Cloud of Witnesses Radio
Audio drama retellings of the stories of the Christian Saints, Panel Discussions, Cast Commentary, Reaction Videos, Screwtape Returns, and more!
Cloud of Witnesses Radio
First Encounter With Orthodoxy: Christianity Meets Hardcore Culture | Life Transformed Through Death
From Megachurch Disillusionment To Hope.
Josiah the inquirer sits down with Cloud of Witnesses, Mario Andrew and Jeremy Jeremiah.
A skull on a thumbnail, bells in the background, and a monk’s voice quoting Saint Isaac changed everything. Josiah didn’t set out to find ancient Christianity; he just needed something more honest than a forced smile and a quick fix. What he discovered was not an edgy aesthetic for its own sake, but a fearless way of naming reality: remember death, confront the passions, and be made new in Christ.
We trace the unlikely path from hardcore shows to holy tradition, exploring why Orthodoxy can feel “metal” without the nihilism. The conversation dives into Saint Paul’s call to be a living sacrifice, Saint Isaac’s searing inventory of the passions, and the strange relief that comes from a church that looks you in the eye and tells you the truth. Icons and martyrdom aren’t there to shock; they give shape to hope, showing lives that died to the world so that love could live. Along the way we talk Kat Von D, Holy Name, and the kind of inclusivity that rescues, not indulges—come as you are, but don’t expect to stay there.
• first contact with Orthodoxy through a stark video
• megachurch cynicism versus honest talk about death
• Saint Isaac the Syrian on the passions
• Scripture’s call to die to self
• icons, skulls, and martyrdom as truthful symbols
• baptizing subculture without baptizing sin
• real inclusivity as rescue and transformation
• providential friendships and cigar night community
• practical next steps toward catechesis
• lighthearted barber stories to close
What ultimately makes the search real is community: providential friendships, a cigar night, and a Clouded Witnesses feature that turned curiosity into courage. We share practical insights on taking first steps toward Orthodoxy, why asceticism answers modern anxiety, and how subculture can be baptized without baptizing sin. And yes, we close with a few unforgettable barber tales, because joy and humility are part of the medicine.
If you’re hungry for a faith that can hold sorrow and still make it sing, press play, share this with a friend, and tell us the moment that hit you hardest. Subscribe for more journeys, leave a review to help others find the show, and drop your questions—we’re listening.
Questions about Orthodoxy? Please check out our friends at Ghost of Byzantium Discord server: https://discord.gg/JDJDQw6tdh
Please prayerfully consider supporting Cloud of Witnesses Radio: https://www.patreon.com/c/CloudofWitnesses
Find Cloud of Witnesses Radio on Instagram, X.com, Facebook, and TikTok.
Please leave a comment with your thoughts!
Sort of the video that really um that introduced me to orthodoxy and kind of kicked off this whole journey. So cool, yeah, let's do it. You say thank you, and I was like, and he started talking, I was like, I've heard him before. And then I was like, I think that's the guy that does videos where he like looks at the camera and he's like that was his last week. So that was his last weekend at the Protestant Church. They were discerning Orthodoxy and then they went, mmm, I didn't know this.
SPEAKER_03:They quoted Saint Isaac the Syrian. You know how different Saint Isaac's life was to your ours in this room right now? And yet his orthodoxy is the same orthodoxy that we are able to partake in every day.
SPEAKER_02:He was giving a class, so people were watching him butcher my hair like live. Like so I remember he's behind me, he's doing my haircut. Yeah, so I'm gonna you know, I take his hair and cut and then I do this.
SPEAKER_03:We are the Carpathia, which is the boat that saved the people off the sinking Titanic into the world, and we will accept anyone who is willing to submit themselves to love that music.
SPEAKER_02:To think about someone like Capon D. Can you picture any other denomination other than Orthodoxy? I can't.
SPEAKER_03:Welcome to Clouded Witnesses. My name is Jeremy Jeremiah. We're here with Mario over on The Keys. We've got a great episode for you. Josiah, our special guest. Josiah, we're really, really excited to have you here. Um you are on your journey, on your way to orthodoxy, and maybe you're gonna tell us about that tonight.
SPEAKER_02:Sort of the video that really um that introduced me to orthodoxy and kind of kicked off this whole journey. So cool. Yeah. Let's do it.
SPEAKER_03:Love that music.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. That initially caught, I was like, what is this? So what is this? Let's pause it right there, Mario.
SPEAKER_03:What is this?
SPEAKER_02:Right. So I I see a thumbnail, it says death to the world, which is like that sounds like a death metal record or something like that, right? And it had the reliquary with all of the, you know, um, the bones and stuff. But you didn't know it was a reliquary. But at the time, no, I had no idea. I didn't even know. I probably heard the word orthodox in terms of G.K. Chesterton's book Orthodoxy. Yes. Not Eastern Orthodox, you know, right? So Yep.
