Veils to the Soul
Season 2 ... Masculinity and Spirituality. An exploration into the current state of the Masculine in Therapy and Spirituality.
Season 1 ... Birthing Spirit in the Modern World. An exploration of what's between us and our Souls' birth, and how the Modern World resists that birth, but needs it - if it's to survive and thrive!
Veils to the Soul
4. Needs?
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Men and their needs, Why are we generally so rubbish at knowing and expressing our needs as men? What are we missing out on? Hint - Lots. Gary and Oliver explore the subject of Needs.
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For Oliver's Psycho-Spiritual work with Individuals, Couples and Groups, please visit www.oliverbaum.co.uk.
For more information on Gary's work www.thewrightmedium.co.uk
Veils to the Soul, Masculinity and Spirituality with Oliver Baum. And Gary Wright. So today we are talking about needs. And this kind of started, I mean, Gary, you asked the question last time we spoke, or just after last time we spoke. Can you ask for what you need? And this is as men within, I suppose, all walks of life. And it's been really interesting the last, what is it? It's been nearly 10 days since we last spoke. And this has sent me down a rabbit hole and a half. And even this morning, since I woke up this morning, my whole, all my shoulders have sort of been moving upwards towards my ears as everything's contracted. And I and I I I mean avoidance is definitely the word, let's put it that way. I can feel that just really coming through my body at the thought of this topic. Um, yeah, and where it might lead or not, as the case may be.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I woke up this morning and I thought, oh, I just checked, I you know, every morning I check me grounding. And I thought, oh, I've really got a ground, oh, oh, what's this about? Oh, oh yeah, doing that. Yeah. I I can't say I'd forgotten that I was doing it. I hadn't forgotten I was doing it, but I'd slightly moved the topic out of my brain where often they were they're often poking in about. So I I do hear you on that. I've got a little bit of a okay, why did I pick this subject? But I've probably picked it because it's it's it's very needed. Needing needing what you need is very needed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It's true. And I mean the main themes that have been sitting with me, which I think were are probably things for a future episode, but just to sort of bring them into the picture, it just the the separation or the fear of separation and the fear of isolation. Um probably rejection is in there as well. Um but I I just thought it just I mean, men and and maybe this is a bit of a stereotype, we're not regarded as good at asking or knowing what our needs are. Um it's often with clients, male clients, um, with relationship difficulties. You know, I'll ask, you know, what are your needs? and and they'll just look at me blankly. And they they might be, you know, complaining that their needs aren't being met in a relationship, but they're not actually able to really ascertain what their needs are and more importantly, articulate them.
SPEAKER_01Yes, which of course always leaves somebody saying, Well, my needs aren't being met. But if you don't know what you need, how do you know if they're being met and how can you ask for them? So I totally hear that one. It was it's a very interesting one. I mean, I see it sometimes with clients myself, and you know, they don't always know why they're sat in front of me, but they know they've got to explore something. And I always sit there and look back and think, I've I've I have said it out loud. I've said, Well, how are we gonna know when we get there? Because if you don't know what you obviously one does because when uh you have a light bulb moment sometimes goes on when something is you know is said to you, but quite often men don't really know what they need, don't know how to ask, don't know if if it's in front of them and it's on offer because it's not clear. And um, I've very much been um guilty of that in my time. Professionally, I know exactly what I want often, and have got no problems asking for it and saying, well, actually, and and holding a boundary. But personally, around sort of emotional kind of um support and things, it can be it can be uh dodgy, it can be kind of confusing for me. I mean, when we after we'd finished recording and we parted last time, you said, Well, do reach out if you need if you need me. And I immediately found myself going, What did you why did you think I can't manage? And and that was not what you'd said. But I'd gone into a place of thinking, oh, hang on, what what but but but and so it's very interesting, isn't it? Even if there's a direct offer, can we accept it? Can we go? Okay, I've just had a direct offer to respond. Somebody's actually willing to listen to me. I mean it was very interesting, actually, that very it it I it only took me kind of a minute or so to work out what happened, but there was direct um a direct impact on my um on my inner stability, for use of a better word.
