Ep. 25 We’re Accidentally Training Men How to Treat Us

You know that feeling when someone gives you just enough attention to keep you hooked, then disappears long enough to make you spiral? We’re not calling it fate, bad luck, or Mercury retrograde. We’re calling it behavior. I sit down with Paola Ortiz, a board certified behavior analyst and professor, to look at dating patterns through Applied Behavior Analysis and it gets uncomfortably clarifying, fast.

Key Takeaways

• Applied behavior analysis (ABA) is a science that studies how behaviors are influenced by environmental factors.
• ABA can help individuals recognize and change unhealthy dating patterns by understanding reinforcement and behavior dynamics.
• How can I break unhealthy dating patterns? Start by recognizing your patterns, taking accountability for your choices, and seeking support to foster healthier relationships. 

About Paola 

Paola Ortiz is a board-certified behavior analyst, psychology professor, operational leader, and mom who is passionate about helping women design lives that actually work in the real world.

Through her work and her podcast, EveryDay ABA, Paola makes behavior science practical and relatable, especially for women carrying the invisible mental load at work and at home.

You can connect with her on Instagram @ProfessorPaola & listen to her podcast weekly on Tuesdays. 

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Transcript

Honest Look At Repeating Patterns

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Welcome to Mom is my emergency contact podcast, real conversations, no filter. I am Lisa, your host. All right, today we're doing something dangerous because we about to be honest with ourselves, and maybe we should be putting a trigger warning. We're not talking about love languages, we're not talking about manifesting your soulmate, we're not blaming Mercury retrograde, which I believe we're in right now. Maybe we're talking about behavior because here's the uncomfortable truth. If you keep dating the same type, tolerating the same nonsense and ending up in the same situationship, it's not bad luck. It's reinforcement. So today I've got a psychologist who specializes in applied behavior analysts, uh, ABA, and we're breaking down dating from a behavioral lens. So, why do we get addicted to inconsistent men? Why does ghosting make us want them more? Why do we reward the bare minimum? And how do we stop reinforcing behavior that keeps us stuck? This is going to challenge some beliefs. So buckle up buttercup. Let's disrupt some patterns. So today's guest is Paula Ortiz. Paula is a board certified behavior analyst, psychology professor, operational leader, and mom who is passionate about helping women design lives that actually work in the real world. Through her work and her podcast, Everyday ABA, Paola makes behavior science practical and relatable, especially for women carrying the invisible mental load at work and at home. Welcome, Paola.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

I'm so excited to be here. And I love that you're like, this is going to be a controversial. I'm excited, actually.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

You know, people get triggered when it's like they got to put the mirror, you know, and they're looking back instead of projecting and blaming other people. So, you know, this always seems to get people a little bit like, huh, no, it's me. Um, so I love it. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. I'm excited to have you here. So when I first found you, and then I was listening to your podcast, and you were talking about, and by the way, it's not just you on the podcast, you got uh other amazing women that are on the podcast, but you guys were talking about the Love is Blind uh show that which I love talking about, but you put it in a different spin, and I just loved that. So I thought, okay, she needs to be on this show.

ABA Explained Without The Jargon

SPEAKER_02 2:50

So, in simple terms, what is applied behavior analysis? Because I'm sure people are like, what the heck is that?

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Yes, and I'm actually not a psychologist.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Oh, but so you kind of corrected yourself then when you say I'm a board certified behavior analyst. So I'm not a therapist. Um, I would wear more like a lab coat if I had a uniform versus like, I feel like therapists to me are always like a scarf and a sweater. Working with a lot of therapists, no, no offense. I've always worked at therapists, but I'm a behavior analyst. So I'm the scientist of the group. Okay, because technically, applied behavior analysis isn't a therapy, it's a science, and it's the science of how behavior works in real life. So, whatever behavior we decide to look at, your child tantruming, um, you are late all the time, like insert behavior here. It can be any behavior. We are looking at what increases that behavior, what decreases it, and how our environment shapes our choices over time. So basically, ABA or applied behavior analysis studies patterns. Again, it studies what people do, what happens right after a behavior, and what was that thing that teaches you to either continue that behavior or stop that behavior. So ABA is more of a science than a therapy, technically, in the psychology community, but yeah, I'm a behavior analyst or psych professor.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

Yeah, and that's you know, the even you describing it, this is exactly why I want you on here. Because again, I think a lot of people, you know, when you talk about science, this is data. You know, the it's it's data. You can look at it, you can do the research on it. So when we think about how that compares to traditional therapy, um, I guess my question would be like, so do you actually like work with people in a sense of from a research based instead of like, okay, tell me how you feel.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Yeah, and not to say that therapy doesn't do that, right? We have tons of research and I do supervise therapists currently. I am a director of behavior health at a mental health organization. So that's why I'm like, we're we're cousins, we're very close family members, behavior analysts, and LCSWs and MFTs. But the difference is that they're doing maybe like cognitive behavior therapy or other therapies that are also research-based, right? Um, the difference is in our in the way that we track data. So I might ask Lisa, like, how are you feeling? Let's say you were suffering from substance abuse, okay? And you're telling me uh how you're feeling, how your week went. I'm jotting that down. Those are my notes. From a behavior analytic lens, I might say, Lisa, how many times last week did you think about using? And you might say, every day. And I'll say, Well, how many times did you use? I use six out of seven. All right. And then we would work together, right? And I would write those numbers down. She thought about using seven out of seven days, she used six out of seven. We work together. And then two weeks later, I say, How many times did you think about using? And you might now say, I thought about it seven times, but I used four. So that's the data. The data is that I'm taking data on your actual behaviors to see if the the treatment, the work that we're doing together is actually working. And ideally in six months, you would be thinking about using less, or maybe you are thinking about it, but you've learned all these coping skills that now you're only using once a week or once every other week. And that's, I think, the difference. In maybe a traditional therapist, you might still be doing the same great work, but they wouldn't have the numbers. Like they're not going to graph your behavior in a graph. And we behavior analysts put everything on a graph.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

