{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":116.473,"endTime":120.561,"body":"I'm Judith, and this is the Starline"},{"startTime":116.473,"endTime":120.561,"body":"Equine Bodywork podcast."},{"startTime":120.769,"endTime":123.647,"body":"This is a podcast about all of the things"},{"startTime":120.769,"endTime":123.647,"body":"that I've learned"},{"startTime":123.647,"endTime":126.65,"body":"and continue to learn in my career"},{"startTime":123.647,"endTime":126.65,"body":"with horses."},{"startTime":126.859,"endTime":129.82,"body":"For the better part of a decade,"},{"startTime":126.859,"endTime":129.82,"body":"I've been a full time equine"},{"startTime":129.82,"endTime":132.906,"body":"bodywork"},{"startTime":129.82,"endTime":132.906,"body":"practitioner, educator, and author."},{"startTime":133.24,"endTime":138.787,"body":"My obsession how horses really work"},{"startTime":133.24,"endTime":138.787,"body":"and how to get the most"},{"startTime":138.912,"endTime":142.124,"body":"from our relationship"},{"startTime":138.912,"endTime":142.124,"body":"with them in training and in sport."},{"startTime":142.708,"endTime":146.044,"body":"My passion"},{"startTime":142.708,"endTime":146.044,"body":"helping horse owners and body workers"},{"startTime":146.044,"endTime":149.089,"body":"and aspiring body workers get going."},{"startTime":149.381,"endTime":154.219,"body":"Unpack the latest science,"},{"startTime":149.381,"endTime":154.219,"body":"research and experiences behind what we do"},{"startTime":154.219,"endTime":157.89,"body":"with horses to support their potential"},{"startTime":154.219,"endTime":157.89,"body":"and optimize"},{"startTime":157.89,"endTime":160.893,"body":"their performance."},{"startTime":161.977,"endTime":162.936,"body":"The phrase"},{"startTime":162.936,"endTime":167.816,"body":"fascia remembers trauma is often used in"},{"startTime":162.936,"endTime":167.816,"body":"alternative medicine,"},{"startTime":168.108,"endTime":173.363,"body":"bodywork, somatic therapy,"},{"startTime":168.108,"endTime":173.363,"body":"and it's digested the body's facial tissue"},{"startTime":173.363,"endTime":177.868,"body":"or that connective tissue network"},{"startTime":173.363,"endTime":177.868,"body":"that surrounds muscles and organs"},{"startTime":177.868,"endTime":182.33100000000002,"body":"and bones"},{"startTime":177.868,"endTime":182.33100000000002,"body":"can store emotional or physical trauma,"},{"startTime":182.539,"endTime":185.542,"body":"impacting health and movement."},{"startTime":185.626,"endTime":188.128,"body":"Oh my goodness, that statement."},{"startTime":188.128,"endTime":192.925,"body":"Does it ever make me want to explore"},{"startTime":188.128,"endTime":192.925,"body":"the scientific arguments"},{"startTime":193.05,"endTime":196.303,"body":"for and against this idea"},{"startTime":196.595,"endTime":199.598,"body":"grounded in current evidence?"},{"startTime":199.848,"endTime":204.937,"body":"So as I prepared for this episode,"},{"startTime":199.848,"endTime":204.937,"body":"that's exactly what I did."},{"startTime":205.26999999999998,"endTime":210.15,"body":"I came up with arguments"},{"startTime":205.26999999999998,"endTime":210.15,"body":"that support facial remembering trauma"},{"startTime":210.317,"endTime":214.78,"body":"and ones that go against that notion."},{"startTime":214.947,"endTime":217.95,"body":"And I'm going to present"},{"startTime":214.947,"endTime":217.95,"body":"all of them to you here today."},{"startTime":218.075,"endTime":223.038,"body":"And then I want you to let me know"},{"startTime":218.075,"endTime":223.038,"body":"what your thoughts on this topic are."},{"startTime":224.289,"endTime":225.582,"body":"So fascia"},{"startTime":225.582,"endTime":229.503,"body":"has mechanics sensitive properties."},{"startTime":229.878,"endTime":234.549,"body":"And because of that"},{"startTime":229.878,"endTime":234.549,"body":"we can make an argument that supports"},{"startTime":234.96699999999998,"endTime":238.637,"body":"the fact that fascia remembers trauma."