Keeping It Up With the Joneses

Bonus Episode: Questions and Sexgestions Part 1 - Painful Sex and a Religious Upbringing

• Rebecca Lucero Jones • Season 1 • Episode 8

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Questions and Sexgestions Part 1 - Painful Sex and a Religious Upbringing

In this episode of Keeping It Up with the Joneses, hosts welcome Marliett, a social worker and therapist, to answer listeners' questions.The discussion focuses on a listener's dilemma involving painful intercourse and low libido despite attempts through various therapies. The hosts provide professional insights suggesting potential approaches including individual exploration, communicating sexual needs with a partner, and considering the impacts of a religious upbringing. They emphasize the importance of removing pressure, broadening the definition of sex, and introducing mindfulness and somatic techniques. The conversation highlights the necessity of mutual understanding and the role of personalized sexual experiences in relationship satisfaction.

00:00 Welcome and Guest Introduction
00:53 Marliett's Background and Fun Facts
04:55 Listener Question: Painful Sex and Vaginismus
07:25 Exploring Solutions and Therapy
11:42 Religious Context and Navigating Religious Messages About Sex
28:00 Addressing Sexual Conversations and Education
30:44 The Importance of Sexual Knowledge and Therapy
32:32 Final Thoughts and Sexgestions

Adam:

Welcome to Keeping It Up With The Joneses! Another friendly episode with a special guest today.

Rebecca:

Let's have her introduce herself. You want to

Adam:

introduce yourself? Marliett, tell us a little bit about, actually, Rebecca, why don't you introduce our guest?

Rebecca:

Okay.

Adam:

And then she can add some other bits to it.

Rebecca:

Okay. Marliett is a very special person. She is my friend of over a decade. I think we figured out, it's 15 years.

Marliett:

It's 2008, yeah.

Rebecca:

Yeah, unfortunately, we are that old. But she is the OG Homeslice, and a great vacationer in both Costa Rica and in Europe, and she also just happens to be A social worker and therapist. And so we have invited her to join us for this episode where we are going to answer your burning questions about sexual relationships. So Marliett, why don't you add any details that you want our audience to know.

Marliett:

Okay. I live in Utah currently, Provo, Utah. I run a private practice by myself. my name is like Bob Marley and Juliet put together. It's like they got married and had a kid and put their names together. That is not how my parents named me.

Adam:

I would love that image to see.

Marliett:

Yeah.

Adam:

What a great couple that would have been.

Marliett:

Yeah, dreadlocks and lost love. Yeah. Yeah, that's not how my parents came up with it, but in third grade I figured nobody could say my name, so I took matters into my own hands.

Rebecca:

Well, our three year old can say your name, so it can be done.

Adam:

I'm still stuck on Bob Marley and Bob Dylan. I mean, I'm thinking, if Bob Dylan sang reggae, what an arrangement that would have been.

Rebecca:

I can't even imagine it. So anyway, carry on. So do you say Carly yet? Carly yet. Carly yet Marley yet. We'll just change your name.

Marliett:

I have worked in various settings. I worked in an eating disorder clinic, a couple of them. And then university Counseling Center, and then a few residential treatment centers, and I have been on my own in private practice for a while, and that's been one of the best choices I've ever made, doing my own private practice. Anything else?

Adam:

Bit of a world traveler as of late, right?

Marliett:

Yes, I'm a bit of a world traveler. Spent a lot of time in Europe in the last two years, three months this year, and then two months last year. And I love adventuring around and just learning more about different cultures. I'm the youngest of 16 children. Fun fact.

Rebecca:

That's more than a fun fact. People are often taking a few moments to process that. We should have reacted more strongly to that, but we're all aware of it.

Adam:

What? Yes, you heard that right, ladies and gentlemen. 16 children.

Rebecca:

Okay, but today I just saw on social media a post about Nick Cannon and a few other fathers, and they were like, these people have so many kids, and I think Nick Cannon has 12 kids, and then it listed how many baby mamas he had. But I was like, wait, that's not a lot of kids per mom. I thought, when it's the same mom and dad, and it's 16 kids, like, that's a lot. I think people are miscalculating this. I thought, they don't know anybody in Utah, because they're looking at these men that have, like, multiple baby mamas and less than 16 kids. And I'm like, there's got to be hundreds of families in Utah that have 10 kids or more to one mom.

Adam:

How old was your mom when she gave birth to you?

Marliett:

She was 41.

