E1 S1| Jessica Gillespie on Living with Rheumatoid Arthritis and How Therapy Can Support People Who Want to Find Their Way Back to Connection

In today’s episode of the Sick and Seeking Podcast, I sit down with my best friend, Jessica Gillespie, to discuss her experience living with rheumatoid arthritis (RA), an autoimmune and inflammatory disease. As a Marriage and Family Therapist, Jessica brings a unique perspective to our conversation, and together, we reflect on the surprising parallel of being diagnosed with major medical conditions around the same time. I’m excited for you to hear her story and get a glimpse into our long, quirky, and loving friendship.

Join us as we navigate the complexities of living with RA, offering insights and support for anyone grappling with chronic illness.

Conversation Highlights:

• Recognizing the Discomfort: Jessica shares the frustration of sensing that something is wrong with her body but struggling to articulate it, leading to moments of second-guessing her instincts.
• Invisible Illness: We talk about the challenges of living with an invisible disease and the misconceptions that often accompany it.
• Fear of Flare-Ups: We discuss the anxiety associated with the possibility of future RA flare-ups and how that impacts daily life.
• Medication Considerations: We delve into the potential long-term effects of prescription RA medications and how they contribute to the quality versus quantity of life dilemma.
• Mind-Body Connection: We discuss how emotional experiences manifest physically, reinforcing the interplay between mental and physical health.
• Therapy for Connection: Jessica illustrates how therapy can help individuals reconnect with their bodies and acknowledge their feelings rather than push them away.

Quotes:
“Everything we feel emotionally is all physical.” - Jessica Gillespie

“Healing from trauma is going to give people…a greater access to who they really are or who they always were.” - Jessica Gillespie

Connect with Jessica:
Website

Resources for Rheumatoid Arthritis:
https://www.helpfightra.org/
https://www.arthritis.org/
https://www.rheumresearch.org/

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Transcript

leslie_field (00:03.129)
Hello! Hi Jess!

jessica_gillespie (00:06.862)
Yeah.

leslie_field (00:08.537)
Just, just unless. Okay, I don't like that. We're gonna start.

jessica_gillespie (00:10.336)
Yeah. Okay. Cool. Let's get, let's get, we're going to keep going. We got it. We got it.

leslie_field (00:18.457)
This is our outtake that I can keep for posterity. Hi, Jessica. Welcome. It feels really weird being professional and serious with my best friend. So, Jessica is my best friend. Full disclosure. This is not how I intended it to happen. No offense, Jessica, but you know.

jessica_gillespie (00:24.28)
Hello, hello.

jessica_gillespie (00:29.826)
I know, it's so uncomfortable, it's the best. It's the worst.

jessica_gillespie (00:42.316)
Rude. Okay. Starting off great.

leslie_field (00:45.997)
The universe has a plan and I'm really thankful that we have this time to sit down with one another because I want to hear all about your story, which of course I know a lot about, but even in our chat beforehand, I was learning things about you and I think what we're going to talk about, might even learn a few things about yourself.

jessica_gillespie (01:05.145)
goodness, goodness, I was not prepared for that.

leslie_field (01:09.497)
I know, I know. Well, full disclosure if you're watching this video, I do have a dog on my lap. I have two dogs. They might be barking. This is life, working from home. So Jessica, we are here to talk all about you and your life.

jessica_gillespie (01:21.166)
Yes.

Goodness.

which is so weird. I like to ask the questions. I don't necessarily like to answer them. So I'm all stressed over here, but I'm ready. It's gonna be so good. I'm so ready. I'm so good.

leslie_field (01:35.801)
It's gonna be really, really great. So I want to hear all about your life and your body specifically. What's it like to be Jessica Gillespie in her body with, you know, your story? I'm really here to hear that story about your body. So tell me about what is your story about your body?

jessica_gillespie (02:00.302)
my stove.

Which part? Okay, so like, you know, I suppose with the main part of why I get to be on your first podcast, which I'm so pumped about. And if there was ever somebody that should be the first podcast, it's definitely the best friend. So rude that that was not in your plan, but I'm glad the universe overrode you. So my illness is rheumatoid arthritis. So it started, so when I was young, I was diagnosed originally with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, which is basically RA, but with kids.

leslie_field (02:04.633)
You

jessica_gillespie (02:32.942)
And I feel like that's like a big part of it. That's a big part of my story. It was, you know, growing up, I remember, you know, we were on, we were on orcasis and dance and stuff. I think I found out later at 19 when I was diagnosed that I was in pain all of the time, which I find to be super fascinating because I didn't know I was in pain. Like I knew I was in pain. would go, apparently my mom would take me to the pediatrician all the time and they would tell me that I had growing pain. So I always had.

leslie_field (02:51.139)
Mm-hmm.

leslie_field (02:55.309)
Mm-hmm.

jessica_gillespie (03:01.614)
air quote, you know, growing pains, which you know me, so I'm not like a huge tall person. So like, even after I stopped growing, like you have growing pains, but I never grew in hindsight, which is interesting. But I always I think about that a lot in terms of like my relationship with pain, like I have a very high pain threshold, because like the power of the mind, you don't if you think everyone else is feeling it, you kind of assume that it's normal.

leslie_field (03:02.339)
Mm-hmm.

leslie_field (03:09.145)
You were like, doesn't make sense.

leslie_field (03:19.147)
Mm-hmm.

jessica_gillespie (03:31.458)
which I feel like could be a metaphor for so many things we experience. Yeah, so that's so, I guess that's the short story.

leslie_field (03:31.523)
Mm-hmm.

leslie_field (03:40.811)
Yeah, totally. The baseline, the baseline, like our baseline living with our bodies and who we are and our conditions, our illnesses, it totally changes. So I have, what did you tell me? You did tell me that you used to pass out like you were in so much pain.

jessica_gillespie (03:56.742)
Yeah, yeah. So like my like, feel like my diagnosis story is like so dramatic. And you know, I'm dramatic. We know this. Everybody should know this. I'm known to be dramatic. I have a dramatic flair, everybody. But I also feel like my story is like, objectively dramatic. And it's weird, because you were actually there. But so like, you know, danced was always in pain. Didn't really, you know, always had like was going to the chiropractors. Everything was wrong all the time. had like

leslie_field (04:06.457)
Yep. Okay.

leslie_field (04:15.265)
It is.

jessica_gillespie (04:26.274)
bad knees, but I was so young and it didn't make sense. And everybody kind of made sense of it like, she dances and dancing is bad for your body. And then you and I went to Spain, you remember probably that what was the cathedral we were in? I was like, would remember, don't remember that. So that place, we were there.

leslie_field (04:33.785)
Mm-hmm.

leslie_field (04:40.739)
The Sagrada Familia.

I know. I know. And you were trying to climb up all those horrible stone stairs and you were not happy.

jessica_gillespie (04:49.934)
Yeah, I remember my knee like got so crazy and dramatic. It like blew up to like giant sizes. And then so came home, had knee surgery, couldn't heal from that knee surgery. I remember doing physical therapy and my doctor kept telling me like, you're not doing your exercises. And I was like, rude, I'm doing my exercise. I was doing everything I was supposed to be doing. And that's when I got really, really sick. So no one could figure out what was wrong with me. I was so exhausted, which in hindsight,

leslie_field (04:57.389)
Mm-hmm.

jessica_gillespie (05:19.244)
I was having a flare up. was having my first like hardcore flare up. My knee was super swollen. The swelling wouldn't go down and I was just so exhausted. And my mom would take 19. So it was like, so I was in a junior college at the time. So I remember my mom would have to drive me to school. couldn't even, so then it's kind of spread to both of my legs with part of the knee surgeries. You have to keep your legs straight for like three weeks, which is a long time.

leslie_field (05:31.211)
Mm-hmm. How old were you? Okay. Yeah.

jessica_gillespie (05:45.996)
So I had stiffness after that because I had arthritis, but I didn't know that. And so I couldn't bend my knees. So I walked like Frankenstein. I remember that. remember, and even to this day, if anybody, I'm ever like pulling up to a crosswalk and I see somebody crossing and they wave you in, other people would be like, no, no, you go ahead. And I have this weird thing where if they wave me ahead, I'm gonna wave and smile and I'm gonna go, because I remember being mortified when I would try to wave people across and they would insist I go and then I would walk.

leslie_field (05:46.659)
Mm-hmm.

leslie_field (06:11.011)
Hmm.

jessica_gillespie (06:14.99)
Like I couldn't cross the street very quickly, but you wouldn't tell that when we standing, because I was 19. You couldn't tell that I was having like any kind of injury or illness. And then it would take me like 20 minutes, like I'd like stop traffic, you know, it was like the worst. I remember being so embarrassed. And my mom would take me to the doctors and they wouldn't find anything, tell me it was just like a knee injury. And my mom and I would fight. I had no appetite, couldn't eat anything.

leslie_field (06:26.221)
Yeah.

jessica_gillespie (06:43.022)
I was in excruciating pain. And then finally, I remember it spread to my hands and I went to my orthopedic surgeon and I was like, yeah, my hands hurt. Now my knees are straight. I can't my knees. I can't bend my elbows now. And now my hands hurt. And he's like, and that's when he finally referred me to a rheumatologist. But what I was telling you, and I don't know, I don't remember where in the story it is, but at one point my mom and I got into a huge fight because

leslie_field (06:46.07)
Yeah.

jessica_gillespie (07:11.18)
I was in the shower and basically I passed out in the shower and woke up like on the bottom of the shower and I was really freaked out by it and my mom was so mad and was like, we're going to the ER and I refused to go because I had been so many times and had been turned away so many times. I was just over it. And I think the total period was like six months, maybe a little bit more. And I felt like super hopeless. I was so over it. Finally got to my rheumatologist where they did

blood work and found out that my inflammation rate, he told me, was, I remember this so clearly, he said, like, well, like an 85 year old woman would have like this kind of inflammation, you know, if they were completely like bones all disjointed and damaged. And I was, like my numbers were like off the charts. And he gave me drugs and it was the best. And I loved the drugs. The drugs were the best. Prednisone for the win, man. Knock that stuff out.

