EP 09: Transformation, Pride, and the Magic of Community, With Atmos Editor-In-Chief Willow Defebaugh

Welcome to Episode 9 of Supersede! 

This week Willow Defebaugh joins the podcast in an episode that touches on connection to nature, spirituality, and the value in transformation. Speaking with Madeline during pride month and solstice season, Willow emphasizes the magic within community and the good that comes from amplifying each other's unique superpowers within supportive spaces.  

Sharing her journey to becoming the editor-in-chief at Atmos, Willow reminds listeners to follow the threads in our lives leading to your calling even amidst doubt and confusion. What have you always wanted? What pulls at your soul? Our life calling is not a calling to perfection, but rather a calling to try, and as Willow states, we need imperfect activists. 

Willow brings her beautiful voice and connection to nature through this conversation which values the complexity of life in its ever-changing, beautiful, and messy nature. Drawing from her rich experience as a trans woman, Willow speaks to the beauty and significance of life in metamorphosis. Life is transformation, evolution, and change, and having the peace to come to know yourself throughout this can be vitally life-affirming.  

Willow Defebaugh is the co-founder and editor-in-chief of Atmos, a nonprofit biannual magazine and digital platform curated by a global ecosystem of artists, activists, and writers devoted to ecological and social justice, creative storytelling, and re-enchantment with the natural world. She writes a weekly newsletter called The Overview which offers a holistic look at life on Earth through the lens of deep ecology. Prior to Atmos, Willow held editor titles at V Magazine, CR Fashion Book, and L’Officiel USA. She has been featured in US Vogue, Vogue China, i-D, BBC, the Guardian, New York Magazine, and more.

Willow's Socials:
Instagram: @willowonearth
Twitter: @willwrights

Seeding Sovereignty's Socials:
Instagram/TikTok/Twitter/YouTube: @seedingsovereignty
Website: www.seedingsovereignty.org

Madeleine's Socials:
Instagram/TikTok: @madeleinemacgillivray
Website: www.madeleinemacgillivray.com

Transcript

Madeleine:
Okay, hello, welcome Willow.

Willow:
Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Madeleine:
Yeah, thank you so much for being here. I want to sort of get into your path and who you are and everything you're about, but I just want to start with acknowledging that like this is a magical time. It was just the summer solstice and it's going to be pride in New York and it just feels like an especially magical time. And I wanted to start with Framing it in that way and asking you how you ground yourself in all of this wonder and awe for the natural world that you so often write about.

Willow:
Hmm, great first question. I think for me what always comes up during Pride month and especially around Solstice is just the magic of community. I feel like I've been the most social that I have been in so long in the last like three weeks and it's really felt so nice. I think emerging out of the pandemic. I think we've all been recalibrating our social capacities and I think of the solstice as a time that's really about what it means to shine not just individually but collectively and how can we amplify each other's shine and there's such rich history of magic there and just I'm thinking about circles right now and it's felt really like a really beautiful energy to be in for these last couple weeks and this week in particular.

Madeleine:
Yeah, I love that. I think community is something that we always come back to in these conversations and just in general as a kind of framework for, okay, how do we look at like the way that culture, our culture, at least I know both of us are in Brooklyn, like our different cultures sort of, but America at large like sees community and how like we can kind of rekindle that and how we can form and enliven and like actually cultivate communities that are vibrant and helpful and, you know, resilient and how that seems to be a serious deficit right now for a lot of people. Yeah. Okay, side note Willow, I'm so sorry. I'm going to edit this out. Your hair is getting in the scrunchies of your mic.

Willow:
Oh, okay, that is great to know, thank you.

Madeleine:
I hate to ruin the flow, but I just had to say it because I know that people listening are going to be like, what is that scrunch?

Willow:
Do we need to go back? We can totally go back.

Madeleine:
We don't need to go back. I'll just pretend like we didn't. I didn't just say that.

Willow:
Great, you got it.

