EP 25: How to Stop Oil Pipelines, with Christian Vanizette of Chilli.app

What if stopping fossil fuel expansion projects and fighting for climate justice was as easy as taking a targeted digital action for a few minutes a day, and getting rewarded for it? Prepare to be fired up for this super motivating conversation. 

In this episode, Madeleine sits down with Christian Vanizette, a URL/IRL anti-fossil fuel campaigner and co-founder of Chilli.app, the world’s first climate action app. Christian breaks down how effective anti-fossil fuel campaigning is not as difficult as one might think, and how we can all get involved in ways that energize us, not burn us out. 

We discuss:
- How to take digital and IRL climate action daily
- How to find what motivates you to action 
- Pranking banks and mocking dictators(!)
- How to sustain action and be relentless in a way that doesn’t burn us out
- How to act in global solidarity against FF expansion no matter where you are
- Christian’s concrete advice for listeners on finding their climate superpowers! 

Resources mentioned in this episode:
- Book: Blueprint for Revolution: How to Use Rice Pudding, Lego Men, and Other Nonviolent Techniques to Galvanize Communities, Overthrow Dictators, or Simply Change the World
- Carbon bombs map: www.carbonbombs.org

Co-founder of Chilli, the first climate activism app, Christian Vanizette is a pioneer in leveraging technology for global impact. An Obama Scholar at Columbia University and a Forbes 30 Under 30 honoree, Christian hails from Tahiti and is the proud dad of 7-year-old Leo. Before founding Chilli, Christian co-founded the global NGO makesense.org, which runs development programs worldwide and oversees a €100 million impact fund to support social and environmental innovation. He is passionate about stopping oil and gas pipelines ✊

Follow Christian and Chilli! 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chilli.app 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/coconutsurfing
Website: https://www.chilli.club

Follow Seeding Sovereignty:
Instagram/TikTok/Twitter/YouTube: @seedingsovereignty
Website: www.seedingsovereignty.org

Follow Madeleine: 
Instagram/TikTok: @madeleinemacgillivray
Website: www.madeleinemacgillivray.com

Transcript

Unknown: 0:02

Hey, everyone, welcome to supersede a series of conversations between me, Madeleine MacGillivray and passionate folks from all sectors who have found their superpowers. This is about taking that big existential question of what can I do and turning it into specific, grounded actions and takeaways, we want to inspire you all to supersede the systemic powers of oppression and sit in your own powers to collectively build towards a joyful and equitable world. Christian Welcome, to supersede. Thank you. Menton, I've been wanting to talk to for a while. First of all, we met because you came to a seating event. You came to a super seed sort of live podcast recording where we were talking with Christy and Saad about diversifying green jobs. And you came up to me and you were like, Hi, I'm Christian I have an app. I have a climate app. And I was like, Cool. And, you know, then I realized that you are kind of like one of the most tapped in folks who is organizing and actually campaigning on a long term deep level, really strategically, and you are a treasure trove of information and experience on these topics. So I'm really excited to talk to you about all of these things. Thank you for inviting me. So I'm going to read your bio really quickly, just for listeners. Christian venizet Is the co founder of Chile, the first climate activism app. Christian is a pioneer in leveraging technology for global impact. He's an Obama scholar at Columbia Forbes 30, under 30. He is from Tahiti and the proud dad of seven year old Leo, before founding Chile, Christian co founded the global NGO makes sense.org which runs development programs worldwide and oversees a 100 million euro Impact Fund to support social, environmental innovation. He's passionate about stopping oil and gas pipelines. That's you, yes. Like the first thing on my mind is something that very exciting that happened two days ago. And I feel like we have to talk about that first, which is that you celebrated a very big win, like a very big win. So basically, in campaigning and in climate activism, we don't have wins all the time. And two days ago, there was a great news. Paul Watson, legendary activist defending the whales, one of the first members of Greenpeace, like really the one of the beginning of the environmental movement, was in jail in Denmark because Japan asked Denmark to put him to jail because Japan doesn't want him to stop them from wailing again. And so we campaigned for five months, many organizations, many people across the world, hundreds of activists who organized protests in front of the Danish embassies, digital actions every day on Chile. And we got the news two days ago that Paul Wesson is free. He won't be extradited to Japan, which would have been a death sentence for him, because he's already 75 and so we're excited. And this means not just it's great because it saved an activist, but also because now he can continue his work with all the other activists who are fighting against whaling. There's three countries who continue to do whaling, Japan, of course, the Faroe Island, Iceland, and so this means we can now fight to stop this once and for all to protect the wells, because it's one of the biggest carbon sinks on the planet, and also because it's beautiful creatures. Congratulations, yay. Paul is free and really largely to do with you and your work at Chile. Yeah, it's us. We've been organizing campaigns across the world, but there's also a big mobilization that happened in France, with the team of Sea Shepherd there, they got 1 million signatures on petition. The French president took position, and we did our part in other places, in the US, in the UK. So it was great campaign, and also it shows that in a moment where activists are being repressed and harassed by powerful corporations and governments, we can still have their back with people power. Wow. And so much people power, and that is what Chile kind of harnesses. Would you explain what you have created or CO created? Explain Chile to folks? Yes. So you guys have an iPhone. It's an app. Every day. You can take action with climate activists to do something great for a climate campaign. So it can be to stop an oil and gas pipeline that's going to emit like, 100 million tons of CO two. Or it can be to write to the Prime Minister of Denmark so they really spoil Watson, for example. Or it can be to send an email to the president of Brazil so they do better to protect the Amazonia and based on the place where you're in the world, based on who's your bank or who's your insurance company, you get tailored call to actions for you where your voice matters even more as a consumer, as a citizen of certain places. And there's a lot of campaigns in New York City too, because that's where we are today. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that intrigues me so much about this app because there are other apps that you know sort of tackle this issue of like individual action and harnessing that and kind of gamifying it a little bit, because that is the most, if not one of the most effective ways to motivate folks to action. But I think what's unique about Chile is what you're talking about, you're harnessing the power of of tech, basically, to, like, create very specialized, very specific and very focused actions and calls to action that you know not. It's not just like someone randomly emailing the representative. It is a very targeted and strategic approach. How did you develop that? And, like, you know, like, where did that come from? It's also not just digital actions. Like, actually, when you take an action on Chile, you send an email, you earn coins, and then you give these coins to real groups on the ground who are going to go to go protest in front of the representative office that you send an email to, or in front of the banks that you just sent an email to. So there's going to be boots on the ground going in real life thanks to the coins you give to them, because we fund them with our foundation, so they can have the means and tools to go and rally and recruit people and organize this protest. So it's really this relentless online actions that you do, but also the offline actions that grassroots groups can take. And when you blend both, you create a new way of campaigning that is relentless, and that makes it that if you want to, for example, a bank like Citibank, to stop financing fossil fuels, if you organize every day like that. It might be just like 5% of their business, but then it becomes 99% of their problems, because people keep talking about this. And so it's this blend that works. And so this form of campaigning is just an evolution. If you look, for example, there was change.org with the petitions. And so there's new forms and techniques that evolved with the new context in which we work in. And so yeah, that's how it came to life. And one of the first campaign we took on, and we based the approach of Chile and how it works based on the success of that campaign, is the campaign to stop the longest heated crude oil pipeline in the world. It's called the ECOP, the East African crude oil pipeline. It's like made in Uganda and Tanzania, and it's built by a big French oil company named total and so to stop this pipeline, which would emit 400 million tons of carbon emission, which is massive. It's like 10% of carbon emission of a country like France or the UK every year, just one project, we campaign against different banks across the world. We got 30 banks to drop to say we won't finance this project, and so the French company doesn't have the billions it needs to build the pipeline and to make those banks decide to not finance it. It was this kind of actions, like emails, social comments, like commenting on the LinkedIn of the CEO, and at the same time, boots on the ground, going in front of the bank every day. So you had like seven people in Tokyo every day in front of a Japanese bank. And because they are not used to have protests there, even just said seven people made a difference. So we replicate those techniques, and then you just do it again and again. And you can have banks dropping projects, insurance dropping projects. You can have suppliers who stops supporting and also governments. Wow, it's such a strategic, targeted approach. And as you're saying, it's like you are literally combining the digital with the IRL and those two together. It's like it's, as you said, it's relentless. And I saw it firsthand, because we did, you know, summer of heat, you also supported summer of heat, you know, this year in New York, where activists and organizers were relentlessly showing up at the headquarters of Citibank. That energizes me so much, and I feel like it would energize anyone listening, and so for that energy to turn into joining and action. What do people do? So the Citibank example is an amazing example of a campaign. Citibank is the largest bank in the world, funding fossil fuels, and the scientists have said that the priority if we want to solve climate change is no new oil and gas infrastructure. It doesn't mean no oil from tomorrow, because we still need it for cars and stuff. But if we build new fossil fuel projects, we're gonna, like, it's gonna be really hard to get out of oil in the long term. And so the non new oil and gas and so Citibank, the tactic that were used by great groups like that organized the summer of it is really to put pressure on them and be relentless. And we did this approach in Europe, and we got the biggest bank of Europe, which is bien pearite, the French bank, to announce a few months ago that they would stop financing not just new oil and gas projects, but they would stop financing companies who keep on doing oil and gas projects. So they would stop financing Big Oil. Basically, I. And it's the biggest bank of Europe. And so in the US, the biggest one finance infrastructure is Citibank. So the same tactic and approach. And so when you blend this kind of tactics of relentless online and offline organizing, and if you add like taking them to court for climate in action, if you add like investigations and all these kinds of other forms of campaigning, you can actually get those big corporates to drop so Citibank has just announced that they would stop financing projects in the Amazon region. It's not enough. And so now the fight continues, and hopefully we're going to win. And so people on Chile have been able to send, like, 1000s of emails, 1000s of digital action but at the same time, gave their coins to support the campaign