EP 27: Making Post-Growth Cool (Again) with Michael Mezzatesta

What does a world outside of endless, destructive economic growth look like — and how do we get there? How do we break through the virtual monopoly that right-leaning media has on America’s eyes and ears? 

In this episode, Michael Mezzatesta unpacks effective progressive storytelling tactics, post-growth economics, gives his take on tech "broligarchs,” and offers a hopeful vision for transforming our current economic paradigm. We delve into: 

• How storytellers can get creative to reach the audiences that need to hear them and shift cultural narratives 
• Challenging tech billionaires' detached visions of future human existence
• Degrowth and post-growth as alternative economic frameworks that prioritize community and sustainability
• Michael's concrete advice for listeners on finding their climate superpowers

Michael Mezzatesta is an online educator using social media to spread ideas for a better future. His fast-paced, informative videos on Instagram and TikTok present sustainability through the lenses of economics and finance. By explaining the systemic nature of social problems – from climate change to inequality – and advocating for genuine solutions, Michael encourages people to imagine how the future could be better.

Follow Michael!

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/MICHAEL__MEZZ/

Substack: https://substack.com/@michaelmezzatesta?utm_medium=ios

Website: https://michaelmezzatesta.com/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@michael_mezz 

Bookshop: https://bookshop.org/lists/books-for-a-better-future

Seeding Sovereignty's Socials

Instagram/TikTok/Twitter/YouTube: @seedingsovereignty

Website: www.seedingsovereignty.org

Madeleine's Socials

Instagram/TikTok: @madeleinemacgillivray

Website: www.madeleinemacgillivray.com

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Michael, welcome to succeed. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for being here. Happy to be here. Yeah, I've been really looking forward to talking to you, because I have had the urge to pick your brain on so many things for so long. I really appreciate the work that you do and how you reach people, and I'm one of those people, so pick my brain. Let's do it. Yes. Okay, so I'm just gonna like, as usual, I'm gonna start out just reading your bio for folks. Michael mettesta is an online educator using social media to spread ideas for a better future. His fast paced informative videos on Instagram and Tiktok present sustainability through the lenses of economics and finance by explaining the systemic nature of social problems, from climate change to inequality and advocating for genuine solutions. Michael encourages people to imagine how the future could be better. I like the word imagine, and I like the word genuine solutions. I think those are really not paradoxical whatsoever. No, yeah, no, yeah. I think, I think that it could really be pretty awesome if we pull pull this off. So yeah, trying to, trying to put that kind of utopian, optimistic spin on some of the messaging. But yeah, genuine solutions, meaning I try to stay away from, like, the the BS and kind of the green washy, like, you know, metal straws type stuff. I mean, I have nothing against metal straws, but that's not going to solve the climate crisis. Love a metal straw, yeah, right. And it's a yes, we love a metal straw, and it's not going to solve the problem. Talk about that kind of thing too much. Yeah, exactly. And I want to talk more about those genuine solutions. But first, I actually just want to, like, kind of, before we talk about all of the degrowths and the post growths, I want to bring the audience's attention to something that I read in your sub stack. You reposted a very striking, like visual diagram of the reach that certain far right kind of media personalities and outlets have that is so disproportionate, it just like gigantic compared to more progressive media. And I love this quote that you wrote, which is, quote, progressives have a media problem, and we need a media solution. For me, personally, it's less about Democrats versus Republicans, and more about building a positive vision for the USA that people can rally around. It's time to invest in progressive creators and storytellers and let them do their thing. End Quote, and I think I want to dive into this first because of how many people I know deeply agree with this, but are just a little bit like, Okay, but how to actually do the shift as a storyteller, and you share, obviously, really engaging and clear information, you're one of these people who is part of the shift. So can we unpack like, what your approach is as a storyteller and how others can kind of do their thing, as you're saying. And one of the things that I want to just put, like, as a sidebar, is the fact that I think that, you know, one of the things you've sort of reflected is like reaching more people. And one of the things is like showing people that you're lifting weights, and like, how to reach new like, you know, new audience, yeah. Like, the thirst traps are really important for this conversation, and not to be taken lightly and not to be, you know, kind of minimized. So tell people, tell, tell the world, yeah. Well, by by, by do your thing. I think that that actually means something different for every person. So I don't think that there's a cookie cutter way to do progressive media, but I think that something we can learn from some of these creators who are on the right is they're just presenting topics that are interesting and fun to talk about, and then they weave in politics. At some point, it's not like a politics show, right? Joe Rogan is not a politics show. He's not a politics guy. He's just a cool guy who likes wrestling and asks fun questions and like is entertaining to listen to, and then he brings in politics sometimes, right? So I think that's something that's important to learn from, is the way that the right has really taken like cultural topics, whether that's sports or wrestling or video games and and kind of woven in some politics. But the the reason they have such a big audience is just because they're talking about stuff that people care about. And I think, I think folks that are on the progressive side can can learn from that, because it can be a little bit too on the nose sometimes to, just like, listen to a politics podcast. I think that's a very small percentage of the population that wants that. And so, yeah, I was talking about this with some friends, and I'm like, you know, I should really start showing other parts of my personality, because if you look at my channel, I'm guilty of this. I just go economics, you