game as much. I would agree with that. I was thinking of those two applications there, Grace, too, are please open the door participants, those that are meeting with missionaries for weeks on end. Probably will be very valuable to really ascertain that with the missionaries. But when we go and knock on doors in Utah or Idaho or Arizona, and we're maybe going to talk to. twenty people in one day and some of those conversations only last five, ten maybe an hour at most. Um, I don't want to spend time even in my own mind. Trying to analyze which type of Mormon this is. I want to share a specific law and gospel message that is as clear as possible to a more general audience. But yeah, but long term, I think a very valuable thing to think through. That's part of what I was talking about when I said how overwhelming, even as wonderful as this book is, and I really like it. I mean, I've put it to use right away. It's perhaps the most useful tool I've been given so far. Even that being said, especially like where Grace was pointing out where you're going through all these different like conversion stories and whatever, it's just so completely overwhelming. Yeah. Um, and I don't know if you guys experienced the same feeling, but it is how, how am I at like, okay, great. This, I'm sure this is a great strategy for a guy that grew up Mormon. Um, but for a guy that didn't grow up Mormon, there's no way on earth I would be able to identify these things just off the top of my head consistently enough to then be able to carry them into a conversation. Um, and so I thought about that a little bit more. And frankly, if it was in like a bullet pointed list, it might be like, then you can just scan through it and be like, oh, this guy, because Grace, tell me if you experienced the same thing, but when I, as I'm reading through these, cause I'm reading through these chapters like one or two a day and then jumping online to do my job. Right. And answer comments and things. And I read a chapter talking about how different, uh, these people are, are social Mormons. These people are doctrinal Mormons. These people. And all of a sudden it just becomes so obvious in some of their comments and messages. Like there's one lady I've been messaging back and forth with over and over and over again. And she just keeps coming back to the same buzzwords over and over and over again. And so that clicks in my head like this lady doesn't care about the doctrine. Like, okay, I'm going to shift my approach then. Right. Um, and then he gives me the, the, the roadmap to do so. Um, and the same thing, I had a guy say almost explicitly, this is the most Christian church on earth because look at all the things that we do. And he posted it the same day that I read the chapter where it, you know, talked to, so, um, like really, really useful from that perspective. But it took me a little bit to get over, frankly, how intimidating all the different categories and things are. Charlie, I'm glad you, you bring this up because I, even though I've been doing this for four and a half years full time, I felt the same way. And I think you, you hit the nail on the head. This is an approach that works very well for Michael. Because of his upbringing, his background, his experience, his expertise. And each of you listening and each of you talking right now, you have those two. And I think that's one thing that I do find valuable in a book like this is we can learn From the way in which another person carries out conversations, but we do not need to have that same exact conversation in order to be a faithful witness. But we can glean from previous conversations. I don't know how many times even over the years when I've gone door to door. The young person, the high school student that I was with eventually came up with an illustration that I had never used before. And now I've made that illustration an illustration that is in my toolkit too. And that's where I see the value of a book like this is not to say like we have to follow this very specific roadmap in every conversation or we're not being faithful in conversations, but. This is an approach that works very well for Michael and we can draw parts of it and add that into the way in which we naturally have those conversations then or in specific places like you said, like, oh, I remember this and now I can apply that. Yeah, I would say though, Charlie, I kind of made my own bullet pointed list to help me conceptualize it because it was just a lot and I'm like, I wish it was like, okay, This is what they are. This is how they promote their beliefs. This is this. This is, I wish it was all just like chunks together, like everything social at once, everything doctrinal at once, you know, instead of kind of mixing it all together. But, um, as far as being able to recognize who's who I, I'm meeting with two missionaries right now and then an older woman from their church that they brought along and like, after reading this, I was like, oh my goodness, I think I have one of each type. With me, which then again where I'm saying like it's hard to use this approach if you're talking to more than one person because should I be. For example, it says you should emphasize the beauty of grace and the simplicity and appeal to logic if you're talking to a doctrinal Mormon. Well, if I have two other people sitting there, is that what I want to do? Or if it's social, like, try and