The Busy Beak Podcast

Exclusive interview with Swiss Chicken Judge, Reto Giacometti

• Christian Diaz • Season 1 • Episode 1

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Have you ever wondered what a chicken show in Europe would be like?
I traveled to Switzerland to attend one of the biggest poultry shows in Europe. The Bi-annual Swiss National Poultry Show where I met Reto. I was struck by the great difference from the poultry shows in the United States. In this interview we gain insights into the poultry hobby in the US, Europe and the United States. I hope that by the end you will see that we actually have more in common than not; Our shared love of poultry.

Watch the Full interview on our YouTube Channel. With Footage of the Poultry Show!
https://youtu.be/GIncjR8CBYI

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Well, hi everyone. Today, I'm really excited because we are going to be having a discussion with a well renowned poultry breeder and judge in Switzerland. His name is Reto Giacometti. He is Swiss Italian and has been raising birds for a very long time and is also a judge. I got to meet him on my recent trip to Switzerland for their national show. And let me tell you, it was spectacular that show. It was more than I could have imagined. There were so many differences in their showing, not just in their standard, but in the way that they did things. That was really exciting. So Reto is gonna be giving us some insight into another part of the world with poultry people and how they do things. That's a little bit differently than ours. So we can learn from each other, hopefully. Where are you right now? In ing and waiting and. Waiting, and then that's just like, I don't know, 20 minutes outside of Zurich. Right? Something like that. Yeah, that's right. So could you tell us what you do? My parents are farmers. I grew up in <inaudible>. It's like a Italian speaking part of Switzerland in the mountains, so it's quite high up. We had dairy cows and have beef cattle now. And then I went to Zurich. I studied Agronomy Mm. For agricultural scientist. Yeah. And I finished my studies like three months ago, and now I started the job with the professor. I did my final thesis with taking care of enclosure with Roe Deer. It's quite special to keep. Yeah. I remember you were talking about them. When I was out there. Yeah. And besides that, I've been doing this school as a judge for chicken. And I finished two months ago. Hooray! Yay! So how did you get started with exhibition Poultry? I got started first with silkies. I bought in a zoo. During holidays with my grandparents. Wait, did you say a zoo? I didn't know you could buy chickens at a zoo. Yeah, they had a cage and they were, they had like a text below the cage that they're for sale. And I had some money from Christmas. So I just bought them without asking anyone. And when my grandparents caught up, they were quite surprised. That I was able to buy chicken at the zoo. Wow. Cool! So you started with Silkies. Did you show those Silkies? No, I was seven. I was not connected to anyone showing chickens then. But then a few years later I met Simon. Maybe you met him at the show. He is an older guy, quite experienced in showing Hamburgs. I might have met him, but I met so many people that weekend. So he was actually the one telling me about showing chickens and what to look for in specific breeds. So that was basically his fault. Cool. What breeds did you have after the Silkies? Well, it was quite funny because the silkies were always broody. And I had so many neighbors bringing me eggs. But at the end, I had a whole zoo with peacocks and pheasants and quails and several breeds. Polish chicken I had at some point. But then as soon as I got the hamburgs from Simon, I did stick with them and regular size black hamburgs. It has been a project for some years now. And you had several varieties, right? I mean, I saw the whites and the blues, but what else did you have? I moved to this little farm like three years ago. So then when I started to have place to have more birds, I had black, blue, white and silver Spangled, regular Hamburgs. And then I had a lot of colors of the Bantam ones. And it's like four years since I have the mille fleur bantams. That's what I'm investing most of my energy in at the time. Yeah. And just to kind of clarify for the American audience. When you say Bantam, you mean Rosecomb Bantams, like from our standard, right? Yeah, yeah. I could have... I'm trying to get it right. Because you guys call them... Your breed... The breed name for Rosecomb Bantam in Germany is just Bantam. Right? Or in German. And then in French it's the Java, right? Right. So the regular size chicken or the standard, how do you say? We just say the name of the breed. And for Bantam chicken we say dwarf chicken. And Bantam is specific Rosecomb breed too. Well, it's so fascinating! That's why I mix them up. So, what kind of drove you to start the journey to become a judge? Well, I was visiting some shows. And I was showing a lot my blue hamburgs for some time. And somehow I was always disappointed with how they were judged. So at a certain point I felt like, well, I can do that maybe better even. So that was the main motivation to go into judging. So what was the process like? Like when you decided I want to be a judge, what did you have to do? What were the requirements that you