Veils to the Soul
Season 2 ... Masculinity and Spirituality. An exploration into the current state of the Masculine in Therapy and Spirituality.
Season 1 ... Birthing Spirit in the Modern World. An exploration of what's between us and our Souls' birth, and how the Modern World resists that birth, but needs it - if it's to survive and thrive!
Veils to the Soul
13. Love
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Gary and Oliver discuss love in all its guises. Themes touched upon include conditionality, the risks of loving a Human and the safety in loving God. The importance of loss and the importance of having the courage to make the conscious effort to nurture love.
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Find out more:
For Oliver's Psycho-Spiritual work with Individuals, Couples and Groups, please visit www.oliverbaum.co.uk.
For more information on Gary's work www.thewrightmedium.co.uk
Veils to the Soul, Masculinity and Spirituality with Oliver Baume and Gary Wright. And today we are going to talk about love. We were penciled in to talk about responsibility for this episode, but for some reason on Friday, I suddenly thought, no, I I want to get rid of my responsibility and talk about love instead. But as I'm sitting here, I'm not entirely sure where to start with it. Particularly in relationship. I mean, there's something to be said for at some point we'll we'll talk about love and in in the context of men's retreats and men's groups. Um within those kind of environments. But there's also, I think, a huge amount of, or my this is my sense anyway, a huge amount of fear in really letting go into that sort of a space. And then more generally, just the role love plays in sort of the spiritual lives of men. And the different types of love. You know, I mean, I suppose we could touch on brother brotherly love. Um, certainly romantic love, as I think I've said before in the past, has has been um an alchemical bowl for me in spiritual development, not always sometimes quite difficultly, but um, but it certainly um helped me grow, shall we say. Um so there's the personal level, there's a romantic level, there's a sort of brotherly level. I mean, there can be parental level, I mean there's all and and ultimately I suppose the love of of God the divine um and the earth as well. Um and I I don't know, when people say, you know, everything is love, um, I can feel the truth of that on one level, but there's always a bit of me that wants to say, and you know, there's something more. Um it's it seems almost a bit of a cop-out, just say, well, it's all love, and just dismiss everything else. Um maybe that's just me being a little bit cynical, but anyway. Um, yeah, so that's where my mind is going right now. Um I'm now gonna throw it at you, Gary.
SPEAKER_03Oh, lovely, thank you. Um well it was very interesting because you obviously you sent me this text on Friday, uh Saturday morning, and I thought, oh, okay, that's fine. Yeah, no, I've got a graphe for that. And I was having a conversation with I was teaching trance work uh yesterday. And I thought this is interesting, um love will um collapse, or the feeling of love will collapse within somebody when you realize whatever you love might leave you, i.e., by death, by somebody else taking them away, by the fact it's somebody's choice they decide to walk away from you. And love has to you know when you're really in love, or you're loving, or something is tender to your heart, by the fact that you fear it being taken away. And I thought, isn't that interesting that you know you have to there is that point where often people do have strong feelings for people or situations or things, and and that was totally right. That does that energy does come up of well, maybe if it you know this feeling is quite lovely, but what happens if it gets taken away? Where will I be? And you have to kind of work through that bit, you have to work through that nervousness of it. I think to really be able to drop into a a love where you know that can go on forever regardless of what happens, that there is a connection, and that's interesting about the fact that I was thinking one has to kind of nurture and grow love. Doesn't we think it takes us over quite naturally, but it doesn't. It does require us to be somewhat involved.
SPEAKER_00Somewhat involved, it's a very, very English understatement that I like it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, the my somewhat involved comment. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, as someone who's a bit of a treadore, I uh you know, I like the idea of being all in kind of rather than somewhat involved. Um but I really yeah that that initial fear of of oh my god, what if that person leaves me? The amount of people who you who who probably don't push past that. The amount of relationships, and they can either sort of wither on the vine because of that, or um or you end up you could uh I I wish I could remember who said this, but that um I remember someone in a group talking about oh, I love seeing those couples who can just sit there at dinner in silence, and someone else in the group just said, Oh what, you mean the people who've run out of things that they've got permission to talk about? I was like, Oh and yes, I could feel that too. I could really feel that. But it is is that that it comes back to courage, and I suppose core you know, the French for heart, that sense of being able to step through the fear of loss, and beyond that, so that that maybe there is something there that love can take us beyond loss and and ultimately maybe even beyond death.
