Theology In Pieces
Join Slim Thompson, Malcolm Foley and many more to discuss and 'Apply the Gospel' into little bite sized pieces every week. email hello@theologyinpieces.com to ask questions or reach out.
Theology In Pieces
69 - BEST IN SHOW '25
The Winner of 2025's best episode this past year was:
Episode 56 - The Anti-Greed Gospel: A Revolutionary Conversation with Malcolm Foley on the Battle with Mammon.
No surprise. Malcolm is pretty great. Thank you all for listening, sharing, and reviewing! Keep sharing in 2026. We're working on a few things behind the scenes to make this podcast even better.
Runner's up from 2025:
If you haven't listened to our back catalog - Start with to today's episode, then check these two out, and let us know what episode has caught your attention!
Links from this episode:
- Trump Gaza
- "I...We are the Law"
- "He who saves his Country does not violate any Law"
- Megan Basham's critique of the Black Fellowship Dinner
- David French's kind response to an "opponent."
If this conversation helps you, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review. Your support helps more people find thoughtful, grounded faith in a loud, fearful world.
For more information, you can follow us at
https://www.theologyinpieces.com/
Theology in Pieces on Instagram - @theologyinpieces
Email us by emailing hello@theologyinpieces.com
Malcolm Foley - on twitter @MalcolmBFoley
Slim Thompson on twitter @wacoslim
For more information on the church,
check us out at www.mosaicwaco.org or on instagram.
Hey, hey, hey, hey! What's up? Podcast Listener World. We know you've uh been uh enjoying your Christmas New Year season, uh having to rewatch old shows, probably re-listen to old uh podcast episodes. That's not what we're doing here. No, that's act is ac actually exactly what we're doing here. Um in uh as we kick off the new year of 2026, wild, um, we are going to play uh uh one of the top episodes from this past year of 2025, and we are going to uh kick off the season uh remembering your top episode, your most listened to episode of 2025. Um some other um uh runners up to that, um, and we'll we'll list these these in the the show notes if you have yet to go back and listen to. So uh some ones that you found helpful or got shared and re-listened to a few times uh was episode 59 with the letter T. Um, like uh Sesame Street. Um and if you've not listened to the episode, give it a listen. It's not about Sesame Street, um, it's about consider consist considering the question of um how do how should we think theologically, biblically, um um carefully around the topic of transgender. Uh so that's episode 59. Um another really important one that people um seem to enjoy and listen to a lot was episode 61, I stand with Israel, uh, when empires claim his name, and oh man, uh that thing got spicy. Um there was a lot of spice in uh in season uh three of our podcast. And so we are thankful for uh all you guys who continue to listen. Uh please, please, please um share with a friend if you found any of this stuff helpful. It really has helped uh grow the podcast so people could listen. And it is just uh encouraging to us when not just you share it, not just when you review it, but when you you email us and let us know um what what stood out, what was helpful. But we also love when you disagree with us. Uh so please always send us your emails, your questions, your thoughts, all of that. But this year's top episode was comes from episode 56, the anti-greed gospel, a revolution in conversation with Malcolm Foley on the battle with Mammon. This was the one that kicked off 2025, and it was the one that we unveiled Malcolm's new book, The Anti-Greed Gospel. So uh without further ado, I hope you guys enjoy this uh top episode from 2025. Bye y'all. Oh yeah. Hey everybody. I know you've been begging for it. We're back. We are back at it. And we got, as you can hear, some some new music. Uh it took us three months to figure out what song to choose.
SPEAKER_02:Uh, you guys are just getting a glimpse into Slim's aesthetic uh musical taste. That's what that's what this is. That's that's the Slim vibe.
SPEAKER_00:Oh man. Welcome to Theology Pieces, where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church and the the world or somebody has shattered to pieces, and we are your host, Slim and Malcolm. And today we have a very, very special guest.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, we do, do we?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, this this new critically acclaimed, very critical of this author, one Malcolm Foley. Uh oh. Woo! And he is presenting his new book, The Anti-Greed. Gospel. Remember all that? A little bit long. Uh-huh. Let's give it a round of applause. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. It's good to be with you, Slim. Studio, studio live audience here. It's good to be with you. Yeah, man. We have to we have to apologize to our our our listeners here. Uh it it it has been three months since we've recorded, which is a big no-no. Hopefully, we still have listeners at this point in the podcast world. Um if if it was only your mom and mine to begin with, it might just be yours.
SPEAKER_02:We lost mine. As we both know, it was never our wives.
SPEAKER_00:This is 100% true. Our wives keep us humble and remind us. No one ever listens to you. But no, it has been a long time since we've we've recorded. Uh, some of that is uh because we've been busy, some of that has been because we've been sick, some of that has been because uh Malcolm uh it has been preparing for this this big day, this monumental day. Yes, of his book release. So he's been on lots of other podcasts. So he's been podcasting all the time. Uh me on the other hand, I've just been listening to the podcast. It's been great. But uh in the last, let's say, since December, Malcolm, uh, what's been going on in your life? Anything new? Anything I mean, besides this giant, you know, mountain.
SPEAKER_01:You're in book mode. I'm in book mode, man. I'm just telling people about the book, spreading the spreading the good news of the anti-greed gospel. That's what's that's what's going on, man. Yes. It's been a joy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, for me, let's see. I think also some of the reasons I I've been like, all right, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna get excited. Uh, one thing I think one of the reasons that we have not recorded a bunch is one, um I've I'm just feeling my age, man. I I think I'm getting old. And I've gotten injured so much in 2025. It's it's like, what is happening to me? I really injured my shoulder. Uh, I've been doing um PT physical therapy for that for a while now. Uh, I just last week really injured my calf muscle. Ugh. It's all on the left side, so it's been great. I'm just like, all right, what's happening? So I just feel you know, old man uh problems here. Um but on a positive note, man, I am in loving our series uh through the book of Revelation. Oh, it's so good. So good. If you are, dear listener, uh we know we are we are worldwide outside of our our our two moms listening uh listening here. If you see if you were not in Waco, uh we are uh our church in Waco is going through the book of Revelation. And man, I I almost wanted to hijack the rest of this podcast uh this spring and just go deeper because there's only so much you can say in a sermon, but there is so many images to unpack and things to talk about with the book of Revelation. What a time to go through that book, Slim.
SPEAKER_03:Well, what makes you say that? What makes you say that?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I mean, I I just I say I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that we're looking at the Antichrist. We're definitely looking looking at an Antichrist. Oh, oh uh but uh you know, it's just it is what it is.
SPEAKER_01:It is what it is.
SPEAKER_00:Um I just did the rim shot for the sake of like lightning below because I would say honestly, I can make the excuse of old, I can make the excuse of sick and tired. I I'll be honest, I think some of my reluctance to do anything else, I think maybe it's just there has been a collective weightiness because of the sheer storm and hurricane that is this new administration. It's just a blitz, just blitz over and over and over again. And I know that they've said this is their plan to flood the zone, um, as uh Steve Bannon has has called it. And I if you're uh if you voted for Trump, if you voted for uh if you you c identify as Republican, this is this is not me going now Say it, Slim, do it. This is not me saying Slim. Democrats are the answer. Uh I think the book of Revelation and Look I can tell you what ain't the answer.
SPEAKER_02:Anyway, go ahead. Sorry.
SPEAKER_00:I think the Book of Revelation has has reminded me of how unbelievably bestial um empires are. It's true. And I I think what we have now seen uh on in the American throne um in someone to make it a throne, and we've had a president joking about long live the king. Quote unquote joking. It's made it's made me it's unmasked how throne imbecile uh the American Empire is. And yes, quote unquote joking. I think dude when I see when I see these jokes, this reminds me of when you see kind of people, and I'm not saying this is exactly right, but uh we do have a a president who has been um um uh accused and um proven uh to have have made and paid off. Um so he's a very very sexually promiscuous person. And he's uh also on tape saying just grab them by the right. So we have someone who's it just it makes me think of someone who's like, hey, I'm just gonna make it's just a joke, it's just a joke until it's a reality. And so I'm like, are they softening us for this? Um so man, we just went straight into it, Malcolm, because we just we haven't talked for so long about this.
