Veils to the Soul
Season 2 ... Masculinity and Spirituality. An exploration into the current state of the Masculine in Therapy and Spirituality.
Season 1 ... Birthing Spirit in the Modern World. An exploration of what's between us and our Souls' birth, and how the Modern World resists that birth, but needs it - if it's to survive and thrive!
Veils to the Soul
11. Peace
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Gary and Oliver talk about Peace and come to the conclusion that it's a good idea however ... Conflict, Tribe, Community, Projection, Surrender, the tendency to see Peace as 'over there' and how comfort and peace are not the same thing; Do they help or hinder?
Thanks for listening!
Find out more:
For Oliver's Psycho-Spiritual work with Individuals, Couples and Groups, please visit www.oliverbaum.co.uk.
For more information on Gary's work www.thewrightmedium.co.uk
Veils to the Soul, Masculinity and Spirituality with Oliver Baum and Gary Wright. And today we're going to talk about men and peace. And it's interesting, just as I say that, I'm feeling a little bit of trepidation. I'm kind of aware, you know, what's going on in the world at the moment is a lot of war. And also it's International Women's Day as well, which plays into it. But sort of as a starting point, what I wanted to look at is I mean, I'm not a big churchgoer, but occasionally I go and without fail, my favorite part of a church or an Anglican church service anyway, is that bit where everybody shakes hands and goes, peace be with you, and also with you. And that that moment of connection between people has always touched me. And then for the life of me, I can't remember who it was who told me this, but um someone mentioned that in Aramaic um the word peace means connected to God or connected to the divine. And that brings a whole different meaning to that moment of connection. And when you sort of have that very English handshake of yes, peace be with you. Um but there's eye contact often in that moment as well, and there was something about that that connection that always really, really touched me. And it, you know, I don't I actually look forward to that in a service. Um so there's sort of I suppose what I'm talking, there's there's sort of peace, and I suppose the opposite of peace might be comp conflict. Th there's a lot in this mix, and we could we could talk sort of politics and war and and I suppose patriarchy and and whatever else. Um but also there's a very there's a much softer side to the discussion on peace and much more inner. Uh and that sense of of really, I mean, for me anyway, of peace is is very much about being in the world, connected to the earth, but also connected above as well, and sort of uh uh on a breadth connected with other people, connected with community, connected with basically connection is where I'm coming from with this.
SPEAKER_01Anyway, it's a very interesting one because I was thinking about this as you know, I was making my tea before we started, and I thought I've never ever heard anybody say that they think peace is a bad idea. I've never ever heard anybody say that, ever. Woman, man, child, elderly, I've never heard anybody say I think it's a bad idea. But isn't it interesting that quite often we we tend to think of it as like, well, what we'll do is we'll just obliterate that side of all those people, and then we'll have peace. It's actually quite often the solution of having a peaceful life is actually to uh destroy or to weaken somebody else rather than thinking about, you know, and this is internationally often, you know, and politically, but often even in families. It's not a we don't tend to think, what do we need to have a peaceful situation? We've all got to be heard. We tend to think we've got to win something often, you know, is what what I've heard in conversations. I've never heard anybody say, well, well, you know, I think we're at peace, I think we should just talk more. And people do end up having to talk when there's conflict, but not always the first thing that comes up. So that first thing that comes up in all of this, in my observation of the world for what it's worth, is um is often conflict.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I I wonder if that's a projection outwards of of an inner conflict. You know, we I I always wonder with America, you know, that sort of a sense of the good guy, um, sort of the the roving cowboy, the hero kind of thing. And that has to have a shadow. And if if if a person or a country or whatever it is can't own their own shadow, it tends to get pro, you know, everybody has their bogey men and it gets projected outwards. And that happens in families, it happens in spiritual groups, it you know, it happens everywhere. Um, so there is something again here about people being able to own their own darker side.
SPEAKER_01Well, yes, and it's an interesting thing, isn't it? That you again, here we go again, it does have to start from within. It's very hard to create a peaceful environment if you're at war with yourself or in conflict over something in you, does tend to trickle out, you know, in terms of how you express yourself, how you you know, conversations, or if you're in conflict with somebody else and you're pretending it's not there, it does tend to um leak somewhat if you are not in a peaceful place in yourself. And that might be a bit, you know, sound a bit overly romantic, and you just find yourself a peaceful heart within, and it will all be marvellous outwardly, and we'll all live in some marvellous utopia. But it is about, you know, that thing, isn't it? All of those hidden moments of where what we really feel sometimes comes out, and that doesn't always make a peaceful kind of world, really. It's sometimes quite challenging, I f feel, for people to sit there and think, have I got a pe have I got am I at peace with myself? And that's an interesting point.
SPEAKER_02It's interesting. I've I've completely dissociated as you were saying that. It's it's interesting. I've come away, I I'm feeling very, very peaceful. I think I was trying to feel into something, but I don't feel connected with my body. Um and so if I bring myself back and bring it back into my body, and where would I feel that peace? I mean, I can feel a tightness in my chest, because that's sort of the heart center would be where I would do it, but I can feel particularly on my right hand side, and and I know how much a fan you you are of having the masculine coming in on the right hand side.
SPEAKER_00Well, I don't know about that. I have a lot of energy coming in on the right hand side. I mean, sometimes that might be feminine, but but yeah.
SPEAKER_02But it's um but as a sort of if I was yeah, there's a weakness here. It's interesting as if if there's a there's a part of me that would rather give up than than lean into conflict that has then the potential for peace. I think that's where I'm coming from it. And there is something about me being able to then you know to hold myself, to hold that potential for for conflict that's within me and within all of us. You know, without being the nice guy or whatever it might be. And being able to step forward confidently and actually that can lead to peace or to a more peaceful sense of self. Because I I think there's a tendency for us to deny the stronger parts of us that might be a bit more aggressive, particularly as men, for fear of you know, whatever that might be. Um and don't get me wrong, it it's something that has been abused massively over well, over the whole history of humanity, probably. Um maybe because of that, but there's a fear in really embodying that's that sort of strength, but also the aggression that can go with it.