know, climate, some of these topics that I think are so important, but I'm realizing that for in order to reach more people, I might need to show that like eight. I also like hiking, I also like weightlifting, I also have hobbies. And so I think, I think the left just needs more hobbies. Yeah, people on the creators on the left need more hobbies. But to go back to your question, I think that comment was also that, that thing I wrote was also about funding. It was also just about, yes, the access to money. And I think that's one of the most challenging things about being a creator, a progressive creator is like, where, where's the money gonna come from? How are you gonna make a living doing this? I think the right has more of a funded ecosystem for people who are like, they find you and they're like, Hey, here's here's a check. Keep doing what you're doing. And and in progressive media, that doesn't happen. All the money is going to nonprofits and white papers and op eds and the New York Times, and I think we're finally realizing that that's not reaching the right folks, not reaching the average American voter, if we're talking with the US lens. And so, yeah, I also think that we need to push institutions to fund progressive media in new ways. But when it comes to the creator and thinking about getting involved. I think it's just like, What is your angle? What? How can you show yourself in a relatable way? And obviously, like, use, use media strategy and work in formats that are going to reach people, which is something we can also go into. But I won't bore you with all of my like, media random ideas. I don't think it's boring. I think it's important to also be like, if we can get more specific, feel free to share one of the things also that I'm thinking about as you're talking is the fact that the system is so rigged because not just the sort of nature of a platform that is more progressive, traditionally being a little bit more narrow and pointed in the content, but like, the content itself is not, it's like more right wing folks are really talking about stuff that invokes so much fear. And a lot of it is also not based, in fact, a lot of it is is, you know, it like the nature of the content itself. It makes me feel anxious, because it feels like a rigged system. If you are sharing the content that you are sharing, which is, like, here's what's going on, here's a solution. It's just not going to exist in the algorithm in the same way. So like, yeah, sharing like thirst traps at the gym is, like, totally one very tangible way to counter that. But any other thoughts on that particular problem? Yeah, I mean, I think that there's fear on on the right, and I think that we can, especially on the climate side, we do tap into that fear of just like, oh my gosh, what's going to happen if we don't change this. But I would argue that what, what feeds the, the attractiveness of the right is not the fear, but sort of the the promise of of a better alternative, like unrigging the system to them typically means maybe going back to something that existed before, when maybe the government wasn't so big, or all of these corporations weren't so powerful. And I think that we can learn from that in terms of just trying to paint a picture of, like, what does this better world look like? And I like to say, like, if we do pull this off and actually transition to a better economic system, a more sustainable economy, like, there are so many benefits to that that we don't talk about. We're always just, like, stop this bad thing from happening, as opposed to, like, maybe we won't have to work as much, yeah, maybe the air will be cleaner. Maybe there will be more green spaces in our cities, more public transportation, you know, less micro plastics in our blood and our ball sacks. Maybe our ball sacks will be happier, you know, more just more healthy, exactly, yeah, and so, yeah, I don't know. I feel like we can, we can do some of those that like envisioning, but we often find ourselves just reacting to the bad things that are happening and saying, No, not that, right? And I think we need to try to move away from from like, getting in the way of things, and start painting a vision of, like, where are we going? What is that gonna feel like? It's gonna feel good. It's gonna feel awesome. I think that a lot of people's lives will be, will be quite a bit better and more enjoyable. Yeah, and other species too, not just people. Yeah. Side note I'm currently reading, and I just started Kate sopers alternative hedonism, is that it's a wonderful book. It's called post growth economics, like alternative hedonism or something, I need to read that. Yes, you do. Yeah. I mean, I admit I'm like, on page 30, but basically she's talking about the fact that that is an effective framing for this conversation. And it's like, totally the just like kind of progressive leaning media is sort of having a branding problem, and climate kind of has a branding problem. I think the frame, the words almost like degrowth and post growth evoke something that might not be as good as what's currently going on. And it's interesting for me to start to think about it from her perspective, which. It's actually an alternative form of hedonism to be like it's kind of a thought that I've had for a while, which is that we can tap into our intrinsic nature to be selfish and to be selfish more deeply, is actually to look out for everybody. It's like looking out for my needs, because that ends up benefiting everybody. Don't necessarily depend on other people? Yeah, because I depend on other people. So it's actually being very selfish in a good way, not to, like, twist that word. And so that's just kind of like a framing that I wonder, if you think about and talk about a lot, and like, where the discourse or actually before, sorry, I'm getting too excited, because I feel like we should talk those terms mean for the audience. Can we take a step back and define degrowth and post growth and all the growth that you talk about? Yeah, yeah. So, so I think of of post growth as the wider umbrella. It's imagining an economic system that doesn't depend on constant growth. And the reason a lot of these ideas came about, or the truth is these ideas have been around for a long time. A lot of it is pulling from indigenous wisdom that's 1000s of years old and likely a lot older than that. So some people do say, hey, this isn't new. And I'm like, Yeah, you're right. It's not new, but, but this framing is new because it's kind of being brought into the Western academic discourse for the first time in this way. And so post growth is kind of about, let's reimagine the economic system. And the way one could argue that, with the way