SPEAKER_03Yes, I think so. I mean, when I said somewhat involved, I meant something you have to be involved with your inner process, you can't just allow it to be, you know. I'm very good at standing on the edge and going, Do I like you enough to be bothered? Quite often my answer is not sure. That's I don't mean that somewhat involved. I mean, when one's heart does go, one has to nurture it, one has to be involved with one's inner process on that. But I do think love can take but that you don't stop loving something if it's no longer in your physical space. And obviously, the the work I do as a medium, which is really all about that continuation of those relationships, beyond the the natural decline of the body or the natural decline of situations, one is still involved. You know, people talk about you know loving the family home that they grew up in, you know, and and you know, it was sold when you know parents died, but they still have that lovely memory of it. Um it it isn't to do with physicality, it's much more an inner commitment love, or an inner relationship, or an inner kind of something is stable within that that it can be battered about really a bit by by life and it remains. But it's a very interesting one if, as you said, one can't go beyond that initial flash of love, and it it gets too terrifying, and people really retreat from it. Um, it requires a lot of inner work to really fall in love with somebody or something, or really hold in high regard in your heart something. You know, it doesn't, I don't think it just happens to us. I think it does require, you know, us to be somewhat involved, as I said. You know, we have to be involved with with no with tending the garden of that, really.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've I've just got the beautiful image in my mind of of and I I'm clearly going down the relationship route for some reason rather than the inner route, but it is and it's back to the idea of holding hearts, but two people stood opposite each other with their heart centres pulsing, beating. And they are, they have the the capacity to tend to their own hearts, and that then allows that sort of sort of like an energetic infinity sign moving between them and allows them to connect at that deeper level. And it it it feels like a a a level of being rather than a level of doing. And though it needs to be something that is active, you know, we do have to sort of tend to the garden as it were.
SPEAKER_01Um it is about that flow, that flow between people.
SPEAKER_00I'm just sort of look then looking in sort of inwardly. It's a more sort of up and down horizontal movement and up and down movement, and then there's a sort of vertical movement between people.
SPEAKER_03And it's not a time thing, is it? You know, then those relationships are really strong. You cannot see somebody for years, you just pick up where you've left off. So there is something about love that is actually, once it's established, actually very robust. The energy of that, it's very robust. It stands, I'm not saying it stands neglect, really, but it definitely doesn't need to be constantly um in action between two people. I mean, you know, people you you know, you may not see physically see them for years, you may not speak very often, but you know, you can actually come back together and you just pick up exactly where you've left off with a lot of love and a lot of respect and a lot of care. So there is something that that around the energy of love or that it that can it can sustain itself, but it I think it does require a leap at some point of commitment to towards whatever it is you're in love with. And I say that, you know, because it can be a situation or a job or a you know, it doesn't have to be a person or a pet or a child, you know, it it can be other situations that one can really fall in love with and have that passion for and commitment for. But it does require, I I think, a sort of a kind of leap of faith into something for it to really grow. It requires us to really go beyond something in ourselves, and then it's actually quite robust, but but up until that point, it's quite a fragile being, it's quite fragile energy, really.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you're right. And it it does, it really takes that sort of active choice, that commitment. And then certainly in my experience, once that commitment's made, um, whatever that may look like, something just seems to slot into place. Um, and that and that could lead to the ending of something, but it it it slots into place and takes almost a life of its own on. That it I I mean for me anyway, it's just it's what there's a wondrousness to it. There's something quite awe-in small that the synchronicities that can come into play when when love is flowing. Um whether it's from I don't know, a parent to a child or or between friends or whatever it is. Um when that flow of love is is moving freely, real magic can happen. But we I definitely I I'm really feeling it strongly how we have to choose that, we have to make that move.
SPEAKER_03And it's also about there's something about letting it in as well. I mean, this is a very funny story. Um, but I've got this cat, and um the last cat I had um um who was gorgeous, but you were you were lucky if you got away with if you got through a week where you you you weren't scratched, you know. I mean, she just had a the way of being. She'd been, you know, been dragged around through a family of children, and you know, which by the time she came to me was quite boundaried. And then I got this cat, and actually I found the fact that this one is so loving, I actually found it quite hard. It was quite a challenge. I thought, I'm not used to being this uh this somebody's centre of attention in quite this way, you know. And so there's you have to open to something as well. And people often say, you know, to me, oh no, I can't meet anybody. And I'm like, there is no space for them in your life. You know, it's not that people don't like you, it's not that people don't see you. There isn't a space you have to open to it, and sometimes opening to somebody receiving love is actually a bit more terrifying than I think giving it. You know, when we're actually joining in with our um, oh, I really like to spend more time with this person, or I'd like to spend more time in this situation, or I'm really kind of something it's growing in me. We're slightly in control of it, but it's actually when it's coming towards us that we're maybe not, we don't feel quite so in control, and therefore, you know, it can be quite easy on a subconscious level to be really pushing back and not know. Yeah. You know, really interesting.
