Your Church Should Be Older Than Your Mom | Orthodoxy Preserves While Protestants Still Cannot Agree

Your Church Should Be Older Than Your Mom | Orthodoxy Preserves While Protestants Still Cannot Agree.

A restless teenager collides with the Jesus People and catches fire for Christ—but the fire has no hearth. Years later, after Anglican ordination and years of pastoral ministry on the Canadian prairie, Fr. Lawrence Farley (https://nootherfoundation.ca/) names the ache many believers feel today: Scripture untethered from apostolic Tradition slowly dissolves into preferences, platforms, and personality-driven faith. What followed was costly and clarifying—laying down his orders, entering the Orthodox Church, moving a young family with almost nothing, and helping plant a mission that had to fight for every soul. Along the way he discovered the priest’s true work is fatherhood: gathering a family at the altar, preaching Christ, serving the sacraments, and learning to wash feet when it hurts.

Together we take up the questions filling comment sections and pews alike. Why did streams of Protestantism drift toward liberalization? How did separating the Bible from the Church that preserved it fracture Christian unity? What does it mean to “live on Catholic capital,” and why do new conservative movements keep splintering from older ones? Fr. Lawrence traces a line from Reformation fault lines to the Jesus People’s wide tent, showing how experience without shared confession leaves believers unmoored. Against that churn, he explains why Orthodoxy’s ancient worship, coherent doctrine, and living tradition are quietly drawing young men, families, and weary pilgrims across the West.

But this isn’t nostalgia or culture-war comfort. “Come because we’re anti-woke, stay because of Jesus,” he insists. Canons and rules matter only if they serve repentance and the healing of the heart; otherwise we trade chaos for a new Phariseeism. Fr. Lawrence offers bracing counsel on vocation—if you can be happy doing anything else, do it—and describes pastoral life as a slow crucifixion that somehow becomes a wellspring of joy. He points listeners to accessible resources for evangelicals exploring Orthodoxy, deep dives into the Psalms, a forthcoming book on suffering through Lamentations, and his weekly blog, No Other Foundation.

If you’re searching for a faith that’s older than trends and sturdy enough for modern storms, this conversation offers clarity, challenge, and hope. Subscribe, share with a friend who’s restless, and leave a review telling us where you’re seeing ancient tradition bring new life today.

Questions about Orthodoxy? Please check out our friends at Ghost of Byzantium Discord server: https://discord.gg/JDJDQw6tdh

Please prayerfully consider supporting Cloud of Witnesses: https://www.patreon.com/c/CloudofWitnesses

Find Cloud of Witnesses on Instagram, X.com, Facebook, and TikTok.

Please leave a comment with your thoughts!

Transcript

Opening Banter And Setup

SPEAKER_02 0:00

The church should be at least a little older than your mom. You know what I mean? So okay, so I'm looking so I started to look around for what I would today call apostolic tradition. The divisions between us, you know, stupid Protestants, that sort of stuff. You know, you gotta go. It's about a heart of love, it's about a tender heart, it's about a thirst for God, it's about a reality. The the seeds of denominational Protestant liberalism were shown at the Reformation, whereby they made uh at the at the Reformation, uh, like first the Reformation is kind of a big tattoo. You got the uh the Church of England, you got the Lutherans, you got the Reform guys swingingly keeping them out in the background, you got the Reformation, the Anabaptists, the Middle Simons, and all those guys. So it's a big but what they all have in common is to say essentially next to the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the Church is recognized as the man of the Antichrist. They are the underlying foundation. We don't expect that. So I think that the Eucharist being the same price. Woe is me if I do not preach the.

Guest Intro: Fr. Lawrence Farley

Early Life And Teenage Conversion

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Jeremy Jeremiah here, Cloud of Witnesses. We got a great episode for you. Father Lawrence Farley has been an Orthodox priest for over 40 years. He was a priest in the Anglican church prior to coming to Orthodoxy. He has a wealth of knowledge. He's written several books, and we're just thrilled to have him uh join us. We, of course, get into the distinctions of Orthodoxy with Protestantism, as well as this uh current boom that Orthodoxy has seen. It's a phenomenal conversation. We hope that you enjoy it. We look forward to seeing you at the end. Please give this video a like, hit that bell, subscribe if you haven't already, enjoy.

