Conversations with Former Mormon Authors: Damien Tracy

What happens when the Mormon shelf finally breaks—and Jesus is the one standing in the rubble?

In this episode of the Witnessing Christ Podcast, we welcome Damien Tracy, author of The Shelf Breaker: How Jesus Drew Our Family Out of Mormonism.

Damien vulnerably shares his journey from moral collapse and spiritual exhaustion to the freeing grace of the true gospel. Through legal and personal struggles, Damien attempted to regain worthiness, but the weight of perfectionism ultimately crushed him.

What broke Damien’s shelf wasn’t scandal or bitterness. It was the overwhelming love of Christ and the faithfulness of Christian friends who patiently walked beside him. Hear how God used Roy and Mary, a kind Christian couple, to model friendship, plant gospel seeds, and create a safe place for questions.

This conversation will equip and inspire Christian witnesses with practical examples of:

• What cognitive dissonance feels like for Mormons
• How to become a trustworthy friend before you become a theological guide
• Why patience, presence, and small steps matter
• How the gospel transforms not just beliefs, but marriages, families, and identity

Listen now to see how God uses humble witnesses to reflect the light of Christ to those burdened by works-based religion.

For more from Damien, check out our review of his book "The Shelf Breaker: How Jesus Drew Our Family Out of Mormonism."

Share this podcast with your Christian friends and subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform!

Follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Subscribe to our YouTube channel!

Support Truth in Love Ministry here.

Transcript

Welcome back to another edition of the Witnessing Christ podcast. we're circling back around to some of our ex-Mormon Christian author friends. And today we have Damien Tracy, the author of The Shelf Breaker with us. So a few weeks back, John and I reviewed And gave a reaction to this book. And now we want to take a deeper dive John and Damian, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Thank you. I'm glad to be here. Me too. we're excited to have this conversation and hear more about how God broke your shelf, Damien. Yeah. All right. Damien, tell us a bit about yourself? briefly retell your story to the best of your ability. And then just share what you're up to today. Okay. Yeah. So I, once, uh, I was lost and now in town. So that's, that's a quick summary. Um, okay, yeah, I was born and raised LDS. I hit all the, all the milestones I was supposed to hit. I was firmly believing, and then In my teenage years, I got into some deeply, deeply moral trouble, which was also legal trouble, and With that trouble, can major consequences like I couldn't go on a mission and, it, could affect my future spouse, that kind of thing. I did all of the works I could possibly do in Mormonism to overcome, that sin and to make myself better with God again. And I just was completely inundated with, the Mormon life. And, I was obsessed with working hard to the point that it literally hospitalized me. I ended up, through some of my health issues deciding I really need to look at my relationship with God I don't even know if there is an ultimate being and, through, my health issues and my, my hectic overloaded lifestyle, I basically admitted to myself to being agnostic and once I did that, it kind of led me to like, okay, I need to actually figure out what happens after this life, and my health issues were, some of the catalysts for me researching Mormonism and, the God of the Bible and it basically led me out of Mormonism. I hope that's a decent summary. Yeah, no, that I think that's a pretty good summary of how life just kind of hits you as soon as you got married and then we're picking up two jobs. What was it like seventy hours a week you were putting on at some point between two different jobs. And then, and then church callings and schooling. So, yeah. Right. So I wanted to touch on that just a little bit while we're here. Uh, just the name of the book, The Shelf Breaker, uh, it's a metaphor that we use actually a part of truth and love ministry. We have this, Jesus is enough YouTube page where we use that same metaphor, of different things. Stacking on the shelf, waiting on the shelf, burdening yourself until that eventually crashes down and you have a really nice paragraph where you you use drip, drop, drip. Drop of all of the different things until it all comes crashing down. so is that pretty much the rationale behind that title? Is there anything else to that or? Yeah, we're using the same exact analogy, and most Mormons, even, non-Christian ex-Mormons, And most active Mormons, know exactly what shelf you're talking about. And, like you said, with the drips and drops, it's like every little new thing, is weighing heavily on your Mormon shelf. you might learn about The history of, the priesthood and black people and that can weigh heavily on your shelf. and rather than to address it in Mormonism, you're told Figure that one out later, or put that on your shelf for now. or basically ignore it. Right. But it's never actually going to be fully ignored. It's still, on your shelf back there somewhere. these things keep. Adding onto the shelf, and eventually that shelf bears too much weight and it comes crashing down. and, the analogy behind the shelf breaker is that Jesus Christ was my shelf breaker. So the shelf is a very prevalent part of both Mormon, post-Mormon, and even post-religious culture. Can you describe for us as one is placing items under their shelf? What sort of cognitive dissonance is there at play when you're saying like, I know there's an issue with this, but I'm being told That I can't actually ask questions about this. Just describe for us what that's like as an active Mormon placing an item onto your shelf. So, I argue that to be, An active, a true