S6E2: Language as a Bridge: Lessons from Senegal with Katy Wheelock

Norah Jones talks with Katy Wheelock, a French educator with 30+ years of classroom experience and the founder of Vive l’Experience, about why language learning is ultimately about connection, not perfection—and how centering Francophone Africa (especially Senegal) transforms teachers, students, and communities.

Katy shares her personal path to Senegal, what teacher immersion experiences unlock, and why being seen—down to pronouncing someone’s name correctly—can change everything.

You’ll Hear About

• Why Katy felt drawn to French-speaking Africa and how she ended up studying in Dakar
• How Senegal became a lifelong part of her teaching and professional mission
• What transforms teachers most when they experience Senegal through immersion
• Practical ways teachers bring Senegal into lessons (food, clothing, drinks, hospitality, cultural norms)
• Why Francophone Africa matters for the future of French worldwide
• How immersion experiences restore teachers who feel isolated or burned out
• How Katy approaches colonial history with care, humility, and Senegalese expertise
• The “power of names” story (Diallo/Jalo) and what it means to be truly seen
• What Senegalese communities gain from these exchanges
• Katy’s take on AI: impressive language tools, but human connection still matters most

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Transcript

Norah Jones (00:00)
Over and over, the most exciting people in the language field are people that say things like, language learning is about connection, not perfection. People want to be seen. People want to be heard. It's about respecting people, down to pronouncing their name correctly. My guest this week, Katie Wheelock.

is a French educator with more than 30 years of classroom experience. And she's the founder of Vive l'Experience, an organization that designs immersive, culturally grounded experiences for language educators. And her work centers on French speaking Africa. Listen to her reflections, listen to her experiences, listen to her invitations, and enjoy the conversation that I enjoyed so much.

with Katie Wheelock

Norah Jones (01:00)
I am very, very excited that you're here today, my friend. Katie, why don't you, on behalf of making sure that everybody knows who they're hearing on this podcast, introduce yourself, what you do, and how it's related to the kind of concept of it's about language.

Katy Wheelock - Vive (01:17)
Um, so I'm Katie Wheelock. I'm a French teacher in Arlington, Virginia, and I began teaching French 33 years ago. So it's been a while. Uh, I also own an organization, a small business to take French teachers in particular on French immersion experiences to Senegal and Tunisia. That's, that's it in a nutshell.

Norah Jones (01:42)
And I don't think people were expecting to hear the words Senegal and Tunisia when you were talking about excursions. So let's start with that. Here's a call that seems out of what people would expect to hear when they hear the words French teacher. Why that connection and why those two countries?

Katy Wheelock - Vive (02:00)
Okay, it goes back a long ways. I began teaching French when I was 22 years old, and I taught in Pennsylvania for two years, and then I moved to Virginia and taught French here for two years. And during that time period, I just felt a draw to go to Africa, to French speaking Africa, and to learn more about it, because it was definitely something that was lacking from my undergraduate

⁓ French program. And so I began looking into ways that I could go overseas and ideally have somebody pay for it for me. I began the application process for a Rotary Ambassadorial Scholarship with the local club here at the Virginia level. And it took about a year and a half of applications before ⁓ I found out that I was selected.

And it wasn't part of a study abroad program. Part of the deal with the scholarship that I was getting was that I had to enroll directly into a university. I had selected, you have to choose five locations, back then you had to choose five locations in three different countries. And I listed my top two as Senegal, pretty confident that Rotary would accept that.

I ended up moving to Senegal on this scholarship to study African literature and African civilizations in French at the University in Dakar. I went there as a newlywed. I'd just been married in July and my husband was with me during the whole application process. And then, you know, got married and we moved to Senegal with our two suitcases each and thought we'd be there for an academic year, but we both loved it so much we decided to stay longer. So we ended up staying

an additional year, which since I no longer had the scholarship opened up other teaching opportunities for me. So I did a lot of different kinds of tutoring, substitute teaching at the international school. I ended up having a really fascinating job working for the International Organization for Migration, working with refugees, African refugees who had been approved for resettlement in the United States.

And my role was to give them a cultural orientation, kind of a two-day crash course on how to survive in the United States once they moved here. We did role plays on job interviews, talked about kind of rules of society, legalities of things that they would need to know when they came to the United States. with that, I got to travel to many countries around Africa. So that's kind of where it all started. And that was in the late 90s.

So since then Senegal has always been a part of my life as a French language teacher and the kinds of things I do presenting at conferences and how I teach my students.

