Thinking About Visiting an Orthodox Church? Start Here: Why People Are Leaving Modern Churches

A pastor told her to try AA (alcoholics anonymous) when she asked for spiritual help after a miscarriage. That moment pushed her to look for something deeper – see what she found.

A lot of people aren’t leaving church because they “don’t believe” anymore. They’re leaving because they feel spiritually hungry, tired of being sold a vibe, and unsure where to take real grief, real sin, and real questions.

Cloud of Witnesses talks with Lavender of Lavender & Lanterns (https://www.instagram.com/lavenderandlanterns/) about the hunger for humility and reverence that pushes many Christians from non-denominational life toward Orthodox Christianity. We compare performance-style worship with the Orthodox Divine Liturgy, then get practical about visiting a parish, speaking with a priest, and learning the faith through lived tradition.
 
 • moving from early faith in pregnancy to searching for deeper roots
 • why emotional worship and corporate church culture can feel spiritually thin
 • leaving churches that center politics and branding over Christ
 • grief after miscarriage and the need for pastoral care that is truly spiritual
 • the value of trained Orthodox clergy and the simple step of calling a priest
 • humility as a practice through confession and Forgiveness Sunday at Lent
 • reverence in worship and the question of when church became a show
 • first-time guidance for visitors including Vespers, coffee hour, and what to wear
 • women finding Orthodoxy online and questions about head coverings
 
 We sit down with Lavender to talk about her path from a non-denominational background to Orthodox Christianity, and why reverent worship in the Eastern Orthodox Church felt like water in the desert. We get honest about the modern church experience: emotional hype, stage culture, screens and slogans, even politics bleeding into the sanctuary. Jeremy shares why these trends can quietly push people toward a tradition that refuses to treat worship like a product and instead forms people through prayer, repentance, and the stability of the Divine Liturgy.
 
 Lavender also shares a painful turning point after a miscarriage, when she tried to seek spiritual counsel and felt redirected toward something purely “programmatic” instead of Scripture-soaked guidance and healing. From there we talk about why Orthodox priests are trained for long-term pastoral care, why “talk to a priest” is not a slogan but a lifeline, and how practices like confession and Forgiveness Sunday cultivate humility in a way that’s hard to fake. We also cover practical “come and see” advice for first-time visitors, plus common questions women ask about modest dress and head coverings.

Why do so many people feel modern church is more performance than worship? We talk incense, reverence, humility, and the simple advice that changes everything: talk to a priest. 

Questions about Orthodoxy? Please check out our friends at Ghost of Byzantium Discord server: https://discord.gg/JDJDQw6tdh

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Please leave a comment with your thoughts!

Transcript

Craving Humility And Reverence

SPEAKER_00 0:00

With more humility and more reverence, I just absolutely was looking for orthodoxy and I didn't even realize it at the time.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Please do get over the fear. Because I I guarantee you they're gonna surprise you with how normal they are and how they just want to talk with you, right? And they happen to have biblical wisdom as well.

Welcome And How To Support

SPEAKER_00 0:20

A lot of women who message me I have a lot of women who message me saying that they're glad they came across my channel, they're homeschooling stay-at-home moms too, and they're they're leaning more towards orthodoxy. And I it's such a glory to God moment because that is the entire point of my my my content and being as both my parents grew up Catholic, they kind of instilled that in me. So once I found out about orthodoxy, I had to look into it, and everything I each door I opened made me realize how much I needed it in my life.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Hi, welcome to Cloud of Witnesses. Jeremy Jeremiah here. We produce Christian content that we hope is edifying and building the kingdom of Jesus Christ. Please stick around. If you are interested in hearing more, hit that subscribe button. You'll be notified every time new content's coming your way. If you like this, hit that like button. Hitting that bell as well always helps more people find this content. This episode is for you. We hope to see you at the end. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

So I decided to ask God in my life when I was pregnant with my first. And um, I was going through a rough time. You know, first pregnancy, I was pretty young. And um I slowly eased into accepting the faith. And then my husband and I joined a Protestant church, non-denominational.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

So we went from there, and my husband just he's he's he's very masculine, and he noticed that within Protestant churches, it's very feminized. I don't want to sound like condescending in any way, but it is just very centered in emotion and feelings. And I think that's why most men are leaning towards orthodoxy because it's it's definitely more reverent, it follows the traditions, it's it's not modernized. And I think that a lot of people search for that.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Amen. It's 100%. You know, um, Lavender recently, um, Cloud of Witnesses, we've we've posted a couple of videos. One was this um this young lady, um, and you know, it was it was sweet. You know, she's a you can tell she's a non-denominational, you know, evangelical young lady who's taking her atheist father to her church for the first time, or maybe the first time.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Oh yes, I did see that, yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