believing Mormon, a TDM, you must engage in cognitive dissonance. You have to, in order to truly believe in Mormonism. And I didn't, realize that until, ironically, when I was coming out of Mormonism, I was also studying psychology. And so I was learning what cognitive dissonance really is. At the same time of like learning about, um, the things that were, were really weighing on myself. I was like, oh my gosh, I've been engaging in way too much of this and everybody around me is doing way too much of this. So I guess that's my overall answer. Yeah. So what is, the talk that you are speaking to yourself as you are wrestling with something that has created cognitive dissonance where you're saying My church is telling me this and I've just learned this. How do you justify placing it under the shelf? How does that work? Yeah, so you basically don't really acknowledge it. you pretend like the issue doesn't exist in my, at least in my experience. I actually have several examples of this in my book and I tried to do this on purpose. I hope people pick up on it, but. Where, I'll start to, question, I don't know if that's good. I don't know should I actually believe that about the Celestial Kingdom? And then... Oh, well, no time to talk about that right now. I gotta focus on the kids, you know? like, um, Well, my friend Roy and Mary aren't going to go to the celestial kingdom, but they're like way better people than me, but well, I guess I gotta focus on work now. So for me at least, I had to find distractions all the time to distract me from the issue of cognitive dissonance. Um, Maybe one of the distractions. Oh, I'm sorry, Damien. Uh, just. Go ahead. I just wanted to talk, touch a little bit on worthiness because I think that's one of the things that plays into, you know, if I want to remain worthy, I better not ask these questions. And it comes out in your book quite, quite impactfully. so would you say that that was one of the things too, or it's like, well, if I want to remain either a temple worthy or celestial kingdom worthy, or, you know, they're all kind of in one anyways, I better not ask this question. Yeah, and even to the point where even like almost thinking about it because God knows your thoughts, which is a true concept in Christianity too, but, well, first of all, God doesn't shame questions, but in Mormonism, it was like, I, and again, I can't speak for every ex-Mormon, but I'm, but I know that it's similar for a lot of people, I, Felt even guilty having the questions come into my head. Like, oh, I'm not being a very good, disciple right now. I'm not being a very good Mormon. And not being a good Mormon means I'm not being worthy enough, so yeah, worthiness definitely, plays into it, like, Are you really worthy of entering God's house if you have questions about, like, if it's a valid house, you know what I mean? so, yeah, worthiness definitely plays a lot into it. Yeah, and uh, what a change, you know, once you broke free to think about what it means to have our worth in Christ. And you talk a little bit about that when you're talking about new beginnings, uh, Pastor Justin preaching. And it's one of my favorite parts of the book. Uh, if I can just quickly. Yeah. Flip to it because you had, you just did such a good job explaining what it meant to finally understand. Uh, so he read whoever believes in the son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his son. I sunk back down in my seat was I making God a liar I knew the message I even believed it but I still hadn't allowed it in my heart I thought of Jesus as a hero as a moral standout as a prophet as a perfect person even as the son of God But was he yet my savior? And, what a change. What a change. What was that experience like for you? do you remember it well? well enough, um, like, weightless, absolutely, just taking boulders and boulders off my shoulders, you know, like, like a shelf had just crumbled or something. Right. Off of my shoulders. A shelf that I was carrying. and it really does transition from, I've been trying all this time to be worthy, and now like, I know that I'm not worthy. Like I'm only worthy because he, he gives me his worthiness. and that just feels like it goes from bricks to feathers, you know? That's why we praise him now, Damien. Yeah, that's exactly right. Praise him now. Yeah. Damien, can you build on this concept of worthiness and kind of give us a compare and contrast to the way in which you Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Through all of the laws and ordinances of the gospel. What does that do to you? How does your, how does your day-to-day life look when you are trying to become worthy? Yeah. Um. there was a lot of, Don't do this. Don't do that. And if you're going to do this or do that, don't let other people see you just do that. almost perfectionism, if you're as adamant, about it as, as I was, because my crime was so terrible and I was digging so hard to get out of that hole. Everything I needed to do, I needed to be perfect. I had to, like, live from that point on perfectly. nearly, or as close to it as I can. And then Jesus would take over after all I could do. We'll get to that in a little bit. But, after all I can do. so to live worthy, There's a, a part in my book where I think it's like chapter three or four. and I'm, finally starting to, get to a point of. God's good graces again, you know, Mormon God's good graces. I've done all this work and I'm like wanting to be worthy of going to the temple and and I finally, I get to the bishop's office and I'm going to interview to see if I can be worthy to go to the temple. I go through the interview process and I was, really emotional at the end, I barely could even talk to the Bishop because I was like, I can't believe, like, I'm going to tell you. Oh, sorry. The last question in the interview questions is like, Do you feel you are worthy to enter God's