Episode 7: When Sex Sucks

When Sex Sucks: Understanding Mutual Sexual Dissatisfaction in Relationships

***TRIGGER WARNING*** This episode discusses the topic of sexual coercion at time point 12:41 and the hosts make some follow up comments later in the episode. 

In this episode of 'Keeping it Up with the Joneses,' hosts Adam Jones and Rebecca Lucero Jones discuss the issues of mutual dissatisfaction in sexual relationships among couples. The hosts dive into the challenges couples face when both partners are unhappy with their sex life. Key points include the prevalence of complaining, disengagement, and manipulation in these relationships, as well as the occurrence of coercion. The hosts discuss strategies for improving sexual communication and increasing shared decision-making. They also provide practical advice on how couples can take responsibility for improving their sexual relationship, offering a list of questions that individuals can ask themselves as the self-reflect on their own contribution to the sexual relationship. 

00:00 When Sex Sucks
01:41 Communication Behaviors in Dissatisfied Couples
04:26 Complaining
05:36 Disengagement
07:41 Compromise
09:03 Manipulation
12:41 Coercion
17:51 Gatekeeping
22:06 Outcomes for Dissatisfied Couples
23:23 Arguments
26:36 Sexggestions
40:32 Questions to Ask Yourself

Transcript

Adam: 0:03

Welcome to Keeping it Up with the Joneses. I'm your host Adam Jones.

Rebecca: 0:09

And I'm Rebecca Lucero Jones.

Adam: 0:11

And today we're talking about sucky sex.

Rebecca: 0:16

That's right. And we're a little bit sick today actually.

Adam: 0:20

We're gonna try to edit out all of our coughs and sniffles and.

Rebecca: 0:23

Drinks of water.

Adam: 0:24

Yeah,

Rebecca: 0:25

yeah, yeah. So my voice might sound a little bit lower.

Adam: 0:28

Yeah. Yeah. This isn't the first time you've heard that.

Rebecca: 0:31

Yeah.

Adam: 0:31

Didn't you have a doctor once say something about that?

Rebecca: 0:33

Yeah. We actually mentioned this in another episode where you had said something about me. What was it? You said... I was asserting myself in a male dominated world. And that was because I had had an issue with my vocal cords where I felt like when I went to go scream or sing a certain note mm-hmm. Like no sound came out anymore. And I was worried that I had damaged my vocal cords and I have a thyroid disease. So then I was like, I don't know, maybe it's related to my thyroid. And I went to this like speech person and he like massaged my neck and he's like, yeah, you just need to like massage your neck or have your husband massage your neck. And he said, yeah, you know, this stuff happens from just like, you know, being a woman trying to assert yourself in a male dominated world. And I was like,"What?!"

Adam: 1:14

So it wasn't me just being misogynistic. No, it was our inside joke from this other doctor.

Rebecca: 1:18

Yeah. Yeah. It was a very strange explanation for some weakness in my vocal chords, I guess, but

Adam: 1:25

that's right.

Rebecca: 1:25

Anyway,

Adam: 1:26

so that's part of our fourplay routine now is me massaging your vocal chords and doing vocal warmups. Yeah. La la la la la.

Rebecca: 1:33

Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. No. Okay. But maybe we should get to the topic for today.

Adam: 1:41

Yeah, let's dive in.

Rebecca: 1:41

Yeah. So, the title of this episode is"When Sex Sucks." And no, we're not talking about oral, we're actually talking about when sex is really difficult or not satisfactory. And so we are talking about the couple type where both partners were dissatisfied. So we call these the mutually dissatisfied couples. And this is where they were talking about high rates of negative communication behaviors, decision making processes, and also more negative outcomes.

Adam: 2:06

I think this is helpful to talk about because anybody who's listening may not know what group they really fall in. We've talked about four different groups really satisfied couples where both partners are satisfied. All these are heterosexual couples. We've also talked about these other groups with satisfied men, dissatisfied women, and then the opposite of that. And then now in this case, we have couples where both men and women are dissatisfied. So, I think this is helpful because we may have a lot of listeners who are wanting to go straight to this episode. In fact, we're recording this one last, but this one may be of interest. I imagine if you're checking out a sex podcast, it could likely be because you want some help with your sex life. So with that we hope that in here there will be some bits of wisdom that might help get you thinking and help you figure out some ways to get out of a potential rut.

Rebecca: 2:48

Yeah, so we're first gonna start with sexual communication behaviors. And if you've listened to our other episodes, you know, we've talked about a few of these. And so we're really gonna highlight the ones that were either really low in this group or really high. In some of the other groups, you heard us talk about mutual enhancement, and that was something that really characterized satisfied couples approach to the relationship that they're always looking to improve and enhance their sex life. And one thing that was interesting in this group is just how low it was. Mm-hmm. It was the lowest of all groups, and it was even 20 percent lower than the next group. So we see that not only is this happening much less, it's happening significantly less, and only about 25% of couples report this at all. So they're not really taking this approach, which we're gonna get to why maybe that makes sense that they are not approaching this with the kind of attitude of I wanna improve and enhance my sex life.

Adam: 3:38

Yeah. I think it may be hopeful to know that even a few folks in this group are engaging in this behavior of mutual enhancement, which is really where both partners are coming to the table. Of course, this was the lowest percentage. So there are some difficult patterns that people fall into if sex hasn't been working for a long time. but it may be helpful to know that there are a lot of couples even in this group who may struggle with sex but haven't given up. And they're taking a mindset of being willing to grow and work together and still try to figure it out.

