EP 11: Confidence, Consumerism, and Corporate Accountability in Fashion with Author Alec Leach

In the days between New York Fashion Week and Climate Week NYC, consumption, sustainability and the wide gap between them are on our minds. In this week’s episode, guest Alec Leach, a fashion and sustainability writer, offers his insight into the complicated world of so-called sustainable fashion. Alec shares his journey from fashion writer with a burgeoning interest in sustainability to author of The World is on Fire but We’re Still Buying Shoes, an insightful and beautifully written critique of consumerism and the corporations that fuel it.

Alec highlights the reality that many consumerist markets have yet to truly feel the effects of climate change and how important it is to effectively communicate about climate change in order to inspire real change. With this communication also comes the need to truly understand what is happening within industry in order to advocate for change. Alec introduces listeners to the complexity and duplicity within the fashion industry by detailing the many steps of the supply chain and the intense levels of alienation and exploitation within it. This leads Alec and Madeleine into a fascinating conversation about the question of responsibility in a system so widespread and global. 

Alec’s realistic and thoughtful approach is incredibly refreshing, and as he concludes, he encourages listeners on their own journey, reminding us of the importance of cultivating a strong personal style and a mindful relationship with fashion.   

Alec's Socials
Instagram: @alecleach_
Substack: alecleach.substack.com

Seeding Sovereignty's Socials
Instagram/TikTok/Twitter/YouTube: @seedingsovereignty
Website: www.seedingsovereignty.org

Madeleine's Socials
Instagram/TikTok: @madeleinemacgillivray
Website: www.madeleinemacgillivray.com

Transcript

Madeleine:
Hello Alec, welcome. Um, thank you so much for, for having this conversation. I've been, I will say I want to, I've been wanting to talk to you for a while. Um, and I will just say that I started following future dust years ago. And

Alec:
Okay,

Madeleine:
yes,

Alec:
damn

Madeleine:
maybe

Alec:
you've

Madeleine:
you

Alec:
been

Madeleine:
can

Alec:
around

Madeleine:
give, I've been around. I, maybe you can give the listener a little bit of context. Like what is, what is future dust?

Alec:
So I quit my old job at Heisner Biety in the end of 2018 and I was working as the fashion editor there so I was you know running the fashion coverage on the website but I was also commissioning a lot of freelance writers and when it came when I left there basically I didn't want to leave Berlin and there wasn't really anyone else in Berlin that I thought I could work for so I knew I had to go commissioning freelancers, I knew that like, it's pretty hard making a decent living as a freelance fashion writer, especially these days. And I figured that it would be good to sort of specialize on something, which is what how I sort of came into sustainability. And I figured that also, like, it's good to have some sort of calling card. I remember I remember the first And so I just thought of a cool name that sounded kind of cool, but not too super like sustainable or too kind of like eco or whatever. And that's how the future name came around. It's actually taken from a line from the awesome folk song that I was listening to at the time. called Spanish Sahara, which I don't think anybody picked up one at the time, but that's where I got the name from. And once my book came out, it just kind of got to the point where it was like, well, what am I hiding behind this username for? You know, my book's got my name on it. And it doesn't really seem to make sense to like, have like a, you know, like a sort of alternate name, you know, like a. the

Madeleine:
pseudonym.

Alec:
name, the words, a pseudonym, yeah, sorry, you would think that I would

Madeleine:
Yeah.

Alec:
know the name for that, but yeah, that word completely escaped me. Didn't really make sense, I was suing him anymore, so I just dropped it and shut down my personal account and future dust is now me, but it was me the whole time.

Madeleine:
Yeah, it was you the whole time. And

Alec:
Yeah.

Madeleine:
I also like, I didn't know that. And I was just like, you know, basically learning from this Instagram account. And that was at the beginning of like my own circular and fashion beginnings and career. And it really helped me kind of ground like, okay, what is happening in fashion? What is like an alternative way of thinking about all this stuff and thinking about production? And then when I saw that you had a book out, I was like, oh, it's a person. It's a person who's had this whole career. And it's been wonderful to like, yeah, it feels kind of funny to have just been following the Instagram account. And now to see your career continue to evolve and to the place where you have a book, it's wonderful. And I just can't wait to talk about it and get into it. So thank you for being. part of like that educational experience for me and so many other people. Yeah, so you know, you started talking about Pious Noviety. I feel like there's a bunch of places where I feel like we could start because I obviously really want to talk about your book. I want you to get into, you know, why you wrote it and really talk about what's in it and really unpack some of these complicated concepts for folks. But I also want to talk about your path and like... get a little bit more into detail on just the decisions that you made, the mindsets that you might've had to get yourself to this point. So specifically, I'm thinking about where you, kind of where you started. Did you have, starting really from the beginning, did you have a background in or a mindset? that was geared at all towards consumption from an extractive point of view. What's Alec's mindset pre-future dust?

