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The Bible is the most important book in the world.
It not only takes us through the whole history of the universe from beginning to end, but it can also speak clearly to us about daily life:
Why are we here?
Is there really a God who has shown up in human history?
How should we live?
Book by Book explores the Bible's answers to the deepest questions.
Book by Book
Romans episode 9 - The Upside-Down Kingdom: Getting Lower to Lift Others Higher
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How can Christians with different convictions live together in genuine unity? Romans 14-15 provides profound guidance for navigating disagreements while maintaining fellowship in Christ.
Our panel explores how Paul flips conventional wisdom upside down when handling disputes in the early church. Rather than the "strong" Christians (those with greater freedom) insisting on their way, Paul calls them to voluntarily limit themselves out of love for others. This counterintuitive approach mirrors Christ's own example—the strongest personality in history chose to get lower than anyone else to lift humanity up.
We discover that judgment becomes toxic when it removes hope and places ourselves on a throne of superiority. True strength is demonstrated not by winning arguments but by serving those we disagree with. As Dwayne Morgan powerfully asks: "How low will I go to win a brother or sister?"
The discussion reveals how Scripture trains us to read the entire Bible—even the Old Testament—as immediately relevant to our lives as believers. Each biblical story becomes our story, with Christ at the center speaking directly to our circumstances today.
The panel unpacks Paul's priestly language and evangelistic passion as he describes his travel plans and the collection for Jerusalem believers. This profound act of generosity wasn't merely financial aid but a powerful symbol of reconciliation between Jewish and Gentile Christians—demonstrating how the gospel creates one global family from diverse backgrounds.
Join us as we explore how Christian unity becomes a showcase of God's glory in a divided world, offering hope that transcends our differences and points to the eternal future we share in Christ.
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Welcome to Book by Book Romans
Speaker 1Hello and welcome back to Book by Book , the joy of meeting Jesus in all the scriptures . My name is Steve Nicholls and it's great to have you with us for our ninth study in Romans . Well , here to help us today are Tobias Brown , originally from Chicago but now senior pastor of Grace Church , brockley , here in London , where we're filming . Dr Paul Blackham , theologian church planter , church minister , and Duane Morgan , worship pastor and old friend of Book by Book . It's great to be together again for our next study . Thank you ,
Handling Differences Among Christians
Speaker 1our next study , thank you .
Speaker 1Unity among Christians must be the hardest thing in the world . The fact that there are 33,000 Christian denominations seems to suggest so , but we've seen in Romans that actually there's only one church and Jesus died to create it . But how do we get along when we're all so different ? How should we handle disagreement ? Many Christians find it easier to join another church than work at the relationships in their present one , and some Christians even stop going to church altogether . So why is it vital for us all to be part of a local church family , and how should that work ? We're going to let Romans 14 and 15 answer those questions today . So if you have a Bible , please do pick it up .
Speaker 1Turn to Romans , chapter 14 , and let's begin by reading a few verses together . Romans , chapter 14 , let's read from verse 1 . Paul writes read from verse 1 . Paul writes Accept him whose faith is weak , without passing judgment on disputable matters . One man's faith allows him to eat everything , but another man , whose faith is weak , eats only vegetables . The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not , and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does , for God has accepted him . Who are you to judge someone else's servant To his own master ? He stands or falls , and he will stand , for the Lord is able to make him stand . Tobias , if I can begin with you the opening bit of Romans 14 here stop passing judgment on one another . There's lots of issues that Christians might disagree with each other on . Is it possible for a church family to have lots of different opinions about everything ? Are there limits to this ?
Speaker 2yeah , I mean , having having been in the church pretty much all my life , I mean I know this to be a fact we all come to the table with different opinions . I mean we all have different experiences , different ecclesiological and even theological backgrounds . So within the church family , you are going to get this diversity of opinions . An example of this is
Strong and Weak: Responsibilities in Unity
Speaker 2I remember talking with a brother here a few years ago and he was just saying how , you know , drinking wine and beer is something that you know his church is perfectly fine with and he feels like it's within their Christian liberty to do such things . And I was like , yeah , I agree with you . I was like , back in New York , you know a group of pastors and I , we would go out and we would smoke cigars . And he was like , whoa , like that's crossing the line , you know . But I'm like you know , it's the same idea , it's within our freedoms to be able to do .