},{"startTime":239.263,"endTime":244.226,"body":"Now fascia is a dynamic tissue"},{"startTime":239.263,"endTime":244.226,"body":"that responds to mechanical stress,"},{"startTime":244.226,"endTime":247.813,"body":"including trauma, by remodeling itself."},{"startTime":248.14600000000002,"endTime":252.985,"body":"Physical or emotional stress"},{"startTime":248.14600000000002,"endTime":252.985,"body":"may alter facial tissue,"},{"startTime":253.06799999999998,"endTime":258.407,"body":"which could lead to restrictions,"},{"startTime":253.06799999999998,"endTime":258.407,"body":"or tension that store."},{"startTime":258.407,"endTime":262.369,"body":"I use the term in quotation marks"},{"startTime":258.407,"endTime":262.369,"body":"the effects of trauma."},{"startTime":262.703,"endTime":267.624,"body":"So some evidence for that would be"},{"startTime":262.703,"endTime":267.624,"body":"that fashion contains mechanical receptors"},{"startTime":267.624,"endTime":271.211,"body":"like Golgi tendon organs"},{"startTime":267.624,"endTime":271.211,"body":"or Ruffini endings"},{"startTime":271.461,"endTime":277.759,"body":"that respond to pressure and to stretch,"},{"startTime":271.461,"endTime":277.759,"body":"which influences tissue remodeling."},{"startTime":277.759,"endTime":283.14,"body":"So chronic stress or injury can cause"},{"startTime":277.759,"endTime":283.14,"body":"collagen fibers in fascia to shorten"},{"startTime":283.348,"endTime":288.228,"body":"or densify,"},{"startTime":283.348,"endTime":288.228,"body":"creating adhesions or scar tissue."},{"startTime":288.562,"endTime":294.151,"body":"Now, studies show that facial tissue"},{"startTime":288.562,"endTime":294.151,"body":"can become stiffer under chronic stress,"},{"startTime":294.526,"endTime":299.031,"body":"potentially due"},{"startTime":294.526,"endTime":299.031,"body":"to altered fibroblast activity"},{"startTime":299.239,"endTime":302.242,"body":"in the actual facial tissue."},{"startTime":302.576,"endTime":305.537,"body":"This could be interpreted as the tissue"},{"startTime":305.537,"endTime":308.874,"body":"holding the effects of trauma."},{"startTime":309.416,"endTime":313.879,"body":"Now, myofascial release therapies"},{"startTime":309.416,"endTime":313.879,"body":"like Rolfing or bone work"},{"startTime":314.087,"endTime":318.592,"body":"have shown to have benefits"},{"startTime":314.087,"endTime":318.592,"body":"in reducing pain and improving mobility"},{"startTime":318.592,"endTime":323.805,"body":"in patients with chronic pain,"},{"startTime":318.592,"endTime":323.805,"body":"suggesting that addressing"},{"startTime":323.805,"endTime":328.435,"body":"fascial restrictions"},{"startTime":323.805,"endTime":328.435,"body":"may release stored tension."},{"startTime":328.769,"endTime":332.939,"body":"So the interpretation of that for people,"},{"startTime":328.769,"endTime":332.939,"body":"for proponents"},{"startTime":332.939,"endTime":336.318,"body":"that argue that these changes"},{"startTime":332.939,"endTime":336.318,"body":"in facial structure"},{"startTime":336.318,"endTime":342.532,"body":"reflect a memory, again in quotation"},{"startTime":336.318,"endTime":342.532,"body":"marks of trauma, as the tissue adapts"},{"startTime":342.532,"endTime":345.911,"body":"to physical or emotional stressors in ways"},{"startTime":345.911,"endTime":349.915,"body":"that, persist over time."},{"startTime":350.207,"endTime":353.21,"body":"So that argument, I guess, can be made."},{"startTime":353.335,"endTime":357.88100000000003,"body":"Now, another argument"},{"startTime":353.335,"endTime":357.88100000000003,"body":"to suggest that fascia can store trauma"},{"startTime":357.88100000000003,"endTime":364.012,"body":"is that there is a somatic connec ction"},{"startTime":357.88100000000003,"endTime":364.012,"body":"to emotions."