Rebecca: 4:05

Yeah.

Adam: 4:06

So kudos to them.

Rebecca: 4:07

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out. I think that is important to note that in any of these groups, there's a variety of behaviors that are happening. And so we'll talk a little bit about what you can do if you are in this situation where you are both dissatisfied. But obviously not only are some people doing these things, but there's probably room for growth as well. The next thing that I wanted to talk about though, that's the most common sexual communication behavior in this group was complaining. It was pretty high with 83% reporting that one or more partners complains about their dissatisfaction with the sexual relationship. And I think it can show the desperation that people feel when sex is not working, when they aren't feeling maybe on the same wavelength as their partner. If a lot of the ways you are discussing sex, start with a complaint, that's kind of a negative orientation to talking about sex, right? Some people, it's like, we can laugh about sex. It can be a funny intro, it can be a positive intro. Maybe it's a complaint. There's like, can be more variety. But if there's a lot of complaining, characterizing the conversations about sex, you can see how that can get heavy or it can be hard to kind of turn that around if that's the way that every conversation begins about sex.

Adam: 5:18

And it may be helpful to note that the most common things that the couples complained about were either the preferences, the frequency of sex, or the desire or the lack of desire mm-hmm. To have sex. And so that plays out with these couples that may or may not have a lot of difficulty communicating in a constructive way.

Rebecca: 5:36

Yeah.

Adam: 5:36

But the next thing that really sticks out with this group is we actually also saw that about 83% of folks reported that disengagement typically came up, which is where this isn't just that we didn't talk about sex. It's really that one partner actively refuses to talk about sex or to discuss the sexual relationship in some way. Mmhmm. This one really popped out because it was 40% higher in this group than any other group.

Rebecca: 6:00

Yeah. as you were saying that, I just made the connection to John Gottman talks about stonewalling, right? And how that's a pretty damaging behavior and communication, which is the stopping of communication, just refusing to communicate. And so I think that's what we're seeing here in the sexual realm is just a complete disengagement, a complete unwillingness to come to the table and talk about sex or a specific sexual topic and you see how damaging that is. Now I'm not gonna say that the person who's always the one that's saying like, I'm not willing to talk about this, is at fault for that. A lot of times it is a mutual dynamic where one person may be pushing to talk about things that the other person is not comfortable with. Right. But usually such a harsh boundary is indicative of the couple's inability to respect earlier boundaries and so I think then sometimes the boundary is really harsh, but then how do you ever resolve something that you're not willing to even discuss?

Adam: 6:55

Yeah. And if your partner won't talk to you about something, you feel like you're being held hostage. Mm-hmm. You feel completely helpless and have no idea how to access them and get the conversation going.

Rebecca: 7:06

Yeah. I think when that happens, it can be pretty tricky from that point.

Adam: 7:10

So the takeaway about how these couples talk about sex really is that when there's more complaining

Rebecca: 7:15

mm-hmm.

Adam: 7:16

There's less of an effort to get both partners engaged. Mm-hmm. And to work together, toward building something. And there's really this element of disengagement where somebody is cutting off the possibility of even communicating further. Mm-hmm. That's where we tend to find these couples who are really struggling, where both of them are dissatisfied, both in the sexual relationship and in other areas of the relationship as well.

Rebecca: 7:39

Yeah. That's a good cap on that. Next let's talk about sexual decision making processes. So I think one thing that's important to point out about this group is that 33% of the couples talked about compromise, and we talked about this being a common decision making process in some of the other groups. And I think what this shows is that all couples regardless of satisfaction levels are trying to find a shared solution. And that compromise is a pretty common solution for a lot of people. While it may not be as great as some of the other things we've talked about, like, sexual relationship building compromise is often a good enough solution for I think a lot of couples and even couples in this group are pursuing compromise.

Adam: 8:20

I think it's easy to see that if sexual communication is not productive, if you have people cutting off the conversation, not willing to engage in the conversation. If you're seeing some of those other behaviors that we mentioned as well, if you're seeing a lot of complaining, I think it seems natural that you'll probably find some balance that works for the relationship. Mm-hmm. And, that typically is where we see this compromise. So it makes sense that this comes up often in this group of couples, as with some of the other groups.

8:51

While you've been faking your orgasm, we've been faking our ads. Surprise! We decided to create fake advertisements because as many people say in show business: fake it till you make it.

Rebecca: 9:05

Where it gets kind of interesting with this group is manipulation. manipulation was at 50%. We define manipulation as when one partner uses guilt or pressure to change the other's sexual behaviors or uses sex to manipulate the other partner. And so obviously manipulation is not ideal. Usually you want sex to be about desire, about wanting each other, about coming to this freely. But it does seem that when people are both dissatisfied and where there's a high level of disengagement, you might see people resorting to manipulation and using that kind of decision making process to influence their partner.

Adam: 9:44

Yeah. And half the couples in this group reported that.

Rebecca: 9:47

Yeah.

Adam: 9:48

That this was coming up, so. Mm-hmm. And these are, again, just open-ended questions. How they navigated different conversations about how to initiate sex or how to approach sex so it's surprising half of the members of this group all reported mm-hmm. That in one way or another, either one partner or the other is using manipulation in order to make decisions about sex. Yeah. Whether it's making them feel guilty for wanting sex mm-hmm. Or making them feel guilty for not having sex. Yeah. And finding some way to convince them. Mm-hmm. Through that guilt to have sex.