leslie_field (07:56.525)
Mm-hmm.

leslie_field (08:01.731)
Goodness.

leslie_field (08:08.121)
no, Prednisone no. I mean, I, but it's fair when they have to throw that in, like they're like throwing everything at you and they're finally like Prednisone, you know, it's going to solve it. However, I don't know.

jessica_gillespie (08:09.58)
It's so bad for you. It's so bad for you, but it's the best when you are paralyzed and can't bend any joints.

jessica_gillespie (08:18.335)
Ugh.

jessica_gillespie (08:22.414)
It's gonna sell it. I was thinking like five, I was thinking five, like was it five a day? I was thinking a lot, I was thinking a lot of freaking Friday Zone. I was so happy about it, I love it.

leslie_field (08:29.878)
Goodness, goodness. When I had to take like one, just, my whole system off completely. I do recall when we were in high school and I remember you, no one really knowing what was wrong with you. They weren't really sure. I mean, at one point it was lupus and you know.

jessica_gillespie (08:36.803)
So good.

jessica_gillespie (08:46.52)
Ever. Yeah.

jessica_gillespie (08:51.214)
leslie_field (08:52.629)
I didn't do any research before we got on this call. Plus my brain is fried from the pandemic. Let me just be really real here. I don't remember anything from two before two years ago. And even in the past two years, I can't remember much, but, I do remember that, you know, these are sort of families of sort of illnesses and conditions and autoimmune diseases, and they're all kind of hovering near each other. And I just remember you going through that stage of trying to figure out what was happening to you. And I, I do have memories.

jessica_gillespie (08:54.84)
this guy.

jessica_gillespie (09:19.83)
Yeah, well, and they always assumed it was, yeah, it was always like injuries. It was always like, it was like, and it was always, I think I always interpreted like that I had a low pain tolerance, you know, that I just was somebody that like couldn't hang or was weak or, you know, like I think I wrapped up my like identity around like, she can't just like suck it up her, poor baby, you know, that's probably what it felt like internally. But then later it was like, no, your body was like eating itself, like your joints were like literally like deteriorating.

leslie_field (09:22.871)
I do have memories. Yeah.

leslie_field (09:42.157)
Mm-hmm.

leslie_field (09:49.389)
Yeah. I mean that your pain threshold was so high and you didn't even know it. And plus it was, I always hear about like when doctors say this, you know, you were already sort of not filled up, but it was already at the extreme. anything else that was on top of it, your system was already done. So then if you, if you did try to dance and anyway, I just, I remember you just, you were, you were so frail and just so, I remember, I remember you in the, I remember you like standing in like the North gym and like,

jessica_gillespie (09:52.355)
Yeah.

jessica_gillespie (10:04.504)
Yeah.

jessica_gillespie (10:11.894)
I know, was. I know.

leslie_field (10:19.193)
Christmas when we were doing the Christmas dance show. I don't know and I just remember this weird like picture of you standing there and you don't look very happy or healthy.

jessica_gillespie (10:20.302)
So weird.

jessica_gillespie (10:27.546)
No, and I didn't have words for it, didn't have an understanding, just knew. Well, no, I don't think I thought anything was wrong. Because the question of like a chronic illness or an autoimmune was never part of it. And so, yeah, I'm right. I don't like.

leslie_field (10:31.725)
Yeah.

leslie_field (10:40.857)
Mm-hmm.

leslie_field (10:48.07)
It's the combination of, you're also young, so you're not, it's like the exposure, how much exposure to pain had you really had? Well, you've had it since you were so young, that's all you ever knew. And then finding the right doctors, that whole medical journey to find the right people is really time consuming. I feel like it's a lot of self-advocacy and luck as well.

jessica_gillespie (11:03.022)
Yeah.

jessica_gillespie (11:09.043)
Yep, totally.

leslie_field (11:11.597)
and then you found a good doctor.

jessica_gillespie (11:12.812)
You know, I love my doctor. Well, I love him because he diagnosed me I think in hindsight I was like me like I let I later ended up changing my doctor and be like, okay this other doctor is way better But but he was the one that diagnosed me and they took such good care of me. Like I remember No, like I had to go in for blood work because I was taking so many aggressive medications. I had to go in for blood work like All the time like it was a week. Yeah, I was just a constant. I was bruised. I was frail It was just it was a bad scene

leslie_field (11:22.905)
Mm-hmm.

leslie_field (11:33.421)
All the time. had like, were like vampires loved you.

jessica_gillespie (11:42.51)
But the office always took care of me, you know, like I'd bring them gifts and like we just like knew each other and I felt really at home with that doctor. And then I ended up moving away and that's where things got complicated. But yeah, navigating all of that is the worst, the worst. The medical field, I don't know, I get very rageful when I think about, when I think about our medical system in the United States of America. I like have actual rage issues come up for me.

leslie_field (11:49.689)
Mm-hmm.

leslie_field (12:10.617)
That's so interesting. have both. I have a lot of gratitude, but there's some really frustrating, not okay.

jessica_gillespie (12:16.544)
of sounds like a healthier place to be. I hate everybody and all the things. All the time. Sorry.

leslie_field (12:20.501)
Stupid. OK. OK. I want to go back to that sort of silent aspect of living with these sort of chronic or autoimmune situations. It's right. It's the you cannot judge a book by its cover situation. People really do not know what we are going through.

jessica_gillespie (12:29.166)
Mm.

jessica_gillespie (12:35.698)
if you have invisible disease.

jessica_gillespie (12:41.486)
Hmm.

leslie_field (12:46.914)
So I'm moving into the category of relationship with your body and illness now. So we're going, we're going in there. We're going in there like take a moment. Full disclosure, I prepped Jessica, I gave her a document that you know she might have some feelings after this. Immediately or later. But it's okay.

jessica_gillespie (12:50.614)
Okay, okay, we're here, we're going there. Hold let me stretch. Let me get into my body. I wanna get into my body. Yeah.

jessica_gillespie (13:05.947)
I don't.

jessica_gillespie (13:09.198)
All right.

Hmm.

leslie_field (13:14.349)
and I'm hoping this can be helpful to you and others who might listen to this. So in this moment like today, Jessica, what would you say is your headline, your headline for your illness? You know, what is it?

jessica_gillespie (13:17.356)
Yeah, yeah, yes, totally.

jessica_gillespie (13:28.862)
I had a good one when I saw that question. My headline. Hold on, let me close my eyes. Wait, ask me again. I can't remember.

leslie_field (13:36.067)
So at this current moment in your life, what would you say is the headline for your illness?

jessica_gillespie (13:41.046)
Okay, I like my headline now. It's changed and it's evolved. And the first word that popped into my mind was coexist. And I feel good about that. I feel really good about that. Like I feel like in this exact moment, like right here, my illness is active, which I've been in remission, so it's not always active. So it's active right now. I am taking medications, fairly aggressive medications, but not medications that make me feel awful.

leslie_field (13:51.459)
Mmm.

jessica_gillespie (14:12.366)
And I say this with a little grain of salt, because it's like for the most part, but I also have my moments, right? I have my moments. But for the statistical, high statistical likelihood that when I feel pain, it's just pain. I can acknowledge it, I can notice it, I can soothe myself around it, I can exist with it. And the moments that are like the...

leslie_field (14:19.767)
Mm-hmm.

jessica_gillespie (14:39.392)
or when I push against it or when I fight it or like for me, know, because of my kind of diagnosis history, like I have probably a lot of shame, like it feels like shame around like an anger. There's probably a lot of anger, a lot of resentment around the fact that I have this illness and I fight it. Historically, I have fought it so hard.

leslie_field (14:50.957)
Mm-mm.

jessica_gillespie (15:04.332)
and lots of fear. live in a, or I have lived in a lot of fear. And I think the moments that I get really, I have difficult moments, I get really scared. But for headline in this moment, I feel like I'm in a good place. Okay, yeah, good place. I'm in good place. Yeah, in this exact moment. That could change like literally tomorrow. You know what I mean? Like I could wake up and actually, okay, hold on. I guess if I were to be really honest too, so like, you know, it's kind of a snapshot.

leslie_field (15:05.037)
Mm.

leslie_field (15:14.189)
Yeah.

What are you? Go for the headline. Yes. What? I love that. I love that. I know. I know.

jessica_gillespie (15:33.262)
in history, but like, you know that I'm moving this week across the country. And so like right now I'm in California, you know, the coldest it gets is like 71 degrees and cold impacts me a lot. And so like, you know, I have these, I'm very excited about moving to Connecticut. Very excited. And also like I have these and I'll have a two story home, which I haven't lived in since I was a kid. And so I'm very scared about having a winter flare up.

leslie_field (15:37.017)
Mm-hmm.

leslie_field (15:57.614)
Mm.

jessica_gillespie (16:01.538)
and having to go upstairs or I'm very scared about slipping on ice. Because if I, I've fallen, you know, there have been times where a very minor thing will take me from remission into like a really significant flare up. So I live in this space sometimes of like on edge, right? Like I feel like I to be hyper vigilant and not do anything that's gonna put me into a flare up. And I just came out of a flare up. again, this exact moment of time, like right here, I feel

leslie_field (16:01.913)
Yeah.

leslie_field (16:13.881)
Mmm.

leslie_field (16:30.307)
Mm-hmm.

jessica_gillespie (16:31.95)
Like if I were to have a flare-up, like it's going to be okay because I just had a really awful one during the pandemic.

jessica_gillespie (16:41.856)
Yeah, but it changes. It changes constantly. Moment to moment. If you had asked me what my headline was in, let's say June, this last June, my headline probably would have been...

leslie_field (16:44.929)
Yeah.

jessica_gillespie (17:00.085)
what it is.

jessica_gillespie (17:03.79)
Like I think I felt really hopeless. I was so over it.

leslie_field (17:06.009)
Gosh.

jessica_gillespie (17:10.69)
and I didn't feel like it was ever gonna get better. But then it passed, and now I feel like it's gonna be fine.

leslie_field (17:11.715)
Yeah.

leslie_field (17:17.703)
my gosh, with everything you just said, I don't even know where to go next.

jessica_gillespie (17:19.66)
I'm sorry, I know, I just like laid it all out. My bad.

leslie_field (17:23.745)
Well, I'm really happy to hear that you are feeling good. And I kind of knew that because we've been spending a lot of time together before she leaves me. Let's just remind everyone who does not know me that I lived on the East Coast for six years. Six years. We moved back two years ago, barely have seen each other because of the pandemic. And she's like, by the way, I'm moving to Connecticut anyway. I'm. That's. But I'm really glad in this moment that you're feeling really good. But that.

jessica_gillespie (17:36.206)
you

jessica_gillespie (17:45.52)
You can

leslie_field (17:54.315)
I don't know. That sort of fear is a real thing.

jessica_gillespie (18:00.75)
Yeah, I mean, you have no choice but to live with it.

leslie_field (18:01.793)
I want to co- don't you want to just- I just want to control it. I just want to just put it just- just my life. Can we do that? No? Don't be a therapist on me. But can we? No.

jessica_gillespie (18:05.454)
Mm-hmm.