SPEAKER_03:I remember those days when I heard Orthodox, I used to think of uh Judaism, right? Jewish Orthodox Jews.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03:They were Orthodox Jews, or you're absolutely right.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. GK Chesterton, right, his book Orthodoxy. I read in uh you know youth group or whatever that, you know. Yes. So but so I click on this video, right? Yeah. And uh the the opening thing is, you know, kind of a like a like a death metal sort of drum sort of section. And I my interest is completely peaked because that's the background I come from, you know, hardcore and yeah, punk music. So yeah, to me, I'm like, this is this is cool. Okay, yeah, set the scene though. Sure. Set the scene.
SPEAKER_03:I'm sitting in yeah, yeah. Where were you in life at that time in terms of your faith?
SPEAKER_02:Like what tell us about the Josiah that came across this video. Sure, yeah. Lifelong sort of non-denominational. I wouldn't I I was a Protestant, but I wouldn't even I I probably wouldn't would say the I probably didn't even know I was a Protestant, right? Well, yeah. I just was I was going to a big non-denominational church. You were a Christian? I was a Christian, yeah. Um I was married, newly married, and um really kind of struggling with kind of feeling cynical at the church I was going to. Sort of the just the attitude of the church and the more so just where I was at personally. Yeah, it was really not lining up with the you know, going to a big mega church and you know, everything's kind of sort of at your convenience, catered to you. And walking into that space, you know, sometimes you know, worship is like, you know, get on your hands and c let's clap your hands and worship God, you know. Right. Um, I was in a really dark time in my life where that attitude was not really matching up with, you know, where I was at. And so yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And and you mentioned how you were you're kind of part of the hardcore scene. Right, right. Did you feel like you felt fit into your church? I'm at church. Not at all.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Um, you grew up in youth group, and um, if you weren't kind of the same sort of personality type as the youth group leader or the pastor, you weren't really included in that core group of people. So I really wanted to be because this is my church, I love Jesus. Yeah, but on the like who I was as a person, sorry, my personality, my interests was not line up at all. And so it didn't feel like that was congruent. And then you came across this video, and then I came across this video. I love the contrasting. He's holding his hands up and it's striking. And I'm like, okay, I know this is a Christian, and now I'm like, okay, this is some sort of Christian video, I think. And this does not line up with what I'm seeing on Sunday. What it what is, I mean, this is it's a great, it's it's the the YouTube channel Harmony did a great job at this. It could sort of affect, you know, piquing my interest. Yes. Because yes, this is like a this is maybe like a hardcore album, you know? The priest kind of the police shooting, you know, the guns at him. I mean, it's it's it it really piqued my interest. So as the video continues, it uh yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Pause it there, Mario. What does that say? You will soon become become as I am. What I what I love about this and what always drew me is to death to the world as well, is that you know, it seems like this this fixation on death, right, but it's a fixation on our mortality. Right. It's reminding us, in other words, it's true. Yes, it's truth, yes, and that is so counter-culture. We live in a society where we don't really talk about death. And if you're sick and old, yeah, let's keep you off to the side. Exactly. Our cemeteries, you know, let's tuck them away somewhere. Right. Um you know, and this is putting death right in your face. Right. But it's not talk to us about that, Josiah. It's not glorifying death as you would see in some, you know, cultic death metal.
SPEAKER_02:Right. Or like even so it's similar imagery. So right, right, um, you see skulls, you don't think that's synonymous with Christianity. Right. Um, but in orthodoxy, it it is in a sense, but it's a different sort of sense. Yeah. So um looking at it now, I understand what um Death of the World, the magazine, and this video now was trying to accomplish. But as I saw it as a Protestant for the first time, I was like, this looks just like you know, the hardcore records I listened to are sort of the sort of the same kind of attitude, you know, the the the visuals of the skull with the red let and what does it say? You you'll become soon as I am. That that's hardcore, that's sick, dude. Like, what is that? That's cool. Like uh, you know, like whatever that is, I want to learn more. You know, yeah, what does that mean? Yeah. And you know, looking back, I I can understand what it means. We're talking about you're just facing your mortality, it's right there. Look at it. Right. You will soon become as I am. Exactly. That's it. Right.
SPEAKER_03:Ashes to ashes, death to death. Right. Life is but a vapor, right, a vapor and a flicker. At this time, right, had you ever even heard about orthodoxy? Did you know what orthodoxy was? No. Wow. Maybe um, no, I know.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, yeah, no. That's it. This is this is now I'm worrying about it. Amazing.
