Veils to the Soul
Season 2 ... Masculinity and Spirituality. An exploration into the current state of the Masculine in Therapy and Spirituality.
Season 1 ... Birthing Spirit in the Modern World. An exploration of what's between us and our Souls' birth, and how the Modern World resists that birth, but needs it - if it's to survive and thrive!
Veils to the Soul
7. Emotional Maturity
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Gary and Oliver have a rather lovely and expansive conversation about Emotional Maturity and what it looks like in a Spiritual Environment.
Thanks for listening!
Find out more:
For Oliver's Psycho-Spiritual work with Individuals, Couples and Groups, please visit www.oliverbaum.co.uk.
For more information on Gary's work www.thewrightmedium.co.uk
Veils to the Soul, Spirituality and Masculinity with Oliver Baume and Gary Wright. And today we're going to be talking about emotional maturity. And as I've been pondering this as the week's gone on, I seem to have created a list. So I'm wondering whether maturity and lists have some relation. Probably not. But anyway, it did kind of amuse me that that is what came up. And there's just the different realms and spheres that emotional maturity or immaturity plays out, you know, whether it's in relationship with ourselves, in relationship to others, specifically in what we're talking about, how it might be different between men in a men's group setting as well as in therapeutic settings and spiritual setting. You know, what does emotional maturity in our relationship to the divine look like? In relationship to our spiritual practices? What does that look like? And what might kind of get in the way? Something that popped up as I was walking the dog this morning was was to do with narratives. And how you know we have a tendency to create narratives, you know, with story-building beings, some would argue. But we also sort of have a tendency to be to sort of die on a hill in defense of those narratives. You know, we build a narrative of what someone or, you know, I mean, different members of say my family will have a narrative about what Oliver looks like and how he is, which may or may not be true. But they will often, I mean, I'm not just talking about my family, but people will often defend that narrative or get everything to sort of fit into that. Um almost to feel sort of good about themselves, right, um the nice one, you know, whatever that narrative is about themselves, rather than actually anything to do with the other person. And I was just wondering about sort of the relationship between stories and the narratives that we create and emotional maturity. And there's something for me anyway about being able to hold those stories really lightly as a sign of emotional maturity and you know, where being right is is kind of secondary to feeling connected.
SPEAKER_02You make some very good points there, didn't you? As part of me that wants to immediately say, is being right secondary? Because I'm somebody who kind of can be very much being right needs to be primary, which is of course not very emotionally mature. Um, but I do recognize it myself. Sometimes that moment of thinking, right, I've got an argument, and it's uh, you know, or I've got uh, you know, something to say, and that thing of winning, having to win it, not expressing it. I I'm a great one for expressing whatever one feels in in a kind of you know sense of mature way, but I think people should be able to say what's happening, and men should be able to say what's happening, and we try and encourage men to talk about what their inner world is. But sometimes it is just about expressing it rather than thinking I've got to get the other person to think the way I am, I want to, or it's gotta change something, or it's gotta mean something, rather than actually this is just what I need to say. And I think if you can be heard, for me very very much, if you can be heard, it actually makes a tremendous difference. I'm quite old, I can cope with the word no, but there is still that little part of me that thinks, oh, you know, I've just I I need the last word. I've it's got better m over the years, but especially when I was young, enough in to kind of make sure that the other person's argument was ripped to shreds. Something I I quite I can't say I enjoyed well, I did enjoy doing it, I think, caption, if I'll be unhonous. I think I really it mattered at that point. Matters less now as I've got older to feel that somebody has taken on my points of view. It matters more just to be able to express them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I must be able to I went through a phase where I was the king of Socratic questioning. I could pretty much shred any argument that someone else had. Um and I and I did, if I'm honest with myself, enjoy myself doing it. There was something quite um, yeah, okay, you're gonna try and do this to me. Well, here you go, have a have a bit of this. Uh again, not particularly emotionally mature. Um, and in that space, no one hears the other. It's not about, it's about winning rather than actually hearing. And and you're right, that that the importance of not only hearing, but feeling heard in the truest sense is um with some, you know, particularly when someone could be present. So sort of say if I'm with clients, uh, you know, if I'm in a really good day, there's not a story, ooh, they've said that, so I can say this going on. It's just I'm totally present with where they are. And any any any sort of conversation that arises from that is purely spontaneous. It's not there's no sort of mental sort of planning going on in the process.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Yeah, it's interesting that point. Um it's funny working as a medium, really. I'm just sort of thinking, you yes, it's about being right and accurate, you want to be accurate, but it has to not be about you. It has just to be about the sitter and what's being communicated to them via whatever realm we're working with. So you have to put all of that down. And um it's very it's very interesting. You have to really get out of the way of yourself because you you hear stories that may apply to you, you hear things that you have out of your living knowledge, you have no experience, so it can't be based on what you're drawing, it has to be based on what you're being given or what you're being asked to convey. So it's a great one, really, at being very emotionally mature and not and be but being present, but with other people's you know, what they need, not what you need. So it's changed the way I approach situations, you know, really quite dramatically, actually. That if I can bring that holding that presence in, I can really hear somebody, even if it's something that's not terribly comfortable for me. Um, can't say I do it all the time, but it really is available. I know it's available now to do something different.
SPEAKER_00Um, particularly, I think, in mediumship, it is very different, isn't it? Because I I can sit there as a as a therapist, psychotherapist, and you know, quite happily get things wrong, and it just opens new lines of inquiry up, and that's absolutely fine. But where you know a good medium is judged on their accuracy ultimately, and their ability to be right, and and the holding that line without it tipping into, well, I think you I've got your mother here. Uh no, that doesn't sound like my mother. No, no, it is your mother, the kind of thing, where it sort of becomes a battle of wills kind of thing. Um, it's it's hard, it's a hard line to to um to walk.
