What do you want to talk about today?
Shakira:Oh, ah, you know, I think where my head's at today is that I've been doing. I've been sort of in this, like mid to low lying apathetic mood, not even mood but like energy space, I guess that's the mood. Yeah, sure all of it. Were, I'm still hungry, but not like physically hungry looking for food necessarily, but I feel as if I'm not settled and something's missing. And it's been very prevalent this month in particular, I've been two years sober this month. And there's something that happens, that I've recognized in talking to other people that yeah, there's like a period when, you know, maybe when you do anything, where things just seem sort of dull. And as I've been on this path, lpeople who I've come up with, and who are no longer who like, faded away, like my relationships have sort of changed along the way with them where maybe we're not as close or maybe they're on some other shit. Or maybe I'm on some other shit. And there's this mix of feeling of guilt, which I am addicted to. I fucking love being guilty. I love being shameful. I love thinking that I'm not worth anything. Or like, you know.
Jill:Hence my phone call yesterday.
Shakira:Like love that, you know, who I love feeling like, I don't deserve anything or anything good, maybe. Today,
Jill:Sure.
Shakira:So that's where I'm at. Like, whaa, whaa, whaa, whaa. I this morning, when I took a step back and talked to some friends, I heard a lot of me in my thoughts like, me, me, I am not, this isn't, I don't have not enough, blah, blah, blah, like a lot of self centered thinking, I get really triggered and like angry whenever, if someone else pointed out to me that I'm being very self centered and my thinking, but more when I recognize it, and I'm pissed. It's almost like, I don't have the right to think about myself. And I'm like, Well, fuck you. Like, you don't have the right to think about I have the right you know, so then it becomes even more like, I'm arguing with myself in this headspace and I was listening to other friends talk this morning about how much of the change that I want to see is within my control and how much of it is not and really nothing is. And the way to get out of this self centered thinking is to be in the middle of what connects you spiritually to something bigger than you. So really getting out of yourself. And, you know, I never want to do that I never want to do the work. And it's, you know, I like things that are easy. I like it easy. I love an easy path. I love an easy choice. I want the path of least resistance. And to me the path of least resistance is when I choose the path that I set forth when I make the plan. And the fact is, is that the best life and I see it in other people, I see it. I see the the people that have the stuff that I want, or the life and the thinking and the feeling and they are committed to giving and being of service to others. And anything outside of themselves. It's as a result of them surrendering their own will. It's a result of surrendering their own self centered thinking. It just really hit me hard this morning that part of my feeling like really apathetic and almost like this guilt of feeling of this month, like feeling like shitty about like me, is like hitting me really hard. Like I feel a lot of guilt for not being for not seeing, not only do you have it so good, but there's so much more that you could be spending your energy on than like sitting in this headspace of what you don't have how hungry you are for something more that you need to go out and find it's like, Girl, like it's already there. And also, do the work of getting out of your fucking head. Just for a minute, you know what I mean? Like can you think about someone else or something else? So asking that question like What are you doing for fun? I'm like, not a whole fucking lot. I'm sitting in a lot of apathetic, anger this month. And it shifts, right? Like sometimes are better than other but I would say in general, that's kind of been the last, what? 27 days? don't want to be mad at myself, I'm not mad at myself. It's just today was a moment of like, I heard myself in my head as I listen to other people talk about the severity of how that illness in your head can keep you only in yourself and not outside of yourself and you miss the fucking fullness that is possible for you. And I see it and other people. And I get in this, why not me? And I'm like, because not doing the same shit that they're doing. I'm not doing it.
Jill:And, first of all, as much as you may feel like you only want the easy thing. Can we recognize that you've been sober for two motherfucking years, and the hard work that it takes to do that. The hard work that it takes to be in the wave of like you said, shifting relationships, people coming in, and people coming out and you managing your boundaries, to stay safe within yourself, for you to stay sober. Because that's hard work every single fucking day that you wake up. You make the choice to be sober. You make the choice to choose you. So what I hear is that maybe it's I just want something to be fucking easy for a change. Because I have been doing all of this hard work for two years.