From United Church To Anglican Orders

Discovering Orthodoxy Beyond Ethnic Barriers

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Oh, sadly, I wasn't born Orthodox. I had to come pretty much the long way around. I was born in back in the Jurassic period in the 1950s, uh, which is to say kind of a uh uh Toronto suburb uh whitebred kid in the fit in the 50s. That in the 1950s, a whitebred kid uh was sent to Sunday school. My folks were uh lovely people, of course. Uh did not practicing Christians when I was a wee one. Uh my Catholic dad married my Protestant mom in the United Church prior to Vatican II, that was uh a fairly daring thing to do. Um and so they didn't actually go to church, coming from two different places, as it were. Um but yeah, I got school. I got I got sent to Sunday school because that's what you do with kids. But since they're now practicing Christians in the house, I was certainly not a practicing Christian. And Sunday school quickly gets boring if you don't know the Lord. So uh you you've got to stop going to Sunday school and became um uh an idiot adolescent for the longest time. Um, but when I was about 16 or 17 being an idiot adolescent, um, I thought, you know, this can't be right. This can't be right. You're there given the complexities of the human heart, giving to give it all of this stuff, we're here for 70 years and we got crushed out like a used cigarette butt and non-existence, that's it. That that can't be right. So I started out what was right instead, and it seemed to me as if the Christians seemed to know what the heck was going on. So, looking for answers, when I was about 17 or so, I went back to the United Church of Canada, uh, whence I come, uh, which is a little bit like I think the United Church of Christ in the US. Um, not the most obvious place to start looking for the Lord, especially if your journey is going to end up in Orthodoxy. But that's where it came up. Fortunately, um I met uh three uh young people, my own age, sort of, maybe a little older, who were part of the uh the Jesus people movement. Um, Jesus People Movement, of course, was in the uh flash in the pan and lasted about a dozen, uh maybe perhaps just a little less than a dozen years, uh, but happened to coincide with my so of my adolescence. So I was converted to Christ through the Jesus people. Wow and kind of a hyper charismatic tongue-speaking, prophesying, bible pounding, waiting for the rapture, those guys, um, and in about 1970 or so. Um it quickly became apparent to me, though, that I, you know, the the United Church of Canada was headed in a trajectory that I wasn't prepared to go in as a Jesus people. Um, and plus the United Church of Canada was fairly young. It started off uh uniting Congregationalist, Methodist, and Presbyterian churches in 1925. And my mom started off in about 1920 or so, and I thought, you know, the church should be at least a little older than your mom. You know what I mean? So, okay, so I'm looking, so I started to look around for what I would today call apostolic tradition, didn't know to call it that. A church with history, a church with roots. And if you're a Protestant, you don't fish outside the Protestant pool, you know. It steered quickly away from the Catholics, you know. Should you get a Catholic Bible and it's got more books? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So um, so I uh uh found and joined the Anglican Church of Canada um and uh became an Anglican, and so I thought, okay, so this is uh priest that um I got my BA in religious studies at Trinity College, by M Div at Wycliffe College, across the street in both in downtown Toronto. Uh it was ordained for the Anglicans in 1979 and went out to uh northern Saskatchewan in 1979 to take a couple of parishes in six in succession. Um uh a truly awful experience parish-wise, but um um the bishop was great. Bishop HVR short of blessed memory. He was a wonderful, he was a wonderful bishop, he was a father uh to us. Um so it kind of balanced out. And then it quickly became apparent, of course, that you know, the Anglican Church of Canada that I was in in the uh in the late mid to late 70s and the early 80s, look at a lot more and more every day, like the United Church of Canada that I left, kind of like a liberal Protestant church, only maybe I don't know more candles or something, I'm guessing so. Then I happened to discover you know where to go, where to go. I thought we had our two beautiful little baby girls. We thought, honey, we can't raise them in this. This is not no, this thing this ain't gonna work. But like I said, where to where to go? So then it happened coincidentally, uh accidentally, I would say that's now providentially, uh, to discover Orthodoxy as an option for guys who uh didn't speak Greek or Russian. And the more I did investigate it, the more I talked to Orthodox clergy, the more I read, you know, Schmemen and Geis, the more I thought, well, where have you been all my life? You know? And of course, the answer is you know, I've been I've been hiding in a in a Greek and Russian ghetto, actually, all my life.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

That's yeah, the the the best kept American secret, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:08

Father, can I just know if you speak Greek, Russian, Serbian, or Ukrainian, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:14

So Father, can I jump in there real quick?

