The Tao of Chao Podcast
The Tao of Chao Podcast
Longevity, Literacy, and the Future of Aging with Surya Kolluri
What does it really mean to live longer — and how do we prepare for a future defined by extended lifespans?
In this episode of the Tao of Chao Podcast, Philip Chao welcomes Surya Kolluri, Head of the TIAA Institute, for an in-depth discussion on longevity, retirement planning, cognitive health, and the evolving realities of aging societies.
Key insights include:
• The rise of longevity literacy and why so few people understand their true lifespan
• How to build longevity fitness across financial, physical, cognitive, and social dimensions
• The deep connection between health and wealth — and why disparities are widening
• Why planning should focus on income stability, not just accumulated savings
• The growing threat of elder fraud and cognitive decline
• How social connection dramatically reduces mortality risk
• The emergence of age-friendly cities, intergenerational learning, and the longevity economy
Tune in for a grounded, human-centered conversation on how longer lives will reshape families, institutions, and society — and how each of us can prepare with clarity and intention.
👓 Learn more about our HOST
Philip Chao
Website: https://philipchao.us
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DISCLOSURE: Views expressed in the Tao of Chao podcasts are individual opinions and they do not represent the employers of each guest or the firm with which each guest is associated. Our podcasts are for educational and informational purposes only and should not be deemed or viewed as investment advice or recommendations. Please consult your personal financial advisor, investment expert, or investment fiduciary before taking any actions about your plan and investments.
I think this, of all the things you've talked about, is the most important. If retirees maintain two social the risk of mortality in the first six years of their retirement, if they drop one of those two, it goes up to 6%. And if they drop both connections, it goes up. So the difference between having two connections like a book club or the church group and no connections is six. I cannot emphasize enough the need to build solution connections now that will last through our laundry. It's a habit that we need to build. Welcome to the Tao of Chao podcast, where we will try to find balance and provide a clearer path forward in this uncertain world. Surya Kolluri is head of the TIAA Institute overseeing research on enhancing lifelong financial security and organizational effectiveness in higher education and broader nonprofit sector. The TIAA Institute was established 25 years ago to advance TIAA longstanding commitment to scholarship and strengthen the company's partnership with the higher education community. The institute provides consulting services for institutions as insights support. TIAA clients, consultants and policymakers. Soya joins the TIAA Institute from Bank of America, where he spent 16 years, most recently as managing director of the Retirement Research and Insights Team. Prior to that, he spent 14 years in corporate strategy consulting, first as attorney and then at Bain and Company. He's an advisor to the Wharton Social Impact Investing Initiative and sits on the board of Wharton Pension Research Council and the Ma and H chapter of the US Alzheimer Association. It's my pleasure. And here is Sonya. So yeah, it is wonderful to see you again. I know we just saw each other. I think it was that last week. We were in DC. Yeah, in DC, out of all places. And we learned a great deal. And I'd like to spend a little bit more time on that topic later. On how you scour the world to figure out the topic that we're going to talk about. And, and, on some level, they are all different, but on some level, we are all the same, right? I love to, not to expand on that. I'm not going to give it away until we spend time on that topic. And then many other topic. This area over the last 2 or 3 years that you and I, you have given me the pleasure to get to know you, given me the pleasure of learning from you. So, we want to have a wider audience to learn from you. So this is, hopefully, an opportunity for us to learn from you. Of course. You are the head of the, TIAA, Institute. What that word is sounds like a nonprofit. So you are not conflicted. You you're trying to do the best you can. So maybe we should start out by saying. Tell us a little bit about your organization. I know is part of TI. Maybe you can just share with the audience a little bit about that, and then we can get started. That's okay. Yeah. Phillip. Thank you. First of all, I really, appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation with you. Thank you. And, of course, as you've mentioned before, you and I have been in conversation already for many years, and it's. Yeah, this feels like it's going to be a continuation of that. Indeed. And of course, the Dia, you know, is a retirement, services oriented organization serving higher ed, and hospital systems. But through our asset management arm, Nuveen, we also serve the private markets. Yes. And corporations. And so we have instituted and we have celebrated our 25th anniversary a couple of years ago that, we've established the TIAA Institute, to look at these, issues from an objective research perspective. Yes. And of course, since we serve higher education, having an institute feels very natural because higher education institutions have institutes of and we look at topics around retirement security, we look at topics around what is impacting higher education and health care. We also look at issues around longevity, which I imagine is a fair bit of what we're going to be talking about today. And then you and I were in DC last week. We also care a lot about public policy and bringing retirement security issues to all of us. Yes. Fantastic. I mean, what a wonderful mission. If I may say in a cheeky way that, you are not short of a lifetime, appointment because that those issues are cannot be solved overnight. Yes. And, it's a journey. Yes. It's definitely a journey. And, and you what I have learned from from all the conversation we have, you are passionate about the subject. You enjoy it. I know, and if I, if I may be just personal for a moment that recently you wrote an article, talking about your father talking? Yes. The conversation, adorable. Is not the immediate word coming to mind, but it's