Norah Jones (04:35)
there's a lot of enlightenment to be brought inside the education community. So we'll start with that, but since my audience is also outside of the educational enterprises themselves, potentially we can take a look at how you have experienced or what stories you have to tell about the kinds of change perspectives and opportunities for those that are.

not directly teachers of or even students of language. So you can kind of keep that in mind. So as we're taking a look then at what is it that you have found to be the most impact from this particular interesting focus that you have, this life-changing approach.

Katy Wheelock - Vive (05:18)
Wow, that's a really big question. think, obviously, a lot of it goes way beyond language teaching. So I would say for me, a lot of it is learning to be in the moment and to be open to opportunities and experiences in the moment as they present themselves.

When I look back on my time when I lived in Senegal, was, know, the internet was not used a whole lot back then. We didn't have a lot of information. So a lot of what I learned, I had to learn in the moment. And some things I just accepted as they came my way. sometimes curiosity would push me to ask questions. But sometimes it was just a general acceptance of that moment in the situation.

And I think that has served me well throughout the years because some things that we might be more closed off to if we just are patient and listen and sometimes accept and sometimes ask questions, I think that can serve us well.

Norah Jones (06:20)
What kind of story do you have of watching transformation of teachers that have come along with you? Let's start with them. Where... Yeah.

Katy Wheelock - Vive (06:31)
Yeah, so I guess because I've been sharing Senegal through my French language teaching in the classroom, it became natural to also share that with other teachers. And so first I started doing that by presenting at conferences or professional development and would share use of authentic resources, giving people enough of a...

background on Senegal so they could then use that as a springboard for the kinds of things that they were doing. And over the years, people kept saying to me, Katie, when are you going to take us to Senegal? We want to come with you. And I realized that that was going to be the perfect opportunity to really share Senegal with people. So when I planned my first teacher trip, it was a group of about 16

French language educators from all around the United States, high school and university professors. And some were native French speakers, some like me learned it as a second language, some probably a third language. And for the teachers, I think part of what was most transformational, I think was seeing how

how accepted we were as outsiders in the Senegalese community. So quickly, so fully being welcomed. And we're a different kind of tourists when we go. We're not just there to see the sights. We're not there for, we're there for more than sun, sand and surf, right? We're there to interact with local schools, to meet teachers, students. We have meals with local families.

and Senegal is known for the country of hospitality. Personally, based on my experiences in Africa, maybe 15 different countries, I think most countries also feel they're the country of hospitality. I think it's been true almost everywhere I've gone. But I think the teachers have really been really touched by the level of hospitality in Senegal and the connections that they were able to make so quickly.

with the people that they were meeting or walking with as we were on our way to do a visit or if we were doing a workshop learning how to do drumming or batiks. those connections really, I think, open up the door for more transformation.

Norah Jones (08:47)
What did they come back with? How did they apply their experience when they came back?

Katy Wheelock - Vive (08:52)
I think it's come about in a lot of different ways. I think there are teachers who maybe, if they're doing a unit on food, then maybe they integrate some of the foods that people eat in Senegal, or how people eat. What is considered polite when you're eating a meal in Senegal might be different than what is considered polite if you're eating a meal.

in the United States. And of course, that varies widely from culture to culture. So those kinds of things are good opportunities of sharing different kinds of cultural values beyond just, it fish and rice or what kind of vegetables? Same thing with the dress. I think a lot of teachers are, they have a unit where they're talking about clothing, but in this case, they can talk about how clothing

is representative of local cultures and local religions and what's considered a polite way to dress for one occasion versus another occasion. So those kinds of things. Just yesterday, one of the teachers who traveled with me shared on a Facebook group that she had done a tasting of drinks in her class. And so she offered her students a chance to try Cafe Tuba.

which can open up a conversation about local small businesses and also the role of religion and a different kind of coffee. Bissop, which is a red hibiscus drink. Buoy, which is a baobab fruit drink. Senegalese mint tea, which is a lot of people I think are familiar maybe with Moroccan mint tea, but it's a little bit different in Senegal, but the same kind of idea of that moment of sharing and taking your time and not rushing through.

⁓ an event. So I see it being integrated in a lot of different ways, whether it's not necessarily just a, we're going to do a unit on Senegal now. It's integrated in different ways, I think that help bring the language alive, but also create new interests for students.

Norah Jones (10:51)
And speaking of the students and the students' families, what kind of experiences have you heard about or experienced yourself where the young people have understood something that they would not have gotten otherwise in their families?