And I think it's so fascinating because you know, you I'm glad you saw it because you know, he was, you could tell he's you know, he's a man, you know, he's got the beard, and you know, he it was kind of he seemed like kind of like a no-nonsense kind of guy. And she takes him to her church, and I like I said, greatest of intentions, I'm sure. And I obviously it's wonderful. I hope that man does come to Christ. Right. But there he was standing there, and I could I feel like, and you tell me uh because you saw it as well, he seemed just kind of uncomfortable. He's standing there and on stage, it's hard to see because I know the videos are small, but on stage, there were like five or six worship leaders, lavender, they were all women. And and here's the thing obviously, there's nothing wrong with women singing. Right, you know, women are a big part of our choir at our parish. I mean, right that that's not the point, but rather the songs are you know all coming from these female voices, the songs, as we know in Protestantism, many of them in that kind of modern contemporary, you know, uh environment, they tend to be kind of the Jesus is my boyfriend type stuff, yeah. That emotionalism you were referring to. And I just don't think you could see him connecting to any of it. And I don't know how he could connect to any of it. I didn't when I was a Protestant. The church that you and your husband were attending, um what what was it like?

SPEAKER_00 4:32

It was, you know, they all start, they all start the same. Um, but it was very emotional, emotionally centered for sure. And I know many Protestant churches can be different in that sense. Some are more traditional, whereas others are very modernized and very mega church feel with stages, like a big stage lights, smoke machine, right? You know, acrobatics. I mean, we've seen a lot of crazy stuff on on the internet. Um, but this one was um there was lights, you know, there's a screen that shows you the lyrics where you can sing along. And advertisements. I mean, I understand that they want to help the community, but it just seemed very corporate, if if that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

They had advertisements? Wow. Like what kind of advertisements?

SPEAKER_00 5:25

It it seemed like they were following some type of a narrative. Like they were, they were given this in you know, a sense to show their their parish so that they can get certain people to follow a certain narrative or a certain ideal and then give their money to something. It it just it seemed very sus.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Can you tell us that that story?

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Yeah, I I really loved it. I it definitely fed me. I think it fed more in my ego than spiritually. But um, my husband, he started seeing red flags everywhere. And yeah. And we decided to continue going. We gave it the benefit benefit of the doubt. And then the the pastor brought up politics and a lot of worldly issues, which you know is necessary to talk about, but I don't think it's something that should be brought into God's house. God's house is supposed to be centered around Christ, not about the world and the issues going on around it. It's yeah, it's not like we're being arrogant or ignorant to this information, it's that we are not allowing the information to enter in. It it just seems to be, you know, it's centered around that, and it just didn't, it didn't resonate well with us.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

And um we I my husband met with the pastor and they they spoke a little bit. We didn't we didn't last very long at this church. It it it took a while for for us to feel comfortable. But um, yeah, he met with the pastor and he seems like a really nice guy, but they I I don't know if they're necessarily in it to fully be in Christ. I think that they focus around their needs and their, you know, what they what they need for, you know, whatever whatever pays the bills, basically.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Wow. Almost like a business, like they're running a business.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Wow. Yeah, whatever, whatever gets more people, whatever gets the most views, if you will. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Yeah. So we left.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

So so I'm so sorry. And I'm not gonna ask you to call them out at all. Yeah. Um so don't say them by name, but I'm just but I want to know, I'm curious, does this does this church does it have like a Instagram page or are they kind of social media active?

SPEAKER_00 8:11

I don't think so. Okay. It's been a while. I think they do have an Instagram and Facebook page, and the pastor certainly does have a Facebook page that he um definitely puts his opinions on one of, but I I don't I don't know. I it's they probably do. I haven't followed it in a long time. This was probably 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Okay, so it's basically 11, 12 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

Yeah, my husband, he he I I before I came to Orthodoxy, I was a part of a different Protestant church, which we can get into as well. Oh well. But um it just turned him off. He was over it, like he really wanted to get closer to God and it didn't feed him spiritually, and he just kind of pushed that aside. He does believe in God, he's he he considers himself a Christian, yeah, but he just it didn't it didn't work well for him and he didn't find any anything out of it, unfortunately.

Miscarriage Grief And Unmet Spiritual Care

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Now these are very short, um, but talk us through this. What what do you what are you doing in this video?