SPEAKER_02And when I'm teaching, I've said to many a student, and I've seen many a professional medium do it, and I've just sat there and you kind of just think, oh no, please don't. It's where somebody's saying, No, this definitely is your mother, and somebody's going, no, it isn't. And you're thinking, you've just told that person who's known their mother longer than you that you have a better take on their mother than they do. I mean, it's just it gets embarrassing. But you know, you have to be, but you that's also the emotional maturity in that world for me, that you have to be able to say, it's not it's not working today. I'm not the right person for you. It doesn't happen often to me, touchwood, but I have you know had to say to people, I know I'm not the right person. Somebody tried to book with me, private booking, it wasn't through one of the many places I work. And I just knew he wasn't the right person. I just I said, I absolutely know I'm not the right person for you. I'm really sorry. But here's a list of of people, and I'm gonna put them in order of the people I think are the right person. And um he didn't uh he didn't like it terribly much initially, but he actually wrote to me afterwards and said, Yes, you're totally right. I really could see that that what needed to come out would have been better if it was coming from a woman. And that wasn't what I was given. I just knew it wasn't it wasn't right for me to kind of do that, you know. But sometimes you just have to know when to step out of things and know when they're working. And that really for me is quite a sign of immaturity. I can be quite mature professionally sometimes personally. It's harder to do. You know, it's it's those personal moments where one feels misunderstood or affronted or something. Um that uh the those are the moments I can really uh or have in the past, really get my narrative out of right, I'm going in for the winning. No, but you know, the battlefield will be strewn with bodies by the time I finish saying what I need to say. And often that was the um was the starting point. It isn't now for me, but much when I was younger, that angry young man thing that often young men get accused of, but I definitely had. Probably on a righteousness moment of you know social justice or something. It wasn't always just that I was just being a complete idiot. It was often about wanting to make something better, but it didn't really take the room with me. It did say to the room, you are the problem.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's interesting because that activist type energy, it can be quite sort of in the chest, and not grounded. And and as soon as you do ground it, you know, someone who might have a really strongly held belief about whatever it might be, all of a sudden it changes and they can see the other side as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and yeah, yeah. Yeah, I always find that quite interesting. For some reason, I've had quite a few activists as clients over the years, um, and which has always surprised me, but I always actually quite enjoy working with them.
SPEAKER_02It's a great archetype to be, yeah. It really is fantastic, but it has to be it has to be very it has to be held in a very strong maturity and an emotional maturity. It has to things, otherwise, it shatters everything. I'm very aware, I mean, I'm I'm not an astrologer, but I do use one annually. Um, and so any astrologers listening, if I if I butcher this, apologies. Um, but I have Pluto in the 11th house. Well, the 11th house is all to do with institutes and groups and structures, and Pluto's the energy that you know, it's the underworld energy, it brings up all those things that maybe people don't want to see. So put me in a group, I'm quite um, even if I'm not saying something, I I generate a change. And I have to be very careful, actually. Now, if you're in a group that I'm running, amazing things happen to people. I mean, people get married, they write the book they've never been able to write, they you know, get the job, then they move into the house that you know was the dream. You know, amazing things happen to people in groups I'm running running. But if I go into an existing group, even if I'm not saying something, changes start to manifest. And that sometimes is quite tricky. And I do say to the astrologer use, who's actually quite a good friend now. Um, I say, yes, I've just blown up another group, and oh god, another one. And it's not that I mean to blow them up, it's that the design, you know, naturally there's something in my astrology that blends that and brings that about. So groups for me and and things can be quite a challenge.
SPEAKER_00It's interesting that, because that's because you get again, you get different types, you get people who just blow things up for the sake of blowing things up. And that's not what you're describing at all.
SPEAKER_02It's more No, I'm not actually one of them. No, because often groups I value, and I and then I end up thinking it all fell apart.
SPEAKER_00But what you're what you're doing is you're bringing an element of truth and and and maybe a sense that um you know, maybe there was something about those groups that needed to end. Yeah. And that to I it's interesting to be that sort of a person to go into the groups knowing that that there's a potential for that to happen and still show up. I mean, I'd imagine that's quite difficult. I mean, that does take emotional maturity to do that well.
SPEAKER_02It's an interesting one because something happened last year where I very much needed to go to something for me. And I quite like because I hold lots of groups and I run lots of groups, going to a group for me is I mean, really luxury. I mean, I love it. I'm like, oh I'm in this group and it's marvelous. And uh something happened quite quickly, um, and it wasn't anything I'd said I had I I could in hindsight I might have said something quicker actually, which might have helped the situation, but I didn't really. Um and the whole thing fell apart, and it very much fell apart for me. And it is the only time I've been away where I've packed a bag thinking right actually I just need to be able to get up and turn around. And thankfully, I'm not a driver because I would have been gone. And we were in the middle of nowhere, so I couldn't I needed other people to facilitate that situation for me. Um, so I did stay. Um, but it it was that very much that Pluto in the 11th house energy, which was interesting. I just observed in myself, and I just thought, well, what actually do I need through this? So the whole thing became about when this is happening to me, what do I need? What how do I resource myself? Because unfortunately, when those things happen, quite often you've lost the group. Um and it's an interesting um, it's an interesting situation to find yourself in. Um quite a lot personally kind of really shifted for me, but I can't say it was pleasant. I didn't, you know, now I look and think, oh actually that was really, really valuable, but and of course nobody's really talking to me. Nobody in that group kind of wanted to say anything, but it wasn't for what I said, it was just that I was just sitting there, it was quite um odd. Yeah. And it's hard not to label yourself, come to a group I run and be amazing. Don't take it, don't go to a group that would let me in it. It could be complicated.
