How I Graduated College DEBT-FREE | Real Advice for Teens Starting Life

Want to graduate college debt-free? Meet Zoe Mann — a 21-year-old who did just that. In this episode of the Hoel Truth Podcast, Zoe returns to share her powerful story of how she beat the odds, worked through college, and graduated without a penny of debt.

Whether you're a high school student, a parent, or just trying to reset your financial future, this conversation is packed with real talk, practical tips, and financial wisdom.

Be sure to check out Part 2 going live on July 11th!

Transcript

From a debt free business owner to a recently debt free college graduate - What are three tips that you would give to anybody starting life after high school?

Make a budget. Absolutely, make a budget. Show up to work on time and quit buying things that you don't need.

Welcome to this edition of the Hoel Truth podcast! Today, I believe this is the first time we've had a guest back. Miss Zoe Mann.

So the reason, I wanted to have Zoe back was, you know, if you listen to us at all, if you know me at all, Dave Ramsey, debt free, blah, blah, blah, and some people get annoyed with it, but, she went through college debt free. And I always hear people say, I can't do it. So, like, I've been we've been staying in touch over the last few years, and then you reached out.

You're like, hey, I'm done. I've done this. And I was like, all right, let's get in. The podcast took us a little longer than I wanted to, so I guess I just want to talk a little bit about that just because, like, I was stressing the importance to two 17 year old boys working for me, and I was talking to.

Good. I'm glad you were the one guy's dad. And he's like, hey, Blake came home and said you told him he needs to save his money. I was like, yes, because Blake's like, I need a diesel truck. And I was like, you're 17 years old. You don't need a damn diesel truck, Blake. So take some time. Kind of tell us, how you got there, because, like, I want you to share that you actually worked,

Because I know there's an illusion out there that you don't have to work to do that, but, you know, you know, you've - It does happen for some, but. Right, right. On the diesel truck thing, though, I know I always like I always like the boys. I had the diesel trucks and stuff. And so I know one day I'm going to have a son and he's going to come home, be like, I need to - I need $10,000.

So I can buy. I need this money. I know I'm going to fight it one day. I, I'm preparing myself mentally already, but, I'm Zoe, I, I'm 21. I graduated debt free. I have my bachelor's degree in business administration. I'm so proud of it. I, I yeah, it was not. It was I sat down with my girlfriends as Courtney Jackman was one of them.

And my friend Annika Marlow. Oh, we've got it. You gotta hang out with better people. But we'll have that conversation. Like, we were sitting down and they were like. And I was like, I'm like, really proud of myself. And they're like, yeah, you should be like. And Courtney's joking. And she goes, this wasn't always like in the cards for you, like a year.

Okay, so I got to tell a quick story on Courtney. So when me and Emily start doing our debt snowball, 12.5 years ago. So how old are you? I'm 21. So Courtney is 21, 22. So Courtney was about 10 or 11 at that time. Yeah. Okay. And me and Emily went back to dumb phones because at that time, like that's so cool.

Bill difference was like it was half. That’s insane! And I remember flipping out my my dumb phone and Courtney was probably 11 or so at that time. And here she has a smart fan. And here's a little Courtney and I love you. And you know this Courtney. But she started her mouth and her mouth and I thought doctor Rob was going to knock her out because he was so proud of what we were doing.

Yeah. And he was old enough to kind of respect it. And there's Courtney just over there flapping her jaws and like, it didn't offend me because I was to the point, though. But nobody could annoy me on that. Like I wanted it so bad. But yeah, that's that's my funny story with Courtney. We can laugh about it now, and me and Courtney can laugh about it now.

But I went through middle school with her. Yeah. So I had the worst of the mouth. Oh, I, I believe it, I believe it, but I love her. I love her to death. But. So we were sitting there and she was, her and Annika both were like, you should genuinely be proud of this. Like this is a big deal. Like they were like, you know, you Courtney mentioned, you know, she said, like, you know, I got help, like, but I knew like, you know, if I want to go to college, like I could just go to college.