SPEAKER_00:What do we mean by death to the world? What do we mean? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And now if you pause it here, this is probably a good time to pause. Yeah. Because, okay, now it's gonna explain it. What do we mean by death to the world? Okay. Uh-huh. And then we get something I've never seen before either. Okay, there's bells, and now there's a priest. Now I see a uh uh a monk or a priest, whatever this is. Priest monk or priest monk, yeah. Um, and so now my I'm like, is it a Catholic thing? Like, what is, but it's I don't think so because my you know, my grandma's Catholic, and it's not like that. Yeah, right. It's like I don't think she'd like it.
SPEAKER_03:Your grandma was maybe was more subversive than you thought. Yeah. I love that that bell that because I think you know of even Hemingway for whom the bell tolls. Right.
SPEAKER_02:Just the imagery of you know the black cast and all the the bells and uh and the previous stuff before continually piquing my interest. What is this? Yeah, and so he's gonna explain now what what he means by death of the world, and he's gonna quote um Saint Isaac the Syrian. Oh, excellent. Yeah, so we'll yeah, we'll see that. But this is kind of a long he's gonna just play, he's just gonna do this, just gonna show this. But see, but that right that image there. Had you seen anything like that? No. Um I'd never seen an Orthodox icon before. Maybe I had, but never like, you know, this is what you know. Right. And so it just continu I remember being watching this and be I I think it was like after dinner, my wife made dinner. I really remember this night pretty vividly because I remember it deeply impacting me. And here's proof of it, because now I'm here on a Ronald's journey. But I remember watching it and being like, never seeing what is this? Like it's hard to even put words to right now because I'm like seeing the the iconography, seeing the the the attitude, the it's a whole different perspective on what I was experiencing in the Christian circles I was in. Right. And so at the time I was struggling so much, I was like grasping for for something different. And I think if I had not found orthodoxy, I think I would have probably stumbled off into, you know, maybe disbelief. Who knows? Wow. So I'm very grateful for this video and thankful to the to Christ that you know working through this video. Amen. Yeah, you know, like in this in in the circles of like hardcore and punk music, there's always obviously been the outliers of the Christians doing those things, but um they maybe didn't make the best, like that wasn't what I was interested. I was, you know, I really liked, you know, the real stuff. The real stuff, Lord have mercy. I hear you. But um in those circles, a lot of the music, a lot of the lyrics, a lot of the attitudes is like, yo, this world is is messed up. Yeah, it's not good. Right. My life sucks, my childhood was horrible, so I'm gonna write this angry music that lets me get it out. 100%. And everyone can come together at these shows and sort of let their anger out. You know, if you've seen the videos of like Mosh Pitts and stuff, you know. Um, and so I was also a Christian at the time, so I was kind of dealing with these two kind of disposing thoughts. How do these fit together? How do these fit together? And obviously, my Christian worldview is more important than this worldview, but that still influenced me because I knew, you know, in some way down deep down that these two things, there was some truth there, and there's a kernel of truth of like the world is not good. I mean, yeah, I I know that yeah, Christ came to save the world, so there's some discontinuity there. But when I would went go to church, it didn't feel that way. It felt like everything's good, yeah. Like, let me tell you a good um, you know, talk about scripture. Here's how you apply it to your life. You can go home happy and come back next week. Right. But my life was not like that. I was in a turmoil in my in my mind, dealing with mental health, dealing with substance abuse, dealing with the passions, yeah. Which they'll talk about. And I just didn't have I didn't know about it. I didn't know what the passions were, I didn't know what the world was in this sense. Right, right, right. And so in that state, seeing this video, it was like, you know, it was it was a it was crazy to hear. Bro, it's metal. Yeah, it is metal, it's dude.
SPEAKER_03:Orthodoxy is metal.
SPEAKER_02:It is, yeah. That's the thing. Orthodoxy is metal. It's the hardest thing, like, you know, in you talk in hardcore, like, what's the hardest thing? Like, what's the you know, who's the hardest band? Yeah, this band's hard because you know, the singer went to prison. Like, yeah, or or that like you know, you look at monasticism, you look at all the aspects of it. That's real. That's like that's what's real, dude. And I think so, you know, that's it.
SPEAKER_03:I gotta give St. Anthony the Great. Exactly. That's metal. Yeah, yeah, right. The the living out on your own in a in a cave, the spiritual battles that almost became physical with a demons, yeah. But remembering the lives of these people who have given their life for Christ, they've dedicated their life to Christ. You know, we we won't get into it now, but if there's a Protestant listening to this, the death of Charlie Kirk is a thing you can point to, maybe as a Protestant, where you were like, Man, I liked Charlie Kirk, I respected him, right? He was a faithful man and he died for his faith. And boy, oh boy, I'm right, I'm pro-Charlie Kirk. It's that same kernel of understanding, is what we understand and why we we revere the saints. Yeah. Because we can respect, we can look up to someone who's sacrificed and maybe even been a martyr for their faith.
