Theology In Pieces
Join Slim Thompson, Malcolm Foley and many more to discuss and 'Apply the Gospel' into little bite sized pieces every week. email hello@theologyinpieces.com to ask questions or reach out.
Theology In Pieces
61 - I STAND WITH ISRAEL? When Empires Claim His Name...
Where does God stand when empires claim His name? This urgent question anchors our conversation about Christian responsibility in the face of violence happening in Gaza.
We dive deep into the theological underpinnings often used to justify unwavering support for the modern state of Israel. Genesis 12:3 – "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you" – has become a rallying cry for Christians supporting Israel's military actions. But does this represent faithful biblical interpretation or dangerous theological sleight-of-hand?
Malcolm and Slim challenge the collapse between biblical Israel and the modern nation-state, exposing how colonial logic portrays "the colonizer as victim and the colonized as aggressor." We examine President Biden's revealing statement that "if there were not an Israel, we'd have to invent one" to protect American interests in the region – demonstrating how geopolitical aims often drive theological positions.
The conversation takes us to Palestinian pastor Munther Isaac's powerful book "Christ in the Rubble," which asks where Jesus would be amid Gaza's destruction. The answer? Under the rubble with the suffering, not blessing the bombs that create it. This prophetic voice calls Western Christians to recognize their complicity through silence or uncritical support of violence.
While condemning all violence, including Hamas' October 7th attack, we question whether killing over 40,000 Palestinians represents a just response or betrays the teachings of Jesus, who commands us to love our enemies.
If these questions challenge you, join us in seeking answers through Palestinian Christian voices and the nonviolent resistance training offered by the King Center. How will you answer when future generations ask where you stood in this moment of moral crisis?
We also answer the Question, "Will those whose names were not written in the book of life ever have an opportunity to be redeemed, and escape the lake of fire?" And recommend you try The 4 Views of Hell Book to explore this further.
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yeah, oh, hey, we are back.
Speaker 2:Oh hey, with, yeah, you hear that guitar. Hey, welcome to the no Theology of Pieces, where we hope to rebuild your theology of the church, the world, or somebody, has shattered to pieces and we are your hosts, slim and Malcolm, and today I stand with Israel. Is that, do I, do you? That's what we're going to talk about. Oh boy, so we got lots to talk about.
Speaker 1:Spicy.
Speaker 2:Lots of spice. We try to keep things pretty vanilla on this podcast and not tackle hard subjects.
Speaker 1:I consider myself more of a chocolate man, but by which I mean I don't like either of those flavors.
Speaker 2:Nope, that's not the one I wanted.
Speaker 1:Slim, it's so it's so slim. My, my comedic timing is on point and you're messing it up.
Speaker 2:There we go, oh man, wow um, that brings us to the most important part of this podcast was, uh, our ratings and reviews. Uh, if you have failed to to give a rating or review, uh, would you do so?
Speaker 1:Those help a lot, especially when they're positive Uh yeah, we, we, we prefer the positive, yeah the bad ones. Let me just keep to yourself. Love you, but keep that to yourself.
Speaker 2:But Love you, but keep that to yourself. But we have a new review on Apple Podcasts and it's titled Soul in Pieces. Ooh, and OneBadger70 says two weeks ago I found this podcast. Now I'm through most of the past episodes. Wow, uh-oh, that's impressive. Oh, wow, well done. Well done, that's a lot and so a let's see and find a deeper part of me in flux. So a proper gospel response includes material actions and not just simple proclamations.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:And economic systems may have heavily influenced mainstream forms of theology in my upbringing.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm I think now the answer is yes. Please keep it coming. While much of this is uncomfortable and new, I have long wondered if the gospel requires something more, and this vision you described does bring me hope that there is a better way than I've known. Thank you both for your commitment to the needs of others. I really appreciate your witness in the current cultural landscape. Also, this is really where the best part of the review is. Let Slim run free with all the full effects buttons. Yes, that's what I'm talking about. And then he adds it's so messed up A complete train wreck.
Speaker 1:But it cracks me up, there you go.
Speaker 2:You know, if I could have on my tombstone, I've always said I would have a complete train wreck. Well, I've always said it'd be lots of regrets and then spell regrets bad. But it might be better just to say here lies Slim Thompson, a complete train wreck. I've always said it'd be lots of regrets and then spell regrets bad, uh, but it might be better just to say here lies slim thompson a complete train wreck I feel like that would contribute so much to the world.
Speaker 2:Uh, so that's, that's not my new thing. So, thank you uh. One badger 70 you've. You've now marked me for, uh, not eternity, because you know we hope christ raises the dead. Um, uh, but uh, at least until then people will see the tombstone and think, huh, they really slept. The complete train wreck. Oh, man. Malcolm, what would you have on your tombstone?
Speaker 1:Hmm.
Speaker 2:As always, I don't prepare him for any of these, and this was shooting from the hip.
Speaker 1:Yeah that I this was shoot from the hip. Yeah, uh, I feel like there was somebody who said the only thing I I guess the only thing I want to be known for is uh, is that I is that I loved Christ, loved my family and loved my church. That's all I sorry, that's all I need, that's all you went serious when. I'm saying a trade wreck. Yeah man, sorry, you asked me the question you asked me the question. I'm not funny, slim.
Speaker 2:You know this about me you're the funny one well now I feel guilty about my trade wreck idea, but it's fine. Well, hey, listeners, we are sorry.
Speaker 1:Well now, I feel guilty about my train wreck idea, but it's fine.
Speaker 2:Well, hey, listeners, we are sorry. It has been two months since we've last recorded. We deeply apologize. We know you are needing a daily fix of this and we've given you one every two months.
Speaker 1:I mean, we ain't going to be able to give it to you daily, but we've now committed to that.
Speaker 2:We've. I mean, we ain't gonna be able to give it to you daily, but we've now committed to that. We've now committed. Stop committing me to things, flo, not daily, but you know I don't like commitment. So does Desiree.
Speaker 1:You know what?
Speaker 2:Don't bring my wife into this when is this podcast going?
Speaker 1:She'll never hear this, so it's fine.