},{"startTime":364.346,"endTime":368.85,"body":"So the claim being that emotional trauma"},{"startTime":364.346,"endTime":368.85,"body":"can manifest"},{"startTime":368.934,"endTime":374.231,"body":"physically in the body, including that"},{"startTime":368.934,"endTime":374.231,"body":"facial tissue due to the interplay"},{"startTime":374.231,"endTime":377.234,"body":"between the nervous system"},{"startTime":374.231,"endTime":377.234,"body":"and the connective tissue."},{"startTime":377.984,"endTime":381.113,"body":"It can be evidenced"},{"startTime":377.984,"endTime":381.113,"body":"by the poly vagal theory,"},{"startTime":381.19599999999997,"endTime":384.78299999999996,"body":"which suggests"},{"startTime":381.19599999999997,"endTime":384.78299999999996,"body":"that emotional trauma activates"},{"startTime":384.78299999999996,"endTime":388.62,"body":"that autonomic nervous system"},{"startTime":384.78299999999996,"endTime":388.62,"body":"and leads to muscle tension."},{"startTime":388.703,"endTime":393.291,"body":"Altered posture,"},{"startTime":388.703,"endTime":393.291,"body":"which of course affects facial tension."},{"startTime":393.667,"endTime":397.04499999999996,"body":"Fascia"},{"startTime":393.667,"endTime":397.04499999999996,"body":"as a connective tissue is influenced"},{"startTime":397.12899999999996,"endTime":400.132,"body":"by those changes."},{"startTime":400.799,"endTime":404.51099999999997,"body":"So studies on psychosomatic disorders"},{"startTime":404.51099999999997,"endTime":407.722,"body":"show that chronic stress or trauma"},{"startTime":407.764,"endTime":411.05899999999997,"body":"can actually lead to physical symptoms"},{"startTime":411.30899999999997,"endTime":417.10699999999997,"body":"like tension in muscles or pain,"},{"startTime":411.30899999999997,"endTime":417.10699999999997,"body":"which is potentially mediated"},{"startTime":417.19,"endTime":420.527,"body":"by changes in the fascia itself."},{"startTime":421.06899999999996,"endTime":425.574,"body":"Bodywork practices"},{"startTime":421.06899999999996,"endTime":425.574,"body":"such as well, say, cranial sacral therapy,"},{"startTime":425.657,"endTime":429.327,"body":"report anecdotal improvements"},{"startTime":425.657,"endTime":429.327,"body":"in emotional well-being"},{"startTime":429.61899999999997,"endTime":432.372,"body":"after facial manipulation"},{"startTime":432.372,"endTime":435.33299999999997,"body":"through through control"},{"startTime":435.33299999999997,"endTime":438.336,"body":"studies from the Up Ledger Institute."},{"startTime":438.962,"endTime":443.383,"body":"This is one of those places"},{"startTime":438.962,"endTime":443.383,"body":"who does, cranial sacral therapy."},{"startTime":443.467,"endTime":449.097,"body":"So they have done through"},{"startTime":443.467,"endTime":449.097,"body":"controlled studies, proof of this."},{"startTime":450.14,"endTime":450.974,"body":"Now, people who"},{"startTime":450.974,"endTime":456.313,"body":"advocate and claim that fascia is a part"},{"startTime":450.974,"endTime":456.313,"body":"of that body's interconnected system"},{"startTime":456.313,"endTime":460.275,"body":"and may encode emotional trauma"},{"startTime":456.313,"endTime":460.275,"body":"through physical changes."},{"startTime":460.817,"endTime":463.82,"body":"So these changes"},{"startTime":463.82,"endTime":467.657,"body":"can be addressed through manual therapies,"},{"startTime":467.90799999999996,"endTime":471.286,"body":"kind of backs up that thought process."},{"startTime":472.329,"endTime":477.167,"body":"Now a third reason"},{"startTime":472.329,"endTime":477.167,"body":"we could claim that fascia can store"},{"startTime":477.167,"endTime":480.921,"body":"trauma is because there are nerve"},{"startTime":480.921,"endTime":484.966,"body":"endings"},{"startTime":480.921,"endTime":484.966,"body":"that may interact with the nervous system"},{"startTime":485.217,"endTime":488.71999999999997,"body":"to store trauma related signals."},{"startTime":488.71999999999997,"endTime":493.058,"body":"So fascia is innervated by sensory nerves,"},{"startTime":488.71999999999997,"endTime":493.058,"body":"including nociceptors."