Like, it wasn't like you didn't know that you were going to do that. And also, I was I had really bad grades in high school, like, I. Courtney, I told her I'd give her a shout out. She's the reason I passed algebra two. She sat next to me. The whole time and I was like, dude, you got to try harder.

You've got to come on like, you know how to do this, try harder, do it. And she did. She's one of the reasons I got through algebra two, and she had pointed out to me like just recently, hey, like, because I've always had a lot of guilt. Like, I was such a bad student. Like, I don't understand why I was such a bad student high school.

And she was like, you had other stuff in your mind going on. You were dealing with other stuff at home. Like, you know, it's tough. Like there's I have so much empathy for high schoolers, especially if, you know, there's just it's tough. Like, so what, what was your GPA in college? I want to say, like, I think my, I, you GPA was like 3.8.

And then what was it in high school roughly, I think a 3.2. Okay. So it was better. It wasn't. Yeah. You were. I thought you were going to tell me like a 2.4, so. Yeah. But like, I've also heard that people will say, that you'll do better in college because I will. Most of the more of the classes in college are in your chosen field.

So it's a little easier to to enjoy and get used to it. So and I will say, how long did it take you go ahead. No, you're in high school. I hung out like I, I do I this was a good thing I did. I tried to hang out with kids who are smart and, you know, could talk to people.

Yeah. I tried to hang out with, like, good kids, right? Yeah. No, no, no, not it was Courtney, but. Okay. But she was she was smart, my friend. I had a group of girls and guys that were just, like, good people. And it it helped me because just like in algebra two, instead of her being like, oh, do you don't do it like algebra two sucks.

She was like, hey, wake up, you need to pay attention. Who you hang out with really matters. So what? Did how long did it take you to get your degree? It took me three years. It took you three years, which is unique. It's a four year degree. Right. And it was a. You worked, got done in three years and graduated debt free, like.

Okay, I just want to just make sure we're clear here. So what did. So one thing that I've learned, so we sponsor class, the Ramsey class in several schools. Connersville does a fantastic job. I wanted to speak about that with, getting. I mean, Michael Thompson is the teacher over there, and he always shares with me every spring on how many kids are graduating.

And I mean, they have multiple, like one year, I think he said 33 or 37 kids got their associate's degree the day they walked across the stage to get their high school diploma. So did you have any dual credits like that or were you starting from scratch? It was similar, but not quite okay, so I know it. Absolutely.

They're I know several guys and girls who I'm friends with now who went to Connersville, and they had that setup where it was, oh yeah, we're going to put you on the path from freshman year to where you're going to get a, you know, a debt free associate's degree, which is awesome. That's so cool. And then they only went to college or a state school or whatever for two years.

That's incredible. That's awesome. I didn't have quite the same. I think I had like 3 or 4 ag classes that transferred over because when I was in high school and, and like Courtney, I think, and Monica, that group, a lot of them I think took maybe like a chemistry class that was dual credit, but nothing that was like, oh, you're gonna have an associate's.

I don't know anybody that I graduated high school with that walked also got their associate's like the the college core Indiana college course. Yeah. I don't know anybody that went to Rushville in my graduating class who had that set up, like the kids in Connersville did. I'm so jealous of that. I think that's so awesome. I think Rushville doing something like that on track.

They should. Yes, absolutely. That's I couldn't I would much rather see that investment made into the kids than, you know, a new football field or anything like that. Like what I, and I do feel like kudos to the high schools. I do feel like there's been a shift on, when I was in school, it was just like they looked they really looked down on you.

If you weren't going to university. Yeah. Right away. And now, I mean, they've made a really good shift of trade schools, smaller colleges. You know, Emily always tells the story that she went to Ivy tech. She felt like a loser. She felt left out. Not going to IU, Bloomington or Purdue, you know, and there's nothing wrong with any of them colleges, but there's also absolutely nothing wrong with not going there either, you know?

So, and I think it's just because people from Ball State like to tell you when I went to college that. But hey, Adam, Adam was the only one I used to have. That even was smart enough around here to have a degree, right? Yeah. We've hired a couple since, you know, lately. But he always talks about Muncie and Ball State.

