Journeys in parenting: Rose Chang's Perspective on Letting Go and Holding On

Have you ever felt the tug-of-war between nurturing your child's independence and the instinct to take the reins? Our friend, Rose Chang, scientist, entrepreneur, and mother, joins us to share her riveting journey through the intricate maze of modern parenting. Together, we peel back the layers of laughter, tears, and the invaluable lessons learned along the way.

Having just navigated the college application process with her high school senior, we discuss the tightrope walk of supporting our children's educational endeavors without succumbing to the obsession of online grade tracking or imposing our own collegiate aspirations. Our candid conversation reveals the emotional rollercoaster of ensuring our kids are prepared for adulthood, while still allowing them room to stumble, learn, and grow.

Wrapping up, we consider the subtle influences of our own upbringings on our parenting styles and confront the societal pressures to define success for our children. Rose's stories of balancing the demands of raising a teenager with the responsibilities of a clinical research consultancy during a pandemic will resonate with anyone juggling multiple roles. Whether your kiddos are 2, 12, or 17, this episode will build your thinking!

Be sure to listen on Apple Podcasts/Spotify OR watch on YouTube! While you're there, LIKE, FOLLOW, SUBSCRIBE and SHARE with your networks!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

You're listening to Dumpster Diving with Janice and Jane and we have a special guest today. I'm going to let Janice introduce her, since I am brand new to to Miss Rose, so I would love to be introduced and let's chat. This is great. I love it.

Speaker 2: 0:19

I'm going to take issue right out of the gate, because before we came on to this recording, jane was saying to Rose listen, it's very informal, right? This is really casual. We don't even know what questions we're going to ask, and I want the world to know that I have a sticky note with questions on it. My, you know how sometimes when you were growing up, maybe you had an imaginary friend. I have an imaginary producer for our show. I haven't asked him yet, but he's here and he's here. He provided this sticky note of questions for me this morning. So we're good, we're totally legit.

Speaker 1: 0:52

I want to be clear. I need to insert myself here real quick as as co, co owner, producer, co host, whatever the show, I don't think. I don't think this was run by me, this imaginary producer.

Speaker 2: 1:08

I don't think that's how it works. I think they just show up and you deal. That's how that goes.

Speaker 1: 1:14

Anyway, we can fight.

Speaker 2: 1:15

We can fight offline, but everybody meet my dear, dear friend, rose Chang. Rose is, rose is just an incredible person and, like a lot of us, she's a mom and she's also a scientist and she runs her own business. It's no big deal, like it's just. You know, it's whatever. She's struggling, all the big things, it's not a big deal. But, rose, we are so excited to have you and so thrilled that you're joining us and and I'm going to break, I'm going to tell everybody our topic. But but we made you, we made you pause before we came on to recording because you were saying some really amazing thing that the world needs to hear. So if you would go ahead and pick up, right there.

Speaker 3: 1:55

I'm just telling everyone on the audience right now that I'm very starstruck right now because I listen to the podcast every week and now I feel like I'm meeting like two superstars oh that is so big.

Speaker 3: 2:10

Yeah, it's great to just finally. Just you know when, when I listen to your podcast there's I talk to myself sometimes because I answer questions that you ask your guests, and you know I listen to you guys every Saturday when I clean the house and the kitchen and it's just the best time to listen. And you know I have favorites the Halloween was my favorite one Story about the clothes that we're like, yes, the crap out of her.

Speaker 2: 2:44

She and I chatted back to that. She was like that's good, the crap out of me being well. By the way, you saying your star truck is starstruck is just as funny the second time as it was the first time.

Speaker 1: 2:52

So right now.

Speaker 2: 2:54

I often wonder about, like, who are the five people who seem to always listen to us? And now we know who one of them is, so we're going to chip away at this. We're going to have a list, jane, at some point, of all those people.

Speaker 1: 3:04

Yeah, love it.

Speaker 2: 3:05

But it also makes me feel guilty because, you know, over the last month we've had a little bit of a lull because of some things that have been happening in our lives. I'm like, oh damn, we let Rose down, man, there wasn't a new episode, so we got to be better.

Speaker 1: 3:16

We're going to be better. You are the new episode. That's how we're making up for it.

Speaker 2: 3:19

That's right, exactly, we're breaking in our biggest listener and best fan. I love it. I love it, yeah. So, rose, tell everybody a little bit about yourself. Anything that you feel like would be great for our listeners to know as we think about this. Sorry, I'm going to change it.

Speaker 1: 3:35

I'm going to be quick with you too, because, rose, you'll know exactly where I'm going with this in a second, and I think it'll be a treasure for you too, because you do listen to every episode. So I want to share a quick story. Oh, okay. So last week, last weekend, I took a train down to San Diego, rented a U-Haul, spent the night at my sister Janice's house, grabbed the U-Haul Sunday morning, picked up the couches. She gifted me two couches and I brought them home. It was a fiasco getting them into the home and all those things. And because she gave me such a gracious gift me and my daughters, her nieces I'm going to bring it back around town and gift you the picture that Uncle Bruce was talking about with Grandma. Oh, okay.