SPEAKER_00So I'm just yeah, I'm just feeling into the energy of that. And it I does I'm sorry, Gary, I hope you don't mind me saying it like this, but I I get a sense of you slightly on the outside then after what that happened. Oh yes, and it's I mean it it's a difficult place. It is, I mean it's a it's a good place to hold, um, as in it's from a maturity point of view. It takes maturity to hold that space. It does, and it takes courage. Um and it's difficult. It's difficult. I mean, there's that that sense of having to hold potentially guilt, you know, the longing, the loneliness. I remember it was it, I think Judith Hemming saying about um family constellations facilitators that they needed to be able to hold a good one, needed to be able to hold a certain amount of guilt and loneliness. Um and to be okay in that space. So you don't then go in and try and comply with whatever the group think might be or or or just you know be a people pleaser or whatever.
SPEAKER_02No, it was an interesting um situation. I don't tend to do I I don't tend to do guilt. Somebody said to me very early on um do not uh do never respond. It was in a in a it was about playing a character um or dancing a character, and they said, do not respond in any way from fear, obligation, or guilt. Fog, don't do fog, don't make the character foggy. Don't, you know, fear, obligation, or guilt, don't do any of those. So quite a young age, I've learned how not to operate in life on any of those in any of those, which you know also sometimes makes makes me a bit of a challenge for some people. But um yes, it it it but so I don't often know that one, but I do know the being the outsider, being the one that looks in and goes, okay. Could have been different because it and that very much happened to me this week uh on that um that week. Um I had a room of my own, so I had space. Um I often found myself eating alone. They had a table of silence, and I thought that would do. Um, because I knew I wasn't gonna go in and say to say to everybody how I was treated was okay, because it wasn't. I wasn't gonna let anybody off the hook. Um, but I wasn't gonna go actively hunting for to bring people down. I just thought actually just sit with this and see what it is. But it but yeah, the outsider energy is one I know very, very strongly. Also being a single child, one learns how to kind of be with oneself anyway. Or I did. Yeah, there's a lot going on on those things when those emotional maturity is called for, but maybe it's not called for in a situation that you that you'd really love to put yourself in.
SPEAKER_00That's that's interesting because it's slightly okay. I mean, someone who is very familiar with fear, obligation, and guilt. Um, and there's a very there's a difference. The other outsiders in a group might, you know, for example, the scapegoat archetypes they they very much feel on the outside, and and I suppose sometimes I've put my I've I've been in that space. But the difference is that very much is a space of fear, obligation, and guilt, um, particularly guilt. I can ruminate on things till the cows come home, um, which is more that it's helpful to a point, um, but then will will often flip in on itself. Whereas the sort of energy you're speaking of, you very much, you know, you are holding a mirror up to the group, but without the fear or favor, it's just there.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and it is it is very tricky because the scapegoat energy is is tricky to hold anyway, because I mean I don't know if people know the story of the scapegoat, but if they don't, they're getting it now. You know, uh in villages, you know. They had two goats at certain times and one one was eaten and celebrated, and and the sins and the you know, say sins, but the the misspeaks, the wrongdoings, the wish we'd done it betters, all got whispered into the ear of the other um other goat, and the other goat was driven out of the village. And um that was the escapegoat, you know, the the the the negativity escaped the village and it was a reset. So the scapegoat is always something to be driven out, but it is an interesting one to to not operate from a point of view of of guilt, and it's not something that people find very easy if you really consciously don't step into it, because it makes you very, very hard to control. Um so somebody said to me once, You're so difficult. And I said, I'm just not doing what you want me to do. I'm just saying that it doesn't suit. And I actually was not being difficult, I was just saying this is what I need, and this is what I think is better. And they just wanted me to, it was so important for them that I did this. Actually, it really didn't, but it wasn't gonna bring a lot of value to anything, really. And she immediately found it was being I was. Difficult rather than just having somebody having a different opinion.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's there's there's definitely something in this about the the capacity to hold space for the other. You know, whether you're in agreement or not. Um but the the scapegoat story, the what popped into my mind then, what would you rather be the one who's eaten, you know, consumed by the tribe, as it were, and that loses all sense of identity because of that, or the one that's leaves and is arguably then freer to shed whatever they're carrying and become more truly themselves.
SPEAKER_02And it is the isn't you use an important word there, does that you know, does that go shed it? Because it's seen as carrying them for the rest of its life, so the other people don't have to carry it. But if you're in those situations, you have to shed it because you have to kind of, you know, it's difficult one sometimes to sit there and go, Well, that's really about them. It's not about me. But I've said it because the alternative is that you have to then compromise on your value system, or you have to compromise on yourself, and for me that's harder to sit with than being the scapegoat in a group. To be inauthentic in myself, I find very, very hard to do. Very hard to do. I can't, I can't I can I can say what people want me to say, and you know, just for polite society to keep it ticking along. But you know, if somebody really says to me, What do you think, and they really want to know, then I do have I can't but I can't just say nicetists. I admire those people in some ways that can come out and play the room in the way that play the game in a way, the the way, but that's never been the I've never been able to do that. And in many ways, you know, people say to me, You should do this, and I, you know, my argument is I don't use this, but my argument often is in my head. But my spirits are telling me to do something different. You know, so the medium, the shaman, those kind of energies are always slightly on the edge anyway. They're difficult people to difficult people to manage.