Speaker 2Now , some people may not want to drink wine , just like some people may not want to get together with a group of Christians and smoke cigars , just like some people may feel okay with eating meat and some Christians may feel like it's not okay to eat meat . But I would say that the limits for this would be determining if a person's conviction or doctrine goes beyond what Scripture says . That's what I would say . The limit is so there's room for non-essential matters , or what we would call like secondary issues A lot of these issues that we're talking about today . They shouldn't split churches Whether or not Christians drink wine , whether or not Christians should be vegan but those secondary issues , they do have the tendency or the potential to split churches , but it shouldn't , and I think what should really unite us is the gospel . That is what should bring us together . But if we're going against doctrine or if we're doing things that make our brother or sister stumble , then I feel like those are limits .
Speaker 1That's helpful , Paul . In these verses , the Apostle Paul talks about the strong and the weak . What's the difference between the strong and the weak , and what's the responsibility of the strong in these situations ?
Speaker 3Yeah , it's one of these that it's worried . Everything flips the other way up than people think , because people would tend to go oh well , you know the weak . Because he's like saying okay , so a person you might think that's a weak person because they don't understand doctrine the way I do , like I understand how the real issues and this , that and the other . And let's imagine then that it's like okay , because let's take eating , like diet things . And then there might be a person you say , well , they're weak because they're very strict and they won't eat this and they won't eat that and they don't want to drink that and they don't want to smoke that cigar or whatever . But I understand things better , I'm the strong person . I know it's fine to eat anything and whatever . So then they're like so I , my view must prevail . So I , I , I understand things better , so I get my way . And that's the you'd think , that's the . That's the way the world would think of things .
Speaker 3The person who's got the better view and understands things in the bigger context , they should be the one who determines the way it's going to go . But he flips it around and he's like well , if you , if you are the strong person and you understand these things and understand , oh well , it doesn't actually matter what you eat . And he's like well , if that's true , if you really understand that you shouldn't care , then so how about if it really doesn't matter ? How about restricting what you eat to coincide with the weak person weak in inverted commas , because they're not really weak or strong because it's like , as he's going to explain , there's , like you know , deep devotion often behind the limits people put on themselves and there's reasons why they do that . But it's funny because quite often I've had conversations with people who are saying , oh , you see , I realize I can eat anything . And I look at them I think , yeah , I can see that , I can see that .
Speaker 3But it's like , no , but the secular world would take that view oh , we can eat anything , we can do anything , there's no limits at all . But actually the sign of the really strong person is the person that goes well , I understand what's really going on with that and everything belongs to jesus and everything . But the best thing , if it really doesn't matter right , is to use that freedom I've got to serve the others so that they're built up and they don't feel compromised and their , their devotion to christ can grow and that they're able to be . They're able to be strong .
Speaker 1yeah , yeah , so we've got a responsibility for each other , that's what we're saying . Dwayne , can I turn to you and taking this on a bit . What's the great danger of judging other people in the church family ? Where does that take us , I think ?
Speaker 4we need to define judging , because I think there's two sides to this coin .
Reading Scripture With Hope
Speaker 4Judging because I think there's two sides to this coin . I think that the there is the disagreeing on things that we it's not really a major thing , but then there is also there is the , the terminology where people use don't judge me in order to carry on in levels of sin , and I think , um , for me the judgment is is finding fault without hope . It's when we remove hope that there's nothing to go from here . So , for example , like we could talk about smoking cigars if me and you are not in disagreement , the scripture gives a reason , says look , if , if , if . If he thinks it's sin , don't do it , because it's going to cause him to stumble , and so that matter is kind of dealt with it . But then we have the other situation here where we have , I feel like in today's culture , what we've done is almost minimized sin and said , okay , we're not going to call it sin anymore , we're going to call it a struggle , because if you struggled and you won't fall into condemnation , the problem is we also , we don't acknowledge the , the power of of sin , and and why I'm saying that is that helps us not to fall into judgment because it moves us away from , for example , correcting someone , because the bible says this and we need to make sure that everybody's acting right and there's a deep love that begins to to come and we no longer do things from the place of I need to be right , we do things from the place of I have a genuine concern for my brother , I have a genuine concern for this individual . I have a genuine concern , whether it be sin or whether it be one of these things that we're talking about here . There doesn't need to be a church split , because actually I'm not coming to you because I need to be right . I'm coming to you because there's a concern that this may cause something that is going to affect our relationship with Christ in the long run . And so then it becomes different .