Alec:
I studied politics at university. I have a degree in politics and international relations and my mom was a professor in international development. So kind of I definitely came into fashion from a background of kind of being very aware with what was going on with society. And most of my mates from when I was growing up working in nonprofits or work for the Labour Party in the UK or trade unions or this kind of stuff. So like. I definitely have always had a pretty strong sense of what was going on in the world. And after working in fashion for like five years, six years, I definitely got to the point where like I'd been to Paris Fashion Week so many times where and you know when you're when you're at Paris you... you know, you'll be maybe six shows a day, couple of presentations, couple of showroom appointments, and then you'll have another 10, 20 collections like in your inbox by the time you get back to your hotel. So like, you could literally see a hundred collections in five days or six days.

Madeleine:
Mm.

Alec:
And that was just Paris, not including London, New York, Milan, Pittiwomo in Florence, like there's like a whole circuit around it. And... I just got to the point where I was like, this is too much, like what is happening to all of these clothes? What's the point in all of these clothes? It just started to feel really, really excessive. And around that time, I'd also started going to the Copenhagen Fashion Summit, which is the big sustainability conference in Copenhagen. And that had really like opened my eyes to sort of how. sustainability work and what sustainability was. So by the time it came to me leaving Ice Knob, I was like, okay, well, I really feel really passionately about fashion. I still really love fashion, but like the sustainability stuff is kind of too serious to ignore and everyone that I knew in the space at the time kept on telling me like, we desperately need people with like, people to make it cool, basically. People to make sustainability like somehow kind of sexy and exciting. which it fundamentally isn't, I know. There's nothing really sexy about carbon accounting, but you need people out there with kind of communication skills, storytelling skills, to make it all kind of make sense to people. So I kind of knew that there was a lot of potential for me to do good work, I guess, in sustainability, and that's kind of how it started. And with the Future Does stuff, it was honestly like, I was just too shy and not confident enough to... put my own name on my own face to what I was saying, because I'd basically been hiding behind, you know, the thing when you're writing for another publication is that like the publication's voice is more present than yours, even if you, what you're writing is kind of personal and has your own voice attached to it, it's really about the publication that everyone remembers. So there was definitely a bit of shyness and a bit of kind of... I needed to get my confidence basically, which is, you know, it's been a pretty, almost five years, actually, since I sort of made that decision. So it's been a pretty slow, a pretty slow journey, but you know, sustainability is so complicated and it's such a big responsibility that I'm glad I didn't rush it, put it that way.

Madeleine:
Mm, I think that's a really interesting concept. And I think it's one that also, like, has recurred in these conversations in this podcast, too, is the idea of like, you don't have to know, I feel like when people who aren't in climate, so to speak, or like sustainability, and that's not their vocation, but they're really concerned and they are really critically thinking about how they can apply themselves more deeply. There tends to be maybe like a just a belief or like an assumption that you kind of have to like stick to one thing and run with it and all of a sudden your career is going to blossom. But I think I've had the same experience as you and I know that most people do too. It's just a process of exploration. It's a very existential thing to like figure out how you are making a difference and And it's organic, like it's natural. This is how life is slow. It doesn't, I mean, I would say also it's not, it doesn't sound slow. Like your process going from a life of, going to shows and like being in fashion, not from a sustainability side to now being an author of a book and being like such a trusted resource in this industry is actually very much not slow, but slow or not slow, it's like about impact and passion. And clearly this is something you're really passionate about. and that you're having a large impact. And I think the idea of being on one side of an industry before you go to the other, or maybe you're not on the other side, but just, you know what I mean? Kind of like being pre-circular. It's like, it's very valuable to have that perspective. It's very valuable to know the industry from the inside. I mean, maybe you can expand more on that, like how that has impacted your work now.

Alec:
Yeah, I mean, I still really... Make sure I've still got one foot kind of in the fashion industry. Like last week I was in Copenhagen for Fashion Week there, which is always a really good, um, a really great experience. You know, the Copenhagen compared to the rest of the fashion weeks out there, Copenhagen is definitely the most kind of conscious out of all of them. They're the first fashion week. I think the only fashion week to have sustainability criteria, you know, you have to be doing a certain amount of sustainability work to be able to even show there. Um, So like, that's a really, really great fit for me in terms of my values. And, you know, it was a really great networking opportunity, blah, blah. But like, it's really important for me to like, still be involved in the fashion industry, just because like, that's what gets me excited. Like it's what, it's, you know, I know it better than basically anything else. Um, at this point, you know, I've been working in there for 10 plus years. My network there is really good. I know how everything works. You know, I. I just don't want to kind of give that up. So like, I still very much have a foot in the fashion industry and I still do a lot of work, you know, in fashion. So I sort of, but you know, having said that, I'm sort of a bit kind of half in and half out because I think a lot of the, you know, a lot of the sustainability work that's getting done in fashion is either getting done really behind the scenes in a way where like it doesn't need to be talked about, you know, as we CSR managers and... supply chain, you know, experts that are just sort of going, doing due diligence and compliance and you know, road mapping and that kind of stuff, which doesn't really, that's not really what I do. And then there's obviously a lot of green washing as well, which isn't what I do either. So like, even within the sustainable fashion bubble, which really is a bubble, you know, it's a very, very small group of people. I'm sort of not really, I'm sort of one foot in, one foot out kind of thing.