SPEAKER_01It's an interesting one because I was thinking about this yesterday, thinking that I'm often on the um I'm often on the can on the purse I'm not on the personal attack of people. I'm not I'm not there, but I'm I know where my defense buttons are quite easily. I mean I know where to put I know where my shield is to pick it up quite quickly. Isn't it interesting we think of protection? Can you be protected and connected? Or do you think if you're connected, you have to give up a certain amount of of sort of protection of oneself? I mean protection is probably the wrong word in there, but it's sort of connection and protection, or protecting oneself or holding oneself and being connected, are are they available at the same time? I had a very interesting day yesterday. I came to the conclusion that yesterday, I know I couldn't do those two things together. Um but it I obviously a different day today. But um it I I just thought that's a very interesting thing between connection and protection.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and there's also something there about the parameters of of almost like the container. So for example, we're doing this over Zoom right now, and there's there's you know limitations within that, and yet we can still go through that and and and feel connected. Um I I wonder if there's something here about boundaries, because I mean that's a bit of a uh I mean boundaries are important, obviously, but and it's a bit of a buzzword and can be used as as an avoidance ultimately. But there's something here about being able to sit in a space of okay, I'm me, you're you. Um and we can still connect within that space. I suppose it's the kind of eye thou connection. Yeah. And then there's another argument there as to actually is that spiritual? Because you can say, Oh, actually, in the space where we're all one, there are no boundaries, and you know, you're you, uh I'm you, you're me, and you know, we're all this big amorphous blob of energy, which um there's a truth to that as well, but we're also very human. So there's something about the dance of that for me.
SPEAKER_01It's an interesting one, really, isn't it? In in terms of having to sit in some ways with somebody who necessarily is very different and feel connected, and feeling that you don't have to protect yourself. Now I'm wondering if conflicts rattle out into the world and in families or in groups or in workplaces, it's because people feel that they are so different that they can't find that person. Where I've always found people who are very different to me, you know, culturally or uh you know, age-wise, uh always fascinating. I've often found that you know, my my decade and my, you know, my theoretically, the people who would say, oh, they are your people, have not always been that for me. I've often found the connection through differences much more easily. It's given me a not a starting point to have a conversation. But it's interesting on the world where often I see or I see, you know, problems with people, you know, problems in families or people talking to me about problems in you know workplaces. It's often because people feel quite similar sometimes, and they're trying to identify themselves by difference. So it's a very interesting. I think I've just unpicked my own argument there in my own in my own head, but uh it's a bit of a strange one, really. That for me, I've often watched people defining themselves by difference, and for me, that's always been a connection point where sometimes people find that the more similar they are, you know, b birds of a feather flock together, has never been true for me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I wonder if there's something about vying for turf there, the similarities. Um, you know, when you come quite often people can have a a viewpoint, two people can have a virtually identical diagnoses of a situation or a problem, but then they come at it from a completely different space, even though they're actually looking for the same outcome. I mean, I think you see that an awful lot in politics. Oh yeah. Um, but also between people, between people. I I mean, I think professionally I I've really noticed that in supervision groups. Um, and where you've got two people saying exactly the same thing, pretty much, but they're not not willing to admit that in some ways, and so they're vying for the same spot. So I do think that maybe you could put this out geopolitically, that people are fighting over a small piece of turf and they're wanting to make it their own and differentiate it themselves from other people. Um and I just uh yeah, I'm just uh as you were talking about difference and connecting with people with difference. I I remember when I was how old was I, about 18, 19. Um, you know, I used to be in the hospitality industry and I've I've you know I've worked in some pretty grotty pubs in over the life over my lifetime. Um and uh you know and various things and I used to love it. I used to love it, you know. I have very fond memories of a s of uh, I mean it's it's all gentrified now, but of a a sort of locals boozer in South London that I used to to work in that was that was great fun and we had all kinds of people and it was wonderful and everybody would would connect in this space and it would be I mean everybody was pissed, but it was it was it was still good fun. Um and there was a there was a I I mean I don't know what com connected everybody in there other than alcohol, but um, but there was a sense of peace and occasionally it would boil over, but uh there was something quite lovely about that space. Um I'm not sure what my point is with all of this. But there's this it's getting that balance between boundaries. There's a loosening of boundaries that you may have got in a pub in the early 90s, which which is sort of alcohol fuelled and and probably not healthy long term, but it allows connection. Yeah, there's the other side of that where people are so boundaried uh that they become rigid and they're vying over over territory in some ways. Um that's almost like sort of the parsimonious version of it. And then there's there's got to be something a healthy version of that in the middle somewhere.