SPEAKER_02 7:19

It was interesting because the Anglicans, uh, they if they want to ordain you, they've they've paid to get you out from Toronto to Northern Saskatchewan. But if you resign your priesthood, they're not gonna pay to get you back to Toronto. You're on your own kit. Right. So okay, so that meant uh back to Toronto we go in pre in preparation of going down to say Tecon's seminary for a year or two. Um and so you put the wife and the two little girls on a plane, and you everything that wouldn't fit into a five by U-Haul that I'm driving down there, it just simply abandoned. Wow. So pretty much everything's abandoned. You've got to flee, like you know, from possibly from Sodom and Gomorrah, like that's sort of a flight, you know.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

So don't look back.

Costly Transition And New Mission

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Was uh resigned my priesthood on uh Canada Day, July 1st, 1985, two weeks later, with no catechumen whatsoever, was can was uh crusimated into the Orthodox Church, and then that was in July, and then by September I was at St. Epon's. I was there for two years, uh, or uh priesthood in the Orthodox Church, deacon priesthood, 1986, and came out uh to the Canadian West Coast, suburban Vancouver, a little place called Surrey, to start a mission under the OCA with you know 12 people in a backyard, again, no money. Right. What is it with me in poverty? But anyway, you know, no church, no sife and no so you get a secular job to feed the you know feed the family. Wow, and and was there well till now, pretty much.

The Jesus People Movement’s Shapes And Limits

SPEAKER_00 8:52

So Father, fascinating, and thank you for that that story. There's so much there. I'd like to um uh back up a little bit because you mentioned a couple of things. Um here in the United States, I think around the same time period you mentioned the Jesus people um movement. Here we it's sometimes called the the Jesus Revolution. Um it was interesting, Father, because it wasn't as charismatic. Because my parents were part of it. My parents uh became Christians, they were you know post-hippies, and they became Protestants, uh, you know, non-denominationals. But but the charism wasn't really part of it at that time, but it sounds like what you had come into it was. Could you say a little bit about that movement uh in terms of maybe how it differs?

Protestant Liberalization And The Reformation’s Fault Lines

SPEAKER_02 9:41

Um I don't know whether it's it's the difference between Canadian and American, or possibly between Californian and you know, uh uh from Ontario that I don't know. Right. But I know that the the it began with uh uh Chuck Smith, which you probably know in in uh California, where else? And it seemed as if uh it it was very uh culturally specific. In that in that time, right around the uh uh the war in Vietnam, there were a number of young people essentially um rebelling against the man. You're gonna stick it to the man. Right, right. Stick it to the man, right? And so they were there was a um uh a desire and an openness to ask questions, to accept other answers. You're looking for something, you're looking for truth. You don't you're looking for, I don't know, an alternative. You don't even know what you're looking for. Right. Um and so you'll try anything, especially drugs, if you're you're especially in San Francisco. So um, so there were a number of uh uh Protestant people like um like uh like Chuck Smith and later on our Catholic friends as well, um, who were prepared to say, you know, look, even though you're you're I can smell the grass the the marijuana on you, you know what I mean? And you got those hair and bell bottom beans and what and you know, beads, I mean what uh you know but you're still welcome to my church. Yeah. I will still I won't insist that you get cleaned up, showered, have a suit, a tie, hopefully a skinny tie, you know, and be and and fit in culturally. And so because they had this cultural openness to them, that's when a lot of people found Christ. They were they were they made a um very evangelical distinction between Christ and the church, which as an Orthodox, we're careful now, but I mean, but they were uh they would still make a distinction, I think, between what what they called a little misleadingly churchianity and Christianity. For them, it was not about the church, it was about Christ. I mean, now this is a dichotomy and a binary that the Orthodox are not happy with, but nonetheless, but that was that that allowed them in. Um and so it it seemed uh how Pentecostal ash it was dependent upon where you where you were. But the only common was they were um take the Bible, God love them, rip it from its first century uh ecclesiastical context. Yeah, uh had a very very many people, um a uh non-conformist, I wear long hair and I play guitar and stuff like this, you know, and uh they all had uh an intense eschatological approach to it, you know, looking for the rapture, yes, stuff like this by next Thursday, possibly, you know, that sort of thing. So um uh it seems as if not all of them came off drugs. I didn't I was a boring, nerdy kid in high school. I didn't was never on drugs. Um it seems as if not not all of them had a high voltage Pentecostal tongue speaking sort of a thing. That seemed to be the luck of the draw. Um but my own experience in a place called the Toronto Catacombs under Mervyn Merla Watson, God bless them, um uh that's where that's where they were at. But I but I realize you um uh it we it was uh the Jesus Revolution was a bigger tent than than one might that one might think. You know, they they did they didn't all have long hair, you know. Yeah, so we're showered, you know, that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Right, yeah, very true. Well, Father, thank you for that. That that's that's very helpful, very interesting. My parents were uh part of that movement. You mentioned Chuck Smith. Uh, father, you might be just kind of tickled to know. I was dedicated as an infant child by Chuck Smith himself. Wow, yes, yeah. So I I am very familiar with with what you're describing. Right, right, right. So another thing I wanted to ask about, you talked about, and by the way, everyone in this room right now um is a former Protestant.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