Speaker 2:Right, but we will be committing back to the schedule of once every two weeks. But it was the summer months. A lot of things have happened, malcolm. What were the last two months? Any big events, big gleanings from the lord or uh things that you feel like uh worth sharing here on the podcast? Any accolades, the?
Speaker 1:uh. So the, the free portion of my, of my book tour, uh, is about to end, and now the and now the travel. Now the travel begins, um, but but I, the high point of response to this book has just happened recently, because there's a? Um, there's a professor at eastern university, um, where they have a prison education program, and he's teaching a, a liberation theology course in prison. That sounds woke. Uh, it's awesome, is what it is? Uh, and the two texts at the center of his syllabus are James Cone's, the cross on the luncheon tree and the anti-greed gospel.
Speaker 1:And, and I'm going to, uh, I'm going to zoom into this, I'm going to, I'm going to zoom into this prison in a few, in a few weeks, and it'll be uh, and it'll be, you know, and these guys will have read the book and we'll talk about its content, what it means for them and what it means for broader society. And that is, of all the things that I am doing in the year after the book, this is what I am most excited for, and my dad actually has a friend who has actually been working at this particular prison for more than a decade and I got in touch with him and there might be some opportunities for me to be able to go there, for me to be able to go there in person and talk to folks. Wow, and when I first heard about, basically heard about the opportunity to do this, the first thing that came to mind it was like this is my, this is one of my opportunities to be obedient to christ and to visit and to visit the prisoner, um with. With how our system is set up, sometimes it's like it's hard to even get it get into those spaces, and so then to be, then to be invited um to talk about something that I think is, uh, is also kind of deeply revolutionary, um, I'm just, I'm really excited, I'm really excited for that opportunity.
Speaker 2:so wow, so yeah, that's cool dude that's really cool so what an honor I was thinking you were gonna come with me with, uh, with a five-star review.
Speaker 1:This is like hey, so like going to no, I mean like, like once I found out that that was not, but I, I was like I've done. I mean the book has gotten out to a number of folks, but to know that it's making like, I wrote it in a way that I wanted it to be accessible to everyone from wide, from, you know, kind of across all spectrums and things, and so to be able to speak at kind of universities and churches, cool. But to see it make it, see it make it into prisons, I'm like, oh, this is doing exactly. This is, you know, really doing. I mean more, really more than I than I hope.
Speaker 2:So that's great. That's awesome dude really cool. Um well, I I don't have that uh to to share no comparison now. But I've had a great summer. Got to go to Canada in our 51st state and soon to be probably.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's coming, we're coming.
Speaker 2:Any Canadians out there listening? We're coming Watch out Apparently. Yes, got to go there and it was absolutely gorgeous, wonderful, um, and then just uh, so go from. That was like late may, and then uh, to last night. I'm just uh, like I think that back to uh many regrets or a train wreck. Um, last night we had a church, had a skate night at the oh, yeah skating rink and did you embarrass I'm thinking of Agger's proverb in Proverbs 30, where he says I'm too stupid to be a man.
Speaker 2:I just feel like that's just more and more my life. You take that and I just say I'm going to embrace that, and so they were playing a game of red light, green light, yeah, and this is my time to shine. I've got to show everyone that I can get across that finish line first.
Speaker 1:Oh dear.
Speaker 2:And so I went across the whole skate rink without stopping because it was before he said red light.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:Beat everyone.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But you know, at full speed, right at the end there's really not a lot of room to stop. So I did like a spin. I'm actually decent on rollerblades.
Speaker 2:I did like a little spin in, okay, but there was another guy that was also trying to go full speed, yikes, and when I spin I kind of spin a little bit to the to the right and he was trying to curve around me and we just collided and it was. I'm limping right now. I'm walking with a limp, not emotionally or spiritually, but physically. I'm walking with a limp.
Speaker 2:I think I'm you're old, a giant bruise on my thigh now I'm glad no one tore an acl. Uh, it's so sucks to be old. Oh my gosh. Everything you have to think through now like yes should I do that? Yes, no?
Speaker 2:the answer is always yes until all right bro all right bro um, so yeah, uh, that, that's that's been fun. Um, um, so yeah, uh, that that's that's been fun. Um, I'm trying like there's no other highlights in my life. Um, you know, besides family love, all the good things, that's fine hey, the big, beautiful bill came out like we haven't talked about the big people.
Speaker 1:I mean, we don't, we don't have to god believe me, we don't. We don't have to uh, or as uh as christina edmondson I was talking to her about it the big beautiful trifling bill, oh um, but it's fine, we don't. Don't even worry about that. It might come out later.
Speaker 2:We'll, we'll yeah, what are you? I was gonna come to you, and no, we don't even need to.
Speaker 1:I don't even know why I brought it up. I don't, malcolm.
Speaker 2:I don't even know why people come to come here for our political takes I don't even know why I brought it up.
Speaker 1:Our terrible tweets. Let's talk about our terrible tweets. It'll come up. It'll come up later, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:All right, malcolm, here's a terrible tweet. Okay, this comes from one who is the name of this group. This is from one Homeland Security at DHS. They're my favorite, gov and they quote scripture oh, dhs, they're my favorite, and they quote scripture Praise the Lord, here am I send me, oh dear.
Speaker 1:This wouldn't be in reference to the United States military, would it? Or border patrol, would it?
Speaker 2:There's people putting gloves on flying in a helicopter over land into this really third world country which I think is america oh boy. Um oh, oh, ice agents. Oh, gearing up for? Oh, it's about ice?
Speaker 1:oh, I think so. So, apparently so what do you?
Speaker 2:what are your thoughts on? Like you, you like scripture correct, I do. I'm big fan of scripture, you like love the lord isaiah, Isaiah saying hear my send me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, specifically to offer a word of liberation to his people. Yeah, uh-huh. Well, I really judgment but also which is, I think, how they interpreted that- yeah, it's the same, right, yeah, this is the exact same circumstance militarized a militarized ice yeah, that's. This is, oh yeah, slim, this is. This is blasphemy is what it is I I it's blasphemy, it's taking the name of the lord in vain. It is a damnable offense and it's.
Speaker 1:It's coming from our white house or from like our government the official social media accounts are official social media accounts are wild that you're like this is like how is?
