Orthodoxy is Growing but the Real Battle is Basic: Prayer Humility Obedience | Why Many Get It Wrong

Orthodoxy grows fast, but the real battle is basic: prayer, humility, obedience. Nikko explains why “hot takes” can harm seekers and why locality matters.

Orthodoxy can feel like a tiny world. One unexpected conversation after liturgy proves it, and it sets the tone for a wide-ranging talk with Nikko about what actually sustains Orthodox Christianity when the Church is growing fast: humility, prayer, and the daily work of repentance. We get honest about how social media apologetics can form zealous inquirers and catechumens into armchair experts, while the real “theologian” is the one who prays, shows up, and learns to obey in the life of a local Orthodox parish.

We trade hot takes for the basics that actually build an Orthodox life: prayer, humility, and faithful attention to the people right in front of us. Nikko shares why Orthodoxy spreads through relationships and community, why money and material stewardship matter, and how to approach suffering, evangelism, and Lent with sobriety.

• the Orthodox world as a real network of parishes and people
• why social media apologetics can distort Orthodox priorities
• God as someone to be experienced through prayer and the sacraments
• unpacking the Western mindset slowly instead of rushing for status
• locality and staying in your lane with priest and bishop level matters
• doing the basic things well as the real path to growth
• tithing and funding the Church without reducing faith to money

We also tackle the topics people hesitate to say out loud. Why does the Church ask for money? What do tithing, stewardship, and parish donors have to do with the Incarnation and caring for real human needs? Nikko shares a grounded view of giving, poverty, and discernment, plus a powerful takeaway from The Sunflower by St John of Tobolsk on conforming our will to the will of God, even when life is painful and confusing.

Then we pivot to evangelism and the LDS world. Jeremy Jeremiah tells a story where someone leaves Mormonism not through a debate but through Christlike love, and Nikko explains why community and gentleness often do more than “owning” someone with arguments, especially with young Mormon missionaries. We wrap with practical Lent advice for new Orthodox Christians and for those already “enlisted” in the fight: take grace when you need it, and take the basics seriously when you’re ready.
If your Lent turns into label-scanning anxiety, you missed the point. Nikko gives a grounded approach: take grace when you’re new, go to war when you’re ready. 

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Transcript

A Small Orthodox World

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I want to tell a quick story, Nico. This was so cool. Um, and to me, it it just speaks to how what a small world the Orthodox world is, and really how united the Orthodox world is, at least how it can be. This is about two or three weeks ago, uh maybe a month ago, because I lose track of time pretty quickly. Uh, it was during an agape, it was after a liturgy one day, and this really awesome guy named Louis, um, who is an inquirer. He might be a catechumen at this stage at St. Anthony's, the parish I attend here in San Diego. And he came up to me and just he had this big smile on his face, and he was like, you know, Jeremy, nice to meet you. How you doing? You know, we start chatting, you know, about his story and how we found orthodoxy and all that. And lo and behold, he brings up that he spoke to or went to, visited a parish for one of his first times in Idaho. And I go, hmm. I go, Idaho. I said, Did you talk to a guy named Nico? And he says, Yeah, I did. I spoke to Nico. I know Nico. And I go, how amazing is that? And uh I told him, I go, I'm gonna tell him, you know, you say hi and the whole bit. That's how small orthodoxy is. Um Nico, can you tell your side of that of that story?

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Well, I mean, it's so funny that you bring that up just because this this happens all the time. I mean, you get people that I run into and they'll be talking about different people, different priests, so on and so forth. And it's just like, oh, I know who that is. Oh, this person, you know, they they actually raised me since I was a kid. They helped teach me, you know, all these different things. I've had this happen numerous times. But Louis, in particular, like, not not a whole lot to say about that in general, just because we did just meet and talk for a little bit. But it is just impressive how often you run into the people that like anywhere we're networked in, anywhere you can talk to a priest, and oh, I know this person, I know this person, especially because like I love the amount of people that come through sponsors, through godparents. Amen. And so we have so much connection as far as like you may not know that person directly, but that person is X person's godparent, and then you have a whole different kind of connection, or it's funny to see even like you can see reflections of who they spoke with, or you know, the different things that they tend to center on when they talk about orthodoxy. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. That's impressive.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Shout out to Louie, um, who's on an amazing journey, and and I I just love that kind of thing, uh, Nico. I love that you bring that up. Tell our audience um, who, you know, thanks be to God, there's a lot more people uh listening to Cloud of Witnesses now than the first time you are on Cloud of Witnesses, Nico, which was what, is that a couple of years ago at least?

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Yeah, I I was thinking about that when you sent me the invite for this. I think it's been a couple of years at least.

Nico’s Story And TikTok Roots

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Yeah, yeah. Cloud of Witnesses itself has we started it just over three years ago. So we're we're going on, going into what will be our fourth year. Um, and and I know we talked to you fairly early on. So um that that was awesome, Nico. Tell tell our audience um about yourself and and you know, um where's where's Nico at these days?

SPEAKER_02 3:21

So I uh generally have been jumping around on well, I started doing apologetics on TikTok, and uh that's where Jeremy and I really started to talk.

unknown 3:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

And glory to God, because that was a really, really good time. And I I think we had a lot of good conversations. We had a lot of fruitful conversations. And when I did TikToks more commonly, because I'm very rarely on now, I try and put the the flavor of that to be more along the line of less argumentative, because in orthodoxy we find out so quickly that essentially God is something to be experienced, not something to be grasped. So we don't we don't do the whole, I have to give an explanation for these things. And when I met Jeremy, it was very much in that vein. We just had conversations about things, and Jeremy well knows some of the the TikTok flavors are very interesting. You get some people that are uh are a little a little more difficult to talk to because they tend to be coming out from uh very outside orbit, if you will.

SPEAKER_03 4:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

But that was a a great time, and I've continued to do some of that, but then also glory to God. Uh I have many godchildren now, and I continue to receive them, and that's been a beautiful thing. But most of my effort is going into that. I never really planned on being very big in any of this stuff. I just like to help people along the way. I'm more like small time. I love to study and read, but that's where that comes from because ultimately in our orthodox life, and hopefully all of us are doing this, we're focused more on living it than we are just reading about it.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Amen. Amen. Nico, I I I want to say that you everything you said, you know, is true, and I uh uphold it 100%. But you're also a very learned and well-spoken man. Uh, and I want to say that genuinely and and and thank you for that. Because, you know, one reason I'd like to do this podcast today is I just kind of want to get some Nico wisdom. You know, it's been a little while uh since I since I've uh because you're right, TikTok is not what it was, at least not around the time you and I were so active on it, involved in it. I took some hiatuses here and there from it, and it's fascinating to me, and we won't belabor this point, but I still post on TikTok only because it's there. I really, our ministry is is doing well on Instagram, on YouTube. That's where we put our energy. I'll post the same exact videos on TikTok and get almost no responses whatsoever. It's fascinating. I think I've been on Shadowban for what feels like an entire year. So I don't know. I don't know what's going on there. The the the crowd seems different. You know, I know there's some of our friends are still on there, um, but it it it's kind of a different world. You said you've limited your interactions on there, Nico. What uh how often are you getting on there? What's your activity on there?