So specifically, I think Calvary Chapel. That's exactly right. I came out of the Calvary Chapel movement as well and endearingly referred to him as Papa Chuck. That's it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Yeah, so so we you know we're we're all quite familiar with that. You mentioned when you went to the Anglican Church of Canada, um, father, you mentioned how at some point you started to notice that it in essence it sounded like their theology started to go a little liberal and you saw that trend. Can you talk to us about maybe why? Why do you think that was happening and what maybe was part of the mechanism that Orthodoxy has that the Anglicans didn't have, perhaps, if this is part of the story, why did that start to happen in that group and how does that happen in these Protestant groups?

Scripture Severed From Tradition: Consequences

Calling To Priesthood: Preaching And Fatherhood

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Um my my guess, it's well uh my conviction, but you know, when you try to be a little bit modest, it's my guess, is that the the seeds of denominational Protestant liberalism were sown at the Reformation, whereby they made uh at the at the Reformation, the of course the Reformation is kind of a big tattoo. You got the Church of England, you got Lutherans, you got uh Reformed guys, uh swingly kicking around in the background, you got the Radical Reformation, the Anabaptists and Menos Simons, and all those guys. So it's a big but what they all had in common is to say essentially nuts to the Catholic Church. Catholic Church is Babylon, the Catholic Church is bad, the Pope was recognized as get this, the man of sin, the Antichrist. Uh, in fact, the in the King James Bible, the uh uh the dedicatory epistles talked about, you know, this English translation will give such a blow to the man of sin, the Pope as he'll never recover from. Okay, so so they were prepared to say that uh large chunks of the church's past, which were formerly considered to be authoritative, right? It's not authoritative. We go back to the Bible. Okay, so there was the the sundering and severance of the Bible from it from tradition, you know. Um and so uh they could get away with a lot of it because they uh they were living on what I would call Catholic capital for the longest time, you know. Why did they why did they accept the Trinity? Well, because they're so used to it, you know. They didn't get it from the Bible, they got it from tradition. They messed in the Bible, obviously too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But but that that's not why they accepted it. They didn't look at the Bible and say, holy smokes, the Trinity. No, they that they got. So they were so there was a number of uh um, like I said, they could they could live on the capital that was that was there, but the uh the underlying foundation was to was a willingness to look at things that had been held in the past for a long, long time and to say, no, we don't we don't accept that. So uh instantly the understanding of the Eucharist being a sacrifice, gone. All Protestants, gone. The idea of the Eucharist being the body and blood of Christ for many Protestants, not Luther admittedly, but lots of other guys, gone. The idea of vestments gone for most of them, you know. Um, then later on, how about getting rid of infant baptism? You know, it it was significant that if you went into the Anglican church, there was an antipathy towards the cross. You know, they like they kept the Catholic calendar, but Palms for Palm Sunday was gone, Ashes for Ash Wednesday was gone. I mean, this was not, you know, and there are some reformed churches even to this day. You walk in there and there's no cross. Right. Because that reminds you of the Catholics. So um you had this uh uh radical separation from scripture and tradition or scripture and the authority of the past, and therefore the fathers. Um and that'll if you're if things are uh if uh if things remain calm and quiet and and don't question stuff, you know, you know, of course we believe in the Trinity, you know. But then when other things come in to say maybe we shouldn't believe in the Trinity, what's your defense? You know, that sort of stuff. There's there's the willingness to to more or less uh rethink and throw out pretty much anything. Uh so that explains, for example, uh the the late uh bishop John Spong, Anglo Episcopalian bishop who believed practically nothing. I mean, he had a I I think he wrote a book Saving, what was that, of Saving the Church from from Fundamentalism? He actually should have titled it Saving the Church from Christianity. Define practically every single doctrine there. So and he's still a bishop. You you think he would at least have the integrity to go get a real job if you don't believe in Christian faith, we'll get out and go, I don't know, uh be a Scientologist or something, I guess. So whatever, you know. But I mean, no, so so that's that willingness to say to the past, we're rethinking it and junking it, because the past has no authority, or in orthodox terms, because we have rejected apostolic tradition. I think that's that's just a matter of so so it's significant, therefore, that correspondence keeps uh breaking into newer, newer, uh, newer denominations. And it seems to me it's always the newer ones that are conservative. What happens is that the old ones throw stuff out, throw stuff out, throw stuff out, more and more and more and more liberal, and somebody says, enough, we're gonna start a new conservative denomination. So you had the Presbyterian Church in the United States getting all sorts of super liberal, and then a bunch of guys said nuts to this, we're gonna start a new Presbyterian denomination called a little confusingly the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Yes, um, but the the newer one is the conservative one, you know, that sort of stuff. So um well said, Father. Well said that's that's the problem that I would that I would suggest. Um there's uh the the seeds of or for its liberalization and uh essential deconstruction were I believe were sown at at the Reformation.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

