Adam: 0:05

Welcome to Keeping It Up With The Joneses!

Rebecca: 0:09

All right. Let's move on to question number two. All right. Does that sound good? Yeah. Okay.

Adam: 0:15

Want me to read it?

Rebecca: 0:16

Yeah.

Adam: 0:17

Is it normal for men to look at pornography every day? It really bothers me even though, it does not seem to negatively impact our relationship. So I don't know if this is a woman or a man, saying this.

Rebecca: 0:27

I'm gonna guess it's a woman because they're saying for men. That makes me think maybe but also based on where I posted the survey, women's groups.

Adam: 0:36

Not a lot of male sexuality questions coming in. We'll have another male guest, I guess, for male sexuality discussion. Sorry, Marliett.

Marliett: 0:44

That's okay. I'm here for this one.

Rebecca: 0:48

Oh, well, first I want to say, this is a common question. I think a lot of women might ask that same question. Wondering, what is the normal amount of pornography consumption? What is reasonable for me to expect in a partner? so I think that's a normal question for women to have. trying to understand male sexuality.

Marliett: 1:06

Yeah. I think of JFF

Rebecca: 1:08

you might wanna say that. I don't know that.

Marliett: 1:09

The Jennifer Finlayson-Fife.

Rebecca: 1:10

Okay. I don't know that all our listeners will know who she is, but she has a podcast as well.

Marliett: 1:14

She talks about how using pornography as a way of being sexual without being knowable. Knowable. Yeah. So if someone's using pornography on a daily basis, I also think about their nervous system, because pornography is a coping skill. People are commonly using pornography because they're living in freeze or flight. So what's happening for them that their nervous system is a bit dysregulated and to then try to be knowable to someone on top of feeling like you're outside of your window of capacity is a whole other level of vulnerability, right? I've never heard JFF say that part. That's a Marliette thing. Okay. but like, how can you be knowable to someone when you feel, ashamed of being outside of your window of capacity even though they may not be able to label that, Because that person, there's like a self abandonment there. Not abandonment. It's not intentional. Actually, the nervous system is always doing everything it can to protect us.

Rebecca: 2:10

Yeah.

Marliett: 2:11

It's the most loyal friend we've ever had. But showing someone that we're outside of our window can be a very, tender and vulnerable and scary thing to do because that person think of how much how many pejorative pieces of information you have heard in your life about like being in fight, flight, or freeze or having and I especially think this happens in certain religious or spiritual contexts where people are told to not be angry or to not have certain emotions, right? So when certain emotions are skewed or eschewed did I say that word right eschewed Yeah, okay. Anyway, you get the drift. That's the one. People can feel like I feel this, but no one's supposed to know because I'm actually supposed to be, in my window of capacity. And then if my partner knows that I'm outside, then they may disagree with that. So I'm like, why is this person, why is he getting to a point where he's needing to use it every day? Like what's happening for him? where he's feeling so dysregulated. What kind of trauma is in his past that this is such a well worn neuropath way?

Rebecca: 3:15

Yeah, I think a lot of people, we don't know anything about whether this person has a religious context. They have not shared that. But I will say that I think a lot of people when they get married, expect that a partner's pornography consumption will decrease with the increase availability of possible sex between partners. So I'm wondering, I don't know this for sure, but I'm wondering if this is part of it, like maybe she walks in, she's watching her show and she walks in the bedroom and her husband's looking at porn, and the question is well, why didn't you come say, Hey, when you're done with your show, want to have sex?" So I think a lot of times we don't see that in the woman's question. This part of well, why wouldn't he ask me instead? I I see that a lot. And I've seen it in some of my research, that a lot of women understand that men have sexual needs and that pornography is a way for them to get aroused and masturbate and release the tension, but I think they are often very surprised when those behaviors continue or don't reduce. So I think that's really hard for women because I think, like you said, there's this confusion about is pornography a form of sexual expression or is it managing anxiety? And I think that's where partners can be like, I don't know what sex is for you because if sex is about being sexually satisfied, wouldn't you prefer a real person to the computer? And so then I think they're wondering, well, what is sex to my partner? But it's hard to talk about, right? I think There's been a lot of negativity about pornography viewing but then there's also kind of a shame message if you're against pornography or if you have hesitations about your partner viewing pornography. So I think it becomes really difficult to talk about. I mean, we're assuming it's a woman, but she says, it really bothers me even though it doesn't seem to negatively impact our relationship. But I would say if it's bothering her, it is. That is a negative impact, right? There's something about this that you guys have not been able to talk about, there's something about your partner's sexual expression that you don't understand or they don't let you understand. So to me, that's an indicator that they can't talk about it. And that, is The little yellow flag, Saying, hmmm, why can't they talk about this?

Marliett: 5:29

Yeah.

Adam: 5:30

Yeah, I'm wondering in terms of if it doesn't seem to negatively impact our relationship. I don't know how to read into that. I don't know if that's on her side as well. maybe she's still able to be present for sex, maybe she's not wondering about the pornography, or what he's been looking at or how often he's been masturbating or what that might mean about her. Or maybe it's not making her feel less present in her body during sex. Maybe she's still able to feel comfortable about her body and feel less comparative. A lot of women feel like they're comparing themselves to whatever their partner might look at or thinking what he might be expecting or feeling like they have to perform during sex. So there are all of these different thoughts that tend to go through a lot of women's minds. But if she's saying it doesn't impact the sexual relationship on her end, then this might change the answer, right? If it's not disrupting your ability to be sexual, if it's not disrupting your ability to be present, to feel intimate, to be able to look him in the eye during sex, or the ability to orgasm. But if it's getting in the way of any of those functions, then then I would say that's something problematic. But, it's hard. We get a little bit of information we don't know. So in that case, the question is what would be bothersome? So, I don't know. Maybe I'm toying with different hypotheticals. Maybe it's not impacting her sexual relationship, but it is bothering her in some other way.

