Conversations with Former Mormon Authors: Brandi Bronson

In this episode of the Witnessing Christ Podcast, we sit down with Brandi Bronson, author of The Journey to Jesus: Finding Christ After Leaving Mormonism. Brandi shares her powerful story of growing up in a devoted LDS family, her eventual unraveling of deeply rooted beliefs, and how she came to know the true gospel of Christ. With honesty and grace, Brandi opens up about the emotional, cultural, and theological challenges of leaving Mormonism and the radical shift that occurred when she encountered the real Jesus of the Bible.

Alongside evangelist intern Calvin, Brandi discusses the pitfalls of relying on feelings as truth, the role of evidence and humility in her conversion, and the importance of asking the right questions when witnessing to Mormons. Brandi's insights will challenge and equip Christians to better understand the LDS mindset and lovingly point others to the sufficiency of Christ's righteousness.

Whether you're engaging with someone currently in the LDS church, supporting a questioning friend, or simply wanting to grow in gospel compassion, this conversation is both eye-opening and deeply encouraging.

Listen now and share with others seeking to reach Mormons with the true hope of the gospel.

Transcript

Welcome back to another episode of the Witnessing Christ podcast. Today I am joined by Calvin. And by another Ex-mormon Christian friend, Brandy Bronson, author of the book The Journey to Jesus Finding Christ After Leaving Mormonism. If you have not listened to our Overview and Observations episode on that book, we'd encourage you to go back and listen to that. Either before you listen to this one or after you listen to this one, you'll get a lot out of it either way. Calvin, Brandy, thanks for being on the podcast today. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited. Yeah, this will be fun. All right, Brandy, give us your history in the LDS church and your journey to finding Jesus? Okay. Sounds good. well, I had a very traditional LDS upbringing. I was born and raised, in the covenant. My dad and mom were both active LDS. My dad came from a large family, He had ten siblings. and he was more of the analytical Mormon. he knew the Book of Mormon really well. And, he served a full time mission and met my mom at Ricks College, which is BYU-Idaho. and so they, started off as a normal traditional Mormon couple, got married in the Oakland Temple, had four kids. I was the oldest girl. and I just loved being LDS. I was always really sure about who I was. and I had this desire my whole life as a mormon, to just tell people about the restored gospel. I felt a burden to do so, actually. And I made it a point to be friends with a lot of non LDS. And it's not just I mean, I enjoyed them. It wasn't just that I wanted to, witness to them, but, I felt like so much of the LDS culture was really cliquey and I wanted to rise above that a little bit. And so I was blessed to live in an area where there were a lot of LDS, but a lot of non LDS, and so I kind of gravitated more towards the non LDS and, and sometimes my mom was worried because she was like, are they going to bring you down to their level? But I was like, mom, I got this. I'm going to bring them up. So, I was never really interested in drinking or partying or any of that stuff. I really was sure about who I was. And when I had friends go through kind of testimony issues or doubts in high school, I would go on long walks with them after church and talk them through things. And I really did feel like I knew without a doubt that I had the truth. So I was always very confident in that. I went through Young Women's. I got baptized when I was eight. I did all the traditional things, and I had my eye on the prize to get married in the temple. I was always excited to get married in the temple. That was my goal. I was taught that that was the most important thing I would ever do is marry the right person at the right time, in the right place. And, I just wanted that so bad. So I knew that the best chance of me finding my eternal companion would be at BYU. So from a young age, I knew what college I was going to go to. Um, and I didn't even apply anywhere else. So when it was time to do that, I. I left my home after giving Book of Mormon to all my friends and some teachers that were close to me, and, went off to BYU and did that whole thing. Got married in the temple while I was still a college student. Um, and had three babies, blessed in the church and just lived a very traditional LDS life. It sounds like your parents, um, spent their early years in California. Is that where you grew up then? Yes, I grew up in California. um, my mom actually started off as a methodist, so she had an interesting background because she had she had tried Christianity, and she always was the first to say, you know, that Mormonism offered something that Christianity did not. So I didn't ever really understand a lot of the specifics as much as I just was like, well, yeah, you know, and it and it further confirmed to me that we had the truth. So, for example, um, when the Mormon missionary showed up at her doorstep, she was an early teen and converted her whole family. They all got baptized and some of their extended, um, relatives as well. It was really easy for them to get rid of the tea and the coffee and the alcohol. And they lived, um, the traditional Mormon lifestyle. Well, um, but it was things like the pre-existence and the idea that a loving God would never really send anyone to hell that really stuck with her. And so beyond those specifics, I didn't really know what was so different about Christianity, in her view. But, for her, she just said, you know, I just know it. And I this was a profound experience with the missionaries. So I really, um, derived a lot of my faith from from her testimony. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. And growing up outside of the the Utah Idaho Mormon bubble, can you think of how your experience was different growing up LDS from other LDS, that you've met over the years that grew up more inside the bubble? Did you have a a different sort of experience? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I would say that, if I had just stuck with LDS friends, which I could have, I would have probably experienced some level of the same type of cultural pressure that others did because there's this level of, what to wear and what to say. And, there's a lot of pressure that way. And I could have surrounded myself with that. And I kind of resented the manliest of the Mormons because I felt like I was on ground zero and I would go to church on Sunday and, you know, I would do all the things, but yet I really believed in it so I could go out and be friends with the non-Mormons. Kind of like Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles. I felt that call. And so I almost rejected that cultural pressure in some ways. And I think that has a lot to do with my mom, too, because she really encouraged me to do that. she was talking to a man one time. and was kind of bugged because he was like, you're a mormon. Like, Mormons don't usually talk to non-Mormons, and I'm a non-Mormon. And it really bothered her. And I sat there and we both basically conceded that he was he was right, that this was a cultural issue in Mormonism. and she was like, I think that it should be different. I think that that's not what Jesus would want for his church. And so that really stuck with me too. So yeah, I saw some of the cultural issues of Mormonism, and I rejected those things, but that didn't ever cause me to doubt the validity of the church. And I went to BYU, so I know that the culture was different. there was so much horizontal motivation going on where everyone was worried about their image and their reputation. And I can't speak to all LDS, but I felt that pressure. to look extra squeaky clean Thank you. Thank you for that. So You're talking about how you recognized some of the black eyes of the Mormon culture and how at the time even said, hey, I'm not really with that. So You're not a part of that, that faith tradition anymore. You're here now. What's it like to leave that kind of environment? in your book, you talk about how when you would watch other people leave the church, you'd watch some sort of crash and burn a little bit and that sort of strengthen your testimony. You had these, common excuses that these people just wanted to go sin, that kind of thing. could you speak a little to how how it was to leave when when those cultural factors are there? It's well, it's psychologically heavy because I knew how I felt, like you just mentioned. I almost relish the fact that people fell apart after leaving the Mormon church because they didn't have the truth. They didn't have the plan of happiness anymore and them falling apart. I thought, well, this is proof, that the Mormon church was was true, and if they didn't fall apart, that would have made me go, wait, what? You don't need the Mormon church to have a healthy, structure to your life. and a lot of people do fall apart. I fall apart after I left the Mormon church. And that's what's hard is seeing. Oh, they're falling apart because their entire worldview is crashing down and the rug is ripped from under them, and they're having to reconsider the most basic premises of their life. And that is uncomfortable and terrifying. So when I left, I knew what people were saying about me, It was like, oh, she's really political. And her politics let her out, or she must have just wanted to, be trendy and wear tank tops, I just felt like all of these reasons that I was hearing, I was going. No, like, you guys don't get it. But the hard part is, is that no one asks those questions, and I didn't either. You don't actually want to hear why people are leaving you. You don't want to go. Well, what is it that made you leave? This is the most important thing in your life. Why would you turn away from this? They don't ask those questions. It is a really awkward thing. the bishop showed up. The Relief Society president texted me, obviously the primary president trying to get my daughter back into things, and I was just awkward. I was ambiguous, I was weird, I didn't know what to say. And at the beginning I wanted to use soft language. I heard you should use words like, I'm just taking a step back, or I'm just figuring things out because as long as the door is not all the way closed, you're not completely shut out. unfortunately, you become the project of the word, right? So all of a sudden, your name is popping up everywhere because you're struggling and you're becoming an active, and they're going to try to get you back. and that was that that hard part for me where I was like, I just want you guys to leave me alone because I'm out, but I don't know how to say it. Interesting. So we have, people listening right now, people in the LDS church or Christians who are maybe either going through that exact phase you're describing or interacting with somebody who's going through that exact phase. So do you have any have any advice to help either the Christian witness who has a friend who's leaving the LDS church or even to that that LDS person, his or herself. do you have any advice Yeah, that's a great question. I know that people are in different circumstances, but I would just say that the pressure that you feel right now from your community is nowhere near the freedom that you can find in Jesus Christ. And I don't remember who said it, but someone recently said that Mormonism essentially breeds atheism because when you you see the problems in the church and you start stepping away. you believe the Bible is corrupted and it's either the church or nothing. And so you don't have a good foundation outside of the LDS church, which is another reason why there was so much pressure to stay, because it's like, well, what's the alternative? So I think for them to know that they don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater and that it's okay. It's hard I would say God had to melt my heart. He had to melt my heart down before he could, show me who I am and why I need him and who he is. And I think that people are like different kinds of metals, like metals have different melting points. And we're not just all in the church or all out of the church or all atheists or not. We're on degrees. And I think that meeting people where they're at, and loving people, despite the things that they might be saying about you because I said those things about Ex-mormons and I'm not there anymore. And so, I would say a lot of the times it's easy to get resentful and angry at your community because you are doing the hard thing. You're looking at things from a perspective that you never thought you'd look at them, and it's so hard to see the truth for what it is and what the implications of that truth mean for you and your family and your community. And you're looking at people who aren't willing to look at it with you, and you're going, like you're looking down on me, that I'm spiritually immature, I want to sin or all these things. But you're not looking at this with me. And I even had a friend from the ward, the only one who actually talked to me about this. She didn't ask me the specifics of why I was leaving, but she did let me know that I would come back, and I found that to be very patronizing at the time and I was like, you're not even willing to look at the things that I'm looking at. And I would have rather, at that point, not known what I was coming to know about church history. So it's kind of like, you don't know what I know, and you don't care to know what I know, and yet you're going to sit here and tell me that I'm sure going to be back. And it feels almost suffocating because you can't really talk to them