SPEAKER_00 9:29

I went to it with a lot of questions. Um and I I I was hungry. I I needed to be fed spiritually, and I just wasn't getting that. And any chance I would talk to my pastor about, you know, any the questions that I had, he would try to direct me elsewhere, it seemed like he it wasn't something that he wanted to help me with.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Interesting.

unknown 9:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

So when you say direct you elsewhere, do you mean like he would kind of want to just change the topic? Or or what do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 10:01

I'm gonna get a little personal here, but I I suffered with a drinking problem after my miscarriage. Um, and I I I wanted to kind of in a way confess to him like what was going on. And he directed me, well, have you been to AA? Which is a fine question.

unknown 10:22

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

But I wasn't it wasn't what I was looking for. I wasn't looking for Alcoholics Anonymous. I could have done that myself. I I wanted him to point me to scripture, something that would be more spiritually driven versus worldly. And we were looking for real healing, yeah. Yeah. And it didn't seem like he was interested in helping me, unfortunately. He he may have just been busy at the moment, I don't know. But he was a great, he's a great guy, and I and I love him so very dearly because I see his love for Christ, but he's a very I I think he lets pride get in the way, and you know, we all do. I mean, I'm not perfect, nobody is, but I think that was something that got in the way of it, and I saw that, and I needed something more with more humility and more reverence. I just absolutely was looking for orthodoxy and I didn't even realize it at the time.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

What that church that you were just describing, was that also kind of a excuse me, typical non-denominational evangelical church, or was uh specifically non-denominational, yes, but um it's the one of the churches of Nazarene. I'm not quite sure how to phrase it, but yeah.

Why Orthodox Priests Are Different

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Okay. Yeah, I grew up around the corner from a church of the Nazarene. Um interesting. Yeah, they they are there. I mean, I think, I think technically it's a denomination. Um, they're a little more strict on their um what they eat and whatnot. Uh, I'm not sure if that was a topic ever discussed, but that that is, it's very interesting. Um it makes me wonder, you know, you mentioned he's a really nice guy and has a heart for God, and I've got no doubt about any of that. It genuinely makes me wonder, Lavender, if he even really had the skills to help in a in a spiritual way. And and I I say that not as an attack on him personally, but but as a commentary on the state of far too many um non-denominational churches. I don't know if he had to go even to um seminary or if he was ever trained I don't know, maybe he did, maybe he was educated. Yeah, but you know, I don't know if he was ever trained as a pastor, you know, to to handle some of these things. You hope so. Right. But it's it's only within orthodoxy, you know, you have not only, you know, the rigor that priests do have to go through, right? There is a process you have to be orthodox for um a number of years as a minimum. Uh, you have to go to seminary. There's, you know, because it's such a long and storied um history, there's all the rubrics and the hymnology, and and there's so much goes into it, um, including um education um and experience on how to talk to people, how to be with people through their challenges. Um and I just don't know if that same thing is happening um in many non-denominational Protestant circles. Um Lavender, you know, one thing we say a lot as Orthodox Christians is, you know, go talk to a priest.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

You know, and I want to say that here now in the sense that what I just said, you know, what you and I are talking about is very real. You know, when you're going to talk to a priest, you're not just going to talk to some Joe Schmoe who decided to start a church because he was charismatic. Yeah. You're going to somebody who has taken on the sacrifice of becoming part of the clergy who has been tauntured, who's been ordained and is brought into this entire profession, you could call it, but really it's this, it's an order, right? It's a clerical order of sacrifice and service to God and to God through people. Um and it's a very special thing. And so I again, I would just like to put out to anyone who's listening to this right now. Um, if you've at all thought, you know, what would it be like to just go and sit down and talk with a priest or even call a priest on the phone? Please do. Please do get over the fear because I guarantee they're going to surprise you with how normal they are uh and and how they just want to talk with you, right? And they happen to have biblical wisdom as well.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Absolutely. I've seen so much humility in in my priest, whereas I find many pastors kind of work in pride a bit more. As hard of a truth that is, it's it's what I have noticed with so many Protestant like pastors, is it's very prideful. And I've seen so much humility within the Orthodox Church and with my priest. He he's probably one of my favorite human beings because he is so humble and it's so refreshing to finally have somebody who is humbling himself as the way Jesus did. And and it's just such a profound feeling, and I'm so grateful to have had the opportunity and to raise my children in that type of environment because it's so needed for this world.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