Speaker 2:this? How is this like a respectable institution? No, no, no, no, no, no. Like trump, put a ai image of him as superman, as like super trump, like there's just so much out there that you're like why?
Speaker 1:why is?
Speaker 2:this the way that we are, um, but this, this, as a christian, so, like other things we could just be annoyed by, but, like, as a Christian, like absolutely, we need to condemn these misuses and misapplications of scripture. It's Isaiah being called, as you said, to speak to liberate the nations, not to oppress the nations. And you know, trump just got nominated, um, uh, by um one particular uh government.
Speaker 1:we won't say who, for the nobel peace prize, and so he might see his work here as as liberating slim why, like, just every day, more and more absurd things take place and, yeah, that's what this, that's just what this is. Look. So, in speaking of, like, just egregious misuses of scripture and esau, um, nicole, I recently reflected on this too. But, uh, when speaker johnson and talking about the big beautiful bill, yeah, false, false reference to us, are you given the ministry of reconciliation, I'm just like you, like, like, like, like the, like the word, I feel like I'm gonna be overusing the word evil, but it's evil, like, it just is evil.
Speaker 1:It is evil for homeland security to use that language of isaiah to justify what is essentially not just the rap, not, it's. It's an issue already to just be randomly rounding up folks who are, um, uh, folks who are, folks who are, uh, undocumented, when being undocumented is is a civil offense and not a crime, but they're being treated as criminals. That's all, that's, that's already. That's all that's. It's evil for you to do that right is then?
Speaker 1:Is then also evil for you to then treat, because I guess I am going to talk about the big beautiful bill this but this but this legislation that is that is going to further militarize these police forces, to then use a text about that Paul is using about the cosmic reconciliation work through Christ between between Jew and Gentile, to then apply it to this evil thing that you were doing. These people, these people are these these people are heaping up judgment for themselves is what these people are doing? That's what they're doing, that's what they're doing, that's what's going on, and so, like that's the and I am entirely unafraid to use that language because it's just so obvious and it's been so obvious for a very long time yeah, yeah, it's calling evil good and good evil.
Speaker 2:And this is where it's really hard, because you're going, as you just said, like misusing the scripture, but you're misusing words. You're calling liberation to people and it's actually it's persecuting, it's kicking people out of the country, it's oppressing people. And not even always kicking them out like detaining them.
Speaker 1:$45 billion is going to detention centers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so this big, beautiful bill Even that beautiful big and Elon Musk, who everyone has problems with.
Speaker 1:Woe to you, woe to you.
Speaker 2:But even he was like you can call it big or you can call it beautiful, you can't call it both and it's not. I mean it's definitely big, it's not. I mean it's definitely big. It's not beautiful because of what it's now reallocating money for. It's adding, as you've heard probably on every other newscast of how many trillions of dollars of debt it's adding to the deficit. So it's not saving money. It's adding to the deficit, even though they'll say, no, it's saving money.
Speaker 2:Saving money, even though it the math people will say, even with a dynamic way of uh, calculating this, it adds debt to the, the, the national debt, whoa, and who cares about? Like? I mean, it's important to care about the money, but like what it's taking the money away from? And it's not just like taking money away from people who are sitting at home playing video games on their couch, as if, like, that's what they're living off of. It's saying we're going to take the money away from medicaid, so if someone can't have access, the only way you save that money is if they're not going to get the medical treatment that they need. And so this is where it it it's, it's evil, as you said, it is evil and we're calling evil good and good evil.
Speaker 1:Woe unto them that call evil good and good. Evil that put darkness for light, and light for darkness, that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Isaiah 520.
Speaker 2:And we have people in our church who are sharing. What message has been sent out to the education system about? To these, not principals? What's above the principal?
Speaker 1:Superintendents.
Speaker 2:Superintendents of like hey, hey, here's the things you have to cut funding wise, and they're saying like no, we're not gonna respond to that because that is helping, uh, the most vulnerable in our midst special needs children, like there's like things like this.
Speaker 1:You're like what are we doing? Look y'all, we're currently in a fascistic and authoritarian government, so yes but just fascistic, yeah, Patristic, fascistic, patristic.
Speaker 2:But but you were on a roll. Continue Well.
Speaker 1:I, it's just. It's just important for us to understand the stakes of the situation that we're in, um, and understand what it's going to, what it's going to look like for us to act accordingly, uh, and understand what it's going to, what it's going to look like for us to act accordingly, uh, if this comes out before saturday, uh, the um, the king center is doing a non-violence training, yep, uh, and you get access to also their non-violence 365 um curriculum, which, which is about 18 hours of of content. I will be, I will be doing that training. I also encourage everybody who is listening if you are looking for something to do, you are going to need, you are going to need resources to be able to resist injustice non-violently. This is going to be one of the most significant resources in your arsenal because I think, especially for us as the church, we are going to need as many resources as possible for us to be ready to, for us, for us, for us to be, for us to be ready to be able to to, to resist injustice, uh, non-violently.
Speaker 2:Um, folks need training, um, and this is this is an opportunity this saturday, uh, to train we'll put that link in the notes and if you are listening this after saturday, I do believe you can still access this not live, but it'll be the master class type style where you can go a self-paced yeah and so you still, because it is going to be something we will continually need.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, malcolm, we, because we, we, our last podcast, we had a, a top 10 list of q and a's. Yes, um, we, we left the the most burning questions for the end, which led us into a two-month break. So now we are going to transition to answering some of those burning questions that some of y'all had asked here locally, at the church. But we think you listeners, whether you're a Mosaic Wake or not, will probably benefit from some of these questions as well, and so the two questions left are will those names not written in the book of life ever have an opportunity to be redeemed and escape the lake of fire? And does Revelation command us to give special treatment to Jewish people? So we're going to go those in order in that way, and so let's start with the. Will those whose names were not written in the book of life ever have an opportunity to be redeemed and escape the lake of fire? Malcolm's going to argue yes, I'm going to challenge him.
Speaker 2:And here we go, false.