had to meet for the association? First of all, you had to have three courses you had to visit. So it's like a basic poultry keeping course. Expected to have like, by everyone showing chicken. Then we have one course like to be the in charge of the... We say to, help other members of an association with their breeding. So inside of an association you have like this Oakman, it's called So, in German, they say [inaudible]. It's just the person people go to for questions regarding showing a breed. Like a mentor? Kind Of? Yeah, Kind Of. Oh, okay. Kind of. And then we have specific courses for keeping pheasants and geese or ducks. So these courses I had to do before. Then they asked us to join a judge for one season, or several judges while they are judging. So we had to write the cards for them. And that kept on like during the whole judging period was three years in the end. And then we had six Saturdays each year where we had course the whole day where they brought an animals. And we had like several, all the breeds have been a topic during the, the course. Yes. Wow. So it's quite extensive. Basically. Yeah. It's a lot of time that goes into it. So it's a lot of weekends spent..And you said you had to follow one judge for an entire season of showing. Can you do multiple judges or just the one? Yeah. Usually you stick to the ones you like best or that live close to you. But we were required to, follow like, or to come... How do you say? To go with three judges at least each season. Ah, I see. Okay. Yeah, that kind of makes sense. For example, with the American Bantam Association, you do an apprenticeship program. And you have to clerk or assist a judge at a show at least eight times for eight different judges. And they have to write a letter of recommendation for you after each clerking assignment. Short of that, you have to visit with a certain number of breeders and spend a certain amount of time with them speaking about their specific breed. Because when you get your license in the states, it's a general license. Usually. So you can judge, for example, all Bantam chickens, if you're an American Bantam Association judge, or if you go for your APA license, or American Poultry Association license, you can judge all of the species and all of the varieties. Which is a little more daunting. So when you get your license, is it a general license for all breeds? Or do you do specific breeds or varieties? So it's a general license. So that's in contrast to Germany where they have their license for each category to evaluate. Ah, okay. It's also why the exam, for getting the license and the course, it's quite tough here to become a judge. Ah, that makes sense. Because Switzerland is a smaller country. So it makes more sense to give you a general license. Yeah. Most of the shows they have like several breeds and not enough of them for one judge to only have one or two breeds. So you have to be able to judge whatever you have in front of you. Yeah. That's actually main reason. Yeah. Ah, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes a lot more sense. Okay, cool. In terms of the judging how many judges per show are there? I'm assuming, it depends on the number of birds that are being shown, right? Yeah. We say that the judge can do 80 birds maximum in a day. So Yeah. Depending on the show, 80 birds to a judge. Wow. That's so different from the states. In the states, it's kind of knowledge that each judge is responsible for about 500 birds for the day. Yeah. That's Crazy. Yeah. But tell us more specifically why it's 80 birds. Because the judges take a little more time with each bird, I'm assuming? Yeah. So usually you don't even have 80 birds. So let's say standard is 60 birds. That's like an amount of animals you can really take three to four minutes for each animal. First thing in the morning when you arrive, you go through the rows. You look at the birds you have. Maybe you put some tickets to the animals, you think, they could make it. And then you start from the front and you take out each bird. And you have to make like three positive remarks to each bird. You have to explain the... What do you say?"You wish" what has to be better on each bird. And then depending on the amount of wishes, and if they are like in shape, feathering or like breed specific attributes, you have a clear system of how many points you have to deduce in the end. Okay. Each animal gets a mark. And it has to correlate with what you wrote on the card. That's actually what takes some time. When you're judging the birds and you're spending, you know, three to four, I think one judge even told me five minutes per each bird. But you're actually going through and writing out what the positive attributes are, what the wishes are, which is something we don't do in the states. Like you wish they had like a, you know, fuller tail or you wish that their comb was a little better, that kind of thing. Right? Yeah. Right. And then obviously we also have the default. But all that has to be marked on the card. Ah, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. And explain to us the point system that's on there. Because I saw some at the show, some of the birds had points anywhere from like 90 to 97. Yeah. Right. So 97 is the best you can get. The idea is to have like a... Well, 97 doesn't mean that the bird is perfect, because probably we'll never achieve that. But 97 means