Madeleine:
So in that vein, I wanna talk about spiritual ecology a little bit. I mean, I wanna talk about spiritual ecology a lot,

Willow:
Hehehe

Madeleine:
but I wanna read something that you've written for Atmos. It's a quote that says, "'Nature inspires everything I do.'" I believe that inspiration is inherently tied to intuition, which is nature's way of communicating with us. All of my work, including the stories I tell, begins and ends with listening to where I am intuitively feeling called. In this way, our stories are not our own. They are given to us to tell. And so how has connection, not just to nature, obviously, but like... community as we're just talking about and just a more broad understanding of spiritual ecology. Like how does that drive you and your life and your work?

Willow:
Hmm. Big question, great question.

Madeleine:
Big question,

Willow:
And in many ways,

Madeleine:
I know. Yeah.

Willow:
in many ways, the question.

Madeleine:
Yes.

Willow:
You know, I think I used to think of spirituality as this thing that was separate, that was something I had to seek or be in practice with or cultivate or find elsewhere. And I think a lot of that has to do with, you know, how spirituality has in a lot of ways been industrialized in the West and we could go down a whole rabbit hole, but, you know, to stay. more closely with your question, I think so much of what the last few years of my life have been about is understanding that spirituality is just everything, like nature, it's what's all around us. At least this is my own understanding, which is of course all I can speak to. And so for me, it's impossible not to see my work as spiritual, to see storytelling as spiritual, to see... science is spiritual and that's been such a huge thing for me to wrestle with in the unfoldment of Atmos because when we first started the magazine five years ago and I was talking about spiritual things in relationship to the work, I felt like, am I going to be judged by the scientific community? Am I going to be judged by the journalistic community? It felt like such a taboo. And then the more I started to walk and write, the more I started to uncover other authors and voices who were seeing things the same way and you really then start to understand that it's really just a Western framework that has separated spirituality from science and everything else. And so what that looks like in my day to day life and work is really, you know, the word that jumped out at me and the passage that you shared was listening. And You know, I'm thinking about the print magazine as one sort of forum of what we work on. And each edition has a different theme and the theme is like really the seed, the starting place for each issue. And I tell my team this all the time, they must be sick of hearing it, but I always say that what we're working on is what we're working on. And I say that because it has proven itself to be true time and time again, you know. I'm thinking about our third edition, slash collapse, which ended up coincidentally coming out the month that the pandemic hit, where we were seeing just so much collapse and tragedy and at the same time seeing human resilience and all of these beautiful things. And after that we went into Cascade, which was all about chaos theory and just watching the world kind of unravel. And most recently our edition that came out a few months ago was Rhythm and so much of what that looked I mean, in some ways that speaks to everything that we're talking about with this question, which is how do you listen to the rhythm of life and the timing, the timing of everything? I mean, that to me is like, the one thing to work on is like, when does the story want to be told? When is this step ready to be taken? When is this expansion due? When is it time to be in the contraction? And so really listening for what is happening beneath the surface as opposed to just saying, oh I think this story is a good idea, why not let's run with it, or hey everyone's talking about this, we should talk about it too. What are the things that we're not talking about? What are the stories that are perhaps being felt inside but not being externalized?

Madeleine:
I have a lot of follow-up questions, and

Willow:
Hehehe

Madeleine:
I would love to keep on this thread. But I know that we're going to revisit it, and I know that we're going to come back to it. And I'm just going to kind of say, I think that now is a good time, as you're starting to talk about Atmos and your creative process, to step back and have you really tell us about your path to- climate work, environmentalism, your role at Atmos, just like how you arrived there, the support that you had along the way, all the factors that, well, not all, because that would be a very long answer,

Willow:
So, sorry.

Madeleine:
but the significant factors that have gotten you to where you are at this present moment.

Willow:
Yeah, it's interesting whenever I'm confronted with this question, it's so hard in some ways because it feels like everything in my life has been some thread that in some way has woven me to where I am or woven Atmos together and I'll kind of pick out some of the key ones. I've always been a storyteller, that's always been what I have been gravitated towards, I think. stories are completely 100% magic. I think they really define what makes us human. So I've been working as a writer and in publishing for over a decade in New York. At university, I studied writing and journalism and also some environmental science. And then when I moved to New York, most of my work was in the culture space and the arts. And I was working at art and culture and fashion publications. And there was so much that was creatively enriching about that time in my life. And also there was a lot of toxicity and that's a whole other story. But I think during Trump era, United States, I was starting to feel really burnt out because it felt like there were so many stories that I wanted to tell that I was constricted in because of the environment I was in and the beats I was on. And, you know, that's 2018 when the wildfires were absolutely ravaging the West Coast and the IPCC report that really catapulted so much of the shift in consciousness around environmentalism, whether that's translated to action is another story, but.