Speaker 1:No, I mean this. This is a. We serve a very. We serve a is a. We serve a very patient. We serve a very patient. God. God is referred to as patient and long-suffering and all of these things, but there is a point at which that patience runs out, and this is why I mean, even in oh, it's either 1st or 2nd peter, I can't remember now, um, but we're reminded that um, basically, the reason why the world continues, the reason why the lord has not set everything right, uh, is because the lord is patient. He is giving people a chance, he's giving people a chance to repent now, um, but after he, after he returns. Like it is, it is gay, it is game over. You will be, it is, it is um, uh, it's in hebrews that it is, that it is um, that it is humanity's fate to, to, to die, to die once, and to die and be and be judged once, um, yeah, once that. Once that happens, it's it's uh, it's it's game, it's game over.
Speaker 2:So, malcolm, how would you respond then to someone who might say 2 Corinthians 5.14, for Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all and therefore all died, and so Jesus died for all. So wouldn't that mean that all get to be reconciled?
Speaker 1:No, I would say that all get to be reconciled. No, I would say so one of the things that you know I don't take—we can get into the nitty-gritty of Reformed theology here, or we can go another route, because I don't go the route—let's see. How do I want to break this? I don't want to break this down.
Speaker 1:I think it's really important in our preaching and also in our theology to affirm that Christ died for all humanity, that he took on flesh for all humanity, but that doesn't mean that everyone gains that eternal life just by virtue of Christ dying, like like we have to be.
Speaker 1:We have to be linked, we have to be actively linked to that reality, and what and what we're told in the scriptures is that is that faith is what faith is, the instrument that does that by the power of the Holy spirit. Yeah, so apart from that, apart from that faith and apart from that Holy spirit, christ, christ, christ's life, and apart from that Holy Spirit, christ's life, death and resurrection doesn't have life-giving benefit for us. And so it's really important to understand and this is just kind of a general thing there is no life apart from Christ, and so if you refuse that life, there's nowhere else to find it, but in the incarnation and death and resurrection of Christ. Christ has opened that. He's opened that door for us, but the only way for it to actually benefit us is if we're linked to him by faith and by means of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a great book that I think Preston Sprinkle was the editor of and it's the Four Views on Hell and it's kind of points and counterpoints, and so they kind of say the literal view of eternal conscious torment, the conditional view of the afterlife, and that death is the payment, the penalty which we can have. On a separate conversation.
Speaker 1:I think that's where I'm landing. Yeah, that's another set of conversations.
Speaker 2:I think that's where I'm landing. And then there's the purgatory view which I think Preston later is like well, that's not really. That ends up being a everyone gets reconciled view.
Speaker 2:But, there's the universalist view and Robin Perry argues for that in his book and I think it's a helpful book. So I think it's helpful if you are curious to hear the best arguments, and I think Robin does a great job making the case. I think what he argues is that you know, there's the 1 Timothy 2.4 talking about you know God wants all desires, all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth and so, like I mean that's a compelling verse, that we have a God who wants all people to be saved and I think we also.
Speaker 2:I think some people in maybe the Reformed camp are going like yeah, those are reprobate, we're elect. Some people would do that, and glory to God when they burn in hell.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, well, I mean, and even then, I mean, we have the scriptures that remind us that the Lord doesn't delight in the destruction of the wicked. It's important and this is where we get into a broader conversation this comes up in the context of some of the things that you were talking about in recent sermons on Job, the language that surrounds the way that we talk about God's will, and some have broken it down into God's decretive and permissive will, that is, the things that he allows to happen and the things that he actually wants to happen. But there is a distinction that we do have to make when we talk about God's will, about like, we're talking about the things, the things that are under, kind of under his, under his eye and under his control, and the things that he, the things that god actively, actively wants, like, actively wants to do and is going to, uh, expend divine energy, so to speak, to do, to do those things. Um, cause, like it is, it is, it is God's will effectively to, to, to, to draw, to draw humanity to himself in in Christ, um, and that's something that he, like, has done and and actively, you know, and actively does do.
Speaker 1:Um, when we talk about uh, but there. But when we look at evil especially, one of the things that the christian tradition is is very consistent on is that god is not the god is not the author of evil. Evil does not come from evil. Moral evil does not come from, does not come from the lord uh, it comes from us and from the demons. Um, but uh, yeah, those you, you get into those distinctions when you have these conversations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think there is a affirming for 72 that that, that that God desires all to be saved, and I think, based on that verse alone, I feel like the Christian position ought to be um one of the the the views of hell.
Speaker 2:But at you should at least be wanting universalist view to be true, like I think that if God desires all to be saved, we should want all to be saved. So when I do encounter people who hold more of a universalist view or answer to this particular question that someone can be saved after death, a post-death opportunity for reconciliation, I'm like I love your heart, I want that to be true. But there's so many other passages in scripture that refer to the judgment of God and of hell, and so we can talk about that on another podcast. But you go, well, then what would that be? And is it, as some might then say, the hell is? But like that, you go, well then what is, what would that be? And, you know, is it, as some might then say, the hell is the purgatory, the purifying part to get you ready for heaven.
Speaker 1:And I that's where I think from the Catholic tradition, would, would, would, would fall, and so I'm like no here's the thing, though I also don't want that to be abstracted from its, from its context, uh, which is, uh, paul's just immediately prior, called people to pray for kings and those in authority, and and what, and like?
Speaker 1:It's specifically in the context of you being under kings and folks who are in authority, who are, like, manifestly evil, and so like. So it's also paul saying like, hey, like, even, like even they, like we want to pray the best, like we want to pray the best for them. So this is actually especially, uh, actually especially relevant for us now, when we have a morally bankrupt federal government and we could be tempted, well, I'm not, like, I'm not even gonna pray, like, I'm not even gonna pray for them. Yeah, this was an accusation back in the first trump presidency when I said some of this stuff and uh, and we were still in the pca and there were and I think there were members of our oversight who thought that this meant that I like hated trump as a person. And so in one of these discussions that we had about one of my sermons, you know, one of the elders kind of indignantly asked, like, told me to like pray for our president.
Speaker 2:It was so uncomfortable. It was, it was. It was. It was like hey, can you pray for him right now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like but.
Speaker 1:but I was like, I was like knowledge of the Lord and then like, just like, you handle it well, I was like, but like I wanted to punch him, I know. There was a, there was a part of me that obviously felt that too.