the economy currently works, climate change is almost an obvious consequence, like growth means more consumption every year. More consumption means more waste, more pollution. And so if we just keep growing this thing, it's going to have consequences for the environment. And so that's what's happening. We're kind of getting so big that we're pushing against the ecological limits of the planet, and hence the plastic islands in the ocean, hence the CO two in the atmosphere, the biodiversity loss due to land use for agriculture and other things that we need to, like, harvest more materials and feed this economic beast that we've grown. So post growth is saying, hey, what if we like, step out of that framework and say, What could the economy look like in like a steady state, or in a in a world that's agnostic to whether it's growing or not, and that starts to shine a light on why is growth required in the current system? And it sort of starts to unpack those questions. One of the reasons is that corporations have to hit their quarterly profits every every quarter, and they need to keep going up if they want to keep, you know, investors interested. And so maybe that isn't the right way to run an economy, necessarily, also like the monetary system, this is kind of getting super wonky, but kind of requires growth in order for the the economy to stay afloat. Because money is being issued based on debt, and to repay that debt with interest, you need to create more wealth. And so there's all of these, like systemic sort of requirements for growth that are baked in and post growth economics is saying, hey, let's, let's think about an economy that doesn't work that way. What would, what would that look like, and what kind of rules would we need to govern that? Then just sidebar on that, or kind of like, you know, double click is degrowth, which is a little bit more of a indictment of the growth based system, and saying, like, actually, we shouldn't be necessarily just like growth agnostic. There are certain industries that need to get scaled down. Like, we can't just have fast fashion growing every year. We can't we can't have these huge oil companies requiring to grow every year, right? So what would it look like to actually plan a transition away from some of these industries and scale them down, and degrowth kind of unpack those questions as to, how would we do that? And it's really it's really meant people are like, yeah, degrowth isn't the best marketing term because it sounds like, you know, going backwards. And I think a lot of people in the degrowth movement would say that's the point. It's kind of like saying it's like, meant to meant to shake you when you hear it, as to like, this is something so different from the way we do things today. And it does unlock a lot of the conversation about how, how abundant and fulfilling could a life be in which we're not all kind of slaves to this constantly growing economic system, and so it does have some of those utopian things baked into it's not all like just against something. I think it's really for a more equitable, cooperative economy, right? Like more of those things that you started getting at before I realized that we should define those terms first is like more prosperity in all these areas of life, that, yes, we could have a better life. Imagine that. I mean, imagine that. And I think that, again, the word imagine is something that because of the current economic system, there's really no space for people to do. Do. And so I think, yeah, something I think about a lot is just like how difficult it is to carve in space to like, dream and literally envision what your life could be like outside of what it currently is. We don't really have time for that. We don't have to in the current system, no, and we, I think that all of these kind of economic theories are an invitation to slow down and to say, hey, what? What could life be like if we weren't always hustling? It's it's really a it's really a shift away from the kind of hustle culture mindset of, like, grind it out, achieve your goals by just doubling down and working harder. It's like, well, what's the point of working hard, isn't it? Just so that you can, you can have more time to yourself after so, like, what if we skip the part where you grind for like, 30 years and get sick, you know, and like and like, end up with, like, a bunch of physical ailments? It's, it's kind of like an invitation to a to a healthier, more more abundant, and I think more like, arguably ecological and natural lifestyle that we've really gotten away from ever since we kind of got onto this growth treadmill. Right? Totally. I want to also raise a kind of counter argument to degrowth and post growth that I feel like I think about a lot, and I've had conversations with folks who are aware of these concepts, but for example, own small businesses and who are the kind of realisticness of it all like when we it's so easy for us to talk about these things from our chairs, and it's so fun to talk about them, and you obviously do more than just talk about them, But from a granular perspective of how it actually happens in, you know, practice, yeah, for like a small business owner, to begin to try to engage in degrowth when they're trying to keep their company afloat, or, you know, they're not necessarily trying to, are we talking to those people? Is that the right question to ask? Are we not talking to those people? We're talking about the big corporate powers talking to everyone, talking to everyone. And yeah, let's talk about how small businesses can apply degrowth. I think that's actually a great question. It's not. It doesn't mean stop running your business, stop growing your business. Certainly the companies that that need to degrow more urgently are the big industries that are actively harming the planet and creating ecological destruction, like the ones we mentioned. But small businesses can take an ethos of degrowth as well. And that doesn't mean, yeah, changing the way that you grow your company, but I think it means changing the way that you think about running your company and the way it's organized and where you get capital and things like that. It's kind of more tactical like that. So for example, have you considered giving your employees equity in your business? Right? Right? Employee Ownership and more. Collective ownership is one of the core tenets of a post growth economy, because it means it's not just about growth. And I think this is a really important distinction. I think growth being such a key word to, like, the, you know, it's literally in the term, we always focus on growth, but it's really about, like, this extractive type of growth. I think that a