SPEAKER_02:That's such a a long look man, I think about the I think about the proverb. I think about the proverb, uh Proverbs uh 26, 19. Um uh it's well it's it's it's 26, it's so it's it's it's Proverbs 26, I think it's 18, 18, and 19. And it says, if I'll just take a second to pull it up, it says, um, like a maniac shooting flaming arrows of death is one who deceives their neighbor and says, I was only joking. Read that again. Read that again. Uh, like a maniac shooting flaming arrows of death is one who deceives their neighbor and says, I was only joking. I'm just gonna leave that without comment.
SPEAKER_00:Uh that is just describing that what I think I've recently heard uh JD Vance saying, like, what is masculinity? Masculinity is is uh telling jokes. Um it's having the ability to to say it's just a joke. Um so that that that that proverb seems to uh seems to hit their wealth. Okay. Um but since we're on the topic of of our our favorite government, um man, we just because it's been it because it's been the hurricane, yeah, and uh we haven't talked about it at all. And the flood the zone like this context since I mean it we're in February, we're at the end of February, and so January and February have just been so much to and not to review because if you're you're like okay, it's now whenever you're listening to it, March, and you're going like I don't really want to go back then because probably a lot's happened since then. But I just there's just been some like important things that have happened since this this this new administration's come in. Um and I just uh I I I I have looking back on it, and I I we're not political commentators, but we do live in this, and we are we are we are we are citizens. Um my frustration is with the church baptizing what these political leaders are doing. It's one thing to say no, that's that's the political leader, but it's another to say like no this is right, just and true. Like this is the expression, like that this is God's savior to our we've been compromised, we've been compromised for a long time. So and so like I'll I'll tell you, I had a lot of qualms with with Biden, with with Kamala, with the making the most lethal military, like uh yes, but I didn't hear anyone baptizing it and saying, like, this is the Christian way. It is constantly being said, like this is the way. And so uh what where where do we start, Malcolm? Like just just yesterday we had President Trump uh retweeting or putting out this this Trump Gaza, which if you don't know it's it there's a song, there's a like then AI generated video um of Trump just taking what is this I mean it it describes kind of this you know this war-torn uh image of of Gaza, which it is because we've been sending uh we've been sending military bombs to go in.
SPEAKER_02:But America's gonna develop it and put up a giant golden statue of Trump. This shows you I grew up on Veggie Tales.
SPEAKER_00:My first thought was the buddy.
SPEAKER_02:Ooh, I love the bunny. I don't love my mom or my dad, just the bunny.
SPEAKER_00:The buddy, the buddy, oh um, but what that the buddy song was actually retelling was the story of Nebuchadnezzar. And before I even thought of the buddy and the the that song, I cannot stop thinking about Trump as a modern-day Nebuchadnezzar, as one who sees himself as like the the person he's gonna in I he 100% would create a statue like that. Yeah, whether he it happens or not. He just posted this video and be like as approval of this, because he said he wants to go into Gaza and make it the uh the Riviera of the Middle East. And everyone's like, What? You're gonna take people's land and how are you gonna are are you pushing people out? Is this is this modern day genocide?
SPEAKER_01:Like it Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00:Like and so I'm I I I I was like, it's the end of Nebuchadnezzar, is he ends up in this as like it says like he's got this almost like feathers, but almost like a wolf, um um kind of fur on him, and he's out in a field and he's lost his mind, is the end of Nebuchadnezzar's life. He and so it's in a way I've always talked about it, it's like he became a he became a werewolf uh is the end of Nebuchadnezzar after like this lust for so much power and so much uh authority corrupts you and doesn't just corrupt everything else around you, it corrupts you because no human being is is meant to have that much power. Nope. As the saying goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely, and yes, it corrupts everything, but including you. And so I'm just like, is this what's gonna happen? Is Trump gonna and are we seeing signs of him already losing his mind?
SPEAKER_02:Like well, you know, and he's also got the richest person in the entire world right next to him doing whatever he wants.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I don't understand how you have the richest person in the entire world with Elon Musk paired with someone who's like trying to run on being like this populist, like the the man of the people. Um like it's they're they don't seem to work together.
SPEAKER_02:Well, you look at his tax look, you look at his look at Trump's most recent tax policies, and it's going to raise taxes for everybody who's not who's not making 300k and above. Like that's what you you There's no k he doesn't he doesn't care about you. Insofar as there are people who make under$300,000 a year listening to this podcast. Uh he doesn't he doesn't care about you.
SPEAKER_00:And so there's there's this. There's the Trump guys that just yesterday. And then there's like maybe the most important thing that's coming out is how he's siding with Russia. Yeah, that's a hole. And and calling Zelensky a dictator. And so we are now on the side of Russia and China and North Korea.
SPEAKER_01:We're the baddies now. Like we're the baddies now.
SPEAKER_00:And so this is this is absolutely wild.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, okay, so I'm again look, look, man, and this part of part of it is because we've folks have gotten used to thinking about so there, I mean, there are some people for whom this is really surprising because you're used to thinking about the United States as the good guys. And uh, and one of the things this is I'm I'm not gonna I'm not gonna preach the sermon now, but Sunday I'm preaching Romans 13, or sorry, revelation, Revelation 13. And and uh paired with the apocalyptic literature of the of the Old Testament, specifically Daniel, um the scriptures frame states as apocalyptic beasts. Like that's what they that's what they are. Um when they they they they the way that they use the way that they use power, wealth, and propaganda is just like it's it's evil. But that's how they maintain, that's how they maintain themselves. It's one of the reasons why it's such a tragedy in 1 Samuel 8 when when the people ask for a king, because they because God's God's purpose for his people was that they was that they live according to an alternate logic, not the logic of the states around them. Um but uh and we think that because I mean it's it's so interesting. We think because of our Democratic Republic elements and stuff, that that makes us so awesome. Um, when we were also founded in uh profound exploitation of our of our of our neighbors and things like that, there's there's there's there's evil that lies at the root of the maintenance of all of our political power. Uh we're just used to, we're like I said, we're used to thinking about ourselves as the good guys. And so when when somebody just wants to nakedly uh kind of nakedly run into the arms of greed and ego, we're like, oh no, this is so different. I'm like, this is how these things work.
SPEAKER_00:It is, and yeah, but we want we want better for our world, we want better for our country, and so we want to fight against it. And so it's so shocking when people are hearing someone nakedly go after it and then go, no, that's okay. Um and so like and just you know, recent again, this is all just it's barrage. Um, just recently Trump had the um all the governors on this this video conference uh or this video or this call with all these governors in the room, and the the governor of Maine um he calls out by name and says, like, hey, you've not complied. Um, and she responds that we will we will comply with state and federal law. And Trump responds, we are yeah, we we are the law.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And that is so scary to think that like he whatever he says goes. I mean, that's like it's he's he wants to be a king. And then he even says, even quotes that the I don't know whether it was Napoleon or not, but that he who saves his country does not violate any law. Like if we want a king, we wouldn't we would be under uh King George.
