Keeping It Up With the Joneses
Learn how you and your partner can improve your sex life and keep "it" up. Listen to two marriage and family therapists, Dr. Rebecca Lucero Jones and Dr. Adam Jones (who happen to be married to each other), discuss topics related to sexuality and relationships based on current research.
Keeping It Up With the Joneses
Episode 5: Wham, Bam, Did You Like it Ma'am?
Wham Bam! Did You Like It, Ma'am?
In this episode of Keeping It Up with the Joneses, hosts Adam Jones and Rebecca Lucero Jones delve into the dynamics of heterosexual couples where men are sexually satisfied and women are not. Building on findings from their research, the hosts explore key factors affecting these relationships. They highlight challenges such as disengagement, gatekeeping, and the rarity of seeking therapy. The episode also offers practical suggestions for improving sexual satisfaction and emphasizes the importance of mutual understanding and communication.
00:57 Exploring Couples With A Satisfied Man With Dissatisfied Woman
02:00 How Decision-Making Defers When Women Are Dissatistfied
07:51 Do Men Need Connection?
11:26 Challenges and Complaints in Sexual Relationships
15:48 Why Some Couples Talk Less About Sex
18:11 When Women Disengage or Gate keep
32:26 Therapy and Solutions for Dissatisfied Couples
Welcome to Keeping It Up with the Joneses. It's your favorite hosts Adam Jones and
Rebecca:Rebecca Lucero Jones
Adam:here again with another episode breaking down some of these findings from some of this research that we've done where we got to pick apart some of these different groups of couples what I think is really interesting, what we're hoping to do with this podcast is dissect a little bit what's going on in different types of relationships here. In the last episode, we talked a bit about relationships where both partners are sexually satisfied where things seem to be going well, but this is where it takes an interesting turn going forward because from now on, at least one of the partners in these relationships is not going to be satisfied. So, we're going to talk a little bit about some of the differences in different types of couples. These are straight couples where one partner's satisfied and the other isn't. And today we're especially talking about dissatisfied women who are in relationships with men who are satisfied with the sexual relationship.
Rebecca:And you might have figured that out from the title.
Adam:Yes. Yeah, our title of Wham Bam! Did You Like It, Ma'am? Because that attitude seems to be present throughout here where we're finding that sex in these types of couples there's not a lot of communication back and forth. The sex also may not tend to be so great. So we're going to dive in and start talking a little bit about what you're gonna expect to see or how you might recognize when a couple might fall within this group where a man's satisfied and a woman's dissatisfied.
Rebecca:Yeah, so in our last episode we outlined what it looks like for couples, and we went over a few particular areas, sexual communication behaviors, sexual decision making, and sexual outcomes, and today's format is going to be a little bit different. We're going to talk still about those topics, but we're going to talk about what this group gets right, and then we're going to dive into what they get wrong when it comes to their sexual relationships. So we're first going to start with what this group is doing well in terms of sexual communication behaviors. And what we notice is that 46 percent of the couples in this group actually report mutual enhancement as a sexual communication behavior. So just a reminder, if you didn't listen to our episode last time, Mutual enhancement means that the couple is discussing ways to improve and enhance their sex life. They take a growth mindset. So a little under half are still attempting to do this, right? They're focused on growing the relationship. And so I want to recognize that there is a significant portion of these people who are doing that, yet, the men may be satisfied, but the women are still lagging in that satisfaction, even though they're engaging in this communication behavior that is typically positive. Do you have any thoughts on that to add?
Adam:Yeah, it was a little interesting that when we look at how often the couples reported that they work together to try to figure out their sex life. This was one of the groups where it was the lowest. So it seemed to be that when the men weren't satisfied with the sexual relationship, there would be a lot more collaboration. We'll talk about that in the next episode. In this case the idea of mutual enhancement, both people working together to really build something together didn't come up. We don't see this attitude toward fostering and building a relationship together quite as often.
Rebecca:Mm. Yeah. So even though it's a little under half, it's a lot lower than the other groups, is what you're saying. Right. So, where men are satisfied, I guess it's the inverse of that that's so interesting, that where women are satisfied, there's a lot of collaboration.
Adam:Mm hmm.
Rebecca:Yeah.