adorable. It is wonderful to to see that conversation and recording the conversation in in black and white and also in conversational style. And in publishing it. Yeah. He's, he's a he's a professor himself. Yes. And, you know, celebrated his 89th birthday. Amazing. And so I was modeling both intergenerational dialog. Yes, at the same time, capturing some of his wisdom and experience that comes with 89 years of life. Fantastic. No, it was a fantastic. And I know I commented on it, but it was a it was a beautiful thing to watch, shall we say, and reflects back to I do not have the good fortune now, to have that opportunity. But you have given me thoughts about what I would have said to my father. What would I have asked my father? Yes. It is that human trait that until we have lost it, we don't really realize how precious it is. So I encourage you to do more of that as much as you can to make up for my deficits, for you. So that's wonderful. So one of the things that I think we're going to talk about, certainly about retirement, retirement, security, dignity, you know, all the things that are, near and dear to humanity. It's not only to America, to all over the world, we have the same issue, and this aging population, demographic change is not because we're living longer. It's also we're having fewer babies. We're having fewer marriages. So there's a major shift, a societal and global shift up our population, period. And how that a structural long term change to the globe and how we respond to that, how do we take care of the world as we all move forward? It's a tremendous, topic, that we would certainly like to touch on at least some. But let's start with longevity. You have said is the greatest gift of our time. Of course, we are living longer it. When I read recently, that, people born or babies born this this year has over a 50% chance or right around 50% chance of living to 100. And that is one of the populations growing very fast. More and more people are getting to that number. I heard Robert Redford died, just yesterday or the day before, and I think it's 90 or 89, which is still not very, very respectable, aged 89. I hope that I'm here to interview with you in my age. 89. Yeah. And we'll laugh about it, but, but just like everything in life is a balance, there's never everything just good. There's never everything just bad in theory. And it's a balance between the two and really finding how to deal with that balance. So talk a little bit about your institute, how you are thinking about this greatest gift of our times on on the one hand, but it comes with a lot of risks or, or dangers. Potential dangers. Yeah. Yeah. You know, as a person in finance, you and I are familiar with the term financial literacy. Yes. In 2022, we, we created a cousin term to financial literacy, and we called it longevity literacy. And the reason why we had this, thought was, as you said, many of us are recognizing that we are living longer. So we wanted to ask the question, do people understand that they're living longer? Yes, they know they're living longer. Are they planning for living longer? These are important questions. So we call that longevity literacy. And we created a research instrument around that. And and you know, this, it's gained a lot of currency and people are talking about longevity, literacy. And so the way I would define it is it's a person's understanding of how long they're likely to live and how that might impact their financial decisions, their lifestyle decisions. And, what we found and this was a US based survey, but I'm pretty confident it's going to replicate itself across the globe that only a third of our survey respondents demonstrated strong longevity in literacy. And here's what we found, which is a bit, surprising that men, more than women, underestimate their life expectancy. So which means that they're encouraging, to your point about risk, that incurring longevity risk. Yes. And so the counterpart so what do you do about longevity literacy? The counterpart to that is what am I called longevity fitness. So you mentioned that, hey, let's do a podcast when we're done. 89, but that assumes we're going to be fit, right? So what does longevity fitness mean? To me it means our capacity to extend vitality, to extend purpose. You've already established a purpose like, hey, at 89, let's have this conversation again. Right? Purpose function I need to be able to have cognitive skills, physical skills, my internal health, all those things. So we need to holistically prepare for these longer lives, financial, physical, cognitive, social and we'll get into each one of these. And so we should think about longevity literacy as a tool that enables us to get to the destination, which is longevity fitness. So I promise you, if I come to you and ask you to do a podcast, and I am drooling at the same time and don't remember, don't remember your name because I'm making new friends every day, I hope you will forgive me. At 89, I think you're actually right. I think this whole longevity literacy, longevity fitness. Start with longevity awareness. You have to you have to be not only aware, but really start thinking about the future. One of my favorite theme is yesterday me, today me and tomorrow me. Yeah. If we look at the yesterday me and we did, we are not reflective and we never learn anything about yesterday. Me we oversleep every day. We don't do anything about it. We know the future. Me is going to oversleep every day because we have done nothing. So I think the the literacy is really what you're saying is being aware, first of all, being aware and now you're aware, do something about it. Hopefully. Correct. Right. So there has to be motivation, and take action and then take action holistically. Yes. It's not enough to say I have enough money. Not good enough. Not enough to say my mind is working. You also say my body is working and I have social connections. That's a portfolio of activities. I'm not even sure people can deal with it presently. Having all of them, let alone thinking about the future. Exactly. We can certainly talk more about, diminished, mental capacity. I was on an a a a podcast, not podcast, a zoom sort of lecture, talking about, dementia, and the danger, and this, I want to use the word fascinate. It's not fast. It's scary. Yeah. But in in any event, it's almost like losing your soul. And this is just what what I thought. Yeah. So. So you're talking about really? Now we start