SPEAKER_02:Like we well, and you know, ideally, you know, ideally our other branches of government would check, would check the executive branch, but that requires them to have uh them to have courage. And some of them do, and like we're we're seeing some we're seeing some pushback. especially in the last few uh in the last kind of week or so. Um but if they if they want things to be any different, they're gonna have to.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. I mean this is all like things we could be talking about. Like there's just so much the to catch up on because 2025 has been great. Oh yeah. Just this. We're just gonna call a new segment called 2025. Because we're not even gonna call it tweets anymore. This is just things are are rough. Do you remember do you remember way back in in in 2025 when JD Vance came out and said, you know, if had that tweet about if anyone comes to me and does not um or no no he he he comes out and he talks he he was talking about how it's it's it's the Christian way to love your family only. Oh yeah to love your family order of loves. Yeah his his disordered of loves um like that was that was way back in 2025. I mean that was so so long ago because so much has happened and it's like he's going against the Catholic church on this. Yeah the the respond to it is wild it's wild it's wild man but like Jesus is like no if anyone comes up to me he does and does not hate his father mother wife children brother sister even his own life such person cannot be my disciple be like like if you are a born again Christian you've been born again into into a a bigger family. True and so anyways there there's all of that. And then just just recently we'll kind of end here because I want to end somewhat hopeful um but not yet um your favorite uh commentator Megan Basham um she she's written uh a book called uh um was it for sale uh shepherds for sale for sale yeah yeah yeah uh we're not necessarily endorsing that book i i in fact i don't endorse it and uh think there's a lot wrong with it and i think there's a lot of mischaracterizations and and half truths and all of that look my book is my book is beating it out on uh on at least two or three categories right now so keep that so keep that so keep that happening yeah anyway go ahead love it's not the one I wanted that's fine that's it's okay it's okay yeah yeah yeah so in uh so so she she recently has called out uh Erwin Ints uh who is uh in the PCA and you know I'm okay if you start calling out the PCA there's things to call out within the PCA you like bringing up you like bringing up issues that require like 15 to 20 minute conversations as like at the end of there's so much to talk about so much to do that thing you do and so she she calls out Irwinins for having um for speaking at a black fellowship dinner um and uh basically says you know this is this is evidence of racism um and having racially segregated things like this and how this is in not in line with the truth of the gospel trying to use uh Paul's words to Peter um against against Erwin here and and we you know we we've had Erwin preach at Mosaic uh before um yeah he's a good dude yeah good dude um but malcolm what what what are your thoughts about this is it is is she right is is Erwin misled um in his his quest to uh to appeal to the masses during black history month this is my whole thing about white people talking about uh using the language using the language of it's like uh so in I have to be careful about what I what I'm about to say I'll talk about it in general anyway uh are people acting as though the evil of segregation was just kind of keeping people apart um when the evil of it is is domination and exploitation so so so when you ask the question so so so all this is saying and I I I talk I talk about this in the book why um so so so so historically black uh institutions congregations exist not because like they're oppressive institutions it's because they went to their white leadership so so so so for example in the church context you had black members of these churches who went to their white leadership and said hey our our worship is being actively restricted can we go do our can we go do our thing over there and and instead of repentance which is the way that that white leadership should have responded they were like oh yeah yeah yeah it's fine go over there and do your thing we might send you some money most likely won't but but go like go over there and do and do your and do your thing all this conversation about like reverse racism and all this kind of stuff nobody is creating any institutions to kill and exploit white people yeah I'm just I'm just let's let's just say that yeah um and when the and and and and and yes like yes I want us to be able to build a world where everybody you know where everybody is uh where everybody's affirmed feels welcome all those all those kinds of things um but but you but you equating somebody being mean to you to Jim Crow is a is is is not only a is not only a cheapening of Jim Crow but it also signifies what I think has been a deeply atrophied moral moral and ethical imagination.
SPEAKER_02:And so um and it's also the fact that like you got all these people who are not part of this community getting bent out of shape getting bent out of shape about it um when there's no in when there's no indication that it was that's problematic for the for the community in question that it's meant to support a particular community that needs that kind of support. Yeah. I don't have any problem with that.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah yeah the anyway that's a the outrage 15 minute conversation but the outrage over something you're like given the the church history like you never spoke on this before you never lamented that the white that the white church did not respond to the the black church saying hey we've been or we are getting uh it's kind of like going back into Corinthians where you had the people saying hey we're not getting the food the bread and the wine because the rich are getting drunk and eating all the bread and they're like no and so Paul directs and says no you like you need to eat and drink you with with conviction of we are one body we're gonna eat together so that everyone can be a part of this. It's also like Acts 6 when you're the the Hellenistic Jews the Greek speaking Jews were being overlooked and then they appoint all of these these deacons uh to to go meet the widows and their their Greek speaking was like so it's like let's actually respond in kind with um the the needs in front of us here and not judge the group who's have saying like no this is actually good for us in the because of the injustice that we've had. So yeah we we could do a whole episode on this and maybe we will um it's just I I'm like man there's just so much to catch up on. But here's here's one thing I want to end on positively. Okay. Um so Megan Basham disagree with her on pretty much everything. Um she is still not my enemy she might be an opponent but she's not our enemy and so I was really appreciative. I saw David French tweet out and so not terrible tweets but a beautiful tweet because Megan came out and um earlier this year uh and and revealed that uh she'd been diagnosed with stage three advanced um cancer um and she's been a high a big critic of David French um big critic and he just sees that and he responds I'm so very sorry to hear this this makes my heart hurt may God grant you the strength and patience and resolve to meet each day and may God heal you of that cursed disease. And I was just like oh thank you Lord like I want to see more of that response of like we are not enemies here. Uh it is sin, death and the devil it's it's cancer. We're going to be disagreed on these things because I don't agree with her on a lot um but not not enemies. And so I just I I was appreciative of that. So if if you want us to talk more about some of those issues we've talked about please send us a question there's that send us a question button say hey can you guys talk more about this or can you go deeper into that um also as we've always said you know give us a a a like a rating a review that that helps others find the podcast um all of that is really helpful as we we look look out of where we're gonna go uh in 2025 all right malcolm the time has finally come yeah I know you've never done a podcast on your book yep um I've done a lot of them and you can all you can all google them and there are plenty there are plenty of things plenty of times with me answering the same questions over and over again uh in many in many contexts but right now I want to talk to Slim about what he what he thought about it this is about this is about you Slim you don't have to ask me the normal questions yeah no I don't want to ask the normal questions no you gotta I I expect something different I expect something different from my co-pastor who's been with me as I've been preaching this material for years. Dude this is because I know you um and I love you I when I read this I feel like not only am I hearing your voice as I've told other people like I just feel like you're speaking right next to me and um but when I read this I hear not just your voice not just your argument I hear your heart um and so like I I'm I'm just so happy for you to have this thing out here. I appreciate that man it is it is such such a gift and so if you have yet to get it we'll make sure we put the link in the show notes please go go get this book by five um it is it's so so it's so so good and and I I've my my my thought after reading it first was like well duh um I don't know how you argue with you um but maybe that's because I've you know I've drunk the Kool-Aid uh but here I'm gonna argue with you for for a good conversation. Oh boy. So now I've said all the positive things. Now here's all the things I hate about it. Great um really excited for that no not at all not at all um all right one of the things that you you begin the book with is this Ida B uh Wells quote who um I don't know she seems like a pretty important person. You like her?
SPEAKER_01:I like her a lot.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah yeah you you you quote her that the white man's dollar is his God the appeal to the white man's pocket has ever been more effectual than all the appeals ever made to his conscience.
SPEAKER_02:Goodness man why do you begin here that's like the second paragraph of the book.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah I mean you basically like punch us in the face to start the book yeah you've not warmed us up to this no there's no warm up on my joke. I'm just like it's so there's there's no like easing into that nope why do you what why'd you begin then?
SPEAKER_02:Jump right into it. Because like well because one of the things I also want to frame in the book is that like the the stakes of our the stakes of our history and battle with with race and racism are way too high for me to play games with it. And so like I the way I summarize the way I summarize the work now is that what I what I want to reveal to folks is that America's history with race and racism is really just a proxy battle of a cosmic war. And that cosmic war is between God and mammon and so uh so I want to hit you with that early and I don't want to let up throughout the entire throughout the entire book. So like there like there are some people who can who can like read through this I think relatively quickly and then there are other people for whom it's going to take some more time because I I am just it's I want it to be just kind of liver shot after liver shot. But but then but then I also want there to be I also want there to be a deep and substantive hope that comes out of it too. Yeah um because I think about it like the way I think about now the book of Revelation where you know John is John is writing this to churches under Roman under Roman persecution and like and that's really bad and scary. And then Christ essentially reveals to him hey actually it's even scarier than it appears. But we're actually talking about multi-headed beasts with horns and all this stuff killing the people of God which is even scarier. But in addition to that you've got it you've got to be willing to to take it up another level and realize that and and and realize that above that above all of this God God and the Lamb are on the are on the throne and and and we serve a God who has who has promised to enact real comprehensive justice in the world. And we can't you can't go day to day in this battle against the against the powers and principalities and maintain hope without that vision. And so I want to I want to not only draw the picture of the world as much darker than we would prefer to but I also want to frame the light the light of the gospel in a way that is much brighter than we're than we're used to.
SPEAKER_00:So well you've just even like the book you've said so much in a short amount of time here that I'm like it's like the book where I've going I've got five questions based off what you just said. All right so uh get let's get terminology out out of the way um let's go you why the love of money is the root of racism um is the the subtitle here and how the church can create a new way forward. How is let's see racism racism and race how would you define those I know you do do define them in the book but how would you define them?