Madeleine:
Mm, I totally agree with that. I think what I feel like I'm also kind of getting from what you're saying is like, you, and I feel this too, you have like a, you know, you've, you have been creative about your, like path, and it doesn't fit in, as you said, like, a due diligence like reporting role or like ESG or it's, it's outside of the box. And that's the kind of thing that we need more of. Um, so I find that that's, that's really cool. Like, you know, if people are kind of thinking about what do I do? Yes, of course you could apply to positions. Like, absolutely. We need, as you said, we need people doing the like unsexy work, um, all the time. But, and it is still like a small bubble, but we also need like, these solutions require like a high level of thinking outside of the box. And so like non-traditional career paths, I think are, are very critical here too.

Alec:
Yeah, I mean, I think something that people don't really realize is that like most sustainability work is basically just project management. You know, you talk about like implementing a new technology or a new fabric or, you know, road mapping, carbon reduction strategy, or, you know, trying to find a good and reliable like offsetting partner, like a lot of it's basically just kind of project management with an emphasis on environmental impact. And so like, I think, you know, I get asked this a lot, is like, oh, how can I get started in, how can I like do a sustainable job? And it's basically like, well, just do a normal job, but do it sustainably, you know? Or like do it with an emphasis and with knowledge and with a passion for sustainability. So like, you know, if you're a buyer, then start thinking about how like your... your footprint as a really key important part of the fashion system, how that can be done in a way that's moving in the right direction. The same goes for stylists, publicists. you know, editors, you know, whatever it is, like if you feel passionate about the issue, then just start finding ways of incorporating it into your work, you know, it's not about like quitting whatever you do and then just becoming a CSR manager because, you know, maybe you wouldn't be very good at it if your skillset, you know, I wouldn't be good at that job.

Madeleine:
Right.

Alec:
That's just like not what I do. I would absolutely suck at that. So like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna. try and do it and I'm not trying to like get made like chief impact officer of some company, you know, it's like

Madeleine:
Right.

Alec:
I wouldn't be good at it, you know, I'd be bad at it. So like, it's really just about thinking about your kind of footprint as an industry professional and what you can do to make at least part of that footprint part of the sustainability kind of landscape, I suppose.

Madeleine:
Mm, yeah, I totally agree with that. I think that's a really, really valuable perspective to have. It's like, it's with more than a perspective, it's, it's like a fact, you know, it's, it's absolutely. It's absolutely true. And I really want to like get into like, obviously your book, but I just am thinking about something you said a couple of minutes ago about like, sustainability, not being sexy. And I just have this. thought, like I'm just very curious as to what your perspective is, because I realized a couple years ago that like, why, why is it so unsexy? I'm trying to think about why it's so unsexy. And I'm thinking like, okay, why? Actually, like, if you think about it, like anybody who is, this is how I think about it. So I don't know if this is a thing, but this is just my like, Madeline science on this is that If somebody is trying to actively prolong the species, the human species and every other animal species, if somebody is taking steps to ensure that we can continue procreating, that is inherently the definition of sexy, right? That

Alec:
Yeah, yeah,

Madeleine:
is,

Alec:
yeah.

Madeleine:
we're talking about procreation and survival, so that is sexy at the least, at the most factual. stripped down sense of the word so like why is fashion and sustainable fashion so not sexy like what is with

Alec:
It's

Madeleine:
that?

Alec:
because we've not felt the effects of climate change really. You

Madeleine:
Mmm.

Alec:
know, I mean it's starting to happen now but like nobody's really kind of... You know, I know there's this really like, doomerist kind of opinion that says that like, well, people are just going to be really, really selfish all the time and like no one's going to give a shit about it. But like, generally we don't feel like we're living in the climate emergency. I think, you know, things are starting to change, you know, like this year has been, you know, very severe in terms of the weather and I think it just needs to take a little while for us to hit that kind of tipping point for people to start realizing like, oh, there's a reason that the weather is like completely, completely blocked right now. There's a reason that like... My holiday's canceled and there's a reason that, you know, like all these things that like really, really impact people in a kind of really meaningful, like felt way rather than an abstract, like, oh, there was a landslide on the other side of the world kind of thing.