bring them into the Christian community to show them that there's community and love and support elsewhere, not in the Mormon church. Well, that's maybe not going to be the approach for these two male missionaries or like the spiritual use like your experience language and point them to the relationship you have with Christ. Obviously, I think these are things we can do in any of our witnesses like incorporating all of those but as far as picking one approach to kind of hone in on doesn't seem the most practical every time. In fact, I would even argue that it's a strength of the LDS that you have this plurality in their witnesses um, and it's a Give the devil his due. I mean, he designed an excellent false religion here. Um, and he knows what he's doing. And he's created something that captures hearts in a variety of ways and then holds people captive in a variety of ways, um, which makes our simple gospel even more powerful, but it will take time and effort to get to the point where we can share it. Yeah, well said. We're not going to take time, nor do I think we nor do we want to look at every chapter in this book, but The second chapter is titled Deciphering the Mormon Code, a Translation of LDS Soteriology into Plain English. So he's really outlining for the Christian witness very clearly the Mormon plan of salvation or plan of happiness and provides just a few, Good questions to ask when it comes to that plan of salvation. Was there anything in this that you would have said, you know what, this, this was new for me, or this helped me really I understand that whole plan in a way that now I can ask a intelligent as well as useful question when it comes to the plan of salvation. Was there anything in chapter two, Deciphering the Mormon Code. that jumped out at you? I think one thing mentioned, and this is like right at the end of the chapter, so we can definitely talk about more stuff, but he said Christianity, like our language has a lot of like dichotomies like heaven or hell. Redeemed or damned, but Mormonism has more nuance, and so sometimes when we're talking to them, they don't see it as black or white, they see a lot more gray, so that can make It really hard to have these conversations and to realize that they're not confusing, like they're not trying to tell you something black is white. They just don't see the differences. So I thought that was helpful to remember. Yeah, maybe that's a good way to think about it is just being colorblind. if we can get them to put on the glasses, they'll see color. But right now they're colorblind. Um, it took me a while. Starting, and we've even talked about this on the podcast before, it took me a while starting this work to get over my tendency to not, I wouldn't even say argue, it's just debate. Um, and, and the way I'm driven is like, I want to, I want to test everything all the time, I test ideas. I test people. I'm testing everything all the time. That's the way God put me together and God be praised for it. Um, which Makes a lot of apologetics just drive me absolutely up the wall because if you really test these ideas, they don't hold water. Um, and so Um, he provides kind of a framework to step back out of that, uh, like testing of ideas thing. Like I'm not forcing you to test your ideas. Here are some ideas that maybe you should test. Um, he kind of forces them into that position just by making them clearly define their terms. And then again, this is a, this is an intimidating idea if you're having a conversation with more than one person at a time. but if you can keep track then of what their definitions are. And then just point out when they contradict and not in an accusatory way, just saying you said this and I understood that and I even agreed with it, but now you're saying something else and I don't see how those two things can be connected. And just saying that does not make any sense to me. So can you help me understand that? then all of a sudden they're put in a position where One, they can't be mad at you for just not understanding what they're saying. and two, it forces them to think critically about their own thinking. which is where we want them to go because eventually what they're going to have to do is turn back to the word. Good thoughts. I appreciated the word understand that you used to there several times, Charlie, I've been doing that more and more where I will even use that word the way that I understand what you're saying is this. How do you understand it? Help me understand the way you're understanding it This is the way I'm understanding Mormon doctrine. How do you understand it? Then we can have a conducive conversation. Michael uses a question in the section that Is one that is one of my favorite questions to ask. He says, on page thirty-eight if you really want to cut to the heart of the doctrinal differences, ask a Mormon what must be done to have eternal life or exaltation with the father. That will force him or her to put all their cards on the table and have a real discussion. Thanks, Michael. that's my favorite question to ask too. So well done. Yeah, I liked the other question he asked too, where it seems like if they're just agreeing with you about like everything, like it's at the bottom of page forty-one right? So like, are you saying the church didn't need to be restored? Just like, okay, like, show me where the differences are. And I feel like that could be something