Adam:

41. Whoa,

Marliett:

she had 16 by 41? 16 by 41. She had 21 pregnancies. 21. Five of them were not full term though. I have one mom and one dad. These are the questions people ask. Did we have a TV? Yes. How many moms and dads do you have? Yes, we had a TV. Yes, we did.

Adam:

Age of your mom for the first child then? 16 kids within how many years?

Marliett:

So my oldest brother would be, he would be 22 years older than I am.

Adam:

23?

Marliett:

So he would be 62. Wow. If he were still alive.

Rebecca:

So, yeah, like almost every year she was pregnant.

Marliett:

Wow. That's a lot. It's a lot. She's pregnant for a long time. 22 years ish.

Rebecca:

I'm just thinking, Trita's pretty fertile.

Marliett:

Fertile Myrtle.

Rebecca:

Yeah. I mean, it's just impressive. Like, what a wonder!

Marliett:

You wonder why she has a license plate that says, 16 kids. Is

Adam:

that really it?

Rebecca:

She fell asleep at the Z.

Adam:

What was the longest you think she went without being pregnant?

Marliett:

Like less than a year.

Adam:

Wow.

Marliett:

Okay.

Adam:

Wow.

Marliett:

For 22 years. Just let that sink in a little bit.

Adam:

I

Marliett:

am. That's big.

Adam:

It's sinking.

Rebecca:

My uterus just,

Marliett:

your whole body is like, please.

Adam:

Mine did too. My uterus is not a fan.

Rebecca:

Oh dear. Okay. All right. Well, let's jump into the questions. We have some great questions that have been submitted and we really appreciate those who took the time to submit some questions. Let's go ahead and start with I'm not going to read it word for word because I don't want to give away any possible identifying details. Although the question was anonymous. Okay, so this couple has been married for 11 years. This is a woman writing in. She says that she has a health condition where it creates painful penetration, vaginismus, more specifically and she even says that this causes sex to be incredibly painful for her. She shares that she's a virgin before they got married and found all of this out. So, they couldn't even have sex on their honeymoon. They get married and then afterwards discover that she's got some serious pain issues with sex. They've gone through seven years of pelvic floor physical therapy, psychological therapy including EMDR and other medical interventions that allowed them to be able to have conceived four children, which is really cool that they were able to use all those resources to do that. But even despite all the attempts they've made to solve the situation she shares that one sex is still slightly painful and rarely super pleasurable for her. She admits that she's never orgasmed. And then second, she says Because her libido is really low, she almost never wants sex, although she does share that she loves the idea of sex, she reads romance novels and she's not offended by the idea of sex and then third, she shares that she was raised and currently attends a very conservative religion, which has made discussion of the problem difficult for the both of them, and so she's just asking where they go from here and where do they go to break through the current wall that they still have.

Marliett:

Yeah. Good question. Yeah. This is an awesome question. Tender for her to share that. Yeah.

Adam:

So, yeah, with 11 years of a lot of relationship history too, it's tricky to answer questions over this when we're normally used to being in a therapy session where we can get a lot of a lot more detail, but it's not uncommon to come across couples where they've been struggling with these or similar problems throughout the course of their entire marriage, and there are several bits and pieces of information in here. There, there's questions about painful sex. There's a piece about orgasm and experiencing pleasure during sex. There's pieces about the different treatments and also the religious pieces. There's also the communication pieces of what goes on with the relationship. So, a lot of pieces to jump onto. Anybody want to start?

Rebecca:

I want to start with one thing.

Adam:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

And then I think we can probably go over her three different points. But the first thing I want to say is just that you should feel really good about the work that they've done. I think they should feel really good about the fact that they have been open to help. I think that's step number one is being open to help. There's a lot of help out there, but a lot of people are embarrassed or ashamed to ask for help. So I think it's really awesome that they've gotten help and that they've been able to conceive for children. So they've been able to overcome some things, and then they also wrote in, which I think is really awesome. So yeah I just think that shows a willingness to learn. And I think that's one of the most important attributes a person can have when it comes to sex is just a willingness and a curiosity. So I just wanted to start off with that.

Marliett:

Yeah, I agree. I have some automatic questions and if she were here with us, we could ask these questions. I think that's really great, beautiful, they've been able to try different things. I wonder what is the hardest part about talking about sex at this point for them or what are some of the threats that are there that they might be trying to dodge or kind of go away from? I would want to explore Because she mentioned that it may be tied to a religious context.

Rebecca:

Yes.