Rebecca: 6:53

Yeah, it could be bothering her emotionally, not that it's necessarily interfering with sexual function. But people can have good sexual function and still have, I would say, sexual issues because they're more communication based. But we did want to make sure that we were accurate, so we did look up a few statistics. What we did find is that there is a difference between how much single men are using pornography and how much coupled men are using pornography.

Adam: 7:21

Can I interject a little bit? We often get caught in this idea of saying using pornography.

Rebecca: 7:26

Oh, viewing? That can often

Adam: 7:27

be yeah. Viewing pornography. Viewing pornography. There's a, maybe a shame based

Rebecca: 7:31

Oh, okay. Oh, because it sounds like using drugs. Idea in that, yeah. Okay, I hear

Adam: 7:34

that. A lot of that comes from a lot of compulsive sexual behavior treatment, i'm using this to achieve something, whereas from more of a sex positive standpoint, rather than really adding a label on to that or adding some value to it or not. Sure. It can be problematic. Yeah. I'm being nitpicky. Carry on.

Rebecca: 7:51

Yes. No, I appreciate that.

Marliett: 7:52

No, I think that's helpful.

Rebecca: 7:53

Yeah, there was a 2014 study and this took place in Canada and single men said that they averaged two hours a week. And the average use was three weekly views of 40 minutes each, and then coupled men viewed 34 minutes a week, 1. 7 weekly viewings of 20 minutes. So I wanted to share that information because I think what this woman may be experiencing is, again, that idea that I shared at the beginning is that maybe it would reduce with being coupled. And it looks like generally men that are coupled view it less. And so I'm wondering if her expectations of what that would look like when they're living together or maybe they're married. I wonder if that's pretty different from what she expected and he's viewing every day and maybe she would've expected that when they weren't sharing a household. But maybe that feels on the high end for her. Again, we're talking about averages, but maybe that's her expectation. She could have had partners that didn't view as often, so there's also that possibility, too, that it feels just more common with this partner.

Marliett: 8:55

Also, this is her question and her partner is not asking this question. In the beginning I did mention like what's happening for him that this is a daily coping skill. And I also want to add, does that feel like a problem to him? I'm curious how he feels like this impacts their sexual relationship. And I also would want this person to explore his own and her own experience. Whoever this is, their own experience with socially constructed gender norms and stereotypes.

Rebecca: 9:23

Yeah.

Marliett: 9:23

in connection with his own experience and his nervous system and her nervous system and what is typically okay for men to experience according to societal norms and okay for women to experience and to just kind of dig into that a little bit deeper to be like, it is harder for men to display sadness or fear. There are emotions that are safer for men to display. And so, if this does feel like something they want to change, then to explore what's happening with their own emotional and their own experience in their nervous system, and then to explore, how to alleviate some of that distress that might be coming with some of those pressures and norms and living outside their window.

Rebecca: 10:00

Yeah. One thing too, as you were sharing some of that, I thought about something that I think about men and women differently. And I think a lot of times I see men focus on frequency, uhhuh, and I think the statistics show that women view pornography as well, but men typically view it more, or more men view it, I guess I should say. And so I think for women, something that can happen with their partner viewing pornography is well, I guess there's two things. I think men can view a lot of erotic things that are presented to them, right? Through video formats and so maybe that's how they're satisfying that eroticism. And I think there can be shame or hesitancy about bringing that to their partner. Actually presenting fantasy. It's easier to go to PornHub and type in an idea and view it than it is to say to your partner, Hey, what if we dressed up and did this right? That's a lot harder to say to your partner because your partner may be like,"no."

Marliett: 10:58

Exactly! You're making yourself knowable.

Rebecca: 11:00

Yes. Yes. Yeah. And That can be really hard because some of the things that we want to pretend or role play in sex are taboo, And that's why they're erotic and it can be very vulnerable to share that. So sometimes I've seen that with clients where the clients actually maybe have made attempts with their partner to act out their fantasies and they feel rejected and then they never want to risk it again. And so their pornography viewing increases but there's also this piece I think that happens for women where if the partner is getting a lot of their eroticism explored through pornography viewing, then sometimes for the woman, sex can feel very boring. and so I think that can also be a part of this as well, is that there's a mutual avoidance of really figuring out and risking the discussion of fantasy. And so I think that's also why the pornography can feel threatening.

Marliett: 11:55

Yeah.

Rebecca: 11:56

So that's another piece I really see. See, any couple where pornography is complained about almost always they are not able to talk about fantasy and incorporate it into their sex life.

Marliett: 12:06

Stan Tatkin said something like, there's nothing so difficult in this world as another human being. And so I think when I hear that, what I think is, dealing with a click of a finger, a push of a button is a simpler process than negotiation and compromise and whatever issues may be getting in the way of making it to exploration, yeah. So some people might just be like, I have these sexual needs that need to be met and this is just a faster, less vulnerable, easier way to get to that.

Rebecca: 12:34

Yeah. It's a reliable way. And it's always there for you. Yeah. It's a reliable way to meet my own needs. But I think the risk of that, yes, which needs to be met. And the risk of that is that they never get to create something that's really fulfilling for the both of them. So I think that's like the opportunity cost.

Marliett: 12:54

Yeah.

Adam: 12:54

Here's what I'd actually propose. This is a little bit of a strange idea.

Marliett: 12:58

Let's hear it. I'm in.