interesting. I haven't tried that, but it could be interesting, especially if they're giving definitions and you're like, okay, this is what you're saying. This is what I believe. They sound the same. So do you think the church didn't need to be restored or show me what's different here? we've talked about when we're talking to Mormons especially missionaries in person. You get a lot of that's beautiful. I love that. Those kinds of affirming statements. I mean, you can kind of get lost in that because they're not disagreeing with you and they're trained not to. They're trained very well not to. they are very well trained, especially the guys, when they're getting towards the end of their two years, they're good at what they do, man. They're good at what they do. and they're really good at not engaging. Like you're not the first Christian they've interacted with. So they're really good at not engaging with your ideas. Um, and so when I started saying things like, oh, that's beautiful. I love that. Even just following that, like in the spirit of what, um, Michael was saying, followed it up with, well, what's beautiful about it? Like, oh, you love it. Good. What do you love about it? Like, tell me, tell me about that. and either they're caught being insincere and they're going to have to own that or they're going to have to, think critically about what you said. Thank you. Let's take a little bit deeper dive into the four parts of the iris and we'll kind of work through the chapters that focus most specifically on that. So chapter three is The impossible standard and this really begins what Charlie was alluding to earlier where Michael uses the Book of Mormon. Quite expansively in the way he outlines this impossible standard because the Book of Mormon in some places very clearly shows The impossible standard that God has for us. What else in this chapter was significant or Put in a way that you thought, I'm gonna put that in my toolkit or draw from some of this language or some of his way of carrying out this part of the conversation. I feel like one thing he said right off the bat was that like this impossible standard is the bad news of the gospel. And I'm like, no, that's not the gospel then. That's the law. But, that was a very small thing. so a lot of the times they talk about like doing their best and like, well, I'm just doing my best and God will accept that. But on page forty-nine He said, if doing Our best means we're still sinners, then according to the Book of Mormon, they can't expect God to reach out and save them, because that's not enough. And I felt like that was a really strong thing to drive home. I've had one person on Facebook, quote, that passage from Alma eleven that's saying you cannot be saved in your sins and he uses that again and again so if they want to bring it up, then use it to drive home that if you can't be saved in your sins and you're a sinner, then what do you expect? Right. And then even going beyond the Book of Mormon, he quotes Doctrine and Covenants eighty-two verse seven which says, And now, verily, I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge. Go your ways and sin no more. But unto that soul who sinneth, Shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God. Apparently, the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith taught, total depravity because, once a sinner, always a sinner is the mantra here. and which one of us Hasn't sinned. and even the best of Latter-day Saints acknowledge that they have at some point sinned. Even if they now have left their sins behind. But anyone who sins will sin again. Is a pretty startling reality if you believe that in order to access salvation, you must become godly first. Yeah, that's where he's going with these Book of Mormon quotes is to say, like, if you want God to do something through your doing, it has to be perfect. The standard is perfect. You have to abandon it all. And that Is a genius approach to using the Book of Mormon to really show that even the Book of Mormon is not giving this, oh, do your best or try a little bit harder or strive to keep the commandments. It's no, you either do it or you don't. And a lot of the times lately I've heard, well, you just repent and then it's better. But that passage from Doctrine and Covenants is like, well, if you repent, then you mess up, then all your sins go back. You know, so just enforcing that again, like this is what your doctrine says. And then later on the next couple of pages, he quotes another thing from Alma, Alma thirty-four Verses thirty-three to thirty-five and in it, it basically says, like, if you don't repent in this life, then you don't have repentance in the next life. And so a lot of them will say, well, I'll keep, like... They have an extended timeline. Like, I can just keep repenting. I can get better and keep progressing throughout the spirit world and say, well, if you don't repent now, you don't have that chance. What else in the impossible standard is noteworthy? he had one question that I like to ask, if we're good, naturally, then why do we keep sinning? Or why is it so hard to be obedient? just bringing that point up, they say we're children of God. So we're pure basically from birth. So we've got that ability to choose the right. So go and do it. Yeah. Yeah. also, he ends the chapter with the suggestion that you should ask a Mormon, if it's possible to be perfect, why haven't