SPEAKER_00And I and I could you said something similar to me just before I offered it to you. I do wonder if I was offering it to you out of revenge thinking about it now. It's kind of like, well, you said that do I need help? So I'm gonna ask you kind of thing. And then we can both sit there not getting our needs met all and feeling affronted that maybe someone thinks we can't cope. But it I mean it it's fascinating, this isn't it? I mean and a lot of it is you know, the societal and cultural boys don't cry, um, stiff up a lip. You know, I I've probably as Brits, we're probably even worse than most people, um, this kind of stuff. But it the you know, man up, there's so many things in society that that sort of entreat men generally just to swallow their feelings down, swallow their needs down, and just sort of, I suppose, keep calm and carry on kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and I think that c causes in lots of in lots of well actually in lots of people, because um I had a very interesting conversation with somebody yesterday who um who's with a very, very she's with a very conscious man, and he's very good at reflecting and coming back if there's a problem and really being able to kind of apologize. I mean, he really kind of I mean he's you know he's a dream, dream person in terms of communication. Um but it's a very interesting one that you know that's quite rare that somebody can ask for what they want, really, um, and express what they're feeling. Because some of it is can we express what we're feeling? Or is always a bit of a risk. And then you've got a double risk in asking for your needs mate, supposing somebody says, Well, no, I'm not really interested, or no, I'm not gonna do that, or no, I I'm not available. So there's two, you're you're I think subconsciously lots of men weigh it up um with is there is it is it too risky to ask? And then you've got lots of women who are kind of standing there trying to help and going, oh actually, I can't, I don't know what I don't know what I need. So I think all people in life find it tricky navigating on both genders the fact that men don't always know how to ask. Um and explore really what's going on within that. I mean it's a even exploring why we can't ask is a big thing, really.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And I I mean you're absolutely right that it it is not just a male problem. There's a there's a relational element to this, and and I think just generally people are not really that great at knowing what their needs are and articulating them to each other. But I d I do wonder if if if the reasons behind it or the terror even behind it, the fear behind it is is I mean we might put on a a gruff exterior about it, but actually he's almost deeper in men. I mean I've got this theory that that men feel and fear isolation generally, and sweeping generalization this by the way, more than um more than women. Usually from from very early on as a baby, that separation from mum is much more that's felt as much more complete in a man because you know we are completely different from our mothers. Um that lack of commonality. So I think on a on a sort of object relations basis there's there is a real tear in the I almost want to say in the soul of a lot of men that means that stepping forwards to say, you know, can I have this? Um just is that bit harder. Um and while they might find it easier asking for women say for that, I think in a in a um say in a male group, men's group second um setting, men asking other men is even harder.
SPEAKER_01Yes, that's definitely been my observation and experience, really. But um there's a sort of thing sometimes in men's groups, you know, which is sort of very much encouraging men to self-resource. And you know, that's uh there's nothing wrong with that. It's a very, very uh interesting point to, you know, do I need to go for a walk? Do I need a bit of personal time? Do I need to shower? Do I need to just to sit and have a cup of tea? What do I need in those breaks? You know, we're often that's often seen as the thing, personally kind of resourcing yourself. But um, what often doesn't happen is in those breaks, you often do find people kind of milling about uh on their own or a group of people, you know, talking about exactly what's not exactly what's not been discussed in the morning or going to be discussed in the afternoon or whatever. It's sort of a kind of way of um not being able to journey really what's happening within sometimes. And I don't know whether that's just a learnt experience that it hasn't been met, so let's not bother asking. Or whether it's a deeper thing of not being able to not wanting to disappear down the rabbit hole. I think, well, if I open this, where am I gonna where's it gonna lead me? And I'm never sure which one it is, and it might be just a revolting mixture of them both, um, in lots of people, but it's definitely uh a very common theme that men can't ask for what they need.
SPEAKER_00I'm reminded, I this just popped in. I'm gonna really hash up describing this, but um the there's a book, Jungian book, Descent of the Goddess, um which sort of charts, and I can't remember the names, it's been a long time since I read it. But what Descent into the Underworld Um of whoever the main character was, isn't it? And her it's it's it's it's not Persephone in that, but it it's a similar kind of it's a similar kind of um myth. Um and her her, if I remember rightly, her husband or a partner is the king, and he sits there on the throne, um you know, lording over everything while she does all the work in the underworld. Um and and the that's basically it's kind of like a parallel um to I suppose it's basically saying that the masculine doesn't do the the hard work, which I is emotionally anyway, um, which is often a complaint. I mean, certainly a complaint I've heard from a lot of women. Um and I think to a degree there's some truth in it as well. Um but yeah, so there's I wonder if there's something about a man's status within that that is threatened by or has the potential feels as if it's threatened by showing vulnerability by expressing our needs.
SPEAKER_01I think there is that point, isn't there? And there is that point with somebody being able to say, Well, no, I'm not available for that, or I don't want to talk about that, or just not being heard. So there is a risk factor, isn't there? And I wonder if that risk is weighed up of it's better not to say anything. You know, I mean, we know that male suicide is very, very high. I mean, frighteningly high. I don't know what the statistics are, but I know it to be really quite shocking. And that often is a thing of of isolation. And I'm not sure if people speak out. Sometimes that makes my that that that doesn't always alter that that action if they go if they're really set on taking it. But I definitely feel that actually more spaces where people can say what's what they want and um what was hap, what what is there? It was very interesting actually, because I was reminded the other day, I thought, have I done this, have I done this ever? And actually said, This is what I need in those clear words of is this what I need. And I came to the conclusion um that I've I consciously remember doing it once. I'm sure I have done it other times, but it's probab they were not available in my mind. And I remember doing uh some trance mediumship work um when I was training, and uh uh the facilitator that was running this weekend was not particularly very good at bringing everybody back, and I hadn't done a lot of it at that point, and I was all completely at sea, and I thought I just need somebody to put their hands on me and actually stay stabilize my energy a bit, and I remember asking this man to do that, and I remember it being hugely um a huge challenge, but the result, if I hadn't asked, the result was I was either going to be sick or fall over. It was, you know, the other the other choices were were not pleasant either. And um, oh yeah, totally, it was fine. Um, didn't you think? And it was absolutely kind of clear. But I thought, isn't it interesting that I consciously I can remember asking once for an energetic emotional need where I could remember asking multiple times for more money or a better kind of room or or something that I needed practically. I think men can ask practically, it's easier, you know, to get the external world the way they want it. I think is sometimes more available. It's that bit where it's saying energetically or emotionally, I can't quite regulate myself, I can't quite find what I need. I need to discuss it or I need to ask for something, is much more risky. And I thought, well, that's I've managed to remember doing that once, which was um I I try not to do shame and guilt, but I did notice it myself. I thought, it's not a great, the odds aren't great, gal, on that, you know. You should have you should have possibly managed to have done it more than once, or at least remember doing it more than once.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm sort of staring into a blank space thinking about that kind of thing. Um I'm also wondering about you know, I there's certain situations where I'm I'm I will ask for my needs to be met. Um and I but I'm just thinking how that's received or how I perceive the reception will be. And I there is actually if I feel into it, there's an assumption that actually the the odds are if I ask I won't get.