SPEAKER_01:So so when I talk about race, I want to be clear that what I'm talking about is what is what um is what Adolf Reed calls an an ideology of of of ascriptive difference.
SPEAKER_02:And what these what these kinds of categories do, what these kinds of ideologies do and this is a and this is a quote from Reed that it that it helps to stabilize a social order by legitimizing its hierarchies of wealth power and privilege including its social division of labor as the natural order of things. So the purpose the purpose of race as a category is to do those things and part of what the part of what the what I do in the book is I narrate how like that is a category that is created specifically to justify capitalist exploitation. That's where race historically comes from um so race so racism and this is the and this is the the the epigraph of of the first of the first chapter because like I said it's just I just want to at the very beginning I just want to get you into what we're gonna talk about. So I'll so Oliver Cox in his book Cast, Class and Race says uh what is what is and he's talking about racism what is what is racism? It's the phenomenon of the capitalist exploitation of peoples and its complementary social attitude that is that that that ex that exploiting people also also requires a system of thought that allows you to tell you that these are people that I should be able to exploit and that's the role and that's essentially the role that race that's the role that race plays.
SPEAKER_00:So is that like um if we can dehumanize someone or a a group of people it it makes it more palatable. So like when we you say like no those people are um they're from uh trash hole countries um they're the the they're subhuman it allows us then to treat them as subhuman.
SPEAKER_02:Yep. And so I frame this as what I call the demonic cycle of self-interest. So it begins in our desire to exploit and dominate each other. That is just to say I like money and I like power. Generally for me to get money and power though it it it often requires me to put somebody in a position that they don't like to be in. And so that's the exploitation and domination part. But the thing about me putting somebody in that kind of position is that they don't like to be there. So they're going to try to not be in that position. And so if I'm going to keep them in that position, it's generally going to require violence. So exploitation leads to violence that is that's required to enforce that exploitation. But because most of us have consciences, we we we don't want to wake up in the morning and think I'm really excited for a day of exploiting dominating and killing my neighbor. So we create these narratives to tell ourselves that that's not what we're doing to each other. And and those things are lies. One of those lies is the category of race but it creates this cycle of exploitation violence and lies exploitation violence and lies exploitation violence and lies. And so the argument of the book is that like that's that's where race is situated. The history of race and race and especially of racial violence is just that cycle over and over again. And so if we're supposed to and so if we as the body of Christ are seeking to resist that cycle we've got to resist each point each point of it. And and that and that's what leads to the three uh points of application that I narrate in the latter half of the book.
SPEAKER_00:So this is I'm guessing this is going to be either um enlightening for many or controversial. Because when we think of race and racism, uh we usually just think of you know skin tone skin um we think of of um the the maybe even maybe maybe we'll go into our a little bit of our country's history but we think this is where I think the the movement that was seems like fully dead now the racial reconciliation movement was was let's let's just educate our people to say no no we are we are all creating the Imago Day. Yep. And why is that not enough to get to the root of racism as you say it's the love of money.
SPEAKER_02:And I know we're yeah we'll get further into that but well because the evil so if the if the issue was ignorance then it would be solved by education. And if the issue was hate just in the sense of ill feeling um then it could be solved with just us feeling differently about each other. Similarly also because because because and and uh especially especially recently and especially since the since the civil rights movement the language of the systemic is is is is in the is in the water so people can see systemic racism and the ways in which it's baked into law and and and policy and things and things like that. And and so people can get the idea okay well like if we just deal with the policies then we'll deal with this thing. And I I want to say that it is actually even worse than that. Because because race did not begin in policy it began in greed. It began because there were people who wanted who wanted particular resources wanted to be able to get them cheaply and so and and so they and so they looked for really cheap sources of labor in order to do those things and the category of race allowed them to tell themselves well these are these are people who I can who who I can exploit until we deal with until we deal with that with that route we won't we won't actually deal with the we we won't actually deal with the monster and that and and and and to then encounter Jesus in Matthew 624 Who says that we can't serve two masters, will either love one and hate the other, or be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and like and Jesus could have chosen any of our many idols in that second spot. We're from reformed backgrounds. It could have been pride. He could have said like God and self or something like that.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But he says God and mammon, the Aramaic word for money or riches. What that indicates to me, um, and what and what I think I I end up playing this out of the book, but it's it's happened in the afterlife of the book where I've where part of it is just me asking myself, like, how how right is Jesus? Like, if I look through even the history of humanity, that's true. That there's a constant, that that there's this, that there's this constant battle between the between essentially the Lord and just personal gain. Um, and it's gain, it's the it's the it's the seeking of of money, of power, and of influence, all things that we can be greedy for. Um, like those are like that's the root, in many ways, the root issue is that the first the first sin, people say that it's pride. I think the first sin is greed. I think it's it's it's it's Adam and Eve reaching out for something that is not theirs, that's not theirs to have, which is fundamentally what greed is. It's that it's that God has told you that you need these particular things and He's provided those things for you, and it's and it is and it is your claim. Yeah, but like there's still more that I could that that that I should probably have. Like that's what that's what greed is, and that and and that is and that is what I think is actually our primal, it's actually our primal issue. Um, but the history of race and racism is like I said, just a proxy battle of that, of that war. Because whether you whether you look at slavery, whether you look at lynching, whether you look at convict leasing or all these things, when you ask enough questions, you find out people continue these systems because they have money that they want to make. And the narratives about race and all this kind of stuff, they end up being smoke screens. They're just smoke screens because I want to make a lot of money. And if I've already made that money, I want to keep that money. Um, like that's in in in in relatively simple terms. That's what it, that's what it essentially comes down to basically every time.
SPEAKER_00:And so is have you found sharing this people are more receptive to it or less because of this? Because I think hearing that racism is about ignorance and hate um is gross, um what it is.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um, and so it's nice to be able to And it's easier to deal it's it's easier to deal with that way.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you put that oh those people over there. But by making it about greed, yeah, it now it involves more of us because you can see your greedy tendency, as you said, it may be the the first sin and and the the root of all of these sins, as you you talk about here having it touches on seven of the ten commandments. Yeah. Um so have you found people more receptive to it this way of seeing it, or they've or have you felt there's like a a pushback to that? Because I would imagine this feels like a a a new way of understanding this.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, people don't like people don't really love my book in the sense that like like they like they they do like they say that like I mean people people say that they love it in the sense that they like you know it's like it's it's a really it's a really compelling picture, but it's not this like really deeply enjoyable experience. And and I wrote it because I I mean one of the reasons why I why I wrote it, and I I should warn people that like after you read it, you're without excuse. Like that, like, like, like that's one of the intent, like that's kind of one of the intentions of the book is I want to draw, like I want to remind us of the world in which we actually live, yeah, but also remind us that like this actually does require something of all of us. And the thing about a lot of our conversations about race and racism is that uh we feel like we can get to a point where we where we got it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So if ignorance is the issue, well, like, okay, well, I'm continually engaging in education. So like, got it. Just gonna keep doing that. Or or or or if it's a or if it's a hate thing, it's like, well, I got I got friends and networks and stuff. And so got it. And Mike, and and and I want us to be reminded of the fact that evil, evil is much more insidious than that. Um, and also like the powers and principalities are actively relentless. So if there is ever a point at which we think that there is this massive evil that we've dealt with, that ought to, that ought to set off some alarm bells. Because until Jesus comes back, Satan's not gonna stop. Like that's he's already been defeated. And so, and so he, so, so, so, so, in the, in the mindset of our spiritual enemies, they're like, we got a limited amount of time. We got to do as much damage as we can as quickly as we can. And as the people of God, we the our our temptation is going to be to get tired or to get complacent. And and and one of the risks of us framing our issues as smaller than they are is that it makes it much easier, it makes it much easier to get complacent. Now, if we if we frame them as too large, it's it's gonna be very easy for us to get if we frame it as too as too large, without, without a, without a parallel articulation of the resources that Christ has given us, then we're gonna get, then we're gonna get tired because because the because the issues are massive. Yeah. This is this is why, this is why King, W.B. Du Bois, and others, as they fought against racism for years, it's why they met up with these bouts of depression and disillusionment. Because, because the issues are so big. Um, and you're gonna hit obstacle after obstacle after obstacle. You need stamina to be able to do this. Um, but it's one of the reasons why I press that this is a book for the people of God, because I'm like, we have we have an endless well to draw from. We have to like actively be drawing from that well because you need to know that that's that you actually need it to be able to fight, to be able to fight the battle that we're actually embroiled in.
