Episode 20: Ding Dong Dell

Some nursery rhymes are downright morbid and "Ding Dong Dell" is one of them. Why did a church organist write a nursery rhyme about a cat being drowned in a well? Learn more about this sinister nursery rhyme in this week's episode of A Tisket-Tasket Podcast. Find me on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, TIktok, and elsewhere under "ATisketTasketPodcast."  Want to support my work? Visit my website at atiskettasketpodcast.com. 

Transcript

Gina: 1:08

Hello, and welcome to episode number 20 of a Tisket-Tasket podcast. I'm your host, Gina and today we are here to talk about the nursery rhyme, Ding Dong Dell. Before we get started, I have just a few things to cover. First, I was told some of my audio in last week's episode, that would be episode number 19,"Mary Had a Little Lamb," is a little bit wonky. So I'm going to go ahead and fix that and re upload it at some point. I apologize if it interrupted your listening pleasure, but I will go ahead and change that soon. Second of all. You can find me on social media, Tik, TOK, Facebook, Instagram, all of the places under my handle, atiskettasketpodcast, you can also find links in the description. You can visit my website slash blog that has a bunch of great information on it, including visuals that I just can't show on a podcast. That includes some beautiful illustrations. By artists that I don't really talk about. So please view that at atisktastketpodcast.com it's also important because it includes all of my references. I am still waiting to hear back from the American folklore society. Their annual conference is November 1st through the fourth in Portland, Oregon. And I'm hoping to speak at it. I found out that I will hear back about my presentation by the end of June. In the meantime, I'm trying to raise some money so I can get out there. It's. a pricey trip but I really want to widen my horizons, make connections and learn more really. And I don't know if I could go without financial assistance. So if you think you can help me out, please visit my blog or clink on the link in the description. Any little bit would help really. I. I would really appreciate it. I've mentioned before I am disabled and am unable to work. And this is really my passion and what gets me up like seriously, what gets me out of bed is to record this podcast and really enjoy exploring the history and the folklore. So any help to make my dream come true, to connect with other people. I would really appreciate it again, you can click on the link in the description. I think that's all I have to cover. So let's go ahead and start talking about. This week's nursery rhyme, which is ding dong Dell. Dean dong Dell or ding dong bell. Has a Roud Folk Song index number of 12,853. The internet and I use this as a vague term has coined this, the oldest nursery rhyme in the English language. Which I find quite preposterous if you've listened to my earlier podcast episodes, you know why I've talked about things like Hickory Dickory dock and Baba, black sheep which have reported beginnings way before the 16th century, as I've mentioned, a number of times before nursery rhymes were traditionally orally passed down. And so I think claiming that the 16th century nursery rhyme, which I admit is quite old. It's it's really not the oldest nursery or I'm in the English language by far. However it is known to be rather old Ding Dong Dell or Ding Dong Bell.. And it is dated back definitively to 1580. Which it was written by a man named John Landt. John was an organist. In Winchester, cathedral. In the original lyrics in 1580, where"Jack boy. Homeboy news. The cat is in the well. Let us ring now for her knell. Ding dong ding dong bell." Which I find the lyrics odd, but I'll talk a little bit about that later. But to put timeframe into perspective. So I said that John Lance version was written in 1580. To put time and perspective shakespeare was 16. When Landt wrote this, and this does factor into. Kind of overall. And I'll talk a little bit about this later. But it was also later published in 1609 by Thomas. Ravenscroft and Pammelia, Musicks Miscellanie so originally written in 1580, and then again, published in 1609. Now I haven't talked about Thomas Ravenscroft before and there are names that if you've listened to this podcast and it's preaching to the choir at this point, that you'll hear very often. Like I mentioned Opie and Opie, Halliwell, And others and Ravenscroft is another one that whose name I see pop up quite a bit. So, just to tell you a little bit about Thomas Ravens Croft. He is another notable figure in English, folklore and nursery rhymes. Ravenscroft was born in 1588 and died in 1635 in primarily was known for his catches in rounds. So for me, when I think of round, I think of row, row, row, your boat that's like immediately comes to mind. So those types of musical numbers. He was also instrumental the invention of street cries. And if you listen to two episodes ago, when I talk about hot cross buns, that's an excellent example of a street cry. I don't know if Ravenscroft had anything to do with that but his most notable work does appear in Pammelia, Musicks Miscellanie 1609. And it contains such classics as three blind mice, which I haven't