SPEAKER_01And uh I I'm gonna go for what my I'm gonna ask for what I need here, really. Uh uh knowing that you might say no, which is of course the risk, isn't it? Uh you said in certain situations, and because I don't know what those situations are, you can say no, I don't want to share those situations, but but I thought I'd ask. See, I've done it. And I didn't die.
SPEAKER_00There you go, well done. Nobody's dark so far. We wait wait for me to say no and then say what does that feel like? Yeah, well let's say I will well no, that kind of spoils it if I say I will answer it and then say no, but and see how that feels. But um relationally is is the obvious one. I mean I I'm looking childhood as well. Um so school schools would be you know, a an obvious ground for not get not sort of um not really getting your needs met. Certainly for me anyway, that's my experience, and also not being encouraged to ask for your needs to be met. Um I mean this is going back to the 70s and the eighties, but um but yeah, I think relationships would be the main one. But I I if I really I mean this is more psychotherapeutic, I suppose, but if I really feed into it, the core would be the mother relationship of this, that that kind of that reaching out I'm sort of picturing a baby in a cot. Um and this this could be me, um more anybody else, um, reaching out to be picked up and then just being left to cry out. You know, in our generation we very much were that was the received wisdom was oh you leave a baby to cry out. Um and then the arms kind of go sort of uh floppy and um noodly, should we say. Um and and there's a sort of sense of giving up in asking, in reaching out. Um and when that I mean there's there's there's there's a thing called the reaching out movement in family constellations, um, which is a wonderful bit of work when it's really lands where that person feels received. Um and yeah. So I do I mean I do think fundamentally it goes to a very, very, very young age.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I think it does. I think sp it it does. We do kind of work out that there's no point because in the past quite a lot of needs were not met, especially of of that generation, and maybe generations in the you know, the the generation kind of behind us. I think some of the the the generations that uh you know the millennials are a little, you know, in my experience, a little bit better at asking for what they need than you know the 70s, eighties, 90s gr you know eras of being born, still find it quite hard, actually, although the 90s people are, you know are a little bit, a little bit better. But um but it is I think that we learn that you know that's not gonna happen, so we won't bother. And then we sort of do fall into that kind of energy of men of thinking, well, actually maybe we're the ones that have got to look after other people. And maybe we get our needs met somewhere by by feeling valued in looking after people. But it is sometimes very, very hard, isn't it, to actually ask and say this is what I want. Because there is that risk. But again, I often talk about this, it's a bit of a gateway, because you uh then might find something else happening. I did a I did a um it was to do with the theatre actually. It was to do with uh different laws, uh well not laws, but different kind of regulations changing in and around of the entertainment industry about what you could could and couldn't do in a rehearsal room. And you had to ask whether, you know, can we try this, especially if it had a lot of physicality in it, with a lot of physical movement or a lot of physical interaction between two performers? And so I went on a you know, a conscious, conscious what's available and what what your needs are um workshop. And um it was very interesting for people to say, could we say to as directors, as I was then, could we say to actors, well, I'd really like to explore this? Because there it was encouraged, it is very much encouraged now and it should be, for actors to say, actually, no, that's not quite available for that. Not quite available for for that kind of work. Is there another way we can approach this bit? You know, you get a much better rehearsal room, but it wasn't always the way it was always done. But it was hugely difficult for all of us to ask for what we wanted, because you had to ask for something where potentially it was going to be a no. Um, so when you said, well, you know, what's about experiencing those no's, sometimes in there you get a no, but quite often what happens, and I think we don't always appreciate this, there'll be another space opens. Well, no, don't know about that, but this, this, and this is probably able to explore. And you and quite often you think, Well, actually, I hadn't thought of that. And so I wonder in personal situations, even if we get a know from or somebody says, Well, I don't, I can't talk to you about that, we might learn something more. About them because maybe it's it's just too difficult for them to have those conversations. And then suddenly you've got more of an insight into who who else somebody is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure. And I I definitely in in the relationships where the other person is receptive to this, these kind of conversations. I I I think every difficult conversation I've ever had in those circumstances has been rewarded by a deepening of connection, intimacy, whatever it might be. There's something about that courage again, in in even if you're sort of every sinew in my body might want to sort of dodge the subject, whatever it might be, the actual the art act of leaning into that and kind of doing it anyway. Yeah, and it may not be in a way that I anticipated, but that's okay.
