Keeping It Up With the Joneses
Learn how you and your partner can improve your sex life and keep "it" up. Listen to two marriage and family therapists, Dr. Rebecca Lucero Jones and Dr. Adam Jones (who happen to be married to each other), discuss topics related to sexuality and relationships based on current research.
Keeping It Up With the Joneses
Episode 2: Let's Give Them Something to Talk About: Why Talking About Sex Matters
In this episode of 'Keeping It Up With The Joneses,' Rebecca Lucero Jones and Adam Jones dive into the topic of sexual communication within relationships. Adam shares findings from his research, exploring how couples communicate about sex and the impact this has on both sexual and relationship satisfaction. Join us as we discuss the importance of developing a sexual vocabulary, address common misconceptions, and reveal simple ways to improve your sexual connection.
Welcome, everybody, to Keeping It Up With The Joneses for another saucy, spicy, sassy episode with your favorite hosts. Rebecca Lucero Jones and Adam Jones.
Rebecca:Okay, let me introduce our topic today. Our topic is going to, actually, did we make a title for this? I think we forgot to make a title. Well,
Adam:we'll just put it on the track.
Rebecca:Okay. how about Sexual Communication 101?
Adam:How about, let's talk about sex, baby,
Rebecca:but we're not just talking about sex, we're talking about sex talk.
Adam:We're talking about talking about sex.
Rebecca:Exactly, we're talking about talking about sex.
Adam:Metasex. Metasex talk.
Rebecca:That sounds, oh, I don't know what metasex is, but that seems not talking about talking about sex. It sounds like sex on top of sex. Sex inside of sex. Like inception. Yeah.
Adam:As if when sex is happening, there's a little sex inside.
Rebecca:A little sex inside your sex.
Adam:Little extra sex happening inside the sex. We'll, we'll pick up on that later.
Rebecca:We'll have to introduce that topic later. That's for people who are very advanced with sex.
Adam:That's, that's episode 10. We're, we're starting at the basics, but you'll get there, don't worry.
Rebecca:Okay. Let me go ahead and introduce what we will be talking about today. We will be talking about a study that Adam conducted on sexual communication. So we're going to conduct this in a way where I'm asking Adam the questions and he will be answering them. enlightening us with his knowledge and wisdom. Let's just start off with why you did this research study. What brought you to this particular subject?
Adam:So the research study we're talking about is actually one I did, as my master's thesis during my master's program in marriage and family therapy. Did you not know we're marriage and family therapists? Did we say that enough? Anyway, so this idea came to me, pretty early on. I actually hadn't really had much intention to do any sort of research, but I had a really great advisor that wanted to, push me in the direction of doing some research, and I thought that might be a good idea because I could maybe teach sometime. And, there were several questions I had that were, really fascinating about how people talked about sex. In terms of a background for me, I grew up in Utah, and, those that aren't familiar with the area, it's very conservative. I felt like I talked about sex much more than many other people I knew. And I felt like I still couldn't really talk about sex. So I would make a lot of the sex jokes with my friends. But, people's comfort level with sex was always so interesting to me. And so for some reason, I've even had these friends that were really shy about sex or really intimidated about it. And I used to love to make sex jokes just to see whether they would get uncomfortable or not, or how they would squirm around the idea, But it was an interesting topic for me because, I had a couple of interesting, interactions with people, leading up to around the time where I was starting my master's program and when I was getting into this idea of doing some research. One of them was I had, some friends who were married who won't be named, but they know who they are. Yeah.
Rebecca:We won't out anybody, but you know who you are. Just kidding.
Adam:And, the fascinating thing was, and I didn't have a conversation with them directly about this, but my friend and his wife, they'd been married for, a couple of years, probably two, three years at that point. And my brother, at some point tells me, do you know they still haven't had sex? And I said, what,
Rebecca:by that do you mean actual intercourse?
Adam:I don't know. That's what I assumed at the time. I didn't really pry too much into it, but I said, do they want to have sex? And I think he said, yeah, one of them really does, but the other one doesn't like how it feels. Or something like that. And, that was the extent of our knowledge about it in terms of what was going on. But I thought, how could this couple be married for several years? And growing up in a pretty conservative, area where sex isn't talked about, I thought it was so fascinating that sex was this thing that you couldn't do until you were married. And then all of a sudden when you're married. You're not having sex. And I just couldn't believe it. So
Rebecca:what do you mean by that? That you were surprised that people weren't more excited or
Adam:yeah, that they hadn't worked it out somehow.
Rebecca:yeah,
Adam:And, I was still pretty young at the time, so I didn't have very many friends who were married. So I wasn't having a lot of these, conversations with people who were, who were navigating their sexual relationships in different ways, especially having been sexually abstinent beforehand. and now really exploring sexuality for the first time. And I just assumed it would be a naturally easy process for them. But three, four years into the marriage, here they were and, hadn't had sex and I think they had attempted, who knows what they had done. But that was the rumor going around. And so I was just intrigued by that. It just baffled me. I was confused by it. And, as I was going through my, graduate training, I started observing several cases and I started watching more cases, behind a one way mirror. We would sit in this room with a one way mirror and watch what's going on with the cases and I remember seeing several cases that just really fascinated me, around the topic of sex.
Rebecca:Wait a second. So, because I don't know if everybody's going to know exactly what that means to watch a case, so you mean that you and the students as part of your course are behind a one way mirror, actually watching another student do sessions with clients, right?
Adam:Mm hmm.
Rebecca:Yeah, so we just want to make that clear. I don't know if everybody knows what that looks like. Yeah, there's certain
Adam:training clinics like that where, There's not always somebody behind the mirror if you're going to a therapist, but in these training clinics, I imagine some people might be paranoid next time they go in looking for, for all the mirrors.
Rebecca:You would have had to sign a consent form that people would watch by video or by one way mirror. So if you didn't sign that consent form, nobody's watching you.