so that the activists have more means to organize and can continue the fight. It's just so cool, like it's just so cool. So we calculated, for every 0.00 24 Euro. I don't know how much is it in dollar, must be 0.00$30 that you give to activists that operates on Chile you stop one ton of carbon emissions. And if you look at the carbon capture when it's greenwashed, because it's done by Big Oil, it's 30 euro to save one ton of carbon emission. And it's if it's a big, big oil company doing it, and usually they reuse the carbon they capture to create more fracking. So this is like totally green watch, but the real price is around 250 euro for good carbon capture per ton of carbon. So activism is really the most efficient way to stop carbon emissions, basically through Chile, not just through Chile. The thing we want to build is just an entry point so people can get started, because not everyone can go to the protest, go to the rally. Sometimes parents, you have kids, you still want to contribute, but you don't have the time. And with Chile, we want to make it an easy way to get into that world and to support the people who are on the ground and who dedicate their lives to stopping climate change, yeah, yeah. There's really a camaraderie and a collaboration with people who are doing the campaigning, doing the strategy, and who have dedicated their lives like you have, and then folks who are just so hungry for doing something and something that you know we talk about and like the purpose of this podcast is to really ground what it looks like to work in climate justice, but really just generally, to know your superpowers as a person, to inspire not just climate but just Social Change in general, and fight for justice, but oftentimes that kind of esoteric idea of which is also a very personal journey of, who am I, that people are going through, that we're trying to unpack, needs to come alongside with, like specific, tangible actions that people can take. And so I think this is an incredible place to start. And I think people underestimate the superpowers they have, because, like for example, to get a big bank like the biggest bank of Europe, like BNP, took care to stop fossil fuels all it needs. It's 5000 of its own clients telling them, I don't want my money to go there. And this raise an alert for them in terms of reputations towards their own clients, and then they would say, oh, maybe we should look at this issue and as consumers, as citizens, we have power in our voices. It's just, how do we use it more? And the whole game of these big old companies or authoritarian leaders is to make you feel powerless. But even just feeling that you're in this together with 100 people, 200 people gets you going, and then it grows. And so, yeah, everyone listening, like, just ask yourself, what is it that you're a client of, like, where do you vote? And how can you use that voice that you have to make a change on climate? And there's going to be many, many avenues. That is a question that I ask guests to think about and offer to our audience, kind of at the end of conversations. But thank you for for taking opportunity. Because, yes, there's so much opportunity for people, and I think it's hard to sort of identify where they might have power. One of our previous guests shout out. Whitney bauck said that, you know, you have more power than you think. She talks to sometimes, people who have billions of dollars who think that they, you know, aren't able to do enough, and so thinking relatively, it's really helpful to be reminded that you really have a lot of power. And activists and citizens, you don't need that much money to create an impact. I'll give you an example in France to get this bank to drop and find that in fossil fuels, it's something you can't do in the US, but works really well in France. It's five year old, literally, to buy painting and to go repaint the bank and so, oh, to buy paint, paint, and then you go and you. Spread it on the bank, and then that's how we got this bank to drop. And it was five euro. Don't do it in America, but in France, it was not illegal anymore, because they want the court case. But it's just like, this is one, like, bit radical example, but it takes five euro to change that. The other thing that people don't realize is that if you live in places like New York, like London, in those financial centers, most of these fossil fuel projects and these companies, they come to find funding here. And oftentimes it's to find funding in New York, in London, to do projects in places where it's not democracies. So the example of the ECOP is a dictatorship. And so our friends in Uganda and Tanzania who oppose this pipeline, they get put in jail, and it's really hard for them to speak up. And so acting in New York so that Citibank and other banks don't finance these projects in Uganda when there's bigger democratic spaces that you can use is also to show solidarity with people that are on the front lines. And so ask yourself, Where do I live, and how can I be of support and in solidarity with the bigger movement? Because, yeah, maybe from New York. It can help my friends in Uganda, and overall, it helps me. Because if there's not 400 million tons of CO two going in the atmosphere, it's good news for the climate. It's mean, like your kids are going to be able to grow up all there in a world that's more beautiful. Can we go back a little bit to sort of your origin story? Yes, and like share more about how you got started in this work, and feel free to go back as far as you want. I mean, you're, you were born in Tahiti. There's something I realized. My friend told me, when you're born in an island like Tahiti, like you have to really imagine like, it's exactly how you think about it. It's like beautiful blue lagoons, like small islands, but with steep mountains like luxurious green and you really are surrounded by nature that you don't even realize. What is nature. You take it for granted. Yeah, it's just like, that's how it is. And so, so then it's like you're part of nature, and nature is part of you, in a way. And so it's just like being a fish in water, and you don't know what is water, right? And so this is, like, really amazing, but then you don't realize it. And then I went to study in France, that's where I, like, started to be in Paris, in big cities, and then you realize, Oh, wow. Like, that's not the same. If