SPEAKER_00I mean, yeah, because the the shamans are outside the village and I mean witches buried just outside the acre and all the rest of it. You know, the base on the outside. Yeah. I mean the the other the other sort of story is the Omega Wolf, which I I find quite interesting as well, uh, who's like the the scapegoat of the tr of the pack, and every they're sort of these wizened, often wizened looking wolves that all the other wolves take out the aggro of the of the pack on. And then they get to a point where it's they have a they've had enough, uh, and they snap, and they'll either at that point leave um or they'll fight back. And I remember seeing a YouTube video of an of an Omega Wolf just snapping and going back at all the other wolves that were taking it out on them, and they just froze, totally and utterly froze, and didn't know what to do.
SPEAKER_02It's not it's not energetically expected.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Um but traditionally the Omega Wolf would then leave, become the lone wolf, and then find a mate and become the alpha of a new pack. So there's kind of a sort of process in that as well.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and it brings you know, it sometimes brought me, I mean, you know, to to men's groups and men's work of when it hasn't worked for me, or that that story of, you know, the change that I haven't even sometimes mentioned starts happening, but it doesn't, but it it you know, nobody's really ready for that change as well, so it all gets fought against in this has led me many times to sit there and kind of go, Well, if I don't like the groups I'm going to, or they're not working for me, start your own. I haven't, but you know. But that's that's that cycle, isn't it, of you know, leaving a pack, starting again and becoming, you know, running something, you know, is in that story of the wolf, really.
SPEAKER_00What gets in the way, do you think, of that? I mean, I think there is a there's a definitely a timing thing about this.
SPEAKER_02So it's quite easy to do.
SPEAKER_00Starting a group of my own. Yeah, I mean, with whether you want to answer that personally or just more generally.
SPEAKER_02Well, at the moment, it's it's but there's kind of family challenges around me, so I can't take anything else on. And two, um, it's purely time, but but is is the external. But of course, there is always an internal restriction, you know. Play this very much in in you know, plays and things, you know, there's the external restrictions that define somebody, and there's the internal restrictions. Well, my external restrictions at the moment is really time. My internal ones is that part where you think, huh, have I just got uh have I just got what it takes to run a different kind of group? You know, that's the internal bit. So actually, you could call it fear, you could call it um lack of confidence, you could call it could call it a lot of things or whatever. But um I admire the people who who set up groups and run them and if it's successful, you know, even if I don't agree with them, I can't I can't not admire them. Um, especially men's groups, because I think they're hard, they're quite hard to run. But um I think what stops me at the moment is that thing of, well, what have I got to say that's different, really? So when you asked me to do this, I thought, oh, that's interesting, because that gives me a it's create, you know, I'm really enjoying it. It's creating something interesting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I agree totally. I'm really enjoying it as well. Yeah, I'm I'm torn between two two things. Sort of the story of the first men men's group I ever ran, or the biggest empty chair experiment ever. It became known. Um yeah, but no, it was it was I mean, I wasn't ready to do it. It was this is what gosh, probably it was certainly over a decade ago. Um, so it was relatively green and I and I did everything but except the marketing particularly. Um, and had this group, but I committed to 10 weeks of renting this hall to do the group, and I just thought sod it and and just set it up as if there were people. So I did 10 chairs and I literally ran the group um, you know, a couple of hours each evening that it was meant to run for 10 weeks following the themes that I'd laid out. And I sort of represented um all the different parts, all the different people that were there in the group, um, which if anybody had seen would have looked utterly insane. Um, but actually as an experience was really, really enlivening and probably helped, um, in fact, definitely helped me prepare myself better for running groups in the future um for when I was ready. So there's that, there's that sort of readiness and willingness to commit in that. But there's also there is something about sort of timing, and I almost want to say divine timing, and our relationship to the bigger picture. So there's something about being able to trust. So, you know, something is going on in a group if it's in a group setting, um, and just being able to hold the space for knowing, okay, I may not know what this is. Um, but something is happening, and I can trust that it will happen in whichever way it's supposed to.
SPEAKER_02And it is about that trust sometimes to think, okay, things are coming. Somebody said to me the other day, well, you've done more, you've been in more men's groups and men's work and things than anybody else I know. So you're prime to kind of know what doesn't work. And maybe I've collected those stories to know what works and what doesn't work over the years. Or what not what works and what doesn't work for me necessarily, because I'm funny enough, the scapegoat energy in a group is an interesting one. You know, and I do, I I don't try and create this energy in myself, but it it it always seems to happen. But when other people feel the edges of that scapegoat, or they're not sure whether they they're struggling with the group, it's often me that they can speak to. So I might not be agree, you know, I might not be one of the ones that are in the middle, but I might be the ones that you know people seek out and just go, can I just can I just have this conversation with you? Because they can't really have it with the main group or anybody else. And maybe I should encourage them to have it with the main group, but there's no point because I know they won't. So I've often heard what's not working and and is working for people in and around men's work, and that's been quite an interesting uh gathering of information for me in a way. It's been quite and really it's often the real mature conversations that are rushed through, really. So the emotional maturity, often from what people have said to me, funnily enough, isn't what they don't have enough space for it, they're not given enough space for it. It's and you know, as I do, you're running a group, you've got to take the group and it's gotta move on. But it's that part where um uh you've got to be able to if you're if something's happening, it can't be shoved into 15 minutes, maybe it needs an hour. And quite often things are jam-packed. Or they're created so natural relationships are not necessarily allowed to form easily. You know, you're given a group to go and talk, you know, you go and talk about this in your small group, so you don't have to be into the big group, or go and talk to this with your buddy. But quite often they're quite contrived relationships because they're not they haven't happened naturally. And I don't know how you create that in a men's group quickly or naturally, or in a retreat quickly or naturally, you can only give it the shape it either happens or it doesn't happen.