lot of folks and that that are, you know, speaking about post growth, it's like, it's, it's more about who's the growth for, right? And who gets to enjoy it, and is it just the shareholders and the people sitting at the top, like the CEO, like, that's the problem. And so if you have a small business, and you have, you know, profit that can be shared with with your employees. And by the way, they might be like, way more bought in and way more interested in working for you if you do give them some ownership in your company. That's one thing to consider. Another is like, maybe don't take capital from companies that require you to hit really, aggressive targets for growth, who then are going to try to extract profit out of your company as well? Like, more venture capital models. So like, are there other ways to raise money that are more like slow capital? They call it, which is like more patient. They accept lower returns, and they're they're generally more sort of like socially oriented around the investments they make. And, yeah, like, what would it also look like to give back to your community in some way, right? Like, how do you how do you think about the growth of your company as a social good, as opposed to, like, this is just for you and your pocketbook, and, you know, paying the mortgage on your house, which, by the way, like totally hope that you can afford your mortgage. Yes, we can talk about whether we can talk about, like social housing and all of that, and whether everyone should need to take out a mortgage, but that's kind of a separate topic. The I think that really it's a shift towards growth for who, especially at the smaller business level, and. And if you can apply some of these community oriented values to your business, a whole new realm of ideas might open up and kind of depends on your community and depends on your business. But I think that you as a business owner will probably be more fulfilled if you feel like your company's success is improving. This is is helping your community flourish. And I think that's really like the shift that is that people are being invited to make here. Yeah, that is such a wonderful answer, because I have been genuinely thinking about the more specific kind of pathways for folks who aren't, you know, at billion dollar companies, for though, for the big corporations, what would you say for how we can voice our demand for them to start incorporating degrowth? Or is that, you know, like, how do we actually approach the bigger guys? Yeah, that's or is it a regulatory thing? Like, how much does policy play into this? This is, like, the biggest question you can ask, yeah, it's okay. Let me solve the global economy with this answer here. Buckle up. Like, it's more, just like, you know, yeah. Like, what does it take, yeah, for us to get to this point? Well, this is what's so interesting. And the reason that we need to talk about it at a at an economic and policy level too, is that a lot of CEOs feel trapped by the growth imperative as well, right? Like, there's a lot of really smart people running these companies who have ethics and who care about the world. I mean, not all of them, but there are some who are like, look, this is all really cool. Like, that's a great idea. Loved the book, whatever. But yeah, like, I need to hit these numbers for my like, next quarterly return, otherwise I'll lose my job. So to some extent it needs to be a broader, like, economy or system level conversation, but when you get into the how, it's really hard, because there's so much momentum carrying this thing forward, and so I do think policy has to play a big role. I do think that, you know, you need, like, really smart regulation of some of these industries. The issue there is that regulation can have unintended consequences. So it's a quagmire. It's really difficult, but different people are interested in different angles. So like, there's the policymakers, there's the business leaders, there's also, like, the spiritual leaders. I think that if, if every one of these fortune 500 CEOs, like, had a spiritual awakening in the hopefully in the next few years, that would also be huge, right? It's not like people need to get reconnected to their bodies in the land and realize like, oh, you know, I have more leverage than I thought to actually help bring a better future about. But it is tricky, and I do think that some industries are going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming into like, a post growth future, and others are going to actually lead the way. And I think we need to find those business leaders who are willing to lead the way and to make some of those riskier decisions and say, I'm going to change a structural thing about the way my company works, by implementing employee ownership plans, or by by Yeah, changing the way that the bottom line functions, so that there's some sort of social good that that we're that we're generating, and there are companies that are starting to do this, and so I think we need to do a better job of elevating those people and companies and making it cool to do that. So there's a there's that cultural piece as well, which I think is where social media can can help. Yes, totally. I think that that is one of our kind of prerogatives as folks who try to shift culture or storytelling these issues is like just making it sexy, making it cool. Sometimes that looks like just sharing that you went to the gym and lifted a lot of weight, and instead, you know, like, there is a secret, there is a way that we can tap into a little bit more of our kind of primal right? Just what, what pings our neurons from a primal level, yeah, yeah. And sharing also, what, what you're doing about your business, right? Like, there's, there's a viral video going around, if you've seen it, about Dr bronners and the way that they have a that the CO CEOs there have put a ceiling on. I think it's, yes, the, I think it's the the top paid executives of the company can only make seven times the lowest paid full time employees. Yeah, and like that just is a systemic, structural change that they made that is awesome. It's like it i The gap between the CEO and the entry level employee is so big at some many of these companies, usually 100 times, sometimes even more than 1000 times, the income, and so just, just doing that, and then talking about it is, like, so huge. And then I think it's the role of content creators in the media to, like, shine a light on those stories and be like, Look how cool this is. And and I think that can slowly cause dominoes to start to fall. Yeah, I don't mean to grill you on this, but I'm. So curious. Like, why are there not as many mainstream like Patagonia models or Dr