Katy Wheelock - Vive (11:07)
Well, I guess because we teach such a diverse student body or maybe we teach a very homogenous student body as teachers, I think it gives students an opportunity to see a different side of the French speaking world. Many teachers, you know, probably know a lot about France.

and teach about European, French countries or Quebec or maybe even Louisiana. But this, think, opens up a new dimension to what does a French speaker look like? What is their life like? And that might be something that many of our students can identify with and help them feel more connected. Or if you're somebody like me who grew up in central Pennsylvania in a school system that did not have much diversity, I think this would open up

a new window, a new door to who are our French speakers. We know that the majority of French speakers are located in Africa now, and those numbers are going to be growing even more over the next couple of decades. So I think it also provides students and families for a reason why. Why are we learning French? There are just going to be so many French speakers

surrounding us in the world and many of them in Africa, it gives them a real connection to that why.

Norah Jones (12:22)
you take a look at what it is that students are experiencing, teachers are experiencing specifically with the African French speaking, what do you see coming forth in the ongoing years here in the different societies? We happen to be recording this in the United States, but potentially it can be anywhere in the world that this understanding of

who speakers are, of what language is, how they may be beyond what we expect in our own background or lack of knowledge, if you want to put it that way. What kind of impact do you think what you're doing, what folks are experiencing will have on the global experience of understanding the diversity of this planet?

Katy Wheelock - Vive (13:08)
I just think that...

People want to be seen. People want to be heard above all. And so we are seeing French speakers in Francophone West Africa in this case, if we're talking about Senegal and other neighboring countries. It's an important thing that we have to be talking about today because there's a lot around us that is trying to reject

the other right now. And I think this is happening, like you said, we're recording this in the United States and here in 2025 at the end of the year, people can look and see what's happening here. And the rejection of the other is huge, but this is happening around the world right now in many, many places. So I think that beyond the language, the human connection,

the understanding to not be the other, to know that this person is my friend, this person is my colleague. We have things to learn from each other. We don't go to Senegal to change anything in Senegal or to necessarily teach anything. We're there to share and to exchange with the people that we meet and that we interact with while we're there. Of course, we're there to learn as well.

A lot of learning happens, but I think that's what will make our world a better place by having those connections and as much as possible, we're just one people.

Norah Jones (14:37)
You've seen a transformation in anyone in particular, not to be named, but just a story of watching that.

common humanity dawn on them.

Katy Wheelock - Vive (14:47)
Yeah, I would say I've definitely seen it on probably every trip. On a spectrum, I think some people come with more background information and maybe their experiences in traveling in other locations or who they interact with ⁓ wherever they're from, maybe have prepared them better for the experiences that they're going to have and the relationships that they're going to build in Senegal.

but I would say it's, it's also not just about Senegal on the trips. A lot of it is the learning between, between each other because many French teachers are the only French teacher in their school and they don't have many opportunities to use their French language with other people. So we do our trips as a French immersion trip while we're there. And so we agreed to speak French the whole time and having that opportunity to connect with others like that for, some teachers is really,

really important to our French teacher soul because we're often isolated and just using that with our students. And then I guess even if you have a great colleague that you can share with and that I've been fortunate to have an amazing colleague that I've worked with off and on since 1995. So, you know, that's wonderful opportunity, but we're so overworked in the classroom that

Having this kind of experience outside of the classroom, think, does feed something in our souls that we didn't even know we were looking for. We have, usually every couple of days at least, we meet in a circle and have a conversation. We often call it the Abra Palabra, which is kind of the talking tree. And in Senegal, that would maybe happen underneath a neem tree or a mango tree that provides shade.

If there's a conflict, maybe you go and talk to the village elders and have this conversation. But for us, it's just an opportunity to share and reflect and ask questions because sometimes we've seen things that we just needed some time to process and then we still have these questions. And those were some of the biggest moments of transformation and tears. Sometimes it was tears of...

of just

these deep feelings of connection with each other in the group, but also with the Senegalese we have met and feeling this warm embrace. And then sometimes it was a reflection of how that previous school year had gone and all of the challenges. I've had teachers come on the trip saying, you know, I wasn't even sure if I was going to go back to teaching in the fall. And this trip ignited a spark in me. It fed my soul in a way that

Now I'm really excited about going back to teaching in the fall. So that means a lot to me as somebody who designs the trips very carefully to make sure that we were addressing the needs and interests of our travelers. So yeah, and some of them are very personal, very, very personal transformational experiences.