So that's why I can always remember, like, Jonathan has a degree. I have no idea where it's at. It's it's on his wall. But other than that, like, I can't remember what it's in, but as a, as somebody that hires people every month or I try to at least like, I don't give a rat's butt where the degree came from.

Absolutely. Somebody I can speak, some I can get stuff done. Like, you know, somebody wants to hustle, somebody wants to grab a part of the business and own it. You know, Adam and Tech, whatever that looks like. Yeah, I love the I learned this at a previous position. I was in ownership. It was such a huge like pillar of success where I was working at that time.

And I love that. I'm like, I need to. I remember that like, I'm like, ownership, take ownership and where you're at, I hate the people that I work with now. I call them my members, our members, our our team have that ownership feeling and well and like and you know, it's when you're a leader, when you own a company, it's like the people that should get a promotion or should like they're growing, they're asking, they're already you're really almost already doing the next job before you get it.

If you really want it, like, you know, how can you make it better? How can you grow this department? And then that's going to bring that's going to bring opportunity. If if you got the attitude, well, you've told me to do these six things every day and that's the only six things you're ever going to do, then you know you're not going to grow.

So what. So did you work full time part of the time? The whole time? Never. Like, what did you work? I a lot of up and down and I knew that. I think going into it, I remember my senior year of high school I told I said Mr. Orme, Blair Orme, he I told him I was like, I'm not going to go to college.

And he was like, well, like, why? I said, I don't have money. I not, I'm not smart and I don't know what I want to do. And he was just and he's such a patient man and very much just like, okay, think on it. He, he plays therapist really well with you. He's very good at like, okay, go home and sleep on it.

Right. Come back and tell me when you can and I'll come back. Back. Okay. I'm thinking this now. He's very good at that. And I remember, you know, just over time and I took the I did the Dave Ramsey class that you sponsored my senior year of high school when I was going through these decision making times. And I was like, oh, I think I have a plan.

And so I decided, like, hey, I like business. I like the business classes I was in. I like the idea of me working in an office setting. And I was like, so I should probably just like, get a business degree. And then I was like, I remember touring the Ball State campus even, and I remember being like, this is kind of cool.

Whatever. And then I like they gave me the pamphlet of like, how much it costs. I was like, it's not that cool. Sorry, but it's not that cool. I genuinely was like, that's not. Yeah, it's not that cool. But, and I ended up being like, you know what I'm going to do? Ivy tech and I did, and I went in person for probably most of my classes at Ivy tech.

I went to the Richmond campus. I went to the Connersville campus. I went to the Columbus, Indiana campus. I loved it. So what was the price difference per year, if you remember what Ball State was compared to Ivy tech? I mean, I know it was tens of thousands for sure. Okay. But I mean, I and I wasn't paying for I didn't have to have housing expenses with Ivy tech, I commuted, I did have I paid for my vehicle, I paid for my gas, that stuff, I paid $2,500 each semester or no.

Easy for each quarter? No. Had it been semester, it was $2,500 a semester at Ivy tech. And like also keep in mind I never wrote a check. My first, I believe two years. So you had scholarships? Yeah. Okay. And and again, I wasn't smarter than your lead. No. And then at least if you got some scholarship, it wasn't necessarily that it was.

I had I could talk to people. I had experience in life like I could, I could sit down and write. Hey, I went through this growing up and this is how it changed me. And if you can write that on a scholarship application, and I'm not saying like lie or anything or embellish, but just be like, hey, I went through this and this is how it changed me.

If you're able to have that kind of insight, people want to give you money for that. Okay. So gives you a little bit of insight. I'm pretty sure when I lived on campus at Ball State, it was about 30 or 35,000 a year. Any idea what that was? Housing compared to tuition? I want to say room board was probably 15 to 18 of that.