house? enter, enter the temple? And At the end, I was just like so shaken and so emotional because I had worked so hard and done so well, been so sinless in my mind, that I could now. Move forward and enter God's house I was so I was elated and very emotional and I told the bishop like this is the first time ever I've ever been able to answer this question truthfully. Yes, yes, I do feel worthy to enter Kat's house, and I laugh at it now because I'm like, oh, that is so wrong, that is so wrong, like, Me alone, I'm not, no, I'm not worthy to enter God's house, even, even now, I mean, now I have Jesus, so with Jesus, I'm worthy, but, I didn't have Jesus, and so it was all the work that I did, So, uh, that that's really helpful just to, to allow us to see the weight of worthiness and what that does to you on a daily basis and how it leads in one of two extremes. So at first the weight of worthiness was crushing you. And you were really falling into despair. And now, as you described it here, it's that opposite extreme of look what I've done. I am righteous enough based on my own doing in order to make my way into the temple and how. When we try to live life based on the law, it's going to hit us in one of those two extremes always. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. But then life happens right and that feeling of you're on top of the mountain goes plummeting down and one of the things that I found interesting was when you were struggling with. hemoglobin levels, hospital visits, the family interactions, the jobs, one of the things that really struck out on me was just that People who were willing to take some time to help you out. Uh, it really, I really got the impression that a lot of the people of your ward, weren't Available to support you in times of need. Is that fair to say? I would say, for the most part, yes, like, they definitely stepped in here and there. We got a, we got, like, an occasional dinner from them or one cool thing was, my bishop put up a tree in our house for Christmas because I was in the hospital. so that was nice. but For the most part, my peer support came from outside of the church during those like more difficult times. well, I guess, was there anybody in your life, Damien, that you found incredibly Impactful in sacrificing their own time, sacrificing their own to-do list, sacrificing their own priorities to really put aside time To focus on helping their friend in their time of need. Yeah, absolutely. So they're, so the ones I talk about the most in my book are Roy and Mary. Um, and they probably, they were mentioned the most because they were most impactful for sure. Um, and Mary, um, Mary worked with me and, um, It, our friendship basically started one day when we were talking about, like, We were peers, but we weren't really friends. And we started talking about, like, St. Patrick's Day or something. And I'm like, I don't even know who St. Patrick is. I don't know the history of St. Patrick's Day. And she's like, oh, there's an inn. Just kidding. She's like, I got him now. There's a guy. No, but um, she's like, actually, she told me a little bit of history about, I'm like, cool, okay. but Anyway, and then she's like, I have this book if you're interested in like, in like history and stuff. It was a book that, anyway, she gave me this book called 131 Christians. Everybody, everyone should know. I still have that. It sits on my bookshelf. Anyway. that kind of started off this friendship. She became, like, this Christian friend that I knew and, felt comfortable with and could trust and, We didn't, become really hard friends right away either, but one day she's like, hey, would your family be interested in coming over to my house for dinner, and I was like, yeah, absolutely, Then, that's how I met her husband Roy, and Roy is like a big brother to me now, so Roy and Mary spent a lot of time, just being friends first. That is probably key number one. To our Christian audience that might want to, be supportive of their Mormon friends. Roy and Mary were friends with me when I was Mormon. They were friends with me when I was Internally agnostic, but still presenting Mormon like they were, and they're still friends with me. So it is possible to be friends with people of other faiths without considering them to be, Brothers in Christ or sisters in Christ. so having true friendship was such a huge help. And it was them when I did, finally like ask my wife, Patty, Am I okay to like kind of dig into this, like my questioning the church a little bit more? and they were the ones that Patty and I both were like, Mary and Roy are comfortable. We can go to them with, with questions, questions about what their church is like. So, that's like the biggest, biggest key right there, I think, is to be their friend. So Damien, two things, two things you mentioned in, in Roy and Mary's story She had been developing a rapport with you. You mentioned St. Patty's Day. She brings up St. Patrick and it's almost as if she had been Waiting, hoping and praying for an opportunity to have a religious conversation with you and God like served her up a softball there. And I think that's just something that I want to encourage our Christian friends is. Be in the life of Latter-day Saints and you will have opportunities that will come up naturally. Often it's the natural conversations like that that are much more impactful than the forced ones. And then additionally, I just loved hearing what you said of they had developed a deeper relationship with you where you knew that when it was time to start asking the deeper spiritual questions. They were the ones to go to. And not everybody has that. Not every active LDS member has a trusted Christian friend that they can turn to. And so just for those listening, I hope you're hearing that in Damien's story, be that friend. That even if your Mormon friends aren't asking you a lot of spiritual questions