Speaker 4I think I was sharing earlier that I had this almost revelation about the upside down kingdom , and Paul kind of briefly touched it . When we are the stronger person , as it says in the scripture , what actually means is we actually have more ability or stronger ability to get low , and so we find the strongest personality in the whole Bible , in the whole world , is Jesus Christ , the one that experienced everything we experienced but never sinned . And what did he do ? He got lower than any other person . He got as low as he could possibly get in order to put his hands up and push us up and to push us . It almost like to push us into salvation .
Speaker 4I feel like we are being asked the question how low will I get to win a brother ? How low will I go to win a brother ? How low will I go to win a sister ? How low will I go to see that person who I think is weaker than I ? Don't pull them up , you get underneath them and you push them higher . You lift them up from below and that's us getting lower . And that helps us again , not to judge , because when we judge , what we're actually doing is putting ourselves in the high seat . We're in this position of power , we lose our humility and what happens ? God resists the proud and we find ourselves battling against god rather than battling with him .
Speaker 1And yeah , it can get very messy when we judge yeah , it's not winning the argument and winning people over to our position , but but ? But winning our brother and sister , isn't it ? Yeah , not insisting that they're going against their consciousness , because , as the chapter ends , anything that is not done from faith is sin . We don't want to be causing our brothers and sisters to stumble in that way . Let's look on to chapter 15 , sort of serving one another , I suppose for the sake of the global gospel that we've been thinking about in our last studies . Paul the apostle says in verse 4 , chapter 15 , verse 4 , everything that was written in the past was written to teach us so that , through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures , we might have hope . How does this verse verse 4 , teach us to read the Bible , especially the Old Testament ?
Speaker 3Yeah , I love this because quite often , particularly in the modern time , people go oh , the Old Testament , you know , I can't read that and it's not for me anyway . Or if they do read it , they spend so much time saying , well , let's put it in its original context , and they're kind of pushing it away . So it's , oh , this was about ancient people long ago and they thought very differently . And they maybe think even God dealt differently back then . God was kind of different back then . And they're constantly pushing it away , pushing it away , and then they'll go . So I don't think it's really relevant to me . I don't see how it applies . Well , no , of course not because of the way you've just read it . You've just read it and you said from the out you know , he's saying Paul's just saying , hey , he's just given us an Old Testament quotation , and then he's like that Even Christ didn't please himself , but as it's written . And then he does this quotation from Psalm 69 . And he's like see , that was about Christ . And then that's telling you about you . And then he just throws in , he goes I hope you're reading the whole Bible that way .
Speaker 3Like with everything in the Bible , it's you , it's not something far away for ancient people and it wasn't as if God did things differently back then . It's Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever as in Hebrews . It's like when you're reading it . That's the same like when you're reading it . That's the same like when he writes in 1 Corinthians 10 and he's like ah , people in the Exodus and they were baptized into Moses and they drank the same spiritual drink that we drink and the same spiritual food they were eating as we , because that was Christ with them then . And he's like wow , so I'm supposed to read that like that ancient church .
Speaker 3And then he says now , so I'm supposed to read that like that ancient church . And then he says now , look , they fell into immorality . God judged them , people died . And then he's like same thing's happening now . The same Lord Jesus can judge his church . Now , when you're reading it , it should be so immediate to you that you're like , oh man , why am I grumbling ? You should read the scriptures like you're part of every story and Christ is speaking to you and challenging you . So I love the fact Paul puts that in there . They were all written for you to read and be impacted by , and if you do that , you'll have encouragement and you'll have hope , because you'll find out how to address sin , how to get through life .
The Gospel's Global Mission
Speaker 1Tobias , verse 7 of chapter 15 . Is church unity necessary for genuine praise and worship ? I suppose looking down a few verses 9 and 12 , 9 to 12 .
Speaker 2Yeah , when you read these verses it kind of sounds like that's what Paul is saying . Again , it's talking about the sort of inclusive nature of God's plan in verses 9 to 12 , where all nations and all peoples , jews and Gentiles , are invited into the praises of God , into the praises of the Lord . And he's quoting from a number of different passages , right Verse nine . He's quoting from Deuteronomy , chapter 32 , verse 11 , he's quoting from Psalm 117 . What Paul is trying to communicate is that his always been God's plan to bring Jews and Gentiles together under the gospel . That's always been his plan because it's something about their unity and unity within the church in general . That exemplifies or that it showcases , it puts on display the manifold wisdom of God , the glory of God and the beauty of the gospel . And so when people see that , what Paul is saying is that it should lead to praise . People should be able to see that unity and praise God for his plan in bringing these diverse groups of people together under the gospel .