SPEAKER_00And our loyalty to our, you know, where we come from, I think, with relationships or what is familiar to us is is crazy when it becomes to love. I mean, it's such a strong force, um, which can make choosing something different uh really, really hard. Really, really hard. I mean, and I never forget someone saying to me, um, I really care for you once. And I just I just had a complete blank space of kind of like, really, what's that even mean? And then it took to get them comfortable with the idea of that was even, I mean, even though I'm using the word idea as a form of not embodying it, but um to really allow that in, it was so excruciating. Um, because it it kind of goes against various things I've experienced in life. And yeah, it's kind of new, and it's it's great when we can embrace that newness, but it is a risk.
SPEAKER_03It's the ex it's an interesting one, really, uh love, because I think it's one of the purest expressions of an individual sometimes. And we probably all know where we are if somebody's shouting at us, you know, screaming at us. Anger tends to be quite in most people. I mean, yes, it can spill over to violence, and some people can have a really logical angry argument, which is very hard to move past because it's so logical. But quite often with love, it has a lot of the individual in it and a lot of tenderness. So often, you know, you can love people in very different ways, and their love is received by you in very different ways. So it it is there is that point of not always feeling completely in control of what's coming at you. So it does require to hold you, you know, one has to hold oneself, you know, quite well to receive.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you yeah, you're right. And you know, not in control. Uh there's an element of uh quite a lot of an element of unknown fear of loss. And then there's always also the the kind of you know, I th I think there's very little place to hide in that kind of um when there's a real pureness of love between two people in whatever context, it is actually quite hard to run away. It's is that I suppose it's that mirror that gets held up. And the temptation, a bit like magnets, you know, sort of people come close and then it gets a little too close, and then the sort of the polarities get get uh repulsed. And that can be part of the process until uh and and the feel I've got is when the when those magnets come together and then they can just sit and rest together.
SPEAKER_03Not wanting a sound to sound like Rude Paul, although I have a lot of respect for for they then. Um but you know, there it we do come back to that, you know, if you can't love yourself statement somewhere. It's very difficult to talk about love without coming back to the can you love yourself, you know. You know, where Shenzo where Shenzo show every week on if you can't love yourself, how are you gonna love anybody else? Um uh and there is a lot to be said about self uh because love does require you to be able to accept the difficult parts of other people and yourself. And I we do have this concept of love that it does have to require people to be very perfect. Right for me, often I think it's really the opposite of that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's there's something there's there's something really powerful, I think, to be able to say, you know, I'm open to receive the love such and such has to give me. So it's very much, yeah, as you say, it's it's it's what's available. Because you're right, we do you know, if we romanticize things and expect perfection, the odds are we'll end up being dis massively disappointed, really. Um and yeah. One of the dangers with the we have to love ourselves thing, and I I see this a lot is people, oh yeah, well, I'm just I'm working on myself, so I'm ready for a relationship, and it's one of my pet peeves. Um and I always I I always just like a bit of me kicks in again, the cynic in me kicks in and goes, ah, okay, so you'll be dying alone then if you keep doing that. But there's there's something, you know, we can learn to love ourselves within relationship, and I think sometimes we forget that, and it's not just romantic relationship, but in all of these relationships that we can have with people, and even if it's just you know, some we walk past um in the street or see in the queue in the supermarket, um these moments which could be loving in whatever context, um, you know, they all help feed that. Um yeah, feed the sort of almost like the self-love, but also a bigger, you know, if everybody was going around being kind to each other, you know, would the world would be a very different place.