talked about yet on this podcast, but it's coming. And unfortunately little is known about his actual life. There are records of him being a choir member and there are church records about what he did, but like scholars don't really know much about him. But I'd really like to talk more about him in another episode and maybe I'll record an episode about his life that I can play on an off week or a week that I'm not feeling very well. But that is Thomas Ravens Croft. And if you kind of like a benchmark in your mind about. How long ago these people lived, he lived alongside Shakespeare. So I just think it's really fascinating when you're trying to think about how old these nursery rhymes. Kind of helps put things in perspective. So now let's talk about origins and versoins of the years of ding-dong Dell. Well, a lot of scholars and I use quotation marks there so that this is the oldest nurser. I'm going on a limb in saying that it's probably one of the oldest nursery rhymes that can be kind of definitively trace back on when it was written down. as I've mentioned, it was originally written by John Landt as something to sing. I find it very interesting that John Ladnt was an organist for a church. And so this was around and or catch. And so now I'm really curious, and maybe someone can do this research. Where other catches and rounds in churches like this dark was this like a common thing. There are a number of nursery rhymes about cats and like cats jobs. But why is it morbid? Why is it talking about a cat's death? And so if someone out there is listening to this and knows. Like the history of church rounds or catches, like email me. I'm really, really curious to know. And you can find my email in the description below. But obviously the nursery rhyme morphed in change over time from what land. Has written. Interestingly, this nursery around appears in Shakespeare. It appears twice. It appears in the Tempest, which is a water Shakespeare's later plays. It's actually. Argued to be the last play he wrote before he died. And it was written in 1610-1611ish. Shakespeare died. 1616. And it appeared in the merchant of Venice, which was written sometime between 1596 in 1598. Composer William Stannard who was living between 1585 and 1630 wrote a four-part round of the nursery rhyme. And the lyrics are as follows. Ding, ding, ding dong bell, ding, ding, ding, ding dong bell. Oh, cruel death that stopped the breadth of him. I love so well. Attack. Lack and well away to the heavy day that ever us fell. Then for his sake, some order, let us take that. We may ring his knell and Nell is spelled K N E L L. The first modern canonical version appears in Mother Goose's Melody around 1765. And I've talked a lot about this book and the version that appears in mother Goose's melody is as follows." Ding dong bell pussies in the well who put her in little Johnny Green who pulled her out little Tommy stout." I didn't sing it with the melody, but the melody is the same as three blind mice. If, if that helps kind of, you hear it in your head. The first version appearing that saves the cat because the cat doesn't. Really suffer a good fate. And a lot of the different versions was written by our good friend, James Orchard Halliwell, in nursery rhymes for England in 1842. Poor cat. And he's been dying for over 200 years before someone decided to save him. But in 1949 writer, Jeffrey Hall in his New Nursery Rhymes for Old publish a more PG version for children. And it reads ding dong bell pussies at the well who took her there little Johnny hair. Who bring her in little Tommy thin. What a jolly boy was that to get some milk for Pussycats who never did any harm, but played with the nice in his father's barn. An audio version, then I'll play later, actually uses some of the similar lyrics and it was actually published in 1938 so before Jeffrey Hall's 1949, although I think in the audio version, the cat does not suffer a good fate, but. We'll talk about that later. But when we circled back to the lyrics or the words of this nursery rhyme. So in the Slater's version, you know, I used the word Johnny hair and Tommy thin. Scholarship wondered about the central characters of the rhyme. And I've talked about before, how in nursery rhymes, there are like common names that appear or common characters that create kind of a narration. So Jack or Mary Jill and names like that come up frequently. And I've even talked a little bit about how certain names mean other things in old, in older English. So Jack SPRAT. Was a name for something else. You can go ahead and listen to that in another episode or what I was talking about Pulling a plum, you know, a Jack was a thief. Or someone who, you know, might get up to no good. So these names appear again and again, and it's probably a little to wonder why, if these were orally passed down, you want names that are common. And named third easily associated with other things. So in the history of ding-dong DellOPies talk about Johnny and Tommy and apparently Johnny Green. Who appears in the nursery rhyme. I was an antagonist and other rhymes. So apparently it was just like me little boy who did really nasty things and disappointed his parents. And put cats and Wells. And Tommy thin or Olin. Depending on what