Adam:Yeah, so, right off the bat, that makes me start to think. It could be the case in this group that when women are dissatisfied with sex, it could be a couple of different things, right? Either the woman's resigned to not making improvements, and maybe they don't feel entitled to having a better sexual relationship, or don't feel like it's worth the effort, or maybe it feels too complicated. Or Maybe sex just isn't as interesting. Sure. And they may not enjoy sex as much. And perhaps it's also not a priority. And that was something we discussed in a previous episode. Something about this group is that we'd find some differences in how much orgasm is prioritized. Yeah. And for women in this group the extent to which orgasm was a priority was much lower.
Rebecca:Yeah. That's an interesting connection to make. Along those same lines, in the first group we noticed that mutual enhancement and sexual relationship building really went hand in hand, meaning that those who had behaviors of discussing ways to improve their sexual life and then making decisions together, bringing ideas together through this sexual decision making process, those were hand in hand and the stats kind of mirrored each other, but in this group, we see that sexual relationship building as part of the decision making process really was lower. It was still existent, right, at 35%, but in terms of both people contributing to the sexual decision making, we see that it drops quite a bit. And so that's interesting that even though men are satisfied in both of those groups, we really see a big drop off here where women are dissatisfied, right? They're reporting that there isn't as much maybe collaboration in the decision making as well.
Adam:Yeah. And you see a lot of compromise in this group, a lot of figuring out what works. And again, we talked last time that that can be quite positive and it might also be negative. In this case we don't know a lot more other than that it was reported more often, that there's a lot of compromise. And what we might expect to see are some circumstances where that becomes pretty manageable, where the focus isn't as much on building and understanding each other as much as it is maybe making sure this cup is filled and that the sexual needs of both people are met or Maybe the men's sexual needs assuming that in this case, the men have a higher interest in sex, which may not actually be true. This idea of compromise is going to be interesting because now we start to see some differences emerge between men and women and how they're going to resolve some of the different problems and compromise in these relationships with a dissatisfied woman might look a little different. You know, a lot of times it feels like it can be, servicing some sort of need. So I see a lot of couples where a woman might be very dissatisfied when it comes to sex, but they just have the expectation of, you just got to keep meeting this man's urges or
Rebecca:pacify him. Yeah.
Adam:Pacify that drive and things will be fine. Mm hmm. And it's interesting because in some of these women, this didn't actually correlate much with their relationship satisfaction. So, this approach to sex doesn't necessarily mean that the relationship is bad. In fact, for men and women you see in this group that the relationship It wasn't necessarily low.
Rebecca:Yeah. I mean, I think that's interesting. Sometimes people will say, sex is less essential for women in long-term relationships. I don't know if that's true, but I think it also highlights a missed opportunity. That sometimes relationship satisfaction can be high enough, but the couple still may be settling for one person to be satisfied while the other one is dissatisfied or less satisfied than the other. And that may be an area for growth for a couple.
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Rebecca:Well, I think that leads us to the sexual communication outcomes for this group, which as far as, positive outcomes, 14 percent reported connection. So, you'll see that that's quite a bit lower than where both people were satisfied. 14 percent is pretty low, but I think that's an important takeaway that, we have satisfied men and dissatisfied women, and the connection is only 14%. So I think this shows that for men, emotional connection is not super high on the priority for having a sexual connection. But for women, it may be pretty important, that without emotional connection may be pretty hard for them to be satisfied.
Adam:Yeah, and we got responses from both partners, in this analysis. Of these couples, you're noticing that if the man satisfied bringing up sex or talking about sex may not necessarily result in any closer connection. There was some improvement, and we'll talk about that. But especially for women, feeling more connected wasn't a common outcome here. I think that says a lot. Some of this maybe doesn't look very good for men, if the man's satisfied, there's maybe not a big incentive to try to, meet the partner where they are and make sex satisfying for them and that's why we named the title,"Wham Bam, Did You Like It, Ma'am?" Because there's this idea sometimes of servicing the man and moving on. leaving women wanting more or wishing they could be more fulfilled.
Rebecca:Yeah.
Adam:I don't know if that's an entirely accurate picture. Of course, there's going to be a lot of variation within the people in this group. Sure. But based on some of these responses, that's the impression we got.
Rebecca:Well, and I would also add that I don't know that women who pacify the needs of their male partner are always thinking, I'm dissatisfied. I think sometimes the dynamic between two people, between someone who feels like they have a really high libido, and are always seeking sex, I think sometimes the other person doesn't even know they're dissatisfied. They may not even know that there's a different kind of sex they could be having. So there's just a level of dissatisfaction, but they might not even complain or be able to put their finger on exactly what they want instead, which is why I think some people stay in this place, right? And we're going to learn a little bit more of what that looks like for these couples as we talk about what they're struggling with because I think there's very specific reasons why they aren't able to create a sex life that works for the both of them.