SPEAKER_03It's interesting because you talked about divine love as well. Um, and I don't I it is a bit interesting thing about that divinity, isn't it? That self-love, but also within that divine shape sometimes. When I say divine, I mean it might be you know, you feel the love of the universe or you feel the love of nature around you, or you feel the love of God or something. Um and I was I found myself in a in a situation yesterday where I was talking to somebody whose faith had taken a plummet, um, very strong Catholic, and she said it was just taken a complete nosedive. And uh I was obviously I made made various shapes and noises to think, well, you can continue this conversation with me if you wanted, but I didn't feel I could ask because I'd only just met her standing next to her, we were standing next to her in a queue for a cup of tea, actually. And she said, yes, she said, I realised that you know my love of my love of the of my love within my faith was loving somebody that couldn't leave me. And I thought, oh, isn't that interesting? That where does that faith thing go if we feel it's only about that? And does that divine love have to come out more? Or that whatever that divine love is in in terms of I don't really want to just put God on over the top of it, but in terms of other, you know, that energy that you know of of whatever people feel connected to on a wider scale. Um if we only sit there and think I can love this so it because I know it can't leave me, and we think that's the only safe space, how limiting we are to everything else. And so there's a very interesting space around love. Of how conditional it can become and how easy it can be conditional in lots of different spaces. Yeah, I mean the relationship between I it's in uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00So that longing for unconditionality in love that most of us carry, and and a lot of us would would love from a uh a partner, friends, and whatever. And actually, I think we we would we want from God or the divine, or you know, again, whatever people want to want to use um for I'll just say God. And um there's there's an expectation in that, and again, there's a sort of almost like a codependency and a transactionality in that that may not be true because it it's a difficult thing to sit with. You know, if we're sat here not wanting God to leave us, not wanting the divine to leave us. not wanting God the divine to make any mistakes and to be ultimately completely unconditional in their love for us. I mean how much of a relationship actually is that? You know, you know, the directionality of and we're just looking for it was almost I I don't know I've got um you know Lord will you buy me a Mercedes Benz buzzing through my head a nice bit of dolly palm. You know that that kind of it's almost quite a childlike view of whatever the divine is so the divine you know God becomes Father Christmas basically.
SPEAKER_03Yes it's a very interesting thing we had a very nice conversation about the fact that she kind of felt this and lost that connection with with what you know she'd come to this point. And um it was very interesting thinking that she was talking about love and you know that you know Jesus loves me God loves me kind of thing and the fact that actually she thought well I've only joined in because I know you can't leave me because she'd had a very difficult time with everything else. And um it was a very nice conversation I don't think we never came to any great revelations but about it. But we did get into a very very nice space in terms of she said at the end I don't know if it matters really because there's lots of people around me that love me. And I then said well do you think that's an expression of what you you know the expression of your faith and she went oh yeah we came into didn't exactly come to anything else shattering but in a way you know it is about sometimes that sort of spiritual connection I mean gets banded around a lot you know love a lot in those spiritual kind of shapes and things but actually it is sometimes reflected in what what one's life is like not saying you know if you if your life is difficult at this point nobody loves you but you know you've got to see it you so love I don't think necessarily always just happens. You do have to look to find it. And it's a bit mercurial energy in that way it moves more.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And what I'm struck by is that is that you know some people would argue um that that sort of crisis of faith at some point and I would I would argue not just spiritually but even in relationships and certainly long-term relationships is is inevitable at times. But also essential because actually that process deepens the relationship. You know it allows for those kind of revelations to come through for that a deeper understanding of the other and ourselves and of what actually is really important. So we're but we're kind of we're kind of back to the this how love and loss basically sit very very close together and almost are interdependent.
SPEAKER_03Yes I think they are I mean I I get that tremendous sense that they are it's often to do with with the with endings that one has the gateway of a depth to into a different love. If things are very set and stable it's often in those crisis moments that there's a deepening of love or definitely a deepening of understanding of that concept really where if you know with working with people as I do over many years it's often that the it's love that brings them to a space lack of it abundance of it questioning it but it's it's often in there somewhere it's never really that far apart you know it's often you know people in grief it's you know it's often about you know the loss of a loved one but quite often there's a curiosity around something to do with the vibration of love in there somewhere.
SPEAKER_00So it happens to humanity and people and individuals and all the time but it has been dare I say it marketed very badly love I think it's a victim of marketing I think love there's that lovely line that grief is love with nowhere to go and I just I I wonder actually I'm really curious with with mediumship with people coming to see a medium I mean that clearly plays quite a big part for a lot of people coming to see a medium but I I wonder does that also play into sort of the bigger picture of what mediumship can be it sort of helps people reconnect with this with spirit but also with love.