SPEAKER_00:When we wish to call them passions by a common name, we call them the world. But when we wish to distinguish them by their special names, we call them passions. The passions are the following desire for possessions, bodily pleasure from which comes sexual passion, love of honor, which gives rise to envy, lust for power, arrogance, and pride of position, the craving to adorn oneself with luxurious clothes and vain ornaments, the itch for human glory, which is the source of rancor and resentment, physical fear. Where these passions cease to be active, there the world is dead.
SPEAKER_03:Alright, look at that person.
SPEAKER_02:So the interest, the the beginning that piques my interest. Yes, what is this? Right. Not thinking I'm gonna get some profound spiritual lesson that will meet me exactly where I'm at. Right. Just like this is sick. Yeah, this is cool. To then hearing that and being like, literally, I think I watched that and that first thing probably like four or five times. It's like, how come no one's ever told me that? Exactly. Right to my thing, right to my gut. Yeah. And and and that thinking about the passions, thinking about what it means to just not even going past that, just an acknowledgement of that's what they are. Right. It's so impactful. To someone who's never heard of it.
SPEAKER_03:100%. I I will say, Josiah, it's impactful right now. Hearing that and with the beautiful yeah, the bells in the background.
SPEAKER_02:Well, just the cool kind of art artistically how he did it. He's the scene starts with the with the the priest and the monk starting with the bells, and that continues kind of throughout the whole.
SPEAKER_03:And you I want to say, and I I feel like I can say this in some ways, because I've been an Orthodox Christian for a long time now, thanks be to God. That's orthodoxy. That little taste right there, Saint Isaac the Syrian, one of the amazing, you know, vanguard saints of the of the church dealing with where the rubber hits the road with your our real struggles. We all face those every day. I know I do. And with the bells and the remembrance of our death and the church there in the priest monks, it's all there. Yeah. That's a little microcosm of orthodoxy. Anyone listening to this, Josiah, I pray to God, if they're at all intrigued that they come see that that is their the full thing is here. Right.
SPEAKER_00:Someone has said of the saints that while alive, they were dead. For the living in the flesh, they did not live for the flesh.
SPEAKER_02:Even just and then that part where they're saying, you know, they were they were living, but they were dead. Right. They were dead to the passion. They were dead to the world. And then just the stark images of the the martyrs, the icons of the martyrs, or I think it was uh uh John the Baptist's his head on the you know the icon.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Never seen any of that before. Right. And you know, we're talking where the context I come from is very comfortable, very we don't talk about these things, we don't talk about martyrdom. Right. Never talked about any of that. And seeing that, it's like this is like in in the context of you know, you know, sort of hardcore music or punk music, I kind of relate it back to that because there's a through line there. And that you know, these are some of the similar aspects you hear but in in that music, you know, really aggressive stuff, talking about you know, death and and all these things. But reper looking at it back now, I'm I'm just realizing it's reperp there that is taking what um an appropriate view of death, an appropriate view of martyrdom, an appropriate view of what that life is. And uh the some sort of kind of subcultures try to grasp at that. And that's the original, you know. I think you think Christianity isn't doesn't have anything to do with, you know, um skulls and that kind of imagery and you know, super that's at least what I thought, but it does. It is absolutely does. It just is a different, it's just a different way, it's the true way of looking at it. Right. Well, I can't help but think about Saint Paul.
SPEAKER_03:Saint Paul in his letters talks about death constantly, exactly, right? If you if you are to live and follow Romans as many of our Protestant brothers and sisters do, what does he culminate and say in chapter 11? Offer yourself as living sacrifices, right? Dying to yourself, right? This is kind of death to the world is not making this up. They're getting it from scripture. Right. Saint Isaac the Syrian was deeply involved and invested in in the New Testament and in Scripture, you know, and I think that's important for people to understand. It's not just some cool, oh, and they're kind of cool and they're creative with how they say things. No, no, yeah. This is deeply rooted in holy writ.
SPEAKER_02:Right. And and Paul was not just saying offer yourself a living sacrifice, not like, you know, sacrifice your time to read your Bible and no, he he was meaning sacrifice, you know, in the real sense. Right. And so there's a sobering reality there that is piqued my interest because I never heard these this perspective on Christianity before.
SPEAKER_00:See for which of these passions you are alive. Then you will know how far you are alive to the world, and how far you are.