SPEAKER_01And it's a very interesting uh one actually, because I was talking to a friend yesterday, and um something had happened uh around her, and the excuse had been, you know, that they she'd said, Well, I I want to work out how we got to this kind of thinking. It was in a professional situation, and they said, Oh, well, we thought this, this, this, this, and this. And I said, Well, they were just kind of defending themselves. But of course, what often happens in conversations is somebody will have a conversation and start doing something in a particular way or taking professional situation or an emotional situation in a particular way, and they've not had the conversation with everybody else, and so it's clear in their mind, and then you know, you're left standing there thinking, I don't know where we're going. And I remember saying to somebody once, yeah, but you've had that conversation, we all haven't. So we don't know where what your plan is. And there was this hushed silence across the room, you know, back to my you know, difficult penetrating dark masculine came in at that point, and they all sat there going, Oh yeah. I said, We don't know what your what asked of us because they cleared it all in the you know, bit middle management down to another level. They'd sorted it out and themselves imposed it, but we didn't know where they were, and it wasn't immediately clear. So sometimes it just is in that space that somebody's assumed they've been clear and haven't. So that's where asking and saying, Well, I need this is really helpful.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure. And I mean you see that in the end of relationships quite often. I I do i I might get a couple come and it it's sort of too late for therapy, but um, maybe it's it's the right time so they could separate in a friendly way or a more conducive way to peace, let's put it that way. Um, but uh you know, the person who's made the decision to end the relationship has probably been considering it and contemplating it for years potentially. And then the other person feels completely blindsided by it. And there is that catch-up period. Um yeah, yeah, and again, that's there's a lack of communication that's been in the build-up to that, maybe. I mean, I can be quite guilty of of um uh you know, mulling things over in my head till I find a place of peace within me. Um without really necessarily including whoever else might be involved in it. Um quite often because historically though someone may not have been available. Um but yeah, I I I do wonder if it's the male way that kind of to a degree, anyway, that retreating, pulling back from a situation, mulling it over before re-engaging or not, as the case might be.
SPEAKER_01There is that moment of retreat, which I think is very available in men for to themselves, where they'll retreat, plan something out, come to a place of maybe not okay with it, but oh, we'll just muddle on or something. You know, they've found something in in them, but they've managed to not to not have the conversation or ask for what they need within that. And I was very group guilty of this in the summer of doing this in a particular professional situation I was in. And um, I got myself, you know, I made it work for me, but I didn't actually communicate what was really going on. And I can't say I then blamed everybody for not getting me, but I definitely removed myself slightly energetically from spaces and then felt quite isolated. But I I watched myself do it to myself, really. Um it was a mistake on my part, but then it was almost a bit too late to catch up. You know, it was one of those things that by the time I'd worked out what I'd done, it was kind of nearly time to go home. So it was a bit pointless, really, kind of trying to put anything else in. But it's very interesting, isn't it? We sometimes we remove ourselves and then we still hold that, but my needs weren't met. We didn't actually ask. And I'm a great one for uh turning round to people and saying, yes, but you never asked. And sometimes I do know, but think, well, maybe they don't want, don't want my opinion on things. So I I respectfully hold that. But I do expect half of the people to ask me for what they need, but I do I do expect other people to instantly know what my needs are met, possibly before even I know that I need them myself, you know, which is ridiculous, really, you know. But uh, but it's a very learned behavior.
SPEAKER_00I suppose you can't even fall back on that. I can't fall back when I'm not dying.
SPEAKER_01No, no, I can't. I can't. People say to me, but you are, and I'm going, well, not in this situation, but no, I definitely can't. But it's a very but when my needs have been there, and sometimes it has been professionally, and maybe it's been a bin, a heater, a candle in a room, you know, and I haven't asked, it's felt very, very, very supportive. And it's been a practical thing which wouldn't necessarily have changed uh too much about the day, you know, anyway. But you know, when people have really thought about the space that I'm stepping into work and really made it work, I really appreciate it. And I think, well, if I actually ask, if I'm available for people to, if I become that person to people who can ask for what they need from me, um, how much richer does relationships and situations get? And how much richer are they when I can be the person where people know that I'm gonna ask for what I need in some ways? And sometimes it's not, you know, sometimes it's just not um appropriate to ask in some ways. You just think, well, it's just it's not really gonna be, it's not it's not really what I need. But in long-term relationships, I think we do owe it to ourselves a bit to be a little bit more courageous. Yeah, I'd agree with that. Um but it is hard, it is incredibly hard sometimes to ask. I've got a friend who's brilliant asking for what they want. I mean, brilliant. And he's one of the safest people to be in a room with because you know that one, he's gonna ask for what he needs, two, he's available for you to ask because that's his philosophy on life. And so there's this incredibly calm um energy that comes out of him because he's very in control of his space. And when I say control, he's not controlling, but he's it that there's no surprises can come up because one he can emotionally say, This is what I need, or what do you need? It is very empowering in that. But he's got this incredible, so he has a very um, what looks like a very charmed life. Yes, he has problems and challenges like we all do, but uh they don't tip him up too much because he's very, very, there's no drama can come in because he's very good at saying, Well, I need this, or what do you need in this situation? And and actually holding you, if you kind of squirm and and aren't able to ask what he said, then that's not what you you haven't answered, what I've said. So it's quite challenging as a person, but he does it in a very safe way. So it's extraordinary. He's one of the only people I know that really does that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's interesting. And reminds me, I mean, you mentioned the dark masculine uh earlier, but reminds me of something we talked about with the light masculine holding space. Um but not necessarily being available. I mean maybe I'm adding this bit on, but not necessarily being available to be held.
unknownYeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And and there is something I mean, the person you've just mentioned, it sounds as if you know he's someone who can really hold his own heart and brings a safety and a holding to whatever the the situation is. Um but an authentic holding rather than the, well, I'll just keep myself small in the background here and just hold space for you kind of thing. Um and not have my needs met. You know, there's not there's a safety in not having to ask for for holding space for other people without asking for our own needs.