I won't, okay, okay, wait, therapist, no therapist, let me get my hat, let me get my therapist, hold on, my glasses, okay. No, I think when I think about that, remember, okay, so in that first period of getting on those aggressive medications and my doctor talking to me about the side effects, Side effects are like lymphoma, glaucoma, like these like really long-term deteriorating kind of side effects. And so I remember being like, are there like,

leslie_field (18:18.934)
No.

jessica_gillespie (18:39.182)
I don't want those meds. Give me a med that's not gonna give me cancer." To which he talked to me about the quantity or quality of life. And that was at 19 years old. I remember being so traumatized by that. I really felt, and I don't know how real it was or how emotional it was, but it truly genuinely felt like I had to decide, do I want to live longer or do I want to live without pain?

And that felt like super terrifying. And so that's why I think it took me so many years to really get to a place of like, okay.

The nature and the course of this illness doesn't mean I necessarily am doing things that are gonna like imminently kill me, right? But like my joints will deteriorate, you know? I was so young that, you know, I will for sure have replacements at a very young age. Like that's going to happen. And I can either fight it, right? Which I do actively all the time, because I'm me and I'm a Scorpio, you know? Like I'm gonna give it a good fight sometimes and I don't even feel bad about it.

leslie_field (19:47.277)
You

jessica_gillespie (19:48.718)
Or I can kind of be in this place of trusting that the ebb and flow will even out. And you know, depending on what moment you catch me in, you know, hard to know where I stand.

leslie_field (20:01.401)
I've never heard you say that comment about that choice. I've never heard you say that. That is really huge. It really is. Man, see, I've known you for basically almost our entire lives. I don't know. What we meet? We were like four or five. I don't know how old. So it's like 34.

jessica_gillespie (20:09.57)
Yeah, it's too much. Yeah, it was too much.

jessica_gillespie (20:20.46)
Nerdy.

jessica_gillespie (20:24.57)
Yeah, yeah, I think we met. How old am I? How old am I? Am I 38 or 37? I was gonna tell, I thought I was 37. You're right, I'm 38. I know my age.

leslie_field (20:30.753)
Well, now you're 38. Let's just remind everyone that she's, no, You're older than me. We just want to make sure everyone is also aware of that, that Jessica is older than me. I'm 37 right now. I just can, I just love that I can always say this to her for the rest of my life. It makes me really happy and excited. Yeah, that's horrible.

jessica_gillespie (20:39.924)
Uh-huh, by like three months. By three months, everybody. Three months, everybody.

jessica_gillespie (20:50.559)
my god, honey, I'm so dumb.

Yeah, yeah. It was heavy. I just remember it feeling really heavy. And I was too young to like, I hadn't done my therapy yet. didn't know. I didn't even have my feet under me from like, you know, 19. You're trying to develop like an identity. And all I had was you may not be alive to think about an identity.

leslie_field (21:17.079)
just want to have a moment to presence that. It's really big. It's really big. And I love you so much.

jessica_gillespie (21:23.222)
I love you. And I feel like this is important and I recognize it takes the pressure. Okay, remember how you I taught you the word deflection because it's so good and I'm so good at it. Also, what's really fascinating. Okay, so you also that's so interesting because I was all happening in my brain because yesterday you're like, why are we best friends? Like we're not we're so different. It's just like we're different. We're different. Like so many ways I recognize that we are weird and that's always fun. But while I was going through all of that, that was after you had been diagnosed.

leslie_field (21:31.383)
Yes.

leslie_field (21:55.257)
I was wondering that, you know what? I'm just realizing we're recording a podcast and I have a heater on and everyone's going to hear the heater the entire podcast. Dammit. But we're really, my microphone is very sophisticated and we'll pick up everything. but, dogs need, I know, know. I don't know what to do right now. Wait, I want to, and plus we're going to probably edit out this moment or.

jessica_gillespie (22:02.092)
I can't hear it.

jessica_gillespie (22:08.264)
so suffix it. okay. I can hear Bear Bear licking you.

jessica_gillespie (22:23.747)
So disappointing.

leslie_field (22:23.853)
Let me just, I want it. I know we're going to keep some of it. I have to turn this off, but I'm also really cold. So I kind of want to keep it on forever. When you live with a chronic, when you live with a chronic condition or I know, or you have a autoimmune disease, you just want to be warm all the time. So maybe I'll keep this whole part in just to, you know, really show people what it's like to be us.

jessica_gillespie (22:33.966)
So many life choices. You need heat.

jessica_gillespie (22:48.278)
It's important. Well, yeah, you're to be distracted by being cold and in pain. I've got my I've got my pillow for it and my blanket for it for the sound wrapped around my knees to keep my knees warm.

leslie_field (22:56.446)
I can survive another like 30 minutes.

leslie_field (23:03.065)
I'm surprised you don't have a heater. Your movie. I know. I know. I know. It's fair. It's true. You would. You totally would.

jessica_gillespie (23:06.956)
I probably would if I wasn't in an Airbnb right now. I'm not in my home. Although I wouldn't. I would be really obnoxious and privileged and just like have my house heater on and my husband would come home and be like, what is happening in here? Why is it still hot? And I'd be like, cause I have arthritis.

leslie_field (23:20.718)
Why is it so hot in here? And you're like, I'm just feeling comfortable. So I know if I'm feeling comfortable in temperature, everyone is too hot. It is very true. So wait a second. You were diagnosed after me?

jessica_gillespie (23:30.604)
Everyone was miserable. That's why you and I also get along. That's why anytime we travel, it's great.

jessica_gillespie (23:41.078)
Yeah, you had, yes, so your kid, so I remember that, and maybe even at the same time, but like in hindsight, you know what I mean? Like, so I don't know when you first went into the hospital, but I remember you, we were scared, like, you know, when you were diagnosed and we were talking about like potential donors and that was something that like I wanted to do and like getting tested. Like I remember all of that kind of stuff happening and it was very, very scary.

leslie_field (23:55.193)
Thank

jessica_gillespie (24:10.83)
not as scary for me as I'm sure it was for you, but it felt very scary to me. And I remember that one of the very comforting things when I was like in amidst all of my illness and like, was clear that I had some kind of illness that you already had something. I remember that. Like I remember me feeling very like safe is a very strong word, but safer maybe. in that like, I didn't feel as alone in it. And that is probably, you know, like, you know,

leslie_field (24:34.711)
Mm-hmm.

jessica_gillespie (24:40.492)
Yes, we're weird and that's probably why we're best friends, but like, I don't know. I do feel like our young adult illness drama and our pain and our fatigue and our like, our personalities combined with having our bodies kind of try to hold us back and our responses to that, like I feel like that's probably why we're meant to be best friends in this life, is probably it.

leslie_field (25:03.773)
I think we finally got there because we haven't.

jessica_gillespie (25:07.534)
And we found it. It wasn't just weirdness of why we like each other.

leslie_field (25:13.003)
We couldn't quite figure it out, but I think we, I love that on my podcast that we finally figured it out. Thank you.

jessica_gillespie (25:16.142)
Yeah. Yeah. We finally found it. We found it. Because I felt hopeless, remember? Like, I felt so hopeless. And like, I remember that time being very dark. It was a dark time. And so I think having a best friend almost be like a light, right? To say like, okay, well, it's super dark in here, but there's somebody else in this with me. They're different, totally different illnesses, but illnesses and dramatic ones at that time that I never

leslie_field (25:42.627)
Mm-hmm.

jessica_gillespie (25:46.238)
I felt alone in my life, I felt alone in the experience, but you were always there. And I remember distinctly knowing that you were stable at that point. By the time I got sick, were, and stable is also maybe a strong word, but you were at least knew kind of what your treatment plan was, you had a sense of what you were going to do to kind of stabilize. And that probably felt really comforting.

leslie_field (26:13.601)
that is interesting because yeah, I'm glad. And I do think that our, I forget that, that when, again, my throat is really froggy today, allergies, million meds I take for allergies too, it's fun. It's like an 80 year old woman when they list off my prescriptions and allergies, it's out of control. I do have to cough. We're gonna take this part out.

jessica_gillespie (26:16.43)
Thank

jessica_gillespie (26:34.572)
yeah.

jessica_gillespie (26:38.498)
Do it.

leslie_field (26:42.595)
I'm gonna start immunotherapy allergy shots though to hopefully get rid of this. Yeah. So wait, before we segue, yeah, we did my back yesterday where they took all the, like pricked me 77 times, 77 times. And they took a picture of it. It's pretty, pretty reactive. And the doctor walked in and he's like, yeah, you're pretty reactive. You should have allergy shots. was like, I know things. So.

jessica_gillespie (26:44.921)
nice. That's fun.

jessica_gillespie (26:52.325)
ew. Ew.

jessica_gillespie (27:01.356)
Yeah, you should do things. god.

leslie_field (27:08.577)
Yeah, I actually do. Now that I'm thinking back, because it has been a long time and remember my memory is really bad, I do remember thinking that I believe at that time that I knew that's kind of like why we were brought into each other's lives. That we were connected early on through our moms and like school and all that good stuff, but this as well. Because how do you, how are you best friends with someone and you both kind of come down with something really serious right around the same time?

jessica_gillespie (27:35.232)
around the same time. actually, what's even funny, because again, the timeline, god, I wish I could like, I need to do like a thorough research of my timeline. But don't forget, so like, so that like, cathedral that I, where my knee kind of originally flared up, so it's very possible I was already in a flare up. So don't, so you and I, don't you remember, we were the youngest people, we were like 19.

leslie_field (27:53.324)
Mm-hmm.

jessica_gillespie (27:57.298)
just graduated high school, going into our first semester, like we should have been partying over in like Spain and Europe, we were super into clubs, we loved clubs at that time, dancing the night away. And so when all these like, you know, now old, know, then old, but now recognizing they're probably in their like mid thirties or whatever, all of them going to the club and you and I being like, we're gonna stay in our hotel room and nap. Like we straight up like.