Zeal Without Prayer Gets Risky

SPEAKER_02 6:24

Maybe like once or twice a month, if if that. And usually I'm just observing and kind of trying to stay in touch with some friendships that I've developed there. And I mean, you're talking about like when we first got on, I feel like things have shifted a lot. And unfortunately, orthodoxy is growing. Glory to God. That's a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 6:41

But unfortunately, we have many inquires and many catechumens now that are really pushing a line, they're really tone a line, and they really want to get out there and they're zealous for the faith, and that's not bad. Right. And I mean, I think we've had this conversation before, but the unfortunate part about that is there's a lot of side effects that come into that. They want to dive in so quickly. And you and I both know it takes a lot of time to unpack the Western mindset. And in fact, I think we'll spend the rest of our lives doing it, to be honest with you. Because I love the intellectualism of it too. I'm a big reader, but I I have to find ways to grind or have conflict with that now. Because there's a lot of things where it's just like, yes, come in, yes, learn all these things. That might be the thing that brings you to the door. But once you're here, we have to have some humility and get to ground with it and decide to live a prayer life. And it's funny because, like, if I were to pick, if I were to harp on something that you never hear the inquires or catechumans that are really trying to put orthodoxy out there and their hearts in the right place. Right. You never hear them, hey, this is like the things that I'm doing for a prayer rule. You really should talk to your priest about a prayer rule. I have no advice for you whatsoever. I'm not experienced in this area, but you need to start doing that and get in touch with God. Because as is anyone who's had any time with orthodoxy knows, the theologian is one who prays.

SPEAKER_03 7:58

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

God's going to tell us everything that we need to know. We don't have to do this whole exploration. And in fact, you really don't know what his purpose is for you until you get in touch with him and you experience him. And so you may not be destined to do all of these learning things. That may come to a big nothing in your life. You might be destined for something much greater or much more difficult that has nothing to do with the intellectual realm. So, of course, we all try and use our talents where we can, but I think that's the worst end that I've seen out of TikTok now is there's a lot of people, and I did this early on too, so I'm completely guilty of it. But you give advice you really shouldn't. And these are things that we strive for locality inside of orthodoxy. We strive to help people where we are, right? Yeah, yeah, and in our sphere. Yeah, too. God, God only gives us so much to we can't do everything. And so I think one of the negative effects of social media has been is everybody feels like the world is theirs, you know, it's so big and they can reach out and touch all of it. Right. And so you got a lot of people, like we all have our personal opinions, and we might express them inside of our parishes or even to our priests or our bishop as as concerns, but there are certain things that are not in our purview. So there are things that are being done in Constantinople, for example, under that patriarchate, and people are super concerned about this. And it's not that everybody that's Orthodox doesn't worry about these things. I think you should think about them for sure.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

Sure, and certainly pray about them. Pray for these people, yeah, in these positions.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

Yeah, absolutely. And and realize that they're still within the bounds of these are our brothers, yeah. Legitimately, and on top of that, they're leading us.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Yeah.

Humility Locality And Basic Practice

SPEAKER_02 9:42

And so, you know, coming from the experience of having military background and everything, I understand to a large degree, you don't get to question everybody that's above you at all times. That's not how that works. And so some of these things that are going on across the ocean, yes, that are so far away, it's like, I feel like now that I've been in the church for a little bit, you could easily say we should worry about what's here. And there's so much here going on. And yeah, I have opinions about those things, but why in the world would we try and extrapolate to something that's so far away? And I always think to myself, because like I said, glory to God, I've inherited so many godsons, and they're they're they're blessings, honestly. But there's difficulties that they're having in their lives, there's difficulties I'm having in my life that I could spend a lot better time focusing on rather than doing bad. Yeah. And worrying about things that are really far away. And so, like, if I could pick the transition in TikTok, it would be, hey, I understand you guys are on fire for the faith, but let's not be concerned about things that are much bigger than us, that are, you know, bishop or priest level concerns. And also let's focus on getting back to the basics.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:54

And that's another thing that comes out of the military. Is like, if you ever meet anybody that does special forces things, they're just really, really good at doing the basic things every time well. That's what they do. Wow. And so I think that you in you can see that reflected in in monasticism and asceticism. If the monks are our special forces, that's how I would think about it. Yeah, they're just really good at doing the basic things. They're always in touch with God, they're always trying to be kind, they're always praying. And so if you can do those things, you really reach up a lot higher in the mastery that's given to you. God can give you anything that you need in any given time. That's the beauty of things. Like when we talk about miracles or like tongues, for example, it's proof that if you need that thing along the way, God will provide it to you. Don't even have to worry about how it comes. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Nico, I think we can end the episode now. That's awesome. That was great. Uh I needed to hear that. Um, and that, yes, you you talk about those simple things and how, you know, I think we forget how powerful pride is. Um, I know it's a it's a struggle for me. It's something that my uh father confessor, I am sure, is tired of hearing of how often I have to bring it up. But that idea that, well, no, these are the talents and gifts that I feel that I've been given. So I want to use these to God's glory. It all, you know, it sounds good and it's, you know, hopefully true. But like you said, where we might be really called is to be a good godfather and to be involved with our godsons. It's an area, Nico. I'll just say it. I I struggle. Um, I've been blessed myself with godsons. Um, and I we wanted to set up a call once a month because some of my godsons have since moved out of state, et cetera. Ones deployed often uh in the military. And we have yet to actually have the well, okay, I take it back. We had one call and one of my godsons was able to make it, um, but it didn't work out with the whole group. So I hear you loud and clear, and I I thank you for those for those words. Um It's a lot less shiny, isn't it? Orthodox life. It's it's not uh fast moving images and intense techno music.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

Yeah. Well, and so much of it comes down to there's really a humility, and I I think that like not that we could, but if I could pick something, if I went back to inquire an eco that I could do, it would be like, huh, I should treat this a lot like the military. You join, it doesn't matter how old you are, what experience you're coming with from your back background, you're just a recruit in the beginning. You don't really know, and you just don't have any familiarity. And yeah, the guy that's above you now that holds more rank than you, he may be 10 years younger than you. It just doesn't matter, though, because you're you're still in for that whole experience. And it doesn't matter if you're the smartest, most educated, best, most in shape recruit. It's still gonna break you down, and you still have to go through the process and you still have to be a recruit. You still have to follow the orders. Right, right, right. And and so there's a there's an order, and this is how everyone's ever coming to the church.

SPEAKER_03 14:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

And so we don't do this whole thing with like, you know, like, well, you had X amount of this knowledge in the background. And yes, that may bring you closer in some ways, and yes, it's a talent that we could acknowledge, but you still have to go through your time just learning everything else. But I think if people would lean into that, they would find out that it's a much more holistic experience and it's worth having, it's worth having because you're gonna recover some parts of yourself that you didn't even know were missing, and you're gonna begin to realize that sometimes, like, we don't have to do what we're doing right now and have conversations around these things. Like, sometimes the better thing to do is to be in the kitchen at your parish and be preparing food for everybody, right? Or making coffee for everybody, or listening to that one person that feels like they've been neglected somehow. Yeah, those those things are are just as powerful and and just as necessary. And I always think back to like we've talked about before. One of the beautiful things about orthodoxy is it's not intellectual, right? That's there. It's that you can find it if you want it. But one of the things is it you can come in with a mental incapacity and be a much better Christian than me, be a so much better Christian than me. Because they show up, they take the sacraments, they participate in these things, they join into the ritual of the church. It's something they participate in and don't even understand. And I don't think that people understand how beautiful that is. Yeah. But they're more Christian, I feel like, sometimes than those of us that have all of these capacities because it just gets in the way.