Adam:Right. And like we mentioned earlier, it might be important to point out that when one partner is less satisfied, in this case the woman is less satisfied, it's not a deal breaker for the relationship. I mentioned a little bit earlier that there wasn't a relationship with sexual satisfaction and relationship satisfaction in this group. Of course, the two feed into each other, but it's not as clear cut as we might think. And I think one of the reasons is, especially in some of these groups, what we found is when sex isn't the primary avenue for connection, couples find different ways to connect.
Rebecca:Yeah.
Adam:So it may be that there are other things that they do and other ways that they engage that really feel productive and healthy. It can be a little misleading to say that every couple needs to be having great, wonderful jaw dropping sex, because for a lot of people, that's not the expectation. Sure. And they find a lot of different ways to really be intimate with each other that don't necessarily involve satisfying sex. Sure. So, all that to say, I think there can be some variations in this group.
Rebecca:Mm-hmm Yeah, I think that's a great thing to point out. Okay, so let's shift to talking about what this group struggles with. First, I think we want to talk a little bit about some sexual communication behaviors that happen more often in this group. First is complaining. So 59 percent of couples in this group reported complaining. This is the idea that one partner comes and tells the other person that they're dissatisfied with some aspect of the sexual relationship. When reviewing all the responses, it was much more likely for a man to be the partner that complained.
Adam:Big surprise.
Rebecca:I know, shocker, rrrrr, ha. What was really interesting in reading the responses that I remember thinking is that men often really get stuck on frequency. Some men complain about variety, but most often a lot of couples get stuck arguing or disagreeing about how frequently they should be having sex. And so often it can, you get the impression that these people are having the same disagreement over and over again of how much are we going to have sex. And that's an interesting place, I think, to get stuck.
Adam:Right. and one of the challenges with that is nothing is, less attractive or less stimulating to a woman than just hearing a complaint that we're not having enough sex, right?
Rebecca:Mm hmm. Yeah.
Adam:In fact, that probably just packs on the pressure of not being an adequate sexual partner. Or maybe it adds to this feeling of not adequately meeting a partner's needs or it can foster this dynamic of just servicing and pacifying a male sexual appetite.
Rebecca:Yeah, it reminds me of when you're in the car and the kids like are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? I think men are sometimes unaware of how a woman may experience them as a broken record. That kind of demand, I think what it does for the female partner, and obviously the roles could be reversed, but I think what it does is it makes you feel needed, not wanted. And you want to feel wanted, right? You want desire to characterize the sexual relationship. Especially for people who have children, it begins to mimic a parental dynamic of feeling like I have to take care of you versus this is something we create together. This is something we share. So it really can kill arousal.
Adam:So that complaining becomes a potentially difficult behavior or dynamic to get out of.
Rebecca:Yes.
Adam:And sometimes as a man, you might feel trapped, if I don't ask for it, it won't happen. But if I ask for it, then I'm punished or I'm scoffed at. And so it creates this dynamic and, I know a lot of men who are in some of these situations. And sex may still be satisfying, but oftentimes there's a real acknowledgement that I don't just want to be serviced or pacified, I want to be able to connect and I want to be able to build something with my partner. I just don't know how to do that. And so I'm going to take bad sex over no sex and I'll just be okay with that.
Rebecca:Yeah. That's a great point. In some ways we may be being unfair to men. A lot of men are wishing and hoping that they have a partner who's interested in them, who wants to be close, who wants to have sex with them. And when you think about that, we all want that. And I do think sometimes gender roles really play into this because there are some women who are just completely uncomfortable ever initiating sex. And so it does force the man into this role of, I always have to be the one to approach. I always have to be the one to say like, Hey, are we going to do this? And it does put them in this bind, like you said, of like, what is the right balance of me pursuing when I can only pursue, when I'm never pursued. So, I think men, they oftentimes might feel trapped in that themselves.
Adam:Mm hmm.
Rebecca:Yeah.
Adam:It's tricky. So when we say satisfied men, these are sexually satisfied men, but we don't know quite where the relationship is at either. It may not necessarily be related to their evaluation of the overall relationship, too.