So half. So when I my junior senior year when I lived off campus, it went down to like 1828. Okay. And that was dominantly because I was in all of those like super upper level classes. Right? Oh, so he was smart. Smart. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, and that's crazy because that's been several years now. I mean, really so like and I'm sure it's increased.

So I mean like 20,000, you know a set of 4 or 5000 like 6000 like, you know, and like I went to Cincinnati State. I was very fortunate. My stepmom worked there. I got free tuition. I had to pay book fees, lab fees. Now, I also had to drive to Cincinnati for what would once again, that cost some gas money, but 100 bucks and gas or, you know, $20,000.

Yeah. Like, yeah. So that evens out when you do the math. But but really like and literally I was just having this conversation with like and like if you set your mind to it, you can do it. Like, you can come up with a million reasons not to be able to do it, you know, and if you have support where parents can pay for it, grandparents.

That's awesome. Like whatever there's there's I'm not I don't want to like, knock that down. But it's also like it's we put so much pressure on kids that you got to know what you want to do. And you know, well, you don't know what to do, so just go borrow it. And the problem is, we've given the money so freely that they can just keep jacking the rates up.

If people truly pay cash for it, like the rates would be way more competitive because it'd be like, okay, is it worth this? You know, I have so I have a friend who he, he went to college, and he. Would you like it? He did it very reasonably. I don't think he borrowed very much. He has a great job now.

And it was it was like a trade school situation. But his. And he's paid his loan like nothing like that. But his loan got sold to another company. And he's like, how does this happen? How can they do that. Like I signed like, hey, I just need, you know, X amount of dollars and nothing crazy X amount of dollars so I can pay to live in this place in Ohio instead of, you know, like it's awful.

Like you, you are truly at the mercy of the collectors and the you know, lenders like it's if you can avoid that. Well, in life as an 18 year old or a 19 year old like you don't understand that that true bondage, you know, you're tied to it. Yeah. And I mean, not going away and and like, you know, they say and males are we're a little slower than females, but I think the male brain doesn't fully even develop until you're 25.

So there's still hope. That's right. With women too. It's something along that I feel like women, technically, it's a little closer. I think I'm. I'm there. Yeah. Yeah. So. But I'm just like, the crazy thing is, like, well, let a kid go in $100,000 in debt, and the brain's not even, you know. Yeah. Fully developed, you know, and and to console anybody who's like, oh, but, you know, I don't know what I want to do.

When I started, when I did the Ivy tech classes, when I started it, it started out as, oh, hey, my first, the first semester, I didn't even really necessarily have a degree path per se. It was we got something in the mail or some some kind of thing, some kind of emotional thing came across my eyes. Ivy Tech was like, hey, this was in summer of 2022, so I don't know what things are like now.

It was like, hey, if you just graduated high school, free Ivy tech classes for you. I was like, oh, free. Like I'm working 40 hours a week, but I could take these classes online, so, like, why not do that if they're free? So what? Yeah. So how long? How long were you at Ivy tech before you kind of started a career path?

I guess. Well, I would say I think I was probably, Are you East? Before I was like, okay, I think I know what I wanted. So what what is your degree from Ivy tech in in tech it is it is business administration okay. It is. It's an associate's degree in business administration. But, it just kind of developed as.

And when I finally was like, okay, I'm going to get a degree in my head, I was like, I'm going to get this degree, my associates, because I can pay cash for it. And then I'll just say, I have an associates. That's cool. And then I'll go find a job. You know, I'll figure out what I want to do.

I was working the whole time still, but then I got done with my associates and I was like, oh, I could do this. Like, I could, I can make this happen. So how long did it take you to get your associates? A year and a half. Okay, so you kind of split. Okay. And I did I did summer classes too, because like I said, like they had the, you know, free summer class promotion.

And I did get scholarships from Ivy tech. And it was I mean, apply, I applied, they invited me to some kind of a luncheon down, I think it was in Bloomington. And it was and I got honored for some kind of academic team. And I'm like, this is crazy. Like, I'm not smart. You know, I didn't, but I truly excelled at Ivy tech.