SPEAKER_01Well it's interesting, isn't it? Because pubs uh pubs, you know, going back no going back 30 years, were well even longer actually. Were points in the community where people went, everybody went, because if you were going to go out for a drink, there wasn't the amount of restaurants and cafes, and we didn't have that cafe culture in Britain, like maybe Paris or you know France did. So, you know, you turned up and you sat in a pub, didn't you? And that was the only place where you know, when supermarkets, I remember the time where supermarkets didn't do alcohol, and the only place you could get alcohol to take home was an off license, and they were always more expensive. So going to a pub was where everybody went, wasn't there, you know, and you had sports teams working in coming out of pubs and and all sorts of different things. You had a very different space. So there is something about community, the you know, the erosion of community. I mean, it's interesting, but you know, again, it's easy to blame social media, but you know, we do tend to kind of offer groups you might be interested in or follow people that we think we've got things in common with. Rather than following somebody who I haven't got anything in common with, why would you? You could answer. But that probably brings a whole different perspective, and you think, well, that's just their opinion. I don't agree with it, or well, maybe I do agree with it, but we don't tend to open ourselves up quite in the same way before as people used to, because we don't end up all being lumped together so much, it has become much more kind of find your tribe, find your people. And we might have lost something about overcoming kind of differences and conflict in that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. And I I mean, everybody says that the things are much more polarised. Well, I say everybody, some people say that things are much more polarized now than than they ever have been in the past. And I think there's definite truth in that. And there is that tendency to rush to to being right, and being right is what our belonging is based on. So we're the the right side of this, that, and the other, we stand with that, what you know, whatever whatever it may be. Um, and then again, the the shadow is projected out onto the other side. You know, so so they're the bad guys. I don't I don't know. I I mean I always think Tory scum is quite an interesting phrase, let's put it that way. And then whatever the the other way around is, I'm sure there's one of those too. Um, and it's it it's the us versus them, and immediately we're into conflict.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and I think I can't remember who it was, it might have been David Cameron, you know, it was it was all hugger hoodie. Well, you know, did they want to be hugged really by a load of people that hadn't got any conflict? I mean, you know, we'd we'd suddenly kind of gone into this space where we like, let's be nice to people who who we think we might be scared of. Well, that's not a bad way of starting anything on one level, but on another level, it didn't assume that we we were this great certain people, this great gift to these people that they had decided were difficult.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it was very patronizing, wasn't it? It was such an ex and I'm saying this as an ex-public schoolboy, it was such an ex-public schoolboy thing to say. Um, and and there's another ring in that as well. You're making the other person the other.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And you know, from from a boy who was originally from the East End, thanks very much, jog on, really. But but I'll decide if I want to hug, you know, because now we're in a thing, quite rightly, over consensual anything. You've got to consent to say before you look at somebody, you know, which is not a bad thing either. On some levels, might be a bit of an extreme version that I've just put there. But we had this sort of all they all need understanding. Well, yes, they do need understanding, but you know, you've got to find somewhere where they feel comfortable, not just go around hugging people. And I don't think anybody felt it was a good idea or it worked. I don't know. Nobody ever said to me, I've just hugged a hoodie and I feel great about myself. I've just had a hug from a complete stranger and I feel great about my my life, you know. It's it was a very strange thing, but there is this point where we keep going into this kind of we've got to rescue, or we've got to kind of you know bend the knee a little bit or comply or be more flexible. But actually, what would be great is actually if everybody somebody could come out wasn't saying actually it'd just be nice if everybody had a conversation. Yeah. Because there you find people with certain things, you find a similarity somewhere, and it might be the fact that you both feed the birds in the morning, but it's a conversation starter then.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, sorry, I nearly lost it there. I had this wonderful image of a bunch of sort of 60-year-old old Etonians running around the East End trying to give people hugs. Anyway.
SPEAKER_01And also it was a bit ridiculous, you know, because hoodies are often sports rare. I get what they mean. But you know, it was a very it is a very strange thing of actually, you know, trying to encourage people to talk.
SPEAKER_02I've just had a I don't I can't I can't remember when this happened, but someone in a hoodie did randomly come up to me in the street and ask for a hug once. Can't remember what it was. Anyway, it'll come back to me. It was a really it was a really it was a lovely moment of connection as well. It was really, really lovely. Yeah. Anyway. Um there's d so there's something here about polarizing bul tribe, need the need to be right or to belong to the right tribe that gets in the way of connection, but then then there's community and and peace. Which which arguably does then lead to connection and and peace between people. And uh on the surface you could argue they're the same thing, but they're c they're not. There's there is something fundamentally different in that, and and it is something to do with the word, you know, communion in some ways for me.
SPEAKER_01And I do I'm I'm very cheered at the moment by the rise of communities. And they are struggling and bubbling, but they're that they're bubbling even through the struggle, and and they are there. You know, lots of people have neighborhood WhatsApp groups. Not that we do, obviously where I live, but um, but people do, and people have community groups, and there are more and more opportunities. People have trying to connect to meet. People. And that's been quite an interesting thing, I think. And it's quite new. I think it's been really the rise of last. I mean, I think the COVID lockdowns did mean that people went local, they went more villagey because it wasn't so easy to travel for a point. And that might have created a started to create these little kind of more community hubs because people did look out for each other. I mean, you know, in some ways. I mean, it did bring people a little bit together. Once we all got our toilet rolls and we all felt a bit safer, you know, in Britain. We weren't mugging each other with loo rolls in the street. But um, you know, once we got we realized there wasn't, you know, we weren't in a shortage of food, it was just that the supply chain somehow had been interrupted because everything was digital. Once all that kind of shifted, we kind of went, but but we did go back into this kind of connection point, um, which has been rather nice, really, but community is very, very important, really. But I'm not always sure that men find it as easy to come into community with each other as maybe men finding to drop into a mixed communities. You know, often often around schools, you say, I'm not a parent, you are. But so often around schools, there's been that, isn't there?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, there's a lot in there. Um I mean it's interesting because as you said earlier, it's very easy to sort of slam social media as being a polarising force, and undoubtedly it is. But then if you go to lockdown once the initial sort of uh toilet roll fight in queues outside Sainsbury's had had um settled, I mean it really did bring out the worst in people that uh I never forget. Yeah, the low in the local village, this is when the the vaccinations had first come out, vaccines had first come out, and it was supposed to be only for people I think over 75. And then these two guys who are in their like late 30s, early 40s high-fiving each other, saying, I've got mine. I was like, wow, okay. But once the I've got mine attitude um goes, um there was you know, technology, you know, whether it's WhatsApp groups, um, Zoom that we're talking on. I mean, I've I've got really close friends who I've uh across the world who I've never actually met in person, but we talk and meet regularly on Zoom, which would never have happened without the technology side. Um so there can be a positive side to the tech as well as as well as a negative.
SPEAKER_01Oh, totally, yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, and and and the community, so many particular, I think this is particularly in the sort of therapy and spirituality world. I mean, I think a lot of people outside of it as well are a talking community as well. But there's oh yeah, we really need community, everyone needs community. It's a bit like rituals, that's another that seems to be another one. Um, we really need this, we really need that, and we really need the other. But then when it comes to actually doing the community, I think if you're in London, it's better, but if you're out if you're outside of London in a maybe a less populated area, um it's hard. It is really hard. Everybody sort of goes, yeah, this is great, and then doesn't quite know what to do.