about the stuff, and they don't really ask. But yet everybody's assuming things. And so it's hard. It's so tricky. I also had a friend being like, you know, I'm never going to look at that stuff you're looking at because, that's how Satan gets you and essentially was implying that Satan was influencing me. And so I learned very quickly that there were a few people I could turn to in these really dark moments. I'm grateful to God every day that my husband was one of them, but I understand the the hurt and how hard this could be. but please understand that a counterfeit Christianity cannot have the final say with your walk with God, focus on your relationship with Christ. and love people despite some of the things that they are saying behind closed doors about you, and know that God can change anyone's hearts. So that would really just be my prayer for those people. yeah, I like that. The gospel. The gospel does a lot of things. And in this particular way it's tough. Like you just were describing this legalistic mindset. I mean, there's so much baggage with that. But I love what you say there. Just, the message of Christ as as scary as it is to step out of those those waters you're familiar with, he can help so there There was one little phrase that you mentioned that I'd like to ask about. You have a really powerful way of writing. You have these little these punchy lines all over the place, which which was really fun to read. and so I'm gonna I'm gonna read this quote to you, and I'd love for you to expand a little bit on it. You say, if you were to have asked me ten years ago if the LDS church is not the true church, would you want to know? Honestly, I would have said no. I didn't just believe the church was true. I needed it to be true. Could you speak to what exactly that means? What does it mean that you needed the church to be true? what a great question. I would say that the Mormon Church defined every aspect of who I am, from where I came from, why I'm here and where I'm going. And when you believe that it's the LDS church or nothing, there are no other options. So I didn't have the ability to question whether it was true on that on those grounds, because I didn't. I felt like even if and you hear this all the time online, even if the church isn't true, I lived a good life. I did good things and at the very least, I had a moral system in place for my children and So I honestly think that if you were to ask me, do you need the church to be true? I wouldn't have even really understood the question because it was like, well, it's irrelevant because it is like, that's what I would have said. but knowing my mindset then and now, I absolutely, if I were to be honest with myself, needed that identity. I needed that purpose. And those questions in this pretty box of I was a pre-existence who became a spirit child who was here for these reasons. And these are the clear rules I must follow in order to meet this potential. And so, that was the worldview I had. And it influenced and transcended to every aspect of my life. So it needed it needed to be true. I needed the church because it was who I was. So that was my mindset. Wow. So this might be this might be an impossible question. okay, what advice would you give to a Christian that would help them have spoken to you in a more helpful way, that kind of thing. No, that's a great question. Um, I think just asking questions that really get to the heart of the gospel. Who is Jesus Christ? What does salvation mean to you? And right after I left Mormonism and I was exploring Christianity, this like light bulb moment went off when I was like, how is it that I believed I could be saved and yet damned all at once? Like, it just didn't make sense anymore. So I think just asking questions that would really bring the heart of the gospel out. Just ask enough questions where maybe they realize, that they don't have the answers as sure as they think they do. because sometimes when they say, like, for example, I was so sure that Constantine created the Bible, I would have told anybody to their face that Constantine created the Bible. And I had a lot of passion for this concept. And did I know anything about it? No, I knew nothing. And so if someone would have just stopped me and went, how do you know that? I would have been like, what do you mean? And how do you know that I, I would have just had nothing. I would have had to make something up because I bought and sold these slogans from my church that the Bible is unreliable and that, there's this apostasy and all of these things where it's like, did I really ever look into that? No, I didn't, and I had so much fervor behind these opinions. So sometimes just asking a latter day Saint questions can unravel their own theology right in front of them. You don't even need to do anything else. You just say, hey, how do you know there was an apostasy? Because the entire presupposition of the Mormon church is that there was an apostasy and a loss of authority. How do you know that that really happened, and I don't know how I would respond as a mormon, I didn't know how it happened, or I would have said, oh, well, you know, we just after the apostles died, oh, how do you. Have you looked into that? No I haven't. I could not have, defended those ideas adequately. and that's why a lot of the times I just didn't listen. I just shut down because I knew what I knew and I felt what I felt. And so I was safe in that, in my own little head. Brandi, I love those simple questions that you were just presenting us there. Tell me. Tell me what you know about the apostasy. Where did that come from? How much should a Christian witness continue to pursue that line of reasoning? Or would it be better to just ask one simple question that puts just one little item on a shelf, or one little stone in a shoe? Or how much? When you realize, like you've gotten someone to really think about something. Do you continue with that? Or is it better to just back off a little bit at that point and maybe move to something else? Yeah, I think that's a great question. And I think you should back off because overwhelming, them is going to go, you know, alert, alert. There's warnings going off we need to shut down. So I think coming from the perspective of like, hey, my church did a series on early church history, and I learned so much. Um, you know, from your perspective, I know that the latter day Saint believes in an apostasy. What can you tell me about that? Like what? What does that mean? And how do you know that that happened? and and maybe just leave it there. And if they, they say, I don't know and be like, okay. And then move on because for them they're going to go, wait, I don't know. And you know that that might be it if you have 400 questions for them. it's going to come across as more antagonistic than it is genuine inquiry, Yeah. Great thoughts. Thank you. All right. Maybe the flip side of