It was the the experience I had there. They they build their curriculum to where it's for real people. So my dad working people like my dad always said that, like my dad beat it my head. I was going to two year college. I didn't really have a choice. And like, I guess as parents, I guess you don't realize as much influence as you have.

Oh, yeah. On on your kid. Like, you know, I've watched I've watched people that I know, like, kind of be forced to go to this college by their parent because it's a prestige thing that my kid went to Purdue or my kid went to IU, which is weird, like, you know, like that, like, I'm sorry, but when they're 18, if you're still trying to live through them, like there's a problem.

Yeah. But, you know, so I, I really didn't have an option in my head, if I'm being honest with you. Yeah. And so it's just you kind of, you kind of look back, but it's in again, like, okay, how do you how do you encourage your kids that you can do it debt free? And, you know, and Miss Baker, which is now Miss Slugger, unfortunately still not teaching at Rice Field, but she was she was awesome.

Like she believed in it. And and we're fortunate to have several schools that teach it. However, like she probably believes in it as much as any of them, if not a little more. And that is very beneficial to you guys because I'm a product of it. True. Like, I know, literally like if you're parents and, you know, unfortunately, some parents don't want to talk about that kind of stuff.

You need to talk about finances with kids, with your past, with your kids. That's. Yeah, yeah. So at least when there's a teacher in there willing to talk about it, you know, and and a shout out to Will that teaches at Greenfield Central. He's taught our class for a few years, and he came from the real world, I call it.

And, you know, they had a student that after going to the class, after coming in to me and Emily talking to him, she chose Ivy tech over IU and Savior, tens of thousands. And that's literally going to save her $100,000. You will. But so my dad always said that technical college, community colleges or, he said that he seen people that had masters degree flunk out of, Cincinnati State.

My dad, his backstory is he's farm, had had two back surgeries, had to get out of farming. All I knew was farming. So he went back to college after he had some kids, and he said he watched people with bachelor's and master's degrees flunk out of a community college because he goes back then, as many moons ago, he's like the the, the big universities, you could just go to 3 or 4 classes the whole semester.

And if he knew what to study for that test, you could get by. He's like, since they stay, you had to go to every class and he's like, some people this couldn't. But like you said, it's like it is truly that the working. And then as an employer, like I just need people that understand that we got to get stuff done, you know?

So what, So outside of Miss Baker, the Dave Ramsey class, like, was there any other adults, parents, grandparents that, you know, kind of kept in line, like, wanted to help you down that path? You know, anything like that? It took a community for sure. Like, I definitely don't want it to be like, oh, I do this all by myself.

Like, my parents never did anything for me. Like, it's not that at all. I'm very blessed. And I, I was a very unique situation in my parents. We were very low income when I was like a senior in high school. I tell people all the time, I remember buying my prom dress for my senior prom because, like, I had to, like, I was just part of it.

And they in my parents, you know, they were like, you know, do whatever you want for college, you know, do your thing. Like, you know, I they couldn't cut me a check. They couldn't cut me $25,000 check. Right. Most people can't. If you can, that's awesome. Like, if that's cool, but like, they couldn't. And so that's why I kind of made the decision.

And then I started at IU East and I had some scholarships. Ivy Tech gave me $1,000 every semester to go to IU East to continue, which is cool. I mean, it's insane to me that another college cut me a check. So I get my bachelor's degree somewhere else. Like it's just cool. But I will say it, my parents, when I was at IU East, they were able to help me a little bit more financially.

So they helped me with a couple thousand, here and there, for tuition. But I still worked. I worked about 36 hours a week, probably when I was at IU East. And then I didn't pay for housing. I wasn't living alone. My, my boyfriend, who I'm still with, he's been great, and I, he has made a lot of sacrifices because and he has said this to me like, hey, like you're going to do this, so it's going to better our future, our family, our future family like this.

Like we're we'll we'll do it like we don't need to be in debt for this. Like we'll get through it. And so there was definitely other people making sacrifices with me. But I think it was worth it. Well, and I mean, what what a lot of people don't understand is like, it's that sacrifice to have to pay for your seeing your pictures or your prom dress that like it comes back tenfold when you get older.