Shakira:Yeah, I think it could be easy. If I just allow it to not be about me all the time in my head, it'd be a hell of a lot easier if I choose to stop fighting. Or like wrestling with the idea that I have all the answers. It could be a lot easier if I'm not so self centered in my thinking. The definition of self centered, to me is something that I'm still like looking to understand and define as it relates to well everything and I think if I was going to look it up, and I'm sure I've been asked to look it up at some point in the last years, and I can't remember what it was as far as a defintion. But I don't know the dictionary description is, you know, like the constant the obsession with I and me, and everything around me has me in the middle of it. And often times it's not the case. Like it's just not true. But I in my head will think and always put myself in the middle of every situation, every conversation, every solution, every problem, every question like all it's all about me. And that's just it's just a trap to me like to stay in that way. Yeah, then my feelings start traveling in that direction where like, my feelings become very real, because it's all about me. Like I've never seen, like a clear, sort of, my reality is distorted by my own self centered thinking, if that makes sense.
Jill:It does. And I can see where it also takes you out of the present moment, because you're thinking about how does this? How is what they're saying a mirror of how I'm feeling, and a mirror to maybe like what I'm projecting out. So it's almost like you're constantly trying to do the work on yourself to fix something.
Shakira:Mm hmm. Yeah, it was just it's been a really interesting morning.
Jill:Yeah, sounds like it. When you were talking, I'm facilitating the artists way group for the next 12 weeks. And we're in week three, and it's all about recovering your sense of power. And interestingly enough, the first section is all about anger. And here's what I underlined the first time I went through this. it talks about how anger is your fuel. And it's a map and it shows what boundaries you need to think about, it shows you what your boundaries are, and shows you where you want to go. So anger is meant to be acted upon. It's not meant to be acted out. Anger points the direction. We are meant to use anger as fuel to take actions we need to move where our anger points us. Anger tells us we can't get away with our old life any longer. And then the other thing that I underlined is it will always tell us when we have betrayed ourselves. It will always tell us that it is time to act in our own best interest. Anger is not the action itself. It is actions invitation. so relatable to everything that you were just talking about as far as like what you're seeing that you want out of other people is to be in more of service. surrendering, right? So it's like thinking about okay, well, then what are the boundaries to put up? What's the map of that anger and where does it lead you to what action you need to take? And then the other thing that she has in here is a section on shame. Shaming someone is an attempt to prevent the person from behaving in a way that embarrasses us. So you can also internalize that, how you do that to yourself? When people do not want to see something, they get mad at the one who shows them, which is the exact conversation that you were talking about, as well.
Shakira:Yeah, shame is a really interesting one for me too. And I've talked about this with other folks as far as like my addiction, not only to myself, but also guilt and shame. And I always come back to a friend reminding me that shame and guilt just don't serve me. Ask for it to be relieved. you know, ask to go away. But the shame for me is, is like really goes back to that earlier statement I made about not feeling worthy of anything other so I'll like, clench onto shame, for I will punish myself longer than I would imagine anyone else could, because this sense of this lack of value, that is still a part of me, which is also something I'm ashamed about. It's like the circle of shame.
Jill:Yeah, it's a cycle. Yeah, the thing that she says in here that I underlined is the antidote for shame is self love and self praise.
Shakira:Simple, right?
Jill:None of its ever all that complicated, we just make it a lot more complicated.
Shakira:So simple.
Jill:Well, and the other thing, I love this chapter. I love week three, because there's just so many good nuggets in here and the last essay she finishes off with is talking about growth. And she says growth is an erratic forward movement, two steps forward, one step back, growth occurs in spurts. So if you really look at over the like the last two years, of all of the growth that has happened in you, spiritually, personally, professionally, in your relationships, all of that, you can see where you've had that growth. And I think this last 27 days is just your step back.