that When you were in that staunch phase, bearing your testimony to your Christian friends in high school and whatnot. What misconceptions did you have about Christianity that you've now since come around on, Um, it makes me smile thinking about some of these interactions. I had, specifically with a girl named Marlo. and, I remember asking her, so if someone just repented on their deathbed, they get to go to heaven. She's like, yeah. And I was like, are you serious with me? That is outrageous. I'm like, they lived an entire life of sin, and then they just get to feel bad at the very end of their lives because of course they do, because they're scared. And then they just go to heaven. And she's like, well, if they're genuine, if they if they genuinely come to Christ, then absolutely. and she reminded me of the thief on the cross and I'm just like, I'm sorry, this is the cheapest grace I have ever heard of in my whole life. No. Thank you. You haven't done anything to earn anything, so that's ridiculous. and I also saw this obsession with the cross as super irreverent. I would drive by this church that has three large crosses. It's actually the first church I went to after I left the Mormon church. Um, but I grew up seeing it on the freeway, and I just, I remember my mom and me just scoffing at it and just oh, so degrading to just think about the murder weapon and how offensive that was to us and our, reverence towards the living Christ. And so, I would say the cheap grace, the cross, the deathbed conversion, I thought it was so binary about heaven being heaven or hell. And it made sense to me that there were degrees because, to be so binary in this heaven and hell just it made zero sense. And so this is another thing, as a mormon, you kind of hold two worldviews at the same time that are contradictory. One is that Mormonism is more advanced Christianity. We have the fullness of the gospel. So Christians are playing little, little church games, and we're up here with the true authority. and we are we're killing it. We have the fullness. We have all the keys. But in the other sense, I truly believe what Joseph Smith claimed happened with the first vision, which is that all other churches erred in doctrine and that they were abominations in the sight of the Lord, and that they they were all wrong. So those both can't be true. I can't just have a higher version of Christianity than you, but then also at the same time, your foundation is completely rotten, you know? So those those are actually contradictory. And I held both of them at the same time. So that's the way I thought. I'm really appreciating us camping out on this, this space in your journey. because so many of the individuals that were seeking to reach with our Jesus is Enough side of the ministry are those that have one foot in, one foot out of the LDS church. but talk through that weird place that you were in where I no longer believe Mormonism is true. I don't yet believe that Christianity is true, but there is still a desire for truth, a desire to, in a sense, know who God is and have a relationship with him. But so many that are coming out of Mormonism don't actually have a belief in God, because the God of Mormonism doesn't exist. So help us just unpack that if you can. talk to us about that whole in-between place. I'm very fascinated by that place right now. Yes, yes, I think there's many in that space right now, and I would love to speak on that. So I think this also has a lot to do with the time in which we're living right now, where there's a lot of moral relativism and a lot of you do you, you live your truth. And so I kind of started there where I was like, can I just live my truth? And I saw so many people now that I allowed myself to go, I would I listened to an FLDS woman, a fundamentalist, bear, her testimony about how God transformed her life, and she had a sure witness that she was going to be a polygamist. And I heard that, and she was using a lot of the same rhetoric that LDS use when they bear their testimony. She sounded exactly like the Mormons that I grew up. She sounded like me. And so that hit me so hard where I was like, If God is confirming all of these different, you know, feelings and different people or whatever it was, confirming these feelings in different people. We can't all be right. And so I got to this point where I felt very liberal in my approach. It was very, I would say it's really trendy right now to go, hey, you know what? Wherever you're at on your journey like not only are you enough, but live your truth and you know, if it's going to be Buddhism, then great. If it's going to be atheism, then great. Like we're all just trying our best. And so I felt really trendy. I was like, that's right. Like I'm just going to do the best that I can. My, my husband and I, we really felt like, so we love camping. And we were like, you know what? We're never going to go to church again because, you know, paid clergy, you, you know, like, why would we ever go there? So, um, that's evil and of the devil. So we're not going to church. We don't really know what we believe. My husband was still a staunch believer in God. Again, I don't think he even knew what that meant, though, because again, we only had one perspective of who God was. but for me, I felt like, yeah, I'll go find like a force. Like I was interested in, just connecting with with the universe or whatever. And so, you see a lot of this new age stuff popping up in Mormonism, too. Actually, there's a huge origin story of New Age occult practices in Mormonism, funny enough. But, but you get the sense of like, I'm just going to, find my truth and live that out. And so I, I wanted I wanted to believe that I really did because I was like, yeah, we're all equally right. That lasted maybe three hours because I really thought through it and I was like, this, this doesn't make any sense. I cannot live in my truth and someone else live in their truth, and somehow that what is truth even mean then like that doesn't even make sense. So I kind of started to realize that regardless of what I thought really happened, of how I got here and who I am, there is some capital T truth out there as to why the Earth exists and how we got here. And it doesn't matter what I believe. That doesn't change the truth. And so I started a very basic fundamental understanding of like, what does it mean for something to be true? What is truth? And so I sat there and God was just doing things in my heart and in my mind, because all of a sudden I had this relentless itch to just like, I mean, I was kind of a mad woman. You should ask my husband. It. It was like there's papers everywhere, there's books being purchased everywhere, and my hair is crazy. And of course, I'm a hot mess because I just left Mormonism, the year prior. And, by that Christmas, I was so broken and so unsure of everything, and I could not even hear the name Jesus. Like, it