Giving Money And Funding The Church

SPEAKER_01 15:56

100%. 100%, Nico. The you know, the the widow that comes in with the with the mite, right? It's that that's it is that idea, right? Christ said she went away justified. And you you're so you're you're pointing at something that is interesting, Nico. We can maybe talk about this a little bit. Um, and it might seem like it's coming from left field, but hearing what you're saying, you know, we can talk about real orthodox issues. And something that a brother of mine has recently um kind of been struggling with is the idea of the church has to raise money. Um, the church has to be funded to be able to do things like feed the poor and also even feed people at agape and um you know add a new baptismal to the church or things of this this nature. And so the church, the priests, I'm sure, don't like it any more than anyone else, but they have to remind the congregation of the need for tithing um and for for giving of your fruit to God. Um and for this this individual, it it was a struggle because they started to see, well, is is it all just about money? And certainly I'm sure you're aware, Nico, you've heard sometimes Protestants will argue that, well, yeah, you Orthodox, you all your fancy churches, you know, how come you're not taking care of the poor? That money could have gone to the feed the poor, or that type of thing. What would what would be your your thoughts, Nico, your your um advice related to that type of idea? Someone who's struggling with money and and how we have donors in the churches, and these donors sometimes are maybe mentioned a lot and they're brought up um because they are such a big part of why the church is able to continue doing what it's doing. What what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Um the first thing that I would say is that we we we live we live in the world, right? So we have to do these things, and and there's very much a the the incarnation itself is an example of the fact that God cared enough to enter into this world and to take care of the physical things. And if you look at it, he's healing people. And it's funny because you know, you have the story about those that he meets along the road, and ten of them come and only one turns back to praise God. Yeah, and it's funny because if we think about all the things that we receive in life, it really is we don't give back much, we don't really think about it. I mean, I'm especially guilty of that. I I look at people around me and I go, man, they have so much money and they they've got all these things that I I want to achieve. But I I forget sometimes to look back, and you know, I traveled the world, I saw different places, I've seen people that are far more impoverished than even the impoverished person that lives in the United States. Amen. We don't give back much. It's really hard to reach that point where we're we're convicted by that, but it's true. And like I can say that with full conviction right now.

SPEAKER_03 19:03

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

But the other thing is I think that people don't see, and it's funny because I could talk about this book that I'm reading, The Sunflower, and this has a lot to do with it, but sometimes God gives us poverty on purpose because we're that bad. And it's it's a boundary that keeps us from actually suffering more. The worst thing that could happen to someone who's drug addicted is they win the lottery lottery because they're gonna pass away within the week. Yes. The moment they get access to that money, they're going to indulge themselves to death. And so we look at these things and we think, oh, this is so terrible. It could go to the poor, but nobody ever questions, you know, maybe that's where they need to be. And does that mean we don't help them? Absolutely not. But does that mean that their reasons and careful thoughts that you have to have when you enter in that situation? Absolutely. Because what who would you be if you just enabled them? Right. And so this is a complaint. And sometimes you do, you just give and you pray that God guides that in the correct direction, sure, and that your heart's in the right place and that you're not harming that person by doing that. But we oftentimes don't have the thought that if we just gave everything that we had to the people who were suffering, it could actually put them in worse places. And so in orthodoxy, we talk so much about as you get closer to God, sometimes things become darker. And people look at this in a very negative light, but it's like, no, we have to rely even more. So again, back to the prayer life. Hopefully, I'm praying enough that if sometimes the prayer is, hey, God, I feel like this is the right thing to do. But if I do this, can you please provision that it is actually the right thing to do? Or please stop me? Please, I don't want to do anything to harm this person. And so you don't really think about that. But that's one of the difficulties, is in the West, especially in the United States, we have so much money, and so it becomes a focal point at some point, and we really do entice that. But I think the other argument to be had is like if you're in dire straits, if suddenly you ran on a financial hardship, like if I lost my job today, I would suddenly become very possessive. And I might need help from other people in that particular situation. And it does handicap us because we are so weak.

unknown 21:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

And so we'll and we'll end up in the same position. So we want the church to have that capacity. In your locality, we want them to have that capacity to help people so that some of us can acknowledge that we would be weak enough that we might forget about God and forget about attending church if we ended up in that situation.

SPEAKER_03 21:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

And I think if you were really honest about it, you could see that that is a problem. So it's it's a capacity, it's a it's a it's a grace, it's an economia that we do that for other people. And hopefully we have enough support within churches to do that. And it is a demand on those of us, and I feel this personally you know, that we give to the church so that they have. Have that capacity. We need to do that.

Conforming Your Will To God

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Amen. Nico, um thank you. Thank you for that. That's um it's it's beautiful. And it's, you know, I'm a former uh reformed Calvinist. And we used to pride ourselves in believing in the sovereignty of God. We always talked about, well, you know, we're we believe in the sovereignty of God as if no one else does, right? Calvinists really believe in the sovereignty of God. And where we applied that was, well, because the sovereignty of God has decreed these guys will be saved and these won't, right? I think as orthodox, and one of the beauties of orthodoxy is at least in its pure form, obviously you and I we will struggle, I will struggle to ever fully get there to where I really do believe in the sovereignty of God, is in exactly what you were describing, Nico, and that is trusting God to bring about his will through people, through his church, in a way that may not make sense to me. And it goes back to what you said, that simple humility and obedience to that high. I love the military analogy you were using, right? I can't understand those upper levels. I'm sorry, it's above me. But what do I know? I know that we are called to give of what we've been given. And Nico, you make such an important point. All of this belongs to God. I can say, oh, this is mine, you know, that's my car, you know, that these are my clothes. No, it's all God's. We're just stewards at best of what God has given us. And I think that does change the perspective entirely when it comes to, you know, how much are we really giving back, as you mentioned. Um the book you mentioned, Nico. Um, tell us about it. Uh, I have to say I'm not familiar with it, and I would love for myself and the audience to learn about it.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

So it's the sunflower, and I'm not sure how well this is going to show up on my camera.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