right now, there may come a day where they know that you are the one that they can turn to. So thanks for giving us a story that supports this whole idea that we're all about. I don't know if you have anything to add to that. I was going to pivot to just a little bit more detail on Roy and Mary when they would come in and give you these Bible stories. because I think it would be good for our listeners to hear, what a typical Sunday night looks like for you when they were coming over. Yeah. So, So I had been hospitalized for the second time. I had spent nine days in the hospital and, either Mary or Roy. texted me, and was like, hey, we just heard you were in the hospital and we want to So, um, so, but no more food, no more free food, Damien. But, they brought us, it was so sweet, they would bring food over and they would read some of the Bible. And this is so funny, so maybe consider this, maybe a small what not to do, but at the same time it helped me. So, They would come over, they would, they'd feed us, we'd pray And then we would dive into the Bible But, I'm telling you, Mormons aren't used to reading the Bible, at least in depth, okay? So, like... I'm like, sure, yeah, you can share a passage from the, from the Bible. and I was thinking this is going to be kind of like home teachers or Ministering brothers in the Mormon church, they have, two men from your, from your ward, that comes to your house for like half an hour a month. And like, leaves a short message. And they're like, here's a verse from the scriptures or something the prophet said that month or whatever. A positive little message. Okay. Have a good month. You know, let us know if you need anything. Um, and so that's kind of what I was expecting this to kind of be like, but Roy says real quick and snappy. Yep. Yeah, yep. Roy's like, okay, so we're gonna read, like, these three chapters. I was like, we're gonna what? I was like. Oh, brother. Excuse me? What? So we, we read these, those three chapters and I'm over there in my King James version and they're in their, I don't know if they did ESV or NIV or whatever it was, but. so, that made it interesting too, and I'm trying to be patient with them because I'm like, they have one of those corrupted Bibles. But, anyway, it was definitely an introduction to, House Christian's View the Bible almost like it's, the word of God or something. But, but I was like, so there are times where I'd be like, so annoyed. I'm like, listen, dude. I'm cool with the food, of course, and I'm cool with the positive message, but I don't think we need to see her for an hour and a half. Dedicating, dedicating how much time to the Lord? What in the world? But, after a while it became really comforting and especially when I really started reading the Bible for myself. I started looking forward to this. Um, and much like now I look forward to like, our, community group. Getting together for the gospel and reading through scripture is a good time to me now. but Roy had to shove it down my throat first Yeah. During that time, can you, can you think about like, how did, how did they Transition from dinner the first time into sharing God's word with you. do you remember back? what did that look like? Did they just say, hey, we want to read? And you were like, oh, this is like the home teacher. Cool. What was that first night like? Well, okay. So, that was the original plan. Like the original plan was like, hey, we'd like to bring you dinner and read, read some of the Bible to you. I was like, okay, yeah, that, that works. That sounds great. But when they, whipped out the Bible and it was like, three chapters I was like, That seems excessive. But, it was very, abrupt, like, hey, this is what we're doing. I was like, oh, okay. And I wasn't going to tell them no, like, they were, at this point, I, like, really liked them. So, I was not going to be like, no, heck no. Um, So, yeah, it wasn't, it was not like a gradual climb or anything. It was just like, started right in on that. Go for it. and I knew like being like, okay, they're going to, There might be some awkward things just because, you know, I can get through some awkwardness, like there might be some awkward things because they might say something or read a scripture that I know means something completely different than what they think it means, you know, But there was one time where, they're reading it, or I'm reading and I end up saying something along the lines of, well, we believe in eternal families, and Roy, was like, ooh, this is really weird. and Roy was like, okay, well, um, we don't. But, you know, we can get to our differences at another time if you'd like, so. I'm like, okay. But it was just very like. Yeah. So he realized at that moment that was not the thread to pull at let's stick with something else. Other than that impactful, kind of awkward moment, can you think of any other very specific conversations that you had with them when it came to that Bible reading? I don't know about, like, with, their Sunday, Regular visits necessarily, but they had one, one example, and I share about this in the, in the shelf breaker too, but one example was they invited us to. A, church camp out that we were like, sure, yeah, let's go. And I wasn't Christian yet. I was definitely leaning that way. And, yeah, we'll go on a camp. That sounds like a good time. So we go on that and sitting around the campfire like, I asked, you know, I don't really know where to start in the Bible by myself. so I asked Mary and Roy, like, I don't really know where to start, like, if I were to start a self-study, like, I don't, and Mary said, I would start in four gospels and I even asked like four gospels. What's like, what's that mean? What's four gospels mean? And she said, it's the life of Jesus. So Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, And I remember feeling like so, comfortable, so safe, like, like the