100%. Lavender, you know, you and I, um, as Orthodox Christians, we um what geez, what was it? Just a couple weeks ago, uh, we experienced Forgiveness Sunday. And you you were just talking about the humility of priests. Now, please understand, you know, the people who are listening right now who might be a little uh antagonistic towards orthodoxy or a little uh reluctant, uh you know, they might be saying, ah, they're you know, they're just they're just priests, right? They're men, they're sinners too. Well, of course, absolutely we're not we're not trying to say that that priests are, you know, all of them are saints uh with a capital S, uh, because of course, you know, there are all kinds of people in the world, and and you know, priests have their struggles too. But there's something to be said for the system of orthodoxy, the calendar, the confessions, the uh practices that bring about by by almost uh you don't have a choice, bring about humility, at least having to act in a humble way. Because I don't know about you, Lavender, but our Forgiveness Sunday, Vespers, it's it's such a beautiful time for those listening who don't know. It's the beginning of Lent, and literally every single person in the entire parish not only asks for forgiveness of their sins to every other person in the entire church, but they are also being asked for their forgiveness. Every single person, and this includes the clergy. And I'm reminded of what you were saying, Lavender. Our priests, you know, they're in all these vestments, they're sweaty, it's heavy. They've already done an entire divine liturgy, they've been there for hours and hours, and there they are doing the the matanya, you know, these it's a it's a bow, uh, you know, showing reverence and respect uh for the person in front of them, for the icon of Christ in front of them. What an amazing thing. What a beautiful thing for for your priest, for my priest to ask you to forgive them. My priest asked me to forgive him. You know, what a what an amazing thing. And and so I just I appreciate you saying that because I do, I just saw uh a video earlier, uh Lavender today, and I don't know if you've seen it yet or not. It's kind of making its rounds. Some non-denominational, probably very charismatic, and I don't even know who it was, but some fairly famous, I would imagine, uh non-denominational pastor, he's leaving the church in a helicopter.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

I don't think I've seen that. Yeah, uh, it's and it's just like you know, it's like those, like we talked about, it's like you should you're sitting there just kind of shaking your head, scratching your head, going, huh. It and and it shows all the the congregations outside, they're all kind of excited to see him, you know, and they're kind of waving goodbye as he gets in the helicopter. Now, you know, please understand, look. Was it maybe a special circumstance? Was it was it maybe one of the parishioners happened to be a helicopter pilot and was like, hey, you want to fly in my helicopter? And he's like, sure. Look, I'm not trying to judge anyone particular, I don't know the situation, but the optics of it is it's quite odd. It's a little sus. It's a little sus.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

It's pretty, yeah. It's a little James Bondy. I don't know, to say the least.

Reverent Worship Versus Performance

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Yeah, very sus. Yeah. Lavender, let's let's look at another um another one of your videos here. Like you to uh comment. Can you read there what the caption what you wrote, Lavender?

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Um it says scripture shows worship filled with reverence, incense, people sacrificing their comfort. So how did we turn it into a performance?

SPEAKER_01 20:41

I love this.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

It's it's it's such a, you know, for people watching right now, I do hope that they will go to your channel and subscribe and um, you know, become part of your your community because this is this is such an important thing here, right? You're you're showing the simple, the simplistic beauty of orthodoxy, of just the humble, you know, uh candles with the with the icons, a place of of reverence, right? A special sacred corner in your home. What was your first exposure to orthodoxy? How did it first come across your radar?

SPEAKER_00 21:21

I was watching a podcast actually, and one of the um guests on the podcast was an Orthodox Christian, and I loved how blunt and honest he was, and he wasn't worried about causing offense, which you know, it's something that I think a lot of us focus on too much is we try to be too soft. And sometimes tough love is necessary, and I know Christ absolutely practiced that when he was here. Um, he showed us humility, but he also showed Showed us how to get a message across with tough love in a way.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

100%. Get behind me, Satan.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Yeah.

First Divine Liturgy And Come And See

SPEAKER_00 22:10

And I think the world really needs that. I think the world really needs to be told when it's wrong. And I don't think that we need to tiptoe around it. And I think that's kind of where a lot of our issues are stemming from, is from people trying to walk on eggshells to be gentle. I didn't know that there was a church as old as the Catholic Church. I thought it was just the Catholic Church. And I always had um I didn't really want to lean towards Catholicism. There was a lot of issues with the with that church, in my opinion. And being as both my parents grew up Catholic, they kind of instilled that in me. So once I found out about orthodoxy, I had to look into it. And everything I each door I opened made me realize how much I needed it in my life. I needed, I needed to know more. And the saints, reading the canons, everything like that, it's just amazing. God Christ lived and he continues to live through the saints. And I just think it's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Talk to us about your first time. When did you make the decision? What was your first? Did you go to Divine Liturgy? Did you go to a Vesper service?

SPEAKER_00 23:33

I had been emailing the parish uh for a couple weeks. I think I started shortly after I started my social media account. And a lot of people were commenting saying, Oh, are you getting spiritual guidance? It's important. I didn't realize this, so immediately I reached out because we only have one parish in my community.

