What's the Point of Christopher Nolan's Film The Odyssey?

We wrestle with the moral cost of war through a modern Odyssey lens, especially what it means to see the divine image in people you might be ordered to kill. We ask whether “necessary” violence can ever be clean, and why the ones who protect everyone else often carry scars the rest of us never have to bear. 

• Athena’s beheading as a symbol of desecration and conscience 
• war as ugly even when defense feels necessary 
• Zeus’s law of hospitality set against survival and self-defense 
• the fog of war and our limited moral vision 
• Plato’s Euthyphro as a test for confident moral claims 
• the “dark knight” role and taking blame for the public good 
• Oppenheimer parallels and the burden of consequential choices 
• film critique on flattened characters while still recommending it 
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Transcript

Seeing The Divine In War

SPEAKER_03 0:00

What we can take in that is seeing the divine in people and how difficult that makes a decision like going to war, like dropping an A-bomb, like um um, you know, possibly taking a life to save a life and the toll that that takes on you.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

You know, because they're talking all throughout like Zeus's law. We've you know violated Zeus's law of like you know, being hospitable to strangers. It could be a god in disguise and all this. But then also just the necessity of having sometimes having to fight wars and defend yourself.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

You know, ultimately, is this a perfect film in my opinion? No, not at all. Far from it. Um, but is it worth seeing? For the reasons you were saying that earlier, Mike, there's a lot to be taken from this film. There's a lot that you can learn from this film. Um, I think it is worth seeing, and I do recommend it.

Welcome And Why We’re Here

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Hey, welcome to Cloud of Witnesses. Jeremy Jeremiah here. We're really excited about this episode. This episode is created with you in mind. Please, if you're enjoying this content, give this video a like, hit that subscribe button, and most importantly, if you can, ring that bell. It does help others find this content as well. Cloud of Witnesses is all about making Christian content that you know is hopefully edifying to you and is building up the kingdom of God. Please stick around to the end if you can. Thank you so much for being here. Enjoy.

Athena’s Beheading And Moral Cost

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Can we talk about Athena and the what in some ways you might say was the the the downfall um of what? Humanity, of or the realization of our own fallenness and and um and again when this episode's filled with spoilers, so I guess it doesn't matter. We'll come we'll come to see Athena is depicted as this tragic woman, temple priestess, young virgin woman who is ultimately beheaded. Right during the sack of Troy, she is killed. And at the same moment, you see the statue of Athena, and it is also beheaded, and the the head comes off the statue, the the idol. Um can you guys reflect on you know that moment maybe, or what do you see as what was the the hide point of this film from a moral or a um kind of here's Nolan's point? What do you guys see?

SPEAKER_03 2:32

I think it's that war is is always ugly, you know, and kind of to Mike's point, because I I agree, and I think it works very well with especially in the dark night, because there's that whole uh um phrase that they always repeat about Batman being the hero that Gotham needs, not the one it deserves, right? They say it so many times, uh, because like they're like, if you want to know what the thesis is of this of this trilogy, he is a hero that Gotham needs, but not the one it deserves, right? The dark knight um who has to kind of put on the darkness for the sake of everybody else. Um and I think what what the Odyssey is is trying to capture is at what cost, but someone has to pay that price, and what was it worth it in the end? Um and I think that Athena being beheaded and him seeing how she becomes that representation, and it's not very clear if that it's not very clear if that was him projecting in his mind them cutting the head of Athena off was like uh then he sees if like in a vision Athena being beheaded before them, or if a woman who was beheaded then became the projection of Athena and his consciousness. Like that's that's where I think the humanist kind of Christopher Nolan's humanism kind of getting in there. But what we can take in that is seeing the divine in people and how difficult that makes a decision like going to war, like dropping an A-bomb, like um um, you know, possibly taking a life to save a life and the toll that that takes on you. Um is it ever clean? Are there ever just causes for those things? And even if they are, does that then free the person of any accountability or responsibility? Um, I think that's what that represents. Um I think that's kind of the the stories that Dunkirk, Oppenheimer, and the Odyssey are grappling with because they're all stories of war and how the scars that people carry being a part of that.

Justice Questions And The Fog Of War

SPEAKER_03 5:02

And the question now, I think everyone is starting to question were those wars justified? Were we on the right side of history? Um, which I think is personally, I think that's a dangerous question. I think it's worth uh answering, but I think people have to have a very strong understanding of justice. And I think people would benefit a lot from reading the five dialogues of Plato and kind of engaging with the conversation Socrates has with young Euthyphro, because he's very confident in what he believes and what he stands for in the beginning when he's putting his father to trial. And just by asking him a few pointed questions, he all of a sudden begins to question well, actually, maybe I'm not too sure. I know what the gods want and what justice is and who's right and who's wrong. Right. Um I think that's a fair question for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