Speaker 1: 4:23

And it came in real quick, and look what I found.

Speaker 3: 4:28

Oh my gosh, that's so cool.

Speaker 1: 4:32

Wow, isn't that cool. But guess what? I added this to our drive and now you have all these pictures to look at oh my gosh, that's amazing, janice. I found the file and I decided to upload it to our drive so you can see all the pictures that I have access to. Wow, this is our grandma. Look at her fancy pants. She's got these.

Speaker 2: 4:57

I'm going to show you one of my favorites and for everybody on YouTube.

Speaker 1: 5:01

this is one of my favorite pictures.

Speaker 2: 5:03

Oh, look at that. Wow, isn't it cool with the light. Wow, it's so sexy. Look at our grandma. I was going to say that's like the older version of the like, like the Boudoir pictures, yeah, yeah this is like you can get.

Speaker 1: 5:18

Yeah, I think she was born in 1910. So this had to have been, like you know, late 20s. You know, maybe I don't know, wow, seeing that she may be 18, 19, 20. So, and then?

Speaker 2: 5:34

Every woman needs a picture of herself like that Right, right, anyway, this is our dad.

Speaker 3: 5:41

Yeah, yeah, you know so I just Some of these I've seen, yeah, some of these.

Speaker 1: 5:45

I've seen from her or from Dylan. Yeah, but there's some cute, there's some cute candid ones in here where you know she's standing on a on the countertop. Oh, with Kim, this is. Kim oh my gosh and they're just putting stuff away Like the coolest little picture. So my gift to you for the couches. I uploaded it to you and Joe and the kids Look at it later.

Speaker 2: 6:07

So I love it. You know we're we're building up our so, so we don't have a lot of pictures of the family around the house, but going up our steps there's what Joe likes to call the wall of shame, and it's a baby picture of each of our six kids in the front.

Speaker 2: 6:23

And then the wall to the right of it is empty and we're starting to we're going to add, like you know, now we have grand babies and we're going to start to add, and so Joe's going to build me like those little like ledge shelves. You know so because it, rather than hanging a bunch of pictures on the wall right, I can move them around, and I'm definitely going to be putting one of those of her up there because it's just so special. Thank you for that.

Speaker 1: 6:44

Yes, you're welcome. Okay, Rose, but I knew that you would like that too, because I know you listen to the kids.

Speaker 3: 6:51

Yeah, I love all those pictures. This is watching history, you know exactly.

Speaker 2: 6:58

All right, so tell us who is Rose exactly. Oh my God, I don't know.

Speaker 3: 7:03

Is this going to be? You might want to. Basically I, you know, as my kids call me, I'm an old person, but you know I'm in my early twenties. No, I'm kidding. So I am a mom of two. One is currently a senior in high school and one is 10 years old.

Speaker 3: 7:28

And you know, I have my loving husband and I live in San Diego and basically I have my own business and, like you said earlier, I I a scientist by trade and you know, and my business I actually consult with, helping companies go and bring their drug out of market. So you know, when that whole, when, when that whole COVID vaccine was coming out, that was basically it put my industry in the limelight. No one knew what clinical research was in the, you know, before COVID, and now everyone kind of knows a little bit about it. But that's, I'm in the trenches of getting drugs out and I worked it by helping that out. So just not COVID vaccines, but everything oncologies, you know, cancer drugs, like all these other mental, you know, like CNS drugs, and then also anti-infective drugs. So that was just the whole ballpark of me, I guess.

Speaker 2: 8:35

It's such a great. I mean, I really appreciate you sharing that with us in detail, because you know we almost always, when we introduce ourselves, we introduce ourselves as moms first, right, and yet, and because that's such an important role that we play in the world, and yet we also do these other really amazing things and I so I love you sharing just a little bit about the company that you run, which you know. This isn't a side hustle, right? But, folks, just for the record, this isn't a side hustle, this is like a full blown major business and it's just incredibly impressive and I'm always inspired by you. It's especially on that front. So thank you for sharing that, because we're about to talk about the mom side for the next 50 minutes or so, and but I won't, I don't want people to lose sight of, like, all the things that we talk about the next 50 minutes or so are in the context of, by the way, running your own business and trying to do all the things right. So it's not like you just focus on this thing, right, exactly, exactly, so. So so the reason we asked Rose to join us today was actually quite specific, because Rose is a former neighbor of mine and we have this close knit group of five of us who all lived, you know, next door to each other until a couple of us moved away, and, by the way, I mean like five miles away, not that far. So we're great friends. But, but, rose, we were.

Speaker 2: 9:55

We were together recently and chatting about the fact that her daughter is a senior this year, and Jane and I have both, you know, separated kids through senior year and through the college process. But what I loved about Rose's story is that it's her first time, right, her very first time. And there's so many parents out there who this is going to be relatable for because they too have just navigated this for the first time. Or maybe your kids are junior my youngest is a junior and you're going to be navigating this, you know, kind of from this point forward through senior year etc, and so and so.