Rebecca: 10:22

Yeah. And that probably never feels good. One quote from one of our participants, fits with what you were saying. She shared, he tries to tell me what I should be doing and how I am feeling. Gives me a lot of negative feedback. And I think that is really hard. Mm-hmm. When sex is so vulnerable. If you feel like all you're getting is negative feedback or somebody's always kind of directing you, telling you what you should think, or how you should feel, or how you should be portraying yourself, that is just gonna make a lot of people shut down, I would think.

Adam: 10:50

And I think there can be exchanges in sex where some people may really like that, being given commands,

Rebecca: 10:56

Sure.

Adam: 10:56

But I think what's really distinct here is how to feel about the command. Typically in no scenario would somebody give a command and really make any sort of demand on how you feel? In fact, when there are satisfying demand exchanges within sex mm-hmm. You find creative ways to evaluate and ask and to check in with how you're feeling. Mm-hmm. In kink communities, right? Sure. If you're using a whip or something else that's inflicting pain, you find some way to maybe stay in character, but ask some sort of question, like, mm-hmm. How do you like that? how do you like that now?" Right? Mm-hmm. And so there's a real way to check in to evaluate mm-hmm. How the pain is being experienced. And you have predetermined phrases. Sure. That are helpful. And so you should be really careful if you are telling somebody how to feel.

Rebecca: 11:40

Well, and I think also, not that this always has to be the case, but I think a lot of times if you are trying on a dynamic or even a role play, it's helpful to have some sort of discussion, or if somebody says like,"Hey, I want you to boss me around," right? Mm-hmm. It's different if someone gives you permission to do that, but where someone just comes in and decides, I'm gonna try this out, or I'm gonna tell you what to do, but you haven't agreed to that, then I think that's where it can feel like criticism or you're trying to have me fit into your fantasy versus you are having sex with me. And I think that's where a lot of people get off track. They're not really getting consistent feedback from their partner throughout the sexual experience. Because you should be taking in the feedback from your partner that would let you know, are we still feeling good about this? As things evolve and change, are we really responding to one another? So it's very clear from this woman's comment that at some point during the sex she may be giving signals, but he's not responding and he keeps kind of continuing on a path that's dissatisfying to her.

Adam: 12:41

Yeah. And some of these processes only get a little darker. In fact, it may help to give a trigger warning to those listening going forward.'cause there are some ugly behaviors that start to show up.

Rebecca: 12:52

Mm-hmm.

Adam: 12:52

And one of the things that comes up in this group that didn't come up in any other groups really is coercive sex. So whether it's unwanted sex or forced sex or sex when a partner doesn't give consent.

Rebecca: 13:04

Yeah, it was interesting to see people talk about coercion because you wonder if they'll talk about it. I've reviewed a lot of consent research and a lot of times when you're conducting research on consent, you actually have to use deception because a lot of times if you ask people, do you consent, they will want to say yes. A lot of us don't like to think that we're not consenting, even though sometimes we may not be, like, you'll hear this a lot. I'm sure if you've talked to anybody who's been intoxicated and had sex with somebody that they later regretted, sometimes they'll blame themselves. There's, oh, well I was so drunk, and, and they'll kind of, you know, talk it off like it's not a big deal. And sometimes we'll be like, well, was the other person drunk and they weren't, right? And it becomes very clear that the person was not consenting and yet they had sex. And so sometimes it's really hard for people to be open about coercion. And so the fact that anybody was open in this was somewhat surprising.

Adam: 13:59

Yeah. There was an interesting quote.

Rebecca: 14:00

Yeah, it was interesting when one woman told us about her experience in her marriage, and she said,"when he is in a bad mood, he threatens me and sometimes tries to rape me. I love having sex with him when I'm not scared, but I don't think he should force me to be close to him when I don't want to. He thinks that since we are married, I have no say in the matter."

Adam: 14:18

Hmm.

Rebecca: 14:20

Yeah.

Adam: 14:20

It's hard to listen to.

Rebecca: 14:21

The thing that's so interesting is like you can feel that like she loves him and she wants to have good experiences with him, but she doesn't know how she can have a voice in her marriage, and she seems pretty hopeless about being able to convince him that this is not how sex should be decided:"I'm your wife, so you get to have it whenever you want."

Adam: 14:41

Exactly.

Rebecca: 14:42

I'm curious. I've had several clients that talk about this, like being well, and even like friends or acquaintances, it feels fairly common among women that some women, when they've had the talk with their parents that their parents have said things like, always say yes" because sometimes it's like always say, yes, it's your wifely duty. Yeah. Sometimes it's in the context of religion. Sometimes it's more like say yes, because if you don't say yes, he's gonna get it elsewhere. So there's this like, looming abandonment. Right. But I, I'm curious if you see that in your clientele too

Adam: 15:14

often. Yeah.

Rebecca: 15:15

Mm-hmm.

Adam: 15:15

I see this dynamic emerge in a lot of different ways. And sometimes there can be substances that might be impacting this dynamic, which get really hazy. You typically need to sort some of those things out first.

Rebecca: 15:28

Do you mean like someone's intoxicated so they don't remember being manipulative? Right. Or forceful. Okay. Yeah.

Adam: 15:34

Yeah. Some of these behaviors in order to reestablish trust, in order to really work on healing the sexual relationship we need to get a grip on and some ground rules related to substances before we

Rebecca: 15:45

Okay. Yeah. Makes sense.