Speaker 1:But but like but that's the but, that's also the context in which you get this statement, that that, that that I mean Paul says this is, this is good and pleases God, our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. So, like that, that context for that verse also kind of adds, adds, adds some teeth to it, because you're still speaking to a people who are in you know, who are in a hostile, who are in a hostile government, and and we're being called to pray, to pray for those leaders, for the purpose that we might be able to live peaceful and quiet lives and all godliness and holiness, um. So that's even my prayer. I mean, that's my prayer today, even for um, for our uh Kings and all those in authority.
Speaker 2:That's good. That's good. Um, I'll put the link of that um, that, uh, four views of hell book in in the show notes. The other big question and this is where I title the podcast to stand with Israel or not is the question here does Revelation or the Bible command us to give special treatment to Jewish people? And Malcolm is? Malcolm affirms the Bible, I do, I do do that. Therefore, when Genesis 12. 3 says to Abraham what's it say?
Speaker 2:I will bless those who bless you Come on now and whoever curses you, I will curse Amen, and all the peoples on earth will be blessed through you, amen. This verse right here is where you may have heard recently one Ted Cruz find himself quoting to Tucker Carlson Did you see this interview?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did, to which I would ask the question is Abraham present, such that this would apply to anything that I do?
Speaker 2:Well, it's his people which become Israel.
Speaker 1:But he says I'll make you, but he's talking to.
Speaker 2:He's talking to abram, yeah, yeah, his people and I'll, and I'll, yeah, yeah, so it's whatever the jewish people, and so this verse here, here um is used as the primary verse, um that christians all over the world have used to to be able to think about, about our relationship with the nation state of Israel.
Speaker 1:It's bad Bible reading and bad political theology.
Speaker 2:Why do you say so, Malcolm?
Speaker 1:Because all this is used specifically to justify our relation with a particular nation state. Our relation with a particular nation state and the fact of the matter is is that my allegiance is not to any nation state, not even to the one of which I am a citizen. My allegiance is, first and foremost, is first and foremost to Christ and the people that he's gathered, and we need to be unapologetic about that is first and foremost to Christ and the people that he's and the people that he's gathered. Um, and I'm on a and, and we need to be, and we need to be, unapologetic about that. I'm reading through um Barry Harvey, a piece of uh, a Baylor professor, but he's got a book that just that just came out.
Speaker 1:It's called uh, madness on the church, and one of the and one of the things he wants to press is that like, like we're supposed to be, a people whose allegiance is very like, is very clearly focused on one end, and that end is christ, and what and what's going to happen is that's going to put us. It's going to put us in conflict with the two other things that claim to be that that essentially aim for our religious devotion, and it's the nation state and the market, and we and we've spent a lot of our we spent a lot of our energy as Christians finding ways that we can just kind of go along, to get along within the ideologies of the nation state and of the market, and one of the things that he wants to press is like, no, like Jesus is what Jesus is over all of that. And so when they come into contact, okay, they're going to come into contact, but we need to stop spending all of our energy trying to find out how do we fit and instead be primarily thinking about how am I obedient, how am I obedient to Christ? And so if I see any nation state enacting genocide, killing children, whatever my own, or Israel or whatever like I, I have to have the, I have to have the moral clarity to be able to, to be able to to say that and condemn its evil for what it is. So, for example, when you know when, uh, jeremiah Wright, jeremiah Wright was preaching his God, god damn America.
Speaker 1:Sermon, whoa, it's, it's. I mean each of those words in the technical sense, that is, that is we, that is, we expose ourselves to judgment when we do things that God has very clearly told us are wrong.
Speaker 2:So, whether it's so so, so, so, so so yeah, all that, that that's good, that's good, um, I mean, I think when, uh, so my first thought, when, uh, the this question was asked, uh, was you know when? The question of you know, does the bible teach, command or command us to have a special treatment to jewish people? Um, I think I understand and and obviously I understand and people can point to this passage, but in general of like, okay, yeah, god worked through the people of Israel throughout the Old Testament, jesus was Jewish, right, like there's a. Yeah, it seems like you should defer here, but a special treatment is now going like, is it? Do we? We honor them above others? Um, do we, um, do we lift them up? Um above others?
Speaker 2:And this is where I think the the new testament makes very clear that, like, the gospel is going out to all people, to all. Uh, you know, I'm thankful, um, that the gospel, that paul preached the gospel to the gentiles, because we are those people, um, that it's going all out. But then you do, you then say, but these are our ancestors, it's like, you know, honoring your grandma and grandpa. You're like, yeah, but I got a, I got a special place for them. And this is where I think, like I again, I understand it, but I go. But the Bible speaks directly against this in Romans nine.
Speaker 1:And even then, at no point in the scriptures does the word Israel refer to the nation state, the current nation state of Israel. Which is a thing that people apparently don't understand.
Speaker 2:Like wait, what's the difference there, malcolm? What's the difference? Isn't that the same people?
Speaker 1:No, this is a very particular nation state that started in the 1940s. It's got its own, which has its own history.
Speaker 2:So, people, after World War II and the Holocaust there was a desire to give Israel its nation state, out of reparations, we could say, for the atrocity that happened to the people of Israel. And we all go, yeah, lament what happened, and so then 1948 happens, but is it as if that land was just uninhabited?
Speaker 1:that's how all these things are treated, that's how colon, that's how colonial logic, that's how colonial logic works.
Speaker 2:And that's where I've not read up. And I, as a uh, you know like, uh, as a christian, you, you grow up and you go well, support Israel. Like I stand with Israel, which is after October 7th was these signs and flags were everywhere. I stand with Israel. And so the question of this podcast is do we stand with Israel and what does that mean? And so it's standing with the nation state of Israel, which, as malcolm said, is different than what the bible talks about, with israel, and even like the specific of not all israel, israel, um, that they're not the seed of abraham's children, um. And the other response I would have is how many times in the old testament did israel's kings do evil things?
Speaker 2:that god rebuked them for.
Speaker 1:And judged them for.
Speaker 2:And sent them into slavery. Like there are so many times when you cannot have a blind loyalty and allegiance to a nation state, anybody, because you know they are tempted towards corruption. And right now the Christian posture is we baptize anything Israel does because it is God's people. And so what? And you say that that seems extreme, slim, but no, no, fantastic book I highly recommend. It's called Christ in the Rubble, faith, the Bible and the Genocide in Gaza and it's written by a Palestinian pastor named Munther Isaac, and our church is doing book clubs through the summer and I'm leading one through this book that I'm reading as we go.