SPEAKER_01Yes, he's in it I I think you are right on that, on the on the light masculine, it does hold space very strongly, but it can hold space for itself if it's learnt how to. But it is that part where often, you know, it's that moving between, you know, holding the space for everybody else, and everybody else's needs come before mine, and then eventually, if there's time, I'll ask. Where he's very much like your life, he's he he has he holds an energy, is your life will be better if I'm getting my needs met and I'm available to support your needs being met. And that is very much the energy thing. He's incredibly powerful when he walks into a room, and he's quite a challenging man on that. And people do walk away and find it all very, very for a bit too much, but he's fine, he's he's fine with it. Um, but if you can say what you need, um, it's kind of rather incredible. And people ask him for extraordinary things, you know. Uh he's the person that, you know, if you've suddenly got this deep kind of feeling that you want to go and climb a mountain, you know, he's the person people go and ask. You go, well, actually, it's not really my thing, but we'll be very supportive on trying to find some find a group for you who are going to do that that you can join. So there's an availability, if he's not available, he'll he'll go, but you always feel heard. So it's an incredibly interesting um dynamic that he holds. Because uh to ask for what you need sometimes is it's kind of the really the gold side, I would say, of the dark masculine. You know, it does it's not prevalent in society to be able to say the dark masculine does have to penetrate and does have to kind of it has a force behind it. And asking for what you need is actually about really breaking through something, because it's not prevalent in society and it's not what men do, does require a real sort of that gold side of the dark masculine to come in and say, actually, this is what I need. This is or what what I feel I'd like to offer as well. Um, because sometimes uh asking somebody else what they need is really what also what you need to navigate the situation. So it's not you know exactly linear either way, really, but it does require to go past that point of of risking something, so it does require a courage and it does require um an opportunity to say um uh this would this would work better for me if um if this is if this is available. Um when I'm teaching people mediumship and things, and about especially when they're moving into the professional world, uh the interesting thing about that role, and lots of roles in life in in a way, but we don't often talk about them. It's it's gotta work for you for it to work for your client. And it's and you think of other people in society, you know, you think of the surgeon. The surgeon needs the space to work for them, for it to work for the patient. If it's not working for the for the surgeon, it's definitely not gonna work for the patient, you know, who is in a very vulnerable position at that point. You know, so in quite a lot of spaces, we are really required to ask for what we need, practically and emotionally, for other people's needs as well. And I wonder if we look at it as men of thinking, actually, does that make other people's lives better as well? Whether that gives us an easier access point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's interesting. Because there's definitely something that sort of I mean again, this could be a conditioning that to our there's some sacrifice has to be involved. Um there's almost like an a nobility in sacrifice. So in sacrificing my needs to the greater good, which may not be a greater good, but whatever it is. There's some sort of yeah, there is a nobility in that, which I'm not sure is true, because you it it's interesting, I feel I was feeling into both the resistance to really sort of to being like the um the the person you were m talking about. Um and I can feel like my chest just close off and it's it's like something's pushing into my chest and really stopping me moving forward. That would be the reluctance and and it's definitely fear-based. And then if I feel into the um uh you know, an openness to doing that, it's much more expansive and freeing. Um and actually it is much more of a holding space. So there's there's a sort of I I think I don't know whether it's just conditioning, but certainly conditioning and reality, uh, I mean, as is often the case, don't match up.
SPEAKER_01No, no, they don't often. And uh the the opportunity to kind of push through something, which I I think we're not always good at feeling. It's a bit of a judgment in there, because some people are, but um there's always an excitement in there, and if we can find the exciting bit, we're more likely to be able to push through it because we we're very used to kind of going, well, I can feel the resistance, and those are all important things to observe in oneself, but there is the the excitement of that part, that step forward into something, which is very, very um unexplored in men, I think.
SPEAKER_00Can you say more about that? That's interesting.