Adam: 15:45

Before we can feel safe to really reengage.

Rebecca: 15:48

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Adam: 15:49

But you know, oftentimes even when there are some coercive behaviors, I think sometimes it really comes from men who are so scared they don't know How to get sex in any other way,

Rebecca: 16:00

like they don't know how to seduce?

Adam: 16:02

that might be a part of it, but I think it says a lot more actually about an insecurity about themselves. Mm-hmm. That they're really not lovable and so I have to demand for what I want, otherwise I won't be respected.

Rebecca: 16:14

Mm-hmm. Interesting.

Adam: 16:16

So it comes out of a place with a lot of self-loathing

Rebecca: 16:19

Oh, okay. Mm-hmm.

Adam: 16:21

Of men that feel helpless, but also maybe once we start to unpack some of it, tend to feel their own sort of disgust about the pain that they've caused. They tend to be disgusted by their own behavior. But they also feel that they really had no other option.

Rebecca: 16:37

Mm. Interesting.

Adam: 16:38

In the moment. I know that can be tough to hear.

Rebecca: 16:41

I think that's interesting because as we were talking about some earlier things, one of the things that keeps coming to my mind is that these couples lack communication skills. And this is something I can see even outside of sex with couples in therapy, but it's this inability to directly ask for what you want and then also deal with the answer. And so a lot of times we ask in coercive ways, manipulative ways for what we want because maybe it hasn't been modeled for us. Maybe we just haven't learned how to even ask or what we want, but we kind of get these more twisted ways, whether it's a manipulation or coercion, but maybe that's something that was presented in our household, where we couldn't directly ask for things we needed. And so we learned to be manipulative or coercive because that's how we get our needs met. And so yeah, it makes sense that people could potentially be disgusted with themselves, but in the moment, I want my needs met. And that can feel pretty desperate especially if you don't know how to ask and you don't have a healthy relationship where I can ask for something and someone kindly and compassionately responds to me and wants to meet my need. Yeah. Like that could feel so foreign to some people.

Adam: 17:51

and that segues nicely into the next behavior that comes up, which is gatekeeping. And we've talked about gatekeeping in other episodes, but this is especially high in this mutually dissatisfied group, which is where one partner's making all of the decisions Yes. Mm-hmm. Is to whether to engage in sex, what kind of sex and what that looks like. And so there were a couple of ways that showed up. For example, one man said, I've told her that I don't want her to have sex with me unless she really wants to. That's resulted in us having sex just a few times a year." Mm-hmm. So, we can unpack that phrase in a little bit, as we talk about what to do in some of these situations. But there's something in that statement that fully puts the ball in the other person's court. Mm-hmm. And one partner really holds all of the responsibility for determining when and how sex happens.

Rebecca: 18:39

yeah. And sometimes, I've seen this happen where one person is always the initiator and so sometimes the partner who's been on the receiving end of that has maybe felt pressure to please that other person. And sometimes to maybe regained balance couples will say like,"okay, well how about you be the initiator?" And that kind of doesn't work to have one person always being the initiator. I think a lot of times when you force that, what you lose is one partner remains unknown. Like, I'm not allowed to say when I want sex. I think one of the best things couples can do, is learning how to manage the"no" to sex. It's just interesting to think that like if I'm always waiting for my partner to initiate, they really don't know me, right? Like they really don't know how much I'm thinking about sex, how much I'm desiring them if I can't say or express that if I'm not allowed to? That's kind of an interesting idea when you think about it, to just be shut down in a way. This partner's just not aware of all the things that might be going on for you in terms of your desire and, and maybe even your love for that person, your desire to be close to'em. You're just not even saying any of it.

Adam: 19:46

Yeah. It shields you from having to be known, but it also puts a constant pressure on the partner who's the gatekeeper.

Rebecca: 19:53

Yeah.

Adam: 19:53

to make that decision. Mm-hmm. And to know when you're reaching your limit mm-hmm. Of not having enough sex.

Rebecca: 20:00

Yeah. one thing that's interesting and I've seen this in some other research that I've done, and I've also seen it clinically, it is kind of crazy how I've heard women talk about this knowing, this idea that like, ooh, he's getting really antsy and I probably need to give him sex. There is an appeasement sometimes that happens in couples, but I think usually it can feel like, okay, I need to appease my partner, but that also never really works because it's about appeasement, it's not about connection, right? So it really robs both people of what sex can be if it's more to manage your partner.

Adam: 20:37

Yeah, it does. That could be a tough cycle to break. That might be a nice segue into some of the outcomes here. And then we'll maybe give some sex-gestions? Oh, a, oh that's a new one for the keepy uppies. Yes.

20:56

This ad brought to you by One Condom Forever. I am King T'Challa. And as King T'Challa, I am here to tell you that there is a condom that will last you forever. Made out of pure vibranium. Don't trust any condom to block those little swimmers that have drunk the purple juice from the flower. Those suckers are strong, they swim straight through the plastic. You need vibranium grade condoms. If you don't believe me, King T'Challa, take this testimonial from one of our users. Yes, I am a female that has had sex with a Black Panther many times and not once have I gotten pregnant or a sexually transmitted disease from such an attractive man who's probably been with lots of women. That is right. You all hear her. And I just have to put a plug in for the extra ribbing. Vibranium definitely gives me a special sensation. Not too icy, not too hot. It's just right. With a little vibrate in that vibranium. Thank you, special listener. Wakandom forever. The condom that is one condom forever.