This show's great, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

But it's uh St. John of Toblesque, and it says conforming the will of man to the will of God. Wow. This is very much what that book is about. And I would caution people because it's difficult. You want to be in uh in a fairly good place, a fairly stable place when you read this. But one of the things that they talk about, and Saint John talks about in there is monks have this idea and there's this story in there where I'll I'll summarize because people should read, but it's around this idea that there's two elder monks and they meet each other, and the one elder monk knows that the other has led a particularly hard life. His childhood was terrible, his parents were abusive, anything that you could think of. Yeah. And so they meet each other, and the other monk says to the monk that's been disenfranchised by these things, we'll say. He says to him, Blessings upon you. May God grant you a better life. And the other monk who suffered these things turns to him and says, I've never suffered a day in my life. And he goes, No, no, no, that's not what I meant. I meant, you know, that you know, God grant you better things in the future. And he says, Yes, but everything's been great up until now. And the one monk is scandalized by this because he's he's trying to wish his friend well, and it doesn't make any sense to him. Right. And so we ask him, Well, how in the world can you say this? And he says, Well, everything that God has given me, I've told myself that I want. Everything that's happened to me, everything that's been given to me, I want because it's what God wants for me. Wow. And it's such that little bit, if I I could extrapolate anything that I've read out of the book thus far, is just such a powerful mindset to have. Because if we're leaning into things, if we're really moving towards what God wants, well, sometimes that's gonna come in forms like you've just been talking about that we don't expect in ways that we can't even imagine. Right. And sometimes it comes in the form of suffering. And so it's just such a beautiful mindset to conquer things. Like, you know, it it's it's like exercise, it's like working out. It's it's painful in the in the middle of it, but you know you're working towards something so meaningful. So if we're praying and we're trusting in God and we're saying, Oh, well, I I'm having this horrible trial right now, and it's very, very difficult. But if you just think to yourself, what am I supposed to be learning from this? And this is what God wants for me. So of course this is what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm just gonna lean into it and move through it. Right. And it's kind of funny because in the infantry we say embracing the suck. And it's the it's everybody gets like, I don't know why you guys enjoy this so much. And it's like, well, because at a certain point you realize you just have to embrace it. You lean where you're at. It's where you're at. Yeah. And it's where you're supposed to be. That's the thought. Right. Is that the authorities have placed me here because they have more knowledge than I do. And we serve imperfect authorities as men. But under God, if you just look at the sovereignty of God as you were talking about, that He emplaces all of these things for our good, and He's always working everything, even the things that appear terrible and evil to our good. And you're just leaning into it. Yeah, amen. What a beautiful thing to do, and what a mindset to have. And it doesn't make it any more diffic less more or less difficult during the time. You're still going to suffer it. But at the same time, if the thought becomes, this is what God wants, and I embrace that, you have a way through to meaning now. You have a real capacity for it.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

I am reminded, Nico, just the other day, as you know, we celebrated uh St. Athanasius uh the Great, um, who was a deacon um at the time of the first ecumenical council. And as you know, he spent a good portion of his clergy life in exile. Um, and it wasn't until later, in the later years, where he was able to come back into the bishopric. I'm sure, Nico, he could have said at many junctures along the time of the exile to say to God, God, you gave me all these great talents, and clearly, you know, a gifted man of God, not only in learning, but in expounding the faith, etc. Why why why do you have me out here in the desert, so to speak? Right. And yet, I I think too is Saint Paul, right? Think how much time Saint Paul set spent sitting behind bars. Don't you think he could have said to God, God, I should be out on the road. Um, you know, I'm your messenger, I'm your I'm taking the gospel to the Gentiles. I can't do that from prison, right? And and and so these are examples from from our faith of where God I can't explain it, but but I know that ultimately, even to the fact that we're talking about it right now, Nico, ultimately God has used it not only for their good, but for the good of the kingdom of God for us.

SPEAKER_02 29:27

Well, and there's the whole meta-narrative that goes on that we never think about in our lives. You know, St. Paul in prison probably wasn't thinking about the fact that this was going to show his faithfulness overall. He was in prison. It's hard to think about that when you're there. St. Athanasius in exile. And I mean, that's why at times it was said Saint Athanasius against the world. It seemed like the entire clergy was against him. Right. And he was still bringing forth the truth. And that also makes me think of St. Niktarios. He's betrayed by our clergy. These are bishops, these are men that should, by all accounts, love him. But he's he's put there to show the fact that you can move through that with humility and love and do beautiful things. And he's not even relieved of the the terrible things, the libels that were put on him until after he's passed. Yeah, he lived his whole life with that burden. He died with that. Yeah. And so it, you know, glory to God for all things when we say this, you know, it's it's a beautiful example of the fact that you just don't know what's going on. I mean, I you could you could, God forbid, but it you could die a martyr. And if that actually happens and that's God's will for you, that's beautiful. But on the flip side, you're probably not going to be thinking about all of these things when it's happening to you. I mean you're going to be completely in the dark. Yeah. And that's one of the beautiful things about orthodoxy in general, is the fact that we have the saints, we have these people that you can really have relationships to, and and thank God we have writings that they have in the midst of their suffering, where they're turning around and they're saying, very much like Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane. Let this pass from me if it's possible.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

But if not, your will be done. Yeah. In that moment, that's very human. That's that's how we interact with some of the things that God wills for us. And so we're left with this mess where it is very dark and we're just praying. It's a beautiful example. Even Christ is demonstrating that in the Garden of Gethsemane.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

In the darkness, pray.

Mormon Missionaries Love And Community

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Thank you. I'm gonna I'm gonna tell a quick anecdotal story that I think will be a nice segue as well. Um you mentioned, Nico, how you know we you never know how God is using the present moment, right? Or how God is using you or or or someone else. I spoke to an individual today who uh came out of the Mormon faith. He was raised in the Mormon faith, like tried and true, you know, grandparents, you know, great-grandparents, all the way back. They were all Mormons. And when I tell you, Nico, how this individual came out of the Mormon faith, I think it's gonna shock you in a certain way. Um, although it shouldn't, but I think it might. It wasn't that his brother was went and studied all the, you know, anti-Mormon, the ex-Mormon literature. His brother didn't go and um, you know, uncover all of these things about the early Mormon teachings and you know, polygamy and the the sign of Cain and all these things. His brother never said a word about his Mormonism, but instead his brother is a Christian to him. His brother loved him, his brother was kind and gracious and loving to the family. And this younger Mormon brother saw in his non-Mormon brother the love of Christ, and he said it was seeing that and realizing my brother's not in the Mormon priesthood, he's none of those things, and yet he's demonstrating the love of Christ better than he had seen in any other examples in the Mormon faith. And that Nico brought him out it so then he started looking outside the LDS faith, and then of course, on his own, discovered, you know, a lot of the wacky things that they actually hold to and teach and all these things, and he ended up leaving the LDS faith. And he's he's a Christian right now. How beautiful is that? And and an ex another example of what you were just describing.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

It's it's wonderful that that happens, but it's funny because you said that might surprise me. I actually think that that is the way that atheists come about. That's that's part of my journey. Is like I went to a parish and I thought, oh, I'm not gonna catch on fire when I walk in the door, so might as well go. And my friend's encouraging me to go when we show up, and I'm talking to this priest, his name's Father David. God be with him at all times. But he he's such a beautiful, like grandfatherly like figure. And I'm talking to him about history, and we have a like a two and a half hour conversation, and this man never once tries to persuade me. There's no sales pitch, nothing. We're just having a conversation, he just cares about who I am. And I didn't realize it at the time, but through talking to him continuously, it started to heal things. Wow, I didn't feel as upset about God or Christianity anymore. And I think if you're going to persuade people, and I really believe this because we'll we'll segue into some other things here, but like with LDS, that's important too, because a lot of the way that they come to faith is emotional.