And some of them I'm just hearing about now a couple years later, people write me a message saying, still think about this trip weekly. I can't really express how much it has changed who I am.

Norah Jones (17:48)
of transformational experiences do they tend to express when they contact you?

Katy Wheelock - Vive (17:53)
A lot of times I think it's just a new opening to the francophone world, that they have like the confidence and feel they have the background knowledge to move forward with the kind of teaching and education that they want to provide for their students. Sometimes on a more personal note, it may be being in a very dysfunctional teaching environment where they're not feeling

embraced and that time in Senegal allowed them to connect again with others in a deeper way and they kind of come back with more of that sense of peace and strength that they maybe were looking for. And then for some, think it's the question and learning more about the role of colonialism

And who our ancestors are, what part in that did they have? Whether your ancestors were enslaved people, whether your ancestors were involved in the slave trade, that's something that we also address while we're on the trip. And of course, that's very personal.

and we come at it from different places and how we internalize that, how we digest that on the trip. And I'm sure that is something that is a continual process when we return.

Norah Jones (19:14)
You say that you plan, as we can imagine, these journeys very carefully. You have a program that's designed to help them to experience, in this case, say, Senegal, and also each other. And here you've brought up this very important discussions of the histories of peoples and the interactions. What ways, Katie, do you arrange

how you approach that and what have you seen works so that there is an understanding of colonial history, of human history and the impact and bring that openness to the experience so that people feel free to begin to address all of that.

Katy Wheelock - Vive (19:57)
That's a good question. I personally think that I do a decent job with that, but I'm always looking to find ways to improve on that because it is such a big, important, weighty experience. First of all, as a middle-aged white woman, I do not feel, even though I have decades of experience in Senegal, I do not feel that I am...

I'm the person who should be sharing that story. So we often, well, always, we always have a Senegalese guide with us. He's with us 24 seven. And his specialty is Gore Island, which is the location of the slave house in ⁓ right off the coast of Dakar. And that's his specialty area. And he was a history major for his undergrad. And so he's like our little professor, our tall Senegalese professor.

his depth of knowledge and ability to tell us the facts, but also tell us about some of the conflicts associated with some of the facts, seeing it from maybe more of a French point of view and a Senegalese point of view, and then kind of what the history books are telling us. I think he does a fabulous job sharing that. And then a lot of things, like we know as teachers, they need repetition.

You need to hear things multiple times for it to really sink in. I think we're just bombarded on the trip with so much new input everywhere you turn that there are things that he has to talk about over and over again, not in a didactic way, but to just make sure that we're all kind of getting it. So those conversations come up on the bus as we're driving past certain places or

if we see a statue on the side of the road and we pause and discuss that. So that opens the door for a lot of knowledge. And as teachers, we're soaking it in, we might have our notebooks out, we're taking our notes. Some groups are much more like academic about that. And then the conversations, lots of questions. And yet, I think

You I've been looking back on the first several years of trips now that I've done. And I really believe that I probably need to even go deeper and offer more facilitation of conversations, whether that's over a meal, over the Senegalese tea, tie-out where you have that opportunity for pausing and conversation, or if it's at the end of the day. But I want to...

do that with care and respect because I think for some people it's gonna take a while for them to reflect on everything and come to a place where they'd even be ready or willing to share with a group of people that they've just met. So I think there is definitely a balance but it's an intense time together and some groups...

We maintain a WhatsApp group afterwards and some groups are more active than others. Some are sharing, you know, family photos of, you know, marriages and births in the family. And so there's like that connection, but then some people are sharing lessons that they've done or looking for resource or they're getting ready to present at a conference and want somebody to look over their materials. that connection, I could almost see like an alumni meeting at some point.

where we have a chance to talk about some of these experiences after the fact.

Norah Jones (23:24)
It would be wonderful to share and it would be interesting to know too, and perhaps you can share a little bit now, as you may have heard, about how this transforms what happens not only in the individual classroom, but also in that school or that school community. What kind of impact do these experiences have on how the community and the school as a whole thinks about cultures around the world?

history.

Katy Wheelock - Vive (23:53)
big picture. I'm not sure that I have like specific anecdotes about that, but I can only imagine that when the French teacher has taken her summer vacation and she has or he has has chosen to go to Senegal for professional development and personal enrichment on a trip like this, it's got to be eye opening for a lot of administrators because it's not what they're expecting. know, family vacation in Paris maybe or

know, trip to Louisiana, but it's not a lot of people that are, you know, headed off to Senegal in the summertime. So that has got to start to plant seeds with administrators who are outside of you know, Le Monde Francophone and the French speaking world who are thinking, ⁓ Senegal, like maybe for them too, it's the first time they really thought about French being spoken in Africa. So I think.