Adam: 22:07

So let's talk a little bit about what happens for these couples when they talk about sex? What are the outcomes? a pretty small percentage said that they do feel more connected when they talk about sex. Mm-hmm. So even though sex is bad, talking about sex still help them feel a little bit more connected to each other. And that might be the small percentage within this group that are working to make it better. even though they just don't have the answers and they haven't figured it out, or sex is still distressing, it hasn't been satisfying, they're having difficulty getting on the same page, whatever that might be. there are still some that, that may feel more connected.

Rebecca: 22:42

Yeah. I actually don't think that's uncommon Sometimes I feel like in really dissatisfied couples, you'll also find intense moments,of connection. So sometimes the couples are just more volatile. Mm-hmm. And so that's tricky to be on that rollercoaster. But it is interesting how sometimes when both people are dissatisfied, it may also be in part because they do have moments of really deep, intense connection. And so when they can't get that back easily, I can imagine that that would be really frustrating to like not really know how they make that happen sometimes. And then most of the time it's bad, but they live for this connection, wondering how can we get it back to that? And that's probably really painful.

Adam: 23:23

I think it is painful and that's why we have a really high percentage of arguing Yeah. Within this group. Yeah. Right. In fact, this was 50% higher than any of the other groups. Yeah. Where we saw much higher frequency of arguing when sex isn't going well. So those two things may come hand in hand. Now there may be this dynamic of oscillating back and forth between these volatile extremes, and also feeling really intense sexual highs.

Rebecca: 23:49

Mm-hmm.

Adam: 23:50

We see those dynamics in a lot of couples, but we also see situations where arguing just becomes the norm, that the way that sex is ever initiated comes from the result of arguing.

Rebecca: 24:01

Mm-hmm.

Adam: 24:02

There's this interesting theory out there that's been floated. It's kind of an old adage that says that when sex is bad in the relationship,

Rebecca: 24:10

we already talked about this.

Adam: 24:11

Oh, we talked about that already. Mm-hmm. Okay. We'll skip that.

Rebecca: 24:14

I thought you were gonna say makeup sex is really good.

Adam: 24:16

Yeah. Makeup sex is really good.

Rebecca: 24:20

Yeah. I mean, that could be a factor here, right? So many arguments. Maybe that connection comes after the arguments. Has anybody done research on that?

Adam: 24:28

The experience of makeup, sex?

Rebecca: 24:29

Yeah. I don't know. I'm not familiar with any.

Adam: 24:31

I've only read wearing makeup during sex, but I don't know about makeup sex alone.

Rebecca: 24:36

Wearing, wearing makeup during sex. Is that what you said?

Adam: 24:39

Yeah. Integrating it into the

Rebecca: 24:41

oh, interesting. Just kidding. Oh, I thought you were basic. It's like, put lipstick on me. Yeah. That's interesting. They like, make your eyebrows look really bad.

Adam: 24:52

Yeah. We should try that sometime.

Rebecca: 24:54

Each other's makeup.

Adam: 24:55

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca: 24:57

And then see

Adam: 24:59

who can last the longest without breaking out into laughter during sex. we'll just do terrible makeup jobs to each other. Aw.

Rebecca: 25:06

I think that'll be distracting. We'll probably just close our eyes.

Adam: 25:11

Yeah. Probably like, kind of renaissance French people, you know, like a lot of white

Rebecca: 25:17

Oh, okay.

Adam: 25:18

A lot of blush on the cheeks. That's what I'm looking at. Maybe look like a mime a little bit.

Rebecca: 25:23

Okay.

Adam: 25:23

That could be kind of fun.

Rebecca: 25:25

Well, that sounds like that's maybe a particular preference for you. I'm not aware of yet, or I haven't been aware of

Adam: 25:31

it. Yeah. Do you know how you would do my makeup if we were having makeup sex?

Rebecca: 25:37

No, I've literally never thought about it. Sorry. Entertain me. Sorry. Okay, I'm gonna, you don't wanna riff on that for a little bit. Okay. We can move on. Did you want me to riff on that? That's okay. No, that's, no, I have no thoughts about your makeup.

Adam: 25:51

That's fine.

Rebecca: 25:52

Anyway. Okay, so the last outcome for these couples reported was getting stuck. This wasn't a huge portion. It was 33%, so a third of them. But this makes sense, right? That both people would be dissatisfied if they're feeling stuck and that the solutions they attempt have not worked. So I think that's kind of a common sense outcome for them. So I think the big question we're left with is if you're in this situation where you are aware that both you and your partner are sexually dissatisfied, what the hell do I do now? You've maybe tried different things to get things back on track because I imagine that even though couples are dissatisfied, they don't wanna be in that situation. I think a lot of people want to be satisfied with their partner sexually and relationally. So, let's talk about some ideas we have for what people could do if they're in this situation.