I love this. I love this. I'm so intrigued by this. Um, so let's get to this whole dating thing and love and relationships. And um, so you're talking about data and versus you know the traditional therapy.

How Dating Conditions Our Choices

SPEAKER_02 6:49

So, are we being conditioned in our dating lives without actually realizing? And first answer that question. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Yes, I mean, behavior analysts believe that everything is behavior. Us taking out the trash is a conditioned behavior because the time I forget to take out my trash on, let's say Tuesday night because it comes super early Wednesday morning, then my trash is full, it stinks. Maybe there's animals that get into it. So I get punished. And then I remember the very next week, right? I have when we had our trash delivery day change, we put it on our whiteboard, we had a cell phone reminder, we did everything we could to not forget. That's data, right? It's like I did this, the consequence was bad. I didn't like that consequence, so I had to change my behavior by the phone reminding me or whatever it was. And now we just take out the trash. So that's a simple example of every everyday scenario, and that's ABA. Our parents did ABA with us when they spanked us or put us in timeout. They just didn't know that. They didn't know that that's what it was called, but they were trying to change our behavior, right? To teach us manners or whatever. So it's the same with dating. We are, I believe that we are constantly learning, even if we're 60 years old, right? We're not dead, we're still learning every day. So our behavior is being shaped all the time by our kids, by our friends, by our romantic partners. Um, everybody's shaping our behavior.

SPEAKER_02 8:14

So, you know, when you're saying this, it's kind of like if I could think about when I was dating, and then, you know, the the that interaction with that person ended. And it was like, okay, let's go back to what I was doing. You know, it's kind of like a routine, but then if I learn something, and I'm explaining this for people who might be listening and still need a little bit more um explanation. So if I had received a bad, you know, interaction with someone because I said something or did something, it's going to change the way then I move forward to like the next person, correct?

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Yes. And the key to that is that you are taking some accountability, I think, in that. Because you said it's going to change the way I do that. Like some of us are like, we're never dating Geminis because Geminis are the worst to date, right? Just saying the truth. Um, but or you could be like, oh, I don't know why I just, I, I, these men, they just find me. And there's a difference in psychology, we would call that like an internal locus of control versus an external locus of control. So I think the way you described it is more internal locus of control. I had a bad situation with this behavior, maybe not all Geminis or all tall people or all short people, right? We don't want to make generalizations, but you're like, okay, I've noticed this pattern and I personally want to stay away from it. So I have the choice to make in my internal locus of control to say, I'm not choosing that anymore. I'm trying to walk down this path and I don't, I'm not going left. I'm going this way now. But unfortunately, sometimes when you're young or you're newer to dating, right? Like if you hadn't dated for 10 years, I feel like you're new to dating again because dating changes all the time. I am, and I know from listening to your podcast episodes, right? That's sometimes what happens as a single mom. You're like, I haven't dated in 12 years. This is new to me, even though you're an adult, you're learning something brand new. So I would challenge everyone that you do have to take accountability. Otherwise, it's just gonna feel like life happens to you. And in all aspects of life, that's very powerless. So um, I know that that's not what you and I are about. We're about empowering women and saying, yeah, we have the ability to see these patterns and then find the patterns that work for us of the path that we want to go to, let's say.

SPEAKER_02 10:44

Okay. So let's get into some of the things that I'm sure women are,

Breadcrumbing And Intermittent Reinforcement

SPEAKER_02 10:50

well, they're all talking about this in a lot of these Facebook groups. Um, one of the terms, and I remember when this first came up, and I was like, what the hell is this? Um, bread crumbing, which is, you know, where you're like, uh, I'm gonna give you a little bit of attention just to give, I'm gonna give you a little piece of bread, a little attention, like a hello, good morning, and then you're like, oh my God, he's really into me. And then I step back, you don't hear from me for a couple of days, and then I cut it's like just kind of stringing you along. So is bread crumbing a form of intermittent reinforcement? And before you answer that question, can you describe what intermittent reinforcement is to the listeners?