Shakira:I don't know if I want to believe that. I think when I'm coming to like the setback part as far as not feeling great, or feeling angry, and feeling shame. Like if I was to say this to myself and myself being the higher self that's within me that is very clear and knows the direction, but just needs to sort of meld with this self that is still in the sense of shame in the guilt, and the sadness and this you know, self centeredness. Higher self would tell me like you're exactly where you need to be. And this is the growth, this feeling, this awareness really that's come about this morning is actually what propels you constantly forward. So there really isn't a stepping back. It's like, oh, you know, there's
Jill:Yep, yep, these are all of it. You're in the feelings. like a moment of pause and then an awareness thinks these feelings are interesting, because I can never forget that what I always wanted to escape from is feelings. What I always never wanted to do is sit in any feeling deep enough to be able to feel it, so much so, that I felt like I was going to die, that someone was not gonna love me, that I was not worthy. Like those things are still narratives, you know, in any situation of my life, and that narrative will pop up and show itself like, hey, remember, you fucking suck. And it's what I used to do was numb that narrative by not feeling it. You don't and I heard another friend talk about it in a way of saying when I wasn't sober, I wanted to forget what I did the day before you know who hurt me, a family member that abused me, a child that I lost, you know, a friendship that I lost, the fact that I'm hungry, when that would come up, I numbed myself to avoid those feelings. And I did it every single day. And every single day the medicine was not enough. So I had to do more to numb the feelings and that's just like the progression of the disease and what is happening now and it's still very uncomfortable, because you know, I'm a fucking toddler when it comes to like, Oh, God, now this is who I am as a 42 year old, almost 43 year old adult, like this is what it feels like to actually be sad, or this is what it feels like to feel anxiety. Or this is what it feels like to be in conflict in a relationship and not like run from it, or what it feels like to be in this moment of reflection, recognizing that like, I've been kind of shitty, or this is what it feels like to be in a state of dishonesty. There's been like this underlying dishonesty, it feels that's very reminiscent of the dishonesty that I would perpetuate by numbing myself. So whether dishonest with myself or dishonesty with someone else, or a white lie or omitting the truth, like whatever it was, like there's this underlying thread of that, that I know can sort of get layered, you know, over time. If I do not stop and pause and catch myself doing it and feel maybe like the fuck, I can see myself doing it again, to be able to stop the behavior and move forward. And I stopped that behavior move forward by like recognizing it. And for me praying to something bigger than myself to fucking help me along and talking to other people and actually verbalizing it. So that's what's sitting as a very thin coating beneath the surface for the last twenty seven days is that. I want to believe that this is what it feels like to grow. Actually, it feels shitty. So the last seven days, it's been fucking me, and I know, I
Shakira:Yeah. I'm in my feelings. I don't like it. I just talked myself around, you know, from the beginning to now this, but I almost had to. I appreciate you in reflecting back to me. So I can see like, no, actually, what's happening is I'm in a feeling, I don't want to feel it. And I don't want to do the things that I used to do to numb those don't like feeling. I did a lot of things to avoid them. A lot feelings because that's instantly gratifying. You know, for me to not feel them. Like, no, you're you're feeling all feelings, like even the ones that feel like you know, low level fucking apathy. of things. Not great things to avoid them. To me, to other people, like, a lot of things.
Jill:And it sounds like you're finding new ways to have your feelings and be able to still move forward and not go back to the things that you used before to numb it. Because I mean, for me, what I recognize and appreciate of those that are sober and are doing the work. Because you're actually sitting in your feelings, you're actually recognizing things. Imagine how much better the world could be if all of us just felt our feelings, and dealt with them in ways rather than numb them in ways that we numb. By avoiding, by shopping, by drinking, by drugs, by whatever, all the things.
Shakira:Right. How we treat other people. I think that's a big one.