Adam: 26:41

Well, it's not necessarily easy. These can be tough patterns to break out of. And of course there are a lot of differences within these groups. There can be so many complicating factors influencing why sex is really bad for both partners. Mm-hmm. So, whether there are medical complications, changes in people's bodies, whether it's having children and dealing with life changes as well. Or maybe you're still figuring out the dynamic within your relationship and figuring out sex. And so, there can be all sorts of different reasons that are influencing these dynamics. And of course, every couple's really different. But I think it's helpful to talk about how to get out of this because we might give this illusion that by producing a podcast that sex is always easy, but it's a lot of work. You know, you and I have had to work through a lot of different things and a lot of different questions and have tough conversations and I think there are different avenues, different resources for doing that based on whatever your needs are. But broadly, I think when both partners are dissatisfied, especially when we start to see some of the behaviors, the decision making processes and the different outcomes that we saw in this group, I think it can be really helpful to consider what is my part in this dynamic. Mm-hmm. Some of the comments that we've read as difficult as they may be to hear, like listening to the participant who talked about feeling that her partner was raping her. Mm-hmm. And now that they're married, he says she doesn't have a choice. Yeah. Or the man who reported that he just lets his partner decide whenever she wants to have sex. And so they have it once a year, right? Mm-hmm. Those can be confusing and really frustrating patterns to land in. And maybe you feel like you've made attempts to change'em and they haven't been successful. But I think it is really important for both partners in those scenarios to take a look and consider what their role in this dynamic is. Now, of course if rape is happening or if there's coercive sex, then that's different we're not talking about, what you needed to do to get out of that situation. I think there can be sometimes a lingering guilt and a lingering confusion that comes with sex for people who are survivors of sexual abuse. Mm-hmm. but for other folks who are navigating these really difficult dynamics, that's an important place to start to get some feedback on where you may be seeing this wrong, where you may be contributing to this dynamic. And if there are things that you can do to get the ball rolling, to move forward, to make things better.

Rebecca: 29:00

yeah. A lot of times when both partners are really dissatisfied, they're kind of stuck in a blame game, where I blame you for everything and you blame me for everything. And we're kind of in gridlock and I'm holding back from changing until you change. I see that a lot with couples. And so I do think examining and being really honest with yourself about what I do that contributes to the dynamic, is helpful and taking responsibility for that. I think a lot of times, because our partner has let us down, it can feel like it's gonna take a lot of energy to own our stuff, but I think at the end of the day, I would encourage people to really say, how am I showing up as a partner? Am I even being the kind of partner that I imagined I'd be? And if I'm not, then I need to take responsibility for that, not my partner. So we thought of a few questions that maybe you could ask yourself to help you look at what your partner may be in this dynamic. One thing I think could be helpful for couples to talk with each other about is how do I handle when my partner says no? And maybe get feedback from your partner, because a lot of times when a partner says no, sometimes they can think, I'm just here trying to deal with my disappointment, but they may not be aware of how their body language communicates to you that it's like, you're gonna pay for this, right? That there's some sort of emotional contempt coming your way, that you may feel emanating from their body or something. So I think both examining for yourself, how you handle when someone says no to you, and then also getting feedback from your partner could be really helpful. Because to say yes to sex and really mean it, you have to be able to say no. If you can't say no, your yes means shit. It just doesn't mean anything. Mm-hmm. You've gotta be able to say no. That is what lets you and your partner both know that you have full bodily autonomy. So I think learning to say no really well is one of the best things you can do for your sexual relationship.

Adam: 30:59

And learning how to hear No.

Rebecca: 31:01

Yes.

Adam: 31:01

In a way that doesn't turn you away from your partner, but can open you up to other avenues of exploring connection and being close, And also learning how to receive No," how to be told,"no."

Rebecca: 31:14

Yeah.

Adam: 31:15

Yeah. It might be helpful to think do you really know what is satisfying for your partner? Now, I think that's a helpful question, especially for couples who are mutually dissatisfied. Mm-hmm. Because when there is compromise, when there are these gatekeeping behaviors or there's manipulation mm-hmm. You may just think that you know exactly what your partner likes about sex, but sometimes it's the not knowing that actually ends up fueling these dynamics cause we think we have a really clear idea of who this person is and we've really condensed that and encapsulated it all, sometimes in one small package, right? Mm-hmm. Maybe it's,"she just wants to be in control of it all." Yeah. And so whenever she wants to have sex, she's just gonna decide to, and that's what's gonna happen. Mm-hmm. But there's more to that. so, it may be helpful to take an inventory of mm-hmm. Some of the things that you really know regarding your partner's sexual identity and who they are.

Rebecca: 32:07

Yeah. I think a lot of times people, they watch movies, they watch porn or they hear about something from someone else and they think they've learned what sex should be. Like this is good sex. This is what good sex looks like. And so then I think they try to perform it in the bedroom. And the problem is it's not responsive to the person in front of you, right? So sometimes people wanna have more talking during sex, some people want less talking during sex. But you need to know what's good for your partner. Because if you saw a video and you said, oh, they did this whole thing and they were talking and they were doing this and it was so great, well, that might've been interesting to you. But if that's not interesting to your partner, then all of a sudden you're kind of forcing a fantasy on your partner. And I think a lot of times people are pretty unaware. And I see this a lot with men where I feel like, you know, unfortunately I think media and porn a lot of times has been geared towards male fantasy. And so a lot of men, I think, are desperately trying to create a good experience for their female partner, but it's all based on a lot of content that is male fantasy based. And I think it's helpful to really think about do I know what my partner likes? Because a lot of times I think women come to the table and a lot of times they don't know what they like and they haven't really had a lot of room to explore that. It's kind of like, oh, my partner suggested we try x, y, z out and I never had time to think about what I really wanted. So, and it goes for both ways. I think if it feels like your partner is always bringing things, and this is not for all couples. I think some couples really appreciate when a partner has watched porn and brings that and says like,"Hey, I have a new idea." But I think sometimes for other couples, it can feel like you're always bringing outside ideas, but you're not really bringing anything from yourself. Mm-hmm. And I think that can be hard too. So I think it's like a both- and. Do I know what's interesting to my partner sexually? And also do I even take time to think what's interesting to me sexually, or am I just regurgitating sexual scripts that have been laid out for me by media? And so in that way, maybe I'm not really bringing a lot to the table when it comes to us co-creating something together.