you grow up in Paris or in New York and stuff, you don't see as much nature and, yeah, so it's also harder, maybe, to feel connected to it. But I didn't realize it before I moved from Tahiti, right? And, and when did you move? I moved when I was 2020, years old. So you lived until, yeah, you lived your entire adult, young adult life. Yeah, it was a bit of a shock. The first time I took the train, I was 20 years old, and I was really worried of falling asleep and missing the stops. But yeah, I grew up in tidy nature, and then what really got me, like active, into doing things for the planet, is really the fact that one of the key thing that's happening because of climate change is that the coral reefs, the corals are bleaching, they're becoming like, white, and it means, like, fish are not going and stuff. And then you realize, oh my god, this can happen in my lifetime, that, yeah, the coral reefs that we're seeing, and these go in the lagoon, and then you're like, oh my god, you won't see them anymore. And I think of my kid, who's like, seven, and if it continues like that, by the time he'll turn 15, will be gone. And so this was, this is really scary for me. And at the same time, it's not the like, we still have a High Island that are enough high up so we like, they won't disappear underwater. But when you think of other places like Sen and stuff, it's and you're like, wow, we're losing our homes. And then you realize, well, actually places like Paris are even more in danger because of the heat waves and things like that. And so, yeah, it's global issue. Now it's happening. For me, it was just easier because I feel really connected to nature, and it's just like, how do we build this kind of sense of connection between people and nature? Because I think it's more powerful than to talk about, let's stop climate change, is to, how do we make people feel like and really fall in love with nature and feel it so that they want to protect it, because you only want to protect what you love. And I think this is a powerful tool for the climate fight. Is the ocean, the forest, all these things that most people feel connected to. And how do we recreate that link? I think that's going to be the key. Yeah, it's kind of like the chilly strategy of digital and on the ground. Binding. And then there's like a third one, which is reconnecting. And you know, we are nature, because you won't wake up in the morning thinking, I want to stop climate change, but you wake up in the morning saying, I love the ocean. And if you live next to the ocean, you want to protect it, or you want to go walk in the forest. And so this kind of feelings is what we need to use to get more people involved, not the brain, like stop climate change, which is hard to understand, and I think that's the threshold we need to do. But now there's so many problem increases at the same time, it's gonna be a tough few years coming. Yeah, it is gonna be a tough few years coming. Do Can we talk about that a little bit? I just think I have kind of resisted, you know, yeah, I recognize that it might be a it comes from a place of privilege. It also comes from a place of kind of overwhelm, and I haven't really given a ton of thought, per se, to exactly what it's going to look like. I just, I'm not sure how I feel about that. I'm trying not to analyze it, but I'm I'm scared and I'm worried and I'm also energized. How do you think about the next four years? Because one of the things that I also appreciate having you on and having this conversation with you is that you have a perspective that is more global. You have you directly work with and, you know, collaborate on campaigns and make stuff happen in Europe and other countries, eCoP Africa, and also you're in the US now, so you get to see what activism looks like, kind of across the world. And those insights are really important. Because I think oftentimes, when you're in one place, and you know, I'm just in New York City, I'm from New York, I center of the known universe. You joke, the center of the known universe, the center of my known universe, at least. And I think I can get a little bit in my bubble about what activism and what climate looks like in just New York, but it's really beautiful to think about the global community of people trying to stop carbon bombs and trying to fight for climate justice. So I appreciate your insights on that. And so as someone who has more of a global perspective and directly works with folks outside of the US and folks inside of the US, what is the perception and what are the main fears from a perspective of of the incoming administration, if you can speak to that. Or just like, how are you thinking about organizing at Chile? Yeah, so, like, we live in a world that's like capitalist, capitalism across the world, and unfortunately, and the center of capitalism across the world, when you work on climate change, and you look at the carbon emissions and where does the majority of the emissions come from, which country, where does the financing of these emissions come from to build this kind of new, massive fossil fuel projects that just there's 420 new there's 420 what's called carbon booms. It's like fossil fuel projects that would emit more than 1 billion ton of carbon emission over their lifetime. We map them on the map, carbon bombs.org, you can go see them, and you can see who finances them. And when you look at this map, all the roads lead to the US, like the biggest carbon bomb in the world, 16 billion tons of carbon emission is just one carbon bomb that will blow up the Paris Agreement. Like objective of 1.5 is the Permian Basin in Texas. And so first, instead of emission, it's here, and also in terms of financing, and the city where you grew up in, which is New York, is the center of Finance, Financial Center of the whole world. And so there's so much that can be done from here. And so the what's happened, like the space, and how can we organize in the US to stop these projects is the key to solve climate change. Now, it's lucky that there's some Democratic spaces still in the US where you can organize. The thing that I'm a bit worried about, and that I've seen across the world is that as the crisis is getting worse, politicians and big corporations, instead of helping solve the crisis, they fight the activists and the people who are trying to stop this crisis from happening. And so we