SPEAKER_00I'm wondering if uh men have a bit of an aversion to that generally. I mean, I'm remembering the very first group process weekend I did, um, and I was, I mean, it was mixed, and I was and I was well, I say mixed, I was the only man there. Um, and and everybody was finding their feet, and there was a lot of people sort of doing what they thought they should be doing, which was basically sort of wallowing in emotion, and that's my judgment, don't get me wrong. And I found it ridiculously uncomfortable, like to the point that I stood up and went, what the fuck are we doing? Why are we wallowing in in all of this? It's gonna get us nowhere and walked out. Um, and for me to re that's very uncharacteristic of me to react that strongly obviously hit something very, very deep inside of me. Um and I do think there's that sense of of staying in those softer spaces. Um, I don't think it's that was just a me thing. I think that the I think men generally find that harder. Um you know, to see the process out without mo without necessarily having the movement and the getting to a goal or you know, a a target of some shape or form. Um and I just wonder if that does get in the way of that deepening.
SPEAKER_02I think it does. I think it can do. I think it it's often uh I I I think lots of men, especially if if you're going to go to a men's group or you're going to go to a men's retreat, you are quite, you know, people might often go thinking they're very broken or damaged or in lack of something. But to even put yourself in a group like that does show that you have a certain amount of bravery and a certain amount of kind of resilience and a certain amount of emotional maturity. And I often find that, you know, the people who turn up have done quite a bit of work on themselves, you see. So they know roughly what they are. There's a possibly they would might argue they've got a limit or they've hit an edge or something. But often men who put themselves in in groups like that don't then like being kind of put into another kind of you must now do this space. So it's hard, and this is, I think, why I've never decided to run a group. It's hard to hold a space for people to be very authentic, but to give people a structure. And that's you know, you're not saying of just uttering thoughts here, but you're saying, you know, why I've never done one. I think it's probably that, it's that part where how do you say, right, now we're going, now you're going to sit down for half an hour and do active listening and or an active sharing, you know, and and all that. And I just it's part of me that just goes, Oh god, here we go. And I see lots of other people kind of inwardly or hear them groan, or they come and tell me, oh, my group's a nightmare. Um, and so there's that part where actually holding something, holding a container well and holding it too tightly, I think is a very, very interesting balance to try and strike.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's a definite art form to that, isn't it? And I do think it is an art to hold people through a process on a whether it's on a retreat or a group process. Um I often like an a sort of a group or a day uh retreat um to sort of a U. So that the day would take them through a U, and you know, around lunchtime will be at the bottom of the U, and then sort of come back up in the afternoon to sort of uh launch them back into the world. Um and yeah, I'm just you know imagining holding space for the people who are there on the day and being having that awareness of everything that's going on, and also you're right, not being rigid, allowing space for people to do whatever it is they need to do while still maintaining a structure.
SPEAKER_02It's a very it's a very, very interesting one, actually, that journey through something. And um it's an interesting one. And I was in this, I was in, I've only ever seen it done. Well, maybe an as I say something if anybody's listening that I ever was in a group with. I've only ever seen it done well once, actually. Through consistently through a kind of four-day retreat. It was incredible this this man running this space. He never gave he never locked anybody in. He never actively didn't hear what people were saying, he never let anybody's story take over, so the group suffered. It was really, really interestingly held. It was the most, it was like watching somebody paint a picture. Just thought this is incredible. And it the only thing I challenge I had with it is that I had to kind of stay with what was actually happening and what I was being asked of, and not sit there thinking, actually, you're remarkable. Um, because it was a very complicated um person in this group, a very complicated man in this group, that sort of could have it could have totally derailed itself. And um it really didn't. And it was tightly held, but you never felt that tightness. And that's uh the art form that I think when you know that would be my if somebody said what describe emotional maturity to you know, I would have to say to hold something tightly and safely, but to give it ultimate kind of flexibility. I suppose there's emotional maturity that resides within men, is what often men in society are asked to do, which is to create something outer, create a very strong, you know, to create a new project, or there's got to be something else, or they've got to build something, there's got to be a very definite end result. And is the emotional maturity that's required for really working spiritually, you know, working with masculinity and spirituality, is it is what we're really being asked to do to drop the end result?
SPEAKER_00I mean, that certainly opens another layer up. I mean, from spiritually, as I'm feeling, I'm like my third eye just opened as as you were saying that, and there's a lightness to it and uh um an enlightenedness to it. Because the tendency to do those traditional sort of male inverted commas, you know, the goal-oriented, work-oriented, outwardly orientated things does has a tendency to then put people in that fog space, you know, fear, obligation, and um whatever the genius guilt. Good, I'm glad I forgot. There we go. I think I'll take that as progress. Um there's a heaviness to it, there's a desperate, I can you know, if you really feel into it extreme, there's almost like a desperateness to it. And that that that sort of fear-driven forcing, willing things into existence and you know, driving through, come what may, as opposed to sort of allowing and being open to receive, which I suppose traditionally would have been considered more sort of feminine.
SPEAKER_02Yes, in traditional. I mean, uh, it was very interesting. I saw a man once in a group who s decided to stay and said I'm not leaving this group, but I'm saying something. You lot could be asked, and it wasn't me who said this, just so you know, you lot could be asked to do anything, you do it. And I can't respect any of you because none of you challenge anything that's given to you. Wow, none of you even say what's the point of doing this, what's the end result? And he it was very, very, very interesting. I mean, I was terribly young at the time, so um, I think this is one of the first groups I was ever in. But he said you could be asked anything, and you'd go, Oh, yeah, okay, we're doing a men's group. Yeah, it's got to be it's got to be a bit uncomfortable. Why? And he he said, until people can tell me the why, I'm not doing anything, but I'm not leaving. You can all ask me to leave and I'll go, but I'm not saying I'm bailing out, but uh what I'm saying is I can't find the respect for you all because I feel like I'm in a field of sheep.