Napped and they were like old there was like retirees going to the club and we were like deciding to nap instead and for you I remember you kind of being like, sorry, it's just you know, my my kidney disease like you were you were kind of talking about that and Like that was that made sense of why you were doing it and I was like just like it's fine I don't mind but I genuinely was like I don't think I could fucking go if you wanted me to go Sorry, I said a bad word. Can I say a bad word? Where we at? What's the rating on this podcast?

leslie_field (28:46.85)
Yes, you can say a bad word. I don't know.

jessica_gillespie (28:49.74)
Okay, sorry if everyone's listening to this with their children. Yeah, so like in, but in hindsight, it would make sense if my auto like if my flare up was already kind of going and the inflammation was starting like that's why we were so that's why I was so exhausted. And you were sick, but we both felt super like we would nap and we'd wake up and we giggle and we'd like have fun and we'd like should we go like

make an appearance at the club and be like, yeah, sure, why not? And then we'd be like, okay, that's enough. Like, let's go back to our bed. Like we were so old.

leslie_field (29:20.645)
Yeah, we were well suited for each other. That is another reason why I think this worked out so well. Like, if you were going to be my friend who was like, let's rage all night and drink, I was going to be like, no, no, no, no, no. We're going to have a good solid few hours. We'll have some drinks, and then we will go home and have a great night's sleep.

jessica_gillespie (29:29.634)
God, no, no, we don't have anything in common.

jessica_gillespie (29:38.422)
And then we will have to stop when our medication start interacting with it and our stomach hurts, but we'll be just as wild and crazy. Like we're in good time when we're sober. You know what I mean? Like I don't, you know.

leslie_field (29:48.546)
Yeah.

leslie_field (29:52.109)
Yeah, I've never, you know, I'm just not a big, not a big drinker. She's a sensitive little body. She's a sensitive system. So we don't need to add alcohol or anything.

jessica_gillespie (29:54.84)
You've never been.

jessica_gillespie (30:00.92)
Remember, okay, this might not be relevant for the podcast, but just for funsies. when we try it, when we snuck my mom's tequila for the first time and you took one shot and then ended up vomiting, which is so sad because it was probably not because we were young. It was probably because you had kidneys and your father couldn't process it. No, we're not going to do that. We're not going to do that. And then my mom heard us vomiting and saw the tequila and saw and saw salt and limes and was like, you guys are dumb.

leslie_field (30:06.465)
Okay.

leslie_field (30:10.921)
my god, do you know?

leslie_field (30:20.441)
My system was like, no, no, we don't need that in here. We're good. I know.

jessica_gillespie (30:30.764)
But we only got through one shot.

leslie_field (30:32.459)
I'm mad at you still because you know that I still can barely have tequila. I'm in my late 30s and I'm like, just a little margarita, just a little bit, because Jessica gave me tequila when I was too young to have it.

jessica_gillespie (30:45.15)
I'm pretty sure it was like a seven up cap of tequila. Like it was like, it was like.

leslie_field (30:51.041)
No, I think we kept going back into the cupboard under the stairs and we kept like drinking. So we drank quite a bit. Like this is a drink you have like one or two shots. Like I think we had a few shots and I've never had alcohol before.

jessica_gillespie (31:04.384)
Yeah, was a bad idea.

leslie_field (31:07.811)
You're bad best friend. I was throwing up. She caught me throwing up.

jessica_gillespie (31:10.274)
My mom still laughs about it, how un-slick we were. She got you throwing up and like, again, salt and limes. And then we probably left the cupboard open or something. We were like, even good at hiding it. We were so dumb.

leslie_field (31:25.017)
I can't believe you were smart enough to know you eat it with salt and lime. That's really smart.

jessica_gillespie (31:28.152)
I mean, you know, my family knows how to drink their tequila. Please, come out, please.

leslie_field (31:31.029)
I know I was going to say that's probably where we learned it. I don't even know where to go next with my next question. these are some really tough questions. I don't want to ask those.

jessica_gillespie (31:38.08)
I'm sorry. Okay, yeah, do want to get back to your...

jessica_gillespie (31:45.196)
I know, they were kind of stressful.

leslie_field (31:48.459)
No, I don't know if I want to ask them. OK, how about revolutionary or simple mind blowing thoughts or moments connected to how to manage your condition?

jessica_gillespie (31:57.022)
I didn't have a good answer for that one. Simple, mean, okay, can I cheat? I'm gonna cheat.

leslie_field (32:03.701)
Is there a recipe? Is there anything that works for you besides heat and lots of sleep?

jessica_gillespie (32:07.086)
I mean, I was gonna say the F word again. Straight, you're gonna, this is not surprising. Therapy, man, so much fricking therapy. Like go see, like therapy, capital, all caps. Therapy, yeah, the capital. I feel like, because it changes and it evolves and I feel like, you know, I remember.

leslie_field (32:16.766)
Mmm. Mmm. Mmm-hmm. Tea. All caps.

jessica_gillespie (32:34.35)
And it's all trauma related. It's trauma related. Like, it was just, you know, was probably why I don't want to answer your stupid questions today, right? it's all emotional, in my opinion, right? And this informs is like, I can also track in my timeline trauma and emotional pain and my flare ups, shocker, are all related to emotion. Not always, generally speaking though.

leslie_field (32:49.977)
Mmm.

jessica_gillespie (32:59.638)
emotional pain and then it's like a cycle where when I also like I said, I feel shame and hopelessness and frustration and anger and So all of those emotions, you know, if I don't take care of them Or soothe them or have them witnessed They will Destroy me they will take me they will take me down and you I mean you remember these I talked to clients all the time like girl I see you or boy depending who I'm seeing but I mostly women

leslie_field (33:12.878)
Mm.

jessica_gillespie (33:30.186)
is like, you know, I remember eras where I would go, go, go, and I would pretend I didn't have an illness, and I would go, go, go, go, go, and then my body would be like, you're adorable, I win, I have the power, and would take me down. And I see your face, because you actually still do this, and I feel like I'm a little further along with you in this. Okay. I'm sorry. I know. I'm so good at deflection. I'm so good at it. Everybody.

leslie_field (33:47.511)
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Did everyone just hear how she really quickly like threw that in there and then just went back to herself?

jessica_gillespie (33:58.286)
I know, and I want people to know that. I was just going to say that. was like, is.

leslie_field (33:58.369)
I'm rolling my eyes. If you're

If you're just listening to the podcast only, I'm really rolling my eyes. Thank you.

jessica_gillespie (34:07.436)
Okay, so I will talk about myself and also, you know, roll this, look down my glasses and stare at you knowingly, because yeah, this is hard for you. But I was also like so bad at it. I think the only reason I'm slightly better is from so much therapy. And because I work with clients, you know, as a therapist with chronic illness or different kinds of illnesses and have to just like, every day I have to be reminded.

leslie_field (34:12.921)
you

jessica_gillespie (34:36.396)
because I'm having to bear witness to that like extreme desire to push through. But it's not like your body's always gonna win. Your body's always gonna take you down. You cannot function through any pain, whether it's physical pain or emotional pain if it's needing to be released. So, what was I talking

I forget where your original question was. What was your original question? the simple thing. Like what's the simple thing? Like what is the mind blowing thing? It's like fricking therapy, man. I'm a therapist, so I'm obviously biased in this, right? Like I obviously see value in it, because it's like my life's work. there's no possible way, there's no possible way that I would have this relationship with my body or my illness without the therapy. And I love, you know, I love my therapist being able to be like,

leslie_field (35:09.16)
I don't remember, just, ugh.

leslie_field (35:14.777)
Therapy. Yeah.

leslie_field (35:29.795)
Mm-hmm.

jessica_gillespie (35:33.922)
you know when anything happens and she's like yeah what did that bring up and I'm like you know what it brought up you know it brought up all the old wounds of failing out of control in my body and like

leslie_field (35:46.735)
So that I'm understanding this right. So you do think that there's sort of like stuff going on in your life and different things happening and trauma that sort of.

jessica_gillespie (35:55.114)
I believe that, yes. I don't think it has to be the only rule. I think physical illnesses can also just be physical illnesses. I don't think it always has to, but...

leslie_field (35:56.291)
What? Yeah.

jessica_gillespie (36:10.382)
Again, statistically, at least in my experience, it stems from that.

leslie_field (36:11.512)
I know.

leslie_field (36:17.369)
It's, yeah, it's really interesting because I'm very into sort of, you know, the medical scientific explanations for things. And then I'm, this podcast is exploring the other sort of woo spiritual things we cannot understand. Although you are a therapist and maybe there is studies which talk about trauma and how it can actually physically manifest in the body. Okay, so that's a thing.

jessica_gillespie (36:38.234)
There are there's so many studies that is science we can call it. We don't have to call it. I mean, I know we was meant to be the podcast. So like, it's upsetting that there is actual documented science for it.

leslie_field (36:47.331)
Well, no, it's everything. But you know, I do. I'm a little partial to all the things we can understand. yeah, I want to control it all. Well, yeah, you're right. Here I was kind of saying, there's no studies. And I'm like, no, I'm pretty sure there must be studies. Let's talk about trauma and how it can, you know, the different levels of the emotional aspect of how it affects the, you know, the physical, all the places, all the...

jessica_gillespie (36:53.89)
Right. It just gives us a sense of control again. Isn't control the best? It's like,

jessica_gillespie (37:07.15)
Am I supposed to Yep.

jessica_gillespie (37:15.355)
all the places, your nervous system, your brain, all the places, yeah.

leslie_field (37:20.385)
I mean, I know there was a lot of stuff going on in my life when I was diagnosed. I've had medical stuff even before the kidney disease and that I've had. am just a lady who has a lot of medical things that have happened to her. Since fifth grade, I can remember something that I was managing. And that was actually the time that things started happening between my parents. And lo and behold, look at how, yeah, so I do sort of wonder sometimes how that trauma has manifested. And I do believe

potentially in my body. But then I can look at my family members and there's a lot of family members who have different kidney problems. So I think that's really interesting. And then you can go really crazy and go, well, there's also generational trauma that can travel through the genes. And I do believe there's studies which talk about that. So.

jessica_gillespie (38:01.646)
Mm-hmm.

jessica_gillespie (38:05.272)
Yep, yep. Yeah, it all gets, it all, it all flows down.