Adam:So we were behind the one way mirror, and we would watch the sessions as they would happen, and that was a really great learning opportunity because it gave us a chance to feel like we were almost in the session, but without disturbing the session, and we could just, see what emerged as people were going through therapy. It would help us get ready to go into the room ourselves and, see clients, for the first time.
Rebecca:Yeah. So tell us a little bit about, so were you seeing similar patterns to your friends? So you have this experience where you find out. Oh my gosh, my friends have been married for a few years and apparently they haven't had sex. So that's kind of weird. Like, maybe you knew people were waiting till marriage, but you thought, well, once they're married, this is not a problem. But then you're finding out, oh, maybe for some people it is a problem. And then what are you seeing in the cases? Is it repeating that pattern or a similar pattern? What are you finding that's unique in the cases?
Adam:Yeah, I just assumed somehow that sex was taboo for me and everybody else maybe felt more comfortable with it. That's why I had to joke about it growing up. Okay. And but as I'm watching all these cases, it's case after case where couples are really just struggling to have conversations about sex. And so one case I remember in particular, it was a young couple, I believe they had also been abstinent before marriage and now they had been married for, I think a year or so.
Rebecca:Okay.
Adam:And had also, really struggled to have sex. In fact, I don't think they had, really had any clue what sex really was or how it was supposed to work or had any basic, understanding of sexual education or, physical anatomy and there are several cases where that may happen and, it can be shocking for a lot of folks but I remember, one case in particular, a straight couple and the wife had said all the sexual education she got was the night before the wedding. The mom said, you have three holes. And it goes in the first one. And we all had the exact same reaction you did. We're all sitting behind this one way mirror and just shocked, to think. Who knows what that, what mom was intending there.
Rebecca:Okay, but when you said that, the weird thing is, you're hoping she thinks the first hole is actually the third hole because that would be better than the real first hole. Yes. And I don't know many people that are hoping for that to be their first, the first hole someone enters. Anyway.
Adam:Yes, exactly. So we ran through all the scenarios in our mind in the exact same way and started thinking,
Rebecca:Did mom have, maybe mom had four holes? Who
Adam:knew?
Rebecca:Ha. Oh dear. Maybe mom
Adam:had an extra one, yeah, it could have been.
Rebecca:Maybe mom just accidentally said that.
Adam:Or she could have misremembered it too, sure. Having not had any sexual education, she was completely unfamiliar with her genitalia. Yes. Um, she didn't know how to masturbate. She didn't know how to identify the different areas of her genitals. And that was challenging to watch, trying to figure out, where do we start with this couple and how do we help them have a productive sex life? And it really just started off with some basic, education of anatomy and using models. Maybe like a physical model to show them, what the genitalia looks like to help them explore it and we went very slowly with them, giving them, a lot of information, and pacing it so that they could really process and understand, what that meant for them because by that point they had tried for a year to have sex and couldn't have it. They just kept hitting these different roadblocks. Who knows, maybe they were trying to enter the wrong hole. Maybe, there were erectile problems. I don't remember all the details. It really wasn't my case. I would watch sessions behind the mirror, but, It was fascinating to see how little sex was discussed and how much of a challenge it was for a lot of couples.
Rebecca:Yeah. I think it's fascinating probably for our listeners because right they're not therapists, they're not getting people coming in and saying Hey, these are issues. So I think people will be surprised that we really get quite a wide array of people coming in, in terms of where they're at sexually. And it could even be that someone literally doesn't know how their parts function or have never looked at their parts or don't feel comfortable looking at their parts. There's quite an array of people when it comes to where everybody's at sexually.
Adam:Yeah. When you think you've seen, everything, there are new things that come into the room and new challenges that seem surprising, and I was thinking of another case. There was another couple that had been married like 30, 35 years that, was in the middle of a session and, the husband, and the wife had been having, some honest conversations for the first time. And the wife disclosed to the husband that after 35 years, she had never orgasmed, and that she had been faking orgasms for the entire time they were married. And, just this devastated reaction on his face. Sure. Wondering, what he had done to merit that sort of secrecy, and he felt, really betrayed and embarrassed. Yeah. And, that again, surprised me. And I kept thinking, what is this about sex? It's so difficult for people to talk about. I just assumed that after being together for so long, couples would naturally have to discuss it and would naturally have to find some sort of language to communicate about it.
Rebecca:Yeah, and you were noticing that even when they didn't know how, they didn't always figure it out. They just suffered.
Adam:Yeah, and something that continued to intrigue me were these couples that seemed to have really great communication skills. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And they could communicate on certain emotional levels, they could communicate about emotional topics very easily. They could navigate some conflicts with each other and work through them, but when it came to sex, they just were really blocked. And there was a lot of discomfort. And with that discomfort comes, A range of emotions. There can be some suspicion or some feeling of betrayal. Is my partner hiding something? Can I trust this person? There's a lot of shame or embarrassment that can come just by struggling to have those conversations.
Rebecca:Yeah.
Adam:I kept having these experiences with observing cases or even starting to see clients and having my own clients come through the door that were really struggling to talk about their sex. And so when it came to the time where I was deciding to do a master's thesis, I proposed the idea, hey, I want to learn more about how couples communicate about sex.
Rebecca:Okay. Yeah.
Adam:And, see if I can understand a little bit more about. What productive sexual communication looks like. Understanding, what's going on with some of these couples that I keep seeing.
Rebecca:Yeah, so, why don't you tell us a little bit about the questions in your study, right? Every research study starts off with some questions, or maybe looking at particular relationships to see, what different things are influencing others. So why don't you tell us a little bit about what you were maybe looking for or what you were testing as you, surveyed couples?
Adam:Something that I thought was interesting as I started looking into a lot of the research is there was a good amount of research already on the topic of Sexual communication.