that it's exceptionally, but it's actually better than exceptionally good. And that's the best the judge can imagine there is around for the breed and color. So an animal being... Or like a rosecomb bantam. Yes? Like a black rosecomb bantam. Is obviously better having 97 points than a millie fleur rosecomb bantam. But a millie fleur bantam has to be spectacular also to get this 97 points. If you have one little detail, one little wish, they will get 96 points. As soon as you want something to be a little bit better in the shape of the bird or in breed specific characteristics. How do you say? If something could be better in a rosecomb, of a rosecomb bantam, you'll not make 96 anymore because then it's like the wish is too important. So it goes down to 95 straight away. Ah, okay. So yeah, so 95 is a really pretty good bird. That's actually where most breeders stop in their career. That they get that, they're good. We don't really have to count how many remarks we make on the card to deduce more points, but usually I try to. It's like simpler for me and for the breeders also, if they lose one point for each remark that I think is really important to mention. Ah, okay. And then they go down to 93. And if they have like a breed specific default or how do you say? Yep. Fault. Like Fault. That's really not okay for the breed. They go to 92, 2 of them, they go to 91. And then there's specific like spurs in a hen. So they will get disqualified. Ah, okay. And you get a U and zero. Yeah. Oh, bummer. Have you ever had a bird disqualified? Yeah. It happens to my blue hamburgs all the time because the hens show a little bit of spurs and the old judges are quite extreme on that. Oh Gosh. Happens a lot to me. Wow. That's crazy. So speaking about European poultry shows, what I noticed that was a lot different than ours is that the entire exhibition hall is closed for exhibitors and the public when the judging is taking place. Can you talk more on that? Yeah. The rules are quite strict during judging that only the judges are allowed in the hall. Because we don't want breeders or other people interfering with the judgment. Because most people that show chicken, they take it quite seriously. So there is pride and all attached their birds. And the judgment has to be fair. So that's the idea behind that. That makes a lot of sense. Here in the states, we call them cage hangers. So the breeder... While the judge is judging that row of birds, the breeders will be in the row right next to them, kind of just sitting on the cages watching them. So it's almost a little bit of an intimidation factor. Right? Because if you have a breeder that's really well known and they're watching you judge the birds, you know that breeder's birds are in that class. Because of the quality that they've had in the past. They kind of flex their muscles almost like,"you better place my bird really well" kind of thing. Yeah. It's also why we have the standardized water cups that the exposition, the organization, provides you. So you don't bring your own cups. You're not... Like some people put salad into the cages of their birds and the stuff we really don't like to see. So just make it anonymous and the judge will judge, and then at the end we will put the cards to the cages a we will see who won. Ah, ah, that makes sense. Yeah. Here we have something similar where you can't decorate your cage and you can't have any partitions that are opaque or cardboard or whatever between cages. So the way that we kind of get around the birds feathers touching the wire sides of the cages, I would do, I would put like clear plastic on the insides of the cage. That way when the birds, you know, flap their wings or when they back up against the wire, they're not fraying their feathers. It's more for just preservation of the bird itself, to do it that way. It's actually quite a good idea because we... Yeah, that's kind of normal that the feathers are damaged a little bit from showing. So yeah, we don't take that into account so much. And in Switzerland, maybe even more than Germany, you see... Germany some... Especially the bantam breeds, they actually don't fit in the cages. So how are they judged if they don't even fit in the cages? Yeah, that's actually tricky. So, there's several breeds like the Hamburg bantams in Germany, they're actually quite big. And they have a 50 centimeter cage and no chance to judge a rooster because they can't stand in there. So you have to take him out, put them somewhere. Just to see his full shape. Fascinating. So at the show that I was at, you were showing trios. Is that a normal thing in Europe? No, usually national shows are single birds. But we had some reforms on cage size and we had some changes in legislation. That's why we decided to make trios this year because it was easier to comply with the new regulations. Ah, okay. That makes sense. Usually National Show is four animals, either two roosters or two hens. Or one and three. Or three and one. And then it's always like the champion goes to four animals instead of a trio. Since when we have each bird singly caged. Okay. So with these new regulations for animal welfare, I saw that, like cages were the pullets or young females were, they had like little perches in there, like little wooden, wooden perches. Is that part of the regulations? That's also new regulation that they have to perches. And I think