SPEAKER_03I mean every I mean every consultation or every sitting is very different. I mean so you're always working in a completely different thing I mean they never roll like one doesn't roll like the next one ever but I think over general energy it works it has to have a vibration of love in it somewhere for it to really work. Rarely are are they kind of successful interactions if people come with a lot of anger and grief is an actual you know anger's quite a one of the processes of grieving so sometimes that happens but it's not far it's not far the love isn't far away under that you know I have had some people come in who just cannot feel anything or you know any any positive feeling at all you know and that's sometimes very that's quite hard to work with but I definitely think that there is a vibration of reconnecting with something that has been very happy or memories that have been very happy and loving really does draw a lot of people in. And a sense of wanting to understand so they can be more loving in that relationship that continues. You know, regardless whether you think you know when the body dies everything else dies. If you're still here and you've had an you know still this side of life as I would say also alive let's put it coldly in terms of bodily form you quite often people want to understand you know what that person went through what the what the stories were how you know want to understand so that love can grow and continue. So this is why I'm I'm a great one for thinking well actually love doesn't end you know situations change but one's pattern of love in them is still very very connected. It's interesting because I was talking to somebody who's um armed has got very bad dementia at the moment and this lady goes to see her very regularly you know pretty much four or five times a week and she says she said to and she she said she doesn't remember me you know there's no I've got no sense of the person um that she once was um you know Alzheimer's in dementia does rob I think families of of of identity of people she said but I come because actually it reminds me all of the things that she was before the illness took away so she there's something you could say she was very much you could argue that you know this is a lady's living in the past and why put yourself through visiting somebody she said but those message memories are very important to me. And reconnecting in with her as she is and just you know advocating for her making sure she's kind of comfortable and safe where she is um was very very important and I thought isn't it interesting that she's already lost what she loved but she continues to really want to support that relationship for herself and for others.
SPEAKER_00It was rather beautiful the sort of the transcendental element of love that that sort of tr transcends sort of human experience but at the same time in a really grounded human way that's beautiful. And I for me as you were talking there's something about faith in that and not so even in you know her wanting to s to hold on to the the fond memories she had um maybe faith's the wrong word there's certainly there's an ability to there I because I I wouldn't say that it's it's living in the past at all. It's more a kind of um a capacity to hold the bigger picture. So you're holding a person in their fullness rather than just that snapshot at the end. And then I know you know working with people who've sort of suffering complex grief they often have fixed in their mind quite uh uh an image of someone right at the the end of their life which can be quite harrowing and difficult and then they they don't have an image that sort of blots out the image of all the other stuff you know a whole lifetime of whatever else was happened. Yeah so I mean again this this speaks to the sort of love being across time or beyond time.
SPEAKER_03And also that part where I was talking to at the at the beginning you know with my somewhat involved comment you know you have to be involved in nurturing that love. It has to be because it changed you know because you know the winds have changed to buffer it a little bit and you have to be involved in nurturing it. You have to join in because it changes you know just because somebody's no longer physically the person that you knew doesn't mean that you're you're you know you lose all connection with them. You know but we're kind of you know as I said you know love has been very marketed you know in a way where we think it's got to be very transactional it's got to be very perfection it doesn't you know we don't you know it's got to be very kind of spiritual and kind of you know never have a crossed word in it where love bounces through all of those different things of grief and a changing physicality and the changing circumstances you know and I remember you know a lovely line in a play and I can't remember the play for the life of me you know and she's somebody says to somebody but could you possibly love a poor man? And isn't it interesting that quite often people think you know they can only love somebody who's wealthy and they're easier to love where actually you limit a whole load of people you know limit a whole load of connections but you know love has been marketed in quite a tricky way where other human emotions and feelings and journeys hasn't been quite so much.
SPEAKER_00So step stepping slightly sideways but to sort of specifically with ma within the realms of masculinity and spirituality what's what's your experiences in men's groups of just generally how obviously we we've talked about archetypes and the lover archetype would be potentially a space where where love could be present but I think it it's it's a much broader broader space than that as well.