started with Paul Watson, but this repression of these activists is increasing all across the world. And so what I'm a bit worried about is that it's so important to organize in the US, because we can't solve climate change otherwise, and at the same time, it seems like it's going to be more and more complicated to organize, that there's going to be more legal threats, more persecutions of the activists. And so it become a democratic questions right now, when you don't have democratic spaces, there. And you can't do activism and you can't solve these problems. So the climate crisis and the democratic crisis are deeply intertwined, because we can't solve this problem without democracies. And so how people in the US are going to resist in the next two years? The cool thing is that you guys are a federal state, so it's not a federal country, so it's not going to be the same depending on the states you're in. And so I think it's going to be like, how do you play defense at the federal level so they don't undo everything, and how do you play offense at the local level, so that the progressive democratic states, like New York State or like California, push the frontier of climate action, so that other states copy. And if you do these two strategies, hopefully it can work, and if we use some solidarity across border, and I give you an example, the Permian Basin, the fracking in Texas, actually, that Trump is president now gives a huge opportunity to stop this carbon bomb, because 50% of the exports of the permanent machine is for Europe and especially Germany, but the people in Europe and Germany don't want to be dependent on Trump for their energy, because the guy is like, nuts. And so suddenly you have an opportunity to convince the European countries to say, let's not import the gas from Texas that is being fracked, and suddenly you can have less demand. So even if Trump wants to double down on the drilling in Texas, there's not going to be enough people to buy it, and so he's not going to be able to sell it. And so this there's some cracks that can be found in the system that we can play with. Another example is in London, you have an insurance marketplace called Lloyds of London's and 40% of the fossil fuel projects across the world try to find insurance there. So from one building in London, you can actually put pressure to stop an LNG terminal in Louisiana, because they find insurance in London. And in London, it's still okay to organize, even if the repression have increased. So you can play like that with the different like nodes in the financial system to put pressure and to campaign strategically and to stop things, even if Trump wants to continue to drill, it's, it's like, I love that. You know, this is so energizing because I just want to take a step back, because I feel like there's, there's a lot of ways that we can expand on and follow the threads of what you're talking about, but I just want to just like, observe the fact that you really inspire me and people to to like, do this, to do what you're doing. I think that it requires a level of curiosity. What can we find like that? To me, is so interesting. I had no idea that. You know, 40% of insured projects comes from one building in London. Like that is the type of work that is necessary to do that kind of research and find these, these connections. I love that you guys have a map like that is so cool. A carbon ball is horrifying. What carbon bomb map is that, by the way, just like is what webs. I'll link it. I'll link it in the Okay, carbon bombs over, getting back to thinking about like, the kind of geopolitics of it. It's really interesting to hear that because I also didn't know about the LNG like strategy around where we can kind of find that in find that crack. How do you find those cracks? Like, how did you when you look at the activist groups, and how did they decide, what are we going to campaign on, and stuff like that? Yeah, it's based on just like data, like the on the carbon emissions, you just look at what is the biggest source of carbon emissions happening. And a lot of this is grounded in the science of what the IPCC and the climate scientists say, like the priority non new island. So people like you just go and you follow the site the science, you analyze the market mechanism, and then you find those cracks. The hard part is it's so complex. How you break it down in small bits, so that the everyday citizen can be like, Oh, my God, I can participate in this because I'm in this bank, etc. And so it's just about, how do we make it easier and simple? But the cool thing is that every time there's a big change, it reshuffled the cards, and then you can find new opportunities. And so the fact that Trump is in power, is bad news for climate, but we can still get some big wins. And then the question becomes, how do we safeguard faces to keep organizing? And yeah, it's gonna be interesting two years. It's gonna be an interesting two years. And I love before the midterms. That's why I said two years. Yeah, two years before the midterms, exactly. And in terms of I love this framework of thinking about it, from defense on the federal side and offense on the state level. And it's true that you know something that actually we talk about and that we've been working on at seating is inspiring more grassroots political action and advocacy. See, and similarly with Chile, I mean, like literally taking action in terms of making relationships with the people that you have voted into power who listen to you and who in fact, work for you, and realizing that you don't have to be a lifelong political organizer to know and you don't have to know exactly the inner workings of your local politics to inspire political change and fight for critical climate justice related legislation to pass. And by the way, when I say climate justice, I'm talking about anything and everything you know, resources, mutual aid, shelter, housing for migrants, all of it is connected. And so I just want to put a pin in that idea, because it's really powerful, and it also is just connected to just finding your people, you know, community, and how all of these things work together. It's like being connected to an incredible strategic community of people doing like, highly targeted actions on a platform like Chile on Chile, showing up if you can, if you're able, depending on where you are, and also just