talking about that. This really talk about health and wealth. You're really talking about money is not in that. Well, first of all, you can be all. Well, I have no money. It's not a very good place either. Right? Yeah. So I think sometimes you consider that it's two sides of the same coin and low where there's not one or the other is the entire coin you need. You have to sort. So share a little bit more or talk a little bit more about, you know, health and wealth and health is wealth. Wealth is health on some level. But wealth is wealth as well. So. So maybe you can share a little bit about your thoughts on that. Yeah. So I'll talk about that. And Philip I'll just put a pointer here as I wrap up my response to this question. I also want to talk about, the unit of health. So help me remember that. And I'll kind of close on that point on this health and wealth point, because I'm getting old. I'm not going to remember. I'm going to write it down. Okay. You don't know that. So, Philip, this point about health and wealth, two sides of the same coin is very important because I think this connection operates in both directions. Health impacts wealth. Well, the backs health. And it has profound implications access to quality health care, education, environments and of care. These are all very important. Health also drives wealth by maintaining earning capacity. What we found in our research is people want to continue working. And I don't mean they want to continue their same job, but they want to stay engaged on their terms for the timings that they want. So if you are healthy, you're able to do that, reducing catastrophic medical expenses that can, as you know better than anybody else, being an advisor yourself can devastate one's retirement savings. Yes. So here's what our research indicates. And stark disparities. There is a 12.5 year life expectancy gap between the affluent and not affluent. Huge gap. And that gap is widening. And so the gains by the affluent particularly the gap between healthspan and and lifespan, is much better if you have access to health care. And so what I for what we find in our research is this interconnection between health and wealth creates is a either a virtuous cycle. It's good better and better on both sides or a vicious cycle worse and worse on both sides. So it is very important to take hold of this on both sides of that coin. So to summarize, good health enables work and wealth accumulation, and having financial security means you can focus on your on your help. So those two go together. I so I do remember to talk about unit of health. So and I'll talk about that now as people in the industry that we are in, you're going to see a story. This sounds good that this is English. You're talking about this. But how do you measure and how do you know you're making progress on health and. Well, great point. And my answer to the question is the unit of health. And this is just like longevity literacy. We're just coining this term unit of health. So a unit of health for me is if you did all the right things, can you get a metric that says you earned an extra day of life span? So I eat better, I sleep better, I exercise, I manage my stress, I feel safe about my financial security. Have I added to my life? Because if you have 100 year life, but you get, let's say, Alzheimer's at age 85, you've got 15 years of what are you going to do with that? So all the good habits we can inculcate, may I answer that question, I wouldn't know. I know, yes, you wouldn't know or may not have friends or 1st May not have enough financial security. But if you did all the right things, every time you do something right, you add an extra day. You're out of health. Do some more right things. Yeah. And as we know in finance, when you do the right things and you add those extra days, it compounds on itself. So. So the unit of health concept Philip is a dollar is a unit of wealth or a euro Otto Yuan right. A unit of health is an extra added day of lifespan. That's the measure that gets the dollar and the unit of health together to measure health and well-being. So it's not only the if I may add to it, I'm sure that's what you meant is not only living one more day, but living one more healthy day is that day. Would you know it's worth living for? So we say this is a this is a very important point, but let me add my finance economist hat on this. Right. Yeah. So if you have a unit of currency with low inflation and a unit of currency with high inflation, the unit of currency with low inflation is more valuable. Yes. Similarly, an extra day that's healthy has lower inflation in health terms than and not fascinating. I need to reflect on that after this entire episode to to start thinking, you know, seriously about that. And yes, and it's really, really, really important. So when you think about this unit of health, you're really talking about a way of thinking about staying healthy, good diet, good exercise, whatever. All that means we can, you know, define that, so that we can extend, not only extend our lives, which is obviously nobody really want to die right away, but more importantly, to extend our life with quality. Correct. Right. So we call that matching lifespan with health. So may I, may I suggest another term in finance? You're going to add alpha to your correct. Yes. You manage inflation. You're at alpha. Exactly. Exactly. So it's really adding value or at least capturing value. Correct. In one's life. It how important is that? As I mentioned to you, I was watching this sort of whatever you want to call it, that talked about, according to the Alzheimer's Association, is $400,000 average for somebody suffering from Alzheimer's from beginning to end. That's a significant amount of money. And some people don't even have 400 to retire on the entire life. And just on the last, I don't know, ten years of their lives, or maybe even less. It costs that amount of money. Talk about inflation briefly, since you mentioned inflation, you know, we haven't talked about inflation for two decades. Then all of a sudden now everybody's talking about inflation. It was funny. I'm from the baby boomer generation. And so I said, it's our rotten luck. I'm sure within our lifetime, as we're ready to retire, inflation comes back roaring back. Right. And sure enough, I mean, I've been thinking about that for, for a decade. And suspicious that inflation is dead in any way, shape or form. It's not dead at all. It's just in