Yeah, yeah. And the way that you talked about the um Jesus movement in Canada as as uh opposed to how it was in California just goes to show exactly what you're talking about, that there was no real unifying document or confession, or it was just a movement based on you know mass um conversion and immediate baptism and and what experience you get, what theology you get, uh the amount of um you know how spiritual they are, and or at least what they call it, um how charismatic they are, it's gonna vary between church to church because there was really nothing to to hold them together. Yeah, and that's a that's a big problem that we continue to see. And and I like that you connected that back to the Reformation, where that really opened Pandora's box to how to break Christianity, essentially. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

My guess is that what what drew or what what united all those Jesus people groups together is and is that they were all from the 60s.

unknown 20:56

Yes.

Hard Realities Of Pastoral Life

SPEAKER_02 20:56

And an experience of openness towards experimentation that you had in the 60s, whether it's Buddhism, crystals, LSD, God knows, or Jesus, God knows what. But once that once the 60s was over, you know, it used to be the 60s, uh odd as it seems, you go down to the beach, especially the California beach when it's warmer, uh, play your guitar, play a bunch of Jesus songs, attract a crowd, open your Bible, preach to guys, and they would and they get saved, you know. They they listen to you. I mean, now if you do that on the beach, somebody will call the cops on you. You know, you'll never really for out of God knows what cultural appropriation or something, I guess, you know. So that that cultural openness that united all of those young people together, that's gone. That shit got sealed. Yeah. So uh it it was uh I would suggest a a cultural glue, not a doctrinal or uh historical or or um ethnic glue, you know? It was that you know you're we're all searching sixty kids. Together, you know, and then then you then you all then we all grew up. And then, you know, uh that wave has passed.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

And and you know, thanks be to Godfather. By contrast, you know, we have the Orthodox Church. Yeah. Um, which it sounds like if I was hearing your story correctly, around the early, the mid-70s uh or late 70s or so, uh, you had found orthodoxy. Yes. So it was How did you first how did it first do you recall the very first I had a it was like a little bit a little bit providential.

Why Orthodoxy’s Boom Now

SPEAKER_02 22:34

I was thinking uh in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, where on earth, honey, are we gonna go? And I was subscribing to a magazine, which probably isn't being published now, called the New Oxford Theological Review, you know, and a kind of a Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox yada yada thing. Um so happened to see in the letters page, there was a guy who said, you know, as a former Episcopalian priest, and that wasn't Orthodox, I think, whatever he thought. And I thought, wait, what? What former Episcopalian? Now Orthodox. So I, you know, you go to St. I don't know, Peter and Paul Church in someplace in Florida. So I found out what he was, wrote him, and said, What language? They almost dared to ask the question, what language do you worship in? Turns out to be got this, a Western right. So he sends me a cop of his prayer book, which is a lot like my prayer book in the Anglican Church. And I thought, it's in English. Oh my God. So so then the more you investigate, I talked to him, and he said, Yes, there's rather a lot of us, then the more you investigate, that's when you discovered, oh, so I don't have to learn, you know, Serbian or whatever, you know. Right. So so that was that was I accidentally read this, read this letter, and then opened to the opened my eyes to the possibility that conversion was possible for guys that weren't of a of a certain ethnic tribe.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

That's really amazing. Yeah, can I ask? Um, I I didn't realize that you were called to the priesthood uh in the Anglican church, um, which is, you know, I think that's that's wonderful, but I I want I'm curious to know um what called you or what most clearly revealed God's call to the priesthood to you?