SPEAKER_02:I I think I after I saw this video, I made the icon, my screensaver. No way. I didn't have any idea of you know right use of it at all. I just was like, yeah, that line of what he just said. You can see if you know, you see how alive you are to the passions, it shows you how far or how dead you are, essentially, to Christ.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Whoa. And then an icon of Christ on the cross.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Orthodoxy is the visible church on earth. Yeah. It is the Christ, it is the church that Christ established. And in that, being that it is the church. It encompasses all of creation. It quoted Saint Isaac the Syrian. You know how different Saint Isaac's life was to your ours in this room right now? And yet his orthodoxy is the same orthodoxy that we are able to partake in every day, every week. Right. There's that that transcendence. And so what I'm trying to get at is you can flower, you can, you can grow in orthodoxy. You can be hardcore. Right. You can be punk. We talked about, and maybe you know the name of the the channel. I don't. It's an Instagram. I do follow them. I don't know the name, but um I think it's just him and his wife. Him and his wife, and he's so inspiring. It's this you know, fairly young guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, he's all tatted up. Yeah. And he's serving as an acolyte, as Mario does. And you see him there, you know, in in the the vestments and holding a cross, or you know, that's orthodoxy.
SPEAKER_02:Right. Because it's it's showing that, you know, it's kind of a living witness of like you can you were dead to your passions. You you're working to be dead to your passions. Yes. The same way that we once were dead to Christ. Right. And this renewal. But it's not a rejecting, it's kind of the when I grew up, I was like, I have to reject all that that part of me that was like interested in you know, that imagery and like all that stuff. I have to kind of get rid of push down. Yes. But in a sense, some of it, yes, you do, some of it is inherently wrong. But in in a sense, it you can take that and repurpose that towards the truth. You can baptize it. Yeah, you can baptize it. Yeah, it's been baptized. Right, right, right.
SPEAKER_03:Who incarnated. I Joseph, uh Josiah, excuse me. I relate so much to what you're saying. I grew up, you know, I would loved metal. Yeah. I used to do Dungeon Dragons. Yeah. Right. I was always into the darker music. I was always into the moody, you know, melancholies. I still am to this day. Yeah, yeah, me too. Um Mario.
SPEAKER_01:Uh, when we went to go see um uh we saw who do we saw Silent Planet, they're my favorite band. Who you met the silent. I got to meet this.
SPEAKER_03:He was awesome. It's like I that speaks to me, right? Yeah. And orthodoxy is big enough for that. Yeah, definitely. Orthodoxy, I'm gonna use a scary word right now. Incl inclusivity. We live in a world that is uh obsessed with is it inclusive? Are you inclusive? Are is your church inclusive of Orthodoxy is inclusive. But in the true sense of the word in the true sense of the word. And what that means is, and Father John says it all the time, I love it. He says, We are the Carpathia, which is the boat that saved the people off the sinking Titanic. He said to the world, and we will accept anyone who is willing to submit themselves to Christ, right? Submit themselves to the church and to re in other words, we're we're not inclusive in the modern woke sense, which is oh, just come be yourself and do whatever you want. Yeah, you're good. Because it doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah. Right. That is so beautiful. It doesn't matter if you've got 38 piercings and you know your entire body's covered in tats, or you're this or it doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Do you uh I can't remember his name. He's the the atheist creator who goes all the churches as a church audits. Have you seen him? Yes, yeah. He did he's the name of his channel. I do, yes. Um, he famously uh enjoys Orthodox services the most at Martha.
SPEAKER_03:At Von D, yeah, who converted to orthodoxy, right? And how amazing is that. And I love that she's not, she has a huge audience, right? And I'm sure a lot of her audience has been turned off by that. Oh, 100%. She doesn't care. She shows herself venerating the icons, going to these services, teaching her son, you know, teaching her son about orthodoxy, teaching her son about orthodoxy. How again, orthodoxy is big enough for that, right? Orthodoxy is open and because because why? Because as scripture says, God wills that all right would come to salvation.
SPEAKER_02:Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think someone like that too, think about someone like Kat Von D. Can you picture it any other denomination other than orthodoxy? I can't.
SPEAKER_03:See, that's a thing.
SPEAKER_02:Right. It it it fits in a way. Yeah. And I I'm careful to say, you know, like, like we were saying, oh, come as you are, you can bring all the, you know, a lot of people in you have to denounce a lot of the stuff that you uh whether you're into, you know, you're really into that scene, or uh it's a it's a hard I'm not saying that it's oh it's a perfect match for but the attitude of of I don't really know how to put it into words, but like Can I try it?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you try it because come as you are, right, but don't expect to stay there. Exactly, yeah. Right? Maybe is a is a way to kind of get at what you're what you're saying.