hibernation, perhaps, and the seasons change and, the hibernation is over. The animal wakes up and hears inflation. That is a real risk, isn't it? Surya. And if we're not careful, even if we done a lifetime of savings and all that, we're still going to fall behind. We will. And and and back on the topic of health and wealth. If you don't manage those two, then the inflation could cause even greater harm than otherwise. Yeah. Literacy gap you talked about. Let's just spend a little bit of time. How do you how do you think is a one of many. What one of many ways to bring that gap narrower. How do we educate the masses. Is this through employers. Because that's where most people well, I assume people who are working relies on their employer to provide retirement and health care. Sounds like a natural place, to perhaps to expose, people to minimizing or be aware of longevity, the risks that we talked about that the greatest benefit and gift as well as risk, how do you think about implementing something like that? Yeah. So so, Philip, this is something I enjoy thinking about and experiencing, unlike other technical topics that you and I have spoken many times to many audiences. Yes, this topic of longevity and I know this from my experience. Yes, I can engage anyone from an Uber driver to my colleague, to my uncles and aunts, to my neighbors. Everybody is interested in this longevity and how long I work. Right. It's just that they have not been engaged on this topic, which means how do you bring it up in a non-threatening, engaging manner so that people can be we can discuss this. Yes. And so rather than saying, have you saved enough money, which is a scary question, asking the asking the question around how long do you expect to live? What do you plan to do? Did you know that, we've been accorded a longevity bonus? Did you know that a baby born today has a one inch three chance of getting to a 100? All these are fascinating questions for the average person that we're going to meet with. So using that insight to say, let's engage people in this question of longevity. And through that ask them about their purpose and through that, then say, have you done all the right things to achieve what you want to achieve? And so I think this longevity gap is for no fault. People have just not thought about this. Even if you think about financial literacy that's been studied for ten years, 15 years, 20 years, but longevity and literacy is only three years old, right? So it's a new reframing. And I think we are onto something that through this topic on longevity, we can engage people in a much broader manner using all the techniques that you and I know it could be webinars, it could be seminars, it could be class curriculum, it could be public policy, it could be public service announcements, all those things. So it has to be a conscious effort by a governing body. It could be an employer, it could be an association. It could be you could be educational institution. Right, right. But but but the good news I'm sharing is this is not each of spinach, right. People will welcome the stop. Understood? Understood. That's great. So we talk about longevity. We talk about how, you know, there's interest. There's not an it's not like, oh, don't talk to me about longevity. I don't care about that. Right, right. Oh, by the way, I'll tell you one small anecdote. I did a study on, caregiving, and I was speaking. I was speaking to, a senior HR executives about benefits around caregiving. I was speaking to journalists, of course, on the topic of caregiving. Universally, people will not start with the question. People will start with the story. People will say, my uncle, my aunt, my parent, my sibling, and then ask the question. It's a very human, engaging topic, particularly things like longevity and care. That's a great idea. I I've heard that, but, not not what you said, but heard people sharing about. Right. Caregiving, which is, you know, it's going to be a bigger and bigger issue as we live longer, no matter how healthy you are, one day you're going to get frail. One day you will need help. And typically family, those who have family, member somebody will stand up and help, at a cost. At a cost. You know, Jimmy Carter's, wife, Rosalyn Carter, first lady said you will either be a caregiver, or you will need a caregiver. There is no escape. Caretaking or caregiving is one or the other, but it's happening. And many times it's giving and then taking. Yes. It may be different for both. It could be both. And it could be from different people. Right. You give to them and then you take from some others. Exactly. I don't even know how equipped families are in even giving. Giving. Because by giving meaning, they are giving up something else to to be the, That's right. The provider. And there's a cost to that. It's not free. That's, I mean, I don't want to just talk about problems. I mean, there's there's a happy part as well. If you take care of yourself, you have the health, and then you have the wealth and you can truly enjoy a fulfilling, less stressful life, into your golden years and beyond. We haven't talked a little bit. We haven't talked too much about when you talked to the Uber driver and his very he or she is very engaged with about longevity. I didn't know people living to 100 or I you know, I haven't thought much about it. Thank you for bringing it up. Yeah. I'm going to give you a five star as a as a customer sitting in the back, yada yada yada. Then you bring up and say, by the way, do you know what's your number? Do they understand what that means? Yeah, I so I'm sure you're in the same camp as me. I dislike the question and I just like the answer to that question. It's exactly because you and I are different human beings. Yes. And a number means different things to you and me, because it's really about my family, my circumstance, my health, what I want to do, what I have saved, my my situation with my house. Yes. Any number of factors. So, so I really think we should not, as an industry, as a culture, as a human species, we should not be thinking about retirement. Is about reaching a particular number or a balance. But rather, do we have all the necessary tools to have longevity? Fitness that includes financial aspects as a tool. So I would emphasize, having a steady income over accumulation. So instead of asking, do I have enough saved, which all of us are familiar with that question, I think it might be better to