Rebecca:Okay. Yeah,
Adam:some really interesting studies that looked at For example had couples communicate about sex and they would jot down all of the different vocabulary that they used when communicating about sex or they would survey couples. Do you ever use these words with your partner? How often might you use? a wider array of different words, and then they would look to see how that was related to their sexual satisfaction. And there were some interesting studies out there that seemed to show that how people talked about sex with their partner, or if they talked about sex more, that they would that would impact their sexual relationship in some way. So looking into the research as you are developing a thesis or a research study, it's a really back and forth process with figuring out what I'm curious about. and what's been done and what needs to be studied. And it was a lot of back and forth. There were some clear indications, related to, understanding how sexual communication or disclosure about sexual ideas, sexual beliefs, How those things impacted, sexual outcomes, how they impacted the satisfaction of individuals. But what was really lacking in the research was any study that looked at couples together. A lot of these studies were done with college students.
Rebecca:Yeah, that's something people should probably know. So if you haven't heard already, college students are readily available to professors to participate in their studies. So sometimes sex studies may be a little bit skewed in that we're looking at younger generations. So doing a study that spans generations can give us a better picture, right? In terms of variation in education, variation in age, and longevity of the relationship. Speak more to, how studies sometimes are not done in couples and then some studies are actually getting answers from both couples because people might not understand the difference of that.
Adam:Well, a lot of studies would bring in, women who are in relationships and men who are in relationships, but not men and women who are in relationships with each other. Okay. So we would study different things to, they could look to see how they talk about sex and how that impacts different outcomes.
Rebecca:And can you tell us why it would be important to have couples together, versus just one person from the couple telling us about this?
Adam:It was really tied to some of these clinical experiences where I kept seeing every couple develops their own culture around sex. They have their own type of language that they use to discuss it. They develop their own terms, to talk about it. They really have these unique dynamics around them.
Rebecca:And
Adam:so I really felt just studying individuals who are in relationships is really losing a big part of the picture. Because we can't see what's happening back and forth. I can only see what's happening with you or an individual in the context of their own perception of their sex life.
Rebecca:Yes.
Adam:But if I can get both partners perceptions of what's going on, I think that would illuminate so much more as to how communication influences different sexual outcomes. And so there were a few studies with couples, but I feel like mine was really one of the first to survey couples together. And really try to highlight some of the different dynamics that they had, and the interactions between them that were contributing. Because when we're looking at communication, communication Of course has to,have a reciprocal process to it. There's a reciprocal nature about it. And, it was really out of this belief that we don't exist as individuals. And, by studying the relationships and the context that we exist in, we can have a clearer idea of how people and relationships work. And so this idea of working with, studying couples really will influence our next several episodes. Yes. And several of the studies that we have done came from this thesis study that I had.
Rebecca:Yeah, it's the same data, so using the same survey responses. Well, maybe not the same, because some of them are written responses versus not written responses. So why don't you tell us a little bit then about what you found when you surveyed these couples and looked at how they were communicating and, maybe some different things like orgasm and frequency and other sexual behaviors.
Adam:So I think to talk about the findings, there were. Really, two things that I probably should define first, because as we're talking about communication, and maybe this ties to your earlier question of what the research questions were, but when it comes to communication,
Rebecca:I just took a drink. I tried to do it really stealthily, but it was not sly, sorry.
Adam:That was what made it funny. I think I wouldn't have been shocked if you tried to take a drink, but the fact that you tried to hide it was
Rebecca:It's because I've edited other episodes, and sometimes you can hear me drinking. Not drinking, just drinking water. I'm just drinking water, guys. It's fine.
Adam:What was I saying? I was saying something about, oh, communication, yeah. You
Rebecca:were going to define some things.
Adam:Yeah, as we're talking about sexual communication, that was what my study was on. There really are two different types of communication, or different levels of communication that as therapists we're trained to observe and pay attention to. And as I was getting into the research, I really felt like there were two areas of communication that I wanted to look at. One is the content. So when we talk about communication content, we're really just saying. Specifically, what are the words that are being communicated? So, at its most basic level, what are the things being said? And so that's where some of those vocabulary studies that I mentioned earlier, where they jot down what kind of words people say to each other. Can they say certain dirty words to each other, like, fuck or pussy or, who knows?
Rebecca:Why'd you have to say them all like that? Okay, anyway, it was just kind of funny.
Adam:Or. Masturbate. I'll get really close to the microphone. Boobies.
Rebecca:Oh, I really thought you were going to say moist.
Adam:Moist.
Rebecca:I thought you were really going to go there, you know?
Adam:Lubricated. Sure. So this idea of content is really Looking at what people are saying.
Rebecca:Can I ask a question about that? Sure. Cause, does it also include like things people are willing to talk about? Yes. Okay.
Adam:Definitely as well. So like topics even? We ask questions, to what extent have couples, discussed different sexual topics with each other. And how comfortable do they feel talking about those topics with each other.
Rebecca:Okay.
Adam:And, there's some pre existing measures that we used, but, a long list, it could be anything from birth control, contraception.
Rebecca:Yeah.
Adam:Sexual positions, attitudes towards sex, ideas about abortion, those sorts of things. Okay. Anything potentially sex related, it would ask questions. What areas of sexuality have you or are you comfortable talking about with your partner?