you done it? And basically says don't expect a conversion on the spot. Don't expect them even to react. They'll probably actually have an answer for you. talk about a stone in a shoe. Well, why haven't I done it yet? It is possible. Why haven't I done it? Um, or even have I ever met anyone that was close to that? Yeah. I asked someone, do you know anyone who's perfect? And they were like, well, a child. And I'm like, okay, even, even if. I agree with you, which I don't, even if I agree with you that children don't sin, then why hasn't any adult that you know met that standard? I appreciated the way in which he closes with really saying that the Mormon gospel is a gospel of Amputation. Essentially, we must rid ourselves of all earthly things, passions, desires, and sin. We must live worthy lives and establish our own righteousness. we have to amputate certain aspects of our life, the sinfulness from ourself. And he's going to contrast that gospel of amputation with the gospel of imputation when it comes to righteousness. And that has been one of those just clever little phrases that has stuck in the back of my mind is, yeah, we, we, we gotta cut, cut, cut parts of ourselves off and that's not what the true gospel is about. I thought one last thing from this chapter, um, on the last page of it, but he says it's important to remind your Mormon friend throughout the conversation that you aren't nihilistic, but to understand grace you first need to understand. How futile the effort is, because I have found that if you're just pressing the law so much because you realize that they need to understand that the standard is impossible, sometimes it just keeps dragging on and you're like. They're probably just thinking that I am depressed over here. Like, I'm just saying you can't do it. You can't do it. It's impossible. I'm not doing it, you know? And so just to remind them, like, we are going somewhere past this. I just need you to see this first. Yeah. As we think about that, that difference between the gospel of amputation and the gospel of imputation, let's skip ahead to the chapter on reckoned righteousness. So chapter five is the second letter in his IRIS acronym. Unpack the R of Iris for us what stood out to you in his approach? Yeah, warming them up to the idea of imputation by talking about their temple work is kind of a good way. Like, you already understand what imputation is because when you do temple work, that work is credited to someone else. So that's what we're saying Jesus is doing is Jesus did the work and his work is credited to us. And he said, you know, they're not going to agree with you, but they'll probably at least understand your position if you talk about it that way. And the whole chapter, it's just asking the question, what exactly did Jesus do? if what you're telling me about myself is true, then why do I need Jesus? if I can be perfect, then why do I need Jesus? If the expectation is that I'm perfect and he gives me the ability to become perfect, then why do I need Jesus? if putting in a good effort is enough To give me eternal life, why do I need to be resurrected at all? what exactly is Jesus doing for me? and he keeps demonstrating that there isn't really a clear answer to that other than the Christian answer. Yeah, I love some of his terms of phrase. This is on page eighty-six right after he quotes from Jeremiah twenty-three which ends with, The Lord is our righteousness. The Lord is our righteousness. Not we are our righteousness, but the Lord. He says, Explain to your Mormon that Jesus wasn't just some exemplar to follow, so we could become worthy by emulating him. Through his reckoned righteousness, giving vicariously on the cross, he is our righteousness. Uh, Jeremiah twenty-three five through six is one of my favorite verses to go to where we're talking. He's using this picture of. David is a righteous branch and then eventually transitions into those days. Judah and Israel dwell in safety. Why? Because the Lord is our righteousness. He goes on to say that there's two questions that led to his own downfall. How far did reckoned righteousness take me? And what was required for me to get it? I think kind of building off of that, putting the stone in the shoe idea that you were Talking about earlier, Charlie, that that's a stone in a shoe concept that we, we need him to kind of get to think about like, all right, as I think about what Christ has done, How much did he do? And how much do I need to do? And then how do I get what he already did for me? How does that become mine? And so often in Latter-day Saint theology, everything that Jesus did still requires your effort in order to get it. And so as he's transitioning into the latter parts of his conversation is to say, no, these things too come as a gift. It's not just that the work he did was a gift, but the acquisition of it is also a gift. Maybe just another very helpful tip for our Christian witnesses, bottom of page eighty-seven as he's just describing how hard this is. He says, a wise man once told me that asking a Mormon to convert... To Christianity is like asking him to die. And that is true. There is nothing more agonizing than watching everything you love falling apart and everyone you love turning away. Um, I, I love that Michael was able to just give us the heart and the soul of what this struggle is for the one that's wrestling in their faith. Anything else on chapter