SPEAKER_01Uh often the unknown, well, it's it happens in lots of things. Often the unknown, uh, we're very good at working out as men what the risks are. You know, oh, if I move there, maybe I'll be more isolated, but it's nearer work, but you know, you know, I won't know as many people, and you know, there's no pub nearby. You know, there's all those things we're very good at at uh looking and thinking what's and practically trying to work out where to alleviate risk sometimes. But sometimes if we can really go, okay, there's a lot of fear and there's a lot of resistance, but the flip side of that, if we can drop past that fear and resistance, there we we find an opportunity of an excitement because there's an unknown. So the adventurer in us then has a place to go. And then actually, no, but this could be quite good. This could be this could be quite interesting. I could, you know, could have a whole new life, I can you know reinvent myself, I can do what I can be the new me. And so there's an excitement past that fear, but quite often, because going through that little bit of resistance and fear is quite uncomfortable, we'll try and practically work out what we need by not going into too much risk. Because always the unknown is difficult. Um, it's a surrendering point, isn't it? It's a surrendering point to trust, trust that something's gonna be okay. You know, uh, I admire these people who suddenly go, right, I'm going around the world, and you know, they they go off with a couple of hundred pounds and their passport and a bag full of clothes and off they go. And I mean, that'd be my idea of hell. I mean, I just couldn't do it. Yeah, you and me. I've never done it because I couldn't do it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um it's interesting the examples you gave there, you know, with the oh, there's no pub, the you know, that I won't know anybody, etc. etc. It all it's all about isolation again or a little or being left alone. But the the the paradox in this is actually by not expressing our needs, we end up feeling lonely. We might be, you know, it's that classic example of feeling alone in a cloud, crowded room. You know, we might be in a relationship, we might have a group of friends, but if we're not expressing our needs, we will feel isolated from the tribe.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and isolation is as we know, quite one of the big things that a lot of men feel. Um but it you are totally right. By not saying what we want, we're isolated, and by saying what we want, we might be laughed at, somebody might go, Oh, I'm not doing that, oh ridiculous. And we might be isolated anyway, but still there is the isolation. But in asking, we might get something else happen, we might get our needs met, and somebody goes, Oh, is that all you? Oh, of course I can do that for you. And you know, we've built up this great big thing, and somebody else says to them, Well, why didn't you ask? It's very interesting. People people know some some people know this about me, some people don't. But I also make uh hand-made drums. Um, but I make handmade and I do make, you know, I was trained very well, uh, very well by um in this group. There was only eight of us trained, and um we we m we all made some quite spectacular looking drums, and I'm not bad at it as well, actually. Um but asking initially for that support with a completely new skill, with a very available facilitator, you couldn't have got anybody more available, was still risky. And I remember being on this table of men, and we were all absolutely struggling away, and one brave soul went, I think we need a bit of help. I'm speaking on behalf of the table because we were all at some point having a bit of a difficult challenge. Birthing a drum is is it's a bit I've never given birth, funnily enough, but but some of the ladies said it was as difficult sometimes emotionally as actually having a child. But um, yeah, yeah, because you're really bringing something else in that actually may be around much longer than you, eventually, if it's made well, and um all sorts of things, and is there's a spirit of a drum in some ways and a voice. So um, but that moment where somebody had to be brave and say, I need something, and I missionally meant well, actually, I'm okay, and I thought actually, I'm really not, but it is about but immediately that happened, everything the whole energy of the table fell away. And it is that part of um not being isolated and and just making do. Um it's there is always a uh I think a thing in men to just uh we'll it w it'll be enough. But it's often the bit that's not enough is often the the bit in us that's not fulfilled. That's the bit that we often give away. Oh well it'll be okay, I'll get it'll be it'll work work for most people, so that's good enough, but in us that we're we're the ones that don't get our knees wreck because we can't ask. Does that make sense? Almost confuse myself there with with what I was thinking.
SPEAKER_00Well it does it, I mean it I it it does uh you know it's a certainly a web that we weave for ourselves.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and I feel that sometimes um the the initial thing of uh it's exploring that excitement in what's at risk to ask. And and it's that bit that we don't often do. We we we're very good at trying not to ask for too much. Um because maybe that disappoints. Of not getting it met, or that learned behavior of not getting something met, where quite often, you know, if somebody's very courageous, it does help the collective as well.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, yeah. And you and the I think if I take anything from this conversation today, is that leaning into the excitement side of it, the potential the potentiality of of what could come rather than the fear and or anxiety, um, which sometimes can actually feel quite similar in the body as well. So we can often make a mistake about is this excitement or is it.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Actually, you make a very good point. Well said, is that quite often we assume it's they're both about the unknown and they're both about going into things. So they they do vibrate at similar frequencies, really. If if you know, if that's not too complicated a thing to get your head around, they do vibrate at similar things, but it is about we assume quite often that actually I'm feeling something quite intense, therefore I won't do it. Quite often it's more about excitement of the unknown. But if we can push through that and ask for what we want, or just even think about what we want, you know, what do we want? Is it is it too risky to think about what do I want? Quite a lot of men don't go even into that thinking of what I want. Let alone ask for it. And so I think there's a real starting point to sit there and think, actually, if I could, you know, uh have a have a day, have an evening, have a job, have a experience, what do I what would I want? And seeing if if how much we self-edit that down to think, well, I'm more or less can ask for that because it's more realistic. And I think the self-editing is something around asking for what we want that comes in very, very strongly. Oh, I won't ask for that. Yeah. Well ask for this, and you think, well, I don't know if I really want that, so that I won't bother at all. Before we know where we are, we've we've just avoided the whole thing again.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, sometimes when I'm working with somebody, I might ask them, you know, what's your heart's desire in this? And then and they go, oh, oh, and it's always there's no permission there to really ask for it. And then I might encourage them to just, you know, be greedy. What do you really want from all of this? Um, and and there's a there's a g there is a glee and an excitement that can come with that, as well as maybe a bit of trepidation as well. Um I d I've I've got uh an American colleague of mine, um, and she had this this great line um that British men um are able to withstand the most incredibly uh long-lived level of low-level um depression, basically. You know, of not asking for their needs to be made and and made and met rather, and I mean almost like the mustn't grub up grumble taken to uh an extreme level.