Not Just Anti‑Woke: Forming Hearts

SPEAKER_02 24:17

Um it was actually called to the priesthood in the United Church. That would have been the ministry, you didn't call it the priesthood. But for me, it was the the initial draw was having received the gospel, and I gotta share this. I gotta it was it was it was the drive to preach, to share the gospel. It was like the words of St. Paul could have resonated for me. Woe is me if I do not preach the gospel. Uh so if you're gonna be uh needed to preach, needed to be a preacher, which meant the or in that case the ordained ministry. Um obviously, there's more to the ordained ministry than preaching, than giving a sermon. Um, once you can only give the people the word of God, uh you give them the bread of God, you give the you administer the sacraments. You are called to be a shepherd, which is to say you are called to be a father. The main job of a priest isn't to preach into the sacraments, the main job of a priest is to be a father and to create family, to get this disparate group of people and to uh to make them into a family. You do that through preaching and through visitation and through administering the sacraments and baptizing and doing all of that clerical stuff. But but all of those things are what you do to create church, to create, to create family. And so what they if someone said, Well, well, father, I want to be a priest, God save me. So indeed I couldn't talk them out of it. I would say, okay, then what you what you basically need to be a priest is the priest's job is to wash the feet of his people. The temptation is to wear the casting and to swan around and swagger. Don't take it off, take off the casting. If you've got to swagger, don't get a job. I don't know, be a powerful person like a dentist or something like this. So don't be a dentist. But so your job is to hearken to what the Lord said that if you're gonna be first, you have to be the slave. If you're going to, if you're gonna take care of these people, they have to see someone that has authority who washes their feet, loves them, and cares about them enough to do that. That's how you create family. That's how that's the priest's job. Yeah, preaching is a part of it. But for me, the um uh the it wasn't just being a preacher, that was the initial call. You know, you gotta you got you got the fire in your heart, it's gotta come out through your mouth or your head's gonna explode, essentially. But but the priest's job is is more than just that in the historic church in in orthodoxy.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

So that's that's great. Um something that you said I think is is very impactful. And I was gonna ask, um, but you kind of answered it, but I think if if anything, we can expand on that. Um in the Calvary Chapel movement, a lot of young converts were very zealous for the word and the gospel, and many of them uh their process to becoming a pastor is you know, it they basically just pray you in, and there you go. Um, and you said you would try to talk them out of it. Expand on that a little bit more. What would be some of the things that you could say?

Final Recommendations And Resources

SPEAKER_02 27:14

If you think if you think you you could conceivably be happy doing something other than being a priest, do that. But you gotta have the you gotta have, and that's where my my the pastor that the Anglican church that I found, uh Father Bill Uton of Blessed Memory, you know, married me and my lovely wife Donna. Um that was his thing too. You know, you don't want to be a pastor. We have enough pastors. I mean, now we don't, but they used to, you know, we so the the the the pastoral office has enough challenge and and suffering. You've got to you it it it it is a form of slow crucifixion. That's why they probably shouldn't make me the recruitment officer for the the seminaries and stuff, I guess. But I mean but this is the but I'm I'm I've been doing I've been a pastor for over 40 years. So Anglicans and in mostly in Orthodoxy, obviously. Um so any guy who's been doing it for the for the for this long realizes that it it is a it there is there is plenty of heartbreak, um there is plenty of sorrow. Um you you go you go in there thinking that you're you know you're gonna you're you're gonna lots of and lots of enthusiasm, uh lots of almost criminal naivety. Um and you think people are gonna they've got there's just gonna be they're gonna be uh eager to hear the word of God. They're gonna change lives, I'm gonna transform. And you think, uh maybe. Um but you prepared to be let down, prepared to be betrayed, but prepared to be disillusioned. So and that's why, because where because you're a sinner working with sinners.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

So try not to do that as too much to other people yourself, and you'll be doing fine. But you gotta but you gotta be prepared for it. So but if you feel called, if you're saying, I couldn't do anything else with my life except this, then the the sufferings won't crush you and won't overwhelm you. They'll they'll you'll be as saying by saying by St. Paul said, you'll be struck down but not struck out, you know? And so because you'll be struck down rather a lot. Um but if you have this sense of calling that I have to do this, what else can I do? You know, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel, woe is me if I can't stand at the altar and administer the chalice to people I love, you know, then then if you have that, then you then you won't be destroyed. Then you can get up and keep on keep on serving.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Yeah, amen. Father, you you mentioned how you've been a um uh in the Orthodox Church for at least 40 years or so, or a priest in the Orthodox Church for at least 40 years. You've seen a lot over that time period. I I'm sure you're aware, certainly in our parish, by the way, we attend an Antiochian parish here in San Diego, California, and we have seen over the past what two years certainly, just a massive influx of new catechumens, new inquirers, a lot of young men, but also, of course, families and and and other people as well. But can you speak, Father, in terms of the maybe even give us a a history from what you've seen? Have there been movements like this in the past? What do you credit to why this is happening now? Can you speak to some of that?