five with reckoned righteousness before we look at this indomitable gift? All right. As he transitions into this part of Iris, he does give us a little bit of background into how This really impacted his own journey to Jesus, um, where he really starts to think through, okay, if there is a righteousness that is reckoned to me, that is imputed to me through the work that Jesus has done. What do I need to do to get that? And he asks, he says, a nagging inquiry question came into mind. If Jesus kept the covenant path for me, Why was it necessary to walk it again? If Jesus has done it all, then what am I doing trying to do it all again? And I think that's just another really good place to try and get our Mormon friends to. What in this chapter was said in a way that was impactful or a turn of phrase or a quote or a Bible verse that you found important? in a later chapter, he said, you know, if their mindset of, oh, if you're given this for free, then wouldn't you just keep sitting? And he said, just ask them, like, do you have anyone that loves you unconditionally? It's like, okay, sure. Do you want to rebel against them at every chance you have? Like, is your goal to just, you know, like, no, of course not. And just putting that into relational terms, like, is your... If you love your spouse unconditionally, are you trying to do everything possible to not love them? Like, that just doesn't make sense, even in human terms. So why would you? And of course, he says, like, the only reason they think that is because They don't actually have that motivation of grace, of true grace. Absolutely. There you go. Let's go back to this idea of the indomitable gift. And I want to take a look at page ninety-four where. He asks a really valuable question that I have already used and that's, he says, ask your Mormon, are there any blessings that Jesus doesn't deserve? They will confess that he is worthy of everything. Ask this next. If Jesus is worthy of all blessings and his righteousness is counted to you, then what are you worthy of? It will only take the Latter-day Saint a second to realize that such an arrangement would make them worthy of every blessing. And he's really going on to say like, this is, this is the heart of the matter. Like, if Jesus has done everything that was necessary in order for you to be made right with God, and he has given that to you, and he is worthy of all things, That also makes you worthy of all things. Not at some future point when you've put in effort, but right now. And ultimately that leads into the next part of Iris, which is, all right, so how does that become Iris? And we'll talk about faith there. Anything else, though, before we move on to how this is settled in faith? Anything else here I thought one thing that's not as much talking about in Dominal Gift is showing like the LDS perspective. As he said, he, he tried to explain the gospel to his younger sister. And she thought about it and then she said, well, you're right that Grace is amazing, but there's always more. And then he talked about, um, Some lyrics his brother wrote once and it was like Jesus is my first step toward heaven, my first step toward eternity and just showing that difference like the end goal isn't the same and Jesus isn't the same that. Jesus is the gift, not a stepping stone. Love it. So that became his big wrestle in his own life is, all right, if all of this has been done for me and I deserve everything that Jesus deserves, so what does it take to get that? And he has a few chapters where he already starts to anticipate some of the rebuttals to this. We're going to leave those for you to read at some point on your own if you'd like. And we're gonna jump ahead to chapter eight, which is about faith and how in this whole process, We've got the impossible standard, reckon righteousness, and the indomitable gift. And now we arrive here at the end, which is settled at faith. So the S is settled at faith. What was noteworthy in this topic of settled at faith? I think he hit the nail on the head, uh, with the LDS attitude when he said, um, on page 128, Mormons will enthusiastically agree and make it all about That faith is trusting God and make it all about works. We trust God, they'll say, that's why we follow the path he established and undergoes saving ordinances. And it makes you want to facepalm, right? Right. Like, no, you're missing the point is I trust that God has already done it or I trust that Jesus has already done it for me. Um, it's not that I trust God has given me away. It's not trusting God, like, in a general way, which maybe is a case. There's a case to be made for Christians being more Accurate with their words. Um, instead of saying, well, I love God or I trust God. Uh, what exactly do you trust? And what I put my faith in isn't. The fact that there is a God, I'm not just assenting to the fact that there's a God. What I've put my faith in isn't that Jesus died for me even. What I've put my faith in is, um, The fact that Christ has told me he's made me a promise that his blood atones for my sin. That there was a substitutionary atonement made. That's what I trust in. Um, and so then I could say maybe I trust in the word capital W. And that would encompass both the Word of God on the page of the Bible and then also the God behind those words. That's, and the reason he has revealed himself to me at all in any way is so that I might know that his