SPEAKER_01Yes, or the communities run very strongly around the village, and you must. Oh I've got a friend who's in a very small village, and you are coming to the village open day, aren't you? Well, um I've got a friend and I've got no it's the village open day. And you are slightly kind of shunned if you're not, you know, it's quite hard, I think, to be in the two places. I mean, you know, it's a bit of a tricky, bit of a trickier dance sometimes in a really small community, but that might be to do with the individuals. But there is a something, yeah, it's interesting about ritual, isn't it? Uh and and because often rituals are going towards peace, but people have been starting asking, but I've noticed this. People saying, Oh, I would like to go to a ritual, and well, what on? I don't know, but I'd like to be in one. Well, yeah, but what you what are you kind of looking for? Well, I don't know. Well, isn't there a ritual getting up and making the cup of tea in the morning? I mean, I don't mean that, I mean with other people. You know, there's this thing of actually people looking for something. And that might be an interesting point, really, in terms of bringing people together at the heart with a kind of spirituality or a or a shared point.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, the the I'll I'll do a shameless plug now, the although this will probably end up going out after we've done it, but the the workshop um that we're planning on doing at the college on aligning with the ancestors. And when people talk about aligning with the ancestors, it very, very much feels to me is what most people are longing for is that sense of peace, that ability to have a a settled place in them where the ancestors belong. Um that that feeds their souls, feel it feeds them, um and I mean to use family constellations language, you know, the blessings that are freely given from the ancestors to pass through us. Um and fuel us in a really positive way in the world. Um and that that is Yeah, and with with that, I'm just there's there's something of it again, it's it's being in the world. But I wonder if peace is uh I'm trying to formulate this. There's a tend I mean there's a potential anyway to think of peace as a slightly otherworldly thing, worldly thing. So, you know, I can sit there and I can do my transcendental meditation and and connect with with the divine, um, go into that kind of enlightened space, and you know, it's very zen, it's very peaceful, um, but it's also potentially very disconnected from the world. And there's something about bringing the balance of the two, you know, how can we feel at peace in the world? Both as individuals and more collectively.
SPEAKER_01It's you make a very good point there, because often uh uh people you know, people often think of peace as you know, a peaceful passing into something more peaceful. And people to usa when the people die, well they're at peace now. Are they? Interesting, you know, just because the body is gone doesn't necessarily mean that the you know the value systems and the soul is all kind of fragmented, you know. It's an interesting kind of point, really, of where that is. But it is about often people say, Well, I want a more peaceful life, I've got to move out of London, you know, or move out of a big city for a more peaceful life. And that does bring a sense of kind of quietness and things. But it's interesting, isn't it? Whether we think about is peace the absence of problems or a problematical world, or is it more about uh uh being able to constantly work and find a peace through a problematical world? And I don't know if if you can really understand peace if you just completely detach yourself into completely different space. It's peaceful and it may be quiet her, but you definitely aren't going to get away from yourself and it and where we're where we started, you know, if you can't be at peace with yourself, it's gonna be really, really hard. But there must be something about being able to feel peaceful even if the world around you is not.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, yeah, and I mean that's a really interesting point. That that idea of of peace being away from where we are. You know, even another place moving out of London. So peace will be found in the countryside rather than in the centre of town. Um and uh Yeah, looking for that peace outside ourselves. The world is chaotic, the world is full of conflict. Um but actually d it is it all comes down to all a lot of it comes down to that inner feeling. Yeah, how can I feel at peace wherever I am? There's a there's a lovely um I'm gonna I whenever I quote Buddhist stories, I always completely mash them. So apologies. But there's a lovely story of a of a Buddhist monk sat under a Bodhi tree or something like that, and a samurai comes out and draws his sword and goes, Monk, I shall kill you now. And the monk just looks at him in his zenway and goes, and I shall let you. And the samurai then draw puts his sword back in and wanders off. Um and it's that kind of that sense of being able to be at peace in conflict, as you as you said, um, that I think is a true, I mean, if we we can quantify this, that's a true measure of peace, or someone who is at peace.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it's a it's a remarkable thing, isn't it? It's also working out, I think, at times what really is important to us, right at the heart. I mean, there was a very, I mean, very sad and very harrowing interview to watch, but I did watch an interview when when the situation in Gaza was at its worst, and there was a very elderly man sat in a deck chair on a big pile of rubble. And and you people could say, well, this is propaganda and all sorts of things, you know, who knows what it was. But still the message was interesting to to reflect on. He said, I'm too old to kind of be displaced again, I can't move again. I'm gonna sit here and I will probably be blown up later, but at least I'm gonna be sitting where I was born on this point. And he said, I'm actually quite happy to go. I don't think many of us would probably want to sit there, but he said, I just can't do anymore. And it was quite a remarkable uh thing of because he there was a certain um peacefulness to him, you know. I mean, as I said, people were gonna say, Well, that was interesting. He put out that news story, and who was it defending, who wasn't? You know, the conflicts could become a easily come around that, but for his point of view, you could really feel in his energy, he just went, I'm just ready to go. You know, I can't be moving, they'll be they'll move quicker without me. I'm just gonna sit here and let it happen. And there is something about a surrendering to peace, which does it arrive in one's inner world when we just surrender to the fact that actually we're start we stop looking at it from outside.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I seem to be talking a lot about Christian stuff today, but I'm reminded of um part of the centering prayer with that, you know, I let go of the need for power and control, I let go need for safety and security, I let go of the need for self-esteem and affection, and I accept everything as it is. Um, and there is a settling. I mean, if I mean if you once you get through the initial power and control, let go of that. No, God knows. Once you're past that bit, um, there is a settling in the body that comes with that, and that that sense of um yeah, it is peace. It is peace. Whatever is around you, whatever's going on around you. There is something about that surrender, and I I wonder if to truly find peace as a as a human being, we we almost have to be able to surrender to death or to the potential for death. You know, that idea of carrying, you know, the the fact that we will pass, um, certainly in this form. Um, I'm trying to remember it's a quote, uh I think it was the alchemist, might be completely wrong. Um, where you know, uh a a whole man is a man who can carry death a short distance from their left shoulder. And again, that is massively badly paraphrased, whoever it was originally came from. Um and there there is something about there, there's something about that, there's a weight um as in not a heaviness as in a burden, but a weight as in belly um that comes from somebody, there's a presence to somebody who can do that, and a peace that could that runs alongside it.