SPEAKER_00That's seriously powerful. Yeah. Well, just curiously, what happened to everybody in the group? I can imagine the sort of jaws dropped quite spectacularly.
SPEAKER_02Well, they all they all turned on him.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's a shame.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it really was a shame. They all turned on him like, no, we're not, no, we you just don't get it. They all just they all went into defense. So if but what it did is it the group then completely fell apart because it then divided up. And I could I watched it divide in a way. The um the theatre person in me was fascinated by that person, and had that person, and that person the following week had rung up that person, and that person had done that, and that person had done this, and this person had had that conversation. All behind but nobody had a conversation with the group. He'd been the only person who tried to have a conversation with the group, and then everybody went to have a conversation about him.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and the the gossip and the talking behind people's backs and triangulation and all the rest of it. I mean, that is a sure sign of emotional immaturity, I would say.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and so it was a very interesting point of but it you know it comes back to that point, and this was, I think, the point also he couldn't answer, really, in some ways, which wasn't a limit in him, he just needed to be able to work through it. Of how do you have a vision for something with great flexibility? Yeah, and how do you go through the next bit if it's if you don't quite know why you're doing it? And does that work?
SPEAKER_00I I I mean, I don't know about you, but certainly the the the thresholds I can think of that I've I've been through in my life, certainly the really important ones, have all involved me pushing uh uh sort of jumping into the unknown in in some way, shape, or form. It's very rare that really big change happens when you know what's coming next. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02It's a point of surrender, isn't it? I mean, I I think I've mentioned that in many of many of one of these. But the point of surrender to kind of go, I've got to kind of let go of a complete outcome, but that doesn't mean no vision. Yeah, yeah. You know, how we get there is unknown, but I'm still getting there, but I'm gonna hold the rest of it flexibly. Whether that's kind of marketable and sellable and encourages people to come. And un is is unknown really. But most of the men's retreats I've been on, you know, I've blindly gone along. I haven't got a clue what's happening next day, or the day after, or the day after that, because you're never told, are you? Those initiatory kind of groups that are out there. And lots of people go. So there's probably a probably a willingness in men to surrender and a maturity in them to surrender.
SPEAKER_00It's interesting. I'm not feeling that. So the the as in that willingness to surrender into maybe I'm talking more generally rather than specifically those groups. There does seem to be a very maybe I'm being unfair here, a very small proportion of men willing to do these kind of things, particularly in the spiritual practice. And really need that sort of cognitive reassurance almost before and then maybe they'll surrender and relax into it a bit more.
SPEAKER_02You make a very well said, well said. It's interesting, isn't it? Because I mean I've had to write group, uh write courses and groups and things, and you're all you know, you've always and as a teacher, you've always got to give your you know your teaching aims, and then that gets slotted into some kind of that goes through marketing, and then they slot that into something else, really. But there is that point, isn't it, really, where there is a kind of slightly unknown point. And I think the difficult thing with a lot of men and why men get very wounded around working with men's groups and retreats and things, why sometimes it doesn't work for them is ultimately long term, is that they're played the promise. And I don't think you can ever play the promise that a group or a situation is gonna get you somewhere. It'll get you it will get you someplace somehow, by hook or by crook, somehow. But um, you know, that this will be, you know, you will plug yourself into a group of men who've done this and done that, and this will happen, and that'll happen, and this will be brilliant, and this will be that, and that'll be good, and one but hey. Um, and that's an interesting one that everybody's experience is going to be very different. So, you know, you take 25 people, 27 people, or something, you're gonna have you know 27 different experiences, and as often said on that in that jokey way, you know, give ask 27 men what they think, you'll get 20 28 opinions. But um, but it is that thing of you know, the promise is this, and maybe you know, for really mature men's work, actually, it is about not offering the promise, but getting men to promise something to themselves. What are they gonna promise to themselves to work on, to do, yeah, to explore. What are you gonna promise to yourself? Oh, that's powerful. And quite often it's about quite often what people are talking about in men's group is about purpose. But purpose is the is the archetype that goes outward, isn't it, and says, I'm gonna do this. This is what I'm gonna do for the world, or how I'm gonna be in the world. But actually, what what's what's the journey of the promise within?
SPEAKER_00I mean, uh I'm reminded of sort of um Jung's work, the the idea of the individuated man having to really sort of integrate their their feminine, their inner feminine, the animus, in order to become a real man, is sort of an emotionally mature man. And that's kind of what we're talking about, the these you know, letting go of goals, letting go of of the the purpose-driven, you know, phallic um driven penetrating forces, and allowing that softness without losing touch of the vision that and other elements as well. I mean, I suppose it's just it's it's holding things in in right relationship with each other.
SPEAKER_02Because almost to promise something to yourself is a penetrating force within.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02But to allow that to surrender and discover what the journey is without, you know, or in the world, or in relationship to others, is possibly that flexibility and compassion towards oneself that is very much light feminine. But maybe the promise to oneself is very much dark masculine, you know, I'm gonna commit to you know, going through this in a very kind of direct way. So it is interesting, you know, these those first thing of uh archetypes that we spoke about all appear in this point thing of emotional maturity in the end. They'll come back up, jostling for their place.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And it is about holding sp holding space for them all and I suppose almost being able to dance between them i i in an authentic way. And maybe even in an appropriate way, given depending on the circumstances.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's an interesting, it's an interesting um shape the emotional maturity, because we're we're often thinking that we have to take it out, but it kind of is about we've got to be emotionally mature towards ourselves first, I think. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And again, it's coming back to the you know, holding space for our hearts, which is I think that was how you worded it, which it is lovely. Yeah. And being able to do that. Just just out of curiosity, if I I just sort of pivots a little bit. Um emotional maturity in relation to spiritual practice.