blood has atoned for my sin. That's what I'm putting my trust in. Um, and so anything other than that is completely beside the point for me and for my heavenly father, because it. I don't want to say it doesn't matter because it does matter. Um, but the whole point of the scriptures, the whole point of faith is that I believe and I trust that what he said is true. And what he said is I already took care of it. I thought one simple thing he said, which I don't know why I hadn't thought of it before, is like, they view faith as faithfulness. Like, anytime they're hearing faith, what they're thinking is faithfulness. It's not just trusting, it's doing. So. Yeah, even in his description on page 131 where he describes what that was like for me, for him, he says, when I was LDS, I thought of sin as a giant tar pit that I was drowning in. I imagine that Jesus stood at the edge with his hand outstretched, but it was up to me to swim over and take his hand so that I could be saved. So his faithfulness in swimming through the ordinances and the works would get him to Jesus and then Jesus would reach out and take his hand. He, uh, he brings up Matthew seven twenty-two and twenty-three which is the parable of the sheep and the goats, um, which says many will tell me in that day, Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name and in your name cast out demons? And oh, maybe I'm wrong about the context. Um, but Jesus says, many will tell me in that day, Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name and in your name cast out demons and in your name do mighty works? Then I will declare to them, I never knew you depart from me, you who work iniquity. And he continues by saying, you can almost hear the indignation in this verse, the accusation of these people as they cry. What do you mean we can't have salvation? We paid for it, didn't we? The problem with this mindset is it turns obedience into a currency to enter heaven. Yeah. I thought what followed right after that where he was saying, like, if they are really saying that Jesus is sufficient and he talks about, um, well i guess this was kind of in the context but he was talking about abraham sacrificing isaac and saying how they make the big point to be that abraham sacrificed him like he was obedient and he makes the point that Abraham wasn't trusting in the fact that his sacrifice somehow was going to be the work. He was trusting in the fact that God told him. That there was going to be this plan for him. And by doing this sacrifice, he was, in a sense, getting rid of God's plan. So instead of trusting in the plan, he was trusting in God instead. And so he makes this point of saying trust the promise giver instead of You know, the plan. And so he says if if they're saying that the promise giver is who they trust, then say, well, if you stopped doing your ordinances, couldn't God still do it? So he kind of had, like, that challenge, like, why isn't Jesus sufficient? Like, lay down your ordinances and see if God can still work. And he said they probably won't talk to you for a while after that, but... I thought that was a very bold approach of saying if Jesus is actually sufficient, if God can actually save you, not by what you've done, then lay down what you could do. Absolutely. And I appreciated that in the end, he does spend so much time talking about. Abraham and the relate the true relationship between faith and works because ultimately almost every conversation that I have been in with a Latter-day Saint will go to that. All right. The Bible talks about works. What is their proper place in the Christian life? And they often want to go to James chapter two and point to this story of Abraham. And as I've said many times, I relish that opportunity then to go back into the book of Genesis beginning with chapter twelve And then specifically chapter fifteen and Michael talks about this too, where we need to show them at what point was he reckoned righteous. It wasn't after he sacrificed his son. It wasn't even after he was circumcised. It was prior to all of this when he believed and the faith was granted to him and eternal life was guaranteed to him. And I think that's, that's really like bringing this full circle is really, we, we need to bring them to that place of saying, yep, now in his life as a believer, as he learns to trust more and more in God. God is asking him to do things not to gain eternal life but because he already has it and in order to benefit his faith in growing stronger and that of other people around him. It reminds me of Philippians if anybody thinks he has a reason to trust in the flesh, I have more. And then Paul just goes through this giant list of all the different things that he's done. and all the different reasons why like the family was born into the education he received. he's a Pharisee. So, and I've gone through this list before, but he's a Pharisee. So he has a special diet and he wears special clothes and he worships in special ways. all of these different things that he does, he even persecutes the church. he sounds a lot like Michael actually. he looks at all of it and he says, this is nothing. This is worthless. This is loss. if it costs me Christ. And so I leave all that behind and I press toward the goal. And even, even Paul says, and somehow I gained a resurrection. It's a mystery we cannot understand. Um, and yet the fact that we cannot understand it doesn't