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

I was like, yes, you you did your homework. I thought I was supposed to come with the homework done. Yes, so breadcrumbing is a type of intermittent reinforcement. And and in ABA, what we call intermittent reinforcement is basically so reinforcement is anything that you do that makes a behavior stronger, right? Think about like if I told you, hey, this weekend I have to reinforce my fence. You have an image there, right? I'm not painting it, I'm doing something to make it stronger. So anything you reinforce, you will make stronger. And anything you reinforce, let's say every single time you call me, I give you 10 bucks. Right? You're probably gonna call me every day because I give you $10. Then I stop giving you $10. You'll still keep calling me, but after two weeks, you'll stop. I put that behavior on extinction. But if I wanted you to continue to call me and never stop calling me, I would go from calling you every single day or sorry, giving you $10 every single day when you call me, to now maybe only giving you $10 every other day and then every three days and every four days. Why? Because you don't know when the $10 is coming, which is gonna make it even more likely for you to call. Actually, you might start calling me eight times a day because you might start getting some superstitious behavior. You might say, Oh, she always picks up in the morning, but that's not what it was. It just happened to be that I'm picking up every nine times, but one of them was in the morning, right? So you'll have these little superstitions. It's the same as gambling. You know, us adults, I think we've all probably been somewhere and gambled before. I know some people hate it, some people love it. Slot machines, they don't pay every single time. If we knew that the slot machine paid every time on the hour, I would sit at the slot machine with my drink, but I wouldn't keep putting money in, right? I would wait until I'm like, oh, it's about to hit. And then I might stop putting money in within like a minute or two before the one o'clock time slot, let's say. But slot machines don't pay every time, they're unpredictable, and that's what makes them addictive. And there's also, I don't want to get into all the neurobiology of it because people's eyes will glaze over, but I think what is good about knowing a little bit about the addictive nature is that you will know it's not your fault, right? We're just humans and we're humans that have hormones. So whenever you, let's say that you're gambling to stay with that example, you do put the money in and you just put $5 in and you get $30. Your brain is gonna release a little bit of dopamine when that reward comes, right? So then you take a sip of your drink and you're gonna put the money back in. Your brain actually starts releasing dopamine right when the reward might come, even if you don't get the reward. That's something that sometimes we don't stop and realize. Like the dopamine starts to already come out. So the uncertainty itself becomes reinforcing. And so then I'm like, oh, is she gonna pick up? Is she not? I hope she picks up. That's why we get excited when we first like text someone and they text us back or call us. And so it's not that I'm picking a bad person, it's that my body has hormones, dopamine being one of them, that is gonna be released anytime there's reward or anticipation and dopamine spikes with unpredictability. Will he text me? Is he gonna show up? Is he gonna bring flowers? And so unfortunately, that bread crumbing behavior, your body's just responding to the way a body responds. But then by doing that, you are reinforcing the bread crumbing and you're also reinforcing training your brain to uh to chase that the next high, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. Um, and I was gonna ask you why it's so addictive, but I think you've answered that with that whole anticipation, like, you know, oh, you know, they're gonna they're they're gonna text it, they might text me back. Oh my God. Um, I think what's crazy though is then why do we keep on doing it? Like, you know, at what point does it like at what point, what happens? Because I know you're saying there's this, uh, I'm sure the the the hormones, the synapses and all of that is happening, right? But at what point uh how do you stop that? Like what when do you say, oh god, this is breadcrumbing, or like what happens in the brain chemistry, or is it because somebody started getting some treatment or someone started talking to a therapist, or maybe there was something that disrupted that pathway? Like,

Dopamine Cortisol And The Chase

SPEAKER_02 16:20

how does it stop?

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Yeah, I think it stops with us recognizing the pattern, number one. So I think that that's what we meant maybe at the beginning. Like, we don't want to just be like, you're a terrible dater, right? For the sake of saying that. It's that it takes two to tangle, right? That old expression. So if you realize, let's say, insert man here, like he is breadcrumbing me. Yes, that means what you're saying literally. So in ABA, we talk about operational definitions, like define that behavior. Okay. So you're saying he calls you sometimes, then he doesn't, he takes you out sometimes, then he doesn't. Let's say that's what the person I'm working with says. Okay, and how does that make you feel? Well, blah, blah, blah. We processed that, right? And what you're telling me is you don't want to feel that way anymore. Right. So if you want to not feel this way anymore, you have to do something different. And I think that's the piece that's hard. I will say when I first started my podcast, we we've talked about marital problems, we've talked about problems that are with our family at work, like all these things. And very early on, I had an early listener um slide into my DMs and said, I'm really excited about listening to your podcast, but I'm waiting, um, hoping that you're gonna tell me how to get my husband to help around the house. Like I'm in my late 50s, he's never helped, and you haven't said once how I can get him to do these things. And so I interacted with her a little bit and I said, Well, we did. We talked about X, Y, and Z. And she said, No, you keep telling me what I need to do differently. How do I get him to help around the house? And that's where it hit me, where I thought, oh my God, now I have to be very transparent in all my episodes. Like, listen, and I'm not gonna tell you how to change someone else because in ABA we don't change other people, we change the environment, which then changes the behavior of the other person. But when a textbook says change the environment, they don't mean the chair and the desk. I'm the environment, right? I have to change what I'm allowing or how I'm interacting, or if I'm reinforcing their behavior or not. So basically the way that it ends is let's say this person is the breadcrumber. The bread crumbing works for them. When they call me late at night because I'm trying to be cool, the cool girl, and I'm like, okay, I'm just having fun or whatever. Then maybe you guys hook up late at night. And so that works for the man because he only called you once and he got to have sex out of it. And so did you, right? That was enjoyable for you too. But again, now you can't ignore that um sex releases oxytocin, which is a bonding hormone. So now you're feeling more attached and more bonded with that person, and not only more bonded and attached with that person, but bonded and attached with a person who is inconsistent. I think that's the key. Right. And so they got reinforced, and so did you. And then the next day, you're like, are he is he gonna call me today or is he not? Like, I wonder. So then that dopamine comes in, and then lovely cortisol comes in too, which is a stress hormone that keeps your body in this hyperactive stress. And we unfortunately, um there's a lot of research studies out there that I teach my intropsych students about where we misattribute stress and arousal for love. And if you think about just think about reality TV, I know you and I like reality TV shows. On The Bachelor, like they send them on um bungee jumping and helicopter rides. Why do they do all those things? Because they want your body to have be like nervous. Because you know, the helicopter rides, if you've ever been on one, they are a little more nerve-wracking than a normal flight. And so you start to feel cortisol stress hormones, and then you look over and he's kind of good looking. So you're like, oh, I'm falling in love. It really is what they do. Wow. Every reality TV show has some element of that. Like there needs to be stress, like in love is blind. Yes, they don't see each other, whatever, but when they're standing there, you don't think that they're having a lot of cortisol and dopamine right there in that before the big big reveal, right? Of course, and that's manufactured so that hopefully you can fall in love in a week. Because you should not be falling in love in a week in real life. Can I say that? No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