was such a trigger name for me because I. I didn't believe in him anymore. And I thought that I knew him for my whole life, and I. I thought I really was serving him my whole life. And so hearing his name was was just too much for me. And, at the time, I was so uncomfortable with all of it. And so my kids were all excited and we'd go to these Christmas things, and I just I couldn't stand hearing his name. I didn't believe the miraculous conception and all the stories. And if Joseph Smith could trick people into believing he was a prophet, then Jesus definitely had people fooled. And I was angry and really bitter towards Jesus in particular. and so, If there was a universal creator, it wasn't Jesus. And, so I totally believed in the resurrection as a mormon, and I believed in the crucifixion and all that goes along with that. And that's a lot of the times why you hear Mormon will say, we're Christian because we believe in a lot of the same facts about the resurrection and his earthly life and his ministry. So when I left Mormonism, I attributed everything I'd ever thought about Jesus to just pure feelings and fabrication. So I guess, when I was LDS, I would have said, yes, the resurrection was something that I felt happened, but I'm at the point where I'm not going to rely on my feelings and just say, wouldn't this be great if God took on flesh and died for our sin? Yeah, that feels great, I guess, but that doesn't change if it's true or not. So I had to start in an evidential aspect of it, Thank you so much for that, because I think that that's helping me understand, and hopefully it will help our Christian witnesses understand that coming from a background where so much of your faith system is based on experiences, now, you want evidence. So much was based on feelings, Now you want facts. And I think there's a part of me that's always wondering. Why don't you want that before? how is there this place of cognitive dissonance where you don't just want to know the facts and want to know the evidence even while you're still in the church? Maybe. Maybe you got some thoughts on that. Yeah. when I was LDS, I was thinking, if you have to go find evidence for the Book of Mormon or, that if I were to look at things from an evidential standpoint, I'm. Not having enough faith. So I actually thought that the more blind, the more. Valiant. Um, and if I were to have to go out and rely on any type of historicity or archaeological support, that I didn't have the witness that other people did. So. So what if there have been a fear there that this could lead me out of the church? The more I know will lead me away? I've heard that from some. That there's a fear. There. Was that fear there for you? Yeah. Well, like my friend said, like, oh, if I look at this stuff, it's, you know, Satan's going to get Ahold of me. And so I guess that was kind of my mindset to where it's not that I thought that looking at the historicity or the archaeology would lead me away as much as I thought, man, if I'm not relying on what I knew through the Holy Spirit and I'm looking at other things, secular people could lead me astray. People could be wrong all the time. And so just because there might be a lack of evidence, I didn't think there was. At BYU, I learned that there was archaeological support for the Book of Mormon. Um, I didn't really know specifics. I was just told by professor that there was. And I was like, great. And that's as far as it went. I didn't ask what it was. So, for the most part, it's not that I thought I would leave if I looked at it as much as I thought I would be manipulated by nefarious forces if I looked at it, Um, it was almost like I was opening up a world that I didn't want to open up, because I already knew it was true, and the Holy Ghost was already with me. And so, I didn't want anyone who was bitter or had an an a bias against my, my belief system to to manipulate me. Alrighty. Well, thank you so much for all of that. You you have so many good things to say and there's so much more I want to talk about. Um, but I guess just kind of simply put, now that you're on the other side of this, what's what's your favorite expression of the true gospel in the Bible? It's it's one message told in many different ways. Old Testament stories and history and prophets and Jesus and all the letters and stuff. Uh, but it's the same, same gospel message. So I guess just what's a what's a favorite now? Oh, that's such a good question. Well, of course, we have John 316. Right. And what I love about John 316 is that it's whosoever believeth, not whosoever you know, emulates to the nth degree, or whosoever is going to go through the temple, um, will receive eternal life. But that God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whosoever believes shall not perish but have eternal life. And it also lays out that people will perish, and that we need to be serious about who we put our trust in, um, another beautiful example of the gospel is Romans when it says, by one man's obedience many were made sinners, but by one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. And so it shows us that even though we've all failed in Adam by one man's obedience, through this imputation, we can be made righteous through Jesus Christ's righteousness. And that is not a righteousness of our own. That's not something that we can generate for ourselves. I think everyone knows that if there is a holy God out there and that we're going to be held accountable, we not only need to be sinless, but we need to be righteous. And so Jesus isn't here to just take away our sin as long as we are repenting, um, he's also giving us his righteousness. We're either going to have to generate our own righteousness, or Christ is going to give us his. And so I am so grateful that Christ can impute his righteousness upon me through faith alone, because otherwise I was not meeting the mark. Even with all my repenting and church going and temple ordinances, I wasn't meeting the mark. And so at this point, I'm just grateful to know that Christ loved me enough to die for me, but also that he lived for me. that's a beautiful thing that we spend a lot of time at Truth and Love talking about is that in our witness to Mormons, we need to focus not just on what Jesus took away our sin, but also what he gave to us in his righteousness. Because that is a major difference between Mormonism and Biblical Christianity. The Jesus of Mormonism, that's your example, is not giving you his righteousness. You need to earn that for yourself. So thank you for that. That beautiful statement. Yeah, absolutely. so we we have three different arms in our ministry. We have Be Perfect. its target would be those who are maybe more firmly in the LDS church. We have Jesus is Enough, which we've talked about a couple times through this podcast. Those who are struggling or doubting Have one foot in one foot out of the LDS church