},{"startTime":493.26599999999996,"endTime":496.311,"body":"Or are pre pain detectors in our body."},{"startTime":496.811,"endTime":499.356,"body":"And stress"},{"startTime":499.356,"endTime":503.86,"body":"and chronic activation of these nerves"},{"startTime":499.356,"endTime":503.86,"body":"due to trauma"},{"startTime":504.31899999999996,"endTime":508.615,"body":"could lead to a sensitized facial tissue."},{"startTime":508.865,"endTime":511.32599999999996,"body":"Animal studies have been done."},{"startTime":511.32599999999996,"endTime":514.412,"body":"And they do show"},{"startTime":511.32599999999996,"endTime":514.412,"body":"that stress induced changes"},{"startTime":514.7040000000001,"endTime":519.501,"body":"in connective tissue can persist,"},{"startTime":514.7040000000001,"endTime":519.501,"body":"potentially due"},{"startTime":519.501,"endTime":524.089,"body":"to these neuro inflammatory responses"},{"startTime":519.501,"endTime":524.089,"body":"and findings."},{"startTime":524.089,"endTime":528.552,"body":"Do support the idea"},{"startTime":524.089,"endTime":528.552,"body":"that fascia could play a role in retaining"},{"startTime":528.802,"endTime":532.556,"body":"the physiological effects"},{"startTime":528.802,"endTime":532.556,"body":"of emotional trauma,"},{"startTime":532.639,"endTime":535.85,"body":"as well as physical trauma,"},{"startTime":532.639,"endTime":535.85,"body":"acting as a bridge between"},{"startTime":535.85,"endTime":539.437,"body":"that emotional and physical experience."},{"startTime":540.772,"endTime":543.6080000000001,"body":"But there are a lot of arguments"},{"startTime":543.6080000000001,"endTime":547.487,"body":"against fascia remembering trauma."},{"startTime":548.78,"endTime":552.284,"body":"Let's start with the fact"},{"startTime":548.78,"endTime":552.284,"body":"that there's a lack of direct evidence"},{"startTime":552.325,"endTime":556.0790000000001,"body":"for fascia having memory storage."},{"startTime":556.371,"endTime":559.583,"body":"There's no actual scientific evidence"},{"startTime":556.371,"endTime":559.583,"body":"that fashion itself"},{"startTime":559.583,"endTime":564.379,"body":"has the capacity to remember,"},{"startTime":559.583,"endTime":564.379,"body":"and I use that term in quotation marks."},{"startTime":564.379,"endTime":567.3820000000001,"body":"Also, trauma in a way,"},{"startTime":567.3820000000001,"endTime":571.011,"body":"that is distinct maybe from other tissues"},{"startTime":567.3820000000001,"endTime":571.011,"body":"in the nervous system."},{"startTime":571.011,"endTime":575.765,"body":"So memory as an understood scientific"},{"startTime":576.099,"endTime":579.686,"body":"thing is a function of the brain,"},{"startTime":576.099,"endTime":579.686,"body":"which involves"},{"startTime":579.686,"endTime":583.315,"body":"neurons, networks and synaptic plasticity."},{"startTime":583.398,"endTime":588.32,"body":"And no studies are able to demonstrate"},{"startTime":583.398,"endTime":588.32,"body":"that Fascia has the mechanisms"},{"startTime":588.32,"endTime":593.575,"body":"for storing these specific memories"},{"startTime":588.32,"endTime":593.575,"body":"or emotions"},{"startTime":593.783,"endTime":596.7860000000001,"body":"while it can undergo structural change."},{"startTime":597.037,"endTime":601.249,"body":"Because it's collagen"},{"startTime":597.037,"endTime":601.249,"body":"is I'm talking about things like fibrosis"},{"startTime":601.374,"endTime":602.792,"body":"due to injuries."},{"startTime":602.792,"endTime":609.1320000000001,"body":"These are more biomechanical responses"},{"startTime":602.792,"endTime":609.1320000000001,"body":"and not evidence of quote unquote memory"},{"startTime":610.258,"endTime":613.428,"body":"claims"},{"startTime":610.258,"endTime":613.428,"body":"that actually stores and muscle trauma"},{"startTime":613.6370000000001,"endTime":618.141,"body":"rely on anecdotal reports"},{"startTime":613.6370000000001,"endTime":618.141,"body":"from bodywork practitioners"},{"startTime":618.141,"endTime":623.688,"body":"and kind of lack that rigorous,"},{"startTime":618.141,"endTime":623.688,"body":"experimental, valid radiation."