Rebecca:Well, and we should note these men are not as satisfied as the men and women in the mutually satisfied category. So even though they're more satisfied than their wives, they're not as high as the mutually satisfied, so.
Adam:Right.
Rebecca:That's something to keep in mind. This podcast is brought to you by The Clitoris. Please find me. Thank you.
Adam:Yeah, something that's interesting about how these couples talk is we've found a higher ratio where sex just doesn't come up.
Rebecca:Yeah.
Adam:In fact it was the highest in this group where the men are satisfied and the women are dissatisfied. So, this particular dynamic was one where Communication about sex wasn't happening most often. And that is a really important point here. I think that's something that's really probably maintaining this dynamic. Mm hmm. Is oftentimes like we've mentioned, a man might be satisfied sexually, but sometimes bringing something up, or the risk of bringing something up might make things worse.
Rebecca:Sure.
Adam:It might mean no sex at all. And I might be more afraid to bring up this fear of not being sexually attractive or, not knowing how to please you and I might worry that would close you off further rather than finding out. And so that's scarier than just sometimes maintaining the status quo.
Rebecca:Yes.
Adam:So I think in for a lot of men in this case, it's easier just to not say something about it, right? We just get into a groove where we can be maybe comfortable And we have some expectation as to when and how to engage, but why would we talk about it? Because in that sense things might get worse. I think a lot of women feel the same way.
Rebecca:Sure. There is research out there. I know that when I was looking at some research that looked at consent, interestingly enough, they noticed some gender differences, and men typically both prefer to sexually communicate non verbally, and they also pay attention more to nonverbal cues and women tend to communicate verbally and expect verbal communication. So I think this also mirrors just that gender difference, whether that's how we're socialized or that's innate, that is at play here. So I think couples being aware of this tendency for men to look more at nonverbal cues and also communicate nonverbally is pretty key and that women really are looking for a verbal communication. So when sex just doesn't come up, that's going to be really hard for women who tend to be more verbal, right? It's going to be hard for them to be satisfied when they don't have an avenue to work through this verbally.
Adam:Yeah. If you're the woman and the verbal communication is going to be required to make things better then you're in a tough spot.
Rebecca:Mm hmm.
Adam:So.
Rebecca:Well, I think that connects to the next sexual behavior that is, somewhat common in this group and that's disengagement. And so we didn't talk about this with the first group because it didn't occur in the first group. But this is distinct from doesn't come up. This isn't just, that people just happen to not talk about it. This is where one partner really actively avoids and refuses to discuss the sexual relationship. So this partner is drawing a clear line that they are not going to talk about sex or a specific sexual topic. So that's pretty hard, right? Right. When you have a partner completely disengaged, it was reported that the female was the one disengaging, and so this kind of connects to what you were saying a little bit earlier, is that sometimes it may be better to not talk about it because there's this fear that if I talk about it or I get it wrong, my female partner, is just gonna shut down, and then all doors are closed.
Adam:Yeah, I think the natural outcome of that, when we look at how that plays out, is gatekeeping. It leads to this scenario where one partner really controls the frequency and the decisions related to sex. So it could be the male partner or the female partner but most commonly it seemed that the woman becomes the gatekeeper in this dynamic, right? The men would report we don't have sex unless she is ready for it. And so I just kind of sit and wait patiently until she indicates that she wants it. Right? And until then, I chew on a box of crayons or something.
Rebecca:I was going to say, I'm shit out of luck.
Adam:Do something to fight the urge, right? And a lot of people, maybe they masturbate or look at porn or find some other outlet for their own sexual interest until their partner's ready for sex. But in a lot of cases some men even just reported not doing anything and waiting for their partners cues
Rebecca:yeah. I mean, I think it puts somebody in a precarious position. When I have sexual needs and the basis of a romantic relationship is that, we have a sexual relationship. That's the thing that makes this relationship unique from other relationships and when that is taken off the table. That's really tricky, right? And then on top of that, sometimes couples have boundaries where it's like, and I expect you to not masturbate or I expect you to not look at porn and so a lot of men feel backed into a corner of like, what are my options, especially if the person is disengaging, not willing to talk about it. Some couples can be in a really sticky situation when that's happening.
Adam:Yeah. I think that leads into this other interesting finding, which is that manipulation was less common. So we found that when the men were satisfied and women were dissatisfied, it was less common to find them manipulating using guilt or pressuring their partner into sex. So, in this dynamic, it really seemed most common that the women were determining the frequency of sex and the men were following along.