I that's, mean, I don't wanna think about that, is having children, I don't wanna think about that. gotta deal, I see I gotta deal with my shit so my kids don't get it, you know? yeah.

leslie_field (38:16.429)
No.

leslie_field (38:21.505)
I know. So.

Where do I want to go next?

jessica_gillespie (38:27.822)
I don't know. don't know. I don't have the question.

leslie_field (38:32.547)
So, well actually you were talking about nurturing yourself. So when you're feeling like shit, let's be real, how do you nurture yourself? Sounds like you're in a really healthy and positive place, but how does it look? What do do?

jessica_gillespie (38:45.23)
Maybe I need to be more honest than that, because when you say it in those words, I'm like, vroom. I have an automatic response of like, that can't be true. That cannot be true. No, OK, let's see. How do I do to soothe? So like, I cheat. I cheat a lot of the time. You know how I'm deflecting so much? Like, I cheat. I do the things until someone really backs me into a corner.

leslie_field (39:03.728)
you

jessica_gillespie (39:10.382)
I think the thing that I try to do and often fail is like that grace, right? That kind of like, it's okay, but I'm not doing a million and one things. I don't think I ever feel good about it. I think I always feel guilty, but I do it anyway. And I think that's kind of where I'm at too, right? So like.

there was a time, but I also still like tragically over function. You know, I think, you know, I do all the things because I'm thinking about right now this era, you're looking at me with your annoyingly best friend eyes and I just want to tell you to shut up with your face. But basically, like, you know, I'm moving and I'm sad and I'm grieving and there's loss and what am I doing in my life? I'm filling up every possible minute to.

honor those relationships and say goodbye and you writing cards and seeing all the people I can possibly see and that is depleting me so badly. Look you can see you know my bags under my eyes I'm so exhausted and literally I think it's what I know so like I'm talking a big talk right but I'm like I'm like real time doing the thing right and I remember I literally said the

leslie_field (40:21.945)
Mm-hmm.

leslie_field (40:25.773)
Yeah, I literally see you because I know this person very well.

jessica_gillespie (40:36.706)
Brendan, my husband, I was like, dude, my flare-up's just gonna be waiting for me. I feel like I'm gonna get across the country and it's gonna be this figurative person sitting on my front porch with a suitcase. He'd be like, hey, here to visit. You done? You good? Or not, or not. So historically, I would be all stressed and fearful about it, and I'm not because...

leslie_field (40:43.481)
Hmm.

leslie_field (40:54.091)
Or not, but maybe.

jessica_gillespie (41:02.314)
In this exact moment, it feels mindful and intentional of there's no world that I'm going to not honor these relationships and like say goodbye and do what feels important.

but I'm recognizing how irresponsible it is to, you know, but also recognizing the depletion. And I think that's maybe the difference, right? Is I'm having grace or like not, it's all in my mind, but it still feels intentional. I'm still actively choosing this thing and I will need rest. And when I feel like I want to rest, I will rest. And that may come at a cost or it may not, I don't know. But I'm also not going to.

leslie_field (41:33.699)
Mm-hmm.

jessica_gillespie (41:45.176)
or I'm gonna try not to, and I feel like mostly to be successful into berating myself for it, you know, where I normally would. Or I would push myself through, or what I would really do is I would do all the things and just stay in a really disconnected place and refuse to acknowledge that I am running myself into a flare-up. Like I would just ignore it. Like I would ignore it. I would just be like a freight train into all the things.

leslie_field (41:51.363)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Totally.

leslie_field (42:09.765)
Ooh, tell me all about the disconnection. I know, I know. Okay, you don't have to, but I'm gonna remind you of a quote that you said to me when we were chatting about this podcast and what we were gonna say and what we were gonna say, what you were gonna say, that you said that it's sort of disconnecting from the body when you have a chronic illness.

jessica_gillespie (42:16.43)
don't want.

leslie_field (42:37.099)
not being present in your body and the intolerance of being in your body. And it's very powerful what you said.

jessica_gillespie (42:44.514)
Yeah.

Yeah, like I feel like with any illness, any, you know, okay. So like, and this is what I know kind of professionally, but then personally, right? So like experiencing a traumatic event or a chronic trauma, more pervasive traumatic events, like the, it's intense emotion, so if it's grief or loss or neglect or any kind of emotional pain, fear, or like, or physical pain.

know, joint pain or fatigue. my God, the fatigue. Like, I feel like a human can only take so much, right? And our brains are freaking fantastic. Our brains are so good, right? And that is why people don't always have accessible memory, right? They can't access explicit memory because our brains are so powerful and they go, nah, dude, this is hard. You're welcome. We're going to turn it off. It's a switch. We're going to turn it off because no person or human is really meant to deal with this.

And so I feel like what happens in chronic illness is people get these like amazing abilities to disconnect. And it's disconnect from your emotions or disconnect from your physical sensations. But we know that our emotions are felt physically, right? Like when you're stressed, know, tightness in your stomach or, you know, when you're sad, you feel that ball in your throat or tension in your shoulders or whatever it is. So everything we feel emotionally is all physical. So it's just so hand in hand. And then I think with the...

because it's so much of an automatic response, when you do do that therapy or when you recognize the disconnect, because it also disconnects you from love and passion and excitement and joy and happiness and all the things. And so then you notice that you're disconnected, but you can't always do anything about it. And I think that's what I deal with professionally, right? So I work almost every single one of my clients because I work with trauma or somebody with an eating disorder, like that disconnect is so real.

jessica_gillespie (44:44.974)
and it's so automatic and so retraining your brain or being willing, that's what I'm saying. I don't wanna talk about the disconnect. I don't wanna, you know, I wanna be on the other side. Yeah, don't wanna be in your state. I wanna be, totally, I'm like, yeah, I wanna do that. Deflection, so good at it. So good at it. But it is, is.

leslie_field (44:59.105)
I know you want to be on the other side of this. We know you want to be me asking. I know we know deflection, deflection, deflection.

I know.

jessica_gillespie (45:13.74)
You know, so right now in this era, right, as I'm doing all these things, it feels important to do all these things. I'm trying to create moments where I can be present with the grief and the loss that is leaving the people in my life or the places that I know or just like this home and these and like, you know, being present with like, I'm excited, but I'm also really scared. And I'm also like all these things, right? All of these emotions.

And so like if I'm doing a craft for the kids classmates, you know, do I have to really be present with that? Like, no, I can function through it. but I'm also trying to create spaces to like.

acknowledge the disconnect and tap into it in ways that feel like safe or manageable. Because I'm in a crisis right now, but I'm not going to feel bad about that because I'm just living my life and doing the best that I can. Story.

leslie_field (46:09.567)
I love that you're, you are, it's so interesting because you're so knowledgeable because of the work that you do. But like, cause you're always at other people and their lives and listening. It's like, it's a very beautiful thing that you're taking a moment to really reflect on yourself. Yeah. It's really beautiful and powerful. And it's so nice because you,

jessica_gillespie (46:16.48)
cheating.

jessica_gillespie (46:31.43)
I'm trying, yeah.

leslie_field (46:37.539)
do your own personal therapy, there are the dogs, you do your own personal therapy, you yourself are a therapist, that I love that you have so much understanding around sort of emotion and crisis and all of these things. So I've been in therapy for, there are the dogs, I've been in therapy for a really long time, it's still a very cathartic and important part of my life as well. I can't recommend it more highly enough as well, actually, and it's really changed my life.

jessica_gillespie (46:53.198)
Thank

jessica_gillespie (47:06.422)
And I think it's that connection piece, right? So like, I'm good. I'm good at the disconnect. And I will joke with my clients when they're like, ugh, I'm just, you know, when I'm trying to tell them to connect. I'm like, listen, I'm not judging it. Because I do it, you know? But I feel like therapy is that place that somebody can create a space to like help the connection. Like I, you know, I run from it in my own therapy. I just had this image of like me running from my therapist and my therapist like chasing after me. You will feel your feelings.

leslie_field (47:07.257)
for the better.

jessica_gillespie (47:36.824)
But yeah, it's the space that it's hard to, it's the space to connect. And that's where I feel like the relationships in my life really do that for me too. You do that for me.

leslie_field (47:36.842)
leslie_field (47:45.689)
Yeah, you know I actually, thanks. I really had a big aha moment right now. Try not to judge myself, speaking of non-judgment, that I, you know what it is, it's like you can hear something a million times, but I'm in a point in my life where it finally sort of hits me. Like it actually like lands. When you said that when you have emotions, you can feel them in your body. And I actually was like, yeah. It's kind of like I didn't think about that.