SPEAKER_01I think uh we're a great, you know, having d directed theatre and and love language and um different things. Uh Britain is known for those wonderful kind of sort of sound bites to live by, you know. Never complain, never explain, you know, be careful what you wish for. All those things we're often, you know, we're very good at uh what I call a very effective statement, but they're often about not looking forward, they're often about settling and not it going expanding beyond and not expressing what we need. You know, there's beautiful language and beautiful plays and beautiful poems uh that have been written, you know, through you know, many, many centuries, you know, that are really good. And we have them in there, but the ones that we tend to hang on to are the ones that actually keep us quite small.
SPEAKER_00And they're often contradictory. I remember being brought up with um, if you don't ask, you don't get, which, you know, on the surface that's great. But I was also brought up with I want never get and food don't seem very well.
SPEAKER_01No, yes. And you know, please please say what you need, and then you say what you need, and somebody goes, Oh, I don't think we can do that. But you just ask me, you know, and I've been I've been having these conversations with with lots of people recently over a family situation where I'm saying, you know, oh you're you're really important, you're really important in this, and I'm like, Yes, I know. And then I say what what what's important for me, and they kind of go, Well, it's not really available. And I'm thinking, well, tell me what's available, and then I can work out what's important in that, and that's not things so quite often as a society, uh, very much uh um, and this has happened, I think, in the last 10 years. We've wanted people to say what they do and to be heard and to be seen, and all those are great, and and I'm not saying we should take any any of those away, but quite often they're kind of sound bites to tick a box. Well, we've asked them and they've expressed it tick, but actually, we didn't really need to do it. And we and we knew we couldn't, but we've asked.
SPEAKER_00And that keeps that cycle of then the the person sort of goes towards expresses their need and then feels the disappointment and then gives up. And again, it's back to that reaching out and the arms give way, and it's like, oh, there's no point in this, I'll just do it myself.
SPEAKER_01And I found myself saying, you know, end of last year, well, you'll do what you want to do, but you'll ask me what I want, but it won't really matter. And of course, that that doesn't necessarily get you win you many favors, really, because it is a bit, it is a bit petulant. But it funnily enough did stop a room. And I said, Explain to me what what is available, and then I can negotiate it. You've all had a conversation, back to that one. You've all had a conversation that I haven't had, which is when I explained that bit, they all got it. But that was in a professional space, so those are ones I'm very good at. It's the deeply emotional ones that sometimes I'm not very good at asking for. But it is in that language of of don't ask. And so I think we have to very much, as you know, as you as your American colleague said, as British men, push beyond a little bit more and risk a little bit more and see what happens. Because often I find that when men are asked for something, there is that, you know, men ask other men for something. There is that part of men that do want to serve and do want to be seen and do want to be helpful, where they'll go, actually, yes, no, that's fine. I'll I'll yeah, of course I can. And actually they're very available, but somehow we kind of somehow in our heads we think we're not. It's not available. But often I've seen it work more times than it fails.
SPEAKER_00Asking for our needs to be met by the spirit, the divine, the God, whichever word someone wants to use. Does that feel easier or harder? Thinking specifically with men in spirituality? Oh, that's a good question, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Um I can only speak from my spirit perspective, and I suppose what I observe. Um professionally as a working medium, I'm I'm often asking for what I need in those professional situations from spirit, from whoever guides help us beyond. I mean, somebody once said to me about, you know, I wouldn't want to ever be Gary's spirit guides if I was working, working at, you know, when he's a working medium, because I'm very, very clear on what I need when I'm working. You know, though, but you know, and I have said in in times where I was training, you know, if you can't get me accurate information, find me a guide who can. You know, so on that, it it's I've I've done something professional with it, but personally, sometimes I can reach out in that way, in in you could say, in prayer, in meditation, in asking. Sometimes it is easier because we're given a sense of time. So maybe the answer doesn't come back immediately. And maybe we lean into that bit where we we can't quite see them, or we can't quite, you know, is it's a little bit unknown in there. And we know that actually that divine hand sometimes is doesn't always run to the same time frame as as we do. So there is something about expressing, but I do also see people even for for that is a big challenge. Even asking any for anything because of that disappointment factor is a big challenge. So for me, it's easier, but I don't know necessarily if I observe it being easier for everybody. If they can't ask what they need, sometimes it's pretty closed all over. I don't know what your opinion is. I'd be very interested to see more.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, I just I I I think it depends. I mean, it it depends. I just because I mean certainly with things like spirit guides and and angels for archangels, I think, is a very fun funny one. Um, people are like, oh no, I shouldn't call that in. You know, I'm not it there's a sort of less than. Um and I and and I must admit I feel I I'm I'm not 100% comfortable with that either. So there is a sort of sense of, you know, what is this relationship? You know, where am I in the relationship with whoever it is someone's talking about? But then with regards to I don't know if you go into more, I mean, say God or the Holy Spirit, Christ, Buddha, those kind of energies, I have absolutely zero problem um asking in that sphere. I'm reminded uh someone my old spiritual teacher reflected back to me. I had an incident in my late teens where I had a big conversation with death. I won't I won't go too much into the detail, but um and and it and and it was like bartering. I was bartering with death and saying, look, no, it's not my time, I've got to stay, kind of thing. Um and and he just he just he did he reflected back to me and goes, it's quite amazing, Oliver, that you you managed to have this great and very assertive conversation with death, but you struggle to ask for anything from your wife. And I was like, Yeah, that's a good point, isn't it? I think this is about like 15 years ago or wherever long it goes. So the the context is really, really interesting.