opposite of feeling judged. If I asked something like that in, in like priesthood meeting or something, Not saying that it's true that everybody around me would judge, but, just the amount of stupid I would feel, you know? Like, I should know this stuff. Um, asking some basic doctrinal stuff, I would feel really dumb if I didn't know what they were talking about in priesthood or in Sunday school and I usually just wouldn't comment in those But, like, if I don't know what you're talking about, I'd just be like, yeah, haha, sit there and smile. But with Mary and Roy, I could sit and ask, like, very basic questions, um, like that. Like, what's, what does the four Gospels mean? Which I said, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I was like, oh, okay, yeah. Like, I knew that was the life of Jesus, but I didn't know, they were referred to as the four Gospels, I guess. but anyway, and so that was very impactful because that's exactly what I did. I went and did, the four gospels. and then I asked them at another point. during one of those Sunday meetings. I asked about this, at one point like hey Obviously, the way you're reading out of your Bible is, like, so much easier for me to understand than, my King James version, do you have a suggestion if I were to venture into another version of the Bible, which is like, oh, oh, oh, yeah. Mormon's going for another version. I can kind of be risky, but, um, I asked like, do you have like, do you have one that you would suggest? and then rattled off a few, But I told them, I have a really hard time like trusting that that's accurate though. I I need to know that that's right. And so what they did is they actually gifted me. a KJV and NIV side by side. I thought that was the coolest freaking thing ever. and I used that up until like a year and a half ago. but I used it for like five years. I loved it. Thanks for sharing that. You're, you're the first, former Mormon that has mentioned a Christian giving them a side-by-side type of translation. And What a great way for you to be like, there are no major differences here other than I can actually understand the English now. That is exactly what I, and I used it for several months, like as a Mormon still. and that's exactly what I got from it. And eventually As I, as I became more and more interested in Jesus, I didn't even read the KJV, I didn't even look at the KJV, just looking down the NIV column, but that, that was a very smart, smart gift. I thought like, so, so that might be a good suggestion for. Absolutely. Yeah. For Christian friends. Um, yeah. Uh, I wanted to lean in now to one of your first conversations with Roy is when you guys go golfing together and you're just like, man, I could use something to do like, uh, besides working and all the other stuff. Yeah. And then he asked you, So what's your story? And you, you reflect, you say, well, what was my story? And then you, you have a little bit more conversation and then you reflect again. So what's your story? After, for a few weeks after golfing with Roy, I couldn't get this question out of my head. What was my story? His was amazing. He got exactly what he asked for. He wanted hard evidence and got it. He asked for forgiveness and apparently got that too. Where was my hard evidence? I worked my tail off and I didn't get as much as a whisper. Was Roy just a little nutty? I didn't get that vibe from him. I get it now, though. I'm just kidding. I didn't get it now, yeah. If you're listening, Roy, yep. Yuck. Sorry. Everyone. No, it's all right. You go on to say everybody has their story, but what is my story? And, uh, But you have a beautiful story here, Damien. And Lord willing, you know, it's just beginning. This is just the beginning of a whole new chapter of your life. And. Uh, it's really touching to read and encourage listeners to go and hear the story because you're so transparent. You're so honest. It's so easy to read. You can tell even just by listening to that. You're a good storyteller. So I just wanna know, how did it feel creating this book? Did it feel after the fact, did it feel kind of, I guess the fancy word would be like cathartic cleansing After wrote it, got it out, what, what was going through your head there? Oh man, it's like a whole story in itself, right? There's a lot, a lot of emotion behind that in itself. so first thing, I have not told my story. I have not told my story to anybody. especially the chapter one stuff. Very, very heavy stuff. and I'll reserve that for people who want to read it. I'm not going to necessarily share the details of that here, but very heavy, heavy stuff. very heavy sins in my life that I just told to the appropriate people and to the appropriate authorities. I went through the appropriate channels and dealt with it, dealt with those things. but Even after becoming Christian, it was something I was so ashamed of. I had given it to Jesus, but it's not something that I found I could necessarily share with friends. Like, People are definitely gonna judge that. it's not like, oh, I had, I had a drinking problem or I had a porn addiction. Like, it's, no, it's one of the most vile things someone could do to do. In their life, I had done it. And so, that was a huge fear of mine in writing this book. It's like, I have, I know I have this amazing testimony I know it can be powerful, but just terrifying to tell anybody. And so I called Michael Fornoy. I don't know if you guys know who that, well, yeah, you know who that is. He's going to be, I think he's going to be one of your guys' guests in one of these. but I, I called Michael Flournoy and, um, I was like, you know what? I know Michael. He seems like a cool dude. I don't know him that well. And I guess if he hates me for what I'm about to tell him about my life, it's gonna be fine. Like, it's not like a best friend that I'm losing. so I called Michael and I tell him my whole story. And he just