Marliett:

And it could also be tied to some shame from the last 11 years of struggling. And so it sounds like EMDR has been helpful. I'm curious, at this point, what's the hardest part about talking about it, or what's the scariest part about it, or scary parts of it? And then where would she like to go from here? What would she like to see happen? What would she like to be different?

Rebecca:

Yeah. Those are great questions.

Marliett:

Yeah. Cause it sounds like they're fairly resourceful in seeking out support. And then I automatically, of course, always think of how does she feel about her body? And what her body has been able to do, or the limitations of her body. How does she perceive herself? How is her body perceived by her partner in the home? what are some of those thoughts or feelings?

Rebecca:

Yeah, those are great questions. And maybe if you're listening, you can journal about them. Ha ha ha. Yeah. But no, I mean, those are good questions to maybe get them started talking about it, or they could bring it up in couples therapy. One thing I do notice is that the question didn't include couples therapy. And so that's something I would also be curious about. It sounds like maybe she did EMDR. This is not uncommon, unfortunately, that people who enter marriage as virgins and do experience very painful sex, that the first time of having sex with a partner can be traumatizing. A lot of times they haven't really gone through the bases before they do the home run. And so they're not lubricated. They go straight to penetration, intercourse. And so it can be traumatic if you really weren't prepared and don't have the knowledge of what you would need to do to have that be a pleasant experience. So I'm wondering if on some level as a couple, they haven't really gotten the help to help them communicate about this. I guess that's a question I'm curious about, too.

Adam:

Yeah, this reminded me of one of the things that really piqued my interest during my master's degree and I heard about this case, I wasn't there, but a group was watching behind the window and they said, we just watched a couple that had been married 35 years and the wife just disclosed to the husband that she had never had an orgasm. And they just watched the look on the husband's face and he was devastated. He was so embarrassed that, the wife had been either faking orgasms or,

Marliett:

Yeah.

Adam:

or had been pretending to enjoy sex and that wasn't to say that it wasn't ever enjoyable, to engage playfully with the husband, but never was it out of a real genuine expression of her own pleasure. And that was pretty interesting. That may not necessarily be the case here. But reading into it, like you mentioned that was something that really sparked my interest in studying couples sexual communication. hearing stories like that and several of these other stories where I was shocked that this couple had been together 35 years or something like that and had never had this conversation. and honestly listening to this, I wonder if that's a really useful place to start. Now they mentioned that, There are religious factors that can make it really difficult for them to talk about. And so, what are your thoughts in terms of a starting point where religious ideas or maybe even religious culture or the taboo sensitivity around sexuality from a religious standpoint might be getting in the way? Any ideas on where you would start?

Rebecca:

Well, I actually attended a conference that had a really interesting presentation, and not all of our listeners might be familiar with the concept of differentiation, which is the idea that I can be my own person, and I can regulate my own anxiety, and I can be close to somebody else, but they're different from me and one of the things they talked about in this was that religion often has God and sex being very separate and that they're like not allowed to be together in Christian religions, which I thought was kind of an interesting concept. And I thought back to my own upbringing and thinking about how, a lot of times when you're raised in a very conservative religion there's so many messages and they're not all necessarily negative about sex, but sex is very siloed and it's only allowed in certain ways. And so it's very much, yeah, it's off limits. Don't. And then all of a sudden in certain contexts, it's completely okay. And in fact you need to be good at it, right? Like, so if you're a good wife you're going to be a virgin, but then somehow you're going to be a sex goddess once you're married, because you're going to satisfy your husband. And so I think there's a lot of expectation but not a lot of training on some level or education. So people just expect that if we're good and we do everything in the religion, that things should just flow, things should just work out for us. And so I think there's probably a grief.

Marliett:

That's what I've been thinking.

Rebecca:

That might be there, that we did everything we were supposed to do, and then now we're married and sex is supposed to be something that adds to our marriage and it's such a pain point.

Marliett:

Yeah. I've been thinking about grief this whole time, grief about how many of our years we were not participating in sexual activities and then all of a sudden it's on, it's within limits and we can participate and then the grief from not having known certain things and who knows how much these parents educated them or gave them information about sex or even encouraged them to explore their body. But I've been thinking gosh, I wonder if there's just a fair amount of grief about not really being able to live in your body to some extent, there's like this, lack of permission to explore and experience your body as it is yours. And this may not be true for this person, but I think this is true for lots of people when sex is off limits, then exploring or experiencing your body becomes taboo as well. Yes. And there's grief associated with not knowing yourself. Not only just like mentally, emotionally, intellectually, but also physically. I think that getting to know yourself physically and sexually is so important. And then I think grief with we got married, we made it. Now this subject is within limits, but it's not working, and how much have we been able to really explore? Gosh, the last 11 years, it sounds like one thing they've done is they're well resourced, right? And even sometimes I think in being well resourced, and I don't, know if this is true for this person, but we look for answers without spending time with the grief and allowing there to be space for this is so painful and understandably we do that. We want things to be over. We want it to end. But I think that's really hard that it's been hard for so long and it's hard that there hasn't been the education and spaciousness to explore things. And I realize I'm making some assumptions about this. But I think that grief in general, there's like a lot of pieces to be grieved in this space and not even just like by crying, but also I would say like physically allowing grief out of the body through like somatic approaches, allowing grief to exit the body.

Rebecca:

Yeah. As you were saying that one thing I thought about too, when you said now they can engage sexually. They can also talk about it. One thing I've thought about before is there's so many ways we're taught to do relationships in our families.

Marliett:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

Like I think about how, right now, we are teaching our kids about finances by giving them allowance and teaching them how to manage a debit card and look at the bank account. So even in families, parents teach kids how to how to Talk about finances, which can be a difficult thing to talk about in a relationship. But really, sex is something that you really only talk about with your romantic partner, right? You don't talk about it with your parents. You don't negotiate it with a lot of other people except for partners. So I think it's one of those things where somehow in the movies, everything just flows, and we're kind of expected to have this skill of being able to communicate about sex, but they really are beginning for the very first time, Especially if they're in a marriage where they haven't had sexual relationships before, and so I think that's really important to remember too. You're learning to crawl, and then walk, and then run, and so, I do think It's important to recognize that you've never been taught how to do this, and it's okay that you don't know how to do it,

Marliett:

right?

Rebecca:

It's really normal for people to not know how to talk about sex, and that's why we have a podcast, right? To help them start somewhere. So, I think your original question, Adam, was like where can we help them to start? Do you have ideas about that?

Adam:

There are probably some individual things to explore and then to discuss those at the couple level. It was mentioned earlier, but yeah, all of the treatments, It sounds like really this has been a journey for one partner. Now, I don't want to read into that too much, and oftentimes if we push to say this is a couple problem, there can be a real push to defend the other partner. This is really my problem. so I want to be careful that we don't read into this too much because There may be some couple elements here something going on between the two of them, but also some areas to explore individually as well, so I would say one of the very first steps that can be useful in treatment like this, especially with genital pelvic pain disorder, is starting with directed masturbation. Rather than a communication piece, taking time to explore your genitals, sitting in front of a mirror or with a hand mirror And holding it between your legs and just taking time to sit with some of those things. For a lot of women that's a really important starting point of just being able to sit there and experience their body and see what feelings come up as they sit with it. And that's where that grief piece can come in. So. So there's a real mindfulness element that comes with this to be able to sit with your body to experience whatever feelings come up in the moment, but then to be able to communicate those when it's time. Now you may need your own time to explore yourself, to feel comfortable, to recognize what you're feeling, and then to be able to either work toward a point where you can discuss that with your partner or if you feel comfortable discussing that with your partner right away. It's very important that your partner's involved in this process because as you learn what is and is not pleasurable for your own body your partner's going to need to be keyed into that. And oftentimes, if you go through an entire journey of exploring your body all by yourself, if you get to the point where you can identify what is and is not pleasurable, oftentimes a lot of men can feel left out of that process. And it can be really bonding for a lot of couples to communicate about that and discover it together. But it depends on what you're comfortable with. If you want your partner in the room while you do that directed masturbation, especially mentioning the conservative religion piece the idea of masturbation can be incredibly shame inducing. It can be very taboo, but we're usually offering this as a treatment option, taking the time to explore your own sexual response and to identify what your sexual response looks like, what is arousing what's erotic to you, what's pleasurable, what's not pleasurable, different types of touch. It's not always just your genitals too, I mention that, But moving beyond and exploring other parts of your body as well to see what is or is not comfortable is usually a good place to start. And usually we do this by taking sex off the table.

Rebecca:

Yeah, you mean intercourse?

Adam:

Intercourse. So let's not do anything with penetrative sex. We're not even touching each other's genitals. So you may be touching your own genitals or exploring the sensations that come up for you, but we're not touching each other. And really that just creates an environment to be able to safely explore. We're removing the pressure of needing to push this forward in one direction or another.