SPEAKER_03But I just uh just wonder what your observations have been generally about how that space of love has been been held in groups and how it's sort of just just any comments you might have about sort of the exp your experience of that my yeah my experience of it is is not I can't I wrote I knew you were gonna ask me this so I was thinking about this last night and I thought I mean we didn't you didn't tell me you were gonna it was that psychic moment I thought you were gonna ask me that and I I sadly came to the conclusion that I can't remember when they've been nurturedly held in ways that you know exploring people's anger you know has this very kind of you know we're gonna do it and we're gonna be angry and we're all gonna scream and bang a cushion you know I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that but that's just the I can't remember too many places where that consciously stepping into growing love has been and if it has been there it's been like we've nipped through it quite quickly, ticked the box and well we've done that one. Or we've all talked about love in terms of loving other people but not necessarily the person you sit next to it's there's something I feel in men's groups where actually it's quite a hard place for men to go with each other. And that might be that does it drop into the realms of of you know does it mean that if I'm loving somebody that suddenly I've got these strong feelings and am I gay and and I don't know whether it's that I don't know what it is that stops it or where it goes but I've been in you know groups where there's a large majority of gay men and they still struggle with this. So I don't think it is that I think there's something about having to hold that kind of tenderness through or we do some or in men's groups that have been in it it kind of gets it's sort of um what am I trying to say it you know all that kind of oh my my oh brother and oh oh my my fellow brother kind of thing and you think well actually are we just visiting love under a a a label and if we say that we feel that that means that we're really there but in the crucial moment does that mean anything and do you really kind of want to step up are you really there for somebody and I had a very very sad experience actually I was in this group which I was very very happy in and I got mugged quite badly and ended up in hospital and um sent a message saying I'm not going to be there tomorrow because um and nobody nobody reached out oh wow and as I got I mean it wasn't exactly I mean I did I did end up in hospital I mean it wasn't too bad but it could have been a lot worse but I was there and I never went back not because I suddenly got really angry I just didn't know what I was going back to and probably partly within me didn't want to go back and have the confrontation of where where were where were where were you? But I thought that was a very very loving group but there was something in that moment where just I felt I didn't matter enough and therefore there wasn't anywhere really for me to go. I mean this was probably kind of 20 years ago now so I'm a very different person. I'd probably dive back in there and go, what happened now? But at that point I I just wasn't quite didn't have that kind of nature. So I think sometimes it it it isn't nurtured to grow really it it I think if you're gonna develop that in a men's group it's got to be really given space to grow and that's probably quite uncomfortable and requires you to get all of us to go through some quite uncomfortable spaces. I mean I'm sitting there thinking what was what would that like I'm sitting there thinking that challenge myself so I can see why it doesn't happen but I think we're probably missing something quite a lot by not taking that opportunity.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I'm just I'm thinking back to groups I've I've been in trainings I've been in where there certainly is there's been a space for that and as and often it's the facilitator and their capacity to sit in kindness and love themselves that makes a big difference. And almost as the kind of radical acceptance idea of everything has a place. So everything can come into the room and um that seems to allow things to be nurtured within within the space but that isn't easy to hold. You know I've seen that that you know I've seen that collapse in on itself basically um and people freak out because it's it's so un unusual. Yeah but there is and again I mean the feel of it is it's there's a softness and there's a tenderness to it which I wondered to sort of go back to the men's group the sort the sort of the more warrior energy, the groove side of it. You know if you're hopping from one thing to another one exercise to another kind of thing so one minute you're bashing each other over the head with whatever with foam pillows and and the next minute you're you're sort of sat there um I don't know doing a circling exercise or or or just having a very touchy moment. I mean if it's held well I can see how that can work but it that's a heck of a job for the facilitator.
SPEAKER_03As I said I've never been hit with a foam anything in a in a men's group at all I didn't no that doesn't have but but there's been a lot of screaming and shouting and people kind of going berserk within themselves and and that's you know absolutely fine if you haven't got anywhere else to express that you know better out than in I think on those on those strong feelings but it's sometimes quite hard at that point if that's really you know because we don't see that in society very often people really being able to just like scream and chat and stand in the middle of the room and bellow how easy that is for everybody suddenly to kind of open up because you know it's quite a lot of energy you know you have to kind of you know protect yourself if you're quite sensitive thinking wow and I think often when you know in men's groups there is that positioning of I've got to be the fiercest. But I've never been in a situation where it's about who's the most loving. Or what happens is now I've moved into that category of being sometimes one of the older people that's very hard to be in as well I used to think being you know the elder was going to be rather attractive. But you're in two spaces where you're either people are projecting an awful lot of father energy onto you and sometimes that's not all very very comfortable for them so you get kind of like you dismissed or it's uh it's the it's just you just kind of disappear into the background because you're neither one you know you people just think you need the one thing or the other so sometimes that's quite quite hard or you end up having to do a lot of a lot of the cuddling you know quite often the nurturing person in a circle is me but I'm also the person that is quite happy to say what I think so I'm probably quite challenged in a circle myself. You know who is quite loving all hang on you just throw the facilitator off because the facilitator said something and I thought I don't agree with her. So I think there is this thing of it needs to be really nurtured over a long period of time and actually what does that look like you know and so I I feel that it's really possible and I think it would probably be absolutely incredible you need a group of committed men to say right we're going to explore love towards each other and um I don't know how many people sign up for that immediately. I think it it's it it's a challenge.
SPEAKER_00I mean yeah I mean is it something you could even do in a retreat you know over a period of I don't know three days to a week or whatever I can see how that could develop over a a period of time with a group that meets regularly um but the that kind of I mean is it something that can be forced I suppose is my question.