SPEAKER_00:Do you see a correlation between this way of understanding the history of race with some of the stuff? I think you even quoted Derek Bell and some of the uh critical race theory. And I know that's a whole other can of understanding what that is.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, but do you see that as there's uh there's a there's some connectivity there? Yeah. And maybe some of the reason people don't want to see it this way because it it has a it it's a darkening view of our of our our heart. Like I was saying, like, man, this is a really dark way of seeing the world and a dark way of seeing our history. And I don't want to see that I want to have have a more positive light of our history. Especially progressives.
SPEAKER_02:What do you mean by that? Well, I mean like there's there's there you you there people want to have the uh you want to have the the assumption that if you just get all the good people together, you can you can you can kind of usher in justice in the world. Yeah. Um, or would you have these kind of narratives of progress? Um and this is actually not just like it's not just a progressive thing. Like this is this is also the way that, especially in this country, we like to narrate American history, just kind of as Americans. We're like our our ideals are awesome, and we're and like as time is going on, we're just living more into our ideals. This is what our most what some some of our most recent um executive orders in talking about what they want to press in K through 12 education, there's a description of a of a patriotic education, and elements of that are that that that America has basically just been living better into its ideals over the course of its history. Like that's not just a politically progressive thing. Like it's a it's also just an American thing. You really want to be the hero of your own story. Um and um and so uh, but it also lies under the assumption that, okay, well, you know, if we just and this is for progressives and conservatives, if we just if we just were able to get in power, we would be able to set everything, set everything right. Ooh.
SPEAKER_00:Um You made me make some other connections here. Um I know whenever um growing up you hear the story of David and Goliath, and you have David taking down Goliath with uh the slingshot, or however you describe what he he slung at Goliath. And growing up, the Sunday school lesson was now who are your giants that you need to slay? And there was a there was a uh a Christian movie that came there, like uh uh was it uh defending uh defeating the giants? Yeah, I'm not I I remember the name, but I'm sorry about something along those lines, and you guys can write in and tell us what the name of the movie was. Um But it was it's kind of that argument. And then I remember one for the first time kind of hearing that story and going, Maybe we don't identify ourselves as David in the in in the story as being the the little one who is is is is on God's side and you know there's the enemies out there. Like maybe we're Goliath. And no one ever wants to see themselves as that. As you just said, like you you you narrate, we we want to narrate stories where we're the heroes of the story. We do that even just like you tell like someone how your day was. Well, here's what I did, and you kind of and and this person cut me off, not that I like cut them off first or whatever. Like you narrate yourself as the hero of the story, and we want that to be true in reading the scriptures, and we want that to be true in our lives. There's also this this fantastic movie, um, Shudder Island. Um, it's a great movie. Leonardo DiCaprio. Great movie. And the whole movie to give it away, it's been around for a while, so you know if you don't you know skip ahead five you know two minutes on this podcast, but the whole the whole movie is he he has created this whole world because he could not this whole lie because he could not deal with the fact that his wife had killed his kids. Yeah, like and so and he he at one point has to make the decision like do I continue on knowing this ugly truth or do I believe the lie to be able to like live with myself and live with this world that I now I'm I'm now in?
SPEAKER_02:And can I add a quick a quick bonus? Because you mentioned David and Goliath, and I was reminded of a detail of that story that I have uh largely ignored for basically my entire knowledge of that story.
SPEAKER_00:Go for it.
SPEAKER_02:Which is why David ended up killing Goliath uh because in first because in 1 Samuel 17, uh he becomes aware of what will happen to the person who kills Goliath. Do you see now the Israelites had been saying this is this is this is 1 Samuel 17, 25. Now the Israelites had been saying, Do you see how this man keeps coming out? He comes out to defy Israel. The king will give great wealth to the man who kills him. He will also give him his daughter in marriage and will exempt his family from taxes in Israel. David asked the men standing near him, What will be done for the man who kills this Philistine and removes this disgrace from Israel? Who is who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defy the armies of the living God? They they repeated to him what they had been saying and told him, This is what will be done for the man who kills him. So, like, money is a part of self-interest. Money and self-interest are a part of even David Killing Collect.
SPEAKER_00:Like, it like it it I've not fully invented that yet. I'm gonna go into it though. That's interesting.
SPEAKER_02:Like, it isn't it? Isn't it if like you ask these questions? It is all throughout, it's all throughout the Bible, but it's also all throughout history. It is one of the primary things that drives human action. It just is.
SPEAKER_00:Even David and Goliath, like I said, it's I don't like to think of ourselves as that as that uh negative. It's deep, man. It's deep. I think human has spirit has more potential in it. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's dark out here. Uh it's why we need the grace and mercy of the Lord every single day of our lives.
SPEAKER_00:Oh man. Oh man. Um sorry, I cut you off though. You were No, I think I think it was the perfect analogy of this because I want to think even better of David. Um Christ figure in the world.
SPEAKER_03:So now I'm rethinking everything in my life. Gotta read the whole story.
SPEAKER_00:In context, context is key. Give me something positive. All right. Throughout the history of the world, we've seen Christianity um both get in in bed with greed um and sometimes challenge it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Can you give me an example of one of each? Um, and the ways that it it's uh maybe challenged systems of greed or reinforced the systems of greed, um, stood against it, or when it's failed to stand against it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of there are a lot of stories of compromise. Uh uh Jamar's got a whole book on it. Uh but like, but we have had fewer, we've had fewer examples of the church recognizing that greed is the issue and figuring out what it means to organize against it. There were a there were a number of examples in the early, there were a number of examples in the early, in the early church. Yeah. Um, and there are a number of figures that I draw attention to in the book who press constantly over and over again, how dangerous it is. And this is why the first quote in the book, um, the epigraph at the very beginning of the book is from John Chrysostom. And it's this quote that it's one of my favorite quotes. So I'll just, I just want to say it real quick.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Uh perhaps one of you will say, Every day you talk about covetousness. Would that I could speak about it every night, too? Would that would that I could do so following you about in the marketplace and at your table? Would that both wives and friends and children and domestics and tillers of the soil and neighbors and the very pavement and walls could ever shout forth this word, for this malady hath seized upon all the world and occupies the souls of all. And great is is the tyranny of mammon. Like that that message is something that I mean, Chrysostom preached it often. Babo Cesaria preached it often. There were others who preach it often. And and whenever I talk to groups of Christians now about the book, one of the questions I like to ask is how often do you hear preaching about greed? And there have been numerous people who cannot remember the last time they heard a sermon about greed. That's an issue. That indicates that essentially the demon mammon has placed a veil over, like has placed such a thick veil over our eyes that we have failed. I mean, we failed to really substantively follow Christ in the ways that He's called us to live. And one of the fundamental ways in which he's called us to live is to think about, is to think about our resources in a different way, but not just think about our resources in a different way, but actually invest in the redistribution of our resources in a particular, in a particular way. But no, no one none of us want to think that because we have, because we have bought into the assumptions of neoliberal capitalism that we are fundamentally competitive individuals, that it is perfectly okay for us to desire to get rich, even though Paul says explicitly in 1 Timothy 6 that those who desire to get rich fall into a trap and a snare, all those kinds of things. We've fallen into the trap that we can think that everything can just be commodified and everything becomes a profit center. All of those assumptions have dug so deep into our psyche that when we hear Jesus' words about us sharing, we're just like, that doesn't make any sense. That's not practical. It's what Jesus told us to do. We ought to figure out how to do it.
SPEAKER_00:Now, I can hear, I can hear, um, I can hear a detractor. Malcolm. Yes. I can hear a detractor. Yes. And I can hear myself going. But wealth really isn't the problem though. It's how you use the wealth. How would you how would you respond to that?
SPEAKER_02:Uh let me let me just read from my from my book.
SPEAKER_00:Um He's gonna be using that line so much.