That's yeah, that's insane. I always thought that that was always crazy on those shows, but yeah, you're on the TV show, you're you're doing something, you're on TV, you know. That's that's stressful in itself, and it's exciting and new. Um and yes, then you're falling in love within a week. Um, I love that you said about the person that came to you and said that they were looking to make the change, changing someone. And it it kills me to think that there's still to this day people who think that we can change people, and at the end of the day, we can't. And it almost sounds like in these behavioral um patterns, the breaking of the pattern is you, you realizing and recognizing, wow, he keeps like doing this. And I always say, you know, when you're talking about that cortisol level, I always feel like if I'm like on this flight and fight like moment every time I'm with this dude, it's not that's just not okay. You know, this is not feeling, this is not peace, this is not happiness, you know. And that you always ask people do you feel at peace when and calm when you're with somebody, or is it always like, you know, you're like when's the next move gonna happen? Um, who wants to? Live like that on a 24-7 basis.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

But um but you are calling something peace that sometimes when we un when we don't realize that we're addicted to the chaos and the stress, we call boring.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

Yes, absolutely, and nobody wants that, especially especially if you're youthful. He's so boring.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Yes, and it's like is he boring, or do you feel peaceful around him? Right. And because it's not peaceful, you're not like what I just said, you're not on top of the helicopter going, I'm stressed out and you're cute. Oh, I must be in love. You're like, Oh, I went out with him, and I mean he's good looking, but he's just boring. Is he boring, or is it the first time that you're at peace, but you don't know what to do with it because we weren't taught that, right? Because maybe our early um attachment bonds weren't stable, or our last relationship wasn't stable, and there's a lot of highs and lows with that. Um, you know, we've I think we've all been probably in relationships where we would fight and then make up and then fight, and you're not sure. And then you do get used to these super high highs. And you might think, I've been with this guy two months and I don't know. Like, then your friend's like, oh, how are you guys? You're like, oh, good. I mean, we never fight, like I've never cried, I don't miss him. That's peace. But you don't realize that, right? You're thinking it has to be the stressful thing. And so that I think is to go back to answer your first question. Like, once you, I think, come to a point where you're looking for something different, where you do say, you know what, I just want to be with the person that makes me feel at peace. Like I want to feel super relaxed next to the new person, and knowing that you might feel really uncomfortable in that relaxation at first because you're not used to it.

SPEAKER_02 23:48

Yeah. So this is a

Peace Can Feel Like Boredom

SPEAKER_02 23:50

great moment to segue to these um early influences because you know, just like you're mentioning, if you grew up in a chaotic, you know, upbringing, that's what you know, that's what was taught to you, that's what you go to, and something that's not chaotic is boring to you. And like you said, you don't even know what to do with that. Like, what this is not right. I need that. I mean, it's internally like can you explain a little bit about that? Because I think when you say this to people, they're like, Well, why would I want chaos? I had a chaotic upbringing. Why would I want someone that's bringing that down, bringing that to me, but it's subconsciously?