listens quietly and at the end he says like, Well, I hope you know I don't think any differently of you now than I did an hour ago, you know, and we talked about, about becoming writing partners and that's exactly what we did. he was working on his book and I was on one of his books. He's, he's, published multiple and they're all fantastic I read them all so um, but I got to help him edit some of his work And it was like refreshing to tell one person, and I guess when I say I haven't told anybody, my wife knows my whole story, and she knew before we got married and then. I've been in therapy since forever. So my therapist, you know, uh, all of my information, but, um, and then. I start writing this book with Michael. Patty's, my wife, is supportive of it. I start writing this book with Michael, or start writing my book with Michael's assistants, and, and partnership, and then I start, Facing reality, I'm like, someone, I'm gonna have to, like, tell people about this book, you know. actually, rewind, sorry, writing chapter one, I had, like, three or four different versions of chapter one because, in one version I was like, should I just, like, make up my sin? Like, essentially lie about the sin that I committed? And so we tried that. I was like, okay, that's, that's an option, I guess. Should I, and then it was like, okay, should I try a chapter one version of like, just kind of hinting at it being a terrible thing, kind of like what I'm doing in this episode. But not explain exactly what happened. or give, give any more details or information. And that was like maybe a little better. It was like a, but it was another, it was kind of like gross. And then I wrote, the solid truth and it was like, This is, this is a great chapter and, and Michael is right there with me for, you know, each week I would, we would turn in chapters to each other and, and, um, we both like settled on, you know, just telling the truth is often the best. And it works out here too. and what, what a beautiful, what a beautiful thing you experienced from him and hopefully from many others that have read your book where, When someone humbly and boldly exposes their sin in front of fellow Christians, I hope that we should not be surprised when people don't react with, oh, I don't want anything to do with you, but okay. Yeah, let's continue to be friends. If you're still struggling with something, let's talk about it. But it doesn't need to be something that now distances the two of you. We all have our own sins. And when we see Every single sin for what it truly is a breaking of God's commandments, a enmity between God and man that every single sin creates that. We then cannot look at a specific sin and say, oh, that's so much greater than my sin. And, that's one of the things I appreciate about your book is that that allows all of us as Christians. To see sin for what it really is. And then as you did to see the wonderful nature of our savior for what he truly is. And that's one of the powerful things that God did in your story is he brought you to a place that some other Latter-day Saints don't get because maybe they don't have as big of sins in the eyes of the world and they can appear worthy and righteous on their own. And God said, no, I'm going to, I'm going to bring Damien to me in a different way, a hard way. we, we don't want anyone to have to go through that obviously. Yeah. And I do want to say too, as an encouragement for. anybody not not necessarily just Latter-day Saints, but anybody that is struggling with like admitting sin, or coming face to face with with being open about it. there was a ten year gap, ten years ago was the last time I told anybody and that was my wife. And I had, I had actually become really, really good friends with my friend Mark. He's mentioned in the last chapter or two of my book. And, it was, like, getting to the point where he's gonna be Uncle Mark to my kids. Like, he's very, very close, but he doesn't know this part of my life. He's a Christian man, too. He doesn't know this part of my life. And I... Go over there with Patty. Other than Michael, Mark is the first one that I had. And this person meant something to me. You know, Michael at the time didn't mean a whole lot. Like, that sounds rude, but he was just somebody else. But Mark I would have a very difficult time letting him go if he chose not to accept my past and um so patty and I walked over there one night And I told them I've decided to write a book and they're like, oh, that's awesome. They knew I was ex-Mormon. They knew basically everything except for chapter one. And when I say him, Mark and his wife, yeah, Caitlin. And I... Basically, I tell them exactly that. I, you guys know everything in my book except for chapter one. And they're like, oh, okay. So I, and I explain chapter one to them. And, and I am like, bawling. In tears, just crying my eyes out because I'm like, I am laying my lifeline here. Like, these guys know everybody I know. They could ruin my life with this, you know, And they didn't. They very, they were very like, thank you so much for like telling us this. They thanked me for coming to them with it. And, they gave me love and support and, and Mark His answer was everybody, everybody needs Jesus. And that, that was, that was that. So, and it's been become much easier. And this is where I hope it's encouraging. After that, it's become so much easier to talk about it. Like, I mean, writing. He knew. And so at that point, like my book, I was like, sweet. My wife knows my best friend knows I'm good to get like that. Yep. Who cares? Whatever their people think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So be that way as a Christian. Okay. But also know that if you're coming into Christianity and you, or if you are a Christian and you have sin that you need to get off your chest, like you have brothers and sisters in Christ that are going to