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm going to butcherish some buthiscrake now as well, but um I remember, I don't know whether that was a lecture or something, but uh it's stuck with me for years that somebody said um that if you understand the eternity of life, you're not a the uh you're not a victim of anger and greed and uh animality, which is you know the Lord of the jungle, really, that kind of you know thing. You're not a victim of those three. So there is something about being able to sit quite calmly internally with a without a worry of of death, which I think is very, you know, very natural in us all. I mean, we're all programmed to keep living, you know, and that's what the body does. It gets up in the morning, it thinks, right, I've got to have so much to eat to eat, I've got to have so much to drink, you know. I mean, you know, the body does know how to kind of live, but it also does know how to die. But I don't think we're not we're not very good at uh we're not very good around death anymore, in in especially in the West. I don't think we do it very well. You know, it's sort of all shut out. Where years ago, everybody again, we're back to kind of community now, everybody would have had somebody in the community, but you would have gone and knocked on the door and gone, can you go and get them? I think somebody's dying. And would have known what to known how to have held that space, you know. That's probably disappeared in the last hundred years, I would imagine, those people. You know, because there was you know, there's no point if you were dying going to hospital at one point. We're pre-antibiotics and all things like that, and pre-lots of surgeries. So people did die within communities, and maybe if we saw that more, that gentle kind of transition, which hopefully for most people it is, we would understand that actually you have to find that within peace within a little bit more and not maybe look for it so externally.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's that's interesting. I'm reminded of a dream I had um uh a while back. There's uh anybody who's sort of uh a bit of a guitar nerd, um, there's there's various YouTube channels that cater to that, Anderton's TV being one of them, um, which is also in the music shop. Link to that is local to me. Um and and I remember having a dream where Lee Anderton, who's is the owner of the store, um, was running a side hustle as a euthanasia clinic at the back of the guitar shop, which was kind of weird in and of itself. There is a point to this, by the way. Um and and I'd I'd come along, um, I think I was probably planning to buy another guitar, and um, but instead of that, I ended up in the euthanasia clinic bit. And he offered me 50p for the pain-free example of it, or which I refused. And then it was like basically it just gives you something to go off and and and you pop your clubs. And I remember really viscerally physically feeling the stress of of the decision. Um, it had the sort of feel of an initiation dream. Um, of okay, am I gonna do this? Do I feel ready for it? And then coming to the place of peace with that, and then surrendering, and then stepping over the threshold, and then at that point, that's when I woke up, and actually feeling very, very much at peace, despite the dream being quite weird and um and stressful at times. Um so yeah, so I'm just wondering if there is that there's that movement over a threshold um that acts as an initiation for us on a on a probably a very individual level that allows us to find peace. And then the question is how do we then bring it into the world? Um, and that I suppose that that comes back to not just um men's groups and and men's spirituality groups, which we we kind of try and touch on in each episode. But just more generally in life in community, you know, what's it like to to have groups of people, whether men, women, whatever, just as as centred beings.
SPEAKER_01I'll let you know if I ever find myself in one. It's often it's often it's in um often in groups there's a couple there's a conflict, isn't there? Because there's a battle for a hierarchy. You know, or somebody has to somebody doesn't feel heard, seen, acknowledged, and somebody feels that they should be the one that actually has got the answers to everybody. And it's sometimes quite complicated in groups to feel a sense of peace. You know, it's um I've got a not wanting to have a go at the church, but I think my friend won't mind me saying this. She she does the flowers in a church, and she said, and she says to me, I said, What were you doing today? She said, I'm going into battle. And I said, Well, what are you battling with now? And she said, Oh, I've got to do the church, we've got doing the flowers for the church. And I said, Was it like that? She said, Oh yes. Oh yes, she said, I'm going into battle with a lone carnation, because it is about who does the flowers to what bit. So all of those things of wanting to be seen, and often I think about groups, the very peaceful people in groups, or the people who sit there and just let it all watch everything and don't get drawn into the conflicts and don't get caught in the in the real kind of battles in groups. This is not Westby and me, are often the people who know exactly why they're there. And they are they often have a higher purpose or a higher reason for doing that, whether that be men's groups, church, flower arranging, they know why they're there for them and why they you know they have a bigger picture about why they're doing this. And I'm kind of wondering that if you if we can have a sense of why we're there and a sense of a little bit of a bigger kind of view of something, whether that actually brings an inner peace and whether you need those two to running together to bring an inner peace.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's I mean that's yeah, that's really interesting. I'm I'm glad you brought that up. Because that is there is that sense of being held I mean held. I don't know if held is so this I mean to go back to um the buzz phrase that we seem to have adopted of being able to hold our own hearts, I think it's very much part of it. But there's also that sense of being held by something bigger, whatever that may be.