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Yeah, I think you're not aware of it even at first. Um, and I will say, you know, your past isn't your destiny, but it did program your defaults. I really truly believe that we can still change and evolve, and that's a beautiful thing about psychology. There's tons of research that shows that yes, Freud thought that we were set at age five. He's wrong. There's tons of research that shows that you can evolve and change and adapt. So your past, yes, is a part of you, but doesn't program your destiny. If you decide today that I want to let go of that, you can, right? There's lots of different therapy methods for that. Um, but to go back to, you know, what is it, you might not even be aware. But let's say, for example, that you come from a family that didn't really express too much. Like they weren't very expressive in their love or their feelings or their emotions. You're probably gonna be attracted to like the stoic type of person because it would be uncomfortable if you met a guy that was really in touch with his emotions. You're gonna at happy hour go, like, ugh, he wants to talk about emotions. Ugh, I don't like that. Like, I don't know. There's just something about him that, like, I know he's good looking and he has a good job, and on paper he's good, but there's just no chemistry, right? How many times do we say there is no chemistry? And chemistry is you're saying there's not a huge flood of hormones in my body. And I just told you the flood of hormones, which are dopamine and cortisol. They're I'm not telling you they're the the zen, I'm meditating hormones, you know, the stressful ones. So chemistry, your body gets bonded to someone who is bad for you because of chemistry, but chemistry is not compatibility. And I think that's the hard thing, right? Like, think about who are the people that if right now your phone rang, we would literally stop recording and like you would run and help them. Probably yeah, your kids, your family, my mother, yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, and who are the people that know you the best? Those those people, yeah, and who are the people that you fight with the most? Those people the same people, right? Yeah, the answer is like same, same, same. So you have this thing, and but it's hard to piece it apart because your mom irks you the most. She also knows you the most. You love her the most, right? So then you meet a man that you don't know. Let's be real, you don't love him yet. But if you meet him and he immediately irks you, and you're trying to get to know him, but you want to be with him, you can maybe accidentally, I think, confuse those things. But your mom, you've known your whole entire life. Your daughter, you've known her her whole entire life. I think sometimes the problem is that we give strangers access and we forget they're strangers, you know?

SPEAKER_02 27:30

They're potentially serial killers. I mean, what do I know?

SPEAKER_01 27:33

You know, and they say, No, I'm not. And I say, that's something a serial killer would say.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

So I was this was a great example because I was gonna ask you to give an example. How does the early conditioning influence like who you are attached to? You know, I always think of the uh emotionally unavailable men, you know, you growing up in a household where maybe you know one of the parents was not as attentive. Um, and then that's exactly what you are attracting um while you're dating um without even knowing it. I think that it takes a lot of self-awareness to say, hey, what's going on here? Like, why am I, you know, attracting the same type of person? What's going on here? And asking those um important questions.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

Well, and all of us do

Why Familiar Can Feel Safe

SPEAKER_01 28:27

that. All of us do that because the familiar feels safe, even when it's unhealthy. The familiar feels safe because it feels familiar, right? Like when you and I met, it's like, oh, I assume, right? I could I could get off the Zoom and be like, oh my god, Lisa and I, we would be besties. Why? Because she has a podcast and I have a podcast. We're feminists and I want empowerment, right? Like it just felt familiar. But the reality is I don't actually know you, I don't know your daughter's name, yeah, right. But the familiar feels safe because I felt like we had a lot in common just from us messaging and chatting and in the last month. Yeah. Um, and so just because it feels familiar. So I think that's like maybe something to stay with. Like, does this feel familiar? And if it does, is that why you feel safe with this person? Because you feel like, oh, this is something I've done before. But again, if you have realized that what I've done before isn't what I want, then you gotta break that pattern. Otherwise, I think we you started by saying like Mercury and retrograde and all these things, like, okay, fine, don't close your third eye to the truth, right? If you believe in that, it's like we close our third eye to the truth. Deep down inside, you already know. Don't you're your worst hater, right? Because you block yourself from getting all the things you want. So I think it whether you believe in manifesting, I don't care what you believe in, I think everyone's correct. That if you want something different, you're gonna have to stop and go, okay, I'm listening to this episode. I do want something different. What is it that I want? Make that super clear. And then and then let's continue to talk, I guess, to see if we can get you there with different behaviors that you're gonna engage in next week, the week after that, the next month to get you to where you actually want to be.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

So you're telling that to the person to have a different behavior and see what's the outcome from that. I love that. That's experimenting.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

Yeah, it's great. That's why I said it's a science, right? Because and it's the same with medicine. I mean, we don't like to think that way, but science is a medicine. They do experiment on us, and that's how they realize if something works or doesn't work, not just with prescriptions, but surgery, that's how things get better. So you do have to go, okay, I'm a this didn't work. I have five data points. Like I have five X's that don't work. This is five data points. Now, this next person, this is what I'm gonna try differently. The moment they engage in this behavior that the others five did, I'm going to be different. The hard part with it is that as women, we're socialized to be nice and kind and give people the benefit of the doubt. So you're always gonna have this internal thing that's like, oh, he's probably different. Like, don't be so hard on him. And that's where you have to be like, no, the rule is the rule. I tell people sometimes treat it, and I do a lot of coaching, you know, as a director and I'm constantly mentoring people in leadership. So I say, treat it as a job. If I bring someone in, they're on a 90-day probation. I don't say, oh, I don't think they meant that. I'm pretty sure that no, if they say something offensive to a client, I'm like, hey, bring them into my office. I gotta talk to them right away. So treat it that way. The moment you begin that behavior change, you're gonna have to be more rigid and strict and black and white, not, oh, well, maybe, maybe this guy, Robert, I mean, he does remind me of my exes, but Robert's different. Nope. If he reminds you, you gotta trust that gut. There, you know, activate the behavior plan. The moment you're like, this is my behavior plan, this is what I said, I must do it.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

Wow, that's awesome. I

Red Flags As Observable Behavior

SPEAKER_02 32:05

love that. Um, okay, so let's talk about red flags through a behavior lens. Um, from an ABA perspective, what are clear, and we talked a little bit about the the bread crumbing, what are clear behavioral red flags?