Speaker 2: 10:26

But Rose was offering a little bit of what I'm going to call progressive take on how she navigated this process with her daughter, maddie, this year, and so I'm hoping for Rose that we can start with. I want you to start with like your first kind of recounting or memory of like the moment you realize, oh wow, we're in this process now, like we're starting this process. Was it when you visited the first school in junior year? Was it like at what point? And then I want you to talk a little bit about like how you started right when, what were your instincts out of the gate, and then we're going to talk about kind of the transformation. So let's, let's hear a little bit about that.

Speaker 3: 11:02

Yeah, so well, growing up I did kind of everything on my own right and then when I when I decided I you know to have kids, I said, well, I'm definitely going to take a totally different stance on that and be involved as much as possible and I didn't realize that sometimes it could really hurt your child a little bit. So growing up, maddie was always more of the. I don't want to say that she always followed everything that I told her to do. She never spoke out, she was very quiet and she'll say, okay, I'll do whatever you want to do. So the first part of your question of when did you start that whole process and I have to be honest here it started when she was in seventh grade.

Speaker 2: 11:56

Oh wow, oh my God.

Speaker 3: 11:57

Yeah, that far back, because I always envisioned a child that would exceed in everything that she would do and I wanted her to right. And you know, when she said she was interested in joining Science Olympiad, I was so happy because of the fact that, oh, that's my background and I could do this, and so they needed coaches for that club, and so I took it upon myself to be that parent, to be involved in everything that she wanted. I was room parent from the kindergarten years and I volunteered and I did all this. I was I headed committees, part of the school, and so you know, my parents never did that growing up, and so that's where I felt that I needed to change that whole aspect.

Speaker 3: 12:54

But seventh grade, she wanted to do Science Olympiad and I was telling her exactly which clubs to join. She needed to be in gate. She needed to do this, she needed to do that. I wanted her to be involved in everything that will make her college applications exceed, above all other things that I wasn't given the opportunity to. So you know she continued on with that. I helped her through that process. I asked her to go ahead and join many clubs as much as possible, and she did it. She followed exactly what I wanted her to do and then when she entered unfortunately, you know, the pandemic hit around eighth grade. So everything stopped then and I think that was kind of when she had her aha moment.

Speaker 3: 13:52

She had some time to think she had some time to slow down in life All the activities that we were doing. It took a pause.

Speaker 1: 14:04

They keep screeching halt and I mean, it came to a screeching halt? Oh, it did, she was so involved. I mean I'm just thinking about her psyche, like I'm so busy and all these things, and now you have nothing Like how do? I open my mind Like what the heck?

Speaker 3: 14:21

Exactly, and it was hard and so even then I tried to push everything by doing online courses and camps and just to keep them involved and, you know, socialize. You know, back then the friends that she had were all part of academics and clubs and so it was hard for her to kind of connect with people starting then, because it's probably like all the other kids, they couldn't really, you know. That was, I really think, the turning point of who she hung out with and then what she was interested in, and then just not being involved in so much. And I have to say that it was actually nice because I wasn't running around doing everything.

Speaker 1: 15:22

You're like holy crap, this is amazing.

Speaker 3: 15:26

So, I did talk to a couple of my friends and they all agreed the mom this was actually a break for us. But you know, when she went into yeah, when she went into high school, and I have no idea why she did this, but she front loaded everything. And when I say front loaded everything, she took the most challenging classes, or she signed up for the most challenging classes that that maybe she shouldn't have signed up for. We're talking about AP biology.

Speaker 3: 16:00

AP math where she was taking, and it was she did. She ended up not going. She took on that. We selected to do the online classes or remote classes and then when Poway went to half I believe they went half half the year on site, but we decided to go continue remote learning. And so that AP biology I still remember that time where she was having a hard time, yeah, and you know, and I just I felt like I kind of I didn't know what to do for her and at one point her grades were falling.

Speaker 3: 16:52

And then she's always been that student who was always straight A, always. And so you know, after one of her tests, I go up to her room, I knock and she was kind of laying down. I go, shouldn't you be in your class right now? And she kind of opened it up to me and said I didn't do well, I think I failed that. And she did. So that was another point where I was just like, okay, I have to take things into my own hands. The teachers are challenged. Right now she can't cry out for help. And me, being a biologist, you know, I ended up reviewing and reading her biology books, her chapters that she was going to actually go through, you know, for the next round. I would read it and you know it brought back memories of my college years and I was just like how the heck did I major in this?

Speaker 2: 17:59

Like what in the world?

Speaker 3: 18:02

Sales and DNA and I'm just like this is crazy.