that's quite nice, especially in the evening when the lights go out. You notice that the halls are really, really calmer now. Because before you had birds are trying to, trying to perch as soon as the light went out. It's actually an improvement. It's a little bit... Yeah, it's disturbing while you're judging. Especially if the perches are too high up, then you always have the roosters.. Like the perch is always in the way to see the tail and the shape of the bird. But you can take it out for judging. Oh, okay. So preparing for a show in Europe... When you submit your entry forms, how much does it cost per bird or per trio to enter enter in the show? Yeah. Depends on the show. National show this year was 65 Franks for the first trio in the catalog. Okay. And then I think 45 Franks for each additional trio. Wow. Yeah. So it's quite a bit. Cuz I think the conversion for Franks to Dollars is about one to one. Is it? Right Now? Yeah. At the moment. Yes. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So it's an investment to be able to take your birds, right? Essentially. So breeders take mostly their very best trios or animals to show. Depends on the breeder, but in comparison to the work of the whole year, it's not really that big of an investment, let's say. But yes, usually in Switzerland we try to show the best we have. Some breeders, they keep the best trio at home just for safety and then they show the second best. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Also reasonable. Yeah. That's kind of what I would do. When I was actively breeding and showing my birds. Cuz I would keep the very, very best birds at my house. And then maybe my like second best, or birds that I raised specifically for showing, to the shows. And then sometimes, for biosecurity reasons, I would So they never even came home. Yeah. We don't sell animals at the shows. It's also different to other countries. Well sometimes we do trade some animals, but usually not the ones that we show. And, in comparison to Germany, where there's a whole section where the animals are for sale, they're usually not for sale here. Oh, okay. Here in the states, there's, there's kind of like an ongoing debate about the cost of showing birds. Cuz right now to enter a bird and some shows you can enter a bird for $5 or all the way down to like $3 or even $2 per bird. Or when the breed club talks about increasing the prices, the argument is that when you increase the prices then you make it less accessible for people, less people are gonna show, it's a struggling hobby already, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's one of the reasons why a judge has given so many birds to judge. Because the expense of having a judge come adds to the expense of the entire show. And when you're not getting that much money from entries, it makes it almost impossible for the club to do that. Yeah, that's exactly what I thought when you mentioned the $2 to $3. It's clear why a judge has to do 500 birds. Yeah, exactly. So how much is a judge paid to judge a show? You get 180 Franks and 60 cents or Yeah, 60 cents for the kilometer you drive to the show. Oh, okay. So your expenses for driving and 180 Frans for the day. Oh, okay. That's what you get. What about expenses like a hotel or airfare if you have to fly or any of those things? Are those reimbursed? Yeah. Switzerland is not that big, but if you, like we have judges from Germany or France coming for National Show and they're flying, the expenses are also covered. Yes. Oh, okay. So I purchased a standard, a European standard. It took me about, you know, a lot of work to get it. How did you get it? Nice. Yeah. I got it at the show and I was really excited to get it. And I got it, you know, with all these revisions and whatnot. It's pretty fantastic. It's so different than our standard, which is in a book. You know, we have essentially two. Because we have two organizations. So why is it so difficult to get a standard in Europe? Because the European Association... Well, they don't have a lot of money, so they don't print excessive standards. Actually it's not really a Swiss problem, but it's like a European association problem. Cause the standard, we try to have one unified standards for the whole of Europe. And then we still have several countries that have their own standards. Oh, okay. Well, when reading through the standard, and I use reading lightly because I can't read German yet very well, but I know some of the words. I've been studying German. I see that, all of the breeds, you know, have their weight classifications. Right. Or their standard weights. Here in the states, there's an ongoing debate about the weights and weighing birds at shows. So, in Europe or in Switzerland, do you weigh birds at shows? We used to weigh them quite consequently until 15 years ago maybe. And Switzerland had like really, really small birds. So, when we changed the judging system... Because before we had like the rabbit system where we had 10 points for d ifferent positions. And the judges didn't have to make comments on the cards. But then we switched to the German system for judging and also did not weigh the birds anymore. We weigh them sometimes if we expect them to be like crazy too heavy. Usually we don't. Okay. And we say that 10% over the... We have like 10% tolerance. Oh, okay. Our standard has a 20% deviation tolerance. So 20% above