Marliett:

Which I think can be anxiety provoking for some couples because when I've had my couples take sex off the table, there's a fear of a loss of attachment that if they are not having intercourse, they lose attachment to their partner. And I think it's really important for couples in that space to remember that we're not not interacting. Yeah. We're making space for sensuality, for exploring the body, for holding one another in spaces of grief and pain, and that can oftentimes feed a level of emotional intimacy and sexual intimacy that will improve. the intercourse parts of sex or the more intimate parts of sex that they explore, whether they're a heterosexual couple or a homosexual couple, right? Yeah.

Adam:

Yeah. And it's not a forever forbidding of sex either. It's typically as part of a process of figuring out what works and what doesn't work. And so.

Marliett:

Yeah. Sorry. Which is interesting because I think that like when we think about some couples, some partners are responsive and their desire and some are spontaneous in their desire. And I'm thinking of Emily Nagoski's come as you are book. And I think,

Rebecca:

jinx!

Marliett:

Yeah, I think that it's important for people to get to know their sexual style. Because that's probably also playing in this situation and definitely needs to be looked at like, is she responsive and are there things in the home environment that she needs to have be done rather than, just hopping on the sex wagon before her body's actually ready and revved up for that.

Adam:

That's all part of that feeling it out process, that sensei process, If you're trying to relax, trying to experience your body, if your mind keeps slipping to the dishes that aren't done, then that's what you communicate, That's what needs to be shared back and forth in the relationship. And you build a new vocabulary as to what successful sex looks like.

Rebecca:

Yeah. Because she talks about her libido being really low, but she also talks about liking the idea of sex, reading romance novels, which indicates to me that there's definitely a libido that's there. But I'm thinking a lot of women actually don't experience arousal before sex starts, meaning that a lot of women need to be with their partner being affectionately touched not necessarily sexually touched before they're ever going to experience arousal, so women often need something else that will relax them and then they will usually get aroused. Obviously some women experience spontaneous arousal, but most women actually don't. And so I think that's important too, is if she feels pain when touching her genitals, obviously that can interfere with this process, right? Rather than it like calming and getting her aroused then it's kind of sending a warning like, and so that I think is going to be something to explore too, is what kinds of touch do feel good to her, help her to feel relaxed in her body? Because it could be that they're going to the genitals too quickly. Or, another thought I have is sex is so much more than intercourse, There are people that have disabilities and have to do sex differently. And a lot of people are able to work around these issues that they may have where they might have loss of function. And really I think sex is about how does your partner like to be touched and loved, physically, and how do you like to be touched and loved physically? It's a sharing of your body and it doesn't just need to look one way. And that may be difficult in a religious context. Like, I know in my family growing up I remember the first time oral sex came up. It was like, no, oral sex is not okay. And I was like okay. Because I had some friends that were having oral sex, and I was like okay. That's like, never okay? Okay. Like, I just, I didn't know what to do with that information. Yeah. Because people in school were talking about it, and it felt so normal to me in my context of school. So I was really surprised to have this religious message coming from adults, saying that's a no. But if that's a no,then that would be a question I have, right? Is what things have been taken off the table by religion? Like how has religion prevented creativity, prevented you from acting out on fantasy? Because I'm wondering if sex is about intercourse, about procreation. And so sometimes when it's about procreation, even though there's like allowances for you to do it for fun sometimes it still needs to be intercourse. Does that make sense? Like it would never just be okay to have oral sex in some people's minds. So I'd be really curious about that too, is like, how can they expand their definition of sex so that it really pleases both of them. Not so much that it meets somebody else's definition.

Marliett:

Well, and I think that also brings in, like is he responsive or spontaneous in his desire? And what is his own experience with his genitals? and what is his own experience with exploring his own sexuality? Yeah. And I think that not all men are spontaneous. in fact, I've worked with a lot of men who have a more responsive desire. So are they both in the same camp or are they in different camps? What does that look like for them? Yeah. Are they trying to get to the finish line too fast and so they might be rushing it so it feels less slow like we're talking about? Yeah. I don't know. We don't know. These are the questions. These are the answers. We won't know unless she tells us. Yeah.