Madeleine:
Right.

Alec:
I think that's like the big, the big reason. So we haven't really felt it ourselves yet. Or, you know, people in the sort of major consumerist markets have yet to really, really feel it themselves.

Madeleine:
Yeah, yeah, it's a it's that question of how what does it get have to get to? What point does have to get to in order for us to think critically and act critically? Yeah, so and that's like that's a whole other conversation. I want to talk about your book, though. I would love for you to give folks just kind of a like, yeah, basic overview. You know, you talked about a little bit already, but what's the gist? What's the book about? And then we can start unpacking.

Alec:
It's about why we buy clothes even though we know it's bad. Or kind of like more philosophically, it's about kind of trying to come to terms with consumerism in the age of the climate emergency. It's about trying to kind of find a healthier, kind of more mindful way of engaging with fashion. Because I don't want to make people feel bad for it. You know, I still buy clothes. I still work in fashion. I'm not trying to like. guilt trip anyone or shame anyone for buying stuff because I still buy stuff, you know, I still love clothes. So like, it's very much a book about sustainability from the perspective of someone that really, really loves clothes and is really concerned with what's happening in the world, I guess.

Madeleine:
Mm.

Alec:
That's the simplest way of putting it. But like, it came about because I went to all these sustainability conferences and panel talks and webinars, reading business fashion, you know, all this stuff. you know, people just in like throw away remarks, be like, oh, well, all of this sustainability progress doesn't matter because we're consuming more clothes than ever. And, you know, like every year would be like, wait, someone just mentioned that in passing. They didn't not really. The thing is with sustainability is it's so scientific and it's so kind of You know, it's almost like engineering or something is so you know, it's really, really technical that nobody really, nobody in that scene really kind of is able to question why we buy so many things and like why

Madeleine:
Mm.

Alec:
consumption is so out of control. And obviously, I've spent a very large time part of my life telling people to buy new clothes all the time. So like, I figured I had a pretty good understanding of why that was. And it really felt like the elephant in the room, you know, like people were talking nonstop about recycled polyester and organic cotton. Scope one through three emissions

Madeleine:
I'm going to go.

Alec:
and offsetting, you know, all this, all this stuff. And no one really questioned like, well, why do we buy so many clothes in the first place? And it's something we all know anecdotally that like, we don't have the best shopping habits. Like everyone knows that they have a lot of stuff in their wardrobe that they don't really like wearing. And everyone knows that like they have a lot of stuff that they, you know, maybe got rid of over the years. And, you know, people kind of know it anecdotally, but people don't really kind of. question themselves so that's basically why I wrote the book and you know the point I make again and again and again is that like buying less stuff is actually an opportunity to buy better and that's really what it's about, it's like how

Madeleine:
Hmm.

Alec:
can we have a more kind of mindful and intentional relationship with fashion as an industry rather than just kind of being force-fed new things all the time.

Madeleine:
Mm. Yeah, I, you know, as someone who has been on this, like personally, this kind of journey of experimenting with my relationship with consumption and the clothes that I wear, just hearing you talk, it's like I'm just envisioning how long it has taken me to get to the point of like consuming... I mean, I know we can talk about like resale markets too, because I'm very curious as to your thoughts on that. But just the idea of self-expression and like how we're all, you know, we all deserve, obviously, to be able to express ourselves. And from, you know, like what you're saying is obviously, so the self-expression part of fashion is not going anywhere. It's really just about, as you said, being like force-fed, like throw away garments. and having like a consumptive mindset. I'm curious as to what you think about like platforms like the RealReal or Poshmark. Like this shirt that I'm wearing, I bought on the RealReal for like $18. And you know, I don't know what it retails for, but obviously like my first question always was like, is it profitable? I know RealReal is not profitable. And like, is that a profitable or like a viable solution? But then just kind of a larger question being like the idea of self-expression in the face of, you know, consuming less.

Alec:
Yeah, I mean, second hand is awesome. Like second hand is pretty much the closest thing we have right now to like a very, very effective way of reducing your impact on the planet when it comes to shopping. So like second hand is basically, you know, don't be a dick, like don't get something shipped halfway around the world if you're only gonna wear it twice, you know, like don't get something imported from Japan that you're only gonna wear once, you know, it's, you know, you gotta, you still gotta be sensible, but like. biggest impact in the fashion industry is producing fabric. That's where the biggest planetary impact comes from. So like when you're buying something secondhand, the shipping emissions from, you know, the DHL truck or, you know, if it's ML or whatever, like that's pretty minimal compared to the emissions from actually producing and producing the fabric used to make it. So like that to me is a pretty strong signal that like secondhand is pretty much always good. Just like, like I said, don't be a dick, you know, don't like. buy something where it wants, then throw it away. Or like, you know, it's not an excuse to, you know, still treat clothes as if they're disposable because they're really not. But like, it's in general, a really, really amazing way of reducing your impact. It was really fun and it's, you know, it's a lot slower and it's a lot less trend obsessed. And you can really just kind of take your time with it and you can just sort of always have your eBay alerts on. And... you know, there's this other app called Gem, which is just like a search engine for secondhand clothes that I really like using where you can just like put in what you're looking for and set a reminder and kind of leave it at that. So like. I think secondhand's great. I love secondhand. It's a bit of a problem for me that like, I'm six foot five, so like a lot of,

Madeleine:
I'm gonna go.