Rebecca:Okay,
Adam:So we wanted to look at that because that's a particularly useful way of understanding, how communication impacts relationships. So it's really what can people say or what can people not say with each other. And so I wanted to capture that, but there's this other area of communication, which is really the process. And when we look at process, it has much more to do with, What's happening between people? What's the back and forth look like? So, if I'm asking, some of the questions we would look at with sexual communication process is when sexual communication problems would come up, what would happen within the relationship? So would one person try to bring it up, and the other would, avoid it. Would both partners be able to bring it up and discuss it together? Would one partner bring it up and the other be willing to discuss it? Would both people avoid the topic? Different things like that. So when a sexual problem happens or when a sexual problem comes to mind, what is likely to happen? Within the relationship, right? Are we willing to talk about it? Are we, getting stuck somehow? Are we turning away? Are we, closing off in this dynamic? And so we wanted to look at that area particularly. And really that's in response to different sexual problems. And that's something I always really try to look at in therapy, too, is, what happens. Walk me through what happened last time you two disagreed about sex. And, who said what? And then where did it end? What happened after it ended? Who won, who gave up, right? And we can track out, the different dynamics that happen within the relationship. So that's a really crucial area to understand if we're going to be able to have any sort of impact on, improving the sexual relationship or the communication on some level. Okay. So in terms of what we found, some of our results differed based on this sexual communication content and the areas that were related to sexual communication process. The kind of the back and forth. Their ability to communicate and, the dynamic between them. When it came to content. there were, some findings that supported previous research and were similar, but within the couple relationship, talking about sex was related to having sex more often, for men. Having more sexual vocabulary, and talking more about sexual topics, and being comfortable with talking about sexual topics with your partner, was related to their sexual satisfaction in the relationship and the relationship satisfaction. So just being able to talk about sex really has an impact on some of these relationship outcomes, at least their perception of where their relationship is at. Now that may not seem like a total surprise, but it's helpful to know that's true for men and women. A lot of times, what we would find is situations where, some men were willing to talk about sex and, women weren't, or women were able to talk about sex and men weren't, that's where some of these outcomes became really problematic. And at the couple level, we would find that, that ability to just, discuss a wide array of sexual topics and to share your opinions on them, was very indicative some of these sexual outcomes.
Rebecca:Let me jump in and say this. I think the thing that's interesting as you share that finding that I'm thinking about is movies, right? And movies, there's not a lot of talking about sex, right? Like we see the people having sex or the prelude to that. And there is no talking. Everything looks really easy. Everybody knows exactly how to please the other person. So I think a lot of people, and I've even heard people say this where like, I don't want to talk about it. I shouldn't have to talk about it. I shouldn't have to tell them what feels good or where to put something or where to touch me. So I think it's important, that people really pay attention to this finding because we find that the more people talk about these things, it really does, like you said, It leads to greater sexual satisfaction and relationship satisfaction, which are not the same, right? That it's both. Like, why would you not want to figure that out, right? Figure out how to communicate about that. Because that's a guarantee for, I think, things that all of us want, right? Which is to be happy in our relationship and happy with our sex life.
Adam:Yeah, and it's being able to talk about a wide variety of different subjects. And I think that's an important element, too, is sometimes you have couples that they can talk about sex, but sex is very constricted into a limited area. A limited range of topics that they might be able to discuss.
Rebecca:Yeah. Are you thinking like a lot of married couples can probably talk about birth control, right? Cause they probably don't want another kid, but talking about maybe what they want to do or using certain words, it may be,
Adam:Yeah, exactly. Yeah, finding, different, patterns and how they, what topics they can and can't discuss is another area that may impact some of the relationship outcomes. Yeah.
Rebecca:Okay. Yeah, tell us what else you found related to content.
Adam:Yeah, with, communication content, there were two interesting findings. There were some differences between men and women, when we looked at them within couples, right? Again, that was the unique thing of this relationship. So when we looked at, the women in these couples, I should probably give a disclaimer, all of these, couples were straight. So we didn't have any same sex couples. That's a teaser for some future research that we're conducting right now. Working a lot more with gender and sexual minorities. But, at the time, we only got, straight couples that participated in this project, based on the type of analysis we wanted to run. But, here we were able to look at, men and women within these straight couples. And for women in these couples, being able to discuss a variety of sexual topics was related to greater orgasm frequency. The women who were able to talk about sex more, they orgasmed more.
Rebecca:Yeah.
Adam:And, there could be a variety of different reasons for that, but to know that, just being able to talk about sex in a variety of sexual topics really has an impact on how often women orgasmed in these relationships.
Rebecca:And that's a big deal because the orgasm gap, right? Women orgasming as often as their male partners. So, if this can close in on the gap, that's important to know what could, potentially help with that.
Adam:And it was important to be able to look at this from a couple level because if we just looked at women individually and said, if you talk more about sex they have greater orgasm frequency. It was important to be able to account for what's happening on the man's side as well.
Rebecca:And
Adam:so in the analysis we ran, we're also accounting for everything that's going on, with the male partner as well. And so it was really fascinating that for men, that wasn't the case. So communicating about sex more didn't lead to more orgasm, which may not be more surprising. Oftentimes, the way that most couples have sex is, can be often focused more on sexual intercourse, penile-vaginal sexual intercourse, so that tends to really favor the, the male orgasm in a lot of ways. So oftentimes, and when we looked at the orgasm rate for the men in our sample, the vast majority were orgasming, um, almost every time. So it may not be a surprise that. Talking about sex more is changing the orgasm frequency for men, but it is good to know that it's happening for women.
Rebecca:Yeah,
Adam:and So that I think creates its own interesting dynamic In that oftentimes I think there are a lot of men that feel that talking about sex is really just for the partner, right?
Rebecca:What do you mean?
Adam:That they feel like talking about sex is, we're going to talk about this just so that it can be pleasurable for you, or that the female partner can climax and that it could be enjoyable for both of them.
Rebecca:Do you mean they are, men already think that, or they're going to think it because of your findings?
Adam:I think men already tend to think that.
Rebecca:Oh, okay. I wouldn't have guessed that.
Adam:Yeah, you don't think
Rebecca:I think men try well, maybe I do feel like I have clients that definitely tried to talk about sex with their partner In hopes that maybe it will lead to sex, but I don't know that they're relating it to orgasm But I do think men like to introduce sex They're like hoping that if we talk about sex Then maybe what you'll think about sex and you know me if I'm thinking about sex, I definitely want to have sex So I think they're thinking that, women will operate like them. If they're thinking about sex, then they're going to want it. So less related to orgasm, more related to the actual act of sex. Does that make sense?
Adam:Yeah. Well, actually, that's funny you said that because in the same study, the men who said they talked about sex more with their partners, they reported greater sexual frequency. But the female partners did not. Which was interesting. So there wasn't a relationship for the women
Rebecca:between how
Adam:much they could talk about sex and how often they were having sex, but for the men there was. So if they felt comfortable discussing sex, they were having sex more often.