SPEAKER_02I was thinking about this this morning, actually. Yeah. I was thinking about this this morning, probably because I knew we were doing this. It is about again, isn't it? Because you can't say what do you want from your spiritual practice because it's gotta it's a journey in a way, you've got to discover that. But it does, I think the emotional maturity I've I feel that I when I I look and I'm thinking, do I want to do this? Do I want to do that? And I'm quite uh experience-led person. I like to kind of think, what am I gonna do this summer? What's my kind of month of kind of, you know, it's not that I just do work on myself once a month, or once a year, you know, for once a month, but I do sometimes have more time in the summer just to go and do some things. So when I'm looking, I think, well, actually, what kind of experience do I have? Um, but that emotional maturity is about discerning that you're never really, you've always there's always more to do for me. I always sit there and think, actually, what's the well, how can I go deeper? What can I do? Where am I going? What's the what's the aim? What do I want? But it's hard to not get into the wants and needs with it with spirituality, because you can't really, you have to just there's that sort of surrender is in there, but you do have to often look, if you're looking to put yourself in a space or put yourself in a situation to really work on that, what does it look like? So I was thinking that, and I was thinking the way I I sort of then do it, and I thought actually, you can't really put it into a month, it doesn't really work, you know. I mean, obviously, I work on myself throughout the year and you know, a conscious of that, but you have to be able to really again on that maturity hold yourself through a different kind of wisdom. And when I say a different kind of wisdom, I can only talk about it from my point of view, often because of what the work I do, a different kind of message, wisdom, insight is often offered to me daily in a way, and then how does that change me, or how do I function with that? And what do I want to do with what I've been given? So often I think it the maturity for me is about going, what do I want to do with that bit? Do I just want to let it percolate, or does it need more investigation? Does it need more conscious carrying, or can it just be left there to do its own thing?
SPEAKER_00You see, this is a tendency um in sort of the the therapy world or psychotherapy and counseling world, where um, you know, oh this is mirroring something to me, and everything has to be my responsibility fundamentally. But part of this discernment, and and don't get me wrong, there's a massive amount of value in that. Um, but part of the discernment, and I think that this comes a bit later on, and part of the maturity is being able to say, no, actually, this is their stuff. Um, it's not all about me kind of thing. And being able to discern our ways through that. And and ditto Ditto, I mean, I wonder if that's true with the spirit, I mean with the spiritual marketplace, with sort of, you know, with being sold things left, right, and center and discerning our ways for, you know, do I want to do this, that, or the other? And, you know, being, you know, come on this retreat and you'll be enlightened by the end of the weekend kind of thing. I'm just yeah, I'm just feeling into the difference between just going, right, I'm done. And I remember right at the beginning, you know, doing trainings and and whatever, and just right at the end of this weekend I'll be done. I'll be sorted. You know, everything will be fine. And sort of, you know, nearly 20 years later, I'm not sure that's true. Um and and that's okay. It but again, it goes back to it becoming more, I mean it's a bit of a cliche, becoming more about the journey than the destination. And maybe there isn't an emotional maturity in realizing that it is about the process, rather than just that sort of scrabbling for attainment or stra scrabling to let go, fix yourself or whatever it might be.
SPEAKER_02And not assuming that those things happen because you've put yourself on a week and you paid for it. What do you mean, Gary? I know it's awful, yeah, isn't it? You know, when we're doing we're we're we're you know in that industry in a way. But the real maturity is is it available when we're washing up? Does my life benefit from having a conversation in Tesco's with somebody? Or other well-known brands of supermarkets are available, but you know, I mean, uh it that part can you might ring the bell of something you want to discover in a group or a or a course or a workshop or a retreat, but maybe that piece comes together in a very, very unusual or very natural setting, you know, or sometimes it's a word or a couple of words that somebody says to you, and you think, oh, that really hits. And I think the emotional maturity, if it's really present with spirituality, will grab that moment, will see that moment, you know, we'll be able to explore that moment, you know, that somebody just says to you very casually, very naturally, that you the answers what you've been looking for.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, I I think of one particular moment when I was at at university, um, and there's this girl who was, I think she was in sort of fourth year while I was in the first year, and I'd just had my hair cut. I had quite long hair and had that trimmed off, and she came up to me, and I hadn't spoken to before, and she was absolutely gorgeous, like fancy little rod. And um, and she just said, she just tapped me on the shoulder and she just said, you know, you're not one of them. And then I never saw her again. It was the weirdest thing, but I can feel the emotion of that now. She'd seen something in that moment, and I was like, oh, and it just hit me. And you know, how many was that 30 odd years ago? Plus, um yeah, I can still feel that. So you're right, it yeah. It doesn't have to come from a course or a train, it can come from those little interactions, daily interactions, you know, anywhere. Really?
SPEAKER_02And it's that yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Interesting. Yeah. There's uh just uh getting this balance right, because I'm just very aware, for example, in a couple of weeks' time it's Valentine's Day, and I I've taken advantage of that by running a singles workshop on Valentine's Day. And on the one hand, there's a bit of me just going, there's a really cynical marketing bit behind it, which isn't what's fueling it, but I'm I'm worried that people might think that. Um, and then there's another part of me that knows actually people will get a lot of awareness and um, you know, it'll it'll be a good day, let's put it that way. Um But I d you know, obviously I'm not gonna promise that a week later they'll meet the loves of their lives kind of thing. And it it's holding that space, it's very difficult. How do you I mean it's not sell your wares, but how do you make people aware of what it is you do, particularly in the modern age of social media and and lots of lots of I mean a lot of stuff on Instagram, sort of the therapy and spirituality stuff is utter nonsense. Um, but it's selling. And uh I how do you sell authenticity? Maybe that's the question.