Bronner's models? Why are those companies so obvious, and we know them because there are so few of them. Or am I in a bubble, and I don't know how many more are doing that? Like, Why has it not caught on at the is it? I mean, it's kind of an obvious answer, but I'm just like, if it's so cool, which it is? Is it a storytelling problem that people just don't think of it as cool? Yet, in this current cultural moment and political moment, I think it's, it's pretty new to happen at this, at the scale of a large corporation that is completing competing in a global market, so like a Patagonia creates a lot of waves because it is, it is new, and there's no companies that big that are really doing it. And so I do think that that's a piece of it. I think they, a lot of them would argue, oh, it's just uncompetitive to do these sorts of things. But if we see more companies make these shifts and keep doing great, then it sent it like it's kind of an emperor has no closed moment of like, actually, this is completely possible. And why aren't you doing it too? And so that social pressure, I think, is starting to grow. I think also, yeah, to your point, like, there was a article by Milton Friedman about, I forget the exact headline, but I think it was basically that the social responsibility of a corporation is to grow its profits. And that was the norm back in the in the kind of 70s, 80s, the Reagan era, this era of deregulation and sort of a shift into, like a very individualistic form of capitalism. And we're, we're seeing a new shift now, of a return to more of a collective framing. But like I said, it's kind of a matter of dominoes falling, and when are these big, big systemic shifts happening? I think we're, I think we're at the beginning of that turn, which is why it feels like there's these, these vignettes of examples. But I think that over the next few years, I really, I really believe that that it will become a lot more common. Do you believe that in the context of kind of a counter movement against what's currently going on in this political moment, with what I love the term tech broligarchs, because I'm thinking, I'm hearing you talk, and I'm thinking about the Tesla car salesman on the White House lawn. And I'm wondering what you're thinking about, just this current moment, with all of those concentrated powers, in the context of what you're talking about, which I also believe in, in the future, can we talk about the tech Burleigh? So I think that what these people represent is actually a completely different vision for the future than what most of the world wants. I think that they're completely detached from what people actually want. And what I think they're envisioning is a world where we they are leading the vanguard of humanity into a colonization of space, Mars. Mars. Mars is just the beginning, and they are cyborgs at that point, because they've neuralink themselves, and they're plugged into AI, and they have all of these like anti aging technologies. They can live as long as possible. And I think that they see themselves as the leaders of a new version of the human race that's going to colonize other planets and harness the power of computers and put them into their heads and optimize everything and make everything more efficient. And they think that's super cool. That's cool. No, that's not cool. No, I don't I think their heads are so far up their own asses that they think they're like, like, really doing something that that the population wants, but I think that the rest of us are like, no, actually, Earth's pretty good. We're pretty good with Earth. Let's stop destroying it. And can you please maybe, like, send yourself to Mars and not come back, right? And if you want to neuralink yourself up there, go for it. Go ahead. That's your place to do it. We're good over here. We're cool with that. Yeah, go ahead, yeah. Just like, don't you don't have to come back. Yeah, you actually can. You can stay there. Just run your run your cyborg operation on Mars. We don't want to hear from you. If you send us the occasional update, fine, we'll read it. But, but the I really do think that they see this as, like, the the future that they that, that people want. I think it's because they read a couple sci fi novels when they were kids and decided, like, they're gonna be like the Luke Skywalker kind of figure it's, it's super narcissistic. It's super detached from, from what, what normal people actually want, which is like, a good life, a livable planet, some free time, time with their family, yeah, some parks to hang out in and like to not have to slave away just to afford a studio apartment. So I think that ultimately, it's a huge. Huge, huge, huge difference in values and vision for the future. And I think that what they've become is completely detached from any sense of, like, their Corporal nature as a as a human body, that's that's part of a system that's been here for a long time. They have no interest in that. And so I think that what we can do is sort of shine a light on the on the importance of like, being in your body, being connected to land, being connected to nature, and show how much healthier and happier we can be than than they are. Because I don't get the sense that these people, whether it's Elon Musk or Marc Andreessen or whoever you want to point to, I don't think they, they look very healthy or happy. They they look pretty unhealthy. I don't really want to be them at all. I agree. So I don't mean that's like, body shame them, but I mean, like, maybe a little bit of that would help. Maybe a little bit of that would help point the body shaming towards the billionaires who are, like, completely detached from from the rest of society, and and, and I think, shine a light on how kind of, kind of pathetic their vision is, and how much the rest of us don't want it, because only then I think, can we can? Can we have that Emperor has no closing moment when we're like, Wait, these guys are leading us in direction we don't want to go right? What else is there? Yeah. And yeah, I know that I didn't get to the Tesla sales on the White House lawn thing. No, you Yeah. I think that he represents a vision that a lot of these burlagarchs have, of them as leaders of society, when really what we see them is as these almost parasitic individuals who are just pulling wealth out of society, pulling profit, pulling wealth up towards the top, and then using it for nothing that people actually want. We used to have really rich people like building libraries and monuments and contributing to public infrastructure, right? And I would be more okay with super rich people if they were actually creating some sort of social good. But in this case, they're not. They