Alec:
most of the stuff out there just doesn't fit me. So like it's quite hard for me to find stuff that works for me on the secondhand market. But having said that, I've done like a whole year of only buying secondhand. I still, it's still at least 50% of like the, my sort of search habits are like looking on. second hand size, you know, it's a really, especially for something like jeans or t-shirts or, you know, stuff that you know that like, there's loads and loads of it out there and it'll work really good quality, you can just kind of go about it that way. Yeah, I love

Madeleine:
Yeah.

Alec:
second hand, I think it's great.

Madeleine:
Yeah, I think that is actually like, it's funny though, because I'm thinking like, the real or like other secondhand websites or just thrifting, obviously, that's like my vice, because it's so much more affordable. And like, I don't have the income to be able to buy any like any of the stuff that I bought on the real obviously new. And so I just wonder like, the there's a little bit of like a slippery slope where it's like, oh, XYZ designer that I love, or, you know, even if it's not designer, but just like a beautiful, very unique, one of a kind, you know, piece from the 70s, whatever it may be. That's like more financially accessible, and I'm not contributing to my carbon footprint. So I feel like consumption then kind of can increase. And then my mindset is like, oh, hold on, should I be trying to pare down my closet? Or should I be like... acquiring new pieces and then donating more pieces. I guess I'm just kind of like sort of thinking out loud for folks who are maybe thinking about this too, because it seems like it takes time to kind of arrive at like a happy medium or like a balanced place with what you're consuming and what you're wearing.

Alec:
Yeah, it's really about figuring out what you need from your clothes.

Madeleine:
Yeah.

Alec:
That's the point I keep going back in the book is like, what do you need from this? And, you know, I sort of have the idea of like looking at fashion like a relationship. You need to be really thinking about what it is that you want out of it. You need to be thinking about how you can get what you want out of it. So for me, you know, the idea of like everyone having more or less a uniform of what works for them and what doesn't work for them is like a really nice way of looking at it. And that's an easy way to kind of make easier for a start you know to think like well this doesn't work for me this doesn't work for me this doesn't work for me but it does and I think it's also a better way to kind of really drastically reduce the amount of regret purchases you make and the amount of... throw away garments that you might end up purchasing. And nobody wants to buy something in any way I want. People don't really have that intention, but I think it's something that happens a lot when people don't really think purchases through and they just buy something just as like an indulgence or just because they're bored or just because they wanted something to kind of scratch the itch. So yeah, like I said, the point I keep making in the book is buying less kind of an opportunity to develop a more personal way of dressing kind of personal taste, I guess. I know especially for women, it's really hard because when a man wears the same thing over and over again, he's like an icon, a classic, like he looks like James Bond or something, but a woman wearing

Madeleine:
Right.

Alec:
the same thing all the time, it's like, well, what's wrong with her? So I know there's a lot of social pressure that's really, really applied specifically at women. And so maybe, I don't know if... I don't know how realistic it is for everybody to start thinking like that, but I think certainly for men, the idea of having your own uniform is really, really powerful and it's a really good way of being able to say, okay, well, what's me and what isn't me? But you know, I mean, it's like the social pressures, you know, relentless kind of everywhere. I just think, you know, by knowing what you're not into is really, really powerful and knowing that you... you don't like everything is also a really, it really builds your self-esteem. You know, it takes a lot of self-confidence to be able to say no to something that everyone else is doing. So like, I don't know whatever's trending right now, Barbie pink, you know, like, if you're really, really into Barbie pink, then you know, go wild, wild would be my guess. But like, if you don't really...

Madeleine:
Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, totally. And yeah, speaking, obviously, I cannot speak for all women, but, you know, it is it is a little bit more, you know, it's fun to express yourself in different ways. Right. Sometimes I want to wear a very feminine thing. Sometimes I want to be like very in my masculine and everywhere in between. And it's like, you know, to have a closet that is, you know, kind of streamlined. But and. but it is not constantly shifting. It's kind of hard to have that balance. That's where I think, you know, community can come in and like you can do clothing swaps with people around you or just kind of, you know, have like a refresh without consuming more. Yeah, I've gone to a few clothing swaps. Sometimes it's a hit or a miss, you know, but it's a good

Alec:
I think

Madeleine:
resource.