Speaker 1Yeah , wonderful , it leads to praise , yeah absolutely Absolutely . I love the prayer Duane in verse 13 . May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him , so that you may have a flow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit . Why is hope so vital in our church life today ?
Speaker 4I would say that we , as believers , should have what I would call an eternal mindset . Jesus in the scripture says store up your treasures in heaven . Paul says that he runs the race . He also says that it is better for him , it would be better for him , to go now and be with the Lord Jesus . And he says to live is Christ and to die is gain . What do you mean ? To die is gain . Well , without the hope of an eternal future with our Lord , we actually have nothing to live for . You know , you do not have the strength to persevere , you do not have the strength to be able to follow this book without the hope that one day we are going to be with Jesus , we're going to stand before him and then we're going to be in an eternal relationship , in the full , manifest presence of God , with God for eternity . And see , when we think about an eternal mindset , this life that we have becomes very small . You have a small 80 years , 90 years , some of us 100 years , where we get to live , to be honest , with you , in the closest thing we'll ever experience to hell . And then there's just him . You know , and we think about revelations .
Speaker 4It talks about , you know , the four living creatures . They see him . The only response holy , holy , holy . You know the 24 elders , the singing glory , be to the lamb . You know . You see the angels all around . They turn to each other holy , holy , he's holy . So they look at him and their only response is holy .
Speaker 4And we're like what is it about this , jesus , that all they can do is respond in a way which is , like you said , praise . Their only response is praise . And we've got that to come .
Speaker 4But for now , we have work to do and we have imperfect people from different backgrounds and different cultures , and without the hope of what is to come , I can't fully assure myself or fully love Tobias without recognizing that part of me loving him well is storing my treasures up in heaven , because Jesus says to look at the things above , not at the things below , and so actually , our currency is the hope , which is the promises that he's given to us . Because now , because of the hope and the promises , everything that I do which loves Tobias and loves you is a currency for what's to come . And it says that Jesus says I've gone to prepare a place for you , like okay , but every time I think about it and I'll leave it with this . One is a friend of mine . When I first got saved they said Dwayne , every single time you forgive , every single time you bless and not curse , every single time you do , you follow one of those kingdom principles . It's an extra gold coin in heaven .
Speaker 4And I've held on to that ever since to that everything .
Speaker 1So it's really important hope , because we have to look to what's to come . We need church , don't we ? Just to kind of get back to reality , yeah , before we go out into a crazy messed up world again where we're hearing all these things yeah uh , let's .
Speaker 1Let's move on , paul , if we may . To well , verses 14 to the end of the chapter um . We're thinking about serving the nations here . In verse 16 , paul talks about being a minister to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God , so the Gentiles might become an offering . What's all this talk about priests and offerings ? What's that all about ?
Speaker 3Well , we've seen how often he's been telling us like , oh , that Old Testament law , you know , that's all about the gospel , all about Jesus . And it's kind of drawing from that to say , well , his passion is that we understand our identity as church , that we're going out and we can go take this gospel to anybody anywhere . And it works . You don't have to come up with another message , say , oh , I'm going to these people so I'll have to like , come up with another message for them . No , he's like no , this . I have crazy confidence in this gospel of jesus because it's god's power , god's right and his wrath being revealed and the when . All of this . It works anywhere and everywhere . So he wants you to go with that confidence . And he's got this priestly image . And Peter does it as well , because when the ancient church got to Sinai , the first thing the Lord said to them is you're priestly people . I've brought you here for a reason which is like in those quotations he's saying my goal is always to reach the entire world . So I've rescued you out of Egypt because I want you now to be evangelists to the whole world . Now he's got a bit of work to do with them . That first generation I'll grant .
Speaker 3But Peter picks that up and just goes . He writes to and it's a general epistle , just to Christians basically everywhere , and he says you're chosen people . It's 1 Peter 2.9 . You are a royal priesthood , holy nation . And he picks up on that special that you may declare the praises of him , who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light . So he's like now you've been redeemed , you've come out of darkness . And he's like you can't just sit there going , oh , this is just wonderful , yeah , I'm having a lovely time . And he's like no , no , no . Like now that you've experienced this part of what I saved you for is so that you can go like back into the darkness , kind of almost as shining lights , and say to people you know , there's a way out of this , you've got to come .
