LDS to Christian: When Feelings Collide with Truth | He Had a Testimony… Until He Met the Real Jesus

“I had a testimony…but I didn’t know God.” Hear John’s raw story from LDS worthiness and good works to a born-again faith rooted in grace.

A family finds meaning, structure, and visible change inside the Latter-day Saint community—until a quiet conversation about road rage and repentance opens a fault line. John Williford joins us to share how a “testimony” built on belonging and answers gave way to a born-again faith grounded in grace, Scripture, and a holy God who sees the heart. No debates, no shouting matches—just the piercing honesty of a brother who took sin seriously and the transforming relief of meeting Jesus as Lord rather than a ladder to climb.

We trace John’s path from cultural Mormonism to a born-again faith, moving from external worthiness to a deep grasp of sin, grace, and the identity of Jesus. The story wrestles with testimony, truth claims grounded in feelings, and how doctrine shapes life.

• family’s entrance into LDS and early “testimony”
• sincerity and structure versus heart change
• feelings as proof and the limits of experience
• sin as offense before God, not just others
• temple recommend culture and worthiness framing
• contrasting Jesus in LDS teaching and historic Christianity
• doctrinal shifts, prophets, and internet scrutiny
• “proper translation” claims and scriptural authority
• good works, brand, and what truly distinguishes faith
• grace, new heart, and the fruit of repentance

We walk through the early pull of LDS life: the tangible history, the warmth of community, and the confidence that every question had a tidy reply. Then we test those replies. Can feelings certify truth when two opposing testimonies collide? Does visible fruit—good works, kindness, disaster relief—prove theology, or can a system be coherent and still misname God? John contrasts an external “worthiness” culture with the biblical claim that sin is first against God, not merely a breach of social optics. That shift reframes everything: repentance replaces image management, and grace replaces a lifelong audit of merit.

From there, we examine key doctrinal tensions: the nature of Jesus in LDS teaching versus historic Christianity, the move toward softer branding and strategic silence, and the common refuge of “proper translation” when Scripture cuts against the grain. We don’t caricature; we let first-hand experience, primary sources, and Scripture set the terms. The result is not a checklist but a call: trade the shelf of unanswered doubts for the living Christ who invites questions, convicts the heart, and grants a new one.

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Transcript

Opening & Subscribe Request

SPEAKER_01 0:38

I don't know you.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

I got something wrong. I'm moving because I don't have the experience.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Welcome to Cloud of Witnesses. Jeremy Jeremiah here. We got a great episode for you. I hope you that you can leave a comment down below. Click that bell. Um, if you're not already part of the group that is following Cloud of Witnesses, please hit that subscribe button. We would love for you to be a part of this community.

Family’s Path Into LDS

SPEAKER_02 1:01

My dad actually was baptized in the church at the age of eight. And so he's had a little bit of experience with the church, and it was kind of for our family this like aha moment of like God speaking through this event. Um so my entire family joined the church. Um, I gained a testimony of the Book of Mormon. Um, because we were living in New York at the time. So for me, I I'd been to church and all this, and it was just like, oh, the Bible's like cool, interesting, made-up stories. But I I was like a dinosaur nerd. Um I literally almost failed third grade because I I refused to read fiction books. And like I just wanted the facts, you know. And uh when I when I encountered Mormonism, it seemed so real. You know, the LDS faith, um, the people were sincere and lovely. And for me, living in New York, I got I lived 30 minutes from Joseph Smith's house. I got to see the things, I got to go to Hilcomora. So it was like this wasn't just like, oh Noah's Ark, you know, just like this absurd thing in the past. This is like, this happened here. Um and yeah, and I saw for a while a radical change um with my family and their behavior, um, which I thought was really positive. However, that that didn't really last because it's all external, and I think we'll get into that more again. That's like Jesus says we need to be born again, right? And so, you know, external antidotes to to our external problems isn't gonna fix our heart conditions, and so what eventually happened is it yeah, what can I ask you?

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Sorry for jumping in there.

Testimony, Feelings, And Head Knowledge

SPEAKER_00 2:42

No, you're good, you're good because I do I find that fascinating that you saw a change in your your parents' life, the family life. Not surprised, but I but I surprising in the sense that were they prior to coming into the LDS faith, were they of no religion at all? What was their background in terms of or were they maybe not living um any faith? Or do you know do you know the history on that?