and then truth and love, helping Christians witnessing to Mormons so we have those three different groups of people in mind. So I guess without going too far into the weeds, Do you have something to say to each of those, those three groups of people, those who are who are firm in the LDS church, those who are struggling. And then lastly, something to the Christians who are witnessing to these Mormon people. Absolutely. Uh, well, first, to the staunch LDS that are in, as we see, a shift in the LDS church, especially towards mainstream Christianity, where we're basically denying the apostasy at this point and a need for restoration. I would just ask you to consider, now that I see more Christmas become Christian. Why is it that so many are saying I have found a new Christ? I found a different Christ. And I found a different gospel. A lot of the times you'll hear, well, no, we're all Christian. I would plead with you to sit down with someone who's left the LDS church that is secure in their Christianity and is willing to share with you and ask them what is different about the Mormon Church and the Christian church, because they have a unique perspective on both sides, and that's going to be really scary. But if you are going to maintain that Mormonism is Christianity and that you are true and you are right, then I would ask, um, don't be afraid to go sit down with an ex-mormon Christian and just ask what what those differences are, because a lot of us are kicking and screaming and saying, hey, we've got something over here that we want you to see and we want you to experience. And I just pray that your heart is more open than mine was, and that if you answer that you want the Mormon church to be true more than you want the truth. genuinely ask yourself, if the church isn't true. what would that look like for my life? knowing that it's not all or nothing, I would just love for you to consider that there is something that is true. I know a lot of the times you're going to hear quotes from the LDS leaders. Where would you go? What would you do? it's it's us or nothing. And I would just challenge you that there is something beyond Mormonism and that there is a true Christianity. And if Mormonism is a counterfeit, that doesn't mean there isn't a true Christianity. It just means you haven't found it yet. Right? You have a counterfeit without a true one. So, um, I would just plead with you to please read my book. I try to be very respectful and I try to meet you where you are. And I really did write it in a way that's like, if I were a believing Mormon, could I stomach this? and I actually had my BYU professor who's a believing Mormon, read it. And so he actually used to work for the apologetics arm of the LDS church. The fair. Um, and I wanted I said, hey, am I being fair on this? Uh, ironically, am I being fair? Um, am I am I am I misrepresenting? And he said, no. Absolutely not. You know, you you said it. And in a way that I don't think is is too negative and it's, it's accurate. And so, um, I would I would ask you to please consider hearing the testimonies of those who have left and who claim that it is a different Christ and a different gospel and genuinely ask, why? Why are they saying those things? And you succeed in that. Absolutely. Um, you are very fair in this. And like like we mentioned before, there's no anger, there's no bitterness, So, yeah, your book would be a good place to go. Um, what about the struggling or doubting one foot in, one foot out member of the LDS church? Yeah. I would also like to echo that it is not the LDS church or nothing, that you can take that step. That is very scary to take and that Christ, in the end is worth it. And I love in Philippians when Paul says, indeed, I count everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus, my Lord. He is worth this trouble. It may not feel like it right now. but God is with you. He's not just going to wait until you're perfect to show up and wait till you're clean. Um, the Holy Spirit isn't just going to come and go as you sin and, you know, and then you're good again, and you sin. You're good again. there is so much security that you have never been aware of or felt before, and you can only find that when you find Christ. So I just, I, I also would implore you to find a community in which you have people who have had your background or at least know about Mormons and kind of like what you guys are doing, find people. Because I used to see Christians, um, specifically pastors who knew about Mormonism, talked about Mormonism. And again, I thought, like, get a life, man. Like, you guys just want to take down the one true church. And now I'm thinking, where would I be without these resources? I don't know if I would have come all the way here without so many People like you guys who are supporting those who don't yet know the biblical Christ. And so, um, I would really just I would recommend reaching out to a community. There's a lot of Facebook communities. I have a very little humble, Instagram page. And, I have some resources on there as well, which your guys's resources are included on there where it's there's people out there who want. I have so many Christians who have never been Mormon, who are reading my book right now so that they can talk to the LDS missionaries and they can talk to Xmas, and they can speak the language of Mormonism. And I think that's so beautiful. So again, I just want to echo. There are people who want to help, and there are people who want to walk with you. And you might be losing one community, but God put so many people in my life once I decided to leave that, are just the exact people I need And so he meets you where you're at. And, um, so, yeah, that's what I would say is find a good community. They're out there. Yeah. Thank you. And and speaking of people who want to help, speaking of people who might be able to offer a community, what would you have to say to, to folks like us, the Christian witnesses. Yeah. I mean again, I would just echo that these people aren't projects that these are um, these are people who genuinely want to know God and think that they have the gospel. And so I would say, especially since we know the majority of Mormons are operating on a foundation of feelings and personal testimonies through what they believe is the burning of the bosom and experiences like that that are very subjective. I would say it would be so important to love these people where they're at and speak into their lives in ways that are personal to them. Not every Mormon is the same. And also, like we were talking about earlier, sometimes it's just a question and then you can let it be. Or sometimes it's you showing up before any other board member and they're like, man, why does Calvin keep showing up? And he's just like living this, but like he has a corrupted gospel. So why am I seeing Jesus so much in this guy? You know, this doesn't