say, Will I have enough income? Will I have enough income on a monthly basis? We'll have enough income on an annual basis. So this will I think and I think you might agree with this, connects planning to actual living expenses and to lifestyle maintenance and the things that you want to do. And also highlights longevity risk, which is the remember I said, when we do this research, people underestimate their lives and they're incurring inherently longevity risk by having income. You've managed that longevity risk. So so these are important ways in which I prefer income to a not so I'm sure you you appreciated the ad very much. You couldn't wait to go home and watch it when, one I think a Dutch owned company to talk about what your number and it that guy on the ad carrying this humongous number running around the world. I'm sure you were having a moment, of frustration of what on earth are they doing? And how distorted, that very thing is. Like everybody's shooting for a same number or even though they mean to be personalized, what's your number? But we tend to think there is a number that actually isn't a number at all. So based on our conversation, it seems to me personalization is a very important thing, not only in accumulation, but in thinking about accumulation in the sense that thinking about how do I drive that income in a personal way for the rest of my life. So. So I'll give you both an anecdote and research on this point, please. So, so on. My father, I said, is a retired professor. So he gets two checks. He gets one check from Social Security, he lives in Princeton, and he gets a second check from TIAA because he's a professor. Right. And so when I ask him, hey, are you worried about the stock market? He goes, well, I get two checks. You know, I'm not worried about what the stock market is doing. He has some money in the stock market, but it is not a source of anxiety. So that's just a personal anecdote to say that our research shows that people who do not have a steady income in retirement are reluctant spenders. Yes, because they're constantly frozen by what's the market doing to my balance. Whereas if they had a steady income, they're like, okay, I know I have my next paycheck coming so I can let my money if I left over. You kind of make gains in the marketplace. And so they go from being a reluctant spender to, not worrying about spending. So is it fair to say that, the focus is not how big a mountain of wealth I have at age 65, 67, whatever the retirement age? That's not the question we should be asking. The question we should be asking is, since I don't know how long I'm going to live, assuming most of us can guess what we want to make sure that we don't outlive age. That's right. Stream of income. That's right. You're managing longevity risk, right? You really are is not wealth is stream of predictable income or income that I need. Correct. And until we satisfied that wealth is somewhat meaningless because it doesn't translate to. What does that mean? Am I thinking correctly? You're thinking correctly. And I think that's the right framing. And I'd like to urgently get that framing out to everybody who's planning their time. So we talked about personalization. We talked about quantified ability to quantify what it is that you need. So there is obviously a planning component no matter how rudimentary we need to think a little bit. You know, I spent quite a bit of time in the retirement industry, both on the personal side where I have individual clients and families. You know, they are fortunate families because they can afford, an advisor. They can they they have the wealth, and they are able to do many of the things and but not everybody has that. How do you think about those who are saying, listening to this and say, well, I have no idea. I mean, you know, how do I, I mean, so one framework apparently is essential living expense. So the idea just to make sure that we are all on the same page is that out of $100 that you have a portion of that goes to your basic rent utility, you know, your basic living expense. Anything more than that is a discretionary spending. You know, I want to go around the world three times as well. Okay, well, you don't have to go around the world, but if you want to, you need to save for it. But I do need to pay my rent or pay my mortgage or my utility bills. God forbid. No. Next, Netflix being one of my utility bills or whatever. So do you think in those terms first, do you think about essential living expenses? Make sure we at least take care of that and then beyond or how do you what's framework you use? Yeah, the framework I use is kind of a housing framework. So what I mean by that is you have a floor, a mattress, a comforter and a roof. Yeah. Right. So to me, the floor is Social Security, which means I have a solid foundation, but it's not comfortable to sleep on. Yes. So I need a mattress that that's on the floor so I can sleep comfortably. And that's the income you're paying yourself. And then the comforter on top of the mattress is some variable form of income that can either grow with the market, but it's, it's it's the, the mattress part of it should be fixed. The comforter part of it is a little variable, but it's still an income. And then the roof on top is money left over that you can put in the marketplace. So so that's the metaphor I use, which is easy to remember, I think, and it kind of gives people an idea of how to kind of generate income streams. And so I think of it is very similar. I think of it layer of cake, you know, definitely a cake of the base layer. And then the cream left side and another little, little gray, I have another. And ultimately the cherry on top. That's when I go around the world, right? Yeah. I may never have a cherry, but at least I still have cake to eat, right? So I can eat it to sort of thing. No, I'm Surya, I think that's that's right. But I think it, metaphor. Like for me, I think we can both, speak very simply about it. I think that people do need to take their time to understand what are those layers? How do we make sure we have the floor? How do we make sure that we have enough for the next layer, that the mattress? And then what is the comforter, to sort aspirationally how do I end up getting the roof correct? You are not homeless without the roof, so to speak, right? Well, without the cherry on top, whatever that means. So I think more tools needs to be made available, at least self-help. If not