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I think there is something about peace where you do have to think about something bigger. It can't be because that I I I'm I'm kind of as we're talking, kind of coming slowly to the realization that if you're thinking, you know, I'm gonna create a peaceful world, it is often at the expense of somebody else's value system. Or actually, if you think I'm gonna sit in my peaceful my peace internally, you do need to anchor yourself to a to um, as my friend Neil says often, the big upstairs. I mean, you mean the spirit world is what we're talking about. Yeah, the big upstairs. But um, you know, you need to you know you need to be in relationship with something with something else as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because I mean ego is inherently divisive. That sense of I, you know, if it it is always divisive. Um and you can always tell when if something creates further division, um, even if it's dressed up as being you know, lovely and fluffy and whatever it might be, if it's creating more division, then it's coming from ego. Um, you see that quite a lot with activists and things like that. It's kind of it might be dressed up as, you know, this is we're trying to, I mean, I always think we're trying to save the world is is an interesting one because it puts us in the wrong place in relation to the world. You know, the world is bigger than us and it's going to survive us perfectly well in some ways. Um so actually it's more about us saving our own arses in some way, and and if if we can acknowledge that and just say, okay, yeah, we've made a mistake in whatever context is and we we can we need to do something about this, then that can lead to um the potential for peace. But if we go from a position of, oh yes, well, we're wonderful and it's absolutely great because I'm sitting here saying I want to save the world, um, then frankly, at best, bugger all gets done. At worst, then the shadow gets projected out, as we we were saying earlier.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it is uh it is uh it's very easy to go, I think with peace, I'm this great gift that's gonna help bring it rather than I'm gonna find it in me first and then let it ripple out. Because I've got a I've got a friend in They are very, very peaceful to be around. They know who they are, they have a very strong kind of faith-belief system. They are just very not they don't have opinions about the world and kind of go oh at certain times, because they do, but they are very centered in themselves and they have a very peaceful life that isn't controlled. All sorts of people coming and out of, they know they're in a world where they have to meet different lots of different people, and they've discovered that the only way to do it in themselves has always been like this, but there's been a massive kind of conscious bit of work in her for the last sort of seven years to be a peace, to have a peaceful life for herself. Sits and watches the news, watches all the conflicts, watches you know what's what's being said. She's not away from anything, but she does come back to herself thinking, well, why has that rattled me? Where's where's my you know, where's my peace? Where's that bit? And she runs community groups and she runs really interesting stuff, and they all rattle along because she's at the head of it, going, you know. Well, I saw her once, you know, there's a bit of a fight with two ladies, you know, she said, We're not going to have fisticuffs over a cup of tea. They were in the kitchen making teas. You know, she's not, you know, but because she says it, and because she kind of embodies it, people kind of go, Oh, yeah, I see your boy.
SPEAKER_02There's a sort of solid authority there, isn't there?
SPEAKER_01Yes, but a soft power. She's a very soft power. But she's very powerful. But she doesn't push her opinion on anybody other than we're not going to know, that we're not gonna get into a it's a cup of tea, don't worry about it. No, this is too, you know, you know, yeah, I did she's very funny as well, which I think is a great icebreaker. She said, you know, she did say to somebody once, because she does run, you know, she's a she she's involved with sort of community events, and she did say, you know, she said, the only time I ever find somebody was talking about how peaceful she is as an energy. She said, Oh, she said, you should see me with Klingfilm there. The masked clips with Klingfil. And so she she does acknowledge that she has to there are things that wind her up, which of course makes her very human, but her energy is fundamentally quite peaceful. But I know she goes back in meditation and prayer to look at that constantly. Yeah, why what's what's hit me today and why?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So this I wonder if there's something. I mean, the I mean, it it sounds as if she has a real commitment to that space to peace.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, she comes from a she has she's come from a point. I mean, she won't mind me talking about it. She has come from a place of where of and a family where that has not been available. So she's kind of very much gone, well, I can only provide it for me. And as she's provided it for herself, lots of other things in her life have just changed. Wow. So it's very, very interesting to watch. And yeah, you know, she can she can stand, you know, she can stand that we all do. She can stand in a queue trying to scan your own shopping in a supermarket and get very, very irritated at the fact that actually you can't get something, you can get everything else across, but you can't get the one thing across and there's nobody to help you. And uh she can get irritated, but she she manages to laugh at stuff, but it doesn't rattle her inner kind of conviction that actually she's having a peaceful life. No, she doesn't she not she doesn't sort of float along the world, you know, in like there's no problems in it, and things and everything works marvellously, but she it doesn't define her.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I that that's the key, isn't it? Because it there is a 10 well, there's a potential for slipping into a kind of a spiritual bypass of of you know uh just floating along and not actually taking like again, being outside of the world, whereas actually to be in it. I mean, it is it's in the world, not of the world, as it sounds like a friend is, is incredible, and there is a presence. And I as you were talking about, I can feel that that radiate offer, that sense of peace.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's extraordinary kind of, but an extraordinary commitment to herself in even doing that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But there is this point, but then other people have sat down and said, Well, what is it about you? Well, it's about this. You know, she's wanted space and stillness, it started with, and then she realized that actually it was going to talking about peace. Where often we see the reverse of that, don't we? We see the reverse of controlling the external is what will bring peace, not controlling the internal or settling out and and connecting with humanity. I mean, we can't talk about peace and w without talking about humanity in a way, and often that is lost.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, peace and comfort are not necessarily the same thing.
SPEAKER_02And it yeah, and if someone's looking for comfort, they'll probably end up missing peace.
SPEAKER_01I'm wondering though, why I still wonder why that often in men's groups there's often so much conflict. People listening to this shouting now, going, because you started it, probably. Not you, me. You know, I mean, it's often quite a conflict in there sometimes. And I wonder where that kind of comes from.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean you've got the group dynamics, haven't you? What is it? Um storm, what is it, form, storm, norm. Is that the right order? I always get those mixed up, which is I'm never terribly sure.
SPEAKER_01Every one we're in, really, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But I there is an assumption that for a group to a therapy group, anyway, to uh uh I don't know if this translates outside, um, to form properly or and and to get any level of depth, there has to be a storm.
SPEAKER_04Um I I I mean, is that true?
SPEAKER_02I don't know. Um, but it's certainly sort of the received wisdom, which probably potentially that needs challenging. Um but I d I think there's a different dynamics with with all men's groups. You know, there is the kind of the hierarchy, the finding space. Um yeah, I don't know why, it just feels different. It feels very, very there's that kind of jostling for position.