Adam: 34:13

Yeah. There can be this paradoxical element to sex where really satisfying sex is both being playful, but also being very serious and intimate. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Or maybe it's being creative and also being in a routine. Mm-hmm. And it's also these contrasting elements that are all simultaneously present. Yeah. In sex. I think there, there's also this paradox where you're bringing a fantasy, you're sharing, you're imagining mm-hmm. But you're also sharing at the same time. And so by doing that, you're being known, but you're also in disguise. There's a performance, but there's also a vulnerability. Mm-hmm. And if sex drifts in any one of those extremes too much mm-hmm. Or really stays in any one of those extremes, it becomes dissatisfying for both partners. Mm. I think it's always about finding an important balance between those different elements. Yeah. It takes a lot of self-reflection to identify, and sometimes it can really require some sort of outside perspective to break out of the dynamic that you're stuck in. Yeah. Whether that's the therapist or talking it over with a friend, somebody whose advice you trust mm-hmm. And getting their perspective on how your dynamic can improve. Oftentimes you may not be able to see that until somebody points out, different way to approach or engage in sex.

Rebecca: 35:36

Yeah. That's a good point. I liked what you were saying, I had never really thought about it that way, but that idea sex often becomes routine because there's certain ways that you and your partner know you both orgasm or work well together. Then that idea of moving too much into imagination. As you were saying that, I was like, oh yeah, I can see this for some of my clients where there's like literally moments where they feel like they've lost their partner, right? Like the person has gone into the fantasy and they're no longer here with me. it is interesting to think about it that way, that that paradox and how it's a fine line. But I don't know if that feels like, ah, now it's so nuanced or complicated, like, how do I get that just right?

Adam: 36:10

That's a little ethereal. But I think it is helpful to consider, because oftentimes, as we've talked about complaining coming up so often in these groups, typically a complaint is, our relationship is not enough blank," or we always do blank." Mm-hmm. Or"we don't do enough of blank." Yeah. So I think that's where the differences between partners, not enough sex, too much sex. Mm-hmm. We have the same sex or we're doing too many new things and we're not doing whatever works or is really satisfying or fulfilling. And so I think when both people are really working on the relationship, it really naturally brings it to an equilibrium.

Rebecca: 36:42

Yeah. You know, when you were sharing that about complaining, a thought I had was. One thing that people could possibly do because complaining is so often like, what we're not doing right or we're not doing this enough. And one way I think you could begin to kind of change your communication is to recognize that, so, okay, we're not having sex as often as I want. And sometimes you do need a bigger conversation about that, but sometimes I think it's really helpful to just say, Hey, I've missed being sexual with you and I've thought I'd really like to have sex sometime this week. I wanna give you time and space to think about that, but I just wanted to put it on your radar, and if you think that could happen, just let me know. But that's something that I'm hoping for that we could find some time to do that." And I think when you can directly approach and ask for what you want, like present a possible solution. A lot of times your partner is gonna be more responsive to that than if you come to your partner and say, we haven't had sex in three weeks, and I have a spreadsheet here where I've kept track of all the times we've had sex. Maybe it's not, you're not coming with a spreadsheet, but that does happen sometimes, or people are tracking how much their partner is willing to have sex. But I think coming with the solution directly, asking for it, sometimes that can be a way of changing the dynamic rather than just always coming from a deficit. I think that can help a lot of people.

Adam: 37:58

It can, but as I'm hearing you say that, even saying. I'm hoping this is something that you can do. I also know other people who that comment would drive them absolutely insane.

Rebecca: 38:08

Mm-hmm. Well, yeah. Maybe you gotta help the couple figure out what way to ask for sex. That feels okay. Right? Absolutely.

Adam: 38:15

I can also hear some of those situations where if you tell a partner as sweetly as possible mm-hmm. That you want to have sex and that you'd really hope for that. Can we make that happen? That also may drive another partner Crazy. Like I said, oftentimes these dynamics are actually like a game of chess. You have to make very small moves in particular ways in order to not upset another partner too much. So sometimes there's a really delicate balance of what to say and what not to say in these couples and there's a lot to consider in finding new ways to talk about this. So, broadly we've talked about a couple of important principles to really consider as ways to move forward but I think that will look very different from couple to couple. So that's my thought. I don't know that there is always a helpful solution as we talk about giving advice here. There's not a magic question to get out of these situations. You know, you, see these clickbait articles of, what to say to your partner when your sex life is terrible. You know, I don't have anything like that. I think there may be some statements that work for a good number of folks, but there are also an infinite variety of things that you could say, and what may make the difference for one couple, wouldn't make a difference for different couples.

Rebecca: 39:29

Yeah. And I think if it does feel like for a couple, really delicate like that, where it feels like almost anything I say is gonna set the other person off or is gonna be misinterpreted, that's probably a really good time to get a therapist, if you haven't already, and really work with somebody who's, you know, a third party to help you understand the dynamic, understand what's going on, because that can be the case where there's so much resentment and pain between the two people that it can be difficult to reverse that yourself. So I would hope that people could feel that they could reach out to a therapist. I would recommend a sex therapist or a MFT who does sex therapy, a marriage and family therapist. But you definitely want somebody who's trained in couples and sex.