Adam: 12:59

But I mean, obviously, one, one useful starting point would be, talk about it, right? Mention that it bothers you. There's this paradoxical element that their sexual relationship, is something that's built by the two of them. So if they can't talk about something if there's something that is bothering her, especially in regards to her husband's sexuality, that should be something that they share and discuss together. But there's also this real truth that is completely opposite, which is that she doesn't need to be validated through his sexual behavior and whether or not he watches porn isn't indicative of whether or not she's lovable or not. and in a real sense, it doesn't have to dictate their relationship. The thing is they don't have any sort of shared understanding, or it sounds like they maybe haven't wrestled with this very much with each other. And I'd say that's the obvious starting point is, they need to talk about it and go through the process of figuring out what that means to each other. But there are also some other ways you could experiment with this. And as I'm thinking,

Rebecca: 13:59

Can I jump in and say one thing? Cause I like your suggestion, but I think if she says, Hey, this bothers me." He could get really defensive. So I think a better way, or maybe some language you could use is Hey, I know you watch porn every day. I'm really curious about that. I don't do that for you. And I, yeah, I'm, yeah. Would you be willing to share with me, what's interesting about that to you and why it's so appealing every day?" To be, if she could be curious about it, it would be interesting to see if he could be able to share rather than being put on defensive. Because if she's like, it bothers me, then he's Oh no. Woman mad. Retreat. So I would say be

Adam: 14:39

curious only if you can be curious. Yes. If you're not, if you can't be curious about it, don't fake curiosity because that just makes it worse.

Rebecca: 14:47

Sure. Yeah. But I would ask her to try and really get to a place where she can be curious about it and have that conversation and then say, thanks for sharing. And then she can process that for a while before she acts on it or shares her thoughts on it, but I think she needs to At least try and get more information about it.

Marliett: 15:05

I think that's important and I think it may just be making space for lots of things to be true without assuming that he's Struggling or he's unhappy or whatever, like whether something's wrong with him, you're like, bring me into this world he's built for yourself. Help me understand what's happening.

Adam: 15:23

Yeah. My other option was, maybe a little contraindicated, but, sometimes it might be useful to try watching pornography every day in front of him. See what he does.

Marliett: 15:35

Yeah. Oh, that's interesting.

Adam: 15:37

Often times with porn, there is a real privileging of pleasure. So, for men watching porn is really easy, because they can watch porn, they can masturbate, and the whole thing can be done sometimes in less than a minute, two minutes, depending on where they're at. So sometimes it can really throw men for a loop if they walk in on her masturbating or even just watching porn. And I'd be curious to see if he could bring it up. It might be an interesting way to see what effect this seems to have on him, right? Yeah. And just

Rebecca: 16:04

say, well, you do it. And I just wanted to say. See what it was like, just try and,

Adam: 16:10

But it could do one of two things, oftentimes women will watch porn in order to get a sense of what might be pleasurable for their partner. And maybe it'll spice up your sex life. I've actually had several couples where watching porn together has been really pleasurable and they've enjoyed that. And there have been couples where it hasn't been and it can wreak a lot of havoc in the relationship if they don't agree on it, but finding a moment to watch it yourself. Be very deliberate to watch it while he's around. He doesn't have to be in the same room, but

Marliett: 16:38

this is why we shouldn't be outside of context, but if you're

Adam: 16:40

context, but if you're just sitting on the couch, if it would normally be when you would be scrolling through Instagram or something like that, then that should be the moment where you pull open some porn and

Marliett: 16:51

yeah.

Adam: 16:51

And toy with it a little bit.

Marliett: 16:53

I think that's a great idea actually, because it also takes this like fear and anxiety. That's associated with, like, why is he doing, I'm on the outside of what he's doing. And it puts her on the inside. In a really interesting way where she's I'm on the ins. What are you doing? What are you I don't know, I just saw you doing this. And then, it gives him an opportunity to, both of them an opportunity to explore how this feels or what this means for them.

Adam: 17:17

And that's why I say if this really bothers her, and she doesn't feel like she can be curious about it, Then push yourself to be comfortable. Push yourself to explore what he explores. To be uncomfortable. and that will help you get a little bit more curious. Or, in the least, maybe you try it out and it really offends you and bothers you and it pushes you to finally talk to him about it. But either way, I think it would have a useful outcome to be able to explore what impact this has on the relationship. Because right now it seems like they have no clue.

Rebecca: 17:48

Yeah, I think you're right. What

Adam: 17:49

what tolerance or openness their partner has to it. Whether their partner is aware at all of the impact that this has on them. So even though it may not be impacting their sexual relationship when they're together, maybe when it's on, it's great. But sex is everything, and not in the sense that it means everything, but in the sense that it's happening throughout the day. So when you're feeling disconnected sexually by seeing or hearing or noticing that your partner's been looking at porn, then that is your sexual relationship. And it that's something that you both have built into your routine. And if you're protecting him from that message, then it's only kicking problems further down the road.

Marliett: 18:31

I love that. I think that's a really great idea. If you can't get into the porn, Pornhub, then go for the sex books, find your brand

Rebecca: 18:40

mean like romance.

Marliett: 18:41

Yeah, like the the court of misdemeanor. I can't ever get those titles, right?

Rebecca: 18:47

Why don't you have these memorized

Marliett: 18:51

And sometimes

Adam: 18:52

for women in this situation, I'm sometimes curious what's a more fearful outcome Yes, that if I looked at porn that he would be aroused by me watching porn Or that he would be disgusted. And I think that's an important question to answer. Is it more, am I more afraid that he would see me as somebody that is a sexual being that could be interested in sex sometimes? Even any sort of sexual act outside of our sexual relationship, So sometimes it could be threatening to men, it could be that but also on the other end. if he's not bothered by it, then that tells you something about is he even aware of what impact this has, so.