Those kinds of conversations are super important because we know that our assistant principals, our principals, supervisors of world language programs, they're serving maybe eight different languages in the school like where I teach. We have eight different languages taught and they're not really in the weeds necessarily and those kinds of things that the teachers are doing. So when they hear about that, I think that's got to have a big or maybe a small impact that will become bigger over time.

But also, I do have a specific anecdote of the last name D-I-A-L-L-O. And so one of the teachers on our trips had a student in her homeroom the following fall, and that was his last name. And in Senegal, and in many places, that's pronounced Jalo. But a lot of people see the D-I, and they think it would be Diallo.

And when she met him, she pronounced his name correctly the first time. And he looked up in shock. Like, how did you know that? Nobody ever says it right. And he wasn't from Senegal. I think he was from Guinea-Conakry. But she said, well, I was in Senegal this summer. somebody that we were spending a lot of time with, that was his last name. he was seen, right? That meant a lot to him.

And of course, that allow that teacher to make a great connection right away. Family names are so important in Senegal. Once you know somebody's last name, you can often know what part of the country they're from, what their ethnic group is, and then their jokes. In Senegal, they have a thing that they call, they cousin a taqine. So they're like teasing cousins. And if my last name is Jouf,

and your name is Jalo, we have built in societal things that we can say to each other right after meeting each other. And I can start teasing you about how much you love to eat fish and rice. And you might say, you know, you're lazy. I work harder than you do. And it's at the very beginning of the conversation goes back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And people are laughing. And it's one of the big ways that the Senegalese have said that they have maintained a lot of

peace in their society and peaceful transitions with the government because immediately we're going to be friends. And so that's one thing that I love about Senegal too. And I think the names are so important. So I'm just really glad that that teacher was able to go back and that was great for her and for her relationship with that student on the first day of school that fall.

Norah Jones (27:09)
Isn't it fascinating that is such a, one would think that is potentially has not been in a classroom, that that would be very small, but that's huge what just happened. That delight and that connection, that's great, Katie.

Katy Wheelock - Vive (27:24)
Yeah.

Norah Jones (28:01)
You know, one of the things that we have been, appropriately so, we've been talking about recipients of this trip. are...

coming back with a better understanding with a clarity of where French is spoken, the kinds of things that are benefiting those teachers that have gone and their students. What are some of the things that you've experienced about how the Senegalese have a positive experience with these visitors from the United States? What they've been able to share?

what they've been able to express, what it means to them to do so, what impact they hope that their lives have. A little bit more from how you interpret or how you have heard their experience.

Katy Wheelock - Vive (28:48)
Hmm. I think, I think right off the bat, the Senegalese are happy to welcome us. So our groups have largely been from the United States and Canada, and we've had some people travel on French passports as well. So mostly we're all living in North America when we go over. And so I think when we start speaking French, the first assumption is that we're from France.

And then when we explain, we're teachers of the French language and we're here to learn about Senegal because we want to take this back to our classes and we want to teach our students more about your country and your lives. They are so honored. They are so honored. So that's probably number one. We also make it a priority even though we're all speakers of French, we do

⁓ teach everybody a little bit of Wolof before we go. Wolof is the main national language in Senegal, and even if it's not your ethnic group, you're very likely to know Wolof. If you ever meet Senegalese in New York City or in Rome or in Barcelona, your Wolof will take you really far with them if you ever want to give it a try. So we also do a little Wolof practice when we first get there. And so we often start our greetings in Wolof and then switch over to French.

And that is hugely appreciated as well. Again, we're seeing them in their language. We tell them we're sorry. We don't know more. We're French teachers. Many of us speak English as our first language. So there's that. And then we take times to visit various schools. So we usually try to visit private and public schools. And in the past, we visited elementary schools, high schools, and universities.

And at the university level, we often meet with students who are in a Masters of Tourism program. And so again, they are kind of confused. Like you guys are here on a trip, but like you're not just hanging out at the beach, you know, like you're not just at the pool, you're not just, you know, kind of doing the tourist thing. And we go there and they give us a tour of their residence halls.