Adam: 40:12

Or some really kind of like crunchy, kooky lady, that like lives in the neighborhood. Maybe she has some crystals that might help you.

Rebecca: 40:22

Crystals!

Adam: 40:23

yeah. We'll talk a lot about your chakras. I think maybe just give them a shot too. If you have nowhere else to go,

Rebecca: 40:29

if you have no else to go,

Adam: 40:31

it's worth a shot.

Rebecca: 40:32

Yeah. There were a couple of other questions, if you're ready to ask yourself the hard questions, I think that could be helpful for you to ponder and think about, you know, what is my role in this? How am I showing up that maybe contributes to this dynamic that we can't seem to get on the same page sexually. And we already talked about a little bit of those, like how do you handle when your partner says no? Do I know what my partner likes sexually? Do I know what I like sexually? Another one is who sex are we having? I think a lot of times you're having one partner's sex and it's not something you both create that is the sum of you two. So that may be a helpful question to ask. I think asking yourself the question of where am I selfish? Is there any part of me that's selfish in this? Whether that's withholding sex or demanding sex, or if it comes to what we're doing when we're having sex, I think that's something important to think about. Another one is, are we playful? Do we know how to be playful in sex? I think that's a huge part of successful sexual relationships is that there is a playfulness. That sex is a place adults come to play. And so I think that is maybe something to think about, like, when's the last time you felt playful in sex? And then I think the last question that comes to my mind is, what am I not doing right now that I know that I could do that would make my partner more open to me sexually? And I think for some people that can be helping out more with the kids, making sure I get a good night's rest. What are some other ones? I think there's a lot of things people's partners have asked from them.

Adam: 42:00

Bathing,

Rebecca: 42:01

oh yes, hygiene is good. Yes. Am I not showering? This was like a real thing where the person was like, I would love to have sex, but he does not shower when he gets home from work, and he did a very physically taxing jobs, so he was smelly. And it's like if he had just showered every day, she would've been open to sex. Right. Hmm. So yeah. That's a good one. Any others?

Adam: 42:22

Chewing with your mouth open. Picking up your socks.

Rebecca: 42:26

Maybe taking someone out. Like, I think that can be really painful too, if your partner never plans anything for you two or doesn't get you gifts. Like sometimes there's just this familiarity that comes with being in a long-term relationship. And sometimes our partners ask for us to do a lot of things and sometimes just doing the simple thing can make a huge difference for a partner. Like Showering, Something as basic as that.

Adam: 42:48

Great. I think we wrap up our season on that, don't you think? Shower everybody?

Rebecca: 42:54

Yeah. And on that note,

Adam: 42:55

until next season shower.

Rebecca: 43:00

Yeah. I think that's pretty good. That's solid advice. We definitely went to all those years of school to give that advice on a podcast.

Adam: 43:08

Yeah. We were really building toward that point through all these episodes. So you've made it to the end of the season. How do you feel?

Rebecca: 43:15

How do I feel?

Adam: 43:15

Yeah. Good. We finished season.

Rebecca: 43:18

Yeah, we did. We finished season one. There are some bonus episodes after this that are about answering questions.

Adam: 43:25

Bonus episodes.

Rebecca: 43:27

I could barely understand that.

Adam: 43:29

Yeah. You gotta listen to it twice to know what I'm singing about episodes. Yeah.

Rebecca: 43:36

So I don't know that this is the end of the season, but it is the end of the season with us going over this particular research. Yeah.

Adam: 43:41

Anything you're listening to after this point was already recorded, so,

Rebecca: 43:46

surprise. Yeah. All right. Well, yeah, I think that's it for today. We really appreciate you listening to keeping it Up with the Joneses and until next season, keep it up.

Adam: 43:57

Keep it up.

Rebecca: 44:07

Thank you for listening to Keeping it Up with the Joneses. For more content, follow us on Instagram or Facebook. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please do these three things. First, subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. Second, rate and review the podcast, and third, share your favorite episode with a partner, friend, or family member. We are grateful for your support and look forward to joining you next week. Until then, keep it up.

Adam: 46:28

Are we still saying our names at the beginning? I don't think we should, should say. Yeah.

Rebecca: 46:31

I think you need, I think you, yes, you need to do it every single time. Okay. You never know when someone is listening for the first time.

Adam: 46:36

Sure. Maybe they go straight to this episode'cause their sex life sucks.

Rebecca: 46:42

Or someone tells them, you need to listen to this.

Adam: 46:44

They think it's all about oral.

Rebecca: 46:50

Well, that would be a more fun episode, I guess. Okay, go ahead.

Adam: 46:54

All right. Are we recording? Yeah, I'm recording this whole time. Oh, oh good. That's good.'cause I laughed at that last thing. I thought that was funny. Alright,

Rebecca: 47:02

hold on. Now I gotta cough. Did you have anything you wanted to say to respond to that?

Adam: 47:09

Yeah. It does.

Rebecca: 47:12

Were you even listening to me?! I was, yeah.

Adam: 47:16

I just don't feel like I can get many words out. I do you have your water? Yeah, I do. Okay.

47:22

This podcast is brought to you by Freud. Specifically, the anal stage. We all go through one. Some later than others. Some never get out. Wherever you are. We sure haven't wherever you are in your development. Just know that Freud was always thinking about sex and he changed history.