SPEAKER_02 30:42

I I can I can I was like I was ordained uh in the Orthodox Church in 1986, thousands of years ago. Um uh and we started a mission and I did take care of as the interim guy when they're waiting for the real guy to come. Um came out in 1987, as I mentioned, to start a little mission from you know 12 people in the backyard from scratch. And when I tell them when I told my my youngins, I've sent about I don't know, a lot of people off to seminary, I don't know, a dozen or so, something I guess, but but a little over a dozen people are at holy orders now from uh you know, starting with me. So and what I tell them um is that you have to sweat and bleed for every convert. You know, it the conversions are slow, and if they're you know, if they're if they're not gonna be a flash in the pan, some are. Um but you gotta this is very thin, rocky soil in North America. I don't know what's like in Greece or Russia. I mean, that I that I wouldn't know. But but in Canada, um, you're um I think it was Chester and described the United States as a nation with the soul of a church. Yeah, we don't have the soul of a church. I don't know what the Canadian soul is like, but it ain't anything remotely like a church. It's harder to start missions in Canada than it is in the U.S. Um But US or Canada, you gotta bleed for every convert. So this is I have you know, haven't seen anything like this. This recent surge, and I've listened to other uh clergy that I know about and guys online, they said they said the same thing. They said in the past three or four years, we've had more people surging into the church during during that three years than in the last four years combined. Wow. You know, and you don't have to, you don't, you don't have to, it seems like you don't have to uh go out and uh do the highways and byways and compel them to come in. You just open the doors of the church and boom, there they are. I mean we can't still this other. Well, okay. And all of us oldsters uh report we're not doing anything different. It's not that well, I'm smarter and then no no, I'm I'm I'm just as dumb as I was before, still with the same thing, but um, but they're coming anyway. Yeah, and apparently it is throughout the West. I'm um it is reported that there's this uh surge of new converts in in Great Britain and Malaysia and in Europe. I mean, all over the place. So um, I mean, I suppose you could say, well, it's God pouring out his spirit. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, God's behind everything eventually. Culturally, my guess is that the the the secular West has become so secular and so manifestly spiritually bankrupt that a number of people and and and woke, you know, you know, like you know, you you uh you have you have a baby, is it a boy or a girl? Oh, that's too early to decide things like that. You know, that's sort of stuff. This sort of transgender stupidity. But I mean that a number of people, even if they're not uh uh coming to Christ in his church, they still say enough, you know, enough of this, you know. So and some of the people who are saying enough want to find something with roots, want to find something with tradition, want to find something that's to the test of time. Um so it it seems like uh they're not, for example, they're not coming into the Anglican Church of Canada. The Anglican Church number crunchers have crunched their numbers and they said we're closing churches at such a rate that by 2040, they're guessing, they're gonna run into members. I tend to think that's perhaps a titche on the pessimistic side, but those are their numbers, not mine.

SPEAKER_03 34:21

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

But the surge ain't coming there, it ain't coming into that in Church of Canada, but it is coming into uh the more conservative churches. People are looking for an alternative to uh the useless junk in this secular leftist, etc. etc., that that they're that they're used to and they want something different. Um and Orthodoxy being famously conservative, famously traditional, uh we get we get a lot of them. Um the challenge is to make sure that you're not just coming because we're anti-woke. You come because we're anti-woke, stay because of Jesus. You know, the the the for the formation is to say it's not just it's not just because, oh, you like our politics so much. You know what I mean? Yeah. Vote however you like, but orthodoxy is not about uh we're we're not a voting block. We're the body of Christ. Our fundamental orientation has to be not to, you know, we're to the right, not to the left. No, our fundamental orientation is to the is is ahead, is to the age to come. We are rooted in the eschaton, we are rooted in the age to come. So that means for and some on some questions we're gonna look very, very conservative. Other questions we might look very, very liberal, um, depending upon what the dichotomies and the binaries are. But I mean, uh we are we primarily don't belong here. It's St. Peter says we are strangers and sojourners in this age. We belong to the age to come. So um not to hear. So uh so you gotta kind of let the new guys coming in to know that yes, there's there's discipline in the Orthodox Church. Yes, they we got rules. You want rules, we got them, got them by the truckload. Um, but it's but it's not about the rules, it's not about the requirements, it's about a transformed heart. And you gotta, it's so easy to focus in on the rules because you you you keep them or you don't keep them. It's a little harder to say how's your heart doing, you know? Yeah. Um and so that the the trick is to get all these converts and not to make them uh uh fundamentalist Pharisees. You know, the Pharisees, God loves me, said you make you traverse land and sea, to make a single proselated when you when you do, you make them twice as much a child of hell as yourself.