Speaker 3And that priest , then a priest is someone who represents God to people , and so that's what our job is representing properly . But also and this is the key bit here he's like he
The Church as Gospel Showcase
Speaker 3also takes the people and presents them to God , the priest . And it's as if he's saying what job ? We sort of go , let's take the , take people and go here , god , here's somebody , you , you have them . And he's like oh , but how are they acceptable ? And he says ah , they're acceptable by the holy spirit , I'm going to jump in .
Speaker 1Do you know ? Our time is almost gone . I wonder if , um paul , if I can stay with you . Why does Paul share his travel plans at this point in the letter ? What's the geography all about ?
Speaker 3Yeah , because in verse 19 , he's just said look , I've been going from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum , I've been proclaiming the gospel , but he feels like I've not gone far enough . The gospel's got to go out further than this . And then verse 23 , there's no more place for me to work in these regions . You're like well , probably is paul , probably not absolutely everybody , but it's this view he's got . I just the gospel has got to be pushed out beyond the boundaries of where we think we're comfortable . So then he's like says listen , I've longed to come to you guys for ages . Verse 24 I plan to do so while I go to Spain . And then he says to have you assist me . So he's like okay , what I'm gonna do is I've given you this letter . I want you fired up because I'm gonna go and read the Spanish and they'll be like , oh , you can't reach the Spanish , they'll never believe the gospel . And he's like no , honestly , I think they will . I think the Spanish , honestly , are gonna believe this .
Speaker 3But and then ? But I want you to get involved in that , because then you'll be fired up for this and I want to give you like an addiction , like I've got to get in the gospel out to places that no one's been , and pushing , pushing , pushing . And he does that be . And he , right at the beginning , he said I want to give you a spiritual gift . Right at the beginning , people go what is the spiritual gift he's got for them ? It's actually this the gift is a passion for evangelism . And that he said I want to give you a gift that will make you strong , and , of course , that church at Rome . Wow , they did go for it and over these next hundred years , well , britain itself was an evangelistic target from them .
Speaker 1Yeah , wonderful , wonderful , well , before he gets to that journey with some money from the Gentiles in Macedonia and Achaia Dwayne , how does this collection of money for the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem ? How does that show off the gospel ?
Speaker 4Well , let's just think about John 3 , 16 , where it says For God so loved the world that he gave , and so the scripture is about being a cheerful giver .
Speaker 4But I was brought to Acts in the early church when the believers first started getting saved , and these are jewish believers , and um , genealogies are probably parts of the bible we don't always enjoy , but um , they also are evidence of land being passed down from generation to generation .
Speaker 4So when we read that all of the believers gave up their land and gave their belongings and gave their things and put it all in the middle and nothing of their own was their own , what they've actually given up is their inheritance , and so there is a power that comes from the giving .
Speaker 4What I find that's so powerful about the gospel is that earlier on in Romans it talks about obviously , the Jews rejecting the gospel and the Gentiles being grafted in . It's almost like in this picture the Gentiles are now giving back to the Jewish people , who originally had given up their inheritance , for us to be able to receive and partake in this inheritance . And we have this Gentile people now blessing the Jewish people financially , blessing them in the natural , but also blessing them spiritually , and there is now this connection between Jew and Gentile and in Galatians , where it says there's no longer Jew or Gentile , the salvation has come to now the Jews and the Gentiles , and now we're able to bless one another and there is a drawing together and it shows the gospel , because it shows unity between the two different types of people who now no longer two different type of people , but one under the name of God and now all children of God . It's such a beautiful , incredible picture . That was just presented .
Speaker 1What an expression of the unity that we have in Jesus , jews and Gentiles , believers in Jesus . Wonderful , our time is gone . We can just keep going .
Speaker 2It's been such a helpful time .
Speaker 1Duane Paul Tobias , thank you once again for our study today . Thank you . I thank you once again for our study today . Thank you . Our key truth today is this the divisions of the world find loving unity in the church . I remember one church family I was part of . There , in one of the small groups was a man who'd made millions in the city and another who ran the local curry house . They were so different but they were Christian brothers and they loved each other . I remember coffee at the back of church . Somewhere else there was a woman who was a drug addict who , before she became a Christian , funded her addiction the only way she could chatting away to a lawyer who was also a church member . Their experience of life couldn't have been more different , but they were united in Christ . The gospel doesn't only create one global family . It teaches us how to live in that family and as we live together in that family , it's a showcase to the world of the day of Jesus that's coming . Until next time , god bless you and goodbye .