support you. Yeah. Yeah, Martin Luther once said to one of his ministry companions to sin boldly. And that's not that he was encouraging him to just go out and sin a lot. But when you do... Confess it and bring it to your friends and bring it to the people that you trust in your life and bring it boldly before God. Before we wrap up, um, John, do you have any final questions? I've got one that I'd really like to kind of close things out with, but John, do you have anything else that. Just on what we were just saying, one of the first passages I wrote down after I read your foreword in chapter one, the first passage that came to my mind was from Ephesians five, and I just like to read it. On the, on the note of transparency and, and what is our worthiness and, well, it's actually in the worth that God gives you through his son. And Paul says, for you were once in darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness, and truth and find out what pleases the Lord have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret, but everything exposed by the light becomes visible and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. That is why it said, wake up sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you. And If it exactly resonates with you, I'm not entirely sure but I just really thought what an excellent example of being courageous in your confession. of your sin. you mentioned in chapter one that when you told one of the bishops. The story he offered to keep it hidden and you are convicted to say, I have to go and do the right thing and not keep this hidden. And so that it just resonated with me more that you were willing to confess your sins and that is exactly the same thing that God wants from us is to confess our sins, to realize that there's not one person who's More worthy than another because of the deeds of their past, but we are all children of God, light of Christ because of God's testimony. And so, Damien, it just really touched me that you were willing to... be so transparent and honest with your struggles and then able to describe the feeling of understanding Your status before God. And so it's not really a question, but I really wanted to see that. No, thank you. Thank you, John. And, that's one of, one of the two things I wanted to close with Damien was. One of the questions that our Christian witnesses often have posed to them is, So do you think I don't believe in Jesus or do you think I believe in a different Jesus? How would you answer that question now as a former Mormon now Christian? How was the Jesus that you believed in when you were an active Mormon trying to be worthy? What was that Jesus like and who is the Jesus that you've come to know now? And then I'll, I'll have one other question that we really, a witnessing specific one to wrap things up. Yeah. So the, the Jesus I knew as a Mormon, Was a big brother, literally a big brother to me, and also a brother literally to Satan, and he was, the creator of this world, let's see, he also had a additional history, I guess, than the Jesus of the Bible. So the Jesus I knew as a Mormon came to visit the Americas and, Interestingly enough, after being sacrificed on the cross, he, came to the Americas and killed a bunch of people. So, not an, a figure of worship for me. He was, he was a goal to obtain. I wanted to be like Jesus or better. he was, a prophet, great guy, uh, a god, uh, like a, almost like a demigod of some sort, So someone to respect and look up to, and maybe love, and he maybe enabled me to do things better. to be a better person or be, to be more worthy. so kind of a helper, but, That Jesus I know now, is the ultimate God of the universe. he is the triune God. he created everything. he didn't use preexisting material. he is, um, the Yahweh of the Old Testament. and he is the savior and the new, the second Adam. He's my Lord and savior. And I even kind of go into the differences in my last chapter about who the God was that I worshiped before and the God that I worship now. the Jesus of the Bible is the shelf breaker and Destroyer of my old Jesus. So, yeah, it's a completely stark, stark difference for sure. and this Jesus, I do worship and I do adore and I cannot wait. And as weird as it might sound, I cannot wait to, like, Kiss its feet. Yeah, that's just a form of worship I want to give him. That's wonderful. Awesome, Damien. Thank you for sharing that. So I would feel like we didn't quite do your story nor our Christian witnessing audience justice if we didn't at least Give a little bit more reference to a very important person in your life, Patty, and the significant impact she had on your story. so you, you met her back in, the singles ward, And eventually God brought you two together in marriage. But your story does take a very divergent path for a certain period of time where you had Left Mormonism, become a biblical Christian, and she was still living the active Mormon lifestyle. And a number of the folks listening to this podcast find themselves in that same place where they are Now, unequally yoked, some would call it, where one is a practicing Mormon, one is a practicing biblical Christian. Talk to us a little bit about that time in your life and just speak directly to Those that may be going through this and even if it's not a spouse, if it's a family member or a friend that they are just deeply connected to, just give us a little bit of your heart for what that was like and just some witnessing tips along the way. Yeah. I think, I think it was year five when I became Christian. and there were a lot of mistakes that I made. I praise God that Patty and I are still married. I took a lot of anger out on her. A lot. and she took, she took a good amount of anger out on me too. When your shelf breaks, it's not like it, you know, something else is immediately replaced and beautiful. it causes a lot of anger, and it causes a lot of hurt and