think that social good is is this future sci fi plan, like, you know, plan that they have, and it's, it's not at all what the people want, it's not what the people want. And it's also in such opposition to, I think, a lot of the voter base that voted for Trump in this election, and it's so fascinating to me to have economy of like Trump being the puppet of Elon Musk, because and Maurice Mitchell was a fantastic recent guest on this podcast. It's great, yeah, of Working Families Party, and sort of framed it in a way that was like, Look, you know, Elon Musk has a lot of companies that are regulated by the government. He found an opportunity to, you know, have more power in regards to how his companies are regulated. And I think your take on the vision that the braligarchs have for themselves as the folks who are going to lead us into this new way that we're half cyborg, and it's going to be great on Mars. Is weirdly refreshing, because it's also breaks down the seriousness of all of this. I think it has to be taken seriously, and we have to also highlight how silly it is. You know, yes, we're being forced to take it seriously, but it's not serious. It shouldn't be serious. Unfortunately, they have so much capital and so much power that we're all being forced to take this vision very seriously. And I think we all need to just notice that it's not at all what we actually want to do. I don't know you. I don't want to go to Mars. It's going to be less fun than Earth. I think Earth's going to be the place to be. You can go to Mars. You can literally go to Mars. You just go to the desert in California, beautiful desert. Utah, basically Mars. Yeah, yeah. And getting back to what you said about the Trump base and whether they actually want it, I don't think that they want it all. And I think it's creating this very interesting and important division in the quote, unquote, Maga movement between the the tech berlegard type, people who see themselves as these, like sci fi visionaries, leaders of the of the free world on Mars, or not so free, yeah, their world, and they have, like the toiling masses underneath them. Aren't cyborgs and the the sort of middle America populist Maga movement of folks who are, you know, working class who who just want a president who's going to stand up for them. And I think that those people are starting to get very upset about Doge and the cuts that are being that are happening to the government, because it's starting to affect them and their families, and the veterans getting fired, the park rangers getting fired, and they're starting to see, wait, this isn't helping me at all. This is just kind of stroking the ego of this man who thinks he's gonna, like, get rid of the government and replace it with some tech company he's probably working on. Yeah, and so I think, I think we need to remember that this vision that the PROLOG arcs have. Of is so so so unpopular among the general American public. And I think beating that drum is super important, as opposed to just reacting to say, No, this is bad. It's like, No, this is this is actually not at all helpful for the people who voted for Donald Trump. And I think a lot of those people are actually folks who who can be a part of this vision for a better future that that you and I share, which is something that is actually good for working people, actually good for, you know, the cleanliness of the air and the water and the and the earth, the land that we're sharing, and that actually makes things more affordable. So that that, I think gap is going to get wider and wider until, I hope Trump kind of casts aside the berlegarx. That's not going to solve all of our problems, but it will, I think, I think, be an important turning point in hopefully Trump's second term. Interesting, right? I'm just replaying in my brain. It's all computer. Everything's computer. That was hilarious, that was so endearing, I was like, oh, right, he's 80. This is when he gets in a Tesla, right? Everything is computer. Everything I see, I love that. I love that too. And like, you know, I wouldn't put it past Joe Biden to have said the same thing, no. So, you know, but it just happens to be, yeah, I think about that a lot. Oh, so, I mean, I kind of want to do, like, a slightly random pivot, okay, goal, unless you have thought other thoughts on what we're well, we have, we could talk about it for forever. Let's shift gears. But I just want to know, I won't like to focus on you. Okay, that's okay. Wow, yeah, I want to talk about your story a little bit. Will you like share how you got to this place, and just think illustrating to your path is really helpful for folks listening and for folks who just understand what a path looks like, Yeah, happy to I think that my path is a good example of someone who takes a bit of a winding road to get to this point, because I did study economics, and when I graduated from Stanford, I actually worked at a consulting company. I did not have a vision for my career as a anyone with sort of, like a social impact focus. I wanted that, but I had no idea how to make it happen. And I had no idea how to make it happen right out of college. So I ended up leaving that and working in a few digital media companies I was doing, like content marketing and also just just marketing in the private sector. So that was when I learned about messaging and how to use social media to grow audiences, but I had never really applied those skills to what I felt were like the most important issues. I was just sort of, hey, you know, I just want to I want to succeed. I want to make some money and kind of just do the career thing, yeah, not try to shake, rock the boat too much. But it wasn't until, like, my late 20s, that I was like, Okay, I had a bit of, like, a meaning crisis, or like, you could call a quarter life crisis, where I was like, I just feel disconnected from the issues that really matter. And I, at that point, I learned about post growth and degrowth and all of these ideas that I'm so passionate about now. And I had a moment where I was like, should I go to grad school and study these things and become an expert and an academic? Or should I, like, build on the skill set that I already have to and see what I can do? I don't know what I didn't know what that'll look what that would look like, but it basically meant taking like this, the marketing skills and the communication skills from the private sector, and then kind of applying them into the ideas that I care most about, which were climate change and economic reform and like progressive politics and things like that. And so yeah, it was a very winding road that that I was kind of a late bloomer, you could say in terms of when I got to