SPEAKER_01It's very interesting because I can be um I can be sometimes very uh I can really let the wheel of fate kind of flow sometimes if I'm really feeling confident. And um I would I'm often the one often the one that sometimes if they're on a on a retreat or on a group thing, I'll go and sit on a table on my own. I thought this was quite a good idea, and see who came rather than think who do I want to sit with and judge everybody. Sit down on a table of your own and see how it forms around you and see who naturally sits down and what kind of connection point you have. I didn't realise this just made me look incredibly grand. I thought it was quite, I thought I was coming at this with quite an open heart. People just say, Oh, you're very grand, aren't you? Sit sit on your own. And they all avoided me. And then I sat there thinking, well, I'm the one that nobody wants to sit with, where the I'd set it up like that. So there is something sometimes about to having to go forward and see and find and and and find something. There is something about uh connecting with people which can't be passive, have to push through something almost.
SPEAKER_02That that mirrors the internal version of that as well. You know, you have to a bit like your friend, you have to commit to wanting that connection with yourself and also commit to that wanting connection with other people. So it does involve taking that step towards.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, some nice people did eventually sit with me, but I did lose out on the fact because the people at the end of the community were terribly grand. I just thought I was trusting, I was not being in control could be in controlled, but it looked ultimately controlling. Sometimes it is about finding, you know, just being able to sit in a peaceful place with yourself with other people's stories and allowing them to have those. And I think ultimately that probably is about is about as is to it's about, you know, peace really in a way. You've got to allow people to have their own stories. But you've got to be peaceful enough in yourself not to feel that you need to control where those stories are going for them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I'm just imagining it if if you had a group of people together who were all at peace, I mean whatever that would look like or mean.
SPEAKER_05I'm just wondering what that would look like. I've got a bit of a blank space for what that might look like.
SPEAKER_01I'm challenged by images of Disney and images of just being it being terribly boring.
SPEAKER_02I mean that yeah, that was where I went.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's uh either I've got you know people with bluebirds flying round their heads and sort of rabbits and deer jumping around people's feet. But isn't it interesting that we think actually it's either got to be dull or it's got to be kind of fairy tale? Neither of those are real are a reality. You know, but is I mean, it is peace found through those, you know, it no nothing, no state of anything really exists all the time, does it? We move through different feelings all the time. So if we suddenly think we want a peaceful world, yes, or a peaceful inner world, yes, we can achieve that. But that probably does need to be disrupted to kind of remind us a little bit, to see you know the things that might make us uncomfortable. Because I think the idea chasing an inner peace on one level completely could mean that you could slightly become unempathic if you get it wrong. Because it could easily go into shutting people out, and coming across as a bit smark and arrogant, I think.
SPEAKER_02I don't know where I have my version of that too.
SPEAKER_01That was but it it is that interesting thing, isn't it? Is is peace about is peace about constantly being available for being in connections with people and also but also holding your own heart internally. Where you know, a problematical life, isn't it? Really? But it's definitely not about othering people. We know that it's never definitely not about pushing people away, but I think it's probably about bringing new experiences in.
SPEAKER_02I love running a hotel, it'd be amazing if there was no staff and no guests like that. Yeah, it's just like uh yeah. So it might be peaceful, but it's not exactly operational.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, a directing friend of mine said to me once, he said, Oh, he said, I read this play, and um, he'd been offered this play and he was gonna do it, and he did it, and he was very successful. And he said, Oh, I read this play, and he said, It's just sublime. And I said, Isn't it that and I knew it? I said, Isn't it the most wonderful play? I said, I'm very envious of you you've got the opportunity to do this play. He said, I he said I sat on the sofa and he said, Every I was sad when it ended, it's such a wonderful play. And he said, And then I realized then he did a cast. And he said, at that point it all went wrong. I said, What you did? I said, What probably said we needed actors, and I went, oh, he just realized that other people were gonna have an opinion about it, and he did do an incredible job, and it was a it was fantastic, but um he was he was immediately disturbed by the fact that actually other people needed to be in this space with him to be able to do it. You know, he said it was just a moment of kind of bliss, and then I realized, oh hang on, other people I've got to share this with other people. So it's a bit like owing in a hotel with no guests and no stuff. But it's very uh there is a an interesting point really, you know, with with anything that immediately kind of it's one of the pieces, one of those words that gets moved around uh in all sorts of spaces regularly, you know, what on world stages, in groups, in in workplaces, in relationships. It gets moved around. And I wonder sometimes whether we've really connected into what that word means for us and not sold what it means for somebody else.
SPEAKER_05Oh that's interesting. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's funny with that because I I I I know what it feels like. Putting uh kind of trying to describe it is it's quite hard actually in words anyway. And actually, I'm also very aware that my sense of what peace is for me internally is not necessarily going to be the same as it is for someone else.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that was the point I was I was sort of thinking about when I was saying it. Isn't it interesting that somebody's sense of peace could be somebody's sense of hell? And the fact that we as a big society now, we've got into this very much. This is what it must look like. Or this is what it must be like. I rather than being able to say to each other, actually, what's your internal world saying that you need for this? Because I know I've got I've got a friend who goes to cupping every weekend. I mean, my idea of hell, but I know out there on the dance floor, he's totally he's totally at peace. I mean, it's just that is his happy place, and he has a very responsible job, and he doesn't drink and he doesn't take drugs. This is not a kind of an a something else, you know, not an um an addictive process, but he just likes to dance, he gets it all out, and um that for him, but it's noisy and busy and I said and horrible and sweaty and getting home and getting there. My idea of absolute hell. Um, but not his. And so there is something about peaceful places and peace peace within that probably immediately means that we we want to somehow try and see if we can get everybody behind ourselves rather than going in and looking at what it is answering all those questions for us.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's interesting.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because uh part of what I'm sort of planning on doing at the moment is doing um where I am at the moment, turning it into a kind of wellness garden. Um and there are, you know, so I I've got an idea there'll be a wishing tree and there'll be a labyrinth and there'll be a little stream, and you know, um, this sounds much grander than it actually will be. But it it um but I'm I'm very much going down that it's gonna be a relaxing place to be and it'll be chilled, if that makes sense. It's not, but it's it's not gonna be a nightclub. Basically, but there's an assumption that that is what peace would look like, or a peaceful place would look like this kind of Zen Garden kind of thing. Right, yeah, it's it's not the same for everybody. That might be peaceful for some people, and it's a bit like meditation. Some people find meditation absolutely hell, um, and other people find it very peaceful.