SPEAKER_03 34:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

And so a lot of the things that they install in their faith has much to do with hey, here's the Book of Mormon, here's our presentation. If you don't believe anything or you're critical about this intellectually, pray to God, pray that the Holy Spirit informs you that the Book of Mormon is true. And this is the tagline. That's the one bastion. If they get put on their heel, that's exactly what they'll tell you. And it's gotten to the point now where living where I do, I see missionaries commonly. When they come by, I don't talk to them about theology very often at all. These are men that are 18, 19, 20 years, 20 years old commonly, right? Young men. I didn't even know who I was back then, so I can tell you personally, and it's not an insult at all, I wouldn't take advice from who I'm going to be from an 18-year-old. It's just a bad position to be in if you're getting to be older and you have some wisdom in life. Because I I don't think they know who they are yet. And so I started to think about like, well, I could tell them all these different things. We can go through all these different things, and I could show them. Like, I read James E. Talmudge's The Great Apostasy. I've read things by their church. I encountered them commonly. We could talk about all these things.

SPEAKER_03 36:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

But I was like, yeah, it's probably better to give them some food because that's something that most people don't know. But missionaries are often hungry because they they provide, they pay for their own journey through. And it's expected that the families that are in that area support them. And so they're really doing work based on other people's charity.

SPEAKER_03 36:23

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

And so there's a beauty in that. There's some difficulty and some suffering that's going on there. But for me, it was like I could feed them and I can be kind to them and we can have a non-confrontation. And I know for a fact that they go to some doors and people are excruciatingly hostile to them, especially in this area, because they've had encounters with the church or they grew up that way. And it doesn't help them, it doesn't cause them to want to turn it all. But when they encounter someone, like your friend, who is living this loving life and they seem to be succeeding, it causes them to stop and question because one of the interactions that people have with the LDS God, if you will, is that if you believe and you're living faithfully, you don't encounter suffering. God protects you, God does good things for you. And so many people you'll notice in the upper structure of the LDS church are business owners and things like that. They have monetary, financial gains. And this could go all the way back to what we were talking about before, like people need money within the church and so on and so forth, that you have to run things. But it's not just that. The leaders tend to be people that have become successful. And unfortunately, what I find in this situation is that the people that are inside of the ward that are doing well tend to have this idea that that's because God is blessing them. And so, therefore, if you're the opposite of that, if you're depressed, if you're suffering, if you're if bad things are happening to you, you must have done something against God. And it reminds me of Job because Job has his family recuse him. They tell him, You must have upset God in some way. And Job righteously is saying, No, I haven't done these things. Right. But he's still suffering. And I don't think that you can reconcile that. And so many times you'll see in wards, for example, they'll do fasting, but their their understanding of fasting is not the same as ours. They turn and they fast so that fires stop, or they turn and they fast so that someone can be granted something.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

And no, no insults to them whatsoever. But unfortunately, that turns God into a genie. And that's just not how we understand him.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

100%.

SPEAKER_02 38:36

We're not making a barter with him for these things.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

And so a lot of the things that need to be healed is one seeing that they're endorsed even when they're suffering. And that we understand that, and that their suffering has meaning. I think that's one of the most powerful messages that the that Christ through his church can give to them. But also that they're they're going to have a community in orthodoxy. We actually have people that really love each other. We hang out with each other at fellowship, right? I'm sure you've experienced this.

SPEAKER_03 39:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

To the point that the priest is kicking people out because you know there are other things that they go on throughout the year.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

Yeah. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:14

Go go get together with your friends because clearly you want to be together.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

Nico, I remember when you brought that up on our previous conversation, I and it stuck with me uh this whole time. I've thought about it many, many times. And you had said it was to your thoughts, it was community that was bringing in a lot of these Mormons into the Orthodox Church, much more so, you explained, than any sort of apologetic um or being argued into the faith.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

They need to know that they're loved. And I mean, there's real risk in this. When they when they're leaving, they're leaving their families. Yeah. And God they call it social suicide. Yeah. Social suicide. Yeah. God knows I couldn't ask you to do that. I understand. And so if you get down to the level that you're really human with them, it's the same reason that I'm convinced that I do more for the missionaries by just being a friendly face and not being someone that dejects them rather than trying to talk to them about these things. I wouldn't convert on a mission. What kind of craziness would that be? If you're sent out to do this thing and your whole family has put so much weight into that and they're going to be standing at the airport when you get back with welcome signs, congratulating you on doing a good thing, right? It would be really, really hard to turn and say no. And so, like, I don't expect people, I you know, because I I think that's a thing with an orthodoxy, and it's something that I fear. I'm not going to judge you that way because I'm afraid that God will give me that trial and I'm going to fail. I know that I'm not that good. Right. And so when we get to these things, it's like, I can't imagine asking you to leave your whole family. I wouldn't advise that for you. These are things that I really believe to be true. But I know what I'm asking, and I don't take that lightly.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

And so it is. It's a lot of love. It's a lot of if you want to bring them out and you want to turn them around, because their their initial crux, I would argue, is not intellectual. It's not academic.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

No, no. Nico, I want to, I want to uh press on this. I want to I want to play uh dev devil's advocate a little bit here. Um, you know, but Nico, what you're proposing, um, you know, it sounds to me like you're not preaching the gospel to them. And uh, you know, are aren't you abdicating your responsibility uh to let them know, you know, that Christ died for their sins? And, you know, um the way you're you know, what if this young man that you know you offered dinner to and whatnot, you know, he could die on his on his on his trip and never make it home to have the opportunity. In other words, you're taking the slow approach, Nico, and you know, God expects us to be bold and and take action.

SPEAKER_02 42:05

Yeah, I mean, that that is a huge concern because all of us in our purviews we've been talking about, we think that we know. And so we we push for these things and we say it has to be done now. But I don't, I simply don't know God's timing. Amen. And so I can't imagine trying to do because what if it's the opposite thing? I better pray about it because I'm not gonna know. What if the thing that I do to them pushes them further away from orthodoxy than they've ever been before? Right, right. And so you you're taking a gamble. All of life is a risk. Amen. And so the only way, the only way is God. That's the only way we're gonna know. And the only way we get in touch with them is prayer, right? And we live closer to him through the sacraments. And so I better have my life all sorts of in line before I go to someone and tell them they they better get this right right now. Yeah. And I I'm more afraid of that now in life than I was before. And and God bless the people that do that because they are well-intentioned. I understand the people that have the fervent things that they want to come and just corner you and show you how crazy you are and how wrong you are. Totally get it, totally get it. But the way that I came to orthodoxy, my experience of God was so subtle. It was never just like it, it wasn't like a okay, Eureka, boom, I'm there. It was, oh, this little thing seems a little right. And this little thing seems a little right. And then over the course of about a year and a half, well, uh, all this is starting to make sense. Right. I'm I'm praying and things are not going better for me, but I feel better about what's happening. And I feel safe and I feel secure when I'm visiting my parish, and I can go to the liturgy, and for some reason I can actually forget about the things that are going on around me. And I I find some solace in this. And I'm finding catharsis in admitting the fact that I'm wrong about many of these things. And it really is beautiful that you're not ultimately responsible for that. Because my one big thing, when uh as you well know, Protestants have this tactic of saying, but now, but now you need to push now, you need to give the gospel now. I always say, Well, if they have a God and an omnipotent, omniscient God who loves them, who would I be in comparison to that? Nothing. Nothing, not even sand. So hopefully, if that's the case, I'm in the right position to let God use me in the way that I need to be used. Amen. But that's it. But most of the time, I think we're actually at a larger threat of getting in the way than we are of helping.