Marliett: 19:30

That brings up such an interesting, by the way, it's A Court of Mist, A Court of Thorns and Roses by Sarah J. Maas, that's the series but that brings up a really interesting thought for me that I've heard Jennifer Finlayson talk about how and if I get this wrong, JFF, I'm real, real sorry but when one partner is using porn, the other partner kind of being on the defense is a kind of a way of like them policing their partner rather than seeing themselves as a sexual being as well. And so we stay kind of on the outside where we're like, I'm hurt or I'm offended or I don't like that, or I don't prefer that When really, the woman or whoever in that situation could also be exploring who am I as a sexual being? Rather than always feeling like you're on the outside when this other person's doing this or trying to police them or check on them or monitor them no, you go explore your own sexuality and learn to see what it feels like to be in your own body. And then that can become a bonding experience where people can talk about their own experience of being a sexual being.

Adam: 20:33

Yeah, because it's putting limits on who I am, I can only be sexual if you've met these certain demands. Or if you see me this way. I can only be this person, if you see me in this certain way, or if you are behaving in this certain way. And that's a common trap that a lot of couples fall into.

Marliett: 20:50

Well, and it just, I also think that brings it back to gender norms, like things that women are told they're supposed to be. Men are supposed to be like who likes sex more, who's more into it. I just think you have to like, throw all that out the window and just dig into yourself and your partner. Yeah. rather than getting caught up in all these outside, constructs or diagnoses or, suggestions for who or what you should have a problem with. Yeah. I think I love that. I think that's beautiful. Self exploration. Okay.

Adam: 21:19

Any last thoughts? 10 seconds of advice. What would you do? That would be my 10 seconds of advice. Okay. Masturbate while he's around. See what you find out.

Rebecca: 21:28

I think mine would be really try to see if you can get to a curious place. I think that could really open up the conversation if she could genuinely approach him and be curious about his experience.

Marliett: 21:37

Yeah.

Rebecca: 21:38

I realize that could be asking a lot, but that is one option in addition to your more fun experiment. Yeah. Adam. What about you, Marliett?

Marliett: 21:46

I would combine your approaches and then add compassion.

Rebecca: 21:50

Okay.

Marliett: 21:50

Because with, IFS, we always begin with curiosity and compassion, internal family systems. If we can lean into with, into everything that's happening to us and others with curiosity first, compassion will come down the road or one of the other eight C's and then rather than making a foe or creating a tension, when people, when we get to know ourselves and others, things really make sense when we understand the reasons behind why someone is doing something or why we're protecting ourselves in a certain way.

Rebecca: 22:18

Yeah. Everything makes sense in context.

Marliett: 22:21

Yeah. Nothing comes from nothing.

Rebecca: 22:22

I was also trying to think, since IFS has the eight C's, I was like, how can we make paradox start with a C? Co paradox? Cparadox? Caradox? Paradox. Co Mcparadox? No. Anyway. Anyway. It's not going to work. All right. Let's move to the last question. Okay. What do you say? Yeah. Okay. All right. How do I adjust to a sexual relationship as a 30 something newlywed? What suggestions do you have given my spouse was previously married and I have never had sex prior to our marriage? Married in the last month, two stepchildren.

Marliett: 22:56

Yeah, well, I think she might feel, I'm guessing this is a she. Yeah. She might feel like she's a bit less experienced. Just a bit. Maybe just a little bit. So like, how can she, again, be brought into the loop and Identify as a sexual being herself. Same thing we were just talking about.

Rebecca: 23:17

Yeah. I don't know if she's masturbated or what her sexual relationship with herself has been, but I think that would probably be an important place to start is just her learning her body, This is something, if she hasn't developed her own sexual relationship with her own body, yeah, she's gonna need to do that and so that would be important to give herself the space to do that. And I would hope that her partner could give her the space to do that. That doesn't mean that they can't engage sexually. I think it just means her partner recognizing that she isn't going to be where his last partner was or I would just say having some patience for the process and not pushing it too far as far as. It's what she's ready for. Yeah, I think sometimes partners can get with new partners and kind of expect to pick up where the old partnership left off. And I think every partnership, sexual relationship needs to be cultivated on its own. Yeah. If that makes sense.

Adam: 24:08

Yeah. I think it's about exploring what do we both bring to the table? What are we both creating here? Are we both making here that is going to be greater than the sum of our parts. Yeah. Our private parts. Because he's

Marliett: 24:20

had sex, but he's never had sex with her.

Adam: 24:22

Exactly. And he

Marliett: 24:23

has no idea what is coming his way. Yeah. Exactly.

Rebecca: 24:30

But, I mean, on some levels, sex with the same woman is different every time.

Marliett: 24:34

Well, I mean, that's

Rebecca: 24:35

true. That's part of being a woman. Hello!. It's a new me today.

Adam: 24:40

But what a great opportunity, for the partner that was previously married to essentially Start from scratch. Step back.

Marliett: 24:47

Yeah, beginner's mind, yeah.

Adam: 24:48

Yeah bring this idea of what is sex for us, assuming they're monogamous and only having sex with each other. Taking time to explore what their own relationship looks like and what is, what's stimulating or arousing, the things that worked in a different relationship may not work with this person. So yeah, if they haven't had sex prior to marriage, there may be two things that happen. There may be an unconscious pressure from the other partner for sex to look a certain way. And that may not be malicious or intentional in any way, but This is how sex has been for me. This is what I've experienced for sex. And so clearly the partners had sex because they have two children. So assuming that they're biological children. Sometimes if you're not very cautious stepping into this new relationship, you may need to be very explicit that this is new for me, I'm very, I'm nervous, or I'm cautious and being able to, recognize some of those concerns from the other partner can be pretty typical. And so there may be a pressure from the other partner, but then there may be a pressure for yourself to either meet their expectations or to perform or act in any certain way. And, something that's interesting about sexual relationships, a little tidbit is the sexual arousal. process lubrication and moving toward orgasm. Most of that has to do with your parasympathetic nervous system. which is surprising. We call it sexual arousal, but It's really the relaxing from arousal, right? That's what's really intriguing about sex is there's this

Rebecca: 26:17

paradox? arousal

Adam: 26:19

Simultaneously, but being able to relax and be in your body and whatever comes naturally to emerge. And so that's what makes sex so great is there's a how's this going to happen? I feel vulnerable. I feel exposed, but I'm also relaxed. And that is when wonderful things can happen with sex. so I would say the pressure that you put on yourself to perform or act in some way usually is one of the biggest factors that block people from having enjoyable sex,

Marliett: 26:50

right, you're in a blended state when you're having sex, you're in a blended state between dorsal and sympathetic but not totally outside of your window of capacity.