Madeleine:
Right.

Willow:
you know, that was all happening and it was this firestorm of different things and I kind of had a dark night of the soul moment when it came to publishing.

Madeleine:
A dark night of the soul has been.

Willow:
My dog coming in right at that moment. Okay, I'll back up. I kind of had this dark of this of this old moment where I was really not sure if publishing was for me. I was just feeling so exhausted and kind of did a spiritual walkabout. I was really trying to answer some big bigger questions about why I felt I was here, what I could do for people and this planet. And I was also wrestling with my identity at the time. Atmos was kind of... just this seed that was presented to me, my co-founder and I met through a mutual friend and he was like, hey, I really want to start a publication that looks at the intersection of climate and culture. And it was in a lot of ways a lifelong dream for me. And so I said yes, but at the same time, I was kind of one foot out the door because I was like, no, I want to, I want to just go live in the woods and meditate and not be part of, be part

Madeleine:
That's

Willow:
of the

Madeleine:
so

Willow:
world.

Madeleine:
enticing, isn't it?

Willow:
It's so enticing. And so it took me honestly, like, a few years of doing Atmos to fully really commit myself to it, because I think that part of me really had one foot out the door. And it took me a long time to understand that this was the forum through which I could be of spiritual service to the world and that it was in so many ways the integration of so many of my different passions and so many different intersecting threads in my life and that I didn't really want to run away, that I wanted to be part of this world and part of a movement that seeks to give it the best possible future that it can have. That's a long answer, a short answer? I don't know.

Madeleine:
Well, it's a great answer, even no matter what it is. It's a fantastic, I think really comprehensive snapshot of your experience and your path. And one of my questions immediately is because I also have read, I don't remember where it was, but it was an interview that you gave that... you said that you had a goal, you had specified a goal of being an editor-in-chief of a, I don't wanna misquote you, but like an ecology related kind of cultural publication and you are. And so kind of in the context of that as a child, really going way back. How does this all fit in and how, whatever answer you have to that question, how does that kind of fall in relation to your moments of questioning and your moments of really intuiting what was right and sticking with it to be where you are now?

Willow:
Yeah, I mean, when I was a kid, when people asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up, I literally said I wanted to be the editor-in-chief of an environmental magazine. I also said I wanted to have a pet leopard, but we're still

Madeleine:
Hehehehe

Willow:
working on that part. You know, I think that was in a lot of ways the thread that pulled me to say yes, even when I wanted to say no, and I wanted to run and hide and... But knowing that this was this kind of lifelong dream, I said yes. And I'm so, of everything in my life, I'm so grateful for that moment and for that thread having pulled me through because I think there are so many doubts and questions that came up at the time too of just, am I qualified for this? Is this, am I going to be able to succeed? And, Can something like this even exist? I mean, you know, Climate and Culture Magazine felt like such a strange idea or amalgamation at the time. And I'm really happy that I just took the leap to see if it could grow into something. And of all the aspects of Atmos and the... dynamics of it that I'm most proud of. It's how slowly it has grown, which is maybe a strange thing to say, but I've watched it grow over these last five years into from something that was a passion project and an experiment to something that we decided to truly commit to, to something that we're seeing flourish today. And... That means a lot to me, especially in this capitalist world that we live in that things, and that it's a question that often comes up with Atmos. It's like, okay, what are our motivations and goals? Are we growing for the sake of growing, or are we growing towards something? And can we do so intentionally and slowly and sustainably? Because if we're not actually embodying those values, then what are we doing? So I think... Putting it in the context of it being a lifelong seed or dream makes it have more meaning to me because I understand that it's something that has taken the time that it has needed to break out of its shell and grow and flourish into whatever, who knows what it's going to become.

Madeleine:
Yeah, yeah, there's a kind of saying that I am blanking on where I picked this up, but it's like all it took was everything. And I don't know

Willow:
Hmm.