SPEAKER_02:Right, but that but you're you don't have to there's some things that can be baptized, right? Right. And um that there's parts of those of the like when we think of someone like Kat Von D, she can take all of that imagery that she's right popular for, the sort of social persona that she's popular for popular for, and doesn't necessarily need to completely change that. She can still be herself, she can all wear all black, have her tattoos, right? It's a different perspective now, right?
SPEAKER_03:But now, now the it's such a great point, Josiah. But what does maybe have to change? Maybe if there was some stuff that was maybe a bit more uh risque or or or you know less modest, right? That would have to change. Yeah, right, yeah, right. Because why? Because we're we are being conformed to the image and likeness of Christ, right? Yeah, um, it makes me think of um holy name. Yeah. Right? Another way of baptizing the beautiful, you know, beautiful, heavy music to the glory of God. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. Use using the same format, but now using it in a true sense for Christ.
SPEAKER_03:And like you said, can you imagine that in any other church? Not really.
SPEAKER_02:Right, right. Because, you know, uh Tommy Green, the the lead singer of Holy Name, he was a Protestant for a long time. Yeah. And just uh he did a good inter he had a good interview with Father Moses in person, where he kind of explains it more, but just that journey. And then eventually, like when you when you find it, it's like, oh, this makes sense.
SPEAKER_03:The other night I was just in the mood. I opened up an Anne Rice novel. I started reading um uh Memnoch the Devil, right? I've read her whole entire entire vampire series. Is is that you know wrong? Is it sinful? I'm just kidding. Um we need to edit this part out. No, I mean I can read that and see the perspective that she's trying to bring of what does immortality look like without the transcendence of God, without the redeeming work of Christ in your life. If you had eternal life, then what are the consequences? And you see it played out of her characters, and it's actually a beautiful image of how destitute life could be. Yes, even eternal life when you don't have redemption, because then you're just stuck in yourself. Right. Yeah, forever.
SPEAKER_00:And how far you are to it.
SPEAKER_02:After that video, just kind of started a whole process for me of really being it really moved me and it it gave me a little bit of hope too. Because at the end I go, okay, Orthodox Christianity. I didn't know. Now I can okay, let's research that. What is that?
SPEAKER_03:Because someone's thinking sounds like a way that you're thinking make a lot of sense.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and it's not what I'm getting at church on Sunday, right? Um, and so that journey begins. It and you know, reading, listening to videos, listening to podcasts. I'm consuming probably too much, but I didn't have any direction spiritually. I was just like, I need to get all the whatever this is, I want to hear all about it. Exactly. No, I 100%. And so the reason I'm here today and sitting here and we know each other is because a cloud of witnesses video on YouTube. Wow. In my search, my algorithm was sending me all the stuff. Amen. And so I'm a little context. Me and my wife stopped going throughout this journey, we stopped going to the megachurch I'd mentioned in and previously. Just so big, and we were kind of, you know, we went something, a change of scenery. Yeah. Started going to a smaller church, um still a Protestant church, but very small. And we we liked it. It was a good community. We met a lot of people there, and um met a couple couples there that were uh we're like, oh we're we we could be friends with them, we should hang out with them. And anyway, time goes on. Uh one couple in particular is James or Alfonso as I know him, but uh James St. Simon. Um yeah, he uh we met him and his and his wife, Bree, and uh but we met them and then we didn't see them again for a long time. So uh Eddie, yeah, he he introduced uh a friend of ours. He introduced uh us to them because he's also been on that same thing. Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh I was like, this he's cool, like we'll hang out with him. And I never saw him again. That was his last that was his last week. So that was his last weekend at the Protestant church. They were discerning orthodoxy, and then they went and went. I didn't know this. Probably I have to get it's a long story, so I have to get a context. No, yeah, I love this context. So time goes on, like probably six months. I forgot about Alphonse Chase. I forgot about him. Sure. I was going to this church, but I was I was re I was getting to the point where I was like really wrestling with orthodoxy. It was becoming not interested anymore. It was like I was struggling at church because of all stuff I was learning. Yeah, and my wife comes to me and she goes, You need to meet with someone, you need to talk to someone but me. I can't be your sounding board anymore. Like, you need to go talk to someone. And so I set up um um a meeting with Father Andrew at St. Catharines with a priest, and right around that time, I'm scrolling YouTube, and what do I see? I see a cloud of witnesses YouTube video, and it's Alfonso, it's James. Yes, the guy that I had I he left church. Wait, I was I didn't know it was him at first. I was like, Wow, I was watching it and I was like, wait a second, is that the guy from church? That is the guy from church. I was like, he's Orthodox, he became a catechumen. Wow, and your video of you kind of intro in him, or it was a yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:It was it was literally it was when he and his wife and his whole family actually were brought in as catechumens, yeah. And and we featured that on Cloud of Witnesses. They were kind enough and generous enough to share their story with us, and that's the video.