Rebecca: 26:58

Yeah.

Marliett: 26:59

like an exercise is a combination of safe and connected, ventral vagal and fight or flight, When we're sleeping, we're in dorsal, like towards the bottom of our window of capacity. But to have sex or to interact with someone sexually, when you're oriented towards freeze fight and flight at the same time. When you're being that vulnerable, Being with someone in a blended state can be very scary. I just

Rebecca: 27:21

want to say that now I'm thinking about smoothies and milkshakes because you said blended.

Marliett: 27:25

It is about time for ice cream. It is almost time for ice cream. I

Adam: 27:29

think about a dorsal fin for some reason. I like go to marine biology when you go there. Like a little

Rebecca: 27:35

dolphin. Well, I loved all the things you shared, Adam. And I think another thing I would say they added that They've only been married a month.

Marliett: 27:44

So my guess

Rebecca: 27:45

is that, now that she's in a sexual relationship, she's like, Oh no, I don't know what I'm doing. Like this Ah! Which makes sense. And I think that anybody who's entering a new sexual relationship feels, Oh, no, do I know what I'm doing? Am I doing this right? Am I understanding my partner? Do I know what I want? Do I even know how my body works? Is this working for me anymore? Why isn't it working?" So I think a lot of that is normal, That sex is often us trying to learn what our body is telling us and what's gonna work in this moment. She also mentioned that there's two stepchildren, and so that also is a thing they're negotiating too, right? She's now in a sexual relationship. She's also now a stepmom, And so, there's a bunch of different roles that she's walking into that can definitely impact how she shows up sexually I'm thinking about how a lot of times when couples get married and they don't have children yet, they have more time and probably energy to explore the sexual relationship. And so one thing, probably my 10 second suggestion would be really carving out time. I don't know what their schedules look like. And I know people like are like schedule sex, but seriously, sex is a skill. Sexual communication is a skill. Okay. I know we all want to think it's all spontaneous, but practice makes perfect guys. So I do think they need to carve out some time. And they don't need to prescribe what happens, but they need to have some time to explore this. So I think finding times that work in their schedule, especially because they might have kids every other day or every other weekend, but just figuring out times when they can really cultivate this part of their relationship, is going to be important to just create space for it. This is, It's a different topic, but when my first husband passed away, I was very busy as a single mom. And I remember thinking, okay, I'm going to go to therapy, even though I'm a therapist. I was like, I need to go to a therapist and I need to carve out that time to talk about this because if I don't, I will fill it. And so I think when you're a blended family, there are so many ways your attention can be pulled. And if you don't carve out the time, It won't happen. So I think creating a space around this is what's going to allow it to develop. So that would be my number one suggestion, creating the space for this to happen.

Adam: 30:05

And the space needs to be integrated between times they have children present and they don't. Because I think that can be something that happens with blended families sometimes. That's a great point. Is there can be this kind of schizophrenic relationship that when the kids are here, I'm a parent. When the kids are gone, I'm a partner. Yeah. And we don't integrate the two, which can be really frustrating, especially as people are entering a relationship to know. And if they haven't been married before, if they haven't experienced what that's like to now jump into a situation with two children, to be living together, that's really intimidating. And they might not even recognize that their partner may be changing from day to day. And so I think that helps build a consistent couple relationship because a lot of what's happening on the sexual level is going to involve what their role is as a co parent even as a step parent. So are we an integrated couple? What is our identity together? And so if their sex is just reserved for the days that the kids are gone that can turn into this game of cat and mouse that. Again if the kids are here, and if sex isn't an option on those days, then I don't know who I am. Because in some way you want the stepchildren, over time, as they get used to the new stepmom, you want them to get familiar with their parent and their stepparents couple identity. So this is a Couple. Yeah. And oftentimes I think that can really impact the couple relationship in a lot of different ways if sex is partitioned off, they never really develop a real sense of this is who we are as a couple. And this is how we parent step children together in whatever role that looks like that has to be negotiated, but a shared identity there is crucial.

Marliett: 31:47

I just, I don't know if you're cool with this, but

Rebecca: 31:50

I was thinking the same thing.

Marliett: 31:51

This has happened to you all.

Rebecca: 31:54

I was thinking, I was like, does he know? Do you know that you're talking about

Marliett: 31:57

yourself

Rebecca: 31:57

right now? You were in this position, a very similar position to this.

Adam: 32:04

I'm assuming there's maybe co parenting or the children are there sometimes and the children are gone other times. Sure. It's divorce. Yes. But

Rebecca: 32:12

I'm talking about I had a previous husband. I came with kids and yeah, I had the same question of if there was anything you wanted to share from your personal experience of how you navigated it as it's somebody, entering a marriage where somebody had a previous sexual relationship with a partner. I mean, and then kids, yeah, I just don't know if you have any words of wisdom from a personal experience, not necessarily from the therapist.