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Yeah, yeah. So they they were kind of like cultural Christians. Like I would go to church here and there, um they just didn't understand the gospel. And like I said, my dad ate for some time in his childhood. Um, his stepmom was in the LDS really deep, and that was like the only nice person he really had growing up, and the LDS have always taken care of him as a kid, and so that's just kind of it just kind of happened, and they it was during this time where the culture was kind of shifting, where it went from this like the real rough, like, we're Mormons, we're Mormons, and now it's like that's a derogatory thing that you don't use in the LDS.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

That's like a new kind of tephilly.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Yeah, so that's kind of where I jumped in. I was in the mix of this transition in the culture of the church. Um so yeah, they they didn't really know the Bible too well, and they came along and uh showed all these answers.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

So hey John, when you when you say that you had, I think you said gained your testimony, right? Um was that a feeling or was that head knowledge, or how would you explain that initial interaction with the LDAS faith when you first came into it?

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Yeah, I I think for me it was it was this feeling. I'm seeing my parents like be loving, be kind, and like care about more deeper things than just like oh, we're doing this, you know. It was just like, oh no, like we're gonna love and we're gonna choose the right. I'm sure you guys have heard that saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And for me, it was that family life plus the head knowledge, um, that it just it felt so real. And every anytime I dug, I got answers. You know, it wasn't like, oh, I have to like really interpret the Bible. It was just like my bishop can give me an answer, you know?

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Right, right. I think the reason why I was asking is because I've heard a lot of the LDS like elders, right, in my conversation with them. Um, I'll ask them, like, well, how do you know the Book of Mormon to be true? Right. And and what are they gonna say? Well, it's my testimony through the power of the Holy Spirit that's given this to me, and um, it's this divine feeling per se, right? And you really don't have an argument against that when it's a self that you've experienced, right? But how does your experience trump my experience and where like how do we come to terms and yeah, truth? Like there's no truth there, it's totally true. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Yeah, and like you said, how can you counteramm that if

Can Feelings Prove Truth

SPEAKER_00 5:51

you say that you had that experience? Cool, yeah, right? Who am I to say you didn't? Yeah, yeah. Can you speak to that, John?

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Yeah, um so I'll get into like my my actual testimony a little bit because I think this is this is what has been helping me and helping others as well witness to the LDS. Um it for me, I I was in that same boat. You know, if you ever even when I left the church, like if you ever talked to me about Jesus, I just kind of looked at you and I'm like, you you don't even know what you're talking about. So so I I was very prideful and I thought I knew who Christ was. Um, I'd seen priesthood you know miracles in the church that I would look back and say that's all God, but that doesn't mean just because God's working through a wicked organization doesn't mean that like that's that's Him and He affirms it, you know. So I think there's a lot of experiences that are powerful that like, oh well, how could I ever go back on this? But if if we're really seeking the truth, like a a saying in the LDS is like, oh, if you have doubts, put it on a bookshelf. And it's like you know, Jesus isn't like that, you know, He He's the way, the truth, and the life. So it's like, yeah, I I I think we should like be able to ask questions and ask questions. And I think what eventually happened to me is I stopped asking questions of the LDS and I was content with that.

Brother’s Influence And Conviction Of Sin

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Um, and around that time, my older brother who didn't grow up with me kind of came into my life, and over the course of three years, I would just see this guy, his love for Christ, his love for his church, his love for people, and his and he would just talk about his relationship and he would tell me about sin. And I think that's where things just kind of really changed for me because there is this culture of of temple recommends and worthiness in the LDS church. And when I had my older brother talking to me about sin, I'm like I'm just like, what do you like, why do you why are you telling me this? Yeah, and eventually I started to realize our understanding of sin was totally different. And I start because I grew up thinking that if you were a evangelical Christian or any other Christian denomination, you know, you had a little bit of the truth, but uh, you don't have it all. And most of them don't take their faith serious, or they're you know whatnot. And so I I'm seeing this guy who's taking sin way more serious than I am, and the things of Christ more serious, and I'm like, it it really started to get at me, and he was so loving and relational. He and and to be honest, he didn't even know that I was still like Mormon. Yeah, it's like it we never got into a debate on this because I was just the person like this is the last thing I want to talk about. I want to talk about politics, you know. But he I I it eventually just came to a point where I'm like, this guy has the Holy Spirit, and the LDS thought is that can't happen unless you have the priesthood.