SPEAKER_02Well, maybe it's easier for me because you know, being psychic, I often feel in and go, no. I can kind of normally feel it. If something's inauthentic. But on the Valentine's thing, it's an interesting thing because I was um wandering uh around London yesterday, and of course, the you know, opening on the 13th is is Wathering Heights, you know, with um Margot Robbie and and somebody else. I can't think of his name at the moment, and that's opening very much for Valentine's Day. You know, you can see that that's the marketing. There's nothing wrong with that on one level. Because those days that slot in in the calendar are days that as a society we've created to reflect on something. Mother's Day, Father's Day. You I mean, you obviously Christmas and Easter being in a kind of kind of you know, base history Christian country, uh kind of come up. But I don't think it's a worry that actually we we have these moments of checking in on ourselves or checking in, does that suit me? Is it cynical? Is it not? You know, you've got you've got loads of things you've got, and we've we've added to them quite, you know, quite as a society. Well, you know, you know, Black History Month, you know, we've got Pride, which is now a month, but you know, we've got all of those things that are coming in that should talking about groups and talking about kind of where are we? But I do think, you know, it is about it's client-led, isn't it? Really? You have to make yourself available, and I make myself available for work, but you so do you. You have to make yourself available. But it does it come from that point, and this is the interesting thing about the industry of um mind, body, spirit, let's call it, um, is often on the is it coming from a mature place that you're very happy for people to come and put themselves, you know, in the spaces we run. Um, and it's got to be about the work and not about us. I get quite irritated by marketing that focuses too much on me because I'm a bit like, well, I'm not really there. I'm just facilitating the work. It's not really about how long I've done it or what my title is. You know, I've could say I've also worked hard to get there. So there's part of me that's quite protective of that, but there's also part of me that the work must come first. So often I get quite um irritated by people asking me for marketing ideas. Or could you do this or could you do that, or would you mind doing this, or could we have a sound by on that? And I'm a bit like, you're asking me to put kind of you know 17, 18 years of professional work into kind of two sentences while I'm just about grab going up the stairs and I've got five minutes. And so people get very upset when I go, no. Because it has to be it has to be about the individual. The clients in all both of our cases bring themselves.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_02But I don't think there's anything wrong with putting out the marketing because we have to be seen. But I know what you mean, it's a tricky one of sometimes. I hear what you're saying, it's a tricky one sometimes of where does that fit? And where does the the you know the maturity dealing with spirituality come from? I like I love the fact that some of my students are out there teaching and working. I love it because we all had to do that initially. We've all done the first couple of years, or the first month, or run the first workshop. And we we've all we've all had to start somewhere, and I try and have to remind myself of that, you know, that the people who have had lots of experience are great, but at one point they they had their first day.
SPEAKER_00And there it there is something here about uh allowing the ego to step out the way. That's not the thing that's running the show, and again, I suppose that's surrender of ultimately.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and yeah, and for me, when I'm in a situation where I can see somebody's ego creeping into the work, um, when I'm in a space where I'm receiving as a as a group member, I I I I do turn off very quickly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I know I'm with you on that. Or I can get a little irritated, but then you could argue that's my ego kicking in.
SPEAKER_02Which often I get irritated, which is my ego kicking in, but I mean they've lost me. Yeah. And it's it's quite hard sometimes for me to get back on.
SPEAKER_00And then there's something there about again how that space is held. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I'm a great storyteller when I'm teaching. Well, you know, it's I love stories because often they talk about the past and they kind of give you a bit of a shape. And you think, okay, this is how I work through it. But there is a fine line between telling a story to prove to prove a point and telling a story about yourself just because you know you want to. And I'm shamelessly the person who for a laugh says in groups quite often. Well, I am brilliant, and of course, you all know that as well. But um, you know, I it's said in a very jovial way, but one has to have a confidence in what one's offering, but it can't lose the individual. You are in service.
SPEAKER_00There's I I won't name it, but there's there's um uh an online lecture group of people, and that a lot, there's a lot of act there, it's sort of spirit spirituality in science, and there's a lot of academics on it, and I always check out before the questions and answers because whenever I'm doing if there's anything, because all that happens if you get a bunch of people asking questions that is purely designed to show how clever they are, and I was kind of like no, it just does my head in, so it's it's just a battle of egos towards the end. Um, and it's it's actually very boring. I mean, I think ultimately that's what it comes down to for me.
SPEAKER_02I um I have a friend who lectures around all around the world on on subjects I on a subject I find quite interesting. So sometimes I say to him, Oh, send you what you're doing, oh send it over, you know. So he sends a recording over. And I often get to this, and I found myself saying to him last year, do all the people on who come to your things answer ask a question by saying how right they are in the question. And by the time they've actually said the question, you've forgotten what they've said because they've talked about themselves so much. He went, Oh, that's academics for you.
SPEAKER_01Okay, fair enough.
SPEAKER_02He is one, you know, but that's what he says. It's an interesting thing to turn around and ask a question in that way. But because the thing that happens in any industry is or any spaces, we get into battles. And sometimes it's interesting, you know, to sit there and think, actually, am I mature enough to get out the battle? And that's kind of where we started, wasn't it? With me saying that when I was young I needed the last word. And now sometimes I don't. And sometimes I'm very happy just to not step into the ring with that conversation. Well, there's nothing in there for me, so I won't bother.
SPEAKER_00I don't know whether it's age or maturity, that sense of actually, you know what, I can leave this exactly where it is right now. It's done. And I and then sort of move on onwards and upwards, as it were. Masculinity and spirituality with Gary Wright and Oliver Baum. For more information on the work of Gary Wright, please visit www.therightmedium.co.uk and for Oliver, www.oliverbaum.co.uk Produced and edited by Oliver Baum with additional editing and music by Felix.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for listening.