Speaker 2:It's not as if I'm going, hey, here, let me teach this book. I'm reading as we go and I'm reading this and I'm underlining every page, page starring, uh, dog, uh, earring each page, going like, oh my gosh, this is so like it, it, it. It feels like we're like the veil is being pulled off. Going like I didn't know this stuff was existing. It's almost as if, um, someone were to be alive in the 1940s and and. And they go hey, jim crow's happening. And someone goes what? No, I've been told that like, we're past that I've been told that that's not what we do anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then be like no, here is the lived experiences yeah, like people are dying people are dying and this is, I feel like I'm reading this, it's, it's and, as he says, faith, the bible and the genocide in Gaza, yeah, and so one of his, his, uh, first or early chapters, um, the second chapter is the war did not start on October 7th, yeah, and so he talks about how the every, everywhere he goes when people want to talk to him about Israel, palestine, yeah, everyone has to say but you condemn Hamas.
Speaker 1:You condemn October 7th. Yeah, you condemn Hamas, right.
Speaker 2:You condemn Hamas, and he's always like absolutely. And what's beautiful about his writings is he is a committed. He is so committed to nonviolence. He is a committed pacifist to nonviolence Because he's a Christian. No, I'm kidding and he's like I am just appalled that the Western church is normalizing violence to such an extent that it's right.
Speaker 1:We've been doing it for the entire history of American Christianity. It was founded in violence. Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:And so in our book club.
Speaker 1:I'm not sorry, but.
Speaker 2:The question that keeps coming up from the book club is like because the arguments against not supporting Israel is okay?
Speaker 2:God supports Israel, and there's these people in Israel's land and he says, okay, go, take out the Amalekites, go, wipe them off the face of the earth. How is it any different for Israel, now the nation state, to see Palestine and say wipe them off the face of the earth. How is it any different for Israel, now the nation state, to see Palestine and say wipe them off the face of the earth, which is what our senators are?
Speaker 1:saying oh yeah, they're saying it.
Speaker 2:And so, like Lindsey Graham has a quote where he's like this is not a political war, it's a religious one. Yeah, and so when we make our war a religious war, what bad could happen from that, malcolm? What do you think?
Speaker 1:Well, the thing is-.
Speaker 2:It's like the Crusades.
Speaker 1:Well, the thing is, and when you're convinced that God has told you to do something, there is no convincing you out of it.
Speaker 2:This is what they say. This is what Hamas believes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:And so if we were on that same page, I'm going no, I yeah, this is, this is, this is for god and when you and I I was telling this to I think I was telling this mosaic in the time soon after october 7th I was like, look, like revenge only breeds revenge, like it's one of the reasons why Paul calls us not to ever take revenge in Romans 12, because one of the reasons is that it only breeds revenge and the only way that revenge can possibly be satisfied is by the eradication of the other. And if we're to be a people who are called to love not only our neighbors and our brothers and sisters, but even our enemies, like that that's just not. That can't be on the, that just can't be on the agenda it just can't be on the agenda no, I mean he october 7th, he condemns.
Speaker 2:He's like absolutely it's. It's killing people is evil, ugly, it's heinous. And but he's like, is the brutal killing of 42,000 Palestinians since then, which has obviously gone up by more, a just response to the killing of 1200 Israelis? And it's like absolutely not. And so when he goes into this, I mean this, this book is is fantastic, like it's talking about how, like this is really it's what it is, is it's colonialism cloaked with the software of, of, of this biblical theology that justify the war. And so he talks about colonialism or coloniality, and he has this quote oh, I got to find it from what you might expect might come from from Donald Trump, but it comes from joe biden. It's from joe biden.
Speaker 2:It says if there were not in israel, we'd have to invent one, leaving the unspoken explanation that he gave in 1986 were there not in israel, the united states would have to invent another israel to protect her interest in the region. There we go, there it is. And so what he? We're very clear about why? The naked self interest of the United States, of course. And so I'm doing this book club with people and I was like what does that sound like? They're like that sounds like Malcolm's book. I was like, absolutely there you go.
Speaker 1:It's just the logic of evil. It's just the logic of evil. It's just how evil works.
Speaker 2:You're going to see it everywhere If there were not an Israel we'd have to invent one so that we could say no, it's right for us to have a presence in the Middle East, and that is the driving force that we then use the software of the biblical theology to support Israel.
Speaker 1:It justifies, it just justifies our self-interest. That's all these things do.
Speaker 2:yep, goodness, yeah, yep it is absolutely wild man and that's, that's the other thing.
Speaker 1:like when you like, when you notice all of this like moral somersaulting and hand-wringing and stuff, like, the question that you ask is just who? Who stands to gain? Who stands to gain from you putting so much on the line for this? Well, so like, and you doing all of these like cartwheels and stuff? Who stands to gain from you holding this, from you holding this position? Yeah, um, and in in many of these situations, especially when you see the justification of what's, what appears to be and what is just profound and seemingly undeniable evil, you find somebody, somebody's benefiting from it.
Speaker 1:I think about it and thinking of the tens of billions of dollars going to that goes back to the big, beautiful bill, but the, the immigration centers and stuff like that. Like you ask what, what could possibly? Why would someone do this kind of thing? Because there are some people who stand to gain a lot of money from it. That's what it is and they're in the ears. They're in the ears of our political system and have been so for decades, and it's just like that's. We're going to sound like conspiracy theorists, but that's how this works man, self-interest.
Speaker 2:What's it all about? This is where I'm like usually you don't care about things until you have a proximity to them, unless you know you might be like I wish the poor people would just bring themselves up by the bootstraps and work harder. And then you meet someone and you're like oh, I see how that happened. That happened because of this, this and this, and also maybe the system is not as inviting for you to succeed as we thought it might be, and I think we're not hearing a Palestinian voice on what's happening here. We have the narrative, or you could say propaganda. That would be right or you could say propaganda.
Speaker 1:That would be right.