SPEAKER_03 36:38

Right.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

So we gotta we gotta not do that. We gotta say we don't uh don't make them Pharisees, don't make them fundamentalists. They things that concentrate on the rules, the requirements, the canons, the you know, the blah, blah, blah. Um, the divisions between us and those stupid Protestants, that sort of stuff. You know, you gotta no, no, no, no, no. It's it's about a heart of love, it's about a tender heart, it's about a thirst for God, it's about a hunger for reality, it's it's about this stuff inside. Uh, yeah, the stuff outside's important, but it's there to serve the stuff inside. And if it doesn't serve the stuff inside, if it just makes you a Pharisee, it would have been better not to come.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

But what I do want to do is give you the last word today. Um you also will know that um James, uh his family, and a lot of friends um are doing a Bible study as we speak, um through going through uh this book. And so you have been a blessing to us and to friends uh and family that we know. Um and I would just ask you to um maybe if you were to recommend one of your books um, or could only recommend one of your books, which one would you recommend? And just lastly, what would you want to leave our audience with today, Father?

SPEAKER_02 37:55

Um it it uh I I'm happy to end with a commercial or two. Um the um it it all kind of depends. My books because they're they're kind of varied, it depends what you're looking for. If you're an evangelical wanting to say, I don't get orthodoxy, is it should I embrace this? Then probably living prayer, which is uh quite a conversation with evangelicals, might be the one. If you say, I want to get a deep dive into the Bible, okay, then you're probably looking for my Psalter commentary, the mystical Psalter. Um if you're saying I'm struggling with the idea of of hell, you might want my hell book called The Quenchable Fire. So it depends kind of what you what you need. If someone says, No, I I I was never tempted by the heresy of universalism, well then don't read, then don't give them my book. I mean, you can, but you know, not gonna not gonna need it. Um but I if I can end uh with uh a plug for a couple of things. One is um I have a new book coming out in early February called Um Prayers in the Dark, published by HFA Publishing. It is a um meditation on on suffering in this life, um and rooted in uh verse by verse commentary from the from the Hebrew on the Lamentations of Jeremiah. So the jumping off point for talking about suffering. So that should be out uh early February in time for Lent. Um but I would also like to commend my uh my blog. Every Monday morning I sit at the computer and post another uh blog post uh to my blog called No Other Foundation. Uh you find it at no other found all one word, no other foundation.ca. From our or from St. Paul's words, of course, no other foundation can uh can a man lay but that which has been laid, which is Jesus Christ. So every Monday morning, I if you you if I can show up in your inbox uh of your of your computer, just log on to nootherfoundation.ca and uh I'll be there with your Monday morning coffee.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

Amen. Amen. Wow. Uh Father, just genuinely thank you so very much for taking the time with us today. This has been awesome. Um just incredibly grateful. Congratulations on your new book coming out. We look forward to seeing that. Um, and you know, if if God should will, um maybe our paths will cross another time. Um that'd be lovely.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

Thank you. Thank you so much for the opportunity of uh of uh being with you all today.

Patreon Uncut Conversation Info

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Look at that. You made it to the end. What a blessing that was. We're so grateful to Father Lawrence. This was actually one segment of a very long conversation. We talked to Father Lawrence, I want to say for close to two hours. The entire unedited, uncut version of this conversation is available right now at our Patreon. All of our Patreons have access, not only early releases of the videos, but we have uncut, unedited um editions over there. So you can really get the whole behind the scenes view as well as the entire conversation. We're really grateful you're here. Thank you for watching this long. We look forward to seeing you on the next one. God bless you. Good day, and bye bye.