versions you read was a protagonist. He often saved characters, often did good things. So if you're reading older nursery rhymes, look for names like Johnny and Tommy, and see if their protagonists are good guys or main characters or antagonists or, or bad guys doing malevolent things. But now let's go ahead and listen to some audio versions of ding dong Dell. He was really neat. We can actually know what Dean dong Dell or bell sounded like in 1609. I've certainly talked about surviving sheet music. And I've, you know, posted quite a few of my blog. If you want to take a look at that. Especially from the mid to late 17th century. Dancing masters comes to mind. But I think this is the oldest version. I can share an audio and unfortunately I'm not like very competent in like computer audio. So I can't read sheet music or I haven't really figured out a way to take really old sheet music and convert it into. Like a mid-year MP3. I really wished to learn that skill. But anyway, I did find a mini version. Of. Raven's crops 1609 version. Of ding dong Dell that appeared in music's miscellanea so here's the mini version. So something that you can picture singing and around or a catch at church. Of ding-dong doll. So here you go. Pretty neat. Right? It's so crazy to think about what we're listening to now was the same music or the same melody or rhyme that people were singing to in 1609. Shakespeare was alive. Isn't that crazy? I just love it. I love it. I love researching this. The second version I'm going to play for you is from 1938 and it is on a record called uncle max nursery rhymes. Part two by uncle Mack, who is Derek McCloud, Stuart Robertson, Dorothy. Heinrich and his from the children's course in orchestra. Now, this version uses kind of a mix of the modern lyrics and the old fashioned lyrics. And again, I've talked a little bit about how I really liked these early 20th century recordings, just because I well, for a number of reasons, but one of the reasons is I really like the sound effects they include. And so here's the 1938 version of dingdong bell. Pretty neat. Right. So I'm not going to play this version now, but for the outro I found. Someone who took the nursery run ding-dong Dell or dingdong bell and made it into a more upbeat dancing singing kind of, or dancing. Version and eight. Is called ding Dom Del by Gretta org. Lou Rick Newman. And I just thought it was really, really fun. Unfortunately, it doesn't like fit in with the whole nursery rhyme thing. So I thought I'd play it for the outro, but I want them to include it anyway, because as I've talked about previously, I really like when people take nursery rhymes and. Appropriate to what is modern, like what the modern culture is kind of what the modern music scene is. And so I just thought this was a really fun version. This is from the early 20th century. And again, I could just picture people dancing to this and dance halls. So again, that is the outro that I'll share later. But I do want to talk a little bit about kind of the miscellaneous things I found out about dingdong bell. When I was researching, I found a number of stylized and illustrated sheet music for this nursery rhyme as is kind of common for nursery rhymes. But one particular book I found is called Canada's songbook for middle school and seeing clubs arrange for two parts singing and it was published in 1925. I'm actually going to link it on the blog or actually upload the whole PDF on my blog because it isn't in the public domain, but I am a sucker. For old school books like this, like advertisements or curriculum booklets, because obviously before the time of the internet, these things were published, right? Books of sheet music books of curriculum instruction. And I really love early 20th century or even older. Instruction booklets with nursery rhymes in it, because it usually contains annotations. It usually contains notes from. Teachers or principals or whoever's part of the school curriculum. That kind of. Adds a little bit flavor of what the. Current kind of mindset was behind those nursery rhymes. And so I really like to look at them. A friend actually got one from 1900. In an estate sale. So a friend for my birthday actually found one called songs for home in school. It was copyright 1903. And again, I'm from the Cleveland Ohio area. So when she brought this for my birthday, it was seriously. One of the coolest things I've ever seen. And when you look at the song books, I know I'm going off topic, but I did want to bring this up. When you look at these song books, I love them. They include old advertisements, like go down and dig up 10 cents and send it for a Rochester book collection. It includes kind of annotations for some of these older songs. Includes obviously the sheet music. And it often includes things like. Things like. You would never see in a school advertisement now, but things that definitely were common sense or things to be used at home. So there's an advertisement for like a wire fence. So again, this was 1903. So when we think about it, we think about the types of school children in America, rural America, rural Ohio, we're going to have advertisements for things like lamb, wire fencing. Or. Feed grain. There is a malleable range advertisement for