Marliett: 32:37

Yeah. Can I add onto that? Cause I think that there was an alliance between Rebecca and the kids and that like lots of times that could feel very threatening for the children to allow you to build an alliance with them. And with Rebecca. Yeah. And so for there to be an alliance connection all around, and so, I wonder how that's been for you and what you've done. Yeah, I mean

Adam: 33:00

a lot of this happened outside of the sexual relationship, but in terms of a couple identity. That's the The major challenge that anybody who is a step parent faces is automatically being on the outside. And for some couples that works, I have my Children, you have your Children and I'll parent mine, you parent yours, and we'll make it through that way, right? That doesn't always end up being very successful in certain circumstances But in this case there wasn't another co parent available, but there were a number of different hurdles that had to be overcome that might be really common to any stepparent. There was other family that we still had to integrate with. I mean, we had in laws that live in the same area that they had to get used to me and I was very different in a lot of ways and unfamiliar and I was a reminder that their son or brother had passed away. And so I think that was their own real hurdle. The different kids warmed up to me in different ways. the youngest at the time was much more resistant to accept me in a dad role, even though there were other times where she seemed to really want it and it's going to be just very confusing and back and forth. She

Marliett: 34:04

didn't like me then either, but now she really likes me.

Adam: 34:07

Yeah. Anybody that was competition for mom was, I think, was on the outside. Farting or pooping.

Rebecca: 34:12

Yeah. I mean, she was in wearing a diaper, guys. She was pooping on me. I wouldn't specify that. She was in a diaper. She was letting me know how she felt. But she put number two on you. But now she like, is obsessed with you, so. Yeah. You won her over.

Adam: 34:24

You're her best friend.

Marliett: 34:25

Time. And Aries. Aries. Yes, the Aries unite It's interesting also because you guys also had another level of challenge along with like religion and religious pressures and so it just feels like in terms of like you had been previously married to Isaac and then, yeah, the religious piece to that.

Rebecca: 34:47

Yeah.

Marliett: 34:48

So I think that there have been a lot of obstacles that you all have had to navigate and maybe obstacles is not the right language, but maybe like factors to be considered and to explore and to integrate.

Rebecca: 35:00

Yeah, when I first read this question, one of the first things I thought was, I wish this was inversed.

Marliett: 35:08

Yeah.

Rebecca: 35:09

because I do think it was an advantage for me to have been in a sexual relationship for a long time. Yeah. So that I could figure out my own body because I think as a woman and being raised in a religious context, that was pretty strict. I do feel like when Adam and I got married, I do feel like in a lot of ways, it felt more equal than had it been reversed that if he had more experience, then I feel like it would have felt like a lot of pressure. It just took a while in my first marriage for me to really know what worked for me. It took some time for me to figure that out, and so I feel like in our marriage, I've really been able to, I would say, really clearly communicate about what works for me. And obviously we have our own relationship And we figured out what we like together and what works for us, but just knowing my own body was so huge. And so I think knowing what it's like to be married without knowing your body completely, not having a lot of knowledge of your body, and then going in with a pretty good knowledge of your body. I showed up very differently. And so that's where some of our suggestions for the other people was like about masturbating and these women learning their bodies, I think is so huge. I think women are, our genitalia is internal. It's not as easy to see. There's a lot of reasons women don't know their bodies as well as a lot of men know their bodies. And so I think women giving themselves permission to do that. You can't share something you don't know. And so I think that's the really crucial piece is she can take the time for herself to learn this, or in the relationship they can create space for her to learn this in the context of the relationship. But as long as that's done, I think they'll get there and have a very beautiful, sexual relationship, but they have to create the space for it to grow.

Marliett: 37:03

Yeah. It is interesting, because this happened in a lot of ways to you all.

Rebecca: 37:07

Yeah, it's quite similar.

Marliett: 37:08

Adam is a dude. He's a man. I just want to

Rebecca: 37:12

say, he's, we our daughter said he is the manliest man in the town. So, that is also his claim to fame, I guess.

Marliett: 37:21

So, that's, I mean, that's just interesting considering, like, how men are socialized. Their level of comfort with sex. Yeah. Or communication around sex for you as a man, and what you brought into the marriage in terms of your own comfort and exploration Versus what a woman and we're generalizing here a little bit, like every human is different. Yes. All genders are gonna have a different experience based on their own experience as a human, but that is interesting.

Adam: 37:48

Yeah, it is interesting I had a sibling that also married somebody that had children Around the same time as I did and so I was you know and thinking in terms of suggestions or Advice, the two of us had very different experiences, but we both married somebody that had children and one was a product of divorce, while the other was was the result of death, but and the children were older for my sister but they were younger in our relationship. And there were so many things that were very different and we just had wildly different differing experiences. And in terms of suggestions, I always try to be really careful because I suggested to my sister, I said, it might be good to, to hang back for a while and don't jump in and try to discipline them right away, just, maybe let him handle the discipline, their dad, and you just focus on building a relationship." But that was probably the worst advice possible, and I didn't find that out until a year or two later, that that really ended up undermining her as a person, and so I think those are the advice can be really tricky because it really depends on the different types of situations. Whereas for me I didn't even really follow my own advice there. I kind of stepped in and I felt like we were pretty equal parents. I mean, I don't know that I was quite the disciplinarian right away. I think we worked really together in a lot of different ways and had to figure out our own way of doing some of those things, but I wasn't afraid of jumping in and having a relationship with them. And so I think, advice is a tricky word because it really is dependent on the situation.

Rebecca: 39:23

Well, I want to jump in and say this, because I think with your sister too, I think when kids are older, it is hard. I think she could have disciplined, she could have not disciplined, and the kids just, they just had adjustment period, right? And so, I do think sometimes it's also hard to say that anything, is really going to make it go smoothly. Like, when you're blending families research shows it's seven years for those families to finally Stabilize. Yeah. You're at six. Yeah. We're at year six.

Marliett: 39:57

Happy anniversary last week.