Alec:
when you're buying really high quality stuff, the resale potential is just so much higher that you don't really need to think of it as being so expensive. You know, if you buy something for

Madeleine:
Mmm.

Alec:
$200, you can maybe sell it for 70 or 80, so it kind of really only makes it 120, 130. So I think that's also a really nice way of... find something online. I think curated vintage is also a really really, or curated secondhand, is also like a really

Madeleine:
Yeah, yeah.

Alec:
good

Madeleine:
I feel like,

Alec:
option.

Madeleine:
yeah, like what this kind of, this conversation is, like for us, as you said, like it's such a bubble and you and I are having this conversation because we have access to these kinds of like community-based events or just this basic knowledge. And I just wanna take a step back on kind of like the, talking about the industry and the impact of the industry and how it kind of is in these, like obviously we need all solutions. One of them is creating community connections and like an experience that is like a very positive, quote unquote, like shopping experience rather than going, as you said, into like some sterile retail environment. But this is just a conversation for the, the people who have access to that to begin with. And I'm just thinking about, maybe this is a little bit of a different route to take, just a slightly different topic. I'm just thinking about how much of the fashion industry is synthetic and is petrochemical. And maybe we can talk a little bit about that because my background is actually in microplastics and plastics pollution. And that's how I got into fashion was realizing that two thirds of our clothes are made from oil and gas. And over a third, as you well know, of microplastics in the oceans are from synthetic. So clothing and climate is like a huge, huge conversation. I just want to open that up for us to talk a little bit about that and kind of talk about like just the fact that so often I think we think of clothes as like these individual products, but the effects of these materials are so systemic. And how can we demystify all of that? How can we demystify supply chains and materials and everything?

Alec:
I mean, a really big, you know, one of the reasons that I went out there with a book about buying glass was because that, you know, petrochemical based fabrics are obviously really, really bad for the planet, but so is forced labor, you know, toxic pesticide

Madeleine:
Yes.

Alec:
cotton, you know, so is like, you know, so is deforestation leather, you know, like it's, there's no perfect solution out there. And I think the best way to kind of navigate that as a consumer is like, instead of thinking like, well, I can only buy like monofiber pieces from brands that have X, Y, and Z certifications, you know, I think it's much better. It's just be like, well, I'm only going to buy stuff that I really, really love wearing. I'm going to wear it for ages. You know, I'm going to wear it for years and years. I think that's a much kind of more, um, it's a much sexier proposition. It's a much more exciting proposition. It feels kind of like inspiring, which is what fashion should be. Whereas saying like, well, I can't buy this material or I can't. this material is just like, you know, I understand, like if vegans don't wanna buy leather, that's, you know, 100%, you know, understandable, and that's a completely valid choice to make personally, but I don't think we should be going out there and saying, well, you shouldn't buy this fabric because of this, or you shouldn't buy this fabric because of this. this but yeah I mean you know it's most of fashion out there is synthetic but it's synthetic because we buy too many clothes you know that's the reason that so much synthetic fibers are used is because they're really cheap and you can pretty mass produce them like that's why polyester is the most used fiber in the fashion industry by such a long way it's because we just buy too many clothes and cheap clothes are made of plastic a lot of the time you know rise in fast fashion has really, really fueled that enormous increase in the use of synthetic fibers. And, you know, there's also a lot of really high end stuff made with synthetic fibers. You know, you can the other day I saw a two and a half thousand dollar Gucci jacket that was made by Balenciaga. Sorry. The other day I saw a two and a half thousand dollar Balenciaga jacket. It was 100% polyester. So like, it's not true that polyester is always bad or like polyester or, you know, this or that fabric is always bad, but like is the scale that's the thing that's really, really problematic. So like, I personally don't have a problem with buying leather. Whenever I do buy leather is mostly secondhand. You know,

Madeleine:
Yeah,

Alec:
I don't

Madeleine:
me too.

Alec:
think I don't think buying leather is, you know, necessarily unethical but like buying the kind of leather that's so mass-produced that, you know, a pair of Air Force Ones cost like, you know, buying cheap leather that's like produced at such an enormous scale like... the Air Force One or the Reebok shoes that made of leather, you know, whatever the sort of mass market leather shoes out there, like that's really, really problematic, you know, because it's just like such a high impact, high impact material and the deforestation connections and obviously the animal welfare side to it is, you know, like really, really problematic. So like we need to be just more mindful of how much stuff we buy.