Speaker 2: 18:08

So let me, I'm going to pause you for one time because I want to acknowledge something really quickly and that I don't but I don't want to throw off your trajectory either. But, like I you know, I'm thinking about everybody listening to this and I'm thinking about how lucky Maddie was and Emily, your younger daughter, right, was to have and I think I'm sure it's true of all of our kids to have us during the pandemic. And I'm thinking about all those families who didn't have that right. They didn't have parents who could do what you did. They didn't have parents for a lot of reasons, not just because, like, maybe they don't have the background to be able to do it effectively, but also because you know they're trying to just like scrape by enough to like make sure everybody has dinner every day.

Speaker 2: 18:46

And I just you know we hear a lot of the news about the gaps that grew during the pandemic, and this is such a perfect example because you know, in some families, if you had the resources, you could have your kids at these camps online and this, that the other. But for a lot of kids it really was. They did the remote learning and that was it right, and then they were maybe taking care of their siblings or they were helping. You know, figure out ways to work in order to help. So I just you're saying, all this just makes me think, wow, what a huge divide, right, the pandemic really really highlighted because of that.

Speaker 2: 19:22

So anyway I just wanted to acknowledge that for the folks out there who are listening, thinking gosh, I wish I could have done that for my kid right, or I wish I could have been there, but keep going. You're like now trying to pre-study all her work for her, to help her bridge her learning.

Speaker 3: 19:36

Yeah, her learning, and so what I would do from that information is I would test her on it. I would basically test her on it and you know there were certain subjects. Part of that biology chapter is that she wasn't getting and I was getting frustrated. So you know, I would, I would get, I wouldn't be happy with her and she would. She would start to get that like that anxiousness from me, right, because I felt like she needs to keep her grades up, she needs to go into you know, yeah, well, I mean her.

Speaker 1: 20:17

And if you look at it from her point of view, you know she's she's done everything in her wheel, wheelhouse and will power to make mom proud and now she's in a moment where she can't like she. I don't think she mentally. She sounded depressed, you know, and so you know that depression kicked in. She's not doing as well. She doesn't want. You know, she talked to you, which is great, and that tells me that you have a healthy relationship with her, to where she does feel comfortable to talk to you about these things. But at the same time, you're like I'm getting mad at you because you don't understand this or you're not getting it.

Speaker 1: 20:49

So what a, what a freaking you know pot, a stew pot, full of different emotions and and everything you know and it, and we all navigated through that, whether we were good at it, bad at it. We all navigated through that for ourselves and our children. So it's such a huge thing to pause on and go. Let's look at the behaviors, you know. Let's look at those parts too. So, yeah, it's great, right right, right.

Speaker 3: 21:16

And so you know, we continued on this whole year, me reviewing this, me testing her, and if there was a part of of the subject she didn't understand, she would definitely come up to me. But you know, that's where the frustration also started.

Speaker 1: 21:36

I'm not a teacher you know, I can think about it in my brain here, but I can't articulate to how old was she back then?

Speaker 3: 21:45

maybe a 15 year old.

Speaker 2: 21:47

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 21:48

You know you get frustrated, like why can't you get this? And then obviously I couldn't help her with her advanced math because I'm just I'm here at the low level.

Speaker 1: 21:59

Oh, so you're a low level math biologist. Okay.

Speaker 3: 22:06

You're plus two is okay. Percentages got me so you know I so you know, and so that continued on. And then you know, I was still thinking how should I keep her involved?

Speaker 2: 22:22

Oh, my God.

Speaker 3: 22:22

I'm like that was my whole mind frame, because we're in high school now. You're a good, it's better.

Speaker 2: 22:28

Right.

Speaker 3: 22:29

So you know, and then, and then, basically her sophomore year, you know, they went back to school and this was a time where I was constantly checking up on her grades. Oh wow, you know, I just don't know if that's such a healthy thing to have online portal. You know, it really really, really messes with your mental as a parent. If you're that parent, which I was, what I say was now.

Speaker 1: 23:07

It reminds me of like a weight loss journey, like every day you step on the scale and you're like damn it.

Speaker 2: 23:11

Like what am I doing yesterday?

Speaker 1: 23:14

And so you're looking at her grades and you're like did you even go to class yesterday? Come on, you know, or whatever. It's so funny.

Speaker 2: 23:20

And I tell parents all the time it is a red flag If you know their grades before they do right test today and you know the grade when they walk in the door and they haven't even looked, that's a red flag right, because you're owning it right More than you're letting them own it. So emphasizing your was part of that rose, but keep going.

Speaker 2: 23:40

I have a feeling there are people right. I feel like there are people in two camps right now. There are people who are listening, who are going oh my God, maybe I'm the worst parent ever because I never did any of those things and they're not and there are probably people who think that's exactly what I've been doing.

Speaker 3: 23:53

Yeah, no, and I would check up on their grades. And yes, janice, I was that parent. He knew exactly what their grade was before she even knew. So when I see and I have to say this, when I see an 89% on our math test, I go what's going on here? Are you okay? Wow?

Speaker 2: 24:21

No no.