or 20% below. Right now in the states we talk about breeds, bantam breeds that are too small and large fowl breeds that are getting a lot, you know, way too big. And I think at a recent event, there was a question about the weights of a certain breed. And one of the exhibitors requested that the birds be weighed. And since it was a, I think it was a regional or national meet, they had to... They started weighing all the birds for that breed. And 60% of them or more were disqualified because they were overweight. And it changed the placings that the judge had to do. It caused a lot of controversy. It was a really big deal. My thoughts behind it are, if we have weights in the standard, why are we not going by the weights in the standard? Right? Is that kind of the same thought process in Europe? In Europe? It's tricky to say in Europe because I would say Belgium and Switzerland, we tend to have the birds still pretty small mostly. But then Germany... They went crazy. They're like, the bantam birds are sometimes just as big as the standard ones. And standard ones are losing a lot of breeders. So quality is going back with standard breeds. And so the size is diminished of the standard animals. And just for Hamburgs, for example, if you have silver Spangled bantam Hamburg that you can't really distinguish from a regular one that's that's not really good. There are lot of debates. I think it would cause maybe less controversy there to weigh a bird because of the way that the birds are judged. If there's no exhibitors in the hall and it's just judges, and there's a question about the weight of a bird, then it can be weighed without the exhibitor ever knowing it was weighed. Right. So I, there's like that argument, which there's nothing against it, but then there's like the more German philosophy of,"I don't really care how much the bird weighs, I want to look at it in the cage." And because weight and size are not always in correlation. Depending on the feather structure. From a cochin for example, if you have a Bantam cochin that's silver laced, it has a hard feather. It's not as fluffy as the white one, for example. And so we have two animals that look exactly the same. One is a kilo, it's like one and a half kilograms, the other is 800 grams. And I'm not completely convinced that it's correct to deduce points of the the heavy bird, If the appearance is good. Yeah. Ah. Maybe one new approach, but it's not really happening anywhere. But it could be to take... To measure like height and width or how do you say, of the bird. But you can say size is the same and you don't care about the weight. That could be one other approach. Yeah. That would be interesting because right now a lot of the standard is very subjective. There's like descriptions for back length, you know, what is medium long? Is it, five centimeters, 10 centimeters? I don't know. What's the measurement? I don't know how is this in America? Because in Germany we have like, each breed has its own association, usually in Germany. And they have judges specifics of their breed. And they're usually they are the ones deciding which direction the breed goes. Do you have mechanisms like that in the US too? Yeah, we have breed associations, but not enough to cover all of the breeds. They kind of direct things. They can make petitions to the parent clubs of the ABA or the APA for changes in the standard. But that takes a lot of time and it takes a lot of.. There's a lot of requirements to change the standards. And it's also difficult in Europe. We have some countries that are quicker to make changes, but usually the birds change quicker than the standards. So it often happens that the birds moves completely to a different direction and then 10 years later they see, well, we don't have the birds, like they're depicted in the standard anymore. We, we need to change something. We have revisions of the standard every two years. And all the changes done by, usually it's the country of origin where the breed comes from that is allowed to make changes. Oh, fascinating. And, and then they're adopted for the rest of Europe. Yeah. I know when I got the standard, I got revisions all the way back from like 2008. And then every two years. So I took out maybe like this much paper. After the revision, but in some cases it was just like really minor, like changes like a word here or there or what have you for the breeds. Sometimes it's also just spelling. Where do you see the poultry hobby going in Switzerland kind of moving forward? Do you have the same issue that we have here in the states where you're getting less and less exhibitors and less and less breeders over time? Yeah. It's a tricky question. I think that breeding and showing is not really a modern hobby anymore. Chicken are an absolute hype on the other hand. So we have tons of people entering the hobby of having chicken also breeding them for fun. Yeah. And I think that's a really good connection to our hobby. And we have a lot of people that start breeding and showing eventually. But we also lose people that, well, age is big factor and many people don't have the opportunity though. You need to have space and nice neighbors if you don't have the, the space. That's actually the limiting factor for most of the people. But then they start to have quails in the backyard and can also show quail. Right. I forgot about the quail. Quail are also