Madeleine:
Hmm. Yeah, I'm also thinking about, like, the idea of labels, like in the book, you talk about like the maiden label being a lie. And you literally say, quote, the maiden label is a lie, it conceals how complex the fashion industry truly is, end quote. Like, can you talk about that a little bit? Just

Alec:
Yeah, so clothes aren't made in one place. There's not a, if you buy a t-shirt, there's not a fabric, there's not a factory somewhere that just makes t-shirts. It's a lot more complicated than that. So like, to take a t-shirt as an example, you basically have cotton that's grown on a cotton farm and it's then ginned, which is... where the kind of seeds and the wood is kind of like taken away from it. Then it's spun into thread, into yarn. It's woven or knitted into fabric. That fabric's then dyed. That dyed fabric is then cotton sewn into a t-shirt. So there's like five or six steps, you know, in that process of making a t-shirt. But they can happen all over the world. So you could have cotton that was grown in Uzbekistan, spun in India, woven in Bangladesh, cut and sewn in Italy, put together into a t-shirt, and then it would say made in Italy on the label because that's where that last step of that process happened. Which makes you think that like, oh, if a t-shirt is made in Italy, then it must be like super ethical and it must be made by some like. little old Italian Nonna

Madeleine:
Thanks

Alec:
in

Madeleine:
for

Alec:
like

Madeleine:
watching!

Alec:
a cute little factory somewhere out in like in Sardinia, in like Sicily somewhere, you know, and it's like all

Madeleine:
Right.

Alec:
gorgeous and like a scene out of the Godfather or something, you know, it's not

Madeleine:
I'm

Alec:
at

Madeleine:
gonna go.

Alec:
all, it's a huge, huge industrialized process and it happens all over the world and garment production just doesn't take place in one particular place. There's a brand out of Sweden called Asket who, um, kind of like an Evalaine, sort of Swedish Evalaine. They make amazing t-shirts. I really, really love those t-shirts. The quality for the money that you pay for them is like completely next level. They have on their labels every single step of the supply chain involved in it. So the t-shirts aren't made in Portugal. The final step of that process is in Portugal. they will detail like every single other component down to the polyester used in the label and used to stitch it. So like that's an example I lean on it in the book as well. I went on a trip to a couple of wool facilities with Asket years ago now, four or five years ago, and I used that to inform some sections of the book as well. But yeah it's something I go into more detail in the book but there's no such thing as making a garment in one particular place, it just doesn't exist.

Madeleine:
Yeah.

Alec:
And that's also a huge problem for sustainability is that we don't really understand just how complicated it is to make something. We don't understand how complicated it is to like, unmake it as well. I think people assume that like, oh, you've got a t-shirt that you don't want to wear anymore. You can just take it into one of those like clothing deposit bins and it's going to be like upcycled into something beautiful or it's going to be donated to someone that loves it. Whereas, you know, it's in fact like a really, really dirty, really wasteful process where like... chances are it's going to end up in a landfill or it's going to end up incinerated. It's really, we don't understand just how complicated consumerism really is because it's all hidden away from us.

Madeleine:
Mm. That's such an interesting concept. It's all hidden away. And this idea of having a label that actually details every step of the supply chain sort of shining a light on that mystery. And I feel like, you know, having the consumer understand the complexity of the process of what it takes to make a garment is a critical step in informing the consumer and like the mindset of kind of being more thoughtful. if you have the ability, just learning about the industry. It's so interesting, though, this idea of the complexity of the garments and how just the critical role that design plays. Maybe we can talk a little bit about that for a second. Like the idea of, I at one point worked at a startup that was doing textile recycling. And we had a project with a major luxury global luxury brand. And the brand was asking us to essentially find a solution for handbags. However, you know, the handbag, like the outer is leather, but then you have like a polyester lining that's glued on. And then you have like some zippers and hardware. And we ended up having to ship, I don't know if it actually happened, but the plan was to like ship these poor bags around. the United States to various facilities to get deconstructed. And it's like, if people just designed thoughtfully, we wouldn't have this issue in the same way.

Alec:
Yeah, I mean, it all comes down to the fact that the people that make things aren't responsible for what happens in the supply chain or what happens at the end of life. You know, like the people companies making all the stuff that ends up in a landfill aren't responsible for the fact that their products end up in a landfill. You know, that's a huge, huge problem. And that's, you know, when we talk about like sustainability being systemic, like that's ultimately what it comes down to is like. you can just make a bunch of stuff and it can be complete crap and it can end up in a landfill somewhere and it's not your problem as a business. It's really, it's completely crazy. It just doesn't make sense and it's something that really urgently needs to change if we want consumerism to be somehow sustainable.

Madeleine:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm thinking about obviously, EPR for listeners, extended producer responsibility, legislation that, you know, says Alec what you're saying, which is, hey, major corporation or hey, company that produces plastic bottles or whatever it may be, you're actually responsible for the cost of ensuring that those things are responsibly taken care of. I'm also thinking about like the label. of Ask It, having the details of the supply chain and the label, where is that? I don't know if you just have any kind of context. You don't have to have an answer to this question, but I was just thinking about the idea of, from a global perspective, what's happening legislatively or where the pressure can be put. How do we get other brands to detail supply chain information on their labels or... Are there countries that are leading the way in particular? Again, just like if you happen to have thoughts on this.