Speaker 3: 24:23

She was like Mom, don't worry about it, it's a quiz, my grades will increase. So this whole time I'm thinking she has to apply to Yale, she has to apply to Harvard, I want her to apply to Stanford, I want her to be that type of child. Yeah, and I was monitoring every single quiz and at one point there was a zero in one of her assignments and I actually called her on it and I go what is going on? She goes Mom, she hasn't had a chance to look at our assignments yet. Yeah, and I continued on her junior year. And, mind you, on top of this, I have a full-time job, and full-time, when I mean full-time, we're talking about I have my own business. So I'm not an employee, I'm over. I have many clients. At one point I had seven clients that I was trying to navigate my hours. I was working 12-hour days.

Speaker 1: 25:36

I was trying to deal with this.

Speaker 3: 25:40

And then Steve is very helpful. He does all the household things that we need to be done in the house, so it's not like I was trying to deal with that as well. We're great partners is what I'm trying to say. He has that and I have this. He's completely different from how I was doing things with Maddie. He's more off-hands, right.

Speaker 1: 26:11

Well, let's be real about it. You do enough for both of you, Not to mention. Let's really read a little bit. You were a first responder to COVID. Don't tell me you weren't busy during COVID. I think that that was probably one of the busiest times for you.

Speaker 3: 26:28

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:29

Now you're micromanaging your kids on their grades and everything else. What did that do to you?

Speaker 3: 26:36

It was. I think I had a couple of breakdown moments. I never I have a very high threshold of pain when I say pain, not physical pain more like a stress level.

Speaker 3: 26:53

Yeah, I'm able to adjust and sometimes I actually surprise myself that I don't break down more often. Yeah, really, I don't know. Maybe that's something I can work on, but my first inkling was my daughter needing to go to a school that I never had the chance to go to. It's all more of a and I try to analyze myself. But, going back to Steve, it was sometimes the point of our contention is that I was too involved with her educational journey I guess what you call it on top of all the other things too.

Speaker 3: 27:45

So that continued on her junior year. You follow her grades like crazy and her telling me and explaining to me why an 89% showed up on a report card or something. But towards her junior year, I think this was a breaking point in the trust that I was going through. It was not healthy and I was told that many times by my husband and it's hard for me to let go and I don't know why. Maybe because I wanted the bragging rights as a parent to show that my child is exceeding in this and doing all this. I wanted her to be involved in golf and that was the first time, because my husband is so good at golf that we have resource and I knew maybe that will be a way for her to get into an Ivy League school.

Speaker 3: 28:55

Yeah, she didn't want to do it. And what a bummer. She had a good swing, but she just didn't want to do it. And so, yeah, she was involved and by junior year, I was telling her you need to be involved in this, all this, all this and I gave her and she would not do it, and so that would be frustrating on my part and I was telling Janice during that time we went out for dinner that I was a spring break of junior year Was probably a change of our relationship, or her growing up and speaking up, speaking up before spring break.

Speaker 3: 29:47

I was laying out, you know, I was hearing all this. All the parents were going on college tours and I go, we need to do this, we need to go to all the colleges that I think you should apply to. And since we're in California and we want to go visit our cousin, that trip was primarily to visit our cousin, but my intentions were different. I wanted her to visit some of these colleges. That that I think that would make me a proud mom, you know. And I laid out, since we were going up to the Bay Area, I said, here we go, we'll go visit Stanford and we'll go visit Berkeley. And I got to say this whole high school years. She always wanted to go to Berkeley and I said, well, this is great, right? Yeah, yeah, we can go visit Berkeley and Stanford. And I told her I have a time set up for us, we, I set up the whole itinerary, we go. And we rented an Airbnb and we drive up there. We shrugged our 10 or nine year old and daughter along with us on her spring break.

Speaker 1: 31:02

Oh God.

Speaker 3: 31:04

You know for Maddie, yeah, so I thought yeah. So we go check in and you know, and usually I feel like our place that we rent kind of will set the tone of this trip, and we checked into our Airbnb and it was probably the worst oh no, ever stayed at and I thought, oh, this is going to be a different feel. Right, that's the tone already. We're talking about, I think, the ghosts in there. Oh yeah, foundation, there's a tree, there's a street that goes under the house, type thing.

Speaker 3: 31:49

So, that might be another story, another time, another Halloween story. Yeah, Another Halloween story. You know we're talking about a crib and I hope you don't hear babies crying in the house. Oh God, yeah, that type of. So basically we wake up the next morning, we drive to Stanford and I don't know if you guys know the area pretty well, but from Berkeley to Stanford is probably maybe 30 to 40 miles. I can't remember now, but it took us a two full hours to get there.

Speaker 1: 32:26

Oh no, You're going up the five and all of that stuff.