Madeleine:
who is known for that. And if I find it, I will I will say it in the intro or the outro. But I think what you're what you're perfectly kind of illustrating is how. With, I mean, this is not just climate work, obviously, this is with anything and everything in relation to a dream or a vision or a goal that a person can have. You know, your life is the amalgamation of all of these experiences and little kismet moments and it, you know, sometimes it's not clear what exactly is going to come of it as long as you're saying, as long as you just kind of stick to your intuition, it just kind of clicks in a moment. And it sounds like for you, even though you had a wonderfully specific vision as a child, it wasn't clear how exactly you were gonna get there. And you had plenty of doubts and you experienced severe burnout doing one thing, but it led you ultimately to doing what you're doing now and I think, you know, that is just a lovely reminder for myself and anyone who's listening and anyone who's kind of thinking about how to like take what you want to kind of feel and the idea that you want to help in this movement but you don't actually have specifics yet and you're not exactly sure. how the heck that's going to translate. Like, oh, I'm in publishing right now, but I really want to have an impact and work in climate. And you have like, you have literally broken this mold of creating something that didn't exist before in furtherance of like climate and social justice in a creative way and bringing people in. And I think that is so... just utterly inspirational. It's really, really special. And so I just want to

Willow:
That

Madeleine:
acknowledge

Willow:
is very

Madeleine:
that.

Willow:
generous of you. That's very

Madeleine:
No,

Willow:
generous.

Madeleine:
it's not.

Willow:
Thank

Madeleine:
It

Willow:
you

Madeleine:
is

Willow:
very

Madeleine:
not

Willow:
much.

Madeleine:
generous. It is totally just the truth.

Willow:
Well, thank you. Yeah, I really, I mean, whenever people ask me for sort of my advice and career. creating the career that they want, my advice is always to follow the threads because I really think of a life to be like a tapestry and our tapestries are unique because of the specific threads and intersections and colors and all of the different things. And so focusing on what makes your particular tapestry, your particular weaving, which is of course part of a much bigger tapestry, but what makes it. unique because that's what no one else is going to be able to bring to this particular movement. And that's how ecosystems thrive. That's the core of emergence, right? Is all of these different individual players and beings each bringing something unique to the table, you know? And you look at an ecosystem. Imagine if bees were attempting to exhale oxygen and trees were attempting to create honey, you know, we all have this particular part to play in relationship to our particular threads and stories and everything that shaped us. And I think embracing that individuality for the service of the collective is the key.

Madeleine:
Yes, absolutely. And I also want to reference another quote that you gave in an interview to Reformation. And you said, whether intentional or not, there's a lot of gatekeeping in the environmental movement. And people feel that they have to be a perfect environmentalist or activist in order to join the conversation. But the reality is that this is a conversation that we need everyone to be a part of. This means meeting people where they are. This is also where I come back to renaturalization. reminding people that no one person has the right, a right to speak about or for nature than anyone else because it's something that we're all inherently a part of, end quote. I forgot to quote.

Willow:
Hehehehe

Madeleine:
It's just no poignant to what you just said. And I think that kind of like, we can look at the environmentalism and climate movement. And yeah, there is a lot of gatekeeping, whether or not. It's intentional, as you said, and I think the idea that we are doing this for the collective is the thing to remember every day. I think about the work that I do and the work that we're all doing and just think about the end goal. Well, there's no real end goal, but just the idea that, you know, there's a vision that we all kind of individually hold. And how can I further that today for the most, you know? people in the end. And I just wanted to offer that.

Willow:
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. It makes me think of something that Adrienne Marie Brown told me in an interview for Atmos once. She said, you know, at this point in my life, I've just taken perfection off the table. It's not even on the table. And I love that so much because I think most of us consciously say, like, okay, I know I'm not going to be perfect. But the- unconscious implication is, but I'm still going to try and I'm going to

Madeleine:
Yes.

Willow:
try to get there as much as possible. But I love this framing that's like, you know what, let's just not even put it on the table, the idea that I could be perfect or get close to perfect. And I'm bringing this up in relationship to this question because people have so much of that gatekeeping is that people have this idea that in order to engage with environmentalism, they have to be perfect. They have to be perfectly informed. They have to be the perfect person when it comes to lifestyle habits, et cetera. And

Madeleine:
Right.