looking at wherever you are, what is going on, where you are, and getting to know your people, getting to know your neighbors, and creating those lateral connections. I talk about this all the time, and I think it's important to repeat it often is just lateral connections are the key to resiliency in the face of climate and whatever it may be, and so continuing to, like, make that mycelial network by just knowing people around you and being able to support you and support each other in times of crisis and not is really critical as all of this is happening, yeah. Give you one example. There's, there was a 19 years old, like, young woman on Chile, yeah, who is in school and just finished high school, and she was like, Oh, I really want to push for this bill so that climate change become like, mandatory in the curriculums in Illinois. And then she campaigned on chili, like she's just just an everyday citizen. She wasn't an activist, she didn't had a huge follow on Instagram, and then hundreds of people rallied around her, and then she made it happen. And so this is what you mean, like, it's like, how do we give more access to this platform, the lateral connection to more people, so that people can build the change they want to see. And we've seen this story again and again, and so it's not that hard. It's just about saying what you want to achieve, and then you like, with platforms like Chile and others, it will rally other people's won't join you, yeah. And when you look like, really, I've been campaigning since five years against biggest oil companies in the world, and the worst enemies are 24 year old woman who have Instagram account and just talk about what's happening, and it becomes the worst enemy of a CEO of a billion dollar company, because just there's a lot of people who care about the same thing, and that's something that gives me hope, is that you don't need to be a 70 year old, super Experienced to start to make the change, you can just go for it. You open an Instagram account, you start telling your story, and then, like, you go, Wow, it's so energizing. That's why I love talking to you, because you you are so connected with this, this energy in this world. And I think it's wonderful to have a balance of very motivate, like, it's very motivating, and it's energizing. And also the we Okay, so we talk about this, I would love to have this kind of mini conversation, because we've talked about it before, but our approaches to activism or climate are different. Just, yeah, we have different, like, tendencies and different needs as human beings. And so we've talked about the idea that, you know, having myself been involved in in advocacy, in like an integral level since childhood, I have a more kind of low and slow, long term approach to activism that does not include lots of adrenaline, and you have an approach to activism that, from what I've observed with you, and like going to actions with you and talking with You, that is more kind of like you have these big wins, and not all the time, obviously, a lot of the time. It's just a sustained pressure over time. It's another thing that another wonderful guest of ours, Dr Marcus Erickson, talked about, which is small wins over time, and just keep the pressure your you know, as for as long as you can, which this is the work of our lives, so hopefully, as long as you are physically able. But yeah, let's talk about that. Because, like, how do you sustain yourself? Because I remember saying to you, kind of like, I'm worried you're gonna burn out, basically, but maybe I was projecting my own experience, and your answer was really interesting. Yeah. The reason I wanted to meet you also was the fact that you've been in this for so long. Like, you were 15 when you took, like, the your government to court for climate in action, yeah, and you've been at it for like, more than me. Like it's been only four or five years. I do you've been working right, right, right where I was working before. But, like, the campaigning is only favianna. So my question is, how can I sustain? And that's what, like, I love the workshops you do on, like, finding your superpower and how you sustain, because I've seen so many activists burning out around me, and then, like, it's sad, because someone will campaign hard for six months, and then they burn out, and so then you don't see them for the next five years. And so the movement lose overall. And campaigning is hard, especially if you're on the front line. It's hard, like, it's, it's, it's hard stuff. You know, people get killed. Yes, your friends get killed. Your friends get put in jail. It's not like, even mentally, it's, it's complicated sacrifice. And so the question for me is, how can we sustain that? And there's how we sustain ourselves. But also, the big thing we're trying with Chile is that, how do we build technology to make it easier, like, how can I run 15 campaigns at the same time against 15 pipelines across the world? And it all it takes me is the same amount of work that I've been doing for one but thanks to technology, I can run 15 and then you increase your potential impact without having to increase your workload and everything. And so this is the things, is that we need to build infrastructures and tools that allow us to be more impactful without having to work more or burn out. And then the other thing is, and I took it from you, is that you don't think of it like, Oh, I'm happy when I win, I'm sad when I lose. It just has to become a way of of being and embodying your values. And it's like you resist just because it's the way of surviving, even as a species, we need to solve this climate change otherwise. And so it becomes more of like kind of a mantra, or something you do just because you know it has to be done, no matter the end result. So then the question becomes, how do you have fun at the same time? And the cool thing about activism is that is the Okay, it's hard, but it's also the most funny moment of my life, like one of the ways we got these banks to drop funding the biggest pipeline in the world was by making pranks. So we built like a whole campaign, which was making a fake oil pipeline going all across Europe and sending 1000s of letters to people saying, you have to leave your home because a new pipeline is going to be built in a wealthy neighborhood of France. We were sending message, and then it went all over the