make any sense. So I think just making him known in how you live your life and, also loving them. And again, when you ask them questions, a lot of the times gear it towards the opportunity for you then to say, yeah, see, I see salvation as life with God and know we're not just going to be playing harps forever. And no, this isn't going to be super boring. But you know, God is the highest, greatest being, and we can't even fathom what it's going to be like to be with him forever. It will never be enough. Um, you know, and having and maybe even understanding what they see wrong with being with God for eternity, you know, and saying, do you think this would be boring and why? And how do you view God and and just getting to know them on that level will just allow them to open up to you. And once they know that you you understand them, because a lot of the times Christians will come to me and again, they would talk my ear off and I'd be like, you didn't go to seminary. You don't even know my religion. Stop talking to me about it. Like, stop. You know what I mean? Like, I have no idea what you're talking about. So I, I think a lot of it has to do with relationship Yeah. Thank you for that. As as you're talking through all this, I I can see how what you're saying there would be very helpful, applicable. Um, anyway, mistakes I've made and all that. It's just that's good stuff. Um, pastor, do you have anything, anything you want to add or ask? Any last threads you'd like to pull? Oh, so many. But maybe just one here at the end. Brandy. That. One of the struggles that a lot of our Christian witnesses, including Christian pastors, are having right now in this space is we're seeing more and more people leave Mormonism and step out the back door. And they're just, kind of wandering around in this in-between place, looking out at the Christian world. Um, and it's a I don't know how to even explain this quite properly as, as the Christians and the pastors start to interact with them. They're finding this tendency that the average former latter day Saint doesn't really want to be taught anymore. and as they start to study the Bible, they've got their preconceived ideas of now this is what the truth is. And I've given up on the Mormon doctrine. But now I have my own, in a sense, interpretation of what true doctrine is. And they've really given up on being willing to be taught. And I get where that comes from, where if your entire life someone's been telling you to believe this, you're going to have a hard time trusting someone else Mhm. What would you say to those Christians and those pastors in that space as the person is really I don't want to go to your Bible class. I don't really want to listen to sermons. I, I really know the Bible well enough. What would you say, help us in that. Gosh. And it's such a hard mindset to be in. And I know the hurt well. And I think the origin actually isn't intellectual. I think it is emotional. I think it's there's so much anger harbored still. And even right now in my personal life, one of my siblings, we had an amazing gospel conversation last week, and my sister even started going to church with me recently. Um, I wouldn't say any of my siblings are believers. they all left the LDS church and, have gone through some of them very, intense feelings and seasons of anger, atheism, all the things that most LDS leaving do. I'm the only one so far that has come to Christ in my family besides my mom. And, I see each of them at different melting points, and some of them just need to sit in that long enough. Because for me, I had to work out things in my head for a while, and sometimes people coming to me and pressuring me beforehand was the worst thing that they could do, because I wasn't emotionally available. So sometimes I feel like God puts you in places where the best thing you can do is share the gospel, and sometimes the best thing that you can do is just say, hey, I'm always here and if you have questions, you know, I'm here to answer those. and I'm praying for you. And I'll show up and and just be their friend. Because what I've noticed about some of these people is they have to sit in it long enough. And I've seen a turn in some of them where all of a sudden, like last week, having this conversation with my brother was like, I was just crying when I got home because I was like, I didn't even sorry, I'm getting emotional. I didn't even see this for him. He was so angry. And so, um, I, I just pray and God works and he's real and he does miracles. And if Paul, who's murdering Christians, can, you know, change his life, then no one is too far gone. And so there has to be a point where God can reach your heart. And that's above our pay grade. So we just I, I would say for pastors, prayer is number one too, is just showing up and reflecting Jesus. I actually got a tattoo. I know this is crazy, right? Guys? I can't believe it. I got a tattoo. I left Mormonism and Ex-mormon with a tattoo. No, I'm. It's like it's so cliche, right? Um, I got a tattoo and it has a mirror on my wrist, and it's my new garment, essentially. But it reminds me that, I am not generating my own light. Like C.S. Lewis says, a moon doesn't generate the sunlight. it. reflects it. Right. And my job is to reflect, God, to the world. And so especially with my brother. Like we would have conversations it didn't seem like it had anything to do with Jesus. It was just, dude, what do you think about string theory? And then we talk about string theory. And at the very end I'd be like, isn't it so crazy that it's like what Einstein says? Like, the most incomprehensible thing is that the world is comprehensible. Like, why do we think that? Why do we think it's comprehensible? And and that would be it. And then like a week later, we talk about something. We're always talking about science and this and that, and I'm meeting him where he's at. And then I'd be like, dude, do you think that nothing could have made consciousness? Like, how do you think that happened? And and just meeting him, they're not going on the Jesus train. Because believe me, Mark, I went on the Jesus train. I rode the Jesus train to the ground with my family where they were like, yikes, I don't want to hear this anymore. And I started to back off and be like, okay, because you have to learn to read the room. Hopefully we read the room right? And we're like, they're not there and this is not fruitful. So I would say try to figure out where these people are at and then slowly start a conversation in which a lot of the times, like, I know for other people in my family, it's not that they don't believe in God, it's that they are very angry at God, that they are so hurt and they're so confused, and they project that as well. He's not real. Like I don't care, you know. And they do. They they genuinely do and they're hurt. And so I would say just show up in a way where all the cliche things that we hear