Speaker 2:That it is. You have terrorists. Any killings of Israelis is terrorism, which, again, he and I and all of us are against. Any violence, yes. And then any killings of the Palestinians is byproducts of war, and he goes into like he's like it doesn't start on Octoberober 7th, but we have had 76 years of of you know, thousands upon thousands, upon thousands of kids and women killed and murdered and, in christians in particular, bombings of churches. That you're going like this is indiscriminate killing. That you go like as a brother in christ, do I care more about that or my political commitment here, and so like, oh man, if you wrestle with whether you should stand with israel or not, um, I would just say, read this book like this is. We were at a theology and peace, uh, theology, we're gonna have a new theology and pieces conference um theology in the raw conference.
Speaker 2:That that and and Preston gave out these books to everyone there Um, that cause it. It just came out this past year. Like it's it, he's got sites, you know, quotes from people in 2024. It's it's, I think, will help challenge your thinking To me. I'm just like it is absolutely wild.
Speaker 2:I feel like this is I've told Malcolm. I feel like this is like Martin Luther King's letters from a Birmingham jail of just like where is the church? And as he's talking here, he's not like it is a super prophetic book. He's going and he quotes some of his, he puts quotes from his sermons in here and he's putting this call out to the church, saying, like Christian pastors in the Western Christian church, I'm holding you responsible for the genocide that's happening here because you are giving cover for your political leaders to do what's happening. It's like gosh, yeah, yeah, man. I mean he doesn't pull punches. Yeah, gosh, yeah, yeah, man. I mean it is. He doesn't pull punches. It's called Christ and the rubble because on the cover he's got this picture from this nativity scene there their church did when they they said you know what we're? We're going to not cancel Christmas, but we're going to cancel our expression of Christmas. And then the news got out that they were canceling Christmas and the birthplace of Jesus, but it's a picture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it's from Bethlehem, like the Bethlehem yeah.
Speaker 2:And so it's a picture of rubble and they put, like this small baby Jesus in the midst of it. And what I think is beautiful about this is he's asking the question like similar to what we talked about on Sunday with Job of like where is God when these evil things happen? And he's I mean this is not like a philosophical, clinical discussion for them, they are actively worrying if their church and themselves are gonna get bombed. And he's like, where is God when this is happening? And his answer is if God were here today, he'd be under the rubble. Like the empire is doing violence to God. And it's like what do I think about that? Like you can't, you can't hurt God, you can't do violence to God. But if God so identifies himself with the most vulnerable, he is under the rubble and you're not sure whether someone's alive or not under that rubble. And that's the.
Speaker 1:I'm just like, ah, he is a it like oh he's a, it's a powerful book have I told you how much I love this book. He loves slim, loves this book y'all goodness read this book. Slim slim loves it, so um it's not often that we get that. We get a, a, a, a full-throated book recommendation from slim. So I think it's. I think it's important that we take this very seriously.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, I'm not even going to add a sound effect. I was thinking about adding a sound effect to that. So, malcolm, yes, sir.
Speaker 2:How do you convince someone? Because there are churches in our city that have supporting israel as a part of their, their mission or their values they do like how do you can? How do you convey this to someone, a family member, a church to challenge them? And most churches are just going to be quiet on the issue, if not now some churches publicly supportive of israel. So, man, my thing is just I.
Speaker 1:We are just not as single-minded of a of a church as we need to be, and I'm I'm in ecclesiastes mode, so I'm it's like I'm about to preach on ecclesiastes this sunday and like every part, it's all meaningless every, every podcast that I've done, that I've done this week, I have, like, mentioned ecclesiastes and all of them, just because, like I like I really need us to take to heart the fact that, like, nothing matters except christ, that there is no allegiance that matters except our allegiance to christ, and we need to stop all these other like we need to just just like actively drive out all competing, like all competing allegiances. The reason why, the reason why I love my wife in the way that I do, is because of my commitment to Christ.
Speaker 2:The reason why.
Speaker 1:I love my children in the way that I do is because of my commitment to Christ, like all of these things flow necessarily from the fact that I love the Lord, who died for me and was raised for me. And so when that Lord tells me that there is no, that there ought to be nothing in my mind that justifies the death of another human being, I then apply that as widely as possible. As widely as possible. So when I see all of the acts of all modern nation states because the fact of the matter is is that modern nation states just justify and maintain their existence by violence, it's just true period for everybody that that already indicates to me my, my, my fund, my fundamental allegiance cannot be driven by my relationship with that nation state. You can write books arguing that particular point.
Speaker 1:I'm just going to give it to you in a sentence that commitment to Christ necessarily means that that is not just your first priority but really your only priority. Like you have to think about how you have to, you have, you have to be able to narrate your life in such a way that every single other one of your priorities flows from that one, because that's the only one that matters. So that, but that then gives you a clarity, because then when you see evil, you can just call it evil and you don't need to dance around it. You don't need to say but, but, but, but, but no. Jesus told us this is the way that we're supposed to operate. That is not that. So I'm going to, so I'm going to resist it, like so, so, so, so so for.
Speaker 1:So for folks who kind of find that confusing, I just want to offer I'll like look, you say you're a Christian, say that you're united to Christ. That means to Christ. That means that you share his priorities. This is his priority. What you're saying is not that. So we're going to need to conform. I think as a Christian we're called to conform to Christ. So if I can show you that that doesn't match up with what Christ says, I've done what.
Speaker 2:I need to do. Here's where I think Christians will go. Yeah, I'm with you on a personal level, but when it comes to warfare, there's a different category. So, like it's thou shalt not murder, not, thou shalt not kill, and so killing is different than murder. And so it's in war that it is allowed because you have god commanding israel to go and kill cool.
Speaker 1:That ain't got nothing to do with you, though like how do you respond?
Speaker 2:because that was that I think I started on that train in our book club, that is, that was the common question. That that our group had was like so what do we do with that? Because I feel like that is a lot of people asking like hey, so god seems to be commanding killing in the old testament. Yes, so why is that not the same now?
Speaker 1:because he's not doing it to you or any or any modern nation state. This is what, when, when, when, when the the it's. It's really important that also like in christ, in christ, in christ coming and gathering and gathering the church, and especially like grafting gentiles into it, like we, if we're going to think about what god has to say to god's people, the, the most significant word that God has for his people is Christ, is Christ. Don't try to back up and be like, well, what about this? No, no, no, I want you to focus. This is my thing.