Rebecca:That's interesting. So men remember. Like I guess they're looking back on their sexual encounters. They're talking and that leads to sex. But for women that it wasn't that a conversation led to sex.
Adam:Yeah.
Rebecca:Interesting.
Adam:Yeah. So maybe you're right in that regard. Maybe I'm giving men too much benefit of the doubt here that the communication is really aimed at improving the female orgasm, I think in reality, maybe it is more frequency driven potentially there's some element of a lot of men really wanting it to be satisfying for their partner. But being able to check in and ask about that is an entirely different thing. And that emerges in some of the qualitative research that we'll discuss in another episode. But,, was difficult to really see in this research. As we're just looking at numbers and comparing numbers.
Rebecca:Yeah, and I think in hetero relationships, I do think men want their partner to orgasm. I just think for a lot of couples, both the men and the women, female orgasm can feel somewhat elusive. And so I think sometimes the woman is like, Oh, I don't know, I think it can be, hard to be patient and be curious about what is needed. So I think, I guess I don't really think of men as thinking directly that communication can increase orgasm, but I do think men always go into a sexual encounter hoping they can satisfy their partner. I think most men actually feel probably a lot of pressure to do that, right? That's their job.
Adam:Yeah, I think so. Men tend to, we'll get into some of that too, about this attribution study that we ran, but there is a lot of evidence, you know, a lot of men tend to think about how long can I last? And if I can last long, then sex will be good for my partner. And really that oftentimes can be the one main question in a lot of men's mind. And getting a lot of men to drop that and, just be present and communicate about that with their partner to open up about some of that.
Rebecca:Yeah.
Adam:Some of those fears or those anxieties. Yeah. Thanks. That alone, I think, can be a big process.
Rebecca:Yeah. Okay. Are there any other findings about content that you wanted to share?
Adam:Not about content, but one of the interesting things that we found about process, this was really the piece that stuck out to me about the research and I was really, intrigued to find this, was when we looked at communication process. So, again, this is. What happens when sexual problems come up? Does the couple, both express their feelings? Does one pursue and the other withdraw?
Rebecca:Okay.
Adam:Do they both avoid it? Yeah. You know, looked at several of these different dynamics. What we really looked at to see was whether they were both able to communicate their feelings with each other, that was related to their sexual satisfaction. But it was not related to their relationship satisfaction.
Rebecca:Okay.
Adam:Which I thought was so interesting. It was really interesting finding that how we talk about sex really didn't impact our relationship. But just talking about sex more did. And I would have thought it would have been the other way around. I thought that was, that actually really surprised me. I would have assumed that, Just having, a more advanced sexual vocabulary, maybe that would just impact the sexual satisfaction. But instead, having the advanced vocabulary and discussing an array of topics, that improved the relationship as well. But how couples talked about sex, it only related to their sexual satisfaction. It didn't improve the relationship in some way. And I thought that was so interesting, so we started to look, I looked at it a couple of different ways, and so I wanted to also include another process measure that we included, which just asked about other conflicts in the relationship. So when other problems arise that aren't sexually related, how do they talk about those?
Rebecca:Yeah.
Adam:And so we looked at both of those things.
Rebecca:Okay.
Adam:We looked at how they talk about general topics and how they talk about, sexual topics. When sexual problems arise.
Rebecca:Yeah.
Adam:So having good communication skills generally. Having some good back and forth, a good communication dynamic where both people can share and express their feelings. That would improve the, the relationship satisfaction. But it didn't improve The sexual satisfaction.
Rebecca:Okay.
Adam:So, really what we had here was talking about other general problems could improve the relationship. And talking about sexual problems, being able to talk about those could improve the sexual relationship. But they don't mix and match. So what was really fascinating about this was it started to unfold a lot of different things that tend to come up in therapy. Like I mentioned earlier, I would watch couples when I was behind the glass observing therapy sessions. And a lot of them would have. really great communication skills, but just seemed to struggle when it came to discussing sex.
Rebecca:Yeah. and that's interesting because I even remember, I want to say in my training how sometimes we'd even maybe talk about how if people can't talk about sex or they have trouble like working through a problem, you might start with a different topic. And maybe that could be a good place to start, but I feel like a lot of therapists make the assumption that if they, kind of work on these communication processes, that if now we can talk about finances, then we'll be able to carry over those skills and talk about sex. But it sounds like you're saying that may not be the case.
Adam:Yeah, there may be Some sort of relationship there, but by and large, at least the findings of this study suggest that sexual communication, the ability to talk about sex in a productive manner, is a unique skill set. It's distinct from some of the ways that people are able to discuss other things in their relationship.
Rebecca:Mm hmm.
Adam:So like I mentioned earlier, you have to be able to develop a language, a vocabulary with your partner to be able to resolve some of those sexual difficulties when they come up. It's its own, unique challenge. And so that I think every couple may struggle with or may have to determine for themselves in order to have a, Thriving, really functional or enjoyable, pleasurable sexual relationship. I think that assumption that I think a lot of therapists can really be, misguided. They might work with couples often times, and I think often times therapists are also avoiding their own discomfort in discussing sex. Ha. Yeah. And by avoiding sexual discussions, maybe they feel like the couple they're working with can't tolerate it.
Rebecca:Sure.
Adam:But by avoiding that, maybe they're thinking, oh, we'll do two birds with one stone. Well. Work out the emotional conflict they have and their sex life will just magically get better, but it's not the case, right? So that's something I really try to stress when I'm working with Students that I'm training to be therapists or in my own work is to really integrate sexual communications, sexual discussions with the clients, with couples that I'm working with early on in therapy to help, create an atmosphere where that topic can be discussed. Yeah. And, I've even fallen into this trap several times where I've had couples come and they've had this issue. And one of those issues is a sexual problem or, some sort of sexual argument. And I've ignored it. And I just focus on these other relationship issues thinking that, their sexual relationship will get better. So it's something I've even had to really pay attention to in my own work, to pay attention to make sure I'm integrating some of those sexual communications a little bit more. And, to help foster the couple's ability to be able to talk about it from the get go.