Adam:

Yeah. Another thing, as I'm reading this over, I'm noticing the comment that my libido is really low and I almost never want sex. I love the idea of sex, I read romance novels, so I'm not offended by the idea. And so I think that's something worth considering too, is often times, there's actually some contradictory research on this several people had published articles saying that romance novels were the women's way of avoiding sex and that the more women read romance novels, the more it impacts their sexual satisfaction, but there's actually disagreeing ideas on that. A lot of women can use romance novels to enhance their sex life. The challenge is I think Knowing what romance novels do for your sexual relationship. What does it do to you as an individual? do you masturbate when you read the romance novels? is there a lot of fantasy that you experience? Does the fantasy continue beyond just the reading? Or do you fantasize about what you've read in other times of the day? Do you fantasize in that same way during sexual intercourse? And sometimes, I think what can be really beneficial, there can also oftentimes be a lot of shame around reading romance novels for a lot of women. I think they're oftentimes told that it's just fantasy. But that's another great area to start communicating with the partner about communicating with your spouse about. What is it you read that got you excited? What is it that interested you? and that's a great

Marliett:

Court of horns and roses, everyone.

Adam:

What was that?

Marliett:

if anyone needs a good sex book recommendation. A Court of Mist and Fury. It's that series. Anyway, go ahead. All right.

Rebecca:

Well, I wanted to say one thing, too, and this may be a starting place for them, is to just read a book together.

Adam:

Yes. Like,

Rebecca:

read a romance novel together so he can learn. What is her fantasy? I think a lot of men are often informed by movies and pornography. And so, and a lot of those are not accurate to how women's sexuality works. But romance novels get women every single time, right? They're very detailed, and there's something about them that's slow enough, that it tortures the woman. And that's how a woman wants to be, she wants to be led slowly and so that it can almost be like a frustration to some level, but then, you know what I'm talking about? Maybe I'm not being very clear, but I think that's one of the things that's missing in a lot of heterosexual couples. sexual relationships is that often the man sometimes has a more developed sexuality, especially in a religious context. And so a lot of women come in underdeveloped sexually. And so there's not a lot of space or curiosity or development of the woman's eroticism. And so, it sounds like she has found some things that she likes, and so if she can share those, I think they can create something together that will allow her to feel more aroused, and hopefully lead to orgasm, but we don't know. That may or may not be possible. And I mean, I would hope that's in her future, but I think even just being able to share some things, I think she could probably get to a place where she feels more connected to her partner and just more satisfied. I think that's definitely reachable goals.

Marliett:

I think another thing that this brings up for me is like, where are these sexual conversations happening for different genders, right? Like where are the conversations happening for the men that they have more comfort with this? Oh, Yeah. Where are they happening? I'm guessing they may or may not be happening in the home but for the woman, where are those happening? And also, Why, if they're not happening, why are they not happening? Because I think that a really important piece for parents to consider is that the more we talk about, teach children about their genitals, the more we talk about the body, the more knowledge and information they have. And I also have worked a lot in the area of sexual abuse like I worked with a lot of sexual abuse victims and people who have experienced that. And lots of times they don't realize what's happened to them. That's really common. People don't know what's happened to them. And so I think we should be talking about sex in church more explicitly. I think we should be talking about sex in all places more explicitly. Because people need to know what's happening so that they can identify if what's happening to them doesn't feel right or good, rather than just in their brains kind of thinking like, I don't know if what happened to me was okay or not just then, but I don't want to make a big deal out of it. Don't over react, just business as usual. So I think there's a lot of very compelling reasons for there to be more conversations about our bodies, our genitals, our experience with sex and what that was like for people. And so parents can make it a safe conversation where it's just matter of fact, a little bit more. Yes. I actually heard you guys doing this, I heard Adam doing this with your kids the other day and I was like, that's so beautiful. I could hear you talking about the scrotum and I was like, Oh, that's really beautiful that you could just have that conversation with your kids in the room and just let them be aware of and know what's happening to their body.

Rebecca:

yeah.

Marliett:

So that they're in the know, people should be in the know, people should be brought into the loop. Yeah, Sooner than later, I think which I think can be very scary again in a culture and in religion where it's off limits, there's an inherent message, even if no one is saying, I had someone say to me,"no one ever said it was bad explicitly" and I said,"sure, but maybe implicitly, there was an implication that sex is bad because it was not discussed as frequently," or, like in my home it was discussed in a way where there was fear or disgust or shame.