Speaker 3: 32:29

Yeah, the traffic, yeah, and the whole time, you know, I was trying to make it a happy journey and my husband was getting very grouchy because of traffic, you know, and towards probably the last I think maybe 15 minutes, we were stuck in traffic. He's like why are we doing this? He finally asked us why are we doing this? And I don't hear anything from behind me. She's behind me, matt the senior. She's like he's like Maddie, are you sure you want to go to this school? And so it came out. It came out. She's like I don't want to apply to this school. And so I was just like oh my gosh, we're in this traffic for an hour and 30 minutes. And he goes Rose, why aren't we even going here? She doesn't even want to apply to this school.

Speaker 3: 33:34

And so that's when I get frazzled, is when we start to get into arguments in a car where I can't walk away, and then my daughter's telling him I'm going to apply here You're the enemy, so yes, Three of us just like, oh my gosh.

Speaker 2: 33:56

And we'll go. What do we do?

Speaker 3: 34:00

She doesn't want to apply here, but I want her to go. And I go well, you know what?

Speaker 1: 34:05

Let go.

Speaker 3: 34:06

Just keep your minds open. We go there, we park, pay about $20 for parking because we want to go on this carage tour. And while I'm parking, they get out of the car and they go wait there. They're all talking. By the way, I don't think my 10 year old or nine year old at that time is involved in that discussion is just, you know, my husband and Maddie. And so I'm parking, I'm paying for the parking, I come back and he's like Rose, she doesn't even want to apply, she doesn't want to go on this tour. Why are we here? And I get really angry. I said then let's go the F home.

Speaker 2: 34:51

You can say that I don't think I've ever heard Rose say it. Go say it, now Say it.

Speaker 3: 34:59

My kids. I go, let's go the fuck home. Then I was just like go to the car, they're talking out there and they come in and I was just livid. I was so angry that I wanted we drove two hours, two hours to.

Speaker 1: 35:21

Stanford Just do the freaking tour. Who cares? Didn't even do that.

Speaker 3: 35:26

I said that she just refused, maddie just refused and of course Steve is like let's go then. And I was pissed off because I thought I put in all this work for you. You don't appreciate it. And then this whole mommy thing came out. Like I do so much for you guys.

Speaker 1: 35:49

Right, oh, here we go, the gaslighting of the children. How dare you? Yes, I think we've all been.

Speaker 3: 35:57

It was terrible, believe me, they could feel my devil horns coming out, just the fire coming out in the car. It was a heated moment in there, but when I say heated, it was pure silence. Driving two hours back to Berkeley, no. That's all they know. I'm mad the radio goes off.

Speaker 3: 36:25

The radio was off. It was pure silence the whole two hours. We were going back and then we go back to the Airbnb. We were supposed to visit our cousin but unfortunately, my cousin at the time, but literally a day before, said I have COVID. Oh no, no, we didn't even go visit her. Anyways, that whole day was supposed to be for Stanford. The next day was supposed to be for Berkeley.

Speaker 3: 37:00

So we enter the house in and she goes to her room and this is where I had that discussion with her. I go into her room, I go Basically I've never had a conversation like this with her before and I said everything that I do, that I do is for you. And she basically finally opened up and she's like I don't want to apply there. And you assumed that I wanted to apply there. And every time I told you I don't want to go to Stanford, you pushed it on me and she's like everything that you have asked me to do since then, in the past, I've agreed to this, but basically you need to let me do what I need to do. And we have a rule between me and my husband is that when we're disciplining, only one does it.

Speaker 3: 38:14

So I can't jump in when he's disciplining the kids, even though I really want to, or vice versa and this is the first time he's actually jumped in, oh wow, Disciplining. And he said she told you many times, Rose, that she did not want to apply to Stanford, but yet you're forcing this on her. You need to let her go and let her do what she needs to do. And then that's when I started breaking down. That was one of my breakdown moments that my children never see, and I started to cry. I basically started to cry and I said I'm done. I am done doing everything for you. I am done. Checking up on grades, I go. You are on your own, I go. If you want to go visit colleges, you go, do it. And that's where Steve stepped in. He's like I will take you.

Speaker 3: 39:16

I said because I'm out.

Speaker 1: 39:19

I know I'm like, yeah, I'm out.

Speaker 3: 39:23

He's like I'll take you because he knew this is.

Speaker 3: 39:27

he never saw me this way, yeah, yeah, he's super emotional, he never seen me emotional like this to my kids in front of my kids, and I said I'm done, you are on your own, done. So I think she kind of felt it obviously or I couldn't read her at that time because she's always been quiet and so that was the turning point of this whole college journey and I said I am never doing anything for you again, and from there I have not. When she studied for the ACTs, mind you, they do have to take their SATs or ACTs beforehand and I did ask her do you need to, actually do you need to take classes for those? And she said no, she refused to take classes to increase whatever. I'm great she did. So I backed off and I said, ok, so that was the hardest part, was just backing off and forcing her to take these classes to increase her test scores.

Speaker 3: 40:54

So from there, I didn't even know what colleges she applied to, she did everything on her own. I asked her if she needs to take some classes over the summer. I wanted her to take your classes, janice, but we actually traveled a lot so we couldn't do it. But she didn't want to and I said OK, how do I walk her through this journey without doing everything for her. I would ask her do you need help or assistance on me? She did everything on her own, so let me.