SPEAKER_02 23:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Yeah. And um, it's beautiful. I'm so grateful for it. But I was emailing and I finally decided to go. I was gonna go on a Vesper service because I had heard that's a good one to start off with because it's shorter, it's a prayer service, it's it's pretty quiet, not many people attend. Um, so it's a good time to go and speak with the priest. You get more one-on-one time. But I didn't. I ended up, it was my daughter's birthday, so I was pretty tired afterwards. So my eldest son, who was looking into orthodoxy as well, as soon as we found out about it, which really thought it was pretty interesting, and so we both went and we fell in love. The priest, because it's such a small parish, noticed that we were new. So he asked us to stay for coffee hour, and he immediately came to us right after divine liturgy was over with. And being as I did my research prior to, I had an idea of divine liturgy being as long as it was standing and dressing modestly and everything like that. And I get a lot of messages asking, oh, what what's more appropriate? You know, what can I expect? And I always tell them, the first thing you need to do is come and see. You need to go to church, you need to talk to the priest, don't worry too much about what to wear. Don't think, don't put too much thought into it because it is something that the priest and the and the parish community will help you with. And so we went and we fell in love and have been going ever since. I I can't get over how how beautiful it it is, and to be a part of Forgiveness Sunday and to be there with everybody and to ask for forgiveness and to be forgiven by everybody was just so beautiful. I don't know if everybody does this, but we we hugged and my priest and his family come from the east. So with being a part of that type of culture, it was beautiful to experience it.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Yeah. How awesome! How cool that your son is also is he on his way to becoming Orthodox too?

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Yeah, my kids are all gonna be uh baptized in the first Saturday in May, and I am so excited.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

That is awesome. Thanks be to God. What an amazing thing.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

But I think that we're making it too casual. We're looking to him like just one of the pals, you know, he's one of our friends. He'll accept us no matter what we do, and it's almost taking away his uh authority. He's the king of kings. He he's the most important celestial being out there, and I think it's creator of the universe. Yeah, I think that it's really sad that people don't they're they're they're bringing him down to their level, and it's it's like I said, taking away his authority.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

But I would imagine there's a lot of women that you know view your content, uh orthodox or otherwise. And you said how as a woman you were kind of curious what to wear, or you're asked, you know, what to wear to go to church. And it made me think, you know, it's something men are not gonna worry as much about. Yeah. We talked about how there's so many men coming into the Orthodox Church at present. I think in so many ways, it's it's just easier for men to kind of, because you know, we're kind of more of the solo figure, right? Women tend to do things in groups.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Yeah.

Women Finding Orthodoxy And Head Coverings

SPEAKER_01 28:32

A guy's not gonna be as it's still, you know, it still can be a nervous thing and and take some bravery. But you know, a a man maybe is more likely to just show up by himself on a Saturday night to a Vesper service, or, you know, whereas I think a woman might want a friend to go with or, you know, to feel like, how do I dress? You know, these are questions that that women might ask more than men. Can you talk to us, Lavender, about some of your interactions, you know, with women who are, you know, curious about orthodoxy or you know, maybe even a little uh hostile to orthodoxy. What is it like running your channel and and and interacting with with those who watch your videos?

SPEAKER_00 29:16

I um certainly get a lot of feedback. Uh I have a lot of women who message me say I have a lot of women who message me saying that they're glad they came across my channel. They're homeschooling, stay-at-home moms too, and they're they're leaning more towards orthodoxy. And I uh it's such a glory to God moment because that is the entire point of my my my content and why and why I and why I do what I do is because I I want to bring more women to orthodoxy because it is it's more centered on Christ versus centered on our feelings and ourselves. And that's something that I think women tend to they they focus on that.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

You know, there's an issue, there's a question, there's a a challenge maybe uh for some women um who are coming to orthodoxy when they see that some women are wearing a head covering. Um I I think I've noticed in your videos that you tend to wear a head covering. Um, you know, without obviously it's not about, like you said, it's not about judgment of others. It's you know, people are gonna come uh under the guidance of our priest, you know, in their own spiritual, you know, walk with Christ. Um for you, what has that journey looked like? What what how do you feel when it comes to those um you know practices in the Orthodox Church?

SPEAKER_00 30:52

I think it's beautiful. I have always ever since finding out that women wear head coverings, I because you notice it a lot. I don't know if you watch The Chosen, but a lot of the women in that TV show follow the traditions that were at that time, which is to cover cover your head.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

And I I remember thinking to myself, being a Protestant, why aren't we doing that now? What's changed? Oh well, it's become more modernized, you know. And that's just it. It's become more modernized.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

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