in your poultry standard to show. And that was fairly recent, right? Maybe in 2014 or 16 I saw the revision that included quail. Yeah. The hobby is not dying just yet, but it's changing quickly. Was the reasoning behind including the quail partially due to the desire to bring in new exhibitors that didn't have the space to have the larger birds? Yeah, I think we had a lot of chicken breeders that already had quails for fun or for whatever reason. And maybe it was, I think it, it doesn't hurt anyone. I mean, maybe we gained some breeders because of the quails. Maybe not, but they're, they're cute anyway. Yeah. Super cute. No damage done there, I think. We see in the poultry hobby, and I think all hobbies related to animals and agriculture, the loss of breeders and exhibitors over time. I think this just kind of with the modern age. We're competing with technology and other interests and things that are a lot easier for people to do or become interested in. Because raising poultry, especially exhibition poultry takes dedication. It takes time, it takes space and it takes finances to be able to do it. Younger people that are starting their lives; they're going to school, they're getting married, they're having kids. They have so many things that they have going on. Right? So it makes it difficult to kind of carve out that time, space and money for exhibition poultry. So we see a lot of people getting more towards retirement. Older people that do have those resources. They can only be in there for a certain amount of time. I don't quite know what the answer is to that. How do we get new interest in the poultry hobby? That's always difficult to say. And it really depends on the people. But I feel like there's a quite big movement of awareness for food production in Switzerland for environmental problems and issues. Backyard chicken are a nice way to gain some connection back to like a small piece of nature or like a small model of food production. And I think we should exploit this sector much, much more with our hobby. Yeah. That makes, that makes a lot of sense. One of the great breeders and poultry people in the States once said that we missed the opportunity to capitalize on the next golden age of exhibition poultry by alienating these newer, we call them backyard chicken breeders. Looking down on them essentially because they don't have the show birds and all that. It's really a shame that happened. Yeah. I think it's a pity cause it's the same here. But I'm really trying to break that up a little bit. Because I would also be into showing non breed birds. I mean, if it would bring people to the hobby. Why not them have their crossbreed? They can be pretty in some aspects too. I think that maybe our standardized breeds and the idea behind them is really...yeah. It's just as funny or just as... How do you say? It's just as not rational to the general opinion. Like we look at backyard chicken in general. Yeah. There's a disconnect between the show community and kind of the "normal people" community. Yeah. And sometimes it's just also the vocabulary. So if show people in Switzerland, like older people, they talk about their birds. They say, well, this rooster is nothing, cull them. Cull them. So we're quite harsh to our birds. And the public... How do you say? Like younger generations nowadays, they're not used to that way of handling animals or treating them. Right. I think there's a lot of learning that needs to be happen on both sides. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Here the words that we use or vocabulary is one of the touchy subjects too. Because we use the proper terminology in exhibition of poultry. We call young birds are either cockerels or pullets. Older birds are cocks and hens. The backyard people use words like Roo or the Girls or, you know, cute names like that. When breeders, especially older breeders hear those terms, they automatically think, well, they're stupid. Lost Case. Yeah. Eye roll. Exactly. Eye roll, that kind of stuff. It almost seems like it's a disconnect between seeing the birds as livestock and seeing the birds as pets. Right, right. Yeah. I think in the end, our show birds; they are, they're actually pets. I mean, we're closer to the backyard people than to people that don't like animals. I mean... We have a lot of common ground and I think it's, it's a pity to have this disconnection. Yeah! I don't think I could have said it better myself! We have more in common than we think. Because we all love the birds. But for slightly different, different reasons. If we look at most of the challenges we have now in Switzerland, because actually because of bird flu, sanitary reasons... We have a lot of common interests also in facilitating the regulations for keeping birds in the backyard. I think if we all stick together, the community gets bigger. So I think it's really important to be open with backyard chicken in general too. I completely agree. But that's not the opinion of all the people in the hobby, unfortunately. Right, right. It's snowing there? Yeah. We have a lot snow. It's quite Christmas in here. It's beautiful there. I loved it. Thank you for taking the time to answer our questions. For the exhibition of poultry community, it's really great to get an outside perspective of the hobby from another part of the World. Yeah. You're welcome. Thanks for the questions. Yeah, absolutely.