Parish Growth Kids And Noisy Liturgy

SPEAKER_01 44:44

100%. Nico, and and and dare I say it, uh, the the words aren't mine. Uh, you know, someone much wiser uh said it. But I think perhaps you were preaching the gospel, in fact. Um as it's sometimes said, you were preaching the gospel, and and if you had to, you'd use words too, you know, uh that concept. And I I believe that wholeheartedly. Um so yeah, thank you for sharing that. Um your parish, Nico, the last time you and I spoke, it it sounds like very similar to the parish I attend, uh St. Anthony the Great here in San Diego. We right now, as of yesterday or two days ago, uh no, yeah, yesterday was Sunday. We have 62 catechumens, my brother. 62 catechumens. Many of them, of course, are young men. That trend still continues, a lot of young men, but we're seeing families, and of course, there are also some women uh as well that are starting to trickle in. Um, it's a beautiful thing to see. Talk to us how how is your parish? How are things going? What are you seeing on the ground, if you will?

SPEAKER_02 46:02

I am joyfully and woefully dismayed by the number of people that we have coming in just because I can't know them all. I used to, when they show up, I could, you know, interact, and now I have to spend budget time. You know, I've got older friends and newer friends and we're trying to do all these different things. And I'm like, this is so beautiful because you know, now I I better start raising up good godsons because they're gonna need to do the things that I'm trying to do, and hopefully they can. And so it's this whole push of like, I can't solve this problem alone. I actually have to really be involved in the fabric of the body now. Like, we we really have to, those of us that have a little bit of knowledge, you know, have to continue to share that so that we can uh distribute this because it I mean, there's so much, there's so much, and it's so beautiful, glory to God, because they're just coming in so fast, you know. And God forgive me, but I have to give my priest a terrible time because I'm like, you know, we got pews, do we gotta move them to the outside and you know, clear space, and it'll solve the problem right away, you know.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

100.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

We're we're not even we're now yeah, we're now at the level where this is a requirement. We're really gonna have to start thinking about it. It's not a joke anymore.

SPEAKER_01 47:10

Yes, yes. Nico, 100%. Sorry, continue.

SPEAKER_02 47:15

Yeah, but got God's provided the ammunition now. I'm like, all right, we're getting so big, we gotta do something right.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

Yeah, yeah. Love that, love it. We we have exactly the same issue because you know, we're not a huge parish, right? And even our our temple, the building itself, it's not, you know, gigantic by any stretch. I think it can hold something like 450 people, you know, according to fire code or something like that. Of course. We have pews, and I will tell you, it Father John, our priest, he made a kind of a joke about it even on Sunday. He said he was thanking the congregation. He was like, so many of you guys are showing up for matins, you know, which is the prayer service early that leads into the divine liturgy. And he says, Well, he's like, I know you're coming early because you're trying to get a seat. He goes, but I'm good, I'm grateful that you're coming early, anyways. You know, he was he was, of course, jesting.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

But proof proof that sometimes God works in a different way than we thought.

SPEAKER_01 48:11

Yeah, you're right, exactly, exactly right. Um, but we, you know, we do, we have pews, and and um, you know, we have many, many, many times talked about, hey, if we even just the middle section, we keep them on the outside, but in the middle section, it would free up. We could probably have an another whole third of people that could fit in there. Um, so we'll see. We'll see what God is is doing.

SPEAKER_02 48:36

Um well and I'm on that note, real quick, if I can, Jeremy. Please. But um on that note, I I do think that there's something beautifully messy about everyone standing on the floor and having to get used to each other and actually really being near each other. And as a parent, I really love when my daughter can go and be cornered with the rest of the children and the rest of the parents. There's this beautiful conglomeration that happens in the corners of the nave where you know the the children are being kept, and there's so many different parents watching out for all of the children. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:07

It's a real example of, you know, as we pray that you know we can get forget about the worldly cares, that there are still all of these things present that are trying to distract us, and we're really trying to learn how to pray so that they don't anymore. Right. And so those those conflicts, that that suffering that gets brought to us again is a beautiful illustration of like how how small we are and how much humility we have to have in that approach. And I love it when it happens in the knave. I have a theory that people are really who they are in the knave, like that you'll see the expressions of who they are in the knave. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

That that that's great, Nico.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

Um yeah, it's it is uh liturgy is is the work of the people, right? And I when I see the parents who are, you know, and it's I'm sure for them it's always at the most inopportune time, the screaming toddler, and they, you know, over the shoulder and walking back to, you know, to our, we have a cry room in the back of, you know, that type of thing. Your heart goes out for them. But like you said, that's part of that struggle. But it's also, there's also such a beauty. Um I don't remember who it was who commented on it, but uh, it might have been Father Josiah Trenham. But just that beauty of how in the midst of the liturgy, to hear the cries and the sounds of the next generation of Christians who are going to be carrying on the faith for us. And what a wonderful thing that is. Um, and and to experience that. I I could never imagine going back to that idea, you know, that I was raised in, which is kids go to Sunday school. It's like we would walk in the church, parents went to the main sanctuary, and kids were shuttled off to the Sunday school, which is most of the time we'd sit there and we would just play a game or color or something.

SPEAKER_02 51:00

As though they were somehow separate from the things that are supposed to be occurring in the church.

SPEAKER_01 51:04

Right, exactly. Well, and and think, Nico, I'm sure you've seen it yourself. How many of the children it blows me away because they're so young, but they they they're already attempting to cross themselves. And and there's we've even seen um they'll some of the younger boys they will pretend like sensing because of course they you know they're beautiful beautiful. They want to mimic the priests that they see and the deacons around them, you know, and it's that kind of thing you're you're missing out on completely if you're sending the kids off to, like you said, as if they're not part of the body of Christ.