Rebecca:Yeah. No, I think that is important. And you, typically when people do come into therapy, it's pretty often that there are multiple problems and that sex is one of them. I just think if you're experiencing any dissatisfaction, it's hard for it not to impact the relationship. sex because sex is such a big part of sharing yourself with someone else. So if you're in conflict with someone, it's hard and maybe unusual for it to not impact sex. Although there are some couples that can maintain really good sex even when they're in conflict. But I would say that's the exception and not the rule. Well, why don't you tell us what this means for couples?
Adam:you know, as I was doing some of this research, I read an article, the results of a randomized clinical trial where they were testing essentially a, female Viagra, you could call it.
Rebecca:Oh, okay. Yeah.
Adam:So there are several medications out there that work to help with female arousal during sex. And, this was similar to that. It was, meant to help stimulate sexual interest but what was fascinating was that the clinical trial failed. There wasn't any difference between a placebo group and the medication group. But they found that the couples who were taking this medication were also talking about sex a lot more. So everybody who was taking the medication and in the placebo group started talking about their sex more and they were having sex more often and were having better sex. I thought it was interesting. This conclusion that other researchers were coming to is they're studying medication that maybe the best intervention, for couples to start with is to start talking about sex, to start developing a way to break through whatever barriers they may have around sex, to introduce some novelty, to explore what they both find to be erotic, stimulating, enticing, to reorient themselves with each other, and with their partner to find out what each other likes
Rebecca:yeah. Okay. So I feel like this is the perfect time to bring up chimp empire because when you're saying that, like what's going through my mind is maybe women just need talking beforehand, right? Like women may need some sort of like, something else before the sex that helps them know this is a safe partner, right? A lot of research shows that women's prefrontal cortex is still engaged during sex. So women, are always assessing is this safe or not? They're never just like in their limbic system, just like, Oh yeah, I'm here for a pleasure. Right. So, I think that's interesting and, we were watching
Adam:We love that documentary. I loved that.
Rebecca:We love those chips. But we got a real kick out of when, I guess he was the alpha, Jackson. Jackson. He could sense
Adam:He's tense. He's anxious. War's going on. Yes. And he just needs some sort of release. He's throwing branches and picking fights.
Rebecca:Yes, so he's tense, and he's maybe ready to mate, but it was also interesting because the narrator also talks, and I forgot what her name was, but one of the female chimps, her little baby is now a toddler, and she knows. She's ready to have another baby, right? So I don't know. She probably knew she was ovulating, right? But it was just so interesting to see how he approached her and how the narrator talks about how this is kind of a precarious situation because her little youngling is not going to leave her side. The youngling could get hurt by Jackson if Jackson's too rough. And so while she Um, so, and she, she, she wants to also mate, and somehow knows that she's ready to do that. She also has to be very careful so that she doesn't get hurt, her baby doesn't get hurt. And the way Jackson approaches her was so fascinating. He like starts waving this branch and it was like, I
Adam:loved it. It was, you know, I like, yeah. Like a feather boa. I just imagined some dancer with a feather boa kind of slowly, slowly. Swinging it in a circle and shaking her hips. It was pretty much that. I mean, he just has this, he just grabs onto this little branch and kind of waves it around. Yeah, it was
Rebecca:very, it was a very fluid like motion and he's Hey girl, I'm here. Look at me. I'm calm. I'm cool. I'm not going to overwhelm you. Like I got this just right. And
Adam:he's fine. I know I was. smashing trees earlier, but I'm cool now.
Rebecca:Yeah. And it was interesting. Like this little dance they did. She was just sitting there like watching him, but it was really interesting how he did this. It was very beautiful, right? How he did try to communicate to her. I'm safe. This is going to be a good experience for you. I'm not going to harm you. And then they seemed to have a good time. I mean, we, I mean, I don't know that it was that obvious. Except for that
Adam:baby monkey that was jumping on him trying to break it up.
Rebecca:The baby was like, wait, guys, what are you doing to my mom? The baby did seem to be like, I don't think you guys are supposed to do this, so.
Adam:I think humans eventually evolved to realize maybe we shouldn't have the kids jumping on us during sex.
Rebecca:Yes, we need walls, we need doors.
Adam:Yeah, some separation there might be beneficial.
Rebecca:Yeah, But anyway, I think it just brings that to me that there needs to be. some sort of communication beforehand that lets both partners feel like this is going to be good. And then I think they can relax. And relaxation is so important for our bodies to really be able to, send the blood down, to our genitals, essentially.
Adam:Yeah, so it's interesting you mention that because as we're watching chimps, interact, and, their kind of will they, won't they, they're mating calls, in a sense. There's really no verbal communication going on back and forth, so, when we talk a lot about the sexual communication, I think it can be really a disservice to say that it's just, Verbal communication alone.
Rebecca:Yeah.
Adam:If we're, there are all of these interesting, nonverbal dances that couples will do and being able to communicate nonverbally with each other is really fascinating. You know, I watched John Gottman share this example one time and it was so funny. I share this every once in a while. He told a story about how porcupines have sex. I have no idea if this is accurate or not, but I heard him say it. And he's a pretty reputable source, but he, Of course, a male porcupine mounts a female porcupine from behind, but you can imagine that with quills, that's a very dangerous proposition, right?
Rebecca:Yeah.