We get to go into their classrooms and their professors invite us to talk with them. Oftentimes that turns into a song or a rap while we're there. I mean, there's all kinds of things that are happening. I guess the Senegalese are, they're learning about us too. They're learning about how we teach a language. And I think it is different than, you

how other countries often do it. A lot of it is memorizations, a lot of writing, a lot of reading, that kind of stuff. And when we say like, we're here to learn and bring that back, they're like, we'll bring what back? We're like, everything, everything we can. Your habits, your language, your way of eating, which is we want our students to know about your country. And so...

Norah Jones (31:29)
Thanks.

Katy Wheelock - Vive (31:40)
That has been really good. And then I'd say the administrators at the schools are often looking for potential partnerships, whether that might be pen pal exchanges, virtual exchanges, or pairing up schools. We've been really lucky. Viv'lex Perrions has been able to work with the Ministry of Education. And so we have a letter from the minister

to kind of give us access to go into different schools. And so that's a really important part of what we do as well. So I don't know if I addressed it enough, but I hope I sort of got there.

Norah Jones (32:14)
⁓ absolutely. Sure. You

sure did. Talk more about Viv'l'Experience and what it is that you have dreamed into being and why.

Katy Wheelock - Vive (32:25)
Well, like I mentioned before, I've presented at conferences, people afterwards have followed up with me looking for more resources on Senegal or asking me questions. And I've always worked on trying to maintain those connections. And then when people were saying, like, let's go to Senegal, it was just a chance training at the Embassy of France. They were doing a training on

how to teach the French speaking world in your classes. And I'm just four miles away from the embassy here in Arlington. And I was on the National Board for the American Association of Teachers of French. So I often was collaborating with the Education Attaché there. And in this case, I was helping to promote this workshop that they were getting ready to do for French teachers in the Washington, Maryland, Virginia area. And at this training, a couple of seats away,

was somebody that I knew for sure was Senegalese, and we started chatting. And we said, why don't we do this together? And so that was in the springtime of 2022. And by the fall, we had kind of launched a survey, had 100 people, French teachers tell us quickly that they wanted to go. And we thought, really, 100 people, are they really going to go? so Matu and I, we didn't know each other before then, but we were

Norah Jones (33:33)
Wow.

Katy Wheelock - Vive (33:42)
completely in sync with the kind of trip we wanted to offer, where we wanted to go, what kinds of activities we wanted to do. And so we planned the itinerary together. And when we launched the the dates and the price and sending a deposit within like two weeks, we had 18 people signed up. And so that was when it was right, I think, around Thanksgiving time in twenty twenty two.

I was sitting down at my computer Googling, how do you start a company? Because it wasn't a plan. I just wanted to take teachers to Senegal. But then I realized like, I have to do this properly. I have to get a business bank account. I have to figure out what kind of business structure I have. I need professional insurance. You know, how do I do this correctly?

And I figured it all out and our first trip happened and it was great. And then the following year we offered two trips and we've recently just added Tunisia because we had a group that was so enthusiastic. said, when, where are we going next? And so Tunisia had always been on my bucket list and, and the planner and me already had an itinerary ready for Tunisia that I wanted to do someday. And I said, okay, well let's do that. So we have 20 teachers that will go to Tunisia next summer as well. And then.

teachers of course want to take their students. So a teacher who traveled with me in 2024 took her students, her high school students in the spring of 2025. And right now I'm working with close to 20 universities who want to prepare study abroad programs and high schools for similar types of trips. So it's become, it's always been a passion. Now it's maybe an obsession that I just want to see.

where this can go and how we can fulfill this dream for people who want to have this kind of experience. I would hope that five to eight years from now, there will be other countries and other locations that will try to nurture those same kinds of relationships in those places and have a similar type of.

immersive experience for French language teachers and educators. I wanted to dive into the Spanish speaking world as well. I have some very close connections in Catalonia and Spain, and I thought it would be really interesting to have Spanish teachers seeing a different side of Spain. Maybe they've been to Barcelona, but maybe they haven't gone that deep in terms of what's happening in Catalonia and local artisans and things like that that I have connections with.

And similarly in Columbia, I was working with some people in the coffee triangle to potentially open up trips there. And one of my mentors said, Katie, your company is called Vive l'Experience. Maybe you should stick with the French teachers for now. Let your company grow a little older before you start branching out. And that was definitely wise advice because my Spanish is okay, but you know, French is, that's been my background for

Norah Jones (36:22)
Thanks.

Katy Wheelock - Vive (36:36)
a very long time. So I think it's, was good advice, but my heart is interested in that. But I think growing in the French speaking world is probably more likely.