news because people freaked out. We created a fake call center when they could call about the week up the Western European crude oil pipeline, there was like fake work in progress. In some cities, you had interviews of a bakery who was saying, again, work at the city center, I'm not gonna have clients, and all of this for a fucking pipeline. And so this was so fun, it was all over the news, and it was a prank organized with 1000 people. Like, where did you get to organize pranks with 1000 people? And it makes good to the world, you know. So this is all the funny part, and the best tool that we have as activists is art and communication. And so it's beauty. It's, How do you use these beautiful things that human can create? You just use it for good. And so it's, yeah, it's hard, but it's also fun. And so I encourage everyone to start and try, yeah, yeah. It's, it's you're having fun, which, yeah, as long as you have fun, you don't burn out. I mean that, yeah, and I think that's good fun. Yeah, it was good fun. I want to, I want to also, you know, you know, there's a lot of folks fighting for their survival and fighting, fighting extraction and expansion in their homes. Definitely thinking about the people in the Permian Basin, the folks that we get to work with and, you know St James Parish and folks who are really experiencing severe when you meet them, they're the most joyful yes and fun person ever. Yes, yes exactly, because humor sustains, and joy is what sustains. This is what a lot Exactly. And so imbuing the mindset of this work from a place where of that because that is connection and that is community, is a very, very important mindset shift for a lot of folks who I think maybe if you're okay, I've experienced this. I've experienced witnessing people who are so kind of excited and eager to use their energy and their powers for activism, but coming from a place of kind of thinking that it has to be a sacrifice, and coming from a place maybe of like guilt or something or survivor. Skills, if it isn't a sacrifice, but that is ultimately what is gonna burn you out. And the real Sustainer is joy. And it's really fun to watch you have fun with what you're doing, because also these are huge, huge wins. And you're not gonna have wins all the time, but you have to still derive joy when you don't have wins. Trolling the powerful is the most running thing ever. And like, there's an example of even like in there's an amazing book, I think I don't know which country exactly it is in Europe, but it's an activist who wrote a book about how to take down a dictator, and the main lesson of his book is humor and ridiculizing them yes, and ridiculing ridiculing the dictator Yes, so that then no one takes them seriously and then, and I think it's a book that everyone in the US should read for the next two years, because then you learn like tactics on how do you use humor and fun, also to fight against authoritarianism and these kind of things. And yeah, if I think it's it's useful. But as you said, it's like the people I've met doing this work are so motivated, incredible. They have amazing, like resistance spirit, that it's the it's hard, but at the same time, I'm so happy I get to spend time, yeah, with everyone fighting against these projects, and we're in this together, because if they lose, we also lose, no matter where you're on the planet, because the carbon emissions and the global warming is for everyone, yeah, exactly. And also dancing, yeah, yeah. We have in Paris. We opened a museum for activism, and there's a club because, yeah, a lot of the the I've noticed like actors, they love to party. And actually, that's the best parties I've done in my life. Is after we blocked with Greenpeace, another with 1000 people, we broke the general assembly meeting of this French royal company, total, like, literally blocked the building. And, like, the police couldn't take everyone, because we're too many, and so they couldn't have their general assembly meeting. And then everyone went to party together, and it was the most amazing party you you were basically, like, stuck with people you don't know, with chains and stuff for hours, and then they become your best friend. And so this, this is, like, big community events, yeah, exactly. And you know, dancing is the primal force of life and joy and connection, I think, right, I mean, and it's also, like, clinically shown to be the most effective antidepressant. And so we got to dance, yeah, yeah. And also, you can block banks by dancing. You bring a DJ in front of it, and then 1000s of people. And that's a form of activism. Yes, absolutely. It's so cool. We need more of that. I think in the US, I feel like it's more of a it's also that you it's like tactics like that, that show joy is easy to get the general public with you, because then they want to join you, because it seems fun. And so it's also changed the perspective of activism. So one of my friend in Germany, for example, when they want to block street, they don't just block street. They organize soccer games. And so you play soccer, and then people come and everyone starts blocking the street just because everyone loves to play soccer, and also it sends a message, like, let's take back our streets to play instead of using it for cars. And so this is, like, interesting, and it's might be more effective than just like, doing yourself to block it, right, right? I mean, I think that that's also a really beautiful reminder, is there's so many ways that we can get really creative and really think outside the box about what activism looks like. And I think we could use especially the progressive not, I know we're not talking politically, but like, specifically the politically progressive folks in the United States could definitely just get a little more unhinged, you know, just get a little more unfiltered, like we have to get a little bit we have to shake things up more. The activist I've met here and the organizers like I've never seen, so much energy, because the chance that you guys have is that you have such a rich history of organizing. And because people in the US don't expect the state to solve their problem or the government, people stand up and they they build communities, and they're like, we're going to do it ourselves. And this is a powerful tool for activism. In France, you have these images that people protest and do all these