Born Again And New Heart

SPEAKER_02 9:07

And I it and in that moment, I was I just like repent. We were in church and like during a worship service, and I was just like I've heard the gospel so many times at this point, and I was like, God, I don't know you, I've got something wrong, like humble me because I don't have your spirit, and like it rat from that day on, it just radically changed. Um, I I would say that's where I was born again. Like, I was given that new heart, like the prophet says. And I told him, like, you don't understand how much I like condemnation and sin I was in and hypocrisy, and it was his love for Jesus, his love for others that humbled me enough to like I I couldn't just default and be like, Oh, I had this feeling. Like, I'm watching this man who genuinely loves the Lord, and you know that that those two experiences couldn't coincide together. Something had to give, and I think that just was all God, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Well, John, where where did you see the two different Jesuses in this kind of experience, right? Like what where was the separation? Because here you are, like you said, it's like for the first time ever, I felt like I didn't know God, and something like scales fell off my eyes, right? So, where's where's the delineation you felt that well I'm not truly serving the one

Two Views Of Sin Compared

SPEAKER_01 11:02

true God of the Bible that the LDS faith would say different?

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Yeah, um, I would say there was this one conversation me and my brother had, and I think this is where it all kind of started. Um we were in the car, and he was telling me sin that he was going through, and he's like, dude, I just have such a problem with like road rage. You know, we're talking, and I'm like, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 11:35

I like to bother on you.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

And he's like, dude, I just I I get so angry with people and I flip them off. And and in my head, my Mormon like knee-jerk thing was, well, did they see you? And he's like, no. And I'm like, well, then like you didn't sin against them, so I don't know like what commandment you're breaking. Really? And so it was like this because you know it's this cultural thing, we're not really reading. Yeah, I do.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

John, we thank you for catching that. John, because no, that is that's huge.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

And and I want you, John, to steel man Mormonism here. Like for real.

SPEAKER_03 12:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Because please talk to us about that again. Is it in fact that it was your understanding as an LDS faithful that if you were to flip somebody off but they didn't see you, that you didn't actually sin?

SPEAKER_02 12:42

Yeah, to me, I thought like, oh, well, he's not sinned against anyone, like, pray about it, like move on. Um, and I would say if I if I'm steel manning why I felt this way, because I don't think yeah that many LDS would be like, oh, that's okay. Um, like an actual teaching of the church, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. In my experience with going to LDS churches and taking groups of guys to just ask questions,

Worthiness Culture And Temple Recommend

SPEAKER_02 13:12

um, we've had the same talk about sin, and the way it was phrased to us by elders was well, even in the garden, yes, that was disobedience, but it was a part of God's bigger plan. So even though it's sin, it it's kind of good. You know, it's this kind of it's it's bad. It's like no free will there. Yeah, yeah, it's like a it's like a it's a it's a it's really a a crazy slight twist in it all. Because we would say like God can bring good out of any broken situation, but we wouldn't say that that was not broken what you did, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Exactly. And and in there sorry, I'll just say it quickly because I already got talked about it. As Christians, right, we would say that we sin against God because we're sinning against God. Can I sin against Eddie? Absolutely. But even if Eddie's totally unaware of my sin against him, I've sinned against God, right? Because what does Christ say? Right. Well, you tell me that you haven't lusted after a woman. Yes, but if you've ever even looked lustfully after someone, you've already committed adultery in your heart, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:26

You've hated after your brother, you've you've committed murder in your heart.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Yes. That's Christianity.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

So, John, take that forward. Knowing that now about the Christian faith, how do you see the LDS view of sin to be different? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

Yeah, I think that again, like you guys both said, um, they are devout, they care deeply about the things of God. Um, I think they've been led astray. And I think the reason that they're caring so deeply in most cases is because of the temple recommend. This idea that I need to be worthy. And there's I don't know if you've ever read all the like 16 questions that that is in that um interview that you have to do with your bishop to have a recommend.

unknown 15:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

They're they're they're like they're deep. Yeah, but it I think the byproduct of that is a culture, not a teaching, a culture where sin is this external thing, and I think the church is silent on it specifically because if we can focus about doing good works, we won't think about our sin as much. We'll talk about sin in here and there, but the you know, how do we even know what sin is, right? And it's like, well, we need to read the Bible, we need to know what God's word says sin is and isn't. And they they don't do that. The prophets are not speaking about sin consistently. If it is, it's gonna be something more major, but then it's just a culturally adapted as an external thing that you handle. Um, and I think my experience now as a Christian, and this is what I want anyone who's in the LDS to experience is is the relationship with Christ, is like this brokenness over your sin and this deep admiration and and this awe for God and His holiness. Because I didn't have that in the LDS, I had a holiness that I was trying to upkeep, that I had to be bearing that image when Christ tore it all.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Yeah, like you're you're you're trying to do it yourself rather than rely on the cross and what the cross truly did for me. Right. Yeah, but I I had a question.

Who Is Jesus In LDS vs Historic Christianity

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Um, what are like maybe hit three things that you would say is the difference of the Christ you serve now compared to the Christ that was being taught or you were serving in the LDS faith?