jessica_gillespie (47:50.033)
me. I want to know.

jessica_gillespie (48:11.021)
Yeah, dude.

yeah.

leslie_field (48:14.745)
a little embarrassed to admit it. And so then it makes me understand why I didn't want to feel emotions because then I had to connect with my body. You are, you're really, you're really good.

jessica_gillespie (48:21.57)
then you have to access your body. Yeah, that's a, I know. I'm like a really good therapist. Yeah, no, it's like so, it's, yeah, everything is through the body. Think about it. I mean, think about it. Everything is experienced through the body. That is why a life in a disconnect is not a life.

leslie_field (48:32.793)
you

leslie_field (48:44.109)
I just wanna be really busy and just like forget that I have chronic kidney disease. I just wanna do that every day of my life. And I tried to do that and then my kidneys got a little loud lately. And then I had it, you know, gone through all my crisis and trauma and BS and lo and behold, here I am because they wanna be front and center. Yeah, they were like, you wanna ignore us, but we're here.

jessica_gillespie (48:47.753)
I know.

jessica_gillespie (49:03.126)
your kidneys were like, nice try. I feel like when I have flare-ups, I have this like, have this statement of like, you need to deal with your shit. Like you can run and you can hide. But you need to...

leslie_field (49:22.681)
But it's so, our society and the programming is so hard. It is so hard.

jessica_gillespie (49:26.166)
Yeah, don't, yeah. Rest, like fatigue is the worst. And I feel like, you know, that's the guilt. God, I hate the guilt. You know, the like, you know, especially God, I could talk for a whole separate podcast is like mom guilt. So like, you know, consider that. I'm sure, yeah, there's some other mom guilt. I'm sure, I'm sure there's probably, yeah. But I feel like, you know, this idea of resting and just like being.

leslie_field (49:39.648)
Ugh.

leslie_field (49:46.054)
I'm sure there is another one you can go on to that show.

leslie_field (49:54.503)
Mmm. Mmm.

jessica_gillespie (49:55.608)
my God, saw, okay, know how you judge me for my TikTok knowledge? I saw TikTok last night, which I'm sorry.

leslie_field (50:01.077)
I mean, it's more like I want to do that, but I know that it is not good for me. There we go. I mean, I'm still on Facebook and Instagram. I was like, we don't need to add a third.

jessica_gillespie (50:06.38)
It's a disconnect. know. It's a disconnect. I can scre- I know. Relax. Relax over there. I recognize it.

jessica_gillespie (50:14.888)
I see I'm not on those so I feel like okay. Or Instagram. What was the thing? okay, and it's famous. feel, hold on. It's, gosh, what is her name? What is her name? You're gonna love it. I should have sent it to you. And now I'm gonna butcher it and I can't take credit for it, obviously, but I can't credit to the right person so you basically have to cut it out. But it was.

leslie_field (50:20.567)
You will be.

leslie_field (50:25.026)
Okay, go.

jessica_gillespie (50:38.038)
I didn't let myself go, I let myself be. How good is that? How cool is that? And I recognize it's going to something different, not super related to illness, but I just like love the idea of it, right? Of like, we are constantly given messages in all of these different ways to push against the natural order, right? So is that aging, you know, for women, is that aging? it, you know?

God forbid gaining weight, which we could talk about. Like, you know, all the things, right? Like changing our bodies or, you know, whatever it is. We're constantly told to push against the natural state. And so for me and my body, like sometimes my natural state is fatigue. Sometimes I'm fricking exhausted. And so what that means is rest. means calling in sick or snuggling with my kids instead of running around with my kids or just...

I'm lying in my bed and TikToking, Leslie. Sometimes, it's just me. But it's almost like we need permission, or I need permission. I need somebody to say, hey, you've earned this, or hey, you deserve this, or hey, whatever the message is. And sometimes I get really angry about that. I can do that. I can internalize that permission. I'm tired.

leslie_field (51:43.363)
Mm-hmm.

leslie_field (51:51.577)
Mm-hmm.

jessica_gillespie (52:00.992)
and it's okay that I want to rest and that doesn't mean I'm a bad mom, doesn't mean I'm a bad wife, it doesn't mean I'm being irresponsible or lazy. It just is.

leslie_field (52:12.109)
You make it sound so simple. I'm yes. This is so did I, I might've told you this at the beginning of this year, right before I was working with a coach and I was telling her there was things coming up with my kidneys and some uncertainty, but we were really there to talk about my career. So she was a career coach.

jessica_gillespie (52:12.672)
Well, know, internally and I'm like, this is the worst, right? And I'm sitting, you know, it's like it's hard.

leslie_field (52:37.357)
yet I was telling her I was a bit distracted because of some medical stuff coming up. And I'll never forget, she looked at me on Zoom and she said, you know, maybe this is a year of just being, just to be. And I honestly felt like she was slapping me in the face. I was like, how dare she say that to me? I'm here about my career and all these things that I wanna achieve and I wanna do. And this woman is telling me to be because of my condition, which makes me even more angry because I...

fight against that and I don't want my condition to hold me back and I want to rule the world and do all the things and I really hit me and then guess what this year became? The year of... B. It's like she foreshadowed it and wow. Wow.

jessica_gillespie (53:07.15)
Totally. Totally.

jessica_gillespie (53:19.16)
Yep.

jessica_gillespie (53:24.428)
Yeah. Yeah, it's super powerful. I mean, I feel like

leslie_field (53:35.171)
But it's also really hard to push against because our society and our world and how it's built, it's a go, go, go achievement. Do all the things, be the best mom, be the best therapist, be the best wife, do all these things to be whatever that best looks like. And I know for me this year really, well, cause everything broke down, everything broke apart. It's like, you no longer live in New York. You no longer have a job. You no longer have the dance studio that you used to go to. Yes, you have it on Zoom, but it's not, you don't have.

All those things are just like gone. So I did have a year of being and yeah, it was really tough. And I, well, can I just quote one of my favorite people in the world, Lisa Lister. Lisa Lister, I'm gonna send this quote to you and my podcast so you can hear me say this, but I'll never forget she writes in the sort of weekly blasts I get from her that she talks about how sometimes the most radical thing you can do is just to relax and rest.

jessica_gillespie (54:07.587)
Yeah.

jessica_gillespie (54:28.75)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I love it so much. Which is, it feels so radical. It feels like an actual rebellion against everything we believe to be true in our society. It feels big, it feels major. But it's so powerful. I feel like people walk away from such experiences of that. When you were talking about this year right now, thinking about how your life, the pandemic of forced it, and I had this thought of,

leslie_field (54:33.291)
It feels so radical sometimes.

jessica_gillespie (54:58.542)
thinking about like my pandemic life and I was, you know, I was feeling guilty because that's just, you know, what I do. And I was like, huh. So like this pandemic, had, so I was in remission before the pandemic. I'm convinced I had COVID, which prompted a flare up, but I don't actually know that to be true. But I got really sick and then I got a really bad flare up. And so in the pandemic, had, you know, we were used to working full-time, working, I was working like 60 crazy hours or more.

leslie_field (55:25.259)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

jessica_gillespie (55:26.124)
and a really intensive job had just gotten into private practice where I was working 20 hours, if that. And so it was a sudden shift, a sudden change, but then we were homeschooling our kids, like virtual learning, not homeschooling, but virtual learning. And so we're doing all these things and it felt like I wasn't resting because we were taking on so much. But we also, as a family, learned to just be. Instead of being on the go doing all of these things.

Normally, like, Brent and I would feel, like, anxious. Like, so, like, we'd work all week, and then Friday, we'd be like, spend time with our children, you know, like, do all the things, and then, okay, we're going to the zoo or the arboretum, or we're gonna do something on a Saturday, or see, go to parties, and then Sunday, clean the house and catch up on laundry and, like, do, you know, spend time with the kids and, do all these things. And then it got to the point that we were just always around, and so we could just exist. And just the energy of our home changed so much. And so it's funny, because I...

I was sick, I was super, super sick and was in so much pain and I had to rest, but I figured out how to do it like within being present, which was a new thing. I think it normally would be like rest and shut off versus like having to figure out and navigate being present in my body, being present with my feelings, be present with my kids and resting. And that was like a totally new thing.

because what it would have looked like before the pandemic would be like, I take a sick day, stay in my bed all day by myself, shut down. Yep, only one sick day. Yep, yep, better come back. And I was probably working, honestly. I was probably like texting and emailing probably from that bed. So it's funny. I just realized that of like how that took on a different meaning. My rest took on a different kind of experiences last year.

leslie_field (56:58.777)
you get a 24 hour period. That was it.

leslie_field (57:04.729)
Mm-hmm.

leslie_field (57:18.489)
Yeah, no, I hear that. I had a very similar experience. I was very fortunate that I could be at home and do my life here and take some more time. This is the best I've been able to take care of myself. I'm very thankful for that, that I have the time and ability to get more sleep and still exercise and do all the things. But I love that. Did you say gross? You're so annoying.

jessica_gillespie (57:32.622)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Gross. did. Exercise is so great, but also gross.

leslie_field (57:47.257)
I do like it actually. makes me, well, exercise is a whole nother thing we could talk about because sometimes I use exercise as way to be like, I'm so strong. I am so strong right now. I don't have kidney disease, but I also, okay, fine. But I also do feel really good after I exercise. Sometimes I don't though. And that really makes me mad as well because I get too tired. I know. Yeah. It's just a, it's so, I...

jessica_gillespie (57:53.57)
There it is. There it is. People use it.

jessica_gillespie (58:06.166)
Yeah, well that's also why I have a complicated relationship. Movement. I like the idea of... I know. Movement.

leslie_field (58:16.279)
We could do a whole thing about movement. I write there's I don't even I don't even want to open this can of worms right now because I have so many feelings about movement. I actually really do like to move. Yes, sometimes it's been like a compensation slash like I'm so strong. Nothing will hold me back. We know. OK, but I also need it. And there's this like fine, fine kind of area I need to be in. And I don't really know what I'm going to.

jessica_gillespie (58:17.262)
Yep. Yep.