Alec:
I mean, it needs to not be an option. It needs to not be like all this stuff just needs to be regulated. And it needs to just be, we just need to live in a world where like waste and pollution are like bad for businesses, not like a sort of, well, you know, whatever, who cares, it's not our problem kind of thing. You know, like waste and pollution and. human rights violations and all that stuff need to be problems for businesses. They need to be like things with consequences. They can't be something that's just like, oh, well, what can you do about it? You know, it needs to be like something with serious, serious consequences. And again, it all comes down to the fact that in our society, like so long as a company makes loads and loads of money, it can basically, depending on the industry, of course, but they can basically just do what they want.

Madeleine:
Yeah. I just have like a couple more questions. One being in this vein, like I've been thinking a lot about degrowth and I would love to get your take on like the viability of degrowth. If you're seeing brands that are actually doing degrowth properly, like I know someone who has You know, it's like he's really trying to not make the most money and not produce the most product, but he also has to pay his employees and he also has to pay everybody who makes the product and he has to make a living himself. And it just seems like the morals are really conflicting with like the system and like what actually like the system that we're in. And so I've just been thinking a lot about that and like how that actually happens. Hmm

Alec:
be more conscious of the impact that we have on the planet. That's really what it comes down to. And if we want to live in a more sustainable society, that's gonna have to be something that like we do ourselves like working together and we need to sort of change our values and start to really, really consider these kinds of things. Because like a company can't give it to you. Like a business isn't like, the job of a business isn't to save the planet, you know, the job of a business is just to make money. And that's not a bad thing, but we need to live in a world

Madeleine:
Amen. I think as we wrap up or start to wrap up, I'm just thinking about firstly, maybe summarizing what we talked about for listeners. You said it a bunch of times, but maybe just having it said again, because it can never hurt, like your thoughts for people looking to find their style and their niche within. climate activism, literally like their actual style, but also their niche within their own work in climate activism. And then I'm also very curious about just what your next steps are. Like what does the future look like for Alex?

Alec:
Yeah, so I think disconnecting from having a like cultivating a more mindful and intentional relationship with the fashion industry is only going to be good for you. You know, it's going to be good for your wallet. It's going to be good for your self-esteem. It's going to be good for your wardrobe. You know, it it's really about. being something that's good for the planet as well. So I think that's one of the really exciting things about the idea of degrowth is that it can actually make you happier as well. The sort of tragic irony to consumerism is it doesn't make anybody happy anyway and we all know that. Everyone from Jesus to the guy on a head space to your grandmother can tell you that buying things isn't the secret to happiness. So like. I think we just need to kind of like live by that a little bit more. When it comes to activism, just think about what you're good at and just do that. You know, if you're a writer like I am... sustainability and activism and right about the climate or right about you know anything else that pushes the world in the right direction because it's all kind of the same bullshit at the end of the day like it's not it's not just the climate it's also it's also feminism it's also standing up for queer people it's standing up for marginalized people you know standing up against racism it's you know it's everything and it's all kind of entrenched power and it's all about kind of really building a network of people that want the world to be a better place. So I think just keep a really open mind and think about what you're good at and where you can have an impact. That's kind of the golden rule for me. And then in terms of my next steps, I'm gonna launch a newsletter. I've been working on it for a while. I'm finally on Substack.

Madeleine:
Awesome.

Alec:
Hopefully I can, I'm sort of a bit of a crazy, crazy hope that I might be able to make a living just from being able to write about things that I find interesting. And I'm hoping that Substack might be able to make that a reality, because the cool thing about being self-published is that I make a lot more money than you do from a conventional publishing deal, like

Madeleine:
Mm.

Alec:
doing a book of Penguin or whatever. The amount of money they give you per book is just a complete joke, and that whole industry is a giant scam, as far as I can tell.

Madeleine:
Mm.

Alec:
So being self-published sort of has a lot of potential in the long run because I make, you know, a lot more money from selling my book than someone would do with a conventional publisher, but I still can't resupport myself just off that at the moment. So the dream is to be able to just write about things that I care about and make a living off it. And I'm hoping that Substack will be able to kind of do that for me. So I'll be launching that actually in a couple of weeks. It's just aleckleach.substack.com.

Madeleine:
Okay, awesome. Great. We will link that when we publish the episode and we'll forward everybody over. And I can't wait to read it as well. Yeah, thank you so much Alec. Yeah, this was really a fantastic conversation. Really appreciate you taking the time and sharing all your wisdom and your experience. And I know that it's really going to help folks. It's going to resonate with folks. And yeah, thank you.

Alec:
Thank you. Thanks for having me.