SPEAKER_02:So I saw him, and then I texted Eddie and I was like, uh, can you give me Alfonso's number? I want to talk to him about orthodoxy. I think he and Eddie's response. I could I wish I had it here, but I can summarize it pretty well. He said, Dude, I can't believe you just texted me this. You need to come to Cigar Night with us. Yeah, that's all that we talk about this all the time. And for me, at that time was so providential. I'm I'm I mean, I just see that as such a moment where Christ you know was moving because I was so you know wound up with all these questions and really struggling, and all the pieces connected. But I I have to give props to cloud witnesses. Thanks be to God.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and Josiah, thank you for telling that story, of course. Because I Mario, you remember the night we heard that we were at Cigar Night. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:We were at Cigar Night and Wait, wait, sorry, I have to pause the buttle just remembered the first time I met you. Yeah, you sat next to me. I didn't never tell you a story, I'd tell you right now.
SPEAKER_04:I was like, this guy looks familiar.
SPEAKER_02:You sat next to me, and I was like, where are they? And you started talking, I was like, I've heard him before. And then I was like, I think that's the guy that does his videos where he like looks at the camera and he's points. And I was like, wait, that is the guy.
SPEAKER_04:That's the guy.
SPEAKER_02:That's great, man. So yeah, but the night we told you at Cigar Night. Um, yeah, yeah, I love that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. It's it is absolutely the reason Cloud of Witnesses exists. And and thanks be to God, um, it's is for those types of things. And so I'm edified and and humbled when I hear such stories. Um, so thank you for sharing that, Josiah. It's so amazing. Because what the audience may not know is, and what was blowing my mind when you were telling that story is that it was absolutely providential. Yes. Because behind the scenes, what you when you didn't see uh James again and you didn't see Eddie again, is Mario had become Orthodox, much to the chagrin of that entire kind of frame group. Yeah, and and thanks be to God for Mario. You know, God bless you, Mario, because it it doesn't get said enough. Mario has been, even including in my life, I want to say this Mario is my godson, but he has been such a a blessing to me because he he's got something about him where he just brings people together.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And in this way, his faith and and dare I say this, Mario, at the time, his simple faith at the time kind of got James and Eddie going, yeah. What's that what's that orthodoxy stuff? You know, and and here we are. Yeah, and I I landed kind of in the midst of it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I landed, you know, before they were baptized, and then these Son of the Cigar Knights were like, it was crazy because they'd be people who were a Catholic guy over here. I was kind of on the fence. Eddie at the time was like getting gonna get soul scriptory tattooed on him. Yes, and Mario.
SPEAKER_01:He said, I will never become Orthodox.
SPEAKER_02:That video, he was like, I remember saying that. I remember Eddie saying that. I remember Eddie saying that.
SPEAKER_03:That is great. And Josiah, yeah, just recently, weeks ago, you got to witness what his him becoming a catacomb. Him becoming a catacomb. I I want to gently shift gears here. Yeah. Um because you know, you're you're our special guest, Josiah. Right. Um, and you happen to be as a profession, you're a hairstylist. A barber. A barber. A barber. You called him a hairstylist. You are a hair technician. No, I'm a barber. I gotta tell this quickly. My father was a truck driver, okay? And he was the type of truck driver you see those trucks on the road that have all the cars on them. They deliver the cars to the right. That's what he did. Real man's job. Real man's job, 100%. Love my dad. Props to my father. He had he said for sometimes they would tell people that they were not truck drivers, they were automotive relocation experts. So that's what I was going for, you know, a hair, a hair technique. You're a barber. Now a barber. So I want to know. And Mario, I want to start with you. Worst haircut you ever had in your life. Oh, you're gonna go last.
SPEAKER_01:All right. All right, um, so this is when I first joined the Navy. I was in core school. I'm in San Antonio, Texas. Right. We just we again, your hair just gets chopped off every time at the the the uh Navy barbers, they don't care. They don't care, and so when we first got privileges to go off base, I remember um a group of us, like five dudes, were like, hey, let's go to a barber. And so we go to like this rough area in San Antonio, right? And they all made their appointments for who they were gonna see. Yeah, so I got the one barber who didn't have anyone, which was actually she was the only female there, right? You know, and I told her, I was like, hey, you know, I'm in the Navy, I want something that looks cool. I was like, but I want a side part, right? And just I knew I wanted a side part edged in. Bro, she like you wanted it shaved in? Yes, you want it. I wanted it shaved in, bro. But she, instead of shaping it here, right, where I used to get it, she did it here. Oh, she gave you a design, and she did it all the way in the back of my head, bro. And I remember looking at it and I was like, oh, there's there's no way I'm gonna get in trouble. But I was like, you know what?