Because I'm 38 now and literally like, I know two grown men in their 30s that are still dependent on their parents to pay staff full time jobs, married kids. And it's like, it's it's heartbreaking. And then, you know, then I see an 18 or 19 year old or 20 year old like, go, go do something like this. So, you know, that's, I don't know, as a parent, I don't want I don't want my kids to suffer.

But I also know the importance of just learning lessons. Absolutely. Figuring some of it. You know, I just I just seen a meme or, a clip the other day that said boys, young boys need, well, I can't remember. I'm going to draw a blank now that I'm on camera, but pretty much young boys need responsibility. Yeah, they do like they need chores to do and that kind of stuff to just it just matures them and helps them so much.

And I really wish I could remember, you know, what the heck it says. But no, I mean, and you know, and when I went to college, like, I didn't even know who Dave Ramsey was, you know? And, you know, my wife did the same thing. My wife came from a lower income family. Like she got a lot of Pell Grants.

Is there still Pell Grants? Yeah, I had a Pell Grant. Okay. I didn't have a large I didn't have a large enough one to pay for the whole thing. But I remember I think I got about $1,000 a couple semesters for a Pell Grant. And when your tuition is $2,500 for a semester, you know, if I did, if I didn't have any of scholarships, like, okay, I worked really hard.

Like I could cut a check for $5,000 to pay for that because I worked hard, I saved my money and I didn't do this or I didn't do that. And so what? So what were some sacrifices that you did? Because, I mean, that's another point that I just want to kind of talk about because it's, you know, when you got to pay for stuff yourself like it, maybe it's not a new car, maybe it's not a spring break trip or something like that.

Yeah. And I, I definitely made sacrifices and I'm, I'm thankful enough to say like, thank God. Like, I'm, I'm in a different chapter in my life where I'm not having to make sacrifices quite the same way as I did when I was 18. Very thankful, very blessed. That I'm lucky I'm in the situation I am in.

But I also work for it. Right. I remember being in senior high school and I was working two jobs. I had an after school job, and then I had a job at a restaurant over the weekend. And, I remember missing out on so many parties and hangouts, and I didn't get to go do the senior camp out or something because I was working.

And and I just remember being so lonely, and I was like, man, this stinks like this. I'm lonely, like, this sucks. And even like you said, Emily felt that way. Going to Ivy tech. You can't. You're kind of lonely. It stinks, but, it was so worth it. Like I remember, and I didn't make crazy, money busting busing tables at a restaurant, but I made some more money so that, like, every little bit helps.

Like, I don't know, I can't emphasize that enough to anybody, especially, like, my age. Like, if you have a side hustle, do it, please. Like. Well, and that's another thing is like, it just it's that hustle. It's a grind is to consistency. And that's, that's the secret of life that nobody wants to, wants to admit, like, it's, it's every day or every weekend.

And like, when I, I remember when I was a sophomore, me and my brother worked for Paul Frye and travelers, Graham, technically, her parents and grandparents. And Lee would milk cows all day Saturday. I mean, we get there about 8:00 on Saturday, and we do the evening milking, get down about eight, eight, 30 and then Sundays.

We'd usually come in like later in the morning, not as early as Saturday, but we would milk practically every Sunday night. Also. And it's like there is stuff that you know, you miss out on and you think, and you know, you're going to even laugh even more in another 5 or 10 years. Now you're just like, you know, like like when I, when I preach at these in Brody and Blake are just going to be.

I'm glad you're doing it. I'm so here. It's just like, I'm like, guys, in 15 years, you're not going to remember or care to two craps about what that person drove. Yeah, because it doesn't it doesn't matter now. Like, you know, and, you know, well, I was I was watching I was I have Snapchat, of course, like every other 21 year old.

And I was looking at my memories and it was like three years ago today and I was it was a selfie of me, and I'm, like, drenched in sweat. And I was in a, a pig pen, and I was somebody had hired me to clean pens at their house while they were gone at a show, and took care of the livestock that was still at home.