Jill:Oh, yeah you just recognizing the shit that you have within yourself and being with it, rather than putting it on somebody else or avoiding it altogether?
Shakira:Yeah, that's the work. The work is actually just being in the feelings and ask for help outside of yourself, because I don't have all the answers, which is also really humbling. I don't have all the answers. I thought I know myself on that. But I fucking don't. I don't know anything.
Jill:I don't think any of us really know anything to be quite honest. We know nothing. It's all a fucking illusion.
Shakira:Where are you at? What's beneath the surface? Jill?
Jill:What's beneath the surface? Um,
Shakira:What are you scared to share on a podcast for Jeff to hear hear? Jeff, and who else listens?
Jill:There's a handful. You know, I think a lot of what you said is a lot of my underlining as well. And I think yesterday, my underlining thread was abandonment. Being unwanted, being unloved and feeling like I've got one foot out of every relationship, because, but mostly because of my one foot out of myself, and one foot out of other relationships, because I'm always constantly trying to prove that I suck, and that I'm not worthy of being loved or not worthy of being wanted. Because the original person that had me didn't want me, didn't love me. And I think when I talked this back to you, it was just like, well, you know, maybe I was wanted or unwanted who knows. But clearly, there was a level of desire to not have me aborted. And as far as, loving me, I think just like the greatest act was to give me a potential at life with somebody else that was going to support me. And as I was thinking about what you responded back to in my message and then considering that conversation that I was having with myself while I was driving, by the way, which was not a great time to be crying, driving. But then I got to thinking when I was in the shower, that these are my wounds. And these are the wounds that make me who I am. That make me the warrior that I find myself to be somebody who's resilient and strong and powerful that have made me into this healer, and got me to that place where you're at like, was like, What is my highest self, I feel like my highest self is somebody who is meant to have my wounds and have my story from my scars that have gotten me this far that I can share in like, share with the world or share with others to be able to help them inspire them to like move through their journey. So it kind of got me into the place of well, my soul chose this journey, my soul chose to be in this place to be given up to go through and heal from abandonment.
Shakira:Mm hmm.
Jill:So it just kind of got me into a different place of like, spinning it into that positive place of being sort of like this wounded warrior and to be able to heal through that, because that's, that's my power. That's why I'm here. That's my purpose.
Shakira:Mm hmm. So again, coming back to service outside of yourself.
Jill:Yeah, absolutely. So exactly where you were at.
Shakira:It seems like that's the, that's the answer. And so, to get outside of ourselves, you have to stop thinking about ourselves as the center of all. But leveraging our experiences in some way that serves something outside of ourselves or others outside of ourselves.
Jill:that's kind of where I, I don't know, as simple and as small as it might be, we joke around about the 20 listeners that we have, but if there's something that someone can deem from our conversations, that gets them to think a little bit differently, gets them to act a little bit differently, to get them to see that, oh, I recognize that in myself, that's not something I would have noticed. That's to me still being of service. So as much as I think we're having fun with this, I think this is also sort of, for me, my outlet of being of service to others.
Shakira:Yeah, yeah, I think otherwise, you in knowing you, and this is probably true of me, too. And something that I'm grateful for you pushing me towards, but knowing you, you would not share, you would absolutely believe that narrative that I am not worthy, and I don't want to be rejected or abandoned. So therefore, I'm going to keep all of this in, maybe there's a couple of times, I would share some things with someone, but it's a really courageous act for you to do it for others in it while doing it for yourself, you know, along the way.So as you keep taking these lumps, because there's you know, people are gonna say shit, or think shit or whatever the case is, as you take these lumps the way that you recover from it and share about it is, you know, I'm sure you know, it's not for nothing.
Jill:And if it's never for nothing, because I think it's always something that I can take in on myself and just say, How do I feel about that? And, you know, go from there, not necessarily needing to act on everything. I love you to chat with you later.
Shakira:I love you