Norah Jones (36:46)
Well, you're showing a model, your company is showing a model for how it's done and you know that there's interest in these others. So it will be fascinating to watch how the model might be replicated and what the direction is, how it comes about. TBD, but good job. Now, how did Katie get into this? What were you as a young, a very young person? Okay, why all this interest and

Katy Wheelock - Vive (37:01)
huh. That's right.

Norah Jones (37:13)
What was the spark for Katie?

Katy Wheelock - Vive (37:15)
that is an unexpected question. Okay, so I grew up in South Central Pennsylvania near Harrisburg and not far from Pennsylvania, Dutch country, very homogenous area where I grew up in eighth grade.

I, our school had a program where we would have a introductory course, a third of the year in German, a third in Spanish, and a third in French. And I really liked my French teacher. She was great. She was enthusiastic. She definitely lit a spark. And I chose to study French. So that's kind of where it started. So she was my teacher.

in eighth grade and then she was also my teacher in 12th grade. And she was tough, she was demanding, she was creative. I think she was a great role model as a teacher. And so her high expectations sent me off to college where I thought I would be doing international relations, maybe I'd become a diplomat. I don't know where these ideas came from really. But

I didn't like economics too much in college. It wasn't my favorite class. And near the end of my first semester, my French professor said to me, we'd like to recommend you for our peer tutoring program. You'll earn money tutoring your peers, but they won't have to pay. And we think you have the skill set to do this. And I thought.

Okay, that would be nice, but it was a little intimidating because I was a freshman and I was mostly tutoring juniors and seniors who had to fulfill their language requirement before graduation and were really struggling to pass. So I was working with students who were not always the best friends students. One of them became one of my best friends. But that's kind of where it all started that I realized I liked teaching and had this interest.

And then my French teacher from high school who's now retired, she just traveled with me to Senegal on our trip this past summer. And we were able to share that experience together. So that was kind of a full circle, amazing experience that we had because we target current French language teachers, but we kind of feel like they're people who maybe step out of the career for a while as...

Norah Jones (39:13)
Wow.

Katy Wheelock - Vive (39:29)
They do consulting or maybe they're at home for a while or they go part-time or in this case, a new retiree who still has that interest and curiosity and wants to keep up their French. So kind of once a French teacher, always a French teacher, I guess. So there was all of that, but where the interest in Africa came from, I'm not sure, but it always felt like something that I needed to do. I was very interested and

and just making that happen. So thank goodness I did.

Norah Jones (39:57)
No kidding, that really opened so many doors. So when you look out at this audience that's listening to you right now, and you're like, you know, I really want to tell you something important, and I hope you all are listening, because this can be life-changing, important, and here's what I want you to hear. What would you say to them?

Katy Wheelock - Vive (40:20)
Wow, ⁓

I want to say two things. Maybe one is expect the unexpected or maybe not quite that. Maybe be willing to accept the unexpected because like I was just saying, there's really no reason why

I ended up with this passion and love for Senegal. Like that was not something that was, you know, a seed planted early that just bloomed and sprouted. was just something unexpected that came my way. And I just decided to embrace that and give it a try. I didn't really know what I was getting into when my husband and I moved to Senegal as newlyweds with our two suitcases each wondering what we were doing. We didn't know.

Um, and, and other things along the way, um, have, have come just by being open to conversations. Um, and I want to say like, that's, that's the listening, but I think it's just being willing to hear sometimes what the other person might be saying or might be offering you no matter how crazy it might sound. Um,

Sometimes we have to be ready for those unexpected chance meetings, chance opportunities, and embrace it.

Norah Jones (41:48)
You're a person of language and culture. What kind of vision do you have for the future of our various societies?

Where is the world, where should the world be going, Katie?

Katy Wheelock - Vive (42:02)
Well, I think it's an important question to be asking right now with artificial intelligence being such an omnipresent part of our lives. And yet I think we've barely scratched the surface of what that will look like five or 10 years from now. I think we need to ask ourselves that question now. The language capabilities of AI are impressive and

We may use them for proofreading. We might use them for translating. We might use them for crafting documents. But I'm going to always say that it's the personal connection that you make with somebody in whatever language that is going to be one of the most important things you can do in life. And even though I look forward to the day where maybe I get to travel to a place where I have

little way of communicating except through a device. If I can, I always want to take the approach that even a few words, even a few expressions will help me make that connection. And if I can master a language to a level where I can communicate even better, that is where the magic happens. That's where the connections happen. That's where our humanity

is most true, I think.

Norah Jones (43:20)
When you give your workshops, what are you especially happy to bring to people? What outcome are you looking for that you put in a proposal and that you provide a workshop?