I was like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yep, mm-hmm. It's like a thing.

leslie_field (58:41.773)
go out of that comfortable area and then be really tired after. And then I get so mad because I'm so tired, but I'm like, but I needed to do that, but maybe I did too much. Maybe I didn't. Anyway, we're not going there. this is, and we're like way over time, but that's okay. We're gonna wrap this up in 10 minutes and I'm gonna cut out some stuff here and there. So the whole sort of...

jessica_gillespie (58:49.858)
Yep, all of that, so much.

jessica_gillespie (59:01.9)
Okay.

leslie_field (59:09.209)
One of the reasons behind this podcast is to hear the stories of women and sort of what's going on in their bodies and sort of the story of their illness, their condition and what it's really like to experience that, but also to maybe explore healing. I really want to talk to different people about what healing looks like and have different ideas about that, because maybe people can listen to this podcast and they'll hear something that really feels right to them. They're like, well, I to try that. Maybe it can bring them a little bit of healing. So along that vein,

I wanted to know if you believe in miracles, do you believe in miraculous healing?

jessica_gillespie (59:44.28)
I I believe, I mean, I believe you, I don't know why I'm saying you know, Leslie, but I will share it with the world and who you were recording for. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I believe in.

things, many things that are far greater and far more knowing than I am.

I do believe that, you know, I believe you were in my life for a reason that I didn't always know. And I believe that, you know, I said earlier that like, okay, I need to deal, I need to deal with my stuff, right? I need to deal with my trauma, I need to do all these things. And that's part of probably how I have arthritis. But I also feel like those, I personally believe that a lot of my story was always meant to be. Like who I am in the world.

Like I really do believe that people have purposes and those purposes are sometimes on a large scale and sometimes they're on a really small scale. I love the work that I do and you know, I feel very deeply about the connections that I have with like friends and family and just like people, my clients and those connections oftentimes feel so much more important than what I can be like.

consciously make sense of if that makes sense so like And that's where I feel like

leslie_field (01:01:09.273)
Mm-hmm.

jessica_gillespie (01:01:16.472)
the miracle is, like the miracles are.

jessica_gillespie (01:01:22.638)
the push and the pull of where we're supposed to be and when and how. And I don't, you I'm not a believer in kind of like this like, you know, positive psychology spin of like, everything happens for a reason. I would never tell somebody that, right? Everything happens for a reason, because I find that to be invalidating and kind of jerky of like, you went through this really hard thing for a reason. I kind of want to give the middle finger to you, like, I don't care about that, because I went through this hard thing and I want you to acknowledge I went through this hard thing. And also, I believe that for me,

My understanding and knowledge of pain and suffering or disconnect gives me an ability to connect with other people on a totally different level. And sometimes I can make sense of that in my brain of like, yeah, I'm offering this thing. And sometimes I can't. And that's what you and I were talking about, right? Before we found it on this podcast, you and I were like, why are we best friends, right? But we were, we were best friends right away.

And there's a comfortability that doesn't feel conscious, like with you and I, right? Like, you know, I wrote in your card, right? Like our souls know each other and I believe very strongly about that. And I can feel it, you and I are both very intuitive people. And sometimes I meet people and they're in my life in some form and I can feel it in my soul almost, that that is meant, that that is meant to be.

leslie_field (01:02:46.233)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

jessica_gillespie (01:02:49.486)
And I'm not, you I don't have any great gifts around, you know, any like great alternative gifts, like I guess I have anything, but it still feels so true. So yeah. I've got gifts, but that's just not one of them, you know what I mean?

leslie_field (01:03:02.381)
You do have many gifts as a therapist, it's so, it's, but I, but no, it's born out of sort of your experience and your knowing and hello, I'm doing a podcast to talk to other women about something I know a lot about, which is managing a medical illness that just keeps on going. So, and I think it's really beautiful that you recognize the power of those connections, maybe just because we're getting older. I believe that too.

Sometimes I can feel really disconnected and sort of lonely these days as I try not to potentially catch COVID or colds or flus. And when I get voice notes or if I'm on a conversation like this, it really fills my heart up. And I never, don't know if I really recognized that before because of maybe that hustle and bustle and the, I gotta go to work. I gotta do the things. Yeah, I can really feel it more potently as well these days.

jessica_gillespie (01:03:34.286)
Yeah. Yeah.

jessica_gillespie (01:03:39.598)
Totally.

jessica_gillespie (01:03:51.309)
disconnect.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And you and I are both like pointing right here, like that, you know, that's, so you know how you're just learning that like our emotions are felt in our bodies. So is our intuition. That's why intuition is your gut, right? So both of us are like, we're both pointing like to our like sternum. And I feel like that's the knowing, like the knowing for me sits like right here in my body. And, and that disconnect, you can't know in that disconnect. And the hustle and bustle is a disconnect, right? So like, I think part of, yeah.

leslie_field (01:04:16.738)
Yeah.

jessica_gillespie (01:04:26.584)
I'm sorry. Yeah, like, yeah, I'm like, hmm.

leslie_field (01:04:27.907)
Fine, fine. I loved being so busy at my old job though. I was so good at it and I was like, people thought I was good and I knew I was good and then it all had to just explode.

jessica_gillespie (01:04:33.534)
I know. I believe you. You know.

I mean, I like to imagine I was good at my intense job, too. I don't know if I was, but I like to imagine that I was good at my intense job. But that's also because what it's a is a disconnect. You can't power through that in a way that keeps you grounded and present. I mean, I was super present for other people. I know. I know. I'm sorry.

leslie_field (01:04:52.205)
Mmm.

leslie_field (01:04:57.987)
So mad at you.

so mad at you for saying that. I'm gonna pull that quote out and love it a little bit. Well, we know that you're a therapist. We know that you have a husband. I think you mentioned your little kiddos there, little kitties. What does, you know, what does joy and happiness and the fullness of your life, you know, you've already spoken about it a little bit. You're moving, like who is Jessica? Like, I don't know, just what brings you joy and happiness?

jessica_gillespie (01:05:09.794)
Yeah, do. Yeah, I've got children, children.

jessica_gillespie (01:05:24.83)
God.

Okay, so when I read your question earlier and I was like, okay, I wonder what my answer would be. I try to just stick with the instinctual one and I was super fascinated by my instinct. Because my instinct was what brings me joy. And I've talked about it just a little bit right now, is my connection to others. I love connection. I'm not gonna say all people because I'm a Scorpio and I don't love all people. But I love a lot of people. And I love connection.

leslie_field (01:05:38.541)
Mm-hmm.

jessica_gillespie (01:05:57.292)
And then I was so surprised by that. Like I literally like made like a weird reaction and like took a step back because I'm such a hardcore introvert. Like I'm so introverted. I love being, I love me. I love me and I love being by myself and like alone in the middle of nowhere. Like so my favorite pastime, right? Which I haven't done pandemic life, although I could. Anyway, is...

I love to go into a restaurant with my favorite food and I'm somebody that can sit and order a glass of wine and get my favorite appetizer and a meal and a dessert and just be with myself and that's the best. I don't need to read a book. I don't need to scroll through anything. I don't even need to people watch that much even though I probably do. Just exist and that's my happy space. That's everything. And so for somebody who loves to be alone, I...

leslie_field (01:06:36.281)
Mm-hmm.

jessica_gillespie (01:06:48.376)
create such a life of connection with others and it's very fascinating. I find that to be very confusing to my identity crisis right now. I like both. Yeah, I like both. I also am really, know, my joke is that I'm really good at finding people in my life that are good at staying connecting because I think if it were to be in my shoot, like I don't know that I would reach out as often as I should or I don't know that I would.

leslie_field (01:06:57.163)
You like both. You like both.

jessica_gillespie (01:07:16.012)
like stay in touch with people. I, you know, we've had like our group of friends. The fact that we have been friends since kindergarten is crazy. We have eight women who have stayed just as connected through all of childhood and adulthood and families. And it's weird. So think I'm really good at picking people that are good at connection. Like I don't know that I'm good at connection, but I value it. So I think I peak people who are good at connection. And then I like participate in their. Right. You know,

leslie_field (01:07:36.953)
Mmm.

leslie_field (01:07:45.113)
I like that. Yes. You're a very multifaceted woman. Well, and that's what I meant to ask about this question was really to get at the heart at you're not just Jessica with RA, you know, and you love your connection and you have a very busy job, actually. It's very funny. You seem really intense now in life and I seem more like, no, you were intense before. You've had just...

jessica_gillespie (01:07:45.974)
I cheat. Yeah. Thanks. I guess so.

jessica_gillespie (01:08:03.968)
And

jessica_gillespie (01:08:10.882)
think I'm less intense in this exact moment, but I can feel my intensity airing up as my practice is growing and I need to have better boundaries. This is really, thank you for that reminder very much. Yeah.

leslie_field (01:08:14.604)
Yeah.

leslie_field (01:08:19.075)
There we go. There it is. No, it's so interesting. I like getting older. And you know what? had this whole fantasy of me going to a restaurant by myself last night. And then I was foiled because the place I wanted to go was closed. So it's really funny that you said that because I forgot about the joy that I have of doing that as well. There comes a certain point maybe in your life or maybe when you're a little younger, some people feel a little more nervous. I did. And as I got older, I'm like, no, no.

jessica_gillespie (01:08:31.265)
rude.

leslie_field (01:08:46.676)
I love that I could just go in a restaurant and just do my thing.

jessica_gillespie (01:08:49.386)
Yeah, I think I'm a very hedonistic person I'm realizing too, like the pleasures. very... Yeah, I didn't know this about myself until this exact moment, but we're making these motions with our hands of just like this, but that's the connection to the body, right?

leslie_field (01:08:54.551)
Yeah, you seem like, yeah, I was gonna say that. Yes. Like, what? Me too, I...