Adam:So the male porcupine, in order to prepare the female, walks around to the front, and he puts both of his hands on the female's face, and he just slowly rubs it in circles. And slowly massages the face with his hands and then when he thinks it's ready, he walks around the back and he checks to see if the quills are down enough. If the woman is ready, the female porcupine, and then if they're not, he just walks back to the front, massages the face over and over and then. Walks back around to the back. So, you know, unfortunately they can't see both ends, but they'll keep walking back and forth, this little guy. And, he's checking to see is the female relaxed. And I think that oftentimes is half the battle, I think, for a lot of men and women is identifying what is relaxing and finding a way to connect and engage the right time and in the right circumstances and help each other feel relaxed and to create a sense that sex is a priority. And it is something that we can both do that is mutually relaxing and satisfying.
Rebecca:I love that example. And it also makes me think about how it doesn't just, I love the image of this little porcupine massaging another porcupine's face. It's like really cute, but. I'm also thinking about how for humans, I don't think it just starts right before sex, right? I think in our busy world, so many women are very busy, especially if they've got children and a job and they're married. I mean, there's just a lot going on in life. And so I think a lot of couples get stuck because life just you go in these steps like now you're married, Now you own a house, Now you have kids, right? In whatever order you do that, you just keep adding more responsibilities. And a lot of times women are just not relaxed, and men are like, Hey, how about we do this? And the woman is like, Now sex is just another thing I have to do, and it's hard. It can be hard, I think with all the demands on us to really think of sex sometimes as something that can be enjoyable for me. And so a lot of times when I have clients and if they aren't orgasming, or if they're not wanting sex, one of the things I've sometimes said to my clients, and I say it to be provocative as I say, happy women want sex. And they're like what? Because a lot of people think of themselves as happy. And I say, you know, I think that if you really had time for yourself, if you really had space to relax. You would want pleasure who doesn't want pleasure? But if you're too tired, If you're overwhelmed, over tressed, Then sex is not gonna for sure be relaxing for you. So a lot of times partners are kind of puzzled why their female partner doesn't want to engage. And I think part of it is If your partner is not wanting to engage, you may want to look at how all the other things in life are creating too much stress and overwhelm generally. And so that's something I think about for humans at least.
Adam:Yeah. I think oftentimes I see a lot of men who really are always playing this guessing game of when is the woman ready, right? When is the woman ready? And so there was this great sketch on SNL last week that we watched that was so funny. Yes. This nerdy, horny husband, right?
Rebecca:It was like dorky, horny.
Adam:Dorky, horny husband or something. So, the husband sees the woman working out or in some sort of sweaty tank top or something and is immediately, turns into this some sort of nerd or something or, I think a lot of men have this idea that if I walk up and honk my wife's boobs, that she's going to be magically enticed to have sex with me. And they're shocked when that follows up with a good sense of rejection, right? Yeah, and they want to be playful. I think a lot of times there's a real sense of wanting to develop a sense of playfulness and so there's a lot of testing these waters of I want to be playful. I want to be able to joke. I want to tease. I want to build some sort of suspense, I think for a lot of men, it's a tricky dance to know when and where they can, Initiate or find some sort of avenue or a request for sex and that can be tricky for women too. I think I've met a lot of women who feel, just as much a sense of rejection if their, initial attempts for flirting are met with, their partner not paying attention or not getting it.
Rebecca:Yeah.
Adam:So I think in terms of a useful place to start, we've talked a lot about non verbal communication. We've talked about, some things that could be useful are, finding out what relaxes each other, when each partner is interested in sex. But I think something that I keep finding over and over is a really good useful starting point, is to get people touching each other. To get people communicating sexually in new ways. And one way to get them to do that is to get them to engage in non sexual touch. So get them to massage each other or hold each other's hands. And, we were just talking about this last night, but the ability to be relaxed when you're touching each other and feel at ease with each other. And, that I think is one of the more important, starting points in identifying some of the emotional blocks in the way of sex is what happens when you're just holding hands? Can you both feel relaxed? Is there a lot of times women will feel, I don't want to hold their hand because if I do, then it's immediately, I'm going to feel pressured that this needs to lead to sex or they're going to get some sort of idea that, that we're having sex tonight. So I'm going to avoid that.
Rebecca:So let me jump in there because I think Yeah, part of that starting place, of let's massage each other and, you can tell me what feels good for you, part of that is like with the commitment that it's not going to lead to sex when you explore this, right? Because it's important that it's focused on being able to, How do we operate within this domain of, we're going to figure out what feels good, we're going to figure out how to talk about that and listen to the other partner. But if one person is massaging somebody and then they like are moving down to the butt without permission, then all of a sudden, maybe they're like, I feel like this is going to lead to sex. And for the other person, they're like, Oh, No, you're not. I'm still enjoying the back. So
Adam:always has to escalate in a certain sort of fashion.
Rebecca:Yes.
Adam:And at one partner's pace is never beneficial. Right. So yeah, that's something we might do in therapy sometimes is let's take sex off the table and just focus on, communicating about what feels good.
Rebecca:Yeah. And that's just like step one. Yeah, there's other steps, but sure that's a good place to begin.
Adam:Yeah, that's a good that it's really beneficial. I've seen a lot of couples that have been together for a long time and are finding for the first time what their partner likes or dislikes. I just had a couple just recently say, Oh, we've learned that neither of us enjoy touching the other's stomach. So we've learned that's off limits they've been married and, struggling in their sexual relationship for a long time. But that alone was a useful discovery for them finding other areas, Other, sensations ways to relax that were appealing to both of them. Really expands the repertoire of what sex is and what it can be.
Rebecca:Yeah, that's interesting.
Adam:I think all of that comes with this idea that sex really needs to be a priority in the relationship. And I think overall, and what exists in the literature is, the couples that have the best sex are the ones that prioritize sex. Yeah. So sex is something that they, feel committed to doing on a regular basis and it's a way that they, continually check in and that they find enjoyment in. It seems to be a barometer of what's going on in the relationship. But whatever their sex life looks like, as long as it's a priority, They tend to have better sex. Better sexual outcomes.