SPEAKER_02 17:12

Yeah. So I know a lot of LDS members do not want to talk about this, don't even subscribe to this, yeah. Um, but this just being pre-existence. I mean, you read the book of Moses, the book of Abraham, Doctrine and Covenants, and like I don't even have to get into the Great Fallet discourse. Like it's my favorite thing to read to the LDSP.

SPEAKER_03 17:39

You know, you don't have to get into that.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

They hate me in LSP when you have a copy of it on my desk at home.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

The the sad part is it's everywhere. Um, and actually, I I was in a comment section talking, I think it was to Bailey at some point or someone else, and we were going back and forth. I'm like, no, this is like what the teaching is. Jesus is just like us in a spiritual sense, he's not like spiritually above us. Like he's spiritually above us because he did what we didn't do, but like before then, why couldn't it have been anyone, you know? So I uh it's it's a the deity of Christ is very different in Mormonism. Whether the LDS want to not talk about it, it's all there. And I've kind of found myself just referencing their own website. Um and in that comment section, I had an older member actually back me up if what I was saying.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

I might have seen that, John. I've seen that where older members who remember the older teachings will confirm yes, that's what I was taught. Dang. And they look at the new, they look at the new ones like Bailey because the new speech younger speaks. Yes, right. Actually, that's a great question, John. Talk to us, and and actually, and I want to get back to Eddie's question too. We can finish off the other two. But at this point, how is it? Because to me, when I hear you describe this, I feel such a dissonance of like, well, our prophets taught this. As you said, John, it's in our scriptures, and yet in some way I'm currently somehow not really believing that that's the truth. Can you talk us through that, John? What's going on in the LDS mind to hold all these things?

Prophets, Internet, And Doctrinal Shifts

SPEAKER_02 19:40

Yeah, if if I have to be really honest, I think what it is, is the internet has opened a way for anyone to do their own research. Um, I remember a prophet at general conference saying, like, to look at anti-Mormon literature is basically spiritual pornography.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Well, that's one way to keep people away from it, right?

SPEAKER_03 20:13

Right, yeah, it really is. You're in this scripture, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:16

Yeah, you're gonna just be worthy, and you're like, oh well, I don't I don't want to do that, you know. So it's I think that's deeply concerning, and that that's not like an older profit, that's like a recording. You can go back and watch it, I'm pretty sure. Wow. And that's I think that's just troubling and scary. And what I think what the prophets are doing, and and and I want to be careful how to say this, because I think I think this is where a lot of LES members get upset. Is a lot of and I think this is what you guys have been trying to express clearly as well. It's not that these members don't sincerely want to know the Lord, right? It's that they've been led astray, and these prophets have realized we can't keep doing this, like they're gonna catch on. So interesting. So what we have to do, yeah, is conform, but we're just gonna be silent. So they're gonna be silent on those issues. Let's focus more on family, more experiential things, yeah, good works, good works. The more we can bless people, feed people, be there during disasters, you know, which are all great things, and I think those are admirable, but I don't think it holds up to the Jesus that is Christ, you know, because I think heaven isn't about oh, we get to do good things. Heaven's like we get to be with our Lord, yes, and and that idea is is foreign, and they're trying to get away from their own theology and And it's not working. And honestly, to some LBS members, I say, like, if if if when I left the church, I knew about the other branches that were more like serious about the um original Mormonism, like I would have been thrown into one of those, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

Um well, what would differ like all these good works that you're talking about, right? Like feeding the poor and

Good Works, Branding, And Identity

SPEAKER_01 22:24

hungry, right? And adopting you name it, all the good things that we can see that the churches do. But what's the difference between the LDS and their good works and like the Muslims here in America and their good works? Because they that the the faith of Islam does a lot of good things for their communities as well. So where do we differentiate each other on who's truly serving the one true God? Right? Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

Yeah, and I and I think that's the hard thing for LDS members to grasp who are really struggling with that question. I struggled with it for a while. Yeah, I I I do a good do good things, you know. Um I'm doing them in private, you know, only God saw what I did, you know. So it's it's really hard because I I think it's being sincere.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

I think it's making it harder for LDS members to continue to ask these hard questions like you were asking, right? Um it's making it harder because, like we said earlier, they're conforming to Christianity. Never in my life, ever, up until recently, probably within the past five to ten years max, have I ever heard of an LDS member say, we're Christian. Or the LDS faith being thrown into the same category as Christians. Yeah, right. That's a new thing. That's yeah, yeah, it's not something that's been known the entire time.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

I completely agree. I I too, John, I've seen it in my lifetime where there was this I I call it like a it's a PR campaign. Yes, you know, it's like where there's twitching, you know, for a while there it was don't call us Mormons for LDS. I remember the I am a Mormon campaign. Dude, yes, yes, the billboards, yes, the billboards on the freeway. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, and that's obviously a small thing, but it's an example to my mind of how and I think that's quite frankly, I think the Mormon organization is very good at their branding and kind of just kind of keeping up with the modern, hey, here's who we are right now. Um

Common LDS Objections: Creeds And Translation

SPEAKER_00 24:40

John, I've got a question for you on this point. An LDS person who's in the comments right now, what's their argument gonna be against you? What are they gonna say to try to answer you or write you off? Heretic.