SPEAKER_01 32:20

A huge one I think people use this word a lot now is love bombing, um, which is means that you know, there's like um a lot of flattery or a lot of love from the beginning. Anybody that does that, again, you just have if you are writing a behavior plan for yourself, you'd be like, if they engage in this type of behavior, it feels nice, right? Of course, I want someone to say, like, oh, you're the most beautiful girl I've ever seen. Um, because maybe they're right. You know, you want to believe it. Um, but the love bombing, I think, isn't just physical. Like, I've I've had single mom friends and they've, oh, I this guy and this and that. And I'm like, what do you mean he told you, like, I know how much you care about your family and you're a great mom? And that's triggering, right? Because they want to be a great mom. And I live by the default that everyone's a great mom. And if you think you're a bad mom, you're probably an amazing mom because you're actually trying to be, you're like going all the time reading books and trying to be the better version of yourself, right? Those of us that care are really doing that. I'm like, how does he know you're a great mom? How does he know you're a caregiver? He doesn't know you. So it's insincere flattery. So that should be a red flag. The moment they like you too much, or the guys will say, like, oh, I want to see you again. I can't wait to see you. Can I talk to you? It's like, why? You don't know me yet. Let's get to know each other. It's the same as if Lisa, you gave me your number and I started texting you today and tomorrow and Monday. I would hope you would go, She's a weird, crazy stalker, and you would block me because that's not okay.

SPEAKER_03 33:56

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

I think online dating is it is what it

Online Dating Tests And Boundaries

SPEAKER_01 34:00

is. I think it's impossible to date to find someone in normal life now. I met my husband through online dating. Really? But there's after 10 years of online dating, okay, when someone says, Oh my god, which app were you at? I was like, all of them. I was on all of the apps. I did little stints, I would get off of them because they say, like, you know, that I don't know, they say all these little things where it's like, there's plenty of fish in the sea. And I'm like, yes, and the ocean's polluted. Like, you know, it's hard, it's hard out there. It is, but online dating gives men, I think, this illusion that, like, oh my God, look at the thousand women that want me. They don't want you, you know, and so some men do just swipe right with everyone. And so if I was new to dating, I and I match, I might be like, oh, I matched with someone. You think they actually read your profile and they cared, they don't. Um, I think you could have little red flags. So, not just speaking of what are red flags, but I think once you know what red flags are, I think you need to have red flag safeguards in your dating. So, one thing I used to do is I had like four photos up on my profile and no information about myself. And so, and then, you know, I'd post the profile. Let's say I started Bumble, right? After I got off of it or something. And then I would get 100 messages and 90 of those, or let's say you got 10, 9 of those, whatever. 90% of them were like, hey, we have so much in common. Can't wait to learn more about all the hobbies you mentioned. Would you like to talk?

unknown 35:45

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

So not only is it a red flag because you just are doing a numbers game, but I knew that you did not read my profile because there's nothing on my profile. That's genius. So now there's a generic message there, right? Some men would um message me and say, Hey, you look really beautiful. Your profile is empty, wasn't sure if this is a bot. And then I was like, Okay, my profile's empty. So then I would, I always made the excuse, like, I do teach, which I do teach at two colleges near here. So I would say, Well, I teach, and I'm always paranoid that my students might find me. So if a student found me, I would say, Oh, I got hacked. You know, it was just my pictures or something, which would kind of start a nice conversation and we would chat. Um, to me, a red flag was they would immediately say, Can I get your number so we can talk? No, I you're a stranger. You're you were a stranger five minutes ago. What's different? And so I would say, we can keep talking on this app, let's get to know each other. Uh I understand that it doesn't have to be for five weeks, but if all you're doing is messaging on the app, what you will will realize if you haven't already realized this, um, hopefully the listeners will be like, yes, she's 100% right, is you'll give them your number and they immediately text you. And then what you're doing is texting back and forth. You could have done that same thing on the app.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

So I used to then have my other, so I would have like red flags, and so I'd have like little tests, right? So then I would say, um, they'd say, I'd like to hang out with you, like you seem really cool, because we'd been talking maybe four or five days, you know, and I would purposely not be on the app for hours because I want them to think I have a life and I'm busy. So I'd be on it, text a little bit, leave. They do it to us, I need to do it to them, right? So they would say, Can we do something? And I would say, here's my number, call me sometime.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

If I got a text a minute after I gave them my number, done. You didn't pass my test. I said, call me. So not only is it a boundary, but it's also I'm seeing if there's red flags here because what happened, if I would say, Hey, I thought you were gonna call, oh, it's fine, then I'm leaning into them. And so that's a red flag that the I asked for something and you didn't meet me what I halfway, right? And so it's a red flag that they're boundary testing, they're doing small violations early. And I get that what I'm saying is so small, but that's boundary testing, which is a red flag, right? Um, we can talk about the bread crumbing and the love. I think those are higher stakes. Boundary testing, if you realize it from the very beginning, you're opening the door for them to breadcrumb you later if you don't stick to your boundary.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

Some men would call and say, Oh, I think it's a little awkward that I'm calling, but I, you know, and I was like, Well, you can be cute about it. You can be like, Oh, I just wanted to make sure you didn't have a Mickey Mouse voice, you know, wanted to make sure. But really, I wanted to make sure, can I talk to you for five minutes? If not, I'm not putting makeup on and driving across town to see you. Right. Because that's a boring day, it's a waste of my time. You could be spending a time doing a million other things, right? And we have to value our time as women too. And so I think that um was a red flag for me if they weren't following those guidelines. Um, I've always kind of had a busy schedule, but I I've always told women like, you have to date five men at once if you know that you're a woman that immediately latches on. Um, you can't do that because they're keeping their options open.