Katy Wheelock - Vive (43:31)
think sometimes I'm just happy that I can share a lot of information about Senegal in different areas so that I know that I'm touching on some area that somebody has a passion about. So oftentimes my presentations on Senegal might cover four or five different topics, and that might be environment, it might be the arts focusing on hip hop and graffiti.

could be just the language, local cultures, the eating styles, the food. I want people to be able to envision what the thing is that I'm talking about and really hold on to that, but also in a way that they feel they could also share that information with their students because, you know,

I can present to 30 or 50 people, but if they can then share it with another 150 times the next five years, like that's just an exponential increase of knowledge shared. So I guess that's a big part of it. But then also I think empowering people to feel like they can do this, right? They can teach in this way, they can share this information. don't have to go to Senegal to be able to teach about Senegal.

I mean, sure, that would be great if we all could travel all the places we want to talk about, but the world is big and resources can be limited. So it's not necessarily the case for everybody, but if I can give people a couple of nuggets, like the pronunciation of Jalo, those kinds of things can go a long way. so I guess that's a big part of what I want to be doing when I'm sharing this with other people.

Norah Jones (45:12)
That's really great. Thanks, Katie, for that. Just a question popped into my mind. have to ask it, OK? Which is, when you got to Senegal, either during these trips or when you first got there, what was the one biggest surprise that you're like, ⁓ I had no idea. This is wild or amazing or however you would like to interpret that question. You were just totally surprised by

Katy Wheelock - Vive (45:19)
Okay.

Norah Jones (45:37)
Probably, I mean, in a good way here, I think, you a happy way.

Katy Wheelock - Vive (45:40)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

The level of openness and extroverts in the country is, I mean, it can be overwhelming for some people and maybe not, it's not a positive thing for everybody, but I was just surprised how many people wanted to talk to me. And I thought it was maybe because I was a novelty. We were the only,

people from the United States or Europe living in our neighborhood. And so I thought, you know, maybe, maybe everybody just wants to know us because we're the newcomers. But I think that that's just kind of the Senegalese. are, they're an extroverted society in general, very focused on the group. They want you to be included. And so when our neighbor down below, she worked at the shawarma restaurant below where we lived and

⁓ she was a little younger than us and now she's one of my lifelong friends. We've been friends now for 30 years. she invited us to her village for Eid and we didn't even know her that well. We're like, well, how far away is it? How do we get there? Like, let's go. And we, you know, jump on the bus and, and went to her village for the weekend for, to celebrate Eid with her family. Those kinds of things just happen all the time in Senegal. And,

If you're a person that needs some quiet time or downtime or alone time, like as a culture, that's not expected in general. So that was a surprise. And I guess as we were discovering the country and learning more just about everything, it was nice that people were reaching out to us on a regular basis to help us through that. that was definitely a positive, but unexpected.

Norah Jones (47:18)
⁓ that's a delightful story. Thank you for telling that. That's great. Katie, you've shared so many things, but I do have one last question. And that is, is there anything that I have failed to ask about? Is there anything that you feel that you need to add or to emphasize again before we end our conversation today?

Katy Wheelock - Vive (47:38)
⁓

I I think I've shared a lot about Senegal. So I guess my closing comment or observations would be just a broader, how important it is for us largely about, you know, as language educators, but anybody that's involved in the language education field to make sure that we are raising up the voices of people who are not always heard and ⁓

You know, in my case, maybe that's introducing the Senegalese into my French curriculum. But I think for all language teachers, all people involved with promoting, advocating for world languages, that we need these kinds of opportunities to showcase, but also to integrate it in a way where it's not showcase, that it's just...

a regular part of our curriculum, of our lessons, of our education, how we do things. so that's one big thing that I think is really important and part of why I do what I do.

Norah Jones (48:39)
diversity of humanity should be integrated into everything that we work with. It should not be too much of a surprise, and how we make that happen. That's beautifully said. Katie, thank you so much for what you have provided for me and for all of my listeners here today. You've shared so much. Thank you.

Katy Wheelock - Vive (48:48)
I'm

And thank you for having me, Nora. I'm really so happy to be here talking with you and sharing with your audience.

Norah Jones (49:08)
Thank you for joining me for this conversation with Katie Wheelock. To learn more about Katie and Vive l'Experience, go to my website fluency.consulting. There you can learn all about her. You can download the transcript. You can download the podcast. Please remember to subscribe so that you can listen to more of my wonderful guests. And I look forward to connecting with you next time.