Rebecca:It is interesting that there's really little manipulation in this group. There really wasn't coercion that we saw come up, but gatekeeping ended up being the most common decision making process in this couple, right? Because this is where one person is controlling the frequency and most often with gatekeeping, it was women. So this is interesting that men are satisfied, yet the women are gatekeeping which almost seems contraindicated. But I think what this tells us is these sexual scripts where men are the pursuers, and women are the ones that hold back or draw the line, that maybe there is a level of women gatekeeping that is tolerable to men. Men kind of expect that women will reject them some of the time. And so saying no, some of the time is actually maybe not too painful for a man. I have noticed, and this is more anecdotally, but when I talk to women, if women get rejected from sex, they often are a mess. It's very hard when a man tells a woman no to sex. Women often think, what is wrong? How can he say no to me? You're supposed to always say yes. I'm the one who says no.
Adam:I think your point is accurate. I think a lot of women in that situation of being rejected, worry that their partner is not masculine enough. It makes them feel maybe by contrast, they're less feminine. They should be being pursued or there should be some game of chase going on, which I think can be really attractive and a part of a lot of people's scripts. And so, that can be really off putting or unsettling.
Rebecca:Yeah, this is a side note but you saying that reminded me of our daughter, who's four, and she will ask me to do this thing that's so funny. She'll say,"I want you to say,'I'm going to get you or I'm going to kiss you.'" And she's like,"and then I'm going to put," and she puts her hands up and she smiles and she backs away and she goes,"no, no, no, no, no." And she loves to do this with me where I say like,"I'm going to kiss you." And I come closer and she says,"no, no, no." And I don't kiss her, but it is so interesting that even a child is playing out this and I see it when we do tickles, she likes me to tickle. And then she says, stop. And then I wait till she says start again. But it's interesting that even a child enjoys this game of like saying no, or you pursuing me and I have the control to say no. And so you back off. And then I want you to chase me again. And it's so cute. But it's so funny that even at four, there's something fun about this game, right? And I think that does characterize our sexual relationships, right? This kind of tension of like, will we, won't we? And it's hard because sometimes the answer is no. And we really mean no, and we really mean leave us alone. So that's just, it's tricky because you do want some of this kind of cat mouse game, but you also don't want to feel like that cat's really gonna eat you, you know? Like, there needs to be some sort of autonomy.
Adam:Yeah, and when that's not there, we start to see these dynamics play out and sometimes the result, when we look at the different outcomes with these couples, one of them is that things start to deteriorate, even talking about sex sometimes leads to making things worse. Yeah. And so, it didn't result in things getting better and that's sometimes where we see so much disengagement like we mentioned earlier or some of this gatekeeping is that trying to talk about it, we just haven't figured out how to be successful on that. And so, one of the examples that we have listed is a woman who says sex is mostly improved but I need more romance to invigorate the sexual experience, but I'm resigned to believe that he's just not capable of initiating that without reminders. And so really a woman might be feeling it's really on me to be in charge of the sexual outcome and that might be a healthy understanding to come to, but you can kind of hear the disappointment in this participant's statement saying I've just resigned to recognizing that he's not going to get it unless I tell him.
Rebecca:Yeah. It was so interesting to read those responses about deterioration because what was fascinating was Improvement was there for a lot of couples. Over time, people learn to orgasm or were able to have sex more frequently. In some way, they were able to compromise or make some progress. But the disappointment with the level of progress was palpable, right? Even though they've made some strides, you could tell that people were still So disappointed that they still couldn't quite create the sexual connection with their partner that they really desired it's interesting that in these couples where the men are satisfied and the women are dissatisfied, there's almost a level of resignation, that this is as good as it's going to get and I have to accept this, like I'll never have the sex life I dream of.
Adam:Yeah. Some of them even, stated that sex just becomes manageable despite these differences between them. So they don't necessarily get better, but we feel that it's manageable. And like somebody said, I used to view our sex as wrong and unfair. I realized that just made me a victim. So now I accept it for what it is and what it isn't. And I ask for what I need. And so with the last two quotes I shared, the women are dissatisfied. In both of those examples, you see that things have improved somewhat, right? That either their sexual functionings improved or the way that they viewed the dynamic within their sexual relationship was very off. And so they changed their mindset and they changed their approach. Yeah. They've accepted that this is where the relationship's at and don't have much hope for things improving beyond that.