SPEAKER_02 51:42

A little bit of a little bit of a rabbit trail, but recently someone donated a small icon stand right next to the icons that come in in the narthex so that the children can venerate. Oh, that's cool. And it is such a beautiful thing. Yeah, just seeing that it's funny, but like the children lead the faith in a lot of ways because they have such a pure perception of what that is, and they just do these things, they don't understand them. And that's another way that we could talk about, but going way back to what we were talking about before, it's an it's an affront to the idea that it's intellectual, right? But it's beautiful, it's beautiful because you you do that because you wouldn't deny your children food until they understood it. It's good for them, and you know that innately, and they even know that in a real way. So of course you're gonna give it to them. Of course they should be involved with it.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

Yeah. I I Nico, you know, we're me and my wife were we're not blessed yet, you know, um uh with children, but we of course we, you know, do hope and pray um that that you know is in our future. Um but dear friends of ours um who have recently come to the Orthodox faith, they're new converts, uh, and they have families and they've they have shared their stories, and it's so beautiful of how some of their first interactions with orthodoxy, where they were kind of themselves as parents, they were like looking around like, oh, what's going on here? You know, people are kissing things, and and and they described how their children, naturally, as if it's the most natural thing in the world, began to emulate those things. Mommy, daddy, I want to kiss the icon, right? These types of things, and how they saw that in their children, um, and how instrumental that is. One of my favorites is uh James St. Simon, who's often part of our team here with Kata Witnesses. Uh, he has young children, and he says sometimes even he himself, he gets a headache and he's like, Oh, hey, honey, you know, can you get me a Tylenol or something? You know, I've got a headache. And one of his sons uh would say, Dad, well, why don't you pray? And he'd be like, Oh yeah, good point.

SPEAKER_00 53:53

So beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 53:54

I love that because my daughter, for the longest time, because she was, thank God, born into the church. And so, you know, she doesn't, she's not a convert like me, she's cradle. And she, for the longest time, whenever she used to see a book of any kind, because she saw enough prayer, she would always think that the book was a prayer book and therefore it was liturgical in manner. And so she would take little pamphlets and little coloring books and open them up and immediately be, and then she at the time couldn't speak very well, but she would always say hello, father, because she thought that's what the beginning of the prayers were. That's great. And there's there's nothing, there's nothing like that as a as a as a parent. I bet.

Readers Clergy And Caution For Zeal

SPEAKER_01 54:36

That's that's beautiful, Nico. Beautiful. Um you mentioned um the cherubic hymn earlier. Um you're a reader, correct?

SPEAKER_02 54:48

That is correct, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:49

Amen. Amen. Um, have has there been, we've talked about the growth of the church, and I know certainly at St. Anthony's, um, there is a very real call uh to, you know, particularly young young men, um, to hey, are you interested in becoming a subdeacon or a reader? You know, the there's so many ministries um that that you can be involved in. Have have you been getting uh tugged and pulled in certain ways?

SPEAKER_02 55:22

Yeah, I am so torn on that, Jeremy, because there's there's the side of me that we need we need clergy. Yeah. We really do in America. We we have a dramatic shortage right now, and we have so many people coming in, glory to God. And I know that God will provide a way for these things to happen. So I don't worry, I'm not anxious about it. But also there's the other side where I'm like, whoa, you're asking so much, and I don't want to ask you again. It's the same thing as with the LDS missionaries, let alone our brothers in the church. I'm like, I don't want to ask you to push in that direction, especially because it's like some some younger men, and God forgive me, but they express these things where they'll go, they'll go, Well, if marriage doesn't work out, I'll I'll join the monastic life. Yes, and they say this very casually. And I'm like, I'm like, that would be like saying in my mind, I can't run two miles, but I'm gonna join the special forces. And I'm like, I don't, I don't really know if that computes with my knowledge in life. Like, I don't know if you can do that because 100%. You're kind of pretending, and I mean Saint Paissius addresses this, may he pray for us, but Saint Paisios addresses this and his and says, you know, a good married man would make a good monk, a good monk would make a good married man. The important part is that you're good. We're we're striving to do these things, but you can't just pretend like monasticism is not the equal to marriage, if not much harder. I mean, as one who's experienced that, you know, I would say that it's much more difficult. And God, I wasn't even fit for marriage. So, you know, there's there's a whole mess to be had there. And so, yeah, I I totally see the young men coming in and and God bless them and keep them zealous because that that is such a beautiful thing to be involved in. But on the other side, there's the other half of me that says caution, you know, you're just you're asking for a lot. And that's some advice that I give my godsons is hey, you know, we we make these long, lofty lists and we look up to all these theological things and we measure ourselves by all these intense things. But it's like probably start again with the basics, right? You know, amen. Hey, hey, lead a prayer life, but on top of that, exercise, let's let's start doing that and let's let's get a stable job and hopefully God will help you point that towards a career, and let's be able to provide for people and let's be strong enough to protect them. You know, let's do the simple things, you don't need to be everything right now.

Apostolic Succession And God Working Through People

SPEAKER_01 57:46

Amen, Nico. Thank you for repeating that. And it's I hope it's the theme of this podcast episode. So, so there I was, Nico. Um, the congregation were there in church. And Bishop Anthony, who is a bishop in the Antiochian Orthodox Church, to see in your presence not that he's you know some great, amazing holy man, which he is, thanks be to God, but not even to speak on that. This is a man who has been directly ordained into the line that goes all the way back to Peter and to Paul and to Andrew and to the to the apostles in an unbroken succession. How amazing is that to be part of a church that can actually make that claim. Can you speak to that at all, Nico?

SPEAKER_02 58:53

You know, in in Peter it talks about that we will become partakers of the divine nature. And I don't think there's many things theologically that can be said around that. That's so important. But the fact that God in the incarnation saw fit to come down to us, to condescend to us, amen. Is the example of the fact that he uses us, he wants us to be in synergy with him, that he wants us to be his co-workers. And it's a tremendous privilege that we have that. It's the privilege, if you will. And I think a lot of people in the Protestant sphere fear that we we we glorify men, that we glorify men, and it's it's so misunderstood because it's like, well, no, no, we all understand that hopefully that the light that's coming through these people is the light of Christ.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 59:50

It's not it's it's not the individual. And so when we talk about a lineage, that's a good example. It's something that's coming down from the high priest, it's something that's coming down from Christ Himself. And it's the great mystery as to why he even saw fit to do it, right? But he did, he did, he ordained these things. And so, really, thank God that we still have men that are following in that line that have received that. And they really do, they receive it. And I would challenge anyone to go and see a bishop because they very obviously have received these things, and there's something special about going to a monastery and feeling that presence, and they themselves will acknowledge that it's not them. And so there's a there's a whole conversation to be had around that that has nothing to do with this idea that we glorify men, but much rather that we have been glorified and that we see the image of God in these men, that we feel Christ through them. And that's why he ordained it to be this way. In apologetics, I joke about this all the time. The books are not God one, God two, God three. They're Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Well said. Yes. He brought it to us through men. Yes. To give us examples and leaders. And Saint Paul admonishes you to follow after and remember the people who brought you the faith.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:09

The fact that we get incorporated into that is an honor that we don't deserve, but it's an honor that's given to us nonetheless.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:16

And a responsibility.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:17

Yeah, yeah. And a beautiful, thank you for saying that, because a beautiful responsibility at that. How else would we learn to go back to God? How else would we learn to move to God?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:28

And to be honest with you, that's the funny thing. I'll go back to the fact that God is something to be experienced. You can't argue or grasp Him. It's not that. So when we encounter these things, that's why we don't put such a heavy emphasis on like mankind or anything like that, is because we're seeing Christ through that and he adopted that image. God chose that. We didn't decide on that. It's not up to us. We're just receiving what we've been given, and it's important to center on that because God commands it. Amen. He ordained it to be so. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:02