SPEAKER_02:It looked cool. Have you seen the meme where it's like the dog and he's like like closing his eyes, looking up in the air, like exactly, but it looks mean.
SPEAKER_01:And so I just remember like getting back to base and I was like, okay, I look fly. Because I it did look cool. People were telling me, oh, a cool haircut, you know. Yeah, but I think she looked you up. That might have been being mean, you know, because it didn't look cool. Um I want to say maybe a day went by where I had this haircut, and I remember I was in class and one of my instructors was like, hey, come outside. And I went outside and he's like, What is that? Bro, because at that point you just had a line in your head, yeah, exactly. It wasn't like a hairy eye, it was exactly and he's like, You have two options. You either shave your head or you do something about it. Yeah, but you should go shave your head. And so what I did, my hair I used to, I used that was really bad. I used to have my hair really long on top, but I would just slick it so you wouldn't be able to tell that it was out of regs. So what I did instead of it going this way, I just brushed it over the other side and gelled it down so you can't see that it was bad. But that was the worst haircut I ever got in my life. I almost got in trouble for it, but that's a great story.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, well, I can't you're gonna go last, okay. That's fine. I I can't top that. Um, but I I will say the worst haircut I ever had was, and this is embarrassing. I used to cut my own hair. Yeah. And I am sure you've seen this where I thought, you know, I've got the clippers, you know. I thought, I'm doing a good job. How hard can it be? How hard can it be? And so I would cut my hair and do the whole thing. And I did this for months, you know, probably a couple of years maybe. And I'll never forget the first time I went back to a real barber, and it was a woman, and she said, Who cut your hair? And I can see the look on her face, right? She's in the mirror, I see her. And I'm like, What do you mean? And she's like, basically, I was completely butchering the tire back in my head because I couldn't see it.
SPEAKER_02:You can see it, but it didn't bother you getting it. It didn't matter because I couldn't see it.
SPEAKER_03:And I was thinking about all the years of all the people that probably saw that never said anything. And so it took her, I kid you not, three or four months to where she had to gently with what she was doing to get it to where it was back to normal. And let it grow out. And let it grow out, and it kind of got it back because I was, you know, just whatever I was doing. So I will say that was I gave myself the worst haircut of my life.
SPEAKER_02:Josiah. Yeah, I think when you when you're a barber, you get a lot of bad haircuts because when you go to barber school, you know, well, your friends want to cut each other's hair, but you don't have to cut hair, so you're gonna get a bunch of bad haircuts. But the most notable one I got was actually, you know, when you go to barber school, people they'll have like people come, like local barbers come and do like you know, teaching instructions or whatever. And you know, usually they needed a volunteer for someone to show their thing, right? Yeah. And so one time this guy, this guy comes and he's kind of like a sketchy looking dude. Like, he's not like he was on drugs, I don't know, but he was like not all there. Usually they're put together, you know. He was kind of sketchy looking. And he's like, I need a volunteer, you know, like I'm gonna do, you know, whatever it was, a high skin fade or whatever. And I was like, okay, sure, I'll I'll raise my hand, I go. And looking back now, I can find pictures. It was probably the worst haircut I've ever had in my whole entire life. It was uneven, it was butchered, it was blotchy, it was just short. Long. It was awful. But the funniest part is that he was giving a class. So people were watching him butcher my hair like live. Like, like, so I remember he's behind me. He's doing my haircut. Yeah, so I'm gonna, you know, take his hair, and then I do this, and and I can remember just the looks on my class because they're sitting here. I'm like I'm sitting at the wall. And I remember looking out into the crowd, they're like, they're like, what is it? And like I'm trying not to laugh too, because like my friends are like, you know, guys in barber school are like making jokes.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you for listening this long to Cloud of Witnesses. This has been uh conversation with Josiah. Um, God bless you, God bless your wife and your and your baby on the way. Yeah, um we just you know wish you just encouraged and and continued uh blessing, you know, in the journey towards Christ's church. Thank you. Um, Mario, thank you uh for being here. Uh we look forward to seeing you on the next one. Remember, all of our videos, uh complete uncut, can be found at our Patreon. Um go check us out over there. Remember, let us know your thoughts down below. What'd we get right? And most importantly, what'd we get wrong? Yeah. Thank you, and we'll see you on the next one. Bye bye.