Rebecca:Yeah. I think that's a really interesting place to land. And I like it actually, because I think what it says is, I'm finally going to accept the reality that this is my partner's libido, or whatever it is, right? This is who my partner is. And so to me, this person is taking ownership of their own needs and wants and saying, in the light of this reality, that my partner functions this way, what am I going to do? And they say, I'm not going to be a victim, I'm going to accept that this is who you are, and I'm going ask directly for what I need rather than, constantly hoping that your partner is different. And I think sometimes when people come to therapy, especially for sex, they're hoping that the therapist can fix their partner. So they're coming to therapy, I hope you can fix my partner. They're rarely thinking, help me. figure out how to be happy with who my partner is, right?
Adam:Help me know what I should change in this relationship.
Rebecca:Help me know how I should be different. And so I think the more people can do that, recognize, maybe it's not about fixing my partner. Maybe it's about figuring out what is it that I'm getting wrong or what do I need to accept? If I accept this, what does that mean? What are my different options? I think often they might make more progress than just thinking, I'll take my partner to therapy and the therapist will fix them. Right.
Adam:Yeah. So in this group, we also see they argued less.
Rebecca:Yeah. That was interesting.
Adam:Which aligns with a lot of what we've been saying that communicating about sex doesn't lead to as many arguments. So, there could be a couple of reasons for this. Maybe the women are just keeping the peace. Maybe they don't have an expectation that they should enjoy sex. Maybe it's been too painful to engage in sex. So when, because sex isn't coming up as often or there may be some gatekeeping or other disengagement. We just don't have as much opportunity to argue about it. In these situations, sex doesn't seem to be the major point of conflict. Sure. Within the relationship. But things don't necessarily improve.
Rebecca:Yeah.
Adam:And I think sometimes there's been this theory that if the relationship is going poorly, that sex becomes a big deal. That bad sex becomes a big deal. Yeah,
Rebecca:you mean if sex is going poorly.
Adam:If the relationship's not in a good place, then sex becomes a big deal.
Rebecca:Okay.
Adam:The sexual relationship becomes a big deal. If things are going well in the relationship, then it doesn't really matter how important sex is.
Rebecca:Hmm.
Adam:And actually there was an interesting article just recently published that disproved that myth.
Rebecca:Oh, really?
Adam:That reminds me of this idea of how little arguing came into play here. The sex maybe wasn't great, but that doesn't necessarily mean that our relationship is bad. Doesn't necessarily mean that we have other relationship problems, but we just might not be talking about sex or arguing about it.
Rebecca:Yeah. I mean, I would say sometimes I worry more about relationships where there aren't arguments, right. Where they're not working things out, because there's sometimes a dishonesty in not saying anything, right. When you're not talking about it. So, yeah, where women are dissatisfied and the arguments are 8%, I mean, that suggests that women are not asking for what they want. They're not even asking. They're just resigned. This is the way it is. He's satisfied. He orgasms. I don't. I oblige him, and it's fine. And a lot of women are socialized by their own mothers, just please him. Say yes every time he asks, because if you don't, he's going to go somewhere else. I mean, that mentality is passed down to so many women, and even though a lot of women may consider themselves feminists, or they may think of themselves as more confident, or someone who cares more about their own happiness, in reality, a lot of times, we mimic old gender roles. Sure. It's actually really common.
Adam:Yeah. And they get stuck, right? They don't know how to break out of that pattern and don't know how to get out of it.
Rebecca:Yeah. So the last sexual outcome that happens for these couples was getting stuck.
Adam:Exactly.
Rebecca:That's what we called it. Mm hmm.
Adam:Yeah. There was a higher percentage in this group compared to the other groups. When women were dissatisfied that they felt like talking about sex just, we would get stuck. We wouldn't get anywhere. We feel like we're spinning our wheels.
Rebecca:Yeah. I'll add too, this group, interestingly enough, though, where the man is satisfied and the woman is dissatisfied, you might think that they would get help or they would go to therapy. But a lot of times these kinds of couples where the man is quite happy and satisfied, it's actually very hard to get this type of person into therapy because he's not dissatisfied. And in fact, we have a running joke among therapists that if the man calls for therapy in a hetero couple, you're in big trouble because his wife has asked him to go to therapy for probably years. And if he's now thinking about it, that means he knows she's already halfway out the door. Right. So usually when the woman calls, they have a better fighting chance of making it. So that's something to also consider is that one of the reasons these couples may stay stuck is because of the lack of openness to help.