Willow:
I think that's been a, we've seen a real shift in that narrative, thankfully recently that, you know, we need a lot more imperfect activists or environmentalists than we need perfect one, a few perfect ones. And I think just throwing open those doors is hugely valuable to our particular movement. And for me, it relates to Atmos because again, I had studied environmental journalism, had been a lifelong student of nature, I had a green fashion column at the time, but I didn't feel like I was an environmentalist enough to become the editor-in-chief of a climate magazine.

Madeleine:
Mm-hmm.

Willow:
And some of that's important to acknowledge because then I built a team with people who could help fill in my knowledge gaps. And I think it's really important for people who... find themselves in leadership positions to say where they are not informed and where they don't know. And

Madeleine:
Yes.

Willow:
I have no problem saying I don't know about this, you know? And so I think that's hugely important. And at the same time, we can't let that stop us. We can't say like, oh, just because I'm not perfect in this, or I'm not perfectly trained in this, that I can't share my observations. Because I do think nature is the thing that we're all a part of. And I don't think anyone has a right to keep anyone from it. And you know, as I always say about the overview, which is my weekly newsletter with meditations on the natural world, I don't, I certainly don't speak for nature or the natural world. All I can do is share my reflections and observations and

Madeleine:
Hmm.

Willow:
things that I find helpful when I look to it and kind of little reminders. But that is one of the sources of the most horrific destruction in history is people feeling like they have the... authority to speak on behalf of. planet or everyone else or on what is. I don't know where I'm going with that thought. But

Madeleine:
It's...

Willow:
I think, yeah, and they're on behalf of the planet.

Madeleine:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I, I am thinking about that balance between what you're saying, like, humility. It's like a balance between humility and ambition. It's kind of like, it's

Willow:
Hmm.

Madeleine:
one of my guiding values is, you know, don't ever assume that you're right. Always know that you don't know, but also try and bring people in when it's, whenever it's possible. And the Adrienne Marie Brown quote that you quoted was so poignant to something that I've personally been thinking about with my work that I won't get into detail, but because it's something that I'm, it's brewing, but it's a question that I have to ask myself where I'm like, is this half baked? Do I have the experience to... do this and I had this wonderful conversation with a mentor and she was like, first of all, with your experience, I don't think we could say at all that it would, I don't even think half-baked is like a question here. It's about like, you have to start and how is it gonna happen if you don't start and actually it's the process. It's the process that is the process. You know, it's kind of like what you said earlier. It's the learning and that happens through the doing. And so that's kind of another just lovely reminder, you know, for folks who are thinking a lot about, or not a lot, and just kind of pondering what it could look like for them. It's a lifelong, as you said, tapestry that just is a process.

Willow:
Yeah, and I think that I love what you shared too, because it just makes me think about the fact that I don't know a single person who has not felt imposter syndrome at some point or another in relationship to their work. I think in some ways that's so much of maturation and growing up and being an adult is realizing that everyone knows what they're doing and no one knows what they're doing. And it's just somewhere in the middle there is like something about what it means to be human, but. I think, yeah, also as it relates to environmentalism specifically, when we go to the root eco, meaning home, it just kind of illuminates how silly the whole thing is because imagine you feeling like you don't have a right or a place in protecting your home.

Madeleine:
Yeah.

Willow:
it's what you belong to. And so in order to fully allow yourself to be reclaimed by that and to see yourself as part of nature is to lend your voice to it.

Madeleine:
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I'm also thinking now about like you know, the idea of the tapestry and the process and transformation. And I have a wonderful, there's a really poignant quote. I feel like I keep quoting you, but you are a prolific writer, so I'm gonna quote you. And if by the way, you're listening to this episode and have not read Willow's work, of course, if you're not extremely inspired to, please, please do. But so in an interview with The Cut, you say, quote, on a more personal level as a trans woman, I think a lot about transformation. This is a big theme in my life. And I think about that through the lens of climate activism and climate justice. I know that transformation is possible. and I know that human beings are capable of transforming and changing. I know because I'm living it and I see it every day. I see it in the many trans people who are in my life. It can be hard and it can be brutal and there are parts that can be challenging but it's also magnificent, end quote. And so I would love to just talk about what transformation means to you, like both in the incredible difficulties and hardships that come with it, and also the immense joy. Like how can transformation be a guiding force?