Rebecca: 39:58

Oh whoop. Killing

Marliett: 40:00

it. One more year and you'll be stable. And I was thinking, I hope this

Adam: 40:05

episode drops before this person's been married a year. They've been married one month. But I know I'm not going to lie. I like felt

Rebecca: 40:12

like a pressure, like maybe we need to release this one first. Like she needs this now. If I could give

Marliett: 40:18

her 10 seconds of advice. 10 seconds. I would say patience, my love. I would say just lean into things with curiosity and compassion And I think communication is a big piece of that and exploring things, bringing one another into things. And then when it feels like you're not being received or your bids for connection are not being received, then exploring that. And I'm always a fan of therapy, clearly we do what we do. So I would say exploring it in a therapeutic setting, both individually and as a couple, and maybe even as a family could be very helpful.

Rebecca: 40:49

Yeah, that's a great point. I think when I met Adam, I was still going to therapy after Isaac's death and yeah, I was like, how about you come in for some sessions, right? Because I do think some of these things can be easier to talk about with somebody else. It's helping you kind of get underneath the surface where you might not be able to get enough traction on your own, but it helps you to build a little bit more confidence in yourself and yeah, settle on some answers that are going to work for you. And I think they can have a really beautiful future.

Marliett: 41:19

Yeah. Build a community where you can talk about these things and where it's safe. Don't try to do everything on your own and figure things out on your own.

Rebecca: 41:26

Yeah.

Marliett: 41:27

In isolation Shame breeds. Shame breeds in isolation.

Rebecca: 41:31

Yes.

Marliett: 41:31

I was, like, going Yoda on you just then. Yes,

Rebecca: 41:35

I was like,

Marliett: 41:35

Yoda?

Rebecca: 41:35

In isolation, shame breeds. Baby Yoda? No, I'm just kidding. Do

Adam: 41:41

you have ten seconds of advice?

Rebecca: 41:42

I think I already said mine, didn't I?

Adam: 41:44

Maybe.

Rebecca: 41:44

I think you did. I thought I already said that. Okay, here's mine. Yeah. You

Marliett: 41:47

did.

Rebecca: 41:47

Whoa.

Adam: 41:48

Walk around either naked or in your underwear.

Marliett: 41:50

Oh my gosh. These were the answers we never knew we needed.

Adam: 41:53

You gotta stake your claim in the house. Like I said, that's a great way to to be vulnerable in front of the new children. And maybe you decide based on their age, but get a sense of, they need to be comfortable with you as a human

Marliett: 42:06

rather

Adam: 42:06

than you on the outside. Walking around naked or in your underwear is a great way of saying no. This is my house. These are my rules. This is how I'm gonna do it. Now, you don't need to do it all the time, but do it just once or twice. And don't try to cover up. just be yourself. And walk around. Walk around and just get a sense of no, but I think maybe I should have done it, you know I think it would have I said my advice isn't always great so take it with a grain of salt, but I think there's a grain of truth in there that stick your claim and don't hesitate To let yourself be seen early on, it'll scar your children, but in some way it might really humanize you. The stepchildren might really humanize you in some way, so.

Marliett: 42:50

Maybe not naked. No, I'm thinking like, oh no, my shirt's in the

Rebecca: 42:55

dryer, I'm just in my bra and my panties, let me just walk out and do that. Yeah, that's a very it's your house thing to do.

Adam: 43:02

Honestly, I think there are, I mean, I don't know who these stepchildren are, right? If they're young, we don't know how old they are. If they're young, young children, they see their parents naked a lot. Sure. Yeah. and I think it can be healthy to be, okay, this is a human body, It teaches them about anatomy. It can maybe even be bonding in some way. Okay, yeah. To see their parent naked. Yeah. If they're a little older, I'm thinking of maybe these stepchildren or teenagers, right? Sometimes there are these weird sexual fantasies that they have about the new stepparent that comes in.

Marliett: 43:32

I just think we need to clarify like Wait, what? Where are you going with this

Adam: 43:35

strange sexual dynamic. A lot of I've heard a lot of people tell me that they would fantasize sexually about sex with their stepmom.

Marliett: 43:43

I do think that's true. Because it's

Adam: 43:44

almost this new maternal figure. They're not sure how they feel about their relationship. And they're like, what's this body they have? There's this tension between how close they want to be intimately involved and intimately connected in some way. Sure. I'm not saying sexually, but Right. But I say one way you could jump the gun there is rather than build the tension, let the tension build, just make it so they've seen your body once or twice, and that way the mystery is gone.

Marliett: 44:11

They're like, that's what their, that's what their stomach looks like.

Adam: 44:14

And you can just, and then you can start to build a real relationship with'em. You don't have to.

Marliett: 44:18

I do think normalizing that all bodies are good, no matter what they look like, no matter what shape, size, color they are, is really important for children, and I think creating a situation can do that, like that can do that, and helping them to see that you are a human with a body. Is important. I think clearly this should exclude any form of abuse in any way, right?

Adam: 44:40

Yeah.

Marliett: 44:40

Like not promoting or perpetuating that, but I do think that normalizing the body and letting, like letting people see that the body is good and has space. We have space for the body at all sizes, shapes, colors, textures.

Adam: 44:54

Exactly.

Marliett: 44:54

Textures. Interesting.

Rebecca: 44:57

I hope you don't get us sued, ah ha.. Ha Ha. Ha ha ha ha.

Adam: 45:01

We'll find out. That's in the follow up episode.

Marliett: 45:04

Yeah. Well, that's why I say yes, at the, I know. Yeah. clearly

Rebecca: 45:07

exclude the abuse. I've been sitting here with my hands covering my face as Adam suggested. Yeah. And if

Marliett: 45:13

someone's uncomfortable, then you can that can become a conversation. But maybe check in on, Yeah. That with your partner first and see what they think. Yeah. Make that communication. But I, yeah, you better

Rebecca: 45:22

talk about it with your partner first. Yeah. Yeah. Cause well, and you also need to know the other parent in the situation because

Adam: 45:30

that

Rebecca: 45:30

other parent might call CPS on you depending on. You

Adam: 45:33

bring your partner close. You say, here's the plan. Tomorrow morning, I'm going to walk around. Okay. No.