Adam:And I've had a lot of women call for therapy and I typically do a lot of therapy with couples and I'm oftentimes trying to get both partners in. But when I recommend this, you get a partner that commonly says, good luck getting my husband to join me, or he doesn't see the problem, or he just says, this is my issue. And so, it can be really challenging getting on the same page and doing some work together. Right. So even in therapy, our hands can be tied a little bit knowing how to get a sexually satisfied man to come into therapy. Right. Yeah.
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Adam:So, there are a couple of things that might be helpful to think about what can you do if you're in this position, if you're a woman and you're dissatisfied and your husband's fine with the way things are if you're a man and you feel fine but you get a sense that your partner is dissatisfied sexually, what do you do? I guess if one of the things we mentioned is therapy, but even that can be tricky. So one of the things I often n eed to really work with women to do in this situation is to try to stomp louder, to point out that things won't get better in this area unless they are really vocal or can clearly communicate to their partner that they'd like to make some changes in their sexual relationship, and it's not always easy to do. Sometimes working on things independently can really improve the relationship, But oftentimes there's a big fear that talking about it will only get worse or we'll get stuck. And so, it can be important to stomp loud, make it really clear that, you would like to work on this together in whatever form that takes. And sometimes I'll have a male partner won't be interested in coming into therapy, but I can still work with the other partner and give them some things to work on at home.
Rebecca:Yeah. I think another thing couples can do or specifically women, if they're the one feeling dissatisfaction is when you approach your male partner about going to therapy, I think you can frame it in terms of this is something you want to work on and you're wanting their support. I think a lot of times men may fear that like you're bringing them into therapy and then you're going to blame them because blame does happen a lot in therapy rooms. You'll hear partners try to blame everything on their partner. But I think if you can really frame it in terms of like you're wanting to improve things, you're wanting to figure out what's going on and that you need and want their support, then I think you may be coming from a more collaborative place and your partner may be more open to attending therapy if they feel less threatened and like this is going to be a gotcha moment.
Adam:Right. Yeah. I think that's one big barrier oftentimes to clear and getting both partners into therapy is one might be more heavily invested. And so, work to find a therapist where both partners feel they're going to give them a fair shot, maybe before you've identified a therapist you want to work with, maybe it's helpful to say, I really want to work on this. Will you help me, let's look for somebody together that we both feel comfortable with and that we can try out. Check in with each other through the process to make sure you're both feeling like it's mutually beneficial. The other piece here, one of the more common things in this area is women feel like they've expressed their dissatisfaction as clearly as possible.
Rebecca:Yeah.
Adam:And the men don't get it. And I think it's really common, or the men might try to fix it right away, or the men might become defensive, whatever it is. There can be a number of different interactions, but I think it takes some consideration on both sides there. The woman needs to stomp louder, but sometimes a man needs to learn how to listen and digest the information. And really try to pay close attention to what their partner's asking for, made me think of something I heard John Gottman say once that I thought was a really great insight. He just mentioned when his wife brings something up to him that might be difficult for him to hear, maybe she has a complaint about the relationship, or about him, that what he would do is he gets out this notebook, and He would just say to his wife, go ahead, and she would just talk and he would just jot down notes in the notebook. He wasn't looking at her, he's just writing down verbatim as much as she could say, but in the back of his mind he's saying, Oh, this is bullshit, I can't believe, I can't believe you say that, I can't believe, that's not true at all, or, all these things that you might be feeling. Allow yourself to have those reactions, but try to write down as many of the words that your partner's saying. And then just take some space. Take a little break and digest them and say, what if this were true or what if this were partly true? What could I do here to help my partner have a better experience. What is it she's really asking? What questions do I have? What do I need to do in order to be curious. And rather than turn away and be defensive, what can I do to turn toward my partner and find an opportunity to work together on this. And that can be really tough to do. Sometimes we keep getting stuck and we're not making progress, just practice actively listening and create a little bit of space for you to Move through your emotional reaction and then take a little time to digest what your partner is really saying.