about Christians and all of they're, they're so bigoted and they're so exclusive and they're so they have no fun. You know, I want to go with fun. I've never had fun. I was a mormon. I didn't have any fun. Now I'm going to go have fun. I'm going to do all the things that I never got to do. And you know what? I have had friends and family members who went all out, did all the things, and it's almost like you kind of have to let them off the leash. And then at some point there is this settling that I see. but, um, I think for some people, they just need to go through life experiences to the point where they're like, oh my gosh, I've been through X, Y, and Z. And it's like what Augustine says, like, my heart is restless until it rests in you. And it's like, and you know, C.S. Lewis talks about this too, where it's like, you get the good marriage and then you get the boat and you get the yacht, and you get the all the things. And then at some point you go, man, this isn't satisfying the way that it was at the beginning, you know. And so I think some people need to live it. And then they go, oh my gosh, what is life really about? And then all of a sudden, boom. There's a humility that just wasn't there before. And it clicked for me. I've seen it happening in other people. So I would say pray for them and I would say be friends with them, love the crap out of them, and then also talk about things that are indirectly related to the gospel. You know, if they're at the point where they're agnostic, meet them there. Don't start talking about Jesus yet. You know, start talking about, uh, just the the cosmological argument. You know, have you heard of this? I was thinking about this the other day, and then, move on. You know, love it. One of the things that's going to sit with me, Brandi, is just your your melting points metaphor. And I think how helpful that is for us as Christian witnesses to understand God's timeline in all of this, too. And I just sense that you're in a very good place when it comes to your your own family when it comes to God's work in their heart. And so often we want to put a timeline on someone's conversion, and that's where we get frustrated when we're starting to think, well, I gave them the perfect apologetic argument. I gave them the perfect cosmological argument. I gave them the perfect. This. Yes. Why aren't they coming to faith in Jesus? And that's again putting so much pressure on ourselves and on our work, rather than the work of the Holy Spirit. And so, uh, Brandi, just thank you for the grace with which you wrote, um, again, her book is The Journey to Jesus Finding Christ After leaving Mormonism. Uh, you can find it on Amazon pretty easily just by searching the journey to Jesus. Brandi Bronson. Uh, one of the things that I just want to emphasize is I sense in your book, and from the way that you speak, that God has led you to a place where you now marvel at his existence in a way that previously was unthinkable in Mormonism. And that's one of my hopes and prayers for all of our Christian witnesses, is that we are brought to this place where we first ourselves, marvel at God. And I think that's a word that we we, you know, we use the word awesome way too much in our culture. And I want us to talk about marveling at God and what he's done for us. And part of that you mentioned in your book, Brandy, where you you had to be brought to a place first of acknowledging who you were and your own depravity, It brought you to a place of humility where you had to see the depths of your problem before you were willing to see what a great Savior you had. And I think that's one part we didn't really pull at that thread today much, but that's why I would encourage people to read this, is to really see how God worked in your heart and your life in that way, because it's so instructive, but also encouraging for the Christian witness to see that sometimes you got to hit rock bottom in yourself before you can actually fall on the rock of who Jesus is. And what a beautiful thing that is when we start to marvel. So thank you for that. I don't know if either of you have any any final thoughts that you just need to share with our listening audience or each other. But this has been a true joy, and I hope it's not the last time that we're able to to sit down and talk like this. Calvin, anything thoughts as you're wrapping things up here? So. So the cover, the journey to Jesus finding Christ after leaving Mormonism. If you look it up, there's there's two gentlemen looking at each other, and I remember I it puzzled me who who are like, what? What I guess what is the two here? Are they both Jesus. Is it? I guess, anyway, what's what's going on with the cover here? A kind of a lighthearted question to end, but I was confused by that I am so glad you asked that, Calvin. it is a little tricky to figure out. Um, I was trying to be kind of, like, poetic, and my girlfriend, Andrea, she showed me, like the idea that she had of two, two Christs, you know, looking at each other kind of thing. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is so brilliant. And I said, and you know why it's so brilliant is because this whole book is about how I was walking with this one Christ, who I thought was biblically sound. but so one of them is Christ, the way that I used to see him, and he's looking at the other Christ. And so it's pulling apart the fact that a lot of the times, especially today, you're going to hear that we worship the same Jesus. And I think one of my proclamations besides Christ Crucified and Christ resurrected is that knowing him is salvation, and that we to know him, we need to be humble enough to say, God, who are you? And that Jesus asks us, you know, who do you say that I am? Who he is the object of our faith matters. And so making that a a pivotal point in my, um, conversion, and then to put it on the cover of my book was like, this is the essence to know Jesus Christ and to make him known to others. And so they look at each other and it reminds me that they're different and that we might have a lot of the same words, but we're not using the same dictionary. And does the truth matter? And if Jesus is the truth, then we should we should figure out who he is, and we should submit ourselves humbly to his lordship. So that is why you will see two Christs on the cover of my book. Yeah. Alright. Well thank you. That makes a lot of sense. I like the, I like the messaging of that and the poetry of it. Thank you. Yes. Well Calvin, thank you for your work, preparing for this podcast. And Brandi, thank you for making time to visit with us. we look forward to seeing how God continues to use his story in your life, for his glory and the good of others in his kingdom, drawing them to himself. So thank you both for making this time. Thank you to the listeners we'll be back with you again soon. God bless you as you go out and speak the truth in love.