Marliett: 45:39

Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Well, I do think checking into what's been normal in the past is important too. Like, how have bodies been treated or normalized or looked at in the past? And looking at people's own internalized fat phobia or externally, like they're experiencing bodies.

Rebecca: 45:55

Yes.

Marliett: 45:55

And I think sexualization. I

Rebecca: 45:56

think here's the question with step parents too, is how are you changing your behavior because you are a step parent? Meaning like you said, when kids are little, parents often bring their kids in the shower and just bathe them quickly with them. Kids walk in on you, you're changing you still just keep getting changed. So, I think it's more of, like, When

Adam: 46:16

they're potty training, you pee and poop in front of them all the time?

Rebecca: 46:19

Yeah. So, like, all of that. So I think it's a matter of, when you say walk around naked or in underwear or whatever, I think part of it is Like you said, like making your stake in the household, like saying I live here, it's my house, I'm not going to act different, like I am going to be like your mom, I am going to be like your dad, I'm a parent in this household and I'm not going to tiptoe around you or treat you differently or so I think it is good for parents to

Marliett: 46:44

There's space for my body in this house.

Rebecca: 46:46

Yes. Yes.

Marliett: 46:47

And it creates a sense, like looking at this sense of felt safety in a human being's body and their nervous system. But

Adam: 46:54

I think you come around to my idea.

Rebecca: 46:56

Not. Well, I think parading around, someone else's comfort. Yeah. I think you need to be careful. I mean, you can't just be parading around naked or in underwear all the time. I do think sometimes there are individuals and families who do things like that, who are the one that's Apparently my clothes are never in my room. And sometimes it does feel like there are people that can kind of abuse that a little bit. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Put on some clothes. So for those

Marliett: 47:18

outliers that are gonna abuse that, don't do it. Like the Stop it therapy. Just stop it.

Rebecca: 47:24

Oh, yes. Yeah. What is it? Bob Newhart.

Marliett: 47:27

Yeah. Just stop it.. SNL.

Rebecca: 47:29

Stop it. I'm gonna put you in a box. Stop. Stop it.

Marliett: 47:31

I'm bury you in a box. That's what it's, yeah, I think. I think, yeah. Yeah. Essentially think outside the box and create a sense of felt safety.

Adam: 47:39

Yeah.

Rebecca: 47:39

Wow. What a

Marliett: 47:40

I'm not sure

Rebecca: 47:41

I understand. Siri's

Marliett: 47:42

got something to

Adam: 47:43

tell us. Oh.

Rebecca: 47:44

That's how I felt about that suggestion! Actually,

Adam: 47:47

I think that was the person calling back in and,

Rebecca: 47:49

That was her husband. He's what? That's the suggestion you gave her? I don't know if I understand. How does that help our sex? I'm not sure

Marliett: 47:55

I understand. I know, I was like, and this is where we end?

Adam: 47:59

That's the perfect note to end on.

Marliett: 48:00

Okay. Well, this was a good time. Yeah,

Adam: 48:02

Marleah, thank you for joining us.

Marliett: 48:04

Yeah.

Adam: 48:05

Wonderful advice. Loved hearing your thoughts and your insights. It was awesome. About dorsal fins. I love hearing your insights, both of you. What? I said about dorsal fins. Dorsal.

Marliett: 48:14

Oh, dear. All right, well, a good time was had by all. Let's do this again and

Adam: 48:22

Yes, we'd love to have you on a future episode. Hold up, wait. Come back. I

Marliett: 48:26

gotta tell her one thing. Don't just say that and not do that because We would. The male

Adam: 48:29

sexuality episode. I would love your insight on the male sexuality episode. We didn't really get into much here about

Rebecca: 48:35

Well, we need to get more questions from men. Oh, I'm so curious. Yeah. Men need to have more questions. Yeah. If they're not asking questions, then they're not self aware enough. Okay, but I wanted to say one thing, Marliett, because you just said,"and a good time was had by all." Yeah. Okay, I remember when you used to say that. Yeah. Like when we lived near each other. Yeah. And I need to tell you, almost every time after I have sex, That's what I think. I think after sex, I'm like, and a good time was had by all. Oh, that's amazing. So we've come full circle. That's amazing. I really do think that's exactly the thought that enters my mind. I've said it a few times. Do

Marliett: 49:10

you ever remember me saying

Rebecca: 49:11

that?

Adam: 49:11

I think so. Yeah, I've heard you say

Marliett: 49:12

that. That's a phrase that comes from this woman who lived around the block from me when I was growing up and in the Spanish Fork City Press. At the end of every article she would write every week, she would report on all the things happening in the neighborhood and the parties and gatherings, she'd say, and a good time was had by all. It's very Yoda ish. Thanks, V. Meekum. We will never forget you. You live in our memories. Yeah, she's infiltrated my bedroom.

Rebecca: 49:37

Who knew? Who knew? What's her name? V. Meekum. V. Meekum?

Marliett: 49:42

Yeah, V. Meekum. Mika.

Rebecca: 49:44

Oh, V. Mika. Okay. All right. Thanks, V.

Marliett: 49:47

Yeah, her granddaughter. We were very good friends when

Rebecca: 49:53

All right,

Marliett: 49:54

thanks y'all.

Adam: 49:55

Oh, that was very Texan. Join us next time for Keeping It Up With The Joneses. Oh, stop.

Rebecca: 50:11

Thank you for listening to Keeping it Up with the Joneses. For more content, follow us on Instagram or Facebook. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please do these three things. First, subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. Second, rate and review the podcast, and third, share your favorite episode with a partner, friend, or family member. We are grateful for your support and look forward to joining you next week. Until then, keep it up.

Adam: 52:32

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