Rebecca:Yeah, I like that. I think it is important to take some time and consider what does my partner get right about me? When they're essentially critiquing because newsflash, nobody's perfect. And the truth is you do have weaknesses, you do have flaws and it's your work to figure those out and do something and you're really lucky in some ways to have a partner who can be a mirror for you and help you to see those things because I think sometimes we can think our partner just wants everything to be easy for them but the truth is that like whatever flaw we have that makes it difficult in our sexual relationship or in Just the other aspects of our relationship, those things probably show up at work too, they probably show up with our children. So, I think a lot of times there can be a lot to learn about ourselves if we're willing. Another thing that made me think if you, If you do find yourself in the position of a man, like in this group, right, where you're satisfied and you're not so sure whether your partner's satisfied or not one thing I would encourage you to do as a first step is maybe just thinking about what is the level of sexual engagement from my partner? One thing I tell some of my clients, and I say this to women when women tell me. They're like, I'm not interested in sex or I don't want to have sex. One thing I say is that's interesting because I always think that happy women want to have sex. And the women always look at me like,"what do you mean? I'm happy. Why did you say that?" And I say, well, I think if you were really well rested and you didn't have too many responsibilities, there would be space for you to want pleasure and feel like you could have it. And I think that's the interesting thing is a lot of women feel happy, but they may just be too busy or whatever it is. And so I think looking at the level of engagement from your partner, the level of openness may be more reflective of their stress level or the demands on them. And so if you can just take a look at that, if the engagement is low, then you may need to have a conversation with your partner about, what do you think would be your ideal level of engagement? Couples always want to have more sex than they're having. Every couple. They'll say they want more sex. So if you could ask your partner for what that is that would allow them to have sex at the level they want you might find the answers to be surprising and not sexual at all.
Adam:Yeah, I think that's a great suggestion. And something we maybe didn't explore very much here, but a lot of dissatisfied women may be dissatisfied due to a variety of different health related factors. I think it can feel really complex and daunting with a lot of different health issues. Sometimes having children, your body's changed and sex hasn't been the same for you ever since. And you feel like sex just isn't possible anymore or sex became painful at some point and so you stopped having sex and haven't reengaged. I've seen, countless examples of both of those experiences and a variety of others where something in your body seems to scream at you and tell you that sex isn't possible. Yeah. And so it may feel like a stretch to feel like. If I were happy, I would be having more sex. And it can be a really delicate, challenging, sensitive topic to be able to move through and beyond and to get help for some of those different physical issues that are impeding the sexual relationship you might want to have. Yeah. And so in a lot of these instances I think we need to do a better job of focusing on, especially in these circumstances, that in this group the outcome we're talking a lot about is just sexual satisfaction, we're not talking about orgasm. We're not talking about any particular outcome with sex. We're talking a lot about is it satisfying to be engaged sexually with your partner. I think that's important to be aware of because we're not necessarily promoting any particular result here. And so if commonly a script in these couples might be, well, sex is only really good if you're orgasming, right? And if that's been difficult for me, then I must not be sexual. Sure. And I think that, that's a point to really start challenging and start exploring what it would take to be a bit more open about your definition of sex, about your willingness or even your willingness to want to be interested in sex can be a journey in and of itself. And so, all of those issues might be important things for women who find themselves in this group to really look at and consider.
Rebecca:All right. Well, I hope those suggestions are helpful if you may find yourself in this group and we hope you'll join us next time for when we're talking about the next group where we'll be talking about dissatisfied men and satisfied women. So join us next time for Keeping It Up with the Joneses. Thank you for listening to Keeping it Up with the Joneses. For more content, follow us on Instagram or Facebook. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please do these three things. First, subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. Second, rate and review the podcast, and third, share your favorite episode with a partner, friend, or family member. We are grateful for your support and look forward to joining you next week. Until then, keep it up. Hmm.
Adam:A little ASMR at the beginning of our episodes.
Rebecca:This is the sound of ice.
Adam:Can you hear me? You're at the movies. No, I interrupted it.
Rebecca:What do you mean you interrupted it?
Adam:Your ASMR. Yes. I can't, I can't seem to hear myself. Oh, there I go.
Rebecca:There he goes.
Adam:Test, test, test.
Rebecca:There he goes again.
Adam:I'm hiding. Where am I? The Clitoris.
Rebecca:You know what? I'm thinking about that now. And now it's no wonder that lesbians have more orgasms usually than some heterosexual partners because women are so good at finding things. And men are usually not very good at finding things. Ha ha.
Adam:Way to go girls, you did it. You did it.
Rebecca:You found the clitoris.