Willow:
Well, to me, it all comes down to what, you know, Octavia Butler once wrote that God is change. I mean, to me, the answer to the question of what is transformation, it's everything, you know? And I think... I think one of the greatest ironies to me, and I'm grateful to be at the point where I can almost laugh about it, around the idea, you know, at the root of so much transphobia, right, is this idea that we're unnatural. And same for, you know, any kind of hatred or bigotry levied towards the queer community at large. But it's just so funny to me because, like, when you really start to parse out what is nature, what is what's natural, like nature is just evolution. It's just transformation, it's just change. But we have this idea of biology and life and everything else is being so fixed because we have these pesky little egos that want to assume that we have some semblance of control over life and things. But... life is this beautiful endless series of transformation and evolution and when you actually give yourself to that so much so much magic can unfold and for me this often comes up in relationship to climate work because and I'm sure I don't need to tell you this but the question that always comes up for me with people is well how do you stay hopeful? How do you know what

Madeleine:
Yeah.

Willow:
we get that all the time

Madeleine:
Yes.

Willow:
and You know, to me, I suppose I stay hopeful because if there's one thing I know it's that change is inevitable. The question is how much we're going to resist to it and what we're going to change into. And the world is changing, the future of our species is changing, it's being written and rewritten all the time. The question is what do we want that change to be? And the problem is we're dealing with government systems, people who want... things to stay the way that they've been. But we just know from looking at evolution and life and history, that that's just not how it works. And so we can deny change or we can accept change. We can deny God, we can accept God, we can deny nature, we can accept nature. So to me, transformation is everything and it's not some magical. beautiful... it's not just some magical, beautiful, perfect thing. It's also messy and gory and... challenging beyond measure, you know, it's the age-old butterfly metaphor of the caterpillar becoming completely liquefied and also it contains within it everything it needs to become the butterfly and So there's so much wisdom there also but This is a little bit of a tangent, but I also really love that butterflies go through what's called complete metamorphosis, right? They completely liquefy. That's how they emerge into what they emerge into. It's really one transformation, right? So we are we often get the butterfly metaphor when it comes to transness, which I love. It's beautiful. And at the same time, I have found myself much more drawn to dragonflies because dragonflies undergo what's known as incomplete metamorphosis. They start their lives as nymphs living underwater, which first of all, we love the name.

Madeleine:
God

Willow:
And

Madeleine:
nips hello.

Willow:
nymphs, they undergo a series of around 20 moltings, each time shedding themselves, slowly taking more and more and more of the shape that they're going to emerge into until around the 20th time when they shed their skin and wings emerge and they crawl up above the surface and they- soar off into the sky and begin this next phase of their life. And I love that so much because I think it's much more realistic when it comes to transformation. It's not something that we experience as a one and done overnight. We're in it, then we're not. I think life is this unending series of transformations and. you know on scales both small and large.

Madeleine:
Yeah, yeah, I'm thinking about the dragonfly and also the butterfly and how I think I mean, I can relate to this. I mean, the way that I relate to this is that, you know, as you're talking about a tapestry and I keep coming back to this because I really resonate with the idea of never quite landing on, you know, a one path. always being curious and always being open and excited to how it might evolve and maybe specifically, like really specifically what that could look like. For me is, okay, this is the type of work that I do right now. I love to, you know, I love to take my science background and help people understand that they don't have to have a science degree to, you know. to basically bridging the silos between the science world and everybody else in a furtherance of climate justice. And doing that creatively, but who knows what I'll be doing in two, five, 10, who knows what I'll be doing when I'm 83. And it's so, for me, it's so exciting. And I think that the metaphor of the butterfly is like. you have a complete metamorphosis, as you said, and then you stay a butterfly and you just kind of flutter by away. And I think that the dragonfly metaphor is so much more poignant and it really resonates. And I really appreciate you for offering that. I think that's a super helpful kind of framework to think about all of this.

Willow:
I am always happy to talk about dragonflies. It also makes me

Madeleine:
Tell

Willow:
think,

Madeleine:
us more Dragonfly

Willow:
you know,

Madeleine:
facts, please.