SPEAKER_03 39:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

And so um I think that is difficult. Um, because and a red flag would be that men will drop effort once the commitment is secured. You'll see a lot of effort and they'll ask. Sometimes men will ask you, like, oh, so are you gonna drop the dating app soon? I have friends that are still on dating apps, and after the second date, they'll say, Oh, the man asked me to delete my account. And I said, You have to smile and be cute and say, like, are you ready to define the relationship? And they're like, and my girlfriends are like, Oh, I couldn't say that. I'm like, oh, so you deleted your account. Yes, I did. And did he? Oh, I think so. Well, now you have to open your account to say ensure he did, right? So again, it's like he's gonna drop his effort once the commitment is secured. I think that ask them asking you to delete your account and they're not your boyfriend or girlfriend, red flag.

SPEAKER_02 40:13

Right. Yeah, no kidding. Those were amazing, amazing examples. Um, I was always thinking, I was also thinking about the one of, you know, when they say, Oh my god, I've never met anyone like you. You're different. You haven't met a lot of people, it sounds like. I know. Where have you been living under underneath the rock? Yes. Um, words are cheap, right?

SPEAKER_01 40:35

I think that that's the thing. It's like words are cheap, but repeated behavior is expensive. It costs those men time and money and energy. And so that's a red flag um that you can test out. Like, is this person going to invest time and energy into you? Fine, not money, right? But time and energy. A lot of times, no, they just want that quick fix. So words are cheap, but behavior is expensive and you're worth your expensive water, your water at the airport. Okay. You're an expensive water at the airport. So make them give you repeated time and energy.

SPEAKER_02 41:11

Okay, that was that was good. Um, all right, let's talk about the green flags, the healthy

Green Flags And Emotional Safety

SPEAKER_02 41:16

stuff. You know, like what behaviors signal like emotional safety when women are dating.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Um, I think the thing you gotta think about too, and I probably should have said this in the when when I said the example, like if you gave me my number and I did the same to you, um, the same with trust and communication, think about it when you're making friends. Like we already actually know this, right? You know when you meet someone at work, if you're gonna be friends with this girlfriend or not. So what I'm saying shouldn't be like, oh my God, I never knew this stuff. So trust yourself that you do know deep down inside how to make friends. Use that same principle with a man. So the way that you make a friend, I think if I asked people, they might say, like, well, you need to trust them, you need to communicate with them, know things about them. Yes. And the behavior markers of a healthy relationship are consistency over time, right? Like that you do what you say you're going to do. If you say we're gonna meet for coffee and you cancel, okay, but if you cancel again, I don't know if Lisa and I are gonna be friends. The third time, I'm like, all right, I'm done trying to chase this friendship with Lisa, right? And you and I wouldn't be friends, so why would I keep dating? Why would I then invite you to my house to have sex with me if you were trying to date me? Like, that's not gonna happen, right? But we do that as women sometimes, like no, right? So no. So consistency over time, we might have conflict as friends, but do we repair after conflict, right? Do you say, hey, I really didn't like that? Or I know you're really sarcastic, but sometimes when you're joking in a sarcastic way, it does hurt my feelings. Can he accept that and repair it? Is he responsive to the feedback? That's a healthy relationship pattern. And what I had just said previously about the effort, effort actually increases the more you get to know someone, not decreases. And that's totally different from a man that's love bombing and breadcrumbing. Because I asked you, right, who would you drop everything for? Your effort increases for your mom and your daughter, the people that you love the most. I think I would do anything for my husband now, and same for him for me. But when we were dating, if you ask me certain things, I'd be like, oh, I don't know if he's gonna do that. Or I'm not gonna stop working to go with him to see his mom at the doctor or what. But certain things I do now because yeah, effort increases with time and commitment, not decreases. So it as you're getting to know each other, if the effort is decreasing, that's a data point that you cannot ignore, no matter how much we want to ignore it. You cannot. And emotional safety has to be reinforced. And then back to the hormones, I would say healthy love isn't intense. So is this You know, if you're like, oh, I like him a lot, it's the most boring love I've ever had. You're on to a good thing. Maybe you have to think of it that way, you know, because we call it boring. So I'm using the word boring, but healthy love is not intense. It's stable, it feels good. And you just feel good about yourself. I mean, I think about in my relationship with my husband, you know, he met me as a director, as a psychology professor. We would see each other on the weekends. We're married now. We have kids. I have my podcast. Like, he doesn't ever say, when are you gonna stop podcasting? Or like, why don't you, I don't know, stay home more. I he, I think, accepts me exactly how I am. And even today, I'm like, all right, I'll see you guys in a little bit. He's like, good luck. Right? He that's what I think. It's like that is emotionally stable for me and secure. He accepts that I love to do all these little side projects. I love talking to women, I love going on my girls' nights, even though I have a little six-month at home. I've been to girls' nights already once a month. And you need it. And you need it the most, I will say, when you have little kids in the house, right? And so those are healthy green flags. But the man who right away is saying, and I had men that would say, Oh, but you're not going to keep teaching so much. Like if we were to like get married, right? Like your life would have to change, or I like to travel. Oh, well, we won't be able to travel once we have kids. I've only been married five years, but we travel every single year. I teach, I do my stuff. I think that the relationship should be additive to your life. So just kind of sit with yourself and go, is this relationship making me a better person? Is it additive? And you again, you're gonna know deep down inside. And if it's not, it doesn't matter what checklist I give you. You're already gonna know this is not a healthy, this is not a green flag relationship.