Women. And I love it because there's a picture of a woman and actually slacks and a shirt, and she's holding a sledgehammer, like as if she's going to town on an old range. It's actually, you know, it, it talks things about that and it just includes. Just such awesome advertisements and sheet music. I'm not even joking. There's a song called tramp tramp tramp. And. The lyrics are in the prison cell. I sit thinking mother dear view, and there's like an advertisement on the opposite page about furniture. And it's just weird stuff like this that you're not going to see in modern books. And I love it so much. So anyway. To get back on track. I found one of these books called Canada songbook, and I am going to put it on the block. So please check a look at it. If this is something, if you're looking at an antique dealer or go to a state sales and you find these, let me know, I totally want to start collecting them. They're so great. I just love looking through them. So. Anyway, the sidetrack, this was from 1925. I'm going to post it on a blog. The only thing I really want to comment on really quickly is ding-dong Del when I was researching it, I completely forgot. It's a fictional town in a beautiful video game called Nino. CUNY. And it's a very, I don't know if it's from studio Ghibli, the artists, but it has very much that same art vibe and it's absolutely gorgeous in, there are a lot of nursery rhyme references in this game. So the main town is actually called dingdong bell. So I, I also did one. I mentioned that in case I have avid other video gamers out there, I'm a huge Gator myself and thought this, and then they're screaming in their head the whole time. Why didn't she mention this? So that's just something kind of silly. I wanted to reference. I had a hard time finding. Illustrations for this. I'm not sure why I've seen it before. But I did find a few illustrations one of which well, a number of which I'm going to mention on the blog. But the first image is by Margaret Toronto in 1915 in the second is by Henrietta Welbeck in 1911. So early 20th century depictions of ding-dong Dell. Again, I love the illustrations for a number of reasons, but. One of the reasons. Particularly is that you can see the fashion of the time. And so in one of these image, there's a little girl with a little like bucket hat, and I just want the hat so bad. That's just some fun things I wanted to mention that kind of go. Along with this nursery here. I'm just because I had some of the time to talk about it. So, what have we learned about quote, the oldest? English nursery rhyme. Well, first of all, it's a little bump that it's the oldest English nursery here. I'm going to argue this until my dying breath. We do know what's old. It does have a route folks on index number of 12,853. People claim. That's the oldest one, probably because it's one of the ones that we can trace back to its definitive roots in 1580 written by a man named John Lynch, who was an organist. And the cathedral who wrote the lyrics, Jack boy, homeboy news. The cat is in the, well, let us ring now for her now. Ding-dong ding-dong bell. As around that. You would sing in church. We know this is the time of Shakespeare. And in fact, this nursery rhyme appeared in two Shakespeare plays, including the Tempest in the merchant of Venice. We have talked about Thomas Raven's craft in his version in 1609, a period in Pamela music's miscellany. And I actually got to share an audio clip of what that would have sounded like in the early 17th century, which I thought was quite cool. We talked about composer, William stoner. Conard in 1585 and 1630, who had his own version and the most modern or canonical version appearing in mother Goose's melody and around 1765. And we talked about the famous James orchard, Holly. Well, very well known in folklore circles. And his version and nursery rhymes of England in 1842, as well as a more PG version that was written in 1949 by Jeffrey Hall. I included two audio clips or two audio versions of this. I included a version of a mini version of reverends craft work as well as a 1938 version from a children's choir. And my outro song is just a little bit extra. And I talked a little bit about miscellanea of this nursery rhyme, another nursery, or I'm including my fascination with early 20th century. Songbooks for schools as well as. This appearing in a video game, an adorable video game called Dino CUNY. So. That's this week's version of a task podcast. I've been meaning to cover this nursery rhyme a lot. Cause. More more often than not. When I start to delve into the research of nursery rhymes, I see all sorts of claims that this is the oldest English nursery rhyme, and it has become such a pet peeve for me over the weeks of me researching. So I really hoped you learned something today. It was really fun to research. I had a really great time going through illustrations and going through some of the fun history. And seeing all these different versions about cats and Wells. Yeah. And listening about the morality of it. And I hope you found it enjoyable. But today next week, where I will find another nursery rhyme to talk about and to delve into, and look at its history. And I will continue to talk about the weirdness. Of nursery rhymes.