SPEAKER_02 25:01

You you would be surprised. Um it's rare that I have someone say, you know, you were just choosing the easy way out, and I have sometimes people who say, you know, you just chose Christianity because you it's easier. Um because they are seriously devout in their faith and in their works. But I think the majority will all go back to the creeds um and a lack of understanding of church history um and a lot of misconceptions that I've had to do my own research on to properly give answers to um in conversations that I've had. Uh I think I think the harder thing is like you said, now they're trying to focus on what we have in common, and that's really detrimental because it just makes things so much more confusing. Um yeah. And it's it's hard to look at someone who I because I was in that boat for five years of my life. I called myself a Christian, I dated a Christian as a Mormon. Like, whoa!

SPEAKER_03 26:14

Dang.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Like, you know, you you just it's so hard to distinguish, but I think the biggest drawback I would get from LDS members is yeah, just the creeds, um, a misunderstanding of what that is, and and translation of the Bible, I think, is a big one too. Um and my response to that is I've been open and in my doubts as a Christian, I tend to like low-key think that Mormonism is true. Yeah, but then I like dive deeper and it's just so hard to believe it. And I've talked to the LDS church's like top apologist at BYU, and his answers for like really important questions are just not satisfactory, and I don't think like they hold up to truth and reality, and I think that's the the hard thing is is God is God is a God of relation and and truth and love, and if I I feel like God just doesn't contradict like basic things of like

Scripture Authority And “Proper Translation”

SPEAKER_02 27:21

you know reality, um and so and I don't think that's putting God in a box, and I think that's kind of how they view it. Um we're always putting God in this box, but really we're just applying what God has revealed through scriptures on what false prophets are, and that's the hard conversation we all have to have, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:42

It's like we're learning to become God as God learned to become God according to the LDS faith, right?

unknown 27:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

Yeah, yeah. And it's it's really hard to to get them to see that. Um I think a lot of that is because uh the LDS is banking on you being biblically illiterate. Um and and I think that's that's that's the gamble they roll.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Well, and it's a gamble, let's face it, it's a gamble, they're winning more often than not.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Yeah, look at the good look at the millions of people worldwide.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Yeah, 100%. There's so much biblical illiteracy.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Yeah. I mean, there's a great argument that I love, is uh, I think is Isaiah chapter 53, right? Like where God says, I know no other gods, there was no God before me, there will be none after me. I am the only God.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

From everlasting to everlasting, yes, I am God.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

So if we're just using that script biblical in context, the way it's written, you can read it any other which way, there's only one way to understand it. How do you, as an LDS member, argue that scripture from the teachings of Joseph Smith or any other prophet from there?

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Go for it, yeah. I I love this. So this is why I I love going up to Utah. Um, that's something I'm wanting to do more, and eventually I want to move there and live there because I I love this part. I love being able to help people like kind of pick their heads because I can tell you they would a hundred percent ninety percent would probably say, Oh, we don't really know Isaiah 53 well. Right. So we we we don't know if a hundred percent that's certain of what the author even wrote. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

Yeah, it's the classic we believe the Bible insofar as it's properly translated, yes, which of course is what's the old saying? It's a loophole big enough to drive a Cadillac through, right? So, in other words, anytime you come across something difficult that you can't respond to, uh, we don't really know if that's what it says.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

You're interpreting that, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:55

Uh yeah, yes, yes. And I and I think that's what's hard, is because the LDS has people like this BYU professor and all of these people who are doing research to get answers that fit within their framework. So it feels to the one who's genuinely honest and wants to know the answers, that there is answers, but coherency doesn't mean truthfulness. And I think that's hard. A really hard thing.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

We're done dropping some truth mode right now.

Closing, Patreon, And Thanks

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Look at that, you made it to the end. Don't forget, right now at our Patreon, search Cloud of Witnesses over at Patreon. You will find this episode completely uncut, unedited, in its full form. Thank you so much for your support. Literally, you helped keep us going by God's grace. Um, it works through people, and we're glad to say that he's working through you. Hope to see you on the next one. Goodbye. God bless.