SPEAKER_02 45:52

I was just gonna ask you, but I think you answered all those questions about how do how do healthy couples reinforce each other? So it sounds like it's acceptance is is one of them. Um, but what are other things that, you know, not just single women that are listening to this podcast, but even women who are in a relationship, how could they in a healthy way reinforce each

Reinforcing Healthy Effort Over Time

SPEAKER_02 46:18

other?

SPEAKER_01 46:18

Yeah, I think you have to realize, and people can change, right? But people are changing for themselves or changing for how it affects themselves. Right. No one is gonna change, like you're not gonna go to the gym because your friend is telling you that you've gained a couple pounds extra, right? You're gonna only go to the gym when you want to. So, in a healthy relationship, you gotta know that too. They're not gonna change for you, they're gonna change because they want to change to be the better version of you. So, and I think that starts with you. So, I think although I just listed all the stuff that I do for myself, I also think I try not to be selfish in it, right? I think, okay, I'm going to tomorrow, I'll probably say, Hey, you were watching the girls for hours while I did a lot of work. I'm gonna take them to the park and you just hang out. He loves to like garden at home or tinker in the garage and you know, give him his alone time. I try to reciprocate as much as possible because again, I think about in my friendships, if I felt like I was the one always inviting the girls to dinner and I always paid and I always drove, it's gonna feel one-sided. I'm not gonna want to be friends with that person. So I treat my partner the exact same way. I want to be in a great friendship with my business partner, my life partner.

SPEAKER_02 47:35

Yeah, no, that's awesome.

Speed Round Red Flag Or Harmless

SPEAKER_02 47:37

Um, Paola, we're gonna now segue to a speed round. I think I already put you in the hot seat. Well, I don't know. This might be the hot seat. Maybe so is this behavior or delusion? So just quick answers, no explanation. Um, and you can say both. Uh so is this a behavioral red flag or harmless? Okay, ready? Okay, only text late at night. Red flag says I'm bad at texting. Red flag shares trauma on date one.

SPEAKER_01 48:13

Run. You're not their therapist, and if you are a therapist, you're not their therapist. It's unethical to be their therapist. Right. I feel I feel that.

SPEAKER_02 48:23

Um the minute you say something like that, then they start unloading, and it's like, Jesus Christ. Okay. Um says, Oh, test your boundaries. Yes, red flag. This one I love is says, I just go with the flow.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

Red flag. I think that means they're not gonna do any planning and you get to do all the mental and emotional labor.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

Exactly. Apologizes, but doesn't change behavior.

SPEAKER_01 48:54

No, red flag, beige flag. Maybe because I'm a behavior change person. I think that maybe they just need some coaching.

SPEAKER_02 49:01

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

Well, Paola for me, maybe as their therapist, not for you. Red flag for you, beige flag for me. How about that?

SPEAKER_02 49:11

Well, thank you, Paolo. Where can we find

Where To Follow Paola Ortiz

SPEAKER_02 49:14

you? I know you got your podcast, but where are you on your socials and tell us all of that?

SPEAKER_01 49:18

Yes, um, everyone can find me on Instagram. I'm at professor Paola, and I'm starting to post a little bit more. So trying to do my little funny reels and stuff. So follow me there. You can also listen to me every week on Tuesdays, wherever you get your podcast from. We are at um the Everyday ABA podcast, and we also are on Instagram at everydayaba.3.

SPEAKER_02 49:43

Okay, great. So before you go, make sure you're subscribed to Mom is My Emergency Contact Podcast. Wherever you listen to podcasts, we're on Apple, Spotify, and all major platforms. If you'd rather watch the conversation, head over to our YouTube channel. Just search Mom is my emergency contact and hit subscribe. And if you want bonus content, behind the scenes notes, and updates you won't always hear on the pod, come hang out with us on Substack after hours. Link is in the notes for you to subscribe to. And listen, if you have a story that is way too crazy and you're look, you're just like, nobody's gonna believe me, we want to hear it. Okay, so email us at mom is my emergencycontact at gmail.com, all one word, because your story just might end up on the show.

Final Reminder Watch The Behavior

SPEAKER_02 50:32

All right. Well, this conversation might have triggered you just a little bit good, because once you understand behavior, you can't unsee it, hopefully. You can't ignore patterns, you can't romanticize inconsistency, you can't pretend confusion is chemistry. Behavior doesn't lie, and once we start rewarding crumbs, we change the entire dynamic. To our guest Paola, thank you for breaking this down in a way that, first of all, we understand and empowers us instead of shaming us, and to everyone else listening, watch the behavior, not the words, not the potential, the behavior. And until next time, bye,