things all the time, but the main thing people demand is like the state to they wait for the state to solve the problem for themselves, which is great, because then it makes it that you have free healthcare, all this kind of stuff that which is cool, but at the same time, it doesn't Empower as much individual to demand, so you have to find the right balance. But the organizing things like the City Bank, like three months non stop blockade of the bank with like, 1000 people getting arrested and being on New York Times and all this thing is crazy cool, like, I've never seen this organizing power anywhere else. And. So yeah, like, I think it's going to be two years where people are going to resist in the US and how the new generation is going to show up. Will they do the same as the generation four years ago? Or not? It's going to be the big question. Is a big question. And I'm so glad that, you know, seating and Chile are collaborating together, like, the more overlaps we have the better. And so for folks to keep an eye out about that kind of just want to return back to you know you shared a lot of wonderful messages and advice. Actually, for people listening, just want to give you the opportunity if you have any more to share for people listening on how they can be involved or find their superpowers and what advice you have. It's one advice is to not lose hope in the next two years to find the cracks. So I gave you the example of the LNG. So even if Trump wants to double down in Texas, which is super conservatives, there's still ways to stop it. Even if Texas wants to do it, even if Trump wants to do it, you can still stop it. One other thing I would like to highlight is that a state like California, just by itself, is the fifth largest economy on the planet, one state. So for every huge bank in America, for every company, this place is super important. This place is also the place when there's wildfires, where Californians are aware that climate change is real. They can't insure their home anymore. There's they're really, really aware of the issue of climate change, and at the same time, they have the fifth largest economy of the planet on their own. And so there's a lot of change that could be made just from California. So if you live there, there's so much you can do to organize, to put pressure on the banks, the corporations, even within the Trump administration. And so that's something powerful to realize that. And then my main thing for everyone else who is not there is, yeah, just start somewhere like join the local groups, make new friends who care about climate, and then slowly, it's going to be an amazing journey. And also join all the webinars and programs that you guys have with ceiling sovereignty, because you've been at it for so, so long. And, yeah, huge fans. So thank you so much for inviting me. Thank you, Christian. Yeah, it's wonderful to have that balance. And it's all of it. You know, we need all of it. And so you're inspiring me to be more directly active. I think, you know, creating. I don't think you need inspiration. No, no, we're all we all inspire each other, and that's what, like, creates this biodiverse, symbiotic community of people, yeah, like, we need all of it. We need all the energy. We need me being more like sustained and, you know, coming from a place of building those systems. And then we need you, and everyone in Chile coming from, like, let's stop this carbon bomb, you know, and like going dancing, and like dancing to protest, like, it's all it's all really important. Our final question, which I ask everybody, is, that's, that's the final question. Oh, yeah. Anything else talk about? No, no. What is the final question? No? Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you would like to talk about? No, no. It's just a lot of thank yous, but Okay, the final question that I ask folks is, what are your superpowers? I would say being that the reason I think it's a superpower, is that before I had a kid, like, I knew climate change is bad for my island, things like that, but it still wasn't like a fire I was feeling in my body. And the moment I became a dad and I saw my kid, and then you see him growing up, and then you realize, like, it's gonna then you have, like, this kind of parent instinct of like, you want to protect your kid. And then when you know that this is a problem that's gonna affect your kid, it creates so much, like, drive and energy, it's it's insane. And then you're like, Okay, let's go stop this pipeline against this billion dollar company. And then, like, nothing's gonna stop me. And then you find other parents who are like, Yeah, let's do it. And so this creates, like, a huge, huge motivation that for me, helps me move mountains all the time. And so I think that's my main superpower, and the empathy and self awareness that comes with that, yes, you have those qualities. And then being a dad, yeah, you can you. I realized I felt more yeah for for people and what was happening around me, maybe as a woman, as man is like, I. Yeah, it's like something that, you know, you live your life like a first player view, you know, like in a video game, and then soon you have a kid, and it's like, whoop, you see from a bit more up, and it's their view. And that was a big change. Wow. Thank you so much. No, thank you, Madeleine, for all what you've been doing since you're 15 years old on climate nine. But nine, okay, no, yeah. Thank you so much for for this incredible conversation. What is your superpower? Oh, what is you know, it changes all the time, so I don't know. I mean, every day, I have a different answer. Right now, at this particular moment, I feel like I'm using my superpower of connection and listening. But I think, yeah, there's a lot. I mean, every day, it's different. My superpower, honestly, is always being curious about what my superpower is. Nice. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Thank you so much for listening everybody. I hope that you enjoyed that episode as much as I did, and I will say also, please share these episodes with your friends, with your family, with your coworkers, review them on Apple and Spotify if you've benefited or enjoyed or learned something from this episode, from other episodes, it would mean a lot to us if you did all that and always feel free to check out our website and we'll see you next time, thanks, everybody. You.