SPEAKER_01And maybe there's a very interesting sort of set of judgments that we come into, you know, that sometimes a divine hand, spirit, spirit, spirit guides, uh, you know, Christ, you know, the saints, um, you know, we're very good at asking for because we we feel that they might be more than us. And maybe they have more power or access to something that we don't. But do we see that as, you know, do we see that in the person? You know, do we see the other man in that in a in a group setting in a in a in a workshop or a group space to be able to ask for what we need? And maybe there's a big thing in there in looking at the divinity within. And maybe if we can see our divinity within, we can see it in other people. Because people do extraordinary things, you know. I've been, you know, I've this is very threefold world here. But this week I've needed to get a roofer on my mum's um on my mum's house. Now, please forgive me any roofers listening to this, but I don't understand what you do, and therefore I'm quite frightened of them. Or I'm quite nervous around people who I don't understand what their job is. You know, so I know what they do and they make they fix roofs, but you know that bit where they go, well, it's this and this and this. Um I'm standing there, I've got no clue what they've spoken Spanish to me, I would have understood more. But um, somebody said to me the other day, Well, uh look at this this way. Ring this person, uh, talk to the insurance company, blah. And they solved it in an instant because they used to houses. And then I rang this roofer, who turned up, it was the completely, completely charming, delightful man. And he's oh, I can do that, it's fine, not a problem. And but there was this thing in me that had sort of slightly, slightly demonized everybody because I didn't understand them enough. But actually, what I had done in that point is not sit, not allowed them to be have that divinity, have that helpfulness, have that compassion. I'd moved them somewhere else in my mind. And that that's just a nervousness, a lack of understanding. I, you know, I was happening to be very grown up this week and from Photo Builder, which uh hasn't always been my experience in my life. So, but often, you know, in asking for something, very practically in sitting there going, I've got to do this. I didn't actually even ask the person. Somebody went, Oh, do this, this, this, and this, do this, do that, bring that person. Yes, you're gonna be paying more for that because it's a good company, but da da da da. And they'd solve the whole thing. And I think sometimes we don't really allow that magic to come from other people. That was on a practical thing, but for me it was quite an emotional, emotional space it was coming from.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it is that fear, isn't it? It's it's uh yeah, yeah. And not knowing the fear of the unknown. Well, I don't know what to expect here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and also it's been fine. Right, yeah. Maybe if I thought of maybe if I'd asked Jesus, you know, I don't I'm I'm not I'm not sure we would have done your blessing. I don't mean this in a in a jovial way, too much in a disrespectful way, but did come from a very long line of carpenters, Jesus. But you know, so it probably wouldn't have been a bad person to ask, you know. But um, but you know, would I have felt more comfortable with that? Maybe though it doesn't feel as uh as sometimes as risky, but that divinity sometimes comes through all sorts of people, you know, it it it it does, you know. Often that you you see I see spirit often working through other people very, very strongly, and you know, I've had extraordinary um uh situations around those very life and death things in my mum's not terribly well at the moment, and she's had extraordinary care in some ways. I mean, extraordinary. And when she originally uh had a fall at you know, the end at the beginning of last year, she ended up with one of these great nurses that was coming in at home to see her, and everybody felt better. That that wonderful, and you just saw this is just lifting the room. There's something else, there is a divine hand on this, but still it's about asking, isn't it? And still, even on that spirit, Jesus, Buddha, God, consciousness, universe, whatever, it we it does require us to say what we need still.
SPEAKER_00So it brings us back to the same point of needs, yeah, and trust and surrender, yeah, and courage, I think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. But it's still very hard to see the the magic of life if we don't know what we need, because how do we know that our needs are being met if we don't know what we need ourselves? So it is it is that bit where it's actually terribly important to kind of go, this is what I need, uh, and this is what I'm gonna see if I can ask for, but to be really clear with what we need in life in ourselves, because then we can see where that those opportunities are. If that makes sense, you know, it's uh if we can only respond. We can only see if it's being met if we know we need it. And sometimes it's lovely to know your needs are met before you even know you need them yourself. But but you know, quite often it is about really asking and being authentic and being brave.
SPEAKER_00And and there's something, and I I love the idea of of you know looking for that as an opportunity and with excitement. You have been listening to Veils to the Soul, Masculinity and Spirituality with Gary Wright and Oliver Baum. For more information on the work of Gary Wright, please visit www.therightmedium.co.uk And for Oliver, www.olliverbaum.co.uk Produced and edited by Oliver Baum with additional editing and music by Felix. Thank you for listening.