Rebecca:

Yeah. And I think that's the case for most people. It's either not talked about or talked about in a way that's very much don't do this. And it's not reasonable. We're all sexual beings. We were made to procreate. So we're gonna have sex because the drives are in our bodies. So information is so important for our children. And I think that's one of the things that's hard as an adult, is that Now you're an adult and you feel like you should know more, or be more experienced or more skillful, and I think the biggest thing is you're definitely not alone Like I've had clients come to me that have been married ten years, and have not had an orgasm. So very similar experiences. So you are not alone in this I definitely think the religious context does make it a little bit more difficult. I think it's a contributing factor, but even people that aren't religious can also be raised in families where it's really difficult to communicate about this. And so whether or not this woman considers it a couple problem, I think the truth is. Your partner can definitely be part of the solution, You've got some physical things going on. That's nobody's fault. It just is. But your partner I think would really want to know how to best help you, how to best please you. And I imagine that there's grief that they haven't been able to figure that out. I bet they feel some level of failure that they haven't been able to figure it out either. So, I think just giving themselves a lot of grace and space to have a beginner's mind, And try some of the things that Adam suggested. Those are pretty common suggestions. And I think if they feel so inclined, get a sex therapist, a couple sex therapists. Yeah. I think that could be very useful if they haven't already done that.

Marliett:

Yeah. And I would say read the body keeps the score because I think that trauma could be explored in more than just EMDR And how it's impacting the body, yoga and neurofeedback and somatic experiencing.

Rebecca:

Yes. There are as well. Yeah. That's a good point. There's additional therapeutic approaches that can release trauma in the body. If sex has been on some level traumatic because it's been painful. Any last words of wisdom?

Adam:

Yeah, I was going to say, if this was somebody who walked up to you in a bar or in a restaurant, and you had to get out to your car, and you had ten seconds to give the best advice you could, what would you say?

Marliett:

I'd be like, you're normal. There's nothing wrong with you. Everything happens for a reason. Nothing comes from nothing. Hey, read this book, but also read these books. Here's a few books to read. The Body Keeps the Score, Come As You Are the ACOA Trauma Syndrome by T. N. Dayton. I would say, read these books because there's more to this. What would you say, Rebecca or Adam?

Rebecca:

I think the most important thing for this couple would be to expand their definition of sex..

Marliett:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

And so, I would encourage them to try a lot of different sexual acts, it could be massage, I don't think sex has to be the same for everybody. Maybe she can never orgasm. Maybe it will always be painful for her to be touched in her genital area. But maybe she can give him a hand job and he can give her a massage and that can be very intimate for them. I know that can be hard for people to hear. Maybe sometimes like, Oh, I don't want that to be the end. But I think even just being able to find things that have your partner give to you physically, share their body with you that's what sex is to me, It's the sharing of your body and letting your partner bring you comfort and arousal. And I think it's important that each person be able to define that for themselves. So I think if they can expand that definition, that would be huge.

Adam:

I was going to say something similar, but I think I would say, actually, I think the first step would be learn to masturbate.

Marliett:

Yeah.

Adam:

And give yourself permission to do that.

Marliett:

With or without a vibrator.

Adam:

Yeah. Whether it's with a vibrator, whether it's while you're reading a romance novel, if you need visual stimuli, there are maybe some more comfortable, less offensive especially considering the conservative religious background there might be ways to to pique your interest in different ways and discover what feels arousing and find whether and how you can masturbate is probably a useful starting point.

Marliett:

Okay. I have a question for you too.

Rebecca:

Yaas.

Marliett:

This person was to say. Why does it matter if I have an orgasm? I'm doing alright. Like, I don't want to keep getting my hopes up. What I have is good enough. What would you say to them?

Adam:

I'd say if that's good enough, then that's great.

Marliett:

Cool.

Adam:

Yeah. There are women who despite lots of trying, lots of therapy, still report not being able to orgasm. despite several different techniques, despite a lot of different sex therapy approaches they still report not being able to orgasm. And it's it's not uncommon that could be the case. And there's not a lot of sexual interest which is also normal. So it's about discovering what works for the two of them, And my big question would be, what is your husband OK with? Because I would wonder if that's where a lot of the pressure is I need to have a sexual relationship with my husband. My husband's dissatisfied. I need to perform this way. That's not always the case. May not be the case here, but I would say if it's working for you, then that's great. The question is, do you really have a sense of whether this is working for your partner or not? And having not mentioned anything about the partner, that's what I wonder. You have to be able to come to a meeting of the minds of this is working for our relationship. And if the sexual arrangement you have is comfortable, even though you mentioned it's not very pleasurable, then sometimes that's okay. I would hope that you could get to a point where it's at least not miserable, that it's not painful. And that I think would be a very workable goal towards finding something that is intimate and not painful together but whatever that outcome looks like I think we need to be open to it.