Speaker 2: 41:36

I want to stop you right there for a second, because you had this big blow up right. Yeah, spring Break of Virginia year, where you got into that really hyper-emotional phase, is to state that every single one of us can relate to 100%, and in that moment it was I'm never doing anything for you again. But what you're talking about now is not the anger coming through anymore. That was the point at which you put that on the table. It almost sounds like an ultimatum, like I'm never going to do anything again if you're going to do anything.

Speaker 2: 42:09

But now it's transition right Now it sounds like. So what did you learn from that moment? Because it sounds like you learned some things that made it kind of go well, I got to step back. What did you learn from that?

Speaker 3: 42:19

Yeah, ok, so I have to say that I'm not a professional. I don't want to tell every one of your listeners that you need to do what I'm doing. It's just coming from my own experience, and children are different, right, I think my second one will be different, so she's going to need a little bit of coaching. But, maddie, I've helped her through this process or I helped her but this was a moment where I learned that if I don't back off now, we're talking about that millisecond in that room, the worst Airbnb place that I stayed in. It would have ruined our relationship. There we go. I think she would just not open those doors of communication with me anymore.

Speaker 3: 43:13

Yes, and this was literally a fork in the road with us. So, instead of being that nagging, forceful mom, I really needed to step away and let her be that person. She needed to become right. Yes, whether it be now or later down the road when she goes off to college, she needed a, I mean, and it was the right move, and Steve has been really, really helpful with me trying to navigate that, because I've completely let go. She needs to be an adult. This is where it started. This is where it started. So, yes, so she basically looked at all the colleges that she went through. She knew she needed to pick three categories of colleges her safety, her reach and her. What was the other one? I don't even know.

Speaker 3: 44:21

Like her first choices Her choice, right Choice, reach and safety. And I do check in with her and ask her how's it going. So she did everything on her own and that is what I call the proud moment as a mom, because even applying for her driver's license, Steve told me let her do it because if she does not learn how to do it on her own, she can't survive out there. Right, and the thing is I did it all on my own when I was that young. Actually, you can learn it, you figured it out. I figured it out and there was mistakes that I had along the way, but those were learning moments. So that's me learning as a person, as a mom.

Speaker 1: 45:22

But I needed that, yeah, but as mothers, we want to not let our kids go through the same pain and mistakes or whatever you want to call them as we did. So you're in treatment. What I'm hearing is your intentions were all good. It's just that at the moment you didn't know you were robbing her of that experience. And that's where we learned our lessons and gained the experience and do all those things.

Speaker 1: 45:48

And I had a big realization yesterday when I was doing a workshop for a bunch of young ladies, that we were talking about trauma and different things and boundaries and stuff like that, and I realized that I became because we want to become the better version of, or offer better things to our kids or do the things that our parents didn't do and I just realized I was like I became the mom that I always wanted. Yeah, I became the mom that I always wanted, the one that would listen, the one that would accept me for who I was, not freak out about silly things and do those things. And it sounded like you were portraying the parents you wanted but didn't realize your daughter didn't need that. Yeah, that's what it sounds like to me. If you bring it back, that's right.

Speaker 3: 46:41

Yeah, you're so right. So I do think about those moments, about when my parents raised me. I think what they did was probably the best thing, like hands off, hands completely off. I mean, they were there financially, oh maybe even not. Like we grew up with little money and, unfortunately, I was only able to apply to two colleges in San Diego, two Right, because of the application fees. Right Got rejected to one. I was forced to go to the other one. So you know, yes, you're right, but there was a good reason for it, because, as an adult, you need to be able to navigate the world by yourself.

Speaker 2: 47:32

Well, I think it's that whole as a parent being transparent with your kids. So, for very different reasons, my parents were hands off. Nobody in my family had ever gone to college before. Nobody would have known how to help me figure that out so.

Speaker 2: 47:47

I relied on teachers and counselors and people at school. But, like you said, I just did it and I was capable of doing it. And so it makes me think of two things. One is the number of times I've said to parents listen, if your kid can't navigate that process, they're not ready for college. And I know it's hard because, to your point, like you said, maybe I want her to go to Stanford or Harvard or Yale for bragging rights. But I also know you well enough to know that a large part of my guess is why you want her to go to those schools is because we attach this idea that if they go there they're going to be okay.

Speaker 2: 48:22

If they go there, we know it's going to lead to a thriving life down the road, which, by the way, not guaranteed even when you go to those schools Not guaranteed, not even close.