SPEAKER_03I don't know if it can be forced but I think it can just I think I think the doorway can be opened and people can put their head around the room a bit like buying a house you know go around you think well yeah I've put that there you know that's quite nice and look at that you know you can definitely kind of get somebody to you know go round the space and decide whether that's something that they they're comfortable in. But I can't even remember even in a group which sometimes have run for long time period of time still that would require it to be consciously done not always sure that it just happens I mean the last group I was in somebody was incredibly horrible to I'm incredibly rude to me in front of everybody. I mean it was I mean people gasped um and a guy I got very well with just said to me would you like me to hit him for you and I said but I'm quite capable of hitting him myself although I that's not a place where I necessarily go and I said no but his expression of care and love for me was violent. Yeah I he totally and when I said no I don't he was like oh I don't know what to do I don't know what to offer you now because that had been his world I really appreciated the coming over going do you want me to get him for you because that was his language of life. Yeah and when I said no he didn't know what else to do because he hadn't also been expanded he hadn't expanded beyond himself you know in himself that there could have been any other way of supporting me. So quite often I mean I felt heard and seen I felt I felt we'd witnessed what happened but I didn't quite know where we were and there's that part isn't there of Of where do we go now? What do we expand beyond? In that point. And if we're expanding into love in a very kind of holding seeing way, what what needs to come down? You know, what what boundaries and what barriers and what things need to come down between men that mean that that can be easily easily dropped into. And I'm not sure I've ever been in a circle or a space or a retreat where anybody's ever gone anywhere near that to that great depth.
SPEAKER_00You know, imagine a sort of group that's committed to nurturing, loving presence. And then the image that just pops into my head is is it's a you've got a group, two two guys, people working in pairs sat opposite each other. And and again, it's similar to that image I had earlier of the two hearts just sort of almost sort of resonating with each other in that space. And it is a very soft, gentle space of being. And I suppose I mean I it could be argued that certainly traditionally it's not a very masculine place or not a place that would have been considered masculine. But then I'm thinking sort of the the integration of the feminine i i within the masculine, within men is essential for someone actually being able to step into their the fullness of of being a man, certainly if you you go down the young path. Um yeah, there's this just this interplay. And is it is it easier for I I don't know why my mind goes to marketing. How would you sell that? And would people much rather go and run around the woods and go gru than sit in that kind of environment? Maybe they would, and maybe maybe there's nothing wrong with that. But it does mean something gets missed out, or certainly an element of of fullness within being a man, particularly being a man who's theoretically committed to a spiritual path. Um something gets missed, or committed to wholeness, actually. The the wholeness is what gets missed.
SPEAKER_03Yes, and I feel there's something quite um there's something quite interesting in the exploring that loving energy with other men. I mean, you you find it. I mean, people I know who've been through the army and things talk about, or you know, and especially those letters and accounts around the first world, first and second world war, of people are forming very close relationships with each other. I'm not talking sexual, I'm talking in terms of um closeness of heart, you know. Um, and I think people always doing, you put large groups of men together, they always everybody does look for an ally. And it would be interesting to kind of find that if that's why why people explore, you know, find a drawn to each other, and what else is in there? What else is explored within that space? You know, is there is there a natural kind of connection? Because I think men do miss that feeling um of being it's not a space where you can explore that very easily. You know, there's not I can't think of many spaces in the world where you can explore that really. Um, I was in a sp I reminded of something actually. I was in a space sort of last summer, and uh somebody I know very well was sitting in front of me, and we were there for far too long for this thing that was going on and on and on, you know, the rules of the the retreat. I mean, it was it was like all sitting on this hard floor for about two hours. And I had a backrest and they didn't. Now I wasn't loving enough to give them a backrest, but I did kind of go, just shuffle back onto me and lean against me, because I'm in my back's really bad having all the dancing. And everybody went, everybody saw it because it was a bit of a shuffling in the corner or in the space, and somebody went, um, what a loving thing you did. And I just thought, oh, I hadn't thought about it like that. But the the observation of it was very tender. And they're quite lovely with me, and I'm quite lovely with them. And we do know each other, it's grown over. We are friends, it's grown over a period of time. But um, but again, I don't, it's not somebody I see a lot of necessarily. Um, but this this suddenly this thing that everybody kept coming up to us, going, What a lovely thing you did. Where my sense was this was somebody sitting in front of me very uncomfortable, and I could solve it. So there is a need, and people recognize it and can see it. This was an all-men's kind of space. People can see it. So there is something about people being able to witness it and hold it and be brought joy by it, but I've never known it to be really nurtured. Although, probably a lot of the group facilitated if they were listening to this game. We tried, and Easy's a difficult one. Um you know, but there is something about actually being able to really explore that, and I think it's very, very important to explore explore that man to man, really.