Willow:
well, I was actually gonna say, not related to dragonflies, I was just gonna say, I think... I think a lot also when we're talking about intuition, about sort of what's in the collective, both the individual and the collective, sort of unconscious space and what's sort of speaking through everyone. And I love that culturally we're having this moment around mycology. Feels

Madeleine:
Mmm.

Willow:
like people are so excited all of a sudden to talk about fungi.

Madeleine:
Yes.

Willow:
And you know, fungi are another aspect of... natural world that so relate to transformation to me, right, because they are the great decomposers. And I think that there is this human connection to them right now because people are understanding, feeling this need to change. They're feeling the pull of change and everything that comes with it, the death part, the life part of it, the recycling of matter from one form into another and Yeah, I think it's really present right now for a reason, because I think we are still in this, largely in this moment of transition, especially just on the heels of the pandemic.

Madeleine:
Yeah. I know it's a thing now. Everybody's very excited about fungi, which is so exciting because

Willow:
Very exciting.

Madeleine:
it's very exciting. I want to ask you, as we're talking about transformation and just the endless kind of shedding what... you see for yourself, like, okay, this is where you're at in your life and you're the editor-in-chief of Atmos and, you know, what are your, I guess, what are your personal dreams and what are your dreams for everybody? What are your dreams for trans people? What are your dreams for queer people? What is your... What's your vision? Let me into your mind.

Willow:
Small question.

Madeleine:
You have 30 seconds.

Willow:
Well, something I love about Atmos is that for me it is like a living organism, an entity, and it itself will continue to change and grow and part of that is like the team and the ecosystem that makes it up. You know, it's like being five years old now, I've had the privilege of watching different people come in and out and leave their mark. I watch it sort of change and be shaped. Obviously it has this overall vision that's held, but it is also changed by the people who make it up. And that is really exciting and dynamic to me. In terms of my role, at most as my child, I will always be involved in it. And also my first love is writing. And so, I have personal dreams at some point just... living in a little witchy cottage in the woods and writing books and going on nature walks. Of course that's sort of the dream. But also part of the sort of tapestry we were talking about earlier is like okay I know that that's hopefully somewhere on the tapestry and I'm going to try not to rush the stitches and getting there and you know enjoy where I'm at right now because it won't be forever. I think when it comes to the trans community. My hope is just that... Everyone has this base and the peace to just transform and know themselves and know authenticity within this lifetime. And you know... There's often this cultural narrative that like, part of, partly because of how we see trans people represented in stories, that being trans is some kind of hardship or that it's some kind of curse. being trans is magic. Living in a transphobic world is what's hard. And so my wish always is to shift our human world that transness grows within because when I have space within it, when I'm able to go a few weeks without something happening or, you know, whether it's in my life or the news I'm overcome by the wonder of what it is to live in a body that's blooming in different ways and And I want people to be able to experience that. And so that's my hope. I think the irony of conservatives accusing us of having some kind of trans agenda is like the only agenda we really have is to be left alone. And that's true for pretty much every trans person that I know is just wanting to live in peace. And that's what I wish for all human beings is that they're given the dignity to. embrace themselves authentically and to grow authentically in the world.

Madeleine:
Thank you so much for that. I very much will support your cottage dreams

Willow:
Hahaha

Madeleine:
in the future. So I'm thinking like just for the listener kind of bringing it back to them and I think we covered some really critical mindset shifts and frameworks for folks who are thinking about this work and wherever you are kind of on your quote unquote journey. And I think for the folks who are interested in these intersections of creativity and environmentalism, science, what have you, I guess what would you or even further just thought processes or frameworks, would you recommend for folks to explore? It's a very open-ended question, but.

Willow:
Yeah, and the first thing that really comes to mind is connecting with other people because I think like Yes, it's about finding our unique gifts and superpowers, but really it's about then how we combine them with other people's You know, I think about like Okay, I might you know writing might be my superpower or whatever, but if it weren't for the superpowers of so many people who I work with, that writing probably wouldn't end up anywhere. We have to combine our gifts in these different ways. And I think that was what was so fulfilling about starting Atmos was just how many creatives we approached who were brilliant art photographers or creative writers or what have you. and had never lent their skills to this cause, but were really excited to. And so I think finding other people who compliment your particular superpower once you kind of identify what that is. And by the way, if you're wondering what your superpower is, I think I often think about, one, the things that make you who you are, but two, most simply, I think it comes down to passion. Whatever

Madeleine:
Totally.