everybody can afford, a true fiduciary advisor. Well, I would say, I wouldn't forget that many companies where we are employed provide both, and the ability to save and also provide advice either digitally or in person. So those who have access as an advisor at work should take advantage of it. Terrific. So let's go back to, you know, cognitive decline for a moment. Because that's I guess I sometimes forget where I put my keys. I don't think I have declined that much, but I do think that that's the key, like, whatever. But I can I can beginning to understand the shoes that they, they wear walking down the street because they have forgotten even who they are. I mean, it's it's not only possible, I can understand it. Right. So because of that, make us think about, not only risk about health and risk about quality of life, those are obvious, but also risk for bad actors. Right. So how do you how do you think about that? Because one of the things that I spoke with my client, and I'll give you a very quick example, I have, a client who have no children, husband and wife, you know, very well off for for what they do. I manage their money. I've been managing them for, you know, 20 somewhat years after they sold the business and they came in with a lot of money. But one thing we end up talking about is that I said, well, sir, what happened? If you pass and your wife is on loan or vice versa? I said, well, I will be, you know, loneliness is one of those things which we can talk about as well. But I'm really worried about who is going to be the caregiver and not only caregiving in the physical sense, but how about my money? What about who make decisions, you know, who is going to advocate? Who's going to play the fiduciary role? I said, we are not that far from age. I probably won't be the right person for you, but I think is absolutely true. How do we find that? Very who? Watch out for our benefit only and will not cheat for cheat us out would do all the right things for our best interests. It's unsolvable thing because there's no such career. I mean, there's no such profession. I mean, we can create one. Maybe today you and I decided, okay, let's start a new nonprofit of creating these fiduciaries who are advocates both from a health care standpoint and financial, so we can take the risk, minimize or reduce the possibility of risk. But until then, what are some of your thoughts about this combination of cognitive decline? Just ponder aging. And the vulnerability. Yeah. This is this this is this is a super important topic. Yeah. And when I have, in fact, tomorrow morning, I do the event with clients on those. The, the interest in this topic is very high. I think for understandable reasons. I just finished my term serving on the board of the New England, chapter of the Alzheimer's Association. So I'm kind of, like, really, like, focused in on this topic. And, and as you currently pointed out, it it poses escalating risks. Yes. As scams and cyber scams become more personalized and more persistent. Yes. And what we find new research is that older Americans have lost really nearly $1.9 billion to fraud. Wow. With those over eight years old, experiencing losses three times more. Yeah, more than younger victims. And so this is not, I think, just a financial issue. It's a longevity fitness challenge. We talked about longevity risk and we talked about having money to protect you from longevity risk. But what if you're scared right. So it's really part of this longevity fitness regime to have multi-layer protection for your hard earned. And so so some of the things that we need to focus on is healthy habits. I think it's a joint responsibility, is the responsibility of the individual on their families to have good habits, proper passwords, changing passwords at the right time, multi-factor authentication, all those things on the one hand. On the other hand, organizations that are providing services also having ever evolving sophistication to ward off, increasing sophistication of the fraud. So, so this is a big issue, that I think individuals are interested in companies interested in. But it is a constant battle. You can't say I'm set. You have to be on it. So sad to so sad to even hear that. Right? I mean, it's what society are we in. And also the social media is not helping because it's being exploited. And by the way, the $1.9 billion I'm citing, you and I, I think will agree it's understated. Yes, yes, yes. And I think it's I think the biggest is under this is the point. It is understated because it's under exactly. And because they're embarrassed by it's embarrassed all kinds of things. By the way, let me give you a psychological inside here. It's not this. They're just embarrassed, which is true. But also, hey, if I say this, you're going to take away my car keys. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're going to take away my freedom. You're going to take away my ability to manage my money. Yes. Which is a very deep psychological yes. Sense that people don't want to give up. So this is complicated. This is an immediate response to it. I do not have any prepared thoughts. I'm just immediate response. How do you see, And I'm going to use AI, and it's almost like you cannot have any conversation without bringing those two letters up, which is to me is kind of crazy, but it is the reality. How does AI and, humanoid robotics, properly programed with, with some kind of installation of trust within that system certified or authenticate? What, whatever that may be, help the elderly from mobility. So we will ultimately have driver's car one day. I don't know when that may be. I mean, you know, in a, in a grand way, not just one small little place, with all that help us from some of these issues. That's number one. Number two, let us not have control over 100% of our wealth. Let the income come from somewhere that the most they can steal is that one month where the income, not 26 months of income. You know, this is this is a huge point, right? So, so the the value of having an income stream is what you articulated, which is I'm protecting against loss of all my savings. So maybe two months or three months of income. Yes. But I think the broader point is, you know, the, the, the scam and the troubles are getting increasingly sophisticated. So our defense needs it increasingly sophisticated. But the vulnerability with the levels of sophistication going up is the scale of the losses are higher. So in the