100%. I think if human history is any uh indicator, we are poor deciders of what is just in far too many instances in in world history. Um you reminded me um of Memento, and even in Memento, which is a great film, by the way, if you haven't seen it, uh make it a movie night, even there, the we're discovering the enemy is us. The enemy is, I don't want to give it too much away, but um Mike.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. Um it's the more I think about it, the the more complicated it actually seems. Like I thought I kind of had a an impression of you know what I was taking away from it, but the more I think about it, the the harder it is to really say like what I think he was trying to say and what the real takeaway is, because it is um it is a complex issue of you know what they did in the Trojan Wars, where you know, like I said earlier, it was necessary in a sense, but it also their actions led to all these other consequences that was kind of the downfall of their society. So I I don't know if he's just trying to say like there is no real clean answer to it. You can't actually resolve these two things where you know, because they're talking to all throughout like Zeus's law. We've you know violated Zeus's law of like you know being hospitable to strangers, it could be God in disguise and all this, but then also just the necessity of having sometimes having to fight wars and defend yourself, and so it seems like there isn't really a good resolution to those two things which are in tension with each other, which just speaks to the fallen world that we're in. I think like all these other philosophies and all these other stories are trying to find a way to say no, like no, this is completely right, and this is completely wrong. But until everything is ultimately set right, you know, at some point in the future, it's just these things are gonna exist like in tension with each other.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Or in the fog of war. Yes. We don't see we don't see the whole picture.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Yes, exactly. Yeah, I think that's a great way to put it. Um, so that's kind of what I took away from it, is it's really hard to make these two things mesh together, and which I think is what Odysseus is kind of struggling with, um, even towards the end.

The Dark Knight Burden Of Choice

unknown 8:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:23

And I I think what's a really important question is, and I think everyone kind of has to ask ask themselves this question is who's willing to be the dark knight when it really matters? You know? Um and that's I just I just watched the Dark Knight with my kids recently, and that was a big thing where where the where Batman takes on the sins of Harvey Dent because he needed the the image of what Harvey represented as the white knight who was doing everything right. But there has to be a dark knight somewhere in the shadows who's doing what no one else is willing to do, but also is going to carry the sins and the consequences and the punishment and the vitriol from everybody. It's like it's easy to hate on Odysseus for what he did, right? But it's like, but you don't have to carry what he carried because of it's like, and you get to eat your bread because he did what he did. That deception. Right. It's like, but the good thing is you don't have to carry what he carries. Yeah. You know, and I think that's kind of what even stories like Oppenheimer and it's like, yeah, okay, criticize me all you want, but the only reason why you're all you're not all speaking Japanese is because I made the bomb. Doesn't make it good. It doesn't make it, you know, but then again, I mean it it's easy to to make that claim. Uh it's easier for some people. It shouldn't really be easy when you really assess like what would you do if you were in his shoes? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

I mean, that's that's a conversation we could maybe have something that opens up a whole can of worms. Um it's very, very interesting one. Um, gentlemen, I think we're probably getting close to the end here.

What Works And What Falls Flat

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Um I'd like to hear Mario, you mentioned early on we were talking about Penelope um and that idea of Odysseus, you know, being kind of put up on a pedestal in this film.

SPEAKER_02 10:21

Yeah, so I kind of had a a hot take, I think, to you, James, um, is I like the way that they kind of portrayed everybody to kind of put Odysseus up, like in the way that his son was kind of a wimp in the film versus in the book, and Penelope was kind of like this mad woman, right, towards the end. But then at the end she said, I need Odysseus, right? And everything was just so dependent on him making it home. And so when he finally did, he's the one who killed everybody, right, versus him and his son. So I like the way that they made him like this hero, you know.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Yeah, and I thought that was well said, Mario. I what I was saying kind of as a counterpoint to that is when you put Odysseus up on such a pedestal, as I think they did, I think that's what happened in this film, the other characters unfortunately get flattened. You know, we talked about Telemachus, he does not have a character arc, he's the same character at the beginning as he is at the end. He's kind of this wimp, this, you know, uh like this whiff uh of a character, right? In terms of his masculinity and all that. The the the kind of the feminist rant, let's just say, that Penelope has at the end. That was one of those moments. I think you and I looked at each other kind of rolling our eyes, like, okay, you know, so you know, ultimately, is this a perfect film, in my opinion? No, not at all. Far from it. Um, but is it worth seeing? For the reasons you were saying, I think earlier, Mike, there's a lot to be taken from this film. There's a lot that you can learn from this film. Um, I think it is worth seeing, and I do recommend it. Um and even take your family to see it, which is kind of cool.

SPEAKER_03 12:12

Yeah, let me echo that too, because I know this probably sounds like I'm hating on it. Um let me be clear, it is not Homer's Odyssey, and it actually doesn't even claim to be Christopher Nolan used a modern adaptation by a different author and used her interpretation of the Odyssey for modern audiences to adapt as a gateway to the Odyssey. Please watch it. Yeah, because it is enjoyable, it is fun, there's a lot of action. In the way Troy is not by no means a good representation of the Iliad, but it's an enjoyable movie uh and makes you want to go read it and get to the source material. I think it did a pretty good job.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Yeah, amen. Um, we talked about maybe seeing it again. My wife hasn't seen it, she wasn't able to see it. You guys down to see it again, Mike. Would you see it again?

SPEAKER_01 13:03

I would see it again. Um, yeah, it's one of those movies I think you're gonna pick up a lot more the second time around, and a lot of other things will start to make a lot more sense.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

As Mario did. Mario's already seen it twice. Yeah, I'd see it a third time. Okay. Okay, very

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SPEAKER_00 13:20

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