leslie_field (01:09:06.121)
I was going to say, I see you there, like taking in with all your senses. Like when you talked about that and like you're because Jessica is my friend who historically has been very like mellow and like slow moving and like kind of daydreamy. Like I could see that's just very perfect for you. You're just like soaking in all the the wine and the flavors and like your mind. And then your mind gets to like daydream for a moment, but then you get to take in all the food that you're. Yeah.

jessica_gillespie (01:09:09.473)
Totally.

jessica_gillespie (01:09:19.438)
I'm very easily.

jessica_gillespie (01:09:24.147)
Yes! Yes! Mindful eating is... I'm bad!

jessica_gillespie (01:09:34.894)
right. I, know, it's a good reminder because I, I'm like, I'm vaccinated. I totally be doing that now, but I just haven't made time for it. It's a good reminder, but like, yeah, like I love it so much, but like texture, you know, this blanket that I've got is so soft and I love soft textures and like eating, you know, you know how slow I eat. I'm like, it takes me like nine hours to eat a meal.

leslie_field (01:09:35.853)
Yeah, that's... I see you doing that. It'll happen. It'll happen. Again.

leslie_field (01:09:49.454)
Yeah.

leslie_field (01:09:53.398)
You

leslie_field (01:09:57.937)
my God. God. Never play, just for anyone, if you were ever a child with Jessica, never play like make believe. It's just, she just doesn't want to participate. She's like chilling, like.

jessica_gillespie (01:10:05.646)
Hey, hold on. No, it's not make believe. It's not make believe it's Barbies Barbie. Sorry, hopefully you're not sponsored by Barbie right now because I never to this day. I do not understand people who play with like I don't get it. What is the point? I don't understand.

leslie_field (01:10:14.551)
Does it matter?

Thank

No, this wasn't just Barbie. She would just be like in the pool, just like looking up at the sky and then asking questions along the lines of, why is the sky blue? And I don't know why we're friends. Okay. We're gonna, I know, well, it goes back to us being really weird. We're really weird. Okay.

jessica_gillespie (01:10:27.896)
floating.

jessica_gillespie (01:10:33.166)
Thank

jessica_gillespie (01:10:37.742)
Very inquisitive.

jessica_gillespie (01:10:44.174)
We're so weird. remember? Remember? What was the, a Cheerio? What was the stupid Cheerio?

leslie_field (01:10:52.281)
Cheerio. It's cheerio. We made capes out of cheats and we kicked a ball. Cheerio.

jessica_gillespie (01:10:55.596)
We made capes and then kicked a ball and we said, Cheerio. We must have known you were going to live in the UK because we had no idea, we were a Brit.

leslie_field (01:11:04.247)
I know. And that I was going to marry an English guy. I don't really know. People don't play Cheerio with the kickball. just say, I don't even know if they say Cheerio.

jessica_gillespie (01:11:13.518)
I don't have any memory of where we got that from. Like our souls just knew.

leslie_field (01:11:18.541)
We're like, cheer, and I remember we had our little things on and we'd like take a little step and kick the ball. go, cheerio.

jessica_gillespie (01:11:19.416)
with a Cheerio!

jessica_gillespie (01:11:23.798)
Here we go! Hello! And then do it again! And again! And it made no sense. It was the dumbest game.

leslie_field (01:11:31.129)
That was just that was the extent of Jessica's Make believe you know it I'll take it. have good memories. Okay two last questions What would you tell your former self when preparing for living with RA?

jessica_gillespie (01:11:38.414)
Yeah. All right. OK.

jessica_gillespie (01:11:48.152)
before my flare up or during.

leslie_field (01:11:52.257)
Before yeah, Gosh Before even yeah nothing like you Know knowledge Is there anything you would tell your younger self That you could maybe offer from now and what you've learned and on this journey

jessica_gillespie (01:11:54.286)
I don't know what my separate answers would be. Okay, nothing. No knowledge.

jessica_gillespie (01:12:12.536)
So I think...

jessica_gillespie (01:12:16.748)
would want to hear or would want me to hear is obviously some reassurance right of like don't worry like it's gonna be okay so so like hey don't worry and some flavor this sounds like weird and cryptic and I'd probably ask so many questions about it knowing me like what but I probably want to communicate in some way like you are going to be more you

leslie_field (01:12:37.561)
You

jessica_gillespie (01:12:46.124)
than you think or like, I just remember and probably because it was the time, right? This idea that like, I was my illness. Like that was who I was. I was somebody that was sick or I was gonna be a disabled person or I was going to be, and I still might be, right? Like I might be disabled. I think I, in that era, I remember just having so much fear of who I was because of also like the developmental stage I was probably in.

And now as I'm reflecting like in this podcast of just like where I'm at and like, and like the good moments and the bad moments and the dark moments and the moments of light and this.

this like sense of safety I feel that like I can be in both of those places and still be me. Like I am me. And I can be me in the dark and I can be me in the light and I can be me in relationship to others. And I think that that is so much a part of what feels manageable now.

versus then, where I didn't feel like I could be me, or I was confused about me, or the impact of all these external things on me. And I feel like that's also trauma, right? Like, people who've survived things have this idea that their trauma is who they are, and it's not. But healing from trauma is going to give people like a greater access to who they really are, I think.

leslie_field (01:13:59.757)
Yeah.

leslie_field (01:14:21.155)
Hmm.

jessica_gillespie (01:14:21.974)
or who they always were also.

leslie_field (01:14:25.176)
Yeah.

leslie_field (01:14:28.611)
Wow.

And then if anybody who's listening or who maybe knows someone who might be in a similar situation with a diagnosis they don't quite have yet, or maybe they are diagnosed with RA or maybe in the future it might be something that they find out they do have, what would you maybe tell someone in a similar position? Would you tell them something similar or something a bit different?

jessica_gillespie (01:14:55.01)
Yeah, I think I'd want...

Like it's journey and it's hard, but the ebb and flow, like I, you know, I think I said this earlier, like I feel like the ebb and flow of everything and feeling soothed and comforted that like nothing in this process is going to be permanent. Like that darkness, right? Like the darkness will pass, it'll come back, but it'll also pass. And I think that having some level of...

leslie_field (01:15:19.929)
Mm.

jessica_gillespie (01:15:28.81)
understanding that it changes constantly is okay and that there's people, like there's people that will help and be in it with you. And I think that like, we didn't talk about it, but it's so much isolation, right? So like that's something that I do, right? It's because I love being alone, but also I isolate. And so I think that like, there was always people there. And I think humanity, there's always people there, but you have to kind of be willing to find them.

And I think I want to be that person for people, right? Like that's why I'm a therapist or that's why I'm on your podcast, right? Of hoping that somebody hears this and goes like, yes, and then sees the different pieces, relate to it, and also know that like it'll change and their story will change and their identity will change. And their identity won't change, but their understanding of identity will probably change and it's going to be okay.

leslie_field (01:16:26.637)
Hmm, yes. Thank you for that. Thank you for sharing that. And thank you for sharing everything.

I'm, that is the hope of this, that one person's going to listen, whether, you know, I hope that you're gonna take something away from this conversation. I hope that people who are listening might take something away from this conversation. Even if it's that one sentence, that one quote, if it can help you get through those times of really darkness, isolation, depression.

because those waves can feel really overwhelming. I call them tsunamis. They're so big sometimes. When, and that's what's sort of scary because we're so good at disconnection that finally when your body's like, no, this needs to happen, it can feel really big, just all encompassing. And it can be really, really difficult to not have that judgment and the guilt and you know, to sort of just be okay with nurturing yourself in that moment. It's not, it's not easy.

jessica_gillespie (01:16:59.96)
Okay.

leslie_field (01:17:25.675)
And so I'm just really thankful that we had this conversation and I hope that it can help not just ourselves, because I got a lot out of this, but I hope some other people will get stuff from this too.

jessica_gillespie (01:17:35.404)
Yeah. And there's constant failure, which I'm like now in hindsight, like I hope I expressed enough that I failed constantly in doing all these healthy things, know, failing all the time, all the time, like all the time.

leslie_field (01:17:50.349)
All the time. call it, I mean, I kind of self-sabotage and sometimes I don't and sometimes it's just like, I don't know. I just.

jessica_gillespie (01:17:57.014)
Just fucking winging it, man. Just like, you know, doing the best you can and recognizing that sometimes that best isn't like, is not enough. Like, hope, I hope whoever, I hope I communicated that enough of like, it's, you know.

leslie_field (01:18:07.075)
Thank you. Yes. Yeah. You're like, I did all the things. I took the rest. I had a lot of water. I ate vegetables and I steal.

jessica_gillespie (01:18:15.566)
I cried to a therapist and I still am miserable and I still want to give up on life and it's still really dark and I hate it all. Yeah, like that still is there.

And in that darkness, I don't know that it's to

leslie_field (01:18:28.727)
Yeah, I'm glad you said that.

leslie_field (01:18:35.705)
It does, but we never know quite when. And trying to put a time limit on it and like, okay, I will take one sick day or I have two hours to get better or it doesn't always work like that. I try to convince myself and the body will always take its time. It's like, okay, we're gonna ignore ourselves for this time period. Don't worry, I'm coming. I'll wait for you.

jessica_gillespie (01:18:44.654)
It never works that way. Ugh.

jessica_gillespie (01:18:58.254)
As will the universe man. As will the universe man. Can't.

can't force anything. But thank you. Thank you for having me on your first PAH, because I'm so proud of you. And I hope this gets to people. And I'm so excited that you are doing this. And it's such an amazing piece. And I love you so much. And I'm glad that our souls are sick.

leslie_field (01:19:09.849)
Thank you.

leslie_field (01:19:17.561)
Thank you.

jessica_gillespie (01:19:21.198)
Yeah, so good. So good.

leslie_field (01:19:22.667)
I love you too. I'm so glad our souls are sick and seeking. It's awesome. It's great. It's so great. I love you. I'm gonna push stop now. But don't leave. You can't leave yet. Okay.

jessica_gillespie (01:19:29.816)
I love you so much. Okay.

jessica_gillespie (01:19:36.078)
Okay.