past, it was probably one person or two persons or ten persons, but now it could be an entire area. It could be an entire segment. And so the scale of the risk is pretty high. So we have to be evermore vigilant. I'm stressed already just having this 41 minute and 23 seconds with our time position. I don't know if it is really a blessing to live until I have Alzheimer and die or just die soon. I say saying let's, let's, let's consider longevity a bonus and and and strive for fitness. And you know how hard an investment to give Alpha. You know how hard that is. Yeah. And to and to do that requires discipline, self-awareness and discipline. And those are two, qualities that most people don't have, and certainly not half on a perpetual basis. I mean, you know, yeah, I'm going to I'm going to start exercising. I do it for two months and I stop working out, you know, it's not just a momentary thing that you somehow just remember, but it has to build in habits, build in good habits that is meaningful. And you look at that as a reward, not as some kind of thing that you begrudgingly undertake. But let me let me, in that case, lift your spirits. Thank you. With the with the following. With the following, the analogy. Yes. I think the average human being today in 2025. Yeah. Lives in a far better circumstance than the wealthiest noble person in the 1700s. Yes, yes. Right. So the wealthiest person living in a castle was not better off than the average human being on the planet today, right? More technology, more help, more longevity, more access, more literacy. Right. So individual circumstances might look confusing and chaotic, but the long arc is amazing progress. Yes. I still not completely over it. Yeah, but but thank you. Thank you for diluting my anxiety. And I want for, let's talk one other things and, and I, you know, I enjoy you so much that I, you know, time just flies by. So I apologize. I just keep keep going, to 2 to 2 issues out there that I see that is not new. And you know, this immediately. Men have a tougher problem, in retirement than women. Generally. Generally speaking, only, one of the issue of a men is that they have a smaller social circle. Their life is defined by their work or what they have done most of their lives. And when they let go of that, they are in a way lost in a way that they realize, gosh, I only know two people who are not related to work. And I'm not even sure I know those two really well, and men are just not very good at that. And I mean, I was sharing this with a friend of mine. I said, you know, men cannot. Surya. It will be unusual for me to pick up a phone and say, hey, show you what you're doing right now. So I'm working with you. I have to go shopping with Philip Travis at this. The weirdest guy in the world. What the heck is that? I know I don't want to go shopping. We almost have to find a reason. Hey, do you want to fix a car together? Do you want to go to a softball game? Do you know there has to be a reason? An activity that we can do is we just cannot spend time together. It's cultural. The I'm talking about and sort of contributes to this isolation in a sense. I don't first of all, I, I already have a small circle. By the time when I quit work, I have an even smaller circle. And then my friends are dying. Well, if I have no circle, I'm circle us, and then my wife dies along for the rest of my life, and that becomes a real issue. So I think that's one challenge. And let me just sort of at the second challenge, the second, the second challenge, the challenge is really, for women who live long enough, they they have gone through a life of glass ceiling. They have gone through a life of stopping work to raise children. They have gone through a life of the primary caregiver for their parents, for their loved ones, and they've been in and out of workplace and, you know, the system. They don't normally go back in and can't wait to get promoted the next day. They're going to go back and do it all over again and so they they tend to under safe not because they don't want to safe. They they just don't have the opportunity like a men would. They tend to take on less risk, which is a good thing. But you have longevity. You do need to take on more risks to give you that. So they are under saving. They have less return on their money and they live longer. And so their husband dies off, or their significant other dies of or whatever of a roommate die off. And so they on Paul with the one that's most at risk from a poverty standpoint. Those two are different issues, but real issues. Have you thought about what can a society do and what should we be teaching or informing the population about this? You know, all the things we've talked about, we've talked about money, we've talked about longevity, we've talked about cognitive health, we've talked about scams. I think this of all the things we've talked about is the most important. The Stanford research that shows that being alone is equivalent to smoking a pack of cigarets a day, right? I mean, just keep that in mind as I talk about social connections. It is a hidden variable in longevity planning. It's a very profound variable. Yeah. What what one of the famous research projects around, socialization shows that if retirees maintain two social connections, the risk of mortality in the first six years of their retirement is 2%. If they drop one of those two, it goes up to 6%. And if they drop both connections, it goes up to 12%. Wow. So the difference between having two connections like a book club and a church group, yes and no connections is six times. Right? So I cannot emphasize enough the the need to build social connections now. Yes, that will last through our longer years. It's a habit that we need to build. And there is a there's a Harvard study and, the, the Harvard, it's called the Harvard Project. And, the book, that came out of that project is called The Good Life. And, so they attract people over the decades and ask towards the end what made their life most meaningful. Is it money, is it titles, is it fame? Is it the size of your home? Is it your reputation. Is it awards? No, it's social connections. So so this is a profoundly important topic. We don't talk about it enough. But if you think about longevity fitness, I think this has the most impact. I said to my wife, jokingly and to some serious, I said, the only reason I want to come back after I die is to see how many people attend my my, my funeral. And