Out of love, out of love for the love of the world. We recently, um, as you know, Nico, we we had uh Epiphany, and it was such a beautiful, you know, teaching that Orthodox pass on is that Christ, when he was baptized by John the Baptist, Christ had no sin. He was not being baptized because he, you know, for the forgiveness of sins. We see it as Christ was baptized to baptize the water, to baptize, he was sanctifying the water which stood for all creation. So not only in his incarnation, but even in his very act of condescending to even John the Baptist to be baptized to bring about this baptism of the whole world, which is another, you know, beautiful way in which God shows his love for us. Nico, I love how you point it out. God doesn't have to work through us, he chose to work through people like you and me, believe it or not. You know, when I when I'm when I get out of the way enough, you know, um, thanks be to God. But but Nico, that is the amazing mystery and beauty of the Christian faith. Um, is that this is all meaningful. It's for a purpose. God is working through us. If you so align yourself, you mentioned the synergy, right? Cooperating with God, cooperating with the Holy Spirit, you have a choice to make every day. You know, I I always go back to in Revelation where Christ says, Behold, I stand at the door and knock. For so many years, I thought that was a verse talking to non-Christians, like, hey, non-Christians, become a Christian. Oh, he's talking to the church, he's talking to, he's talking to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:05

And so much more so us, because you have the treasure. And that's that's the thing that people don't like. We walk around and we they say, Well, you know, Orthodox are so proud you guys are trying to convince us of all these things, and it's like, actually, I'm probably far more condemned than you are in some ways, because I have all of these things that I'm just hoarding up to myself and that I'm I'm not expressing well, and things that I could be participating in. And I claim to know, I claim to know. And that's such a a wild thing. But I mean, you're talking about Christ being baptized, he also becomes beholden to his own priesthood. God is demonstrating a choice, and he's doing that in his human nature, he's showing us the way that the choice that we have, but he also respects our choice, and God only knows why that's the case. I mean, sometimes that's the complaint on the outside is like, well, why would God let me choose evil? And it's like, well, because he respects your choice, he he he has created this opportunity for you, right? And he really does love you in such a way that he does respect your choice, and we can choose to do terrible things, and we do. Yeah, and we do. But hopefully, God willing, we can end up in a circumstance where that's not the case anymore and we're moving towards God. But you really do have a choice, and so that's the difficult part is you know, going all the way back when we're talking about apologetics. God didn't take away your choice. Who would I be to try and force you or coerce you to do anything else? Like that would be that would seem silly. And sometimes from my my parenting, you would think that it it seems to be the loving thing to do, to wreck defense, so that you know you can stay in this nice clean box. And I think we talked about this last time, but I don't think about it that way. Because my daughter at some point in her life will come to odds with orthodoxy, and she'll come to odds with her thoughts about the world.

unknown 1:05:59

And

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

And it's a necessity. She needs to do that. You need to challenge those things. And I don't have any shame whatsoever that that was the way that I came through. I have difficulty with the things that I did during that time period because even then I knew that they weren't right. But on the on that same token, you still have to suffer and challenge and fight through all those things because otherwise it's not real to you and you're not adopting it for yourself. You're just going off of something that someone else has said. And so there's real value in having that encounter. And I don't think we ever get away. God doesn't seem to let us get away without having that challenge and that suffering.

Lent Advice And Where To Connect

SPEAKER_01 1:06:36

100%. 100%. And thanks be to God for it. The myth. Nico, we're by the time this episode uh is released, we'll be, believe it or not, we're gonna be on the doorstep of Lent. Um so to close us out today, Nico, I want to give you the last word. What what are your thoughts going into this 2026? Um, what are your advice for someone listening right now, maybe who is a new Orthodox Christian, or maybe an inquirer or catechumen, or maybe just kind of curious about orthodoxy in general?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:16

I think coming in, I think because we we had a conversation about maybe talking about this today, but there's lots of things that seem kind of rough and stringent and rigid inside of orthodoxy. That's all true. The wall is there, but it's there for a good reason. But it's not enforced on you in a way that you think that it is. When you're coming in, God is so gentle and it's so beautiful the way that He brings us around. And so if you're coming in, there are many things that are given to you as protections, and you're gonna want to outrun them, essentially. You're gonna want to try and exceed the boundaries. Don't do that. Be okay with the fact that your priest says, hey, you don't have to really do Lent this time around. You know, participate as you can and really try and be as involved as you can be, but only to the level that you realistically can. And be honest with yourself, be self-critical and say, I'm I might not be able to do this well, or I've become too obsessed if you find yourself rattling through the ingredients on a bottle to finitely define whether or not there might be a dairy product in there to some percentage. You probably lost the goal at that point. I feel pretty comfortable saying that. But on the flip side, if you are Orthodox, we're already there. We we have to challenge ourselves to fight that fight and to be really serious about it. And we still have that grace, but at the same time, we could be a little zealous. I mean, what else are you doing in your life that you especially as a man that's challenging you enough that you can lean into it that hard? I mean, we do so many things. Uh, like myself, I've gone on an exercise journey recently. I've been going to the gym a lot and all this other stuff and really trying to challenge myself there. But if you really want a purposeful challenge, go into land hard, put be be a little zealous about it and really strive to do those things well because we're we're we're supposed to be enlisted now, we're fighting the fight. All those who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:08

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:09

Let's let's go to war a little bit for him and it really drive at that. And so you get both sides of the coin. Take your grace where you're allowed it, but also if you've been given that grace already, let's let's share it. Let's not hoard up treasure.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:25

Amen, Nico. Um thank you so much uh for for the your time this evening. Um, I I I thanks be to God for you and and for your and and just that wish God's blessing upon you. I wish you many years, my brother. Um, it's a true honor uh to call you my friend, Nico, and uh um I know that this will be a blessing. Uh and may God use this conversation today uh to his kingdom uh and to edify others. Um if people wanted to reach out to you, Nico, uh, and find you, how would you want them to do that?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:01

Um right now, I would say Ghost of Byzantium server, which you've already pitched a few times, would be a great way to do that. I'm pretty active on there. Amen. You also get a whole bunch of resources from a whole bunch of people that are very interested in orthodoxy and are new and coming into it and struggling with the whole thing. And that's the area of like, hey, no, no really silly questions. Sometimes we grit our teeth a little bit, but you know, we'll we'll deal with whatever comes along and answer whatever questions come. And it's also an area where you have some people that have have recently converted, and so there's lots of knowledge base there for that as well, and you can get some experience and just really actually have a community. So it'd be a good place to go for that.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:44

Amen. I cannot uh overstate what Nico just said there. You may want to know if you're listening right now, every Cloud of Witnesses uh YouTube video that that is a full form video. We link to that Discord server, uh, the Ghost of Byzantium. Um so in this video right here, please go down there right now, click on that Discord link. Um Nico is is one of the moderators um and one of the contributors to what I know is a really great community of people. As Nico was saying, there's a lot you can ask questions and get really solid answers. Um and so just truly uh honored to be happy, or excuse me, to be to be supporting that ministry. Uh and and next time, Nico, you're interacting with them, please uh give David my love. Of course, of course.