},{"startTime":624.105,"endTime":628.818,"body":"So there's no grounding in empirical data."},{"startTime":629.861,"endTime":634.324,"body":"Another reason"},{"startTime":629.861,"endTime":634.324,"body":"why we could argue against facial holding"},{"startTime":634.324,"endTime":639.287,"body":"trauma is essentially just an overemphasis"},{"startTime":634.324,"endTime":639.287,"body":"on fascist rule."},{"startTime":640.163,"endTime":644.0,"body":"To begin with,"},{"startTime":640.163,"endTime":644.0,"body":"the effects attributed to fascia"},{"startTime":644.0,"endTime":647.6709999999999,"body":"are more likely due to the nervous system"},{"startTime":644.0,"endTime":647.6709999999999,"body":"or other tissues,"},{"startTime":648.004,"endTime":652.55,"body":"and not specific to fascia"},{"startTime":648.004,"endTime":652.55,"body":"as a connective tissue."},{"startTime":652.8009999999999,"endTime":656.93,"body":"The nervous system, particularly the brain"},{"startTime":652.8009999999999,"endTime":656.93,"body":"and the spinal cord, is basically"},{"startTime":656.93,"endTime":662.602,"body":"the primary mediator of trauma responses,"},{"startTime":656.93,"endTime":662.602,"body":"including emotional and physical effects"},{"startTime":662.811,"endTime":666.648,"body":"and changes in posture"},{"startTime":662.811,"endTime":666.648,"body":"or tension are more directly tied"},{"startTime":666.648,"endTime":670.485,"body":"to a neuromuscular pattern"},{"startTime":666.648,"endTime":670.485,"body":"than our facial memory."},{"startTime":671.1519999999999,"endTime":673.4879999999999,"body":"Studies on chronic pain have"},{"startTime":673.4879999999999,"endTime":678.034,"body":"shown that, central sensitization"},{"startTime":673.4879999999999,"endTime":678.034,"body":"or an altered brain"},{"startTime":678.034,"endTime":681.955,"body":"processing plays"},{"startTime":678.034,"endTime":681.955,"body":"a larger role than peripheral tissue."},{"startTime":682.163,"endTime":685.667,"body":"Tissue changes in maintaining"},{"startTime":682.163,"endTime":685.667,"body":"pain after trauma."},{"startTime":686.0,"endTime":691.715,"body":"So facial changes like it happens"},{"startTime":686.0,"endTime":691.715,"body":"are common across many tissues,"},{"startTime":691.715,"endTime":696.4689999999999,"body":"skin and muscles,"},{"startTime":691.715,"endTime":696.4689999999999,"body":"and not unique to fascia itself,"},{"startTime":696.4689999999999,"endTime":700.64,"body":"which undermines"},{"startTime":696.4689999999999,"endTime":700.64,"body":"the claim of its special role."},{"startTime":700.8489999999999,"endTime":702.684,"body":"Special in quotation marks."},{"startTime":702.684,"endTime":705.437,"body":"Again, there's limited evidence"},{"startTime":705.437,"endTime":708.732,"body":"for therapy claims"},{"startTime":709.023,"endTime":713.403,"body":"about the role of trauma and fascia."},{"startTime":713.6949999999999,"endTime":717.699,"body":"The benefits of facial therapies"},{"startTime":713.6949999999999,"endTime":717.699,"body":"are not well supported"},{"startTime":718.241,"endTime":723.079,"body":"by studies"},{"startTime":718.241,"endTime":723.079,"body":"that can actually make any proof"},{"startTime":723.079,"endTime":726.1659999999999,"body":"of the claim of stored trauma,"},{"startTime":726.1659999999999,"endTime":729.169,"body":"and everything is merely specular. Dev."},{"startTime":729.169,"endTime":732.255,"body":"Systematic reviews of myofascial release,"},{"startTime":732.505,"endTime":738.052,"body":"and similar therapies"},{"startTime":732.505,"endTime":738.052,"body":"show mixed results with small effect"},{"startTime":738.052,"endTime":743.85,"body":"sizes and methodological"},{"startTime":738.052,"endTime":743.85,"body":"methodological flaws in many studies."