Speaker 1:All of these things end up being distractions from the fact that Jesus has told us like this. It's why he came. He came to tell us everything that we need to know about God. It's one of the things that John presses in the beginning of the gospel that no one has seen God but the only begotten son of God has made, has made God known. We.
Speaker 1:If you want to know who God is and what God requires of you, that, if that's the question that you have, look at Jesus. When you do that, you will then. When you do that, you will then have, you will then have the framework that you need to understand all, all the things that surround Jesus, but, but, but, but, I, but I want if there is one thing this is a broader part of my own, I think pastoral ministry I want, I, the only thing, in some ways, the only thing I want before your eyes as you go through your lives, is Christ, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. I'm going through this book on um. You know my I was. I was joking with a friend that, like my pleasure, reading is just a rotation between, like Greek spiritual texts that are no newer than 700 years old, and uh, and, and Marxian scholarship and racial capitalism stuff, like that's.
Speaker 2:Like that's my that's my typical reading for anyone.
Speaker 1:That's my that's my pleasure reading, but there's, but there's this, this, but there's this book by this uh, it's actually a greek theologian of the last, um, last century, but he's like the whole purpose of human life is is christification, that is, that is, it is god making us like christ, um, and so what? So like, that's what you like, that's what our lives are about, and so what that then means is, when I go through life and I have difficult conversation and I have different, difficult decisions to make and judgments to make and stuff like that, one of the one of my primary questions is Lord, how can you use this to make me like Christ? That's the most important question you can ask. What is it that Christ would have me do in this situation? How is it, how is it, lord, that you can use this to make me, to make me like Christ? Those are the, those are the questions, those are the questions that that that matter, and so, yeah, and so like, so.
Speaker 1:So there may be other questions that we have. I'm not diminishing those questions, but I but what? What I do want to say is that, like, look, what, what, what drives your action and your assumptions about God and all those things, what we're told in the scriptures is you want to know who God is? Look at Jesus. You want to know what God has for you to do? Ask, ask Jesus. Cause you've you've got that content and just most of us are just uncomfortable with that content. So we find a whole bunch of other questions that we have because we don't want to listen to Jesus when he tells us to do uncomfortable stuff, cause we're like, well, that's what Jesus said.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think. What does it mean to go to Jesus? Look at Jesus. I mean you have the Gospels. I think just be start a place to start Sermon on the Mount.
Speaker 1:He says love your enemies Already. Already any of your justifications for war are done away with in that simple command.
Speaker 2:It is hard to love your enemies when you're dropping bombs on them.
Speaker 1:It's really difficult, it's really difficult, it's really difficult, especially when love is defined in the scriptures as a material investment in your neighbors will be and we have christians, quote unquote signing the bombs that are going on, these, these war machines to drop on other christians in gaza.
Speaker 1:Ever since Christians got into their minds that we can hang out with empire and we can use the same tools and stuff. Once that entered into the moral imagination of Christians, the justification of war and violence came with it. Because they're like this is what empire does, and in order for us not to be found on the wrong side of that, let's find ways to justify it. And in the first few centuries of the church, the people of God were like nope, we don't play a part in that. Sure, that might expose us to persecution, but we're not down for that because our first and foremost allegiance is to Christ and Christ has told us to treat people in this way. So we're going to do that comprehensively.
Speaker 2:I kind of want to just end this. I'm excited. I want to end this with just reading an excerpt from this book.
Speaker 1:Please.
Speaker 2:He says, and this is from one of his sermons. He says in the shadow of the empire, they turned the colonizer into the victim and the colonized into the aggressor. They turned the colonizer into the victim and the colonized into the aggressor. Have we forgotten that the state was built on the ruins of the towns and villages of those very same Gazans? We are outraged by the complicity of the church. Let it be clear silence is complicity, and empty calls for peace without a ceasefire and an end to occupation, and shallow words of empathy without direct action are all under the banner of complicity. So here is my message Gaza today has become the moral compass of the world. Gaza was hell on earth before October 7th and the world was silent. Should we be surprised that they are silent now? If you are not appalled by what is happening in Gaza, if you are not shaken to your core, there is something wrong with your humanity.
Speaker 2:And I'll jump down here and this is where I he is clearly calling it out and and not pulling punches. But then he says here but again, for those who are complicit, I feel sorry for you. Will you ever recover from this? Your charity, your words of shock after the genocide won't make a difference. And I know those words of shock are coming and I know people will give generously for charity. Your words of shock after the genocide won't make a difference. And I know those words of shock are coming and I know people will give generously for charity, but your words won't make a difference. Words of regret will not suffice for you. And let me say this we will not accept your apology after the genocide. What has been done has been done and I want you to look at the mirror and ask where was I when Gaza was going through a genocide? That question of how will you ever recover from this, I think about when we think about the logic of empire and violence.
Speaker 2:Obviously it's affecting people, but he's saying how is it affecting your own soul? Moral decay is very difficult to heal from, so the lord can do it but it's, it's hard yeah, um, so uh to to the. To the original question um, does the bible command us? To give special to the jewish people, we would resoundingly say no to see the imago day, uh, that God has imprinted on every single human being, and to care for and to cherish all of life, and to be advocates for all of life and to never put up with violence.
Speaker 2:So kind of a light episode, right, that was hot, that was hot.
Speaker 1:I'm sweating.
Speaker 2:I am sweating too, but I'm going to just temperature this room but, hey, man, uh, grateful for you, glad to be back on the podcast with you and discuss light topics like this. Yeah, um, if there's uh y'all have any questions, you can send us a question in there. If you have more questions about this, um, obviously, uh, please do so. Happy to talk more about it, um, or you can uh email us hello at theology piecescom. You can find us on Instagram, facebook or Twitter. We'll put all those links in there, but the best way to support this, as always, is give it a rating and review. So, if you found it helpful, we've seen a lot more reviews come in, a lot more ratings come in. It does help others find it, so please do so. We'll put all those those links in the show notes. Sign up for the the King center for nonviolence.
Speaker 2:Um, as well as grab a couple of these books. These are fantastic, are y'all? Have a great week, see ya. We'll see you next time.