pain and your world turns upside like you've been lied to your whole life. That's what it was. I was lied to my entire life. and Patty. Just couldn't buy that, like, she just couldn't understand that I had been lied to my whole life and that she is currently being lied to. She wouldn't accept that, as much as I tried to force that into her, like, she could not buy that she's being lied to. I tried to, I, we called that year the first year of me being out. Patty and I still refer to that as our year from help. I don't know if I ever mentioned that in the book, but we, we referred to it as the year from hell. and any little stupid, stupid thing that I could get Annoyed with her about, I got irate about, and same thing, like, we're both guilty in, in this, like, she, she would also do the same, for me, and we would always tie it to the fact that I was Christian and she was Mormon. So, if she did something, she had done our entire marriage that annoyed me all the time. It was, you're Mormon and you're doing that. You know, like, it didn't really make sense to tie it together. But it was the same thing. She would do, like, Well, you're doing this thing that you've always done, but it makes me angrier now because you're a Christian and you're doing it. So there's just a lot of hurt and I think the person that you're closest to Unfortunately becomes the victim a lot. and that can be a huge reason why there's, there's huge divorce rates, with people who leave Mormonism, but, Patty was also pregnant with our fourth child, Rachel. who is still our youngest and she's, almost five now. she was pregnant with Rachel and when we went to the hospital to give birth to Rachel, it was like a wake up call for me because, there was some mental health issues that I found out were going on with Patty. in that, in the hospitalization, that basically Rachel Grace, was saving her life, And so I thank God for Rachel Riggs. and so, Rachel being born Was almost like a reset. okay, let's, let's try this again. You know, it's, try to date again. and so we really, really focused on. individually, each other, and tried to keep the religious stuff out for a while, like, we had to address it sometimes, and, and we knew that there would, there were going to be hard conversations later in life, but. For now, after Rachel coming into, into the world, it was like, let's just focus on our relationship and literally nothing else. And not that I'm saying, you know, put God to the side of it. But it was, I think God almost gave me permission to focus on that relationship, and so truly loving someone for, for who they are, where they are, is key, I think, And interestingly, the gentler I got about things and the more I could lay off, And the more I started having way more healthy outlets, therapy and friends to talk to, and as soon as we Started having a healthier relationship. I don't know just kind of it went much smoother. And we could eventually talk to each other about different things without without attacking each other. without blowing up and and eventually Patty Patty has her own story and she she eventually found her own way out and if she asked my opinion, I would give her my opinion. Other than that, it was kind of like, I'm watching this happen. I'm gonna let this, you know. So, We, and we did make compromises. for example, we went to church with each other, but it was every other week at each other's church. And we didn't force each other to participate in studies or activities or rituals or anything like that, that of each other's faith, So, and the thing is, like, I want to say to the people listening, like, be very, very, very, very patient. But I also understand if it's so, so fresh and It is so hard to understand that concept. It's so freaking hard you're being lied to, you know, and I'm so angry. So I like, I understand that. The sooner you can calm down towards your spouse, the sooner, you can Treat your wife or your spouse with dignity and the respect that they need, and let them have their own journey, the more likelihood they are to find Jesus, I think. I like that there at the end, Damien, where even as a pastor that's been doing this for five years, sometimes I want to Force the issue and say this is the plan that I would have for this person to come out of the church and God has a plan and he's the one that is working this and we are ultimately not the savior. They already have a savior. And we sometimes just need to step out of the way and let him do his work but also at the same time be there be present in their lives and be ready when they're ready to talk so thank you for for sharing all that and. that patience, the patience in the seed planting and trusting in the power of God to words. So what you're doing there, doing the church swap thing. she was hearing God's word when she went to church with you. And so what, what a good thing to be doing, even if you were not having Bible studies in the home or spiritual conversations, she was in the presence of the living word of God. And, and to be clear, Patty was baptized two years ago. So, so she's been Christian for two and a half years now. So God be praised. Awesome. Well, Damien and John, this has been a true privilege and pleasure to be able to hear more about your story again. Uh, Damian Tracy wrote the book, the shelf breaker, how Jesus drew our family out of Mormonism. You can find it on Amazon very easily. And it's just a beautiful story of God's grace working in the heart of one of his lost sheep. thanks to those that are listening right now. And we look forward to getting to know Damien more in the future. This is the first time we're seeing him live. So thanks for being a part of the podcast, Damien. And, Have a blessed week, everyone. Go out in that peace and the patience as you plant seeds and as you share the word of God with your friends. Take care and God bless. Thank you. God bless. Thanks.