these, this type of work. But in a way, it has made all the difference, because it it meant that I had a skill set that I was able to apply to the movement once I arrived at the movement, right? And so I think that that is that's completely okay to, like, build some skills outside of the movement and in the nonprofits, in the public sector, in the private sector, wherever you can find a way to make money and support yourself, and then maybe, you know, find a way to take a leap into this type of work when the time is right. And for me, that that happened, like, close to when I turned 30 and and then, yeah, I kind of, I kind of was, like, ready to hit the ground running at that point, because I knew how to use social media. I I knew how to how to think about content strategy and things like that, and so I didn't have to, just like, completely figure it out from from square one, I sort of had a bit of loaded dice to run with in terms of, you know, getting into the media game. And I think that, you know. Your example is one of many where, you know, you say winding road, and I feel like everybody's path is kind of a winding road, in a way, totally and, and it's wonderful that, you know, another thing that you're highlighting is, just like everybody has a very unique skill set. Everybody has that level of, you know, specialization to some degree, or to any degree, that they are at least passionate about, and maybe there's overlap with what you're also good at and what you have experience in and like, what I'm also hearing from you is a level of curiosity, which I think is a critical ingredient in this whole formula as well, is just being curious about, like, what would happen if I didn't go to grad school but I just started, or what would it look like to kind of pivot? Because that's another thing, is that a lot of folks are in your in your were in, where you were, you know, which is like, oh, okay, I am doing something professionally that is not necessarily aligning perfectly with what I think my highest expression of my like self or my contribution to the world could be, but not needing to do like a hard pivot, or go to grad school or all that stuff, but slowly incorporate, yeah, values, exactly. It was more like taking baby steps. So instead of immediately quitting my job and shifting everything, I started to freelance as a, as a freelance marketer, and then kind of made that. Made time for me to start making videos and to start taking classes on this stuff and to join online communities and things like that. So it was really a slow transition, until it was like three years in that I went full time as like a, as a media content creator talking about these issues. And so it was a slow, slow transition. But I think sometimes we really want it to be super fast, and we can, we can steer ourselves into into a point of almost like desperation, where we don't know how to make ends meet if we, if we try to go too fast. So I'm not saying don't take the leap. Some people I think should take the leap. I'm just not that kind of person. I needed to, I needed to work my way to that leap. Yes, you know, stick my toe in before I took the jump into the deep end. And that's just, that's just the way I am. Yeah, but now I'm happy to be at a point where I'm able to fully focus on these topics and try to make as much of a impact as I can. Yeah, I love that. Can we extrapolate a couple more tangible things for people who are listening, of course, my thought was to ask you to share, like a five minute action item and like a longer term action item in terms of just the conversation around slowly moving the needle towards a post growth economy, yeah, what can I do if I pick up the phone? What can I, you know, like, what can I do tangibly, and then also, yeah, what's my longer term way that I can contribute in small and slow and steady ways? There's, there's many ways in and so I think one of the best things you can do is just go out into nature and just spend some time there, maybe even by yourself. Just be safe. Obviously, I have male privilege to say, I just go out into nature by yourself. Bring pepper spray, and also maybe bring a friend, definitely, or and like, don't, don't go in a bear country. And if you can even access nature. But yes, exactly. But if you can, yes, that that was, like, very essential, because that one thing I didn't mention is that I took some time to just go on a lot of hikes by myself during this period. And I was like, Oh, this is why I'm kind of unhappy. And solitude in nature can be, can be very clarifying. If you can, if you can find a way. I learned to meditate during that time. I think, like these, these spiritual practices that encourage us to slow down and to actually be in our bodies open up doorways into like practical actions we can take. And so for some people, that's yoga. For some people, that's breath work. So I think there's a lot of things that like seem tangential or seem irrelevant that are actually super, super relevant. I think to to making some of these shifts in terms of your work, because when you get more into your body, and you slow down, I think it changes the way that you perceive the world, that you exist in the world. Obviously, there's books, right? There's incredible books about this stuff. I mean, I don't know where to begin with the book Rex, but I think for me, less is more. By Jason Hickel was an incredible introduction to degrowth donut economics. By Kate Raworth was an incredible introduction to, sort of to donut economics, and also, kind of post growth thinking, braiding sweetgrass by Robin wall Kimmerer was sort of like the spiritual angle that I really needed on that. So those all helped me out. I think also, like, very tangibly, don't do it alone. Find community in person or online. There are people organizing in your community, doing important work, whether that's mutual aid or it's political organizing, or it's, you know, some form of ecological restoration or guerrilla gardening, or, like, you know, composting groups, right? Like there's all sorts of stuff. Try just getting into a community and doing some of the stuff with your hands. I think that really helps. And for me, it was during the middle of the pandemic, so I was actually joining these spaces digitally. I joined a few online classes, became a member of certain instant like the post Growth Institute is really cool. They had, they had some online courses during the pandemic. And so I think, like, those are all. That's my laundry list of things you could do in the immediate term. Yeah, I love that. And then yeah, the longer term, one is harder, but I just would say, don't I think the lesson from me was you don't need to completely reinvent