SPEAKER_01:If people would just read the book, then they would they would understand.
SPEAKER_02:Um, but okay, so this is so I I one of the most uncomfortable texts, I think, for a lot of American Christians is Jesus' conversation with the rich young ruler. And one of the ways, and so Jesus very clearly tells this man Um give to sell all that you possess, give it to the poor, come follow me. And starting even back with uh Clement of Alexandria. So here, I just want to read a little bit of this, just as an example, like something that is much more comfortable, I think, for us to hear. This is on page 148, at the bottom of page 148. In the early third century, Clement of Alexandria, one of the first well-known Christian theologians, interpreted this text that is the uh sell everything you have and give to the poor in a way most of us are comfortable with today. Jesus seems to be telling the rich young ruler to sell all his stuff, and we understand that Christ's words are not necessarily limited to this man, so we so we ask ourselves, is he talking to me? And here's how Clement answers this question sell all that you possess. What does this mean? It does not mean, as some superficially suppose, that he should throw away all that he owns and uh and abandon his property. That is, Clement is saying it doesn't mean exactly what Jesus said. Um rather come on, Clement. Rather come on rather, he is to banish those attitudes toward wealth that permeate his whole life, his desires, interests, and anxiety. These things become the the thorns choking the seed of a true life. There we go. And the end of chapter. It's not a it's not a great thing or desirable to be without any wealth unless it is because we're seeking eternal life.
SPEAKER_03:If it were, those who possess nothing, the destitute, the beggars seeking food, and the poor living in the streets would become the blessed and loved of God, as though Jesus might say elsewhere somewhere that blessed are the poor.
SPEAKER_02:Anyway, beside the point. Um beside the point. Um all of that, all of that's to say, like, that's a much more comfortable way for us to for us to think about it. But what's wrong with that? But but but but but Basel but Basel disagrees because because uh Jesus was very clearly telling him telling him to sell everything that he has, but one of the things that Basel presses is that like the problem, what this the issue with this the issue with this rich young man um was that he had too much. And that is a and this is and this is also the issue of the um of the rich fool in Luke 12, I believe, um, to who has all these barns and then and and and he's about to tear down his barns to build bigger ones so they can hold all of his stuff. And that same night, God comes to him is like, actually your life is going to be demanded of you tonight. Doesn't look like it was the best use of your resources, was it? Um so um, but but the but the point but the point that but the point that Basel is making is that look, if we if we are loving our neighbors as ourselves, then that also means that we are that we are advocating for our neighbors to have what we have. So I have this paragraph, this is in um uh so this is page 154. According to according to Basel, if we if we're loving our neighbors as ourselves, then we should have no more than our neighbors. Said another way, if I determine that I need something I have, I should ensure that all my neighbors also have that thing. Is food a need? I mean, I should I also I must make sure my neighbor, brother, and sister have it. Is is clothing a need? I must make sure my neighbor, brother, and sister have it. Premium healthcare, high quality housing, living wage, all necessities. Through it through an exegesis of Jesus of Jesus' words to the young ruler, Basel calls us to think more creatively than neoliberal capitalism would like us to. An economy that grows when we consume will obviously just encourage us to continue to consume. And yet we've been called to bear witness to a different kind of economy, one in which we hear Christ's Words and do what he says rather than over-spiritualize them. One of the primary issues, I think, with with with these with these conversations, especially about the rich young ruler, is that we are really tempted to over-spiritualize very material things that Christ has called us to do. And so I want to remind us, just as race is not a conversation about thought, it's a conversation about material, material exploitation. Similarly, I will like I want when I want all those spaces where we're tempted to over-spiritualize stuff. I want us to I want us to be reminded that love that is obedience to cr that is obedience to Christ, love is a material relation with our neighbor.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um and so um and that's gonna actually shape, like that's gonna shape our priorities, it's gonna shape our tastes. All those all those things happen when our material habits change.
SPEAKER_00:That's good. That's good. You've mentioned this already, um, the the demonic cycle of self-interest. Uh and that's a theme that that runs all throughout the book.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um and you you um lay out the the original example, or at least the example that w as it pertains to race in America, yeah, of of the the Portuguese um who wanted to exploit some markets.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so you you I've heard you say this before about when they they came to Africa, they were not saying here didn't get involved because they were racist, they get involved because they had markets, they had to expand. And so they they they they begin with exploitation. So it begins it begins there with greed, um, as at the the root of the book here, the why the love of money is the root of racism. So it begins in greed, yeah, and then it goes to violence, yep. And so it's exploiting them, bringing them into the transatlantic slave slave trade. Um it comes to America and you have you have more greed, more violence taking land. Um but then there is the the lie to say we we have to because we can't morally feel right sleeping at night, knowing what we are doing to other human beings, and so we need to lie to ourselves and say these are not human beings. Yep. Um and so then it's that that cycle, and so it goes over and over and over again, which is a a powerful image. I think I think if you you walk away from this book, that that is gonna be there, and you're gonna see it everywhere. I just talked to someone earlier today, they're like, I'm seeing that cycle everywhere. Yep. Um where would you say you see that today? Is there an example of a modern example of you see some violence that that um is being justified by a lie, but it's at the root of it is greed.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, and you know, I want to say that this is not a and I'm I'm I said I'm I'm about to preach Revelation 13. This is not just a race thing. As time has gone on, I'm I'm deeply convinced that that's just the cycle of of evil. It's really interesting that the primary things that God tells his people that a king is gonna do in 1 Samuel 8, the categories are categories of exploitation and violence. Like it's he's gonna tax you heavily, he's gonna, and he's gonna employ you in a war machine, and he's going to um uh uh and he's gonna and he's like he's gonna reward the people who are loyal to him, and then anybody who anybody who steps out of line, he's gonna treat them in a particular way. Like that, like that logic of exploitation, violence, and propaganda is like that's that's just necessary to just the way that evil, just kind of the way that evil works. Um, and so I mean, you know, it's it's it's in many ways uh kind of naked in in what's going on in the federal government right now. I mean, under the under the guise of, you know, under the guise of of of efficiency and stuff like that, it's really just people lining, kind of lining their own pockets um and just doing so, like I said, nakedly. I mean, in the it's it's it's it's I think it's important that in the Trump Gaza video, like it's a it's a statue of gold because it's about opulence. Like it's about it's about a cu it's about accumulation. Um it's about accumulation for the sake of for the sake of luxury. Forget the people who who are suffering. It's one of the reasons why even the the tax plan looks the looks looks looks the way that it does. It's because it's it's it's how can I accumulate more and more for myself. Um and that is that's what our that's like I said, that's what our economy feeds. Like we are constantly, even just like on social media, whether it's Instagram or whatever, it doesn't take me long to scroll to see somebody telling me how I can make more money. And it gets a hole, it gets millions of views because that's what people want. People want to make more money. More money. And it's and and and I just I want the people of God to think about what it might look like to have a community of people where there is no desire to get rich. Where there literally is a, I'm gonna seek the kingdom of God and his righteousness. The Lord will provide for me what I need. And any act, and if the Lord sees fit to bless me with more than I need, then I'm gonna think creatively about ways that I can extend that excess to the people who do have need. Like that's what's so that's what the people of God are supposed to be marked by. I don't want any Christian to desire to get rich. Yeah. Because that's what Paul says. And like, and that is that is apparently profoundly countercultural because we have we because we've built up all these edifices of like reasons why I can I can feed my own desire to get rich. I want to get rich so that I can help more people. You're you know, you don't. That's not the fundamental reason why you want to get rich. You want to get rich just because you want to get rich. And you and and and we like to think that if we had an abundance of resources that we would use it, that we would use it to help people. But that's exactly what Mammon wants us to think. Mammon wants us deeper and deeper into its clutches, um, because it can blind us to the ways in which uh it can blind us to the ways that our even even our accumulation comes at other people's expense. So as one ex one very short example, I want to talk about uh folks who want to get rich off of off of real estate, which is something that also Isaiah speaks against uh explicitly. And I got a I got a line in the book where I slide that in, and there's some and there are there and there and there are some people who who like noticed it. They're like, oh, uh wasn't expected, unexpected that. But yeah, it's in it's in there. Um but give it to every realtor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But to but to think about like housing is not housing is not just a profit center just for you to just enrich yourself. Housing is something that people need to actually live. When I when when I when I narrate kind of the three points of resistance to this cycle, um that uh that we're communities committed to um deep economic solidarity, uh creative anti-violence, and uh prophetic truth telling. With the economic solidarity point, one of the things I want to press is that like churches ought to, like, churches ought to be invested in the elimination of hunger and housing issues in their in their midst. Like those are two very, I mean, they're not easy, but they're very practical, practical investments for each of our communities to make because those are things that people need. And we ought to be seeking to meet the needs, yeah, the material needs of our of our of our brothers and sisters. Like that's that's what love actually looks like. So I e so even as we think about evangelism, like part part of it is like we like we gotta actually love, we gotta actually love people. Um, and part of loving them is is seeking that they have the things that they need to be able to survive. Going back um to probably kind of answered your question.