},{"startTime":744.058,"endTime":747.061,"body":"I feel like I'm going to get some hate"},{"startTime":744.058,"endTime":747.061,"body":"in my DMs saying it,"},{"startTime":747.187,"endTime":752.15,"body":"but placebo effects are real in human"},{"startTime":747.187,"endTime":752.15,"body":"studies,"},{"startTime":752.358,"endTime":758.156,"body":"and patient expectations"},{"startTime":752.358,"endTime":758.156,"body":"likely contribute to reported benefits"},{"startTime":758.156,"endTime":761.284,"body":"of some forms of body work, as"},{"startTime":761.284,"endTime":764.496,"body":"can be seen"},{"startTime":761.284,"endTime":764.496,"body":"in studies of manual therapies."},{"startTime":765.955,"endTime":766.331,"body":"And there"},{"startTime":766.331,"endTime":770.21,"body":"are no controlled studies"},{"startTime":766.331,"endTime":770.21,"body":"that directly link facial"},{"startTime":770.21,"endTime":773.963,"body":"manipulation"},{"startTime":770.21,"endTime":773.963,"body":"to the release of emotional trauma"},{"startTime":774.672,"endTime":777.842,"body":"and most evidence is anecdotal"},{"startTime":777.842,"endTime":782.055,"body":"or based on practitioner"},{"startTime":777.842,"endTime":782.055,"body":"observations alone."},{"startTime":783.681,"endTime":785.225,"body":"So the idea that fascia"},{"startTime":785.225,"endTime":790.23,"body":"remembers trauma sits at the intersection"},{"startTime":785.225,"endTime":790.23,"body":"of biomechanics,"},{"startTime":790.438,"endTime":793.566,"body":"neuroscience, and psychology."},{"startTime":793.775,"endTime":798.9879999999999,"body":"Proponents point to fascist responsiveness"},{"startTime":793.775,"endTime":798.9879999999999,"body":"to stress, its neural connections,"},{"startTime":799.28,"endTime":802.909,"body":"and anecdotal therapeutic outcomes"},{"startTime":799.28,"endTime":802.909,"body":"to argue"},{"startTime":802.909,"endTime":807.413,"body":"that it can retain effects of trauma"},{"startTime":802.909,"endTime":807.413,"body":"in a physical form."},{"startTime":807.705,"endTime":811.251,"body":"But critics counter these effects"},{"startTime":811.751,"endTime":815.4209999999999,"body":"and say it's better"},{"startTime":811.751,"endTime":815.4209999999999,"body":"explained by the nervous system"},{"startTime":815.4209999999999,"endTime":820.343,"body":"that fascia lacks the capacity for memory,"},{"startTime":815.4209999999999,"endTime":820.343,"body":"and the therapeutic claims"},{"startTime":820.552,"endTime":823.555,"body":"lack rigorous evidence."},{"startTime":824.597,"endTime":828.101,"body":"So there's a lot to be said for,"},{"startTime":828.101,"endTime":831.104,"body":"and there's a lot to be said against."},{"startTime":831.104,"endTime":835.692,"body":"But the effects attributed to fascia, in"},{"startTime":831.104,"endTime":835.692,"body":"my opinion,"},{"startTime":835.692,"endTime":839.821,"body":"are likely part of a broader"},{"startTime":835.692,"endTime":839.821,"body":"physiological response"},{"startTime":839.821,"endTime":844.8679999999999,"body":"involving the nervous system,"},{"startTime":839.821,"endTime":844.8679999999999,"body":"the muscles and other tissues fascias."},{"startTime":844.8679999999999,"endTime":846.119,"body":"Role in health."},{"startTime":846.119,"endTime":851.6659999999999,"body":"The study of it is still very ongoing,"},{"startTime":846.119,"endTime":851.6659999999999,"body":"and future studies are needed"},{"startTime":851.6659999999999,"endTime":854.669,"body":"to actually clarify its contributions"},{"startTime":854.669,"endTime":857.8389999999999,"body":"to chronic pain, stress and trauma."},{"startTime":858.256,"endTime":861.259,"body":"Well, that's my conclusion,"},{"startTime":858.256,"endTime":861.259,"body":"but what do you guys think?"},{"startTime":861.384,"endTime":862.76,"body":"Message me on Instagram."},{"startTime":862.76,"endTime":864.971,"body":"I'd love to hear your thoughts."}]}