make it less true. Make it less true. It is true. Yeah. Great thoughts. As we kind of wrap things I want to spend the last little bit here just On two things, number one, just looking at some encouragement that he gives us when it comes to our conversations as he calls with your Mormon. And for many of those listening that your Mormon might be a friend, a family member, or a missionary. And he talks a lot about what to do when they drop their testimony. And I thought he had some really good insights I really appreciate how he starts this chapter where he's saying like, if they drop their testimony. you may feel like all your progress has been undone. But in reality, this is all a show. It is a display of their resolve intended to make you back off. The testimony is the weakest point of their faith, the final barrier standing between them and the uncertainty of apostasy. If they are playing this card, especially in the place of a logical answer, they are very desperate indeed. Thank you for just the way that you phrased that, Michael. Really impactful thing, especially for us as we witness to those Latter-day Saint missionaries. He goes on at the very end of this chapter to really outline the way in which he gives his own testimony. To them. And I'm not going to read through this whole thing, but if you read the book, you'll see how beautiful this is. But he really takes LDS language. And makes it his own in a beautiful biblical way using words like testimony or restoration or priesthood or endowment or proxy. And just ties these all into his testimony. And so I think my encouragement from this personally was, I've thought through What my testimony would be if I get that opportunity and as often just comes kind of off the cuff, but what if I, what if I spend a little bit of time writing that out? Or at least giving myself some bullet points like Michael does here that would really use Latter-day Saint familiar language in order to drive home this is, this is who I am in Christ. Um, this is what I believe. Any further thoughts on that LDS testimony section? I mean, it certainly has proven effective personally. When we took that trip down to Arizona, um, boy, those are the most powerful conversations I got to hit because they're curious, And they will leave doors open oftentimes for you to talk about your faith. and, uh, even just the, okay, thank you for sharing what, what you believe. Do you mind if I share what I believe? And they will nearly always say yes to that. Um, and so if you are able to clearly express not what the catechism says, not what you hear in church on Sunday, but tell them personally. What your relationship with your savior looks like. That's a powerful thing because they're not, they're not thinking about what Bible passage or what book of Mormon passage or what passage from doctrines and covenants refutes that they're just listening. and you're just talking to them as people and humans. And when it really comes down to it, um, if I see the people in front of me the way that Jesus sees them, which I pray that I would, I see them also as redeemed children of God, just like me. And if they don't know it yet, then boy, now I get to tell them that. And I can tell them what Christ has done for me and at the end of it say, and he's also done it for you. That's a powerful message. and the Lord is at work in that message. Amen, brother. Any final thoughts on the book? Something that we either missed because there's so much in it or something that you just have to say like, I can't. Not say this in this podcast about this book and any final thoughts on the book that you want to share with our listeners today. I I have found a great value in tearing the veil because it's written from the perspective of a guy who's LDS. And he starts out the first chapter by saying. Doctrine in the LDS is a moving target, so we're not even going to aim at the moving target, we're going to aim at their hearts instead. Um, and He does an excellent job of just keeping his sights on the goal, creating windows for the, for the truth to be told. Good insights. Grace, anything from your seat at the table? he talked about playing the long game, it took him thirteen years to leave the church, And even after five years of realizing Mormonism was wrong, it It was five years before that decision to leave wasn't agonizing to him anymore. Like, he was having nightmares about it and, the last section of the book talks a lot about like basically loving the Mormons who leave Mormonism so loving the ex-Mormons and just supporting them in that and just realizing that. They will lose a lot. He lost a lot of things coming out. And I think just having that overwhelming love for them and just Showing them how great Jesus' love is for them as well. That Jesus is greater than anything they could lose in supporting them in that, but. Beautiful. Well, thank you both for taking the time to really dig into this book. And I want to thank Michael for writing this book. If you would like to pick up a copy of it, you can easily find it on Instagram. Amazon. So again, it is tearing the veil, a guide for sharing grace with Mormons by Michael Flournoy. Um, Thanks again to those that are listening. We're so thankful that you have a heart for reaching the Latter-day Saint people in truth and love. We look forward to continuing this conversation another day. Have a blessed day in the Lord. Thanks, everyone.