SPEAKER_00:No, that's good. That's good. That was real wondering where that cycle is is being seen, and I think that's that's an obvious example. Um going back to the violence arm of this, and so you have you have the greed, and then you have violence in our country's history. Um, this is where you got your or did your dissertation um on the violence and specifically uh around lynchings. And you you go through and explain a few of these here. Um the Waco horror, uh, the story of Jesse Washington, you you narrate. Um if you've never read that, go check out the Waco Horror Um and you'll get it there, or buy his book. Um and he narrates it narrates it here as well. Um, and it's just horrif horrifying um examples. And I remember when you were going through your dissertation, going, like, dude, how are you uh how are you staying hopeful in the midst of this? And you know, like uh that's not my not that's not my question right here. Um but also I I had not uh until reading your book uh hearing you the own personal uh element that you put in here uh with your great-great-grandfather.
SPEAKER_04:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um and just hearing that and kind of the reason to to move out of the south. Um, but you you you say in here um that lynching ended uh on page 53, lynching ended because it became bad for business.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And you know, it's lines like this that just are so like jolting because you're just like, gosh, I don't want that to be true. I don't want that to be true. But if it is, how then do we persuade people against violence if it's not bad for business? Like, do we try to appeal to their self-interest and greed? Because we're like, hey, that's not all they care about. So because that's what's gonna do it. It was it was bad for business, so that ended lynching. So when we see violence, how then do we try to to push against it? Is it to appeal to their self-interest and greed?
SPEAKER_02:Or is there something more? Well, so and that and that's the other thing, like that can be effective. Um like if the goal is freezing fire with fire. Yeah, but that's it, but that's exactly that's a that's exactly what it is. So this is why my favorite, my favorite text on nonviolence is the is is the is the um quote that I put at the epigraph of of chapter six, which is that um it's it's from Antonio Gonzalez, and he says, Christian nonviolence is not based on an ethic of respect for life or on the tactical superiority of nonviolence, but on the determination to confront evil at its very root. So I'm not nonviolent just because I think that everybody should live. I'm also not nonviolent because nonviolence works. I'm nonviolent because I want to confront because because because I see where evil actually is, and I want to aim at that. That is a different way of approaching these things because it is also a way that does not care as much about uh general effectiveness, basically. Yeah. It it cares more about my brother or sister is like my brother, sister, or neighbor is suffering. I want, I want to seek to I want to seek to end their suffering. And and what that's probably going to require of me is me walking alongside them. Um it also means that whenever I when it whenever I whenever we have the pleasure of some kind of political victory on behalf of the poor and the needy, we have to understand that they are fleeting and temporary. I think about just what's happened over the like in a month, when we think about what this administration has done, in a month, it's reminded people how fragile these systems are. Like yes, people are fighting, like yes, people are fighting back and stuff like that. But but the but but there has been a uh there's a lot of fear in the system and people who have lost their livelihoods and all that stuff. Like real people have been deeply affected, and it hasn't taken that much time because because the because the other thing, and Lisa, this is a this is a progressive issue, like people can get comfortable in I mean, just people get comfortable in in in in um in their in their luxuries, where you where you think, well, look, we do we did all of this, we did all this fighting for these rights, now we got them. Now we can just move on. I was like, I you need to understand the powers and principalities are not going to stop. So it's why, it's why we do the I I want the people of God to continually be vigilant because, like I said, they're not they're not gonna stop.
SPEAKER_00:Because we're fighting demons. That's what we're fighting, man. And for that, we need what weapon, Malcolm?
SPEAKER_02:We need the Holy Spirit. We need to be reminded every single day. Every single week. I want a real, I want a weapon. I know, I know. We need to be reminded every single day that everything that we enjoy, everything, is a gift of the grace of God. And that we need the grace and mercy of our Savior to make it through every single day of our lives. And like we just get to the point where we look at the stuff that we have and we're like, I'm good. I got like I look look at what I've done for myself. Great. I'm going right on that. Every day is a day of deep dependence on the Lord. And that, and the, and one of the and and one of the primary reasons why we don't believe that is because of our economy. Yeah. It's because our economy tells us I'm in this position because I worked for it and I earned it. And this is, and and and and and it's interesting because it's interesting because like theologically, Protestants should have an issue with that. But but that but but but but there's been this, like I said, this this disjunction between the theologians the theological and the material, or in this case, theology and economy, when when when when when when one of the primary ways that our theology ought to play itself out is in our economics, in the way that we think about our actual material resources. But but but but but what Mammon has effectively done for many of us is severed that connection. Um and I want to re I want to reconnect. I want to reconnect those things in this book.
SPEAKER_00:Uh one thing that you uh example that you you bring in and uh for uh a whole chapter um in is lessons of despair. Um and from one uh one particular person, uh Francis Grimke, uh who um from uh past life is um being championed uh in as the the the black Presbyterian.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um and recently there's uh the Grimke Seminary. Um and so there's a lot and he's in your research a ton. Um and so there's a lot to to love about him. But you you you describe him as a cautionary tale um in resisting racial violence. Why do you why do you describe it that way?
SPEAKER_02:And it's really interesting how some white Christians view some prominent black Christians in particular stages of their lives. So I think people love Grimke at a particular age, but not where he is, where but not where he ends up when he dies. Similarly, Martin Luther King. I was gonna say M L K similarly, Martin Luther King. You love like 1963 Martin Luther King, but don't listen to 1967, 1968 Martin Luther King.
SPEAKER_00:Or even just portions from his portions right, or even just pieces of it, right?
SPEAKER_02:So so for so for Grimke, like there's a there's a period in his life where in his lynching resistance, he's he he says that um you know education is the way to is the way to stop it. Yeah. But that's in 1899. In 1906, after the Atlanta race riots, um, he says that the only way to stop a mob is to shoot it to death or to or to dynamite it. Um he basically comes to the conclusion the only way that lynching is gonna stop is if some of these white folks die, basically.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um and that's but that's also where he ends his life, is that he's like the only way that this ends is if black people defend if black people defend themselves.
SPEAKER_00:And to give you, I mean, in in your chapter, you go into like his progression. Yeah, and so you can see, and also just you put the dates of the different lynchings though, yeah. So he is now experiencing this. Yeah. And so you can like you understand why he gets there. I get it. You I get it. It wears you down. And so I thought it wears you down. It was so so powerful because I mean I've I've heard you say this is where he ends. Yeah, but to to read the lynchings that are right prior to that, you're going like, Yeah. I mean, yeah. You're trying to lead your church and go, like, here's how we do it. Mm-hmm. Protect yourself.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So it makes a lot of sense. Makes a lot of sense. I was named after Malcolm X, like I say, like it makes a lot of sense.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um uh, but what Jesus calls us to is actually harder than that.
SPEAKER_03:Sometimes Jesus calls us to do hard stuff. He gives us, he gives us the resources to do them, but they're still hard stuff.
SPEAKER_00:And that's kind of like uh what I think was the beautiful line you had at the end of uh your uh, you know, so as as he now Malcolm's already said it, he's got you know the the cycle of self- self-interest, and so he one of the things that I know everyone seems to and I agree love about his book, uh Malcolm's book here, is he does diagnose the problem, but he gives he gives waves forward. So that the the second half of the book is how the church can create a new way forward. Um and so he has the the the cycle of self-interest. Um and so then the response to each of these is so if if one is going to be um greed, let's let's let's follow that with uh economic solidarity. If one is going to be violence, let's follow that with anti-violence. If one is going to be lies, let's follow that with truth telling. Um and you know, we can talk about the economic solidarity part part here. Um, you know, when when I first heard that of going like, okay, so if if it is all about greed, um, and so then the answer should be generosity, but you say economic solidarity. Um and real quickly, what why why why why that that word instead of generosity?