Rebecca:Yeah, and I don't think that necessarily means, you have to be doing it every single day. I had some clients and we talked about the barriers to sex and there were, different times that they're operating, nighttime wasn't good for one person, morning time wasn't good for the other. But we just tried to establish two times during the week that would be good for them and they felt like they could do that and they scheduled sex and they were really hesitant. Like, is this going to work? But they were surprised that scheduled sex was a thing. really good. And I think a lot of people are so afraid that if I talk about it, if I schedule it, it's going to be bad. But the truth is most couples, especially if they enjoy the sex they're having, by the end, It doesn't matter how it started. They're more bonded to one another. They had a good time together, right? They're orgasming. So they both leave, whether they, put it in the calendar or not, doesn't really matter. Right now they've had sex two times this week when maybe last month they were lucky if they could have it once a week or once a month. So I think the priority part is key to maintaining that connection with one another.
Adam:Yeah, it definitely is. And I think in future episodes, we'll talk a little bit more about how different couples do that. So this might be a little teaser for our next episode, but I think we'll talk about different types of couples and some couples where sex is a priority and sex is working really well. There might be certain things that work for them and for couples where maybe one partner is satisfied or both are dissatisfied, the tips and tricks that might work, can be very different. So we're gonna spend some time in some future episodes diving into some of the other research we did exploring some of those,
Rebecca:yeah. I think that'll be really helpful because I think sometimes we don't always know the key to success and we also aren't aware of the missteps. Sometimes we may be engaging in a behavior that we think is helping but it's actually making it worse. So hopefully we can help you identify things that work and things that don't work so that you can incorporate them into your life so you can be having a very satisfying sexual relationship with your partner or partners.
Adam:Sexy sex
Rebecca:Yes. We want, oh, I remember. Okay. A minute ago I lost my thought, but then I remembered it and now I don't know if it's very relevant at this point.
Adam:Yeah, throw it in there.
Rebecca:I'll just throw it in. You edit it around. I remembered that during grad school we had a friend, and one time she said to me, whatever happened to a good old dry hump? And I just busted up laughing because I was like, she's right. She is so right. I say that because women sometimes will be making out, they may not realize they're dry humping, they may realize they're dry humping, but women oftentimes, when you're dating, when you're trying to hold this line, like, I don't know if I want to go that far with this person, a lot of times women are having a lot of arousal, a lot of desire, right? Because there's just so much foreplay, and they may even be orgasming, when they're dry humping, right? But once the clothes come off, a lot of times, hetero couples are very quick to insert that penis in the vagina. The woman is not lubricated. And I just think along the way with more commitment, children, just more responsibilities. Sex becomes just about the penetration and all these other things that we were doing that were very pleasurable, we almost forget how to do them. And that's really a big difference I see in couples where it's working and couples where it's not working. is that couples who can slow down and have learned what they like and can do those things as part of the sex, that sex isn't just intercourse. Sex is like the whole experience. They seem to do better and to reach orgasm more. And those who are just seeing it as this intercourse act, really almost. And I think that's fascinating that sex can be start off so awesome, be hot and heavy. And it's almost like they forget how to have it. And I don't think people are quite aware of how that shift happens over time.
Adam:Yeah, a very true piece to having a satisfying relationship is reintegrating different aspects of the sexual relationship from different phases of the relationship, right? That's where, having sex and feeling like we're young and feeling like we're kids again sometimes can be so appealing and exciting or, integrating some dry humping or just a makeout, session sometimes that in and of itself is something that gets that, people can leave off to the side and they think sex is something that should just involve, penis and a vagina if you're a straight couple and nothing else. And yeah, hopefully there's. There's a little something in there to, bring back the dry hump.
Rebecca:I just thought we're bringing sexy back.
Adam:That's right.
Rebecca:Yeah. I think we covered it all for at least, diving into your study. And so I appreciate you answering questions about that and sharing your knowledge with us about what you learned and, so next time we will talk more about some other things we discovered with this study and about different couple types.
Adam:Great. Well, until next week. Or next week. Tomorrow, until the next time we release the next episode, from now until then, goodbye everybody. Thanks for listening to keeping it up with the Joneses. See you next time.
Rebecca:And then why don't you do like a test?
Adam:Yeah. Testity test. Test test. Make a test. That was a good one.
Rebecca:Are you recording?
Adam:Yes. I am.
Rebecca:Okay, good.
Adam:I guess should I stop it again and we can check the.
Rebecca:Oh, test. One, two, three.
Adam:Yes. T's.
Rebecca:Yes. T's.
Adam:Yes. T's. Test. T's. Being, be testing. For when we'll be talking. Let's record just another little bit like this. Welcome, we're talking. We're talking a lot because it's a podcast. It's a talk past, cot past, snot
Rebecca:past.
Adam:What? Yeah, we can do that.
Rebecca:Does that sound like a good way to start it off? And if I guess there's any moment where you're like, Ugh, you don't like it. You can like signal, how are you going to signal me?
Adam:Be like a podcast?
Rebecca:Yeah, let's do a podcast. Great. That's a great idea. Okay.
Adam:Oh, look, we're recording.
Rebecca:Oh, what? How'd you do that? You did that so fast.
Adam:And we're off. I'll start that over.
Rebecca:So there are
Adam:several medications out there that really work to
Rebecca:Sorry, you're going to have to start over because I scratched my head.
Adam:Oh, so there are several medications out there that work to, oh, and I laughed.
Rebecca:And then you laughed. Okay, so.
Adam:Oh, it's been keeping it up with the Joneses. How are we ending this thing? No, no, I
Rebecca:I think you said something, you could just say Thank
Adam:you. See you later. Good night.
Rebecca:Okay. No, no, no, no, no. Hold on. Wait, wait, wait.
Adam:Taco.
Rebecca:Okay. Stop. No. What? Stop. I think you would be like, thanks for listening to keeping it up with the Joneses, but you did it like in your low voice.
Adam:Thanks for keep what? Don't just
Rebecca:wait. Well, let me stop talking and then you just close it out.
Adam:Thanks for listening to keeping it up with the Joneses. See you next time.
Rebecca:Bye. I think that's fine.