Willow:
that thing is that you're most passionate about, that is your superpower. It doesn't matter if you do... I mean, I can't even tell you how many times I've felt like I'm not a good writer, and I still feel that way in a lot of days, but I know I'm passionate about writing, and that's what matters, and I think that's what shines through. skill or training or whatever, it's about what you're really passionate toward. And I think a lot about passion like intuition because where does it come from? Why am I passionate about something that someone else is not passionate about, right? It's this seed that comes from who knows what, nature, nurture, probably some combination of the two. Either way, it grows in you. And I think that's something that... wants to be expressed. So yeah, I think finding others, like find, you know, whether it's in your community, forming groups, potlucks, whatever, people who just want to get together and have conversations about this thing. I mean, I can't even tell you how much inspiration has come from. Here's an example. I'm so fortunate I live in this building with four different apartments and none of us knew each other when we all kind of moved into this building and then lockdown happened and we all just kind of started talking and became friends and have stayed friends and we went camping, I don't know, maybe it was last fall and we had this one night where we were all just sitting around the fire and just talking about nature and what it means to us and to just be in a space where you can speak with other people about something that means so much to you and know that it means that much about them to them too, it's so generative and there's

Madeleine:
Yeah.

Willow:
so much inspiration that can come from that. So just getting together with other people, finding other people, you know, I have a lot of feelings about technology but social media is this beautifully strange

Madeleine:
Mm-hmm.

Willow:
and harmful. mycelial network that humans have and so use it tap into it find other people there and then use that as an opportunity to bring it offline and go you know touch grass as the kids say and

Madeleine:
Hehehehe

Willow:
let that be a jumping off point.

Madeleine:
Hmm, absolutely. I'm thinking about like what I've done when I've been in moments of being like, okay, I need like, what's my next iteration? Like, what's my next step? I feel a little bit stuck. And what I've done is just do like a survey of who's in my network who I've even never met, but maybe we had some kind of interaction or who would be willing to introduce me to someone who might have more wisdom on the topic that I'm interested in and just like have like a million conversations with people and just come to them and be like, do you have 15 minutes? People are so excited to connect. I mean, you know, generally speaking, people are, are you know, we're social beings and if we have knowledge and wisdom and just shared value system, we want to connect over that. And so much happens from all of those conversations. Like that's the process for me. And I think for so many people of finding clarity is you're like, oh, okay, I just... had a conversation with someone who shared a resource that I had never known about before. And then I saw something from that resource that made me so inspired. And I contacted the person who works with this, you know, organization or does this work or publish this piece and had a conversation with them. And it's just following these kind of threads when you feel stuck. So thank you for that. I very much resonate. I feel like this is a fantastic place to kind of feel a little bit of closure. Do you have anything that we didn't talk about that we didn't cover that you'd like to talk about?

Willow:
Honestly, I don't know. I mean, we covered so much wonderful ground and your questions are so insightful. I don't know if there's anything else. That's really coming to mind.

Madeleine:
Okay, amazing. Yeah, we covered a lot of wonderful ground. It's true. It was so wonderful to talk to you. Thank you so much, Willow.

Willow:
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Connection.

Madeleine:
connection. It's true. Okay, I'm going to end

Willow:
I also

Madeleine:
the

Willow:
feel like

Madeleine:
recording.

Willow:
our own threads have been sort of weaving their way around each other for a while, so it was really nice to just have this time with you, even just separate from this being a podcast and everything else.

Madeleine:
I know me too. Me too. I've been so excited to talk to you. And like since we started Super Seed, I was like, when are we going to be able to get Willow on? So the timing

Willow:
Hehehe

Madeleine:
was right. And then I was sick. And then here we are. Oh, wait, I forgot to end. Hold on.

Willow:
Here

Madeleine:
I meant

Willow:
we

Madeleine:
to

Willow:
are.