SPEAKER_02:Generosity can very easily turn into paternalism, where I can remain in the position of giver, you're in the position of receiver, we can we can go on with our lives, especially now. Uh when you think about when you think about philanthropy in the sense that a lot of people think about it, it's something that can also lead to significant. I mean, most of our most of our philanthropy is like tax deductible. So like I could, so like there's like there's also significant kind of benefit that I gain from from that. But also, you know, I can even I can even gain significant power in particular organizations because of how much money I give. So like, so all of that quote unquote generosity can also be done in self-interest. Um there are there are greedy, generous people. Um stop. And so uh uh so there's so there's so there's that. But but but I press solidarity because the image is of the incarnation, where Christ, who has all things, chose to become chose to become one of us in order to bring us up to where he is. Yeah. One of the there there's if there are ways in which I, as a millionaire or billionaire, can give in such a way that also makes sure that other people don't become millionaires and billionaires like me. And the whole and the whole purpose of Christ giving up what he gave up, what so that he might be able to share it with us. This is this was this was the this is one of the themes of one of my most recent sermons on Revelation 3, when Jesus says at the end of Revelation 3 in Revelation 3.21 that to the one who overcomes, I will give to them to sit with me on my throne, just as when I overcame, I sat with my father on his throne, which is to say that Christ desires, when I say that Christ desires to share everything with us, I extend that. Christ extends that even to the eschatological throne on which he and the father sit. That's insane. That's insane. So to act to then to apply that insanity, why do we why do we cling so tightly to this to these little things that we have that we refuse to share when we when we claim to serve a God? Who shares everything that he has with us? There are two things that we don't know. There are things, and this is another thing that I'm now saying more often. There are two things that we really don't want to do that are also really difficult things for children to do. We don't want to share, we don't want to wait. We want it all and we want it now. And we and that and and and two of the primary things that Christ tells that Christ constantly tells us to do is to share and to wait.
SPEAKER_00:So um I'm gonna follow in the footsteps of Jim Jones and get our church to share everything with that what you're calling us to? Yeah. Um we won't go I'm joking. We won't go around. No, no, no. Malcolm's reminding me, we got five, we got five minutes. Uh uh hard stop here. Um but no, so it's economic solidarity. Um it is the sharing. Um, I want to ask you this. I'll ask you this another time, but uh with the potential cuts to Medicaid coming.
SPEAKER_01:Um I'll be br I'll be I I can be brief.
SPEAKER_00:Um we I've heard people go, this isn't it's fine. Cut the Medicaid because it's the church's job to take care of the poor. Sure doesn't have to be a good thing. Which is what you're arguing right here. Yeah. It is the church's job to take care of economic solidarity. So why is that a bad thing if if we cut it nationally?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, it is also it is the church's job, but it's also the government's job too. Um and and and it's if like okay, like you you can say that, I would say that too. That also means it's gonna become much harder for churches now.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, because what's going to happen if these if these policies go through the the gap between the rich and the poor is going to get much, much wider.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And so and so the and and so and so then the question is going to be asked of your churches, are you going to be a church of the poor or are you going to be a church of the rich? Because and and there and and and and there is a um uh God has his favor on one of those churches. Um so like so so now people are gonna people are really gonna have to put their money, put their money where their mouth is. It are is are are you just going to invest in your own in your own accumulation? Because there are ways in which for some accumulation is going to get even easier. For others, their suffering is going to get even more dire. And so the question, so the qu the pastoral question is going to be, where are you going to focus your attention? Um and and and in in these next few years, there is going to be there's going to be a lot, there's going to be a lot of suffering. The question is going to be on whose on whose side is the church going to be found.
SPEAKER_00:No. Um and so we have answer is economic solidarity, and then to violence, it's to a commitment to anti-violence. And you you you you you trace the the story of James Cohn um and and kind of going through all of this. And I just I love on page 138, um, you you you end the chapter saying, whereas he resisted King's commitment to nonviolence decades beforehand, Cohn came to recognize Christ's forgiveness as spiritual resistance, a revolt against hatred, and a refusal to allow the hater to make you like him. He saw that nonviolence was love, the most powerful way to resist the violent white supremacy. In seeing Christ more clearly, Cohn began to see the possibilities of a beloved community in which exploitation and violence are no more because the people of God love as Christ has called them to love, regardless of racial identity. It was ultimately the cross that drilled nonviolence or antiviolence into Cohn's soul in the final year of his life. It's only the cross that will do the same in each and every one of us. I mean, you That's pretty good. You you you might want to be a preacher. I know. Occasionally I sometimes read back this like, ooh, that was that was pretty good. And so this is where it's like you're asking you're describing something so dark, you're describing something so uh uh heinous, um, and then you're asking us something so hard, and yet you're going, but here are the resources to do it. And so to economic solidarity, to anti-violence, which I encourage you to read this chapter, we might have to do a whole uh another episode back on these these these solutions, and then it's to truth telling. And and you talk about all of the ways to to counter the lies of the enemy and all of the things that that we we keep being told about race and racism and about our our our world, and then you end with the the beautiful chapter of this creative kingdom. And I I Malcolm, I commend you. Like this is this book, I'm saying I said at the very beginning, like this is your heart coming out here. It is. Um I'll give you the last word. If someone wants to to start making changes in their life, um to be anti-greed, yeah. Uh to regarding wealth and you know, economic salary, I mean do just apply those things, or what would you what would you tell them maybe like a first step they should take?
SPEAKER_02:Two very easy first steps. Um very easy, quote unquote. Uh they're easy in the sense that they're simple. One uh one is to learn to ask for help, uh, and two is to learn to share. Because when we learn to ask for help, what we do is we give our brothers and sisters opportunities to love us. And um, and so whenever people ask for kind of like, what do I kind of what's what's the what's what's my next step? I was like, basically learn to ask for help. Build build a community of people who are willing to ask for help. And also build a community that recognizes that Christ has called us together to walk alongside one another. Um so we gotta learn to share. We we we gotta learn to think about all the resources that God has given us as meant to be as meant to be shared. Yeah um because one of the most significant witnesses of the church is supposed to be its economic witness. Um when we show the when we show the world what it what what communities of sharing can look like, and that it might be a common purse, but you it takes for some communities, especially now, it it it would take a while to get to that point. You you you gotta figure out for your for your community kind of what it looks like to implement those principles. But Christ has given us Christ has given us those principles pretty clearly.
SPEAKER_00:Well, brother, it is such a good book. If you have not yet grabbed it, go grab the anti-Greek gospel. Um try to not buy it from Amazon.
SPEAKER_01:Uh yeah, yeah. You can go to bookshop, bookshop.org. Uh you'll be able to support your local bookstores.
SPEAKER_00:Uh it is so good. As we said, try to get a couple of these. Um, and I and I hope in future episodes we'll we need to probably unpack some more of uh the ways of implementing some of this. Oh yeah. Um, but as always, the you know, this guest, this particular one, we'll have on more. And so you'll get to hear more um about this and other uh conversations. So uh if you have m questions for Malcolm or questions about this, you can email hello at theologypieces.com. You can hit that uh ask us button there. Um oh man, Malcolm. So so good. Glad to be of service. And uh, you know, anything uh people they they they know where to find you on Twitter. You all know. They they know where to find you. You all know, but you might at some point have uh a new website as well.
SPEAKER_02:I do, it's true. Uh a buddy of mine is setting up uh is helping me set up a set up a website. So antigreedgospel.com will soon be mine. That's pretty awesome.
SPEAKER_00:Uh well, hey, if you have enjoyed this episode, the best way to support this work is by giving a rating review. If you found any of it helpful, would you give us five stars? And would you share this episode with with somebody? Uh encourage others to listen to this, but uh more importantly, grab this book and start thinking through these big, big topics. Y'all, we are hoping to do this on a more regular basis than once every three months, and so we will see you soon. We will see you very soon. All right, bye, y'all.