yourself immediately. Just think, what do I know now? And how could I use those skills to work towards towards a better future? And that will just be the next step on a pathway that you actually don't have any idea what's on that path. Don't try and see five years out, just see, like five days out. What can I do right now to apply what I know to the things that I care about and I think the path will just reveal itself. I totally agree with you. Thank you for sharing that it's important to come back to the concept of just being in your body. And I wish that Elon Musk had heard what you just shared. Send this to Elon. Send this to Elon. Elon, if you're watching go touch grass, basically tell you chill out. Just chill out a little bit. Yeah. I think it's things that a lot of people are kind of like, Yeah, I know, you know, I know, right, but it's, it's for a reason, I would say, just one more book I want to plug really briefly, because it's really important in this current moment. Yeah, is hope in the dark by Rebecca Solnit. She wrote it during the the opening of the Iraq War, and sort of about the progressive movement and how it felt like a really terrible moment, really terrible time, the election didn't go their way, and then basically the bombs kept falling. And it's a really, really powerful reminder of the fact that it is not a straight line towards a better world. It is a winding road, and there are a lot of ups and downs, and we need to not just push for the UPS, but also remember history and remember how far we've come, and the movements that we're actually part of that we might not even know that we're a part of, and the ancestors that have been working towards this for generations and just really, really grounding book on how to stay hopeful, which does not mean optimistic necessarily. It doesn't mean that you you are, like, really sure everything's gonna work out, but action requires having some belief that the action is gonna be important, and so hope is really essential for that. Yeah, so I think that that that book is one that I have returned to in the last few weeks, last few months, and is like hitting harder than it ever has for me. It's really beautiful. Wow, yeah, it's in such a contrast to what I have felt has been in the last couple months, kind of like toddlers throwing a tantrum and throwing spaghetti sauce and everything at the wall and just creating chaos. And what I think we're trying to do is understand the fact that this is our lives and and this deep shift that we are currently trying to build take a lot of time, because that's just how it works on this planet. Things just take time. Things that sustain takes time. That's how I think about it a little bit. So that's really helpful, and it's important to be ready for those moments of high elasticity when everything changes quickly. Yes. So this, this idea that, like we can kind of prepare ourselves, internally and within our communities, for maybe a crisis, or for maybe a moment when things start to break, but we're actually kind of ready, because we've been thinking about it, we've been working on it, we've been reading about it, we've been talking about it, we've been living it. And I think that if we are simply doing the work in the background, eventually it's all going to pay off. Whether it happens, it's not going to happen exactly the way we want it. To a really powerful example of this just happened in Los Angeles, my hometown, which which burned in the fires, the Palisades fire and the Eden fire in Altadena. But what was so beautiful about that for me is that, you know, people, people think, oh my gosh, we need to prepare for these crises by like buying guns and like hoarding food and toilet paper. Super and we have billionaires building bunkers because they think they're gonna need to, like, protect themselves from, like, armed mobs. But what happened in the fires? There was no violence between community members. There was simply an an A pouring out of support for people who needed help. There was incredible mutual aid operations set up, like on the fly, giving people food, clothing, electronics, like everything they could possibly need to get back on their feet. And that all popped up almost immediately. And it gave me such faith that, like when these quote, unquote crises come, and that was definitely a crisis, right, that we're all gonna actually help each other out. And it was the folks who have been involved in mutual aid in the past who, like, really were leaders in that situation. But you don't need to be a mutual aid leader to participate. I'm not. I'm not a leader in that space. But I showed up and I, like, unpacked boxes, and I handed, handed things to people in the caravan of cars driving by, and I helped, like, sweep up debris and things like that, right? Like it. You don't need to be the visionary. There are actually people doing the work already who we can learn from and who can step into leadership roles when the crisis comes. And so don't this. This idea that we all need like a bunker to survive the coming future is just not true at all. Those people are going to be so lonely and so out of touch, and they're going to realize, like, they spent $100 million on this bunker for no reason, because actually, like, people are out there, helping each other, feeding each other, housing each other, and it's going to be really beautiful. Ideally, we avoid as much of the of the negative consequences as possible by, like, building a more sustainable society and economy as quickly as we can. But I don't think that emergency is an opportunity for violence. I think it's an opportunity for community. And that's what we saw in LA, really cool. Know your neighbors, yeah? Know your neighbors, go talk to your neighbor. Actually, that is the most important thing you could do right now. Probably, yes. Books, yes, hikes, yeah. Talk to your neighbors. Talk to your neighbors. You don't have to be besties. You don't have to be like, you know, like this, but just have their phone numbers. Know, their names, go, go, literally, not just someone next door and next door, but really your neighbors. Yeah, just, just Yeah. Get to know them. Get the exactly, get their numbers, maybe share like eggs every once in a while, yeah, yeah. In this economy, yeah. Everyone needs eggs. Everyone needs an egg plug. Thank you, Michael, I have like, the most rapid fire thing ever, which is, what are your climate superpowers, synthesizing complex ideas and translating them into digestible sound bites for people to understand quickly. I love that. Thank you. No problem. Thank you. Michael, yeah, no problem. So happy to have talked to you. This was really fun. Thanks for having me. Thank you.