And it was awful and terrible, and I, I but it was hard work. It clearly was and I made like $500 that week and I was like, this is awesome. And I put it in my savings account. I didn't touch it. And I was like, I'm going to, I'm going to Ivy tech. You know, if I, if I need $500, you know, if I, if a scholarship doesn't cover part of my tuition, like I have another $500 I can put towards that like it was.

And then I look back now and I'm like, oh, I don't want to do that again. Like, I know, yeah, but it does. But I did like I laugh at it. I'm like, I can't believe I did that. It builds. It builds so much character, though. And just like, Brody and Blake, like, Blake's dad is like, do you ever just want to run him off?

Because there was a couple nights he was at our house until like 11, 1130 helping with stuff. Cool. And Emily's like, oh, absolutely. Now there's always something that you can do at our house, you know? And it's like the see them boys hustle like it's it's the easiest thing. Like just, hey, go do that side of me. Go do it.

Like, I still want to write, but it's like, no, just, you know, just just go do it. Like. And they're both working for the roofing business, so I'm like, okay, guys, when you come to do side projects at my house, make sure you've got everything done with Jonathan, please. Because we don't. This is the most important, you know?

Yeah, they're literally at my house right now. Run and skid loader pack in a pass. That's awesome. But, like, there's opportunity out here if you look for it, if you if you want to find if you want a debt free degree, you can do it. Yeah. And if you want a side hustle, like I promise you like them two 17 year olds I would put up against a lot of 30 year olds, because, I mean, they are they've got the work ethic, like, I'm sorry, that is the secret now.

Like, even 15, 20 years ago, like, the competition was higher. Like, now it's just show up and do what you're supposed to do. Oh, yeah. You look like a rock star. It's like, I almost wish they. We had a little higher standards. Yeah, I, I work in finance and ask anybody. Ask Courtney, ask my my boyfriend. He knows I'm terrible with, especially mental math.

He likes to joke with me all the time. He's like, what's eight times three? And I said 36. And he was like, that's not right. Like you, I tried, I gave it, I gave it my best shot. Yeah, he did that to me other day. Wasn't very funny for me, but he loved it. I'm not very smart, but I genuinely I love to build relationships with people I care about, people I can talk with, anybody in a room.

I can talk in any room that I'm in. And I show up to work on time, and that's literally all you need to have a pretty good job. Well, and I mean, and and you need to give yourself more credit because you are smart. There's a key. There's a book, by Patrick the only the ideal team player.

And it's hungry, humble and smart. And really, the hungry is pretty self explanatory. You got to I want it. Yeah. The humble of like you got to be willing to listen and learn. But the smart part is more like people smart of like can you carry a conversation? Can you look them in the eyes? Absolutely. We just we just got done hiring a content creator for, for the business.

And like, this is going to sound bad. Hopefully the wrong person not watch this. But writers can be a little dry and a little like have some energy, whatever you're doing. Like, you know, there's Adam loves tech stuff here. Okay, if I had to do that stuff, I think the reality is I would be out there. I don't know what a VPN is, and I don't want to figure it out.

I don't want to know. And it's funny because sometimes Emily is like, Adam, come and fix this. I'm like, Emily, leave him alone. He's doing stuff for me right now, you know? But, like, genuinely like, if it's content writing, it's business management. Like, enjoy it. Because we had an interview, we were getting down towards the the end of the interview process, and we were really leaning on the way we went.

And I was like, let me kind of spot check this one over here just one more time just to make sure we're not in a rush. And like I interviewed him right after we just had another interview with our with who we hired and the energy level was just like. And I looked at Emily, I was like, that's the right way to go.

Let's do it. Let's quit dragging our feet on it. Yeah. You know, so I mean, it's kind of like the Dave Ramsey principles. It's simple. It really is. It's not easy. Like, you know, there's days that you want to go back to sleep, maybe don't want to go into work so early. Or if you don't want to go to the gym so early or you know what, whatever that looks like.