SPEAKER_01Yes, but it's also about creating spaces where people can be themselves. And if people who are gonna come into a wellness garden are going to be people who are looking for that, people who are gonna be, you know, out clubbing will be people who are looking for that. But it's very interesting, isn't it? About what I was recognizing myself as I was saying that. It's about what I think peace means and and how often, and I can't answer that because it's just coming to me at the moment, how often do I project my version of peace onto others? Hmm. Not probably work-wise, because I'm in a different space and I get what I'm given, you know, but but thinking about, you know, I'm sure I've thought, oh, if they weren't here, it'd be much more peaceful, or if that was here, or if we didn't have to do this stupid exercise. I remember somebody it's a long while ago when I was fire, younger and fiery, somebody said to me, and what's your New Year's, what's what's your New Year's resolution? And I have heard myself say, to not answer stuff like that. Actually, they were just being quite kind. But it was those moments where she thought this was a great thing, and what are you gonna do this year? My idea was like not do anything, not have to feel that I must because it's New Year. Um, she took it very well, actually. We had quite a nice conversation in the end, but it was quite um fiery. I think I probably put a few more expletives into that sentence than were needed. But there is that thing, isn't it, about we we feel we've got to kind of be in certain spaces and in certain ways where pieces much but it's got to be an inner kind of thing first. And then it and then an energetic thing that might trickle out, you know. But we do tend to try and work out where the battle lines are, I think, quite often. I definitely do know where the battle line is first, and then work out how we can approach that rather than thinking, well, actually let's approach it internally, and then let's the battle lines or take the care of themselves.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I I what I'm left with the it is very much can we have peace, whether inwardly or outwardly. And this takes us back to what you were saying earlier, without addressing conflict, without f being able to face into lead into conflict. And yeah, I'm not sure you can, certainly not in a world, in the world. I mean, maybe you could sort of transcend past it completely, but then you're not in the world.
SPEAKER_01I was on a Buddhist retreat uh once. Uh I'd gone to stay, you know, in a and you had to you had to do little jobs, it was fine, you know, and the washing up was one thing. And that was fine. And then I found myself on flower ranging. And of this very I this little tiny lady with this beautiful smile said, Your internal world is being very disruptive by the fact that the flowers and the vase are not in harmony. But they are in harmony if you're not trying to wrestle them, wrestle bigger flowers into a smaller vase. And I kind of realised actually, she said basically it's all happening within you, it's nothing to do with anything else. So I can't I can't really remember what my point was here. No, I think you one has to recognise that sometimes internally things conflict, and I don't think you can have peace. I think peace without an inner struggle. I mean, it's I'm reminded of those, you know, how pearls are made, you know, they are made by a bit of grit in the oyster somewhere where it kind of you know manufactures these beautiful kinds of things that are sometimes very expensive, highly priced, and still, you know, still state pearls are quite highly priced. Um, but they start with an irritation. Yeah. And maybe an irritation means that that is a gateway into a more peaceful place.
SPEAKER_02I r remembered of a uh uh some someone I knew, an old teacher of mine who's who was a Buddhist monk for a while. And he was telling me about this uh apparently serving at the dinner table is is kind of a real honour. And so the abbot of the monastery sits at the head of the table, and then you've got like a long table with all the all the other monks sat at it, and and the person who's serving the food up serves the abbot first and then moves down the table and serves down and then serves themselves last. And then just as he's about to or she's about to sit down, the abbot goes second, and you have to get up and start to do the whole thing over again, and then you get back. And just as you're about to eat for yourself, that's it, dinner's over, and you have to wash out so you don't get to eat. And as I was being told this story, every sinew in my body was screaming with irritation at kind of the injustice of it and what whatever it is, I could feel you know how uncomfortable that would be for me. And the whole point of it being that actually if you can find a place of peace while you're doing that, um, then it's you know, there's a there's a an attainment in that. Um, but it just felt like torture to me.
SPEAKER_01I'm not very good if I haven't had a food. Any food. I can, you know, I'm I I need to, you know, I can get I can get the swirlies quite easily if I've not eaten. So the chances of me taking somebody's head off would be quite high in that place. But it is interesting as well because I I went somewhere where this lady used to go. I I'm allergic to one particular thing. And she kept putting it in every food, and she kept coming out every morning and going, Oh, I've done it again. But she never gave me an alternative. And it wasn't a it wasn't her being a horrible or thing. She just got completely overwhelmed. She goes, I've put, I've done it again. You can't eat anything at lunchtime, I've done it again. I was like, no, so I'm so sorry. It would be better by dinner, and it never was. And so I found, you know, a bit of rice or a banana or a or something. I mean, I did wasn't hungry, but it was very interesting to realise actually how one I somehow couldn't challenge her because she'd apologized. And two, the fact that did I really need that anyway? Because I wasn't exactly doing that much, you know, I wasn't exactly expending a lot of calories anyway. And I went home a little bit thinner, but actually it served me being a little bit kind of lighter of food in that point, you know. It made me feel more, I was more present in some ways. So sometimes there is that kind of, and because it kept happening, it got almost uh jovial. But it I did have to sit there and think, is there a divine hand on this with whatever that means? Is there a lesson? Is there a divine hand? Is the universe is spirit, is God, whatever you want to put in there? Because it was so odd. But I did realise by the end of the week that something had actually fallen away because I wasn't, I didn't quite have quite enough energy to fight it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and there's there's definitely something in there, the the the discomfort the going against preference or sort of our automatic way of being and that being challenged, the con there's a conflict in that that can then lead to a place of peace.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and does the false surrender to things, you know, where you're forcibly having to surrender, the is that really the gateway to peace? Does that, when that falls away, is one left with a peace in a peaceful place?
SPEAKER_02For more information on the work of Gary Wright, please visit www.therightmedium.co.uk and for Oliver www.oliverbaum.co.uk Produced and edited by Oliver Baum with additional editing and music by Felix. Thank you for listening.