SPEAKER_00I think it needs expl explanation uh ex exploration. Yeah. So I I mean, certainly in family consolations, it it um comrades in arms, the bond between people who fought have fought together in a war is is more often than not even stronger than the bond of family. So the loyalty towards people, particularly people who've passed, um, is is really really strong. Um and you know, that that sort of bond that comes together through hardship um I I get. And I suppose that's not what we're talking about though, here is it? It's much more, you know, how can we create a space how where that bond, that kind of depth of bond, I mean maybe not that strong can be created and nurtured, but without the sort of um well, bloodletting, frankly, um, that can go that goes with war.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think it's you it it would require, I think it and does require for people to be very conscious to explore that energy in space. It would be, I mean, those people were thrown together. I'm also, as you were talking, you know, reminded of a friend of mine who was who um I mean of my father's really, who was down the mines. And he said, Oh, we absolutely adored each other. We were like real, we were we really all were really pleased to see each other on a Monday morning. Because and when we came back out into the light, we were really pleased that we all came back because it was dangerous. So, and they lost people, and everybody knew somebody of somebody who was down there when somebody died at some point. So there was this closeness, you know, real closeness on that point. But so there's something about being pushed through something uh uh with a risk or at risk. So we'd have to, you know, one would have to, I think, consciously sit in it, knowing that you would have to give something up, or you would have to go through an uncomfortable feeling within yourself. Um so I think it's a it would require a conscious effort to explore. And what is that and where does it go, and how comfortable is it? But I do feel there would be probably a lot of gold, a probably a lot of beauty, a probably a lot of uh real um brilliance the other side. But I think it's only get that that doorway is only gonna open with people who are very conscious, I feel.
SPEAKER_00When you say sorry, this is probably I don't know whether it's a difficult question or not. When you say people who are very conscious, what do you mean by that, just out of curiosity?
SPEAKER_03Conscious to to explore what that would be, what love would be between two men.
SPEAKER_02Hmm.
SPEAKER_03You know, you you have to be, you know, you'd have to go, right? I'm having a go, I'm gonna have a go at this, I'm gonna have an explore this. Let's see what happens. I don't think it could just uh uh well, it probably could just happen, but in a in a men in a con in a men's group and met. But I think if you were, you know, it it happens in society, you know, people become very, very close. I mean, that's that just but that happens over a period of time and friendship and you know, it's sharing. If you were gonna get a group together to kind of go, right, what's gonna be what we're gonna find in this and what's gonna be the other side, I think it would have to be, you know, we're gonna do this, are we all in, let's go for it. That thing of showing up, the that phrase I hate that gets banded about in men's groups, things, are you showing up for your brother? But that's really what I'm talking about.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it goes back to that sort of conscious commitment again.
SPEAKER_01And the importance of that.
SPEAKER_00You know, the of love, I suppose, being an active choice. And that you could argue is that is quite a masculine energy, that sort of that active forward-going um choice.
SPEAKER_03And you know, the archetype of the explorer, you know, is very, you know, as often it's been seen as very masculine energy, you know, these people who went and kind of you know looked at other places, you know, then to Britain probably colonized them, but never mind, we'll leave that one there. But um, but you know, people went out. There is something in men that actually likes to go into spaces that are ununseen, untapped, undiscovered. So there is a there is a natural thing in men, I think, where there is a kind of space to be able to um there's an energy that would be able to do it, but it would just require, you know, people to go, right, this is what we're doing, and let's explore it and let's see what happens. Um and let's uh go past something can see what be cre can be created. It would be you know, it'd be very interesting to see what happens.
SPEAKER_00And something there about having the courage to explore the heart.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yeah, and the courage to explore the heart, I think, is the key to self-to uh creating something new. I think if we want to create something new that it doesn't exist, it's the it's in the explore of the heart. And you know, there's that wonderful thing of actually why do we even think we need one? You know, there's a big question there, you know, what are we what are we looking for in that, even in that setting up that space? And I think is we're looking at something that is obviously missing, um, and how exciting is it to step into a space where there is something missing that we can then really explore that and create something. So it's and men do like to build something new, uh, and I think there's a a tremendous opportunity of beauty and strength and love to be um explored here. Um, and it's very clearly there if we want it.
SPEAKER_00You have been listening to Veils to the Soul, Masculinity and Spirituality with Gary Wright and Oliver Baum. For more information on the work of Gary Wright, please visit www.therightmedium.co.uk and for Oliver www.olebaum.co.uk produced and edited by Oliver Baum with additional editing and music by Felix. Thank you for listening.