I think that will only be true if you, if you are alive, will be one of them. And I don't know who the other one is, so I will. What I will say is, I would like to hitch a wagon with you, sir. We will remain friends for as long as we can. Right. So that at least I am in short of one connection if I don't have to. So, so so that's a go on me. You can go. It's the imposition that I apologize that I'm putting on you. Thank you. Thank you for that. Let us conclude on, you know, we already talked about I mean, there's a lot more to talk about. Obviously, and we only spend a little bit of time today. But hopefully we have covered a lot of the, the main issues that challenges us, in having the joy of living long, but also the anxiety of living long, it might my, my mother used to always say the lucky ones are the stupid ones, because the stupid ones always have people who are more responsible take care of them. I'm not so sure that's the case in aging. Because this is not a society, you know, also, culturally were different. I know you come from a different culture, and I do too. And that, you know, in the old days, my on my uncle, my grandparents, my, you know, cousins all live within striking distance from all of us. And we have a community. So this loneliness and we may not like all our cousins maybe would we don't even not only do not we dislike them or what have you but but it's a is an ecosystem that we're familiar, which is really important when we age. I think being familiar and is not being shocked all the time. And also there's a a way of helping each other naturally that has been missing since the nuclear family of 1950s. I mean, this country has already developed that for 50, 100 years, whatever. And so how do we regain? Yeah. Well, we know what we need, but we don't have a societal structure or a reward system, that gravitates our actions towards that destination. So. So I have some hope here. Okay. So this is the decade, of, healthy aging, as, coined and agreed upon, by all the countries, at the UN and the W.H.O., and we have the exact midpoint of the decade of healthy aging. And as part of healthy aging, cities have adopted age friendly programs. So, so basically, the culture is beginning to absorb what it means to have a planet of older and older population. We just published a study called, The Future of Higher Education in the ERA of Longevity. So imagine students in colleges not just 18 years old, but 55 years old. Yes. So so rethinking higher education, rethinking careers, rethinking public policy, rethinking, what is the size of the font in the grocery store. Yes. Right. Rethinking stairways to a subway. Rethinking as I modeled with my dad, intergenerational dialog. All of these are cultural things. Age friendly cities. It's happening all around us. So now that I've mentioned this, as we go for a walk around town and you start looking around, you will see this age friendliness is cropping up everywhere, and the last thing I'll say is there's money in longevity. So we think of longevity as a oh, it's a it's going to be a problem for Social Security. It's going to be a problem for Medicare. But rather I think if you frame it as the longevity economy, we need to build homes. We need to provide caregiving services. Pharmaceuticals. In your world, the golden age of advice. This is all going to add to GDP. So I think longevity, both for GDP reasons, economic reasons and cultural reasons, is going to be a transforming force. And the decade of healthy aging is the catalyst to make that culture change. I am not going to ask you any more question, because I love that ending, of hope and aspiration. At the end of the day, it takes a village, takes a city, it takes a planet. Well, exac I was going to go all the way there from a country to a to to to all over the world, because we are all aging, probably more rapidly than we thought of in the past. 8 billion is about the top of the number of people going to be alive. And, and that there's a massive shift just getting older and older. This has been, a fantastic conversation. I, I expected that, and thank you. Thank you for all that wisdom and research and information that you have share. Because those are important for anybody who's listening, either because they are older parents or they are getting older, or they just need to be more aware about saving for retirement. Because I truly believe that you have to pull on your own bootstrap. You cannot be entitled anymore. You shouldn't. Especially if we're going to live longer. When we think about not everyone going to be perfect when we when we age, some much genetic, genetic, genetic reasons that we get sick, it's not because we did anything per se. So we have a lot of it go back to financial left tail risk. So that the risk that we don't like is the left tail. That can hit us at any time. Rampant inflation is a left tail risk, potentially. We love the right tail risk. We live on over ripe old age, 108 and never got sick. That will be great. But neither side is, realistic. Is somewhere in the middle, and we need to be more prepared. So I, I thank you, Surya, for for spending the time and sharing your thoughts and your research and hope that we can we can do this again and learn about. We didn't have time to to to really learn about your research globally, about saving for retirement. And how they deal with similar type of situation, perhaps somewhat differently, but still the same challenges. Kim Jong UN beings are human beings and all countries are aging. So that that's the that's the truism. That's the truth. So again, thank you, sir. Thank you so much for, for for the time. And I look forward to spending more time with you again. So it was a wonderful conversation and I thank you for the opportunity. Thank you. You can always find more episodes by visiting Philip child.us/podcast, or find us on your favorite podcast app. You can always leave us feedback, ask, question or request a topic for us to discuss by sending an email to p c at Philip chao.us. Views expressed in the Tao Chao podcast are individual opinions, and they do not represent the employees of each guest or the firm. Each guest is associated. Our podcasts are for educational and informational purposes only, and should not be deemed or viewed as investment advice or recommendations. Please consult your personal financial advisor, investment expert or investment fiduciary before taking any actions about your plan and investments.