Rebecca:

Yeah, just one thing you said, I guess I want to just clarify this I don't know if you meant this but I want to say this, is that I think if she's okay with not having an orgasm. It's important that her partner process if they are not okay with it. Yeah. Why they're not okay with it. Because our partners should be able to choose how they wanna experience pleasure. So if she's saying, I don't wanna keep trying for an orgasm in some way, that takes away from sex. It makes me feel pressure.

Marliett:

Yes.

Rebecca:

I think that's gonna be really important that her partner respects that. Anyway, so I just wanna have that side note that I don't think it's. Like if she's okay with not having an orgasm, but they're like, no, it's important for you to have an orgasm. I think that's something that's gonna need to be worked out, but, to answer your question, Marliett, I think the first thing I would say is you'll orgasm when your body's ready. I really think that if her body isn't orgasming, there's the chance that it can't, or there's a wisdom in her body not doing that, and it may be saying I'm not going to relax enough. I'm not going to show anybody that is part of me until I've healed other parts of me. And so I do think orgasm for women is a way that women, on some level, show their vulnerability, I mean, even physiologically it is such an interesting thing, a woman lets a man enter her, it's so different to put a piece of your body into something else, it's so different, it's so vulnerable. Like, Yeah, the physiology is so interesting in terms of that vulnerability. So I do think if your body is not doing that, it may be just because it can't but it also could be your body telling you something else needs to heal or I need more safety. Before I can really go there and I think trusting that, like not resenting the body for that, but just understanding that the body is complex and trusting that the body knows what it's doing, I think can be a really beautiful thing.

Marliett:

I think that's really important. And I think if that can apply to heterosexual couples, it also needs to apply to homosexual couples, gay, anyone in the L G B T Q I A plus category, right? all people need to have space and I actually think this, coming from an eating disorder lens, coming from a trauma lens trauma is too much, too fast, too soon. Yes. So giving ourselves space without pressure to just kind of ease into things. there's some liberation in that. Yeah. And that liberation creates safety or at least a bit more comfort, yeah. So I really appreciate that question. I think that was beautiful. Yeah. It was a great question. Yeah.

Adam:

We really discussed it, yeah.

Marliett:

We fleshed that one out.

Rebecca:

Yeah, we did.

Marliett:

So if you have any follow up questions, homegirl, let us know.

Rebecca:

Say, hey, it's me.

Marliett:

Me again.

Rebecca:

It's me again. All right.

Adam:

Join us next time for Keeping It Up With The Joneses.

Rebecca:

Thank you for listening to Keeping it Up with the Joneses. For more content, follow us on Instagram or Facebook. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please do these three things. First, subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. Second, rate and review the podcast, and third, share your favorite episode with a partner, friend, or family member. We are grateful for your support and look forward to joining you next week. Until then, keep it up. But it was funny because my high school friends like totally got the joke. Yeah. That we were like, Karen Delete.

Marliett:

Anyway.

Adam:

I do feel

Marliett:

like I'm already listening to your podcast. And there's like these stories. Yes. And it's like endearing. It makes people like you a little more. All right. Yes! Because you add humor in there.

Adam:

All right.

Rebecca:

Karen! Karen! Karen! Okay. Why don't we do A little

Adam:

recording tip. Oh. Let's try not to touch the table. Oh. I just noticed.

Marliett:

Even with my hands or? Well,

Adam:

it's fine. I mean, you can, yeah. Oh. It just. But

Rebecca:

maybe

Adam:

at some point.

Rebecca:

That

Adam:

definitely adds a lot of sound.

Rebecca:

But maybe at some point we can do a little drumming.

Adam:

Sure.

Rebecca:

Keeping it up with the Joneses. That's pretty loud. I think we overblew Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. No. No. We cannot.

Marliett:

Oh. It looks. All the lines. So maybe tapping your fingers. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Rebecca:

No, I can hear that. I can hear that. It's okay. I'm going to take my water off there, though.

Adam:

That's a good call. That's right there. Okay.

Rebecca:

Okay, well, do you want to, like, do a little welcome, Adam, and then I will introduce the questions? Does that sound good?

Adam:

Sure.

Rebecca:

Well, I just have one question. I hear a metronome. Am I supposed to be hearing a metronome? Yeah, you

Adam:

hear, you can hear the metronome. We can turn the metronome off.

Rebecca:

Yeah. Can you turn that off? Cause it's like clicking. Okay. I don't need to be rhythmic. That comes to me naturally. Okay.

People on this episode

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Adam Jones

Host
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Rebecca Lucero Jones

Host