Speaker 2: 48:32

So we have these ideas in our head right that have been put there by all the things that we're surrounded by. So for me it's always been like, if your kid can't even navigate that process doesn't mean like you're doing a great job because you're saying do you need anything, Do you need help? It doesn't mean you don't offer help, but if you don't let them take the lead and organize and track and figure out where to go to apply and do all those things, they're not ready to go off and live by themselves at college. So that's the first thing. The second thing is, you know, when I was still a principal, there was a group of young men that I had worked with since middle school and as they got through every year, their parents, it was like a club almost, but their parents would hold like a little award assembly just for them, going from year to year to year. And it was a group for African American boys, right, and it was really designed to break some of the stereotypes around African American boys, especially as they navigate middle school into high school et cetera. So their junior year award ceremony, their parents invited me back to be the speaker, or what have you, and the message that I gave was it was for both the young men and their parents, but it was mostly for their parents and I said listen, this is a moment for you to check yourself, Because if you and I said some of the same things I've said here today, if you're checking their grades first, if you're this, if you're that, in other words, if you're being this hands on, then anything they achieve between now and graduation is yours, not theirs.

Speaker 2: 49:51

Yeah, so now you're, you're consistently sending a message, by the way, that I don't think you can do it. Every time you do it for them, you are telling them it's because you believe they cannot do it, period. That is the message that's being sent. There's also this idea that, like all the awards that they might earn, the scholarships that they might get, those won't be theirs, They'll be yours. So this is the time to let them be who they are and get to where they're going to go as a result of who they are, not because of who you are. So so you had. You know you went about that in such a hard way, but thank God you had the realization when you did, because not every parent does Right. Some of them do the pushing and the prodding and the shoving all the way through.

Speaker 1: 50:34

You get into adulthood. So, yeah, applause, rose, applause, amen, amen. And you know what? Thank your husband too, because he was a huge and what a great partner to actually, despite your rules you know, I use air quotes, your rules of don't get involved this was something. It was more than just discipline.

Speaker 1: 50:54

It was her future, you know, and he's like you just slow down and and what a great partner to be able to do that and and move through it and be supportive to both you and your daughter and navigate that. So I give, I give, is it Steven Steve? Yeah, steve Steve. A high five for me.

Speaker 2: 51:13

So Steve got a shout out on our podcast.

Speaker 1: 51:17

Yeah, steve got a shot. I should give it to be like dammit, I went on and you got a shout out.

Speaker 2: 51:24

So, as I'm looking at our time here, rose, I think the final piece here is is you know, you know, you know Emily, who's 10, she's coming up, you know right now.

Speaker 2: 51:35

He's. You know, you, you backed us all the way up to seventh grade and Maddie, where you started to see the habits that you were building and end up escalating right spring of her junior year. So and I know you already said, like you, you know, emily's going to need a little coaching, but I find that an interesting comment at 10. Yeah, you're still at so much road ahead of her. So what are you going to be thoughtful about to ensure that you don't end up in the same space? Because just because you figured it out doesn't mean that with the next kid you won't revert back.

Speaker 3: 52:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I just have to remember that, argue that breakdown that I had. Yeah, you know, every time, you know, and and it's starting like I asked her are you okay with school? She's okay, then we're fine, you know. That's. That's one thing. You know that. I have to just remember that argument because that that was really sad for me.

Speaker 2: 52:31

Yeah, Sometimes to get to the best place we have to go through the hardest spots, right Like that usually if it's uneventful and there's no hardship and there's no whatever, we're probably not in the best place.

Speaker 2: 52:44

we could be right. Yeah, and I have to remind myself of that because I'm somebody who I know I actively avoid conflict, right and so, and sometimes that's good and it's because I have a skill set to navigate conflict, but sometimes it's just because I'm avoiding conflict and I get that right. So sometimes the conflict and the breakdown, and as hard as it is in the moment, is the thing that leads you just to just the beautiful things. And you've created this space now where you and Maddie, like you said, you have a different relationship.

Speaker 3: 53:10

Yeah, we do. And now you know wherever she wants to go. I'll leave and take her on a trip to do college.

Speaker 1: 53:17

Oh my God.

Speaker 2: 53:19

It's because it could just be the two of us.

Speaker 1: 53:25

Girls trip. Yeah, I appreciate you sharing your story, rose, and being a super fan of dumpster diving with Janice and Jane. That makes me happy. You know, I love the fact that you're thinking forward with with Maddie, and is that the 10 year old Maddie, emily? Yeah so, but just think about it. You know she's 10, so she definitely doesn't know how to apply for college yet. So she'll, and I will be part of my process.

Speaker 3: 53:57

I have to say, I'm a lot happier now.

Speaker 1: 54:02

Good.

Speaker 3: 54:03

I throw that you know that that task out of my list. Just concentrate on.

Speaker 2: 54:10

Now you can pour all your energy into your cricket and making.

Speaker 1: 54:15

Yes, focus on. There you go. I appreciate you coming on and and sharing time with us and being a fan of our show. Please, you know, tell all your friends that you're on the podcast.

Speaker 3: 54:31

As soon as you send me the link, I'm posting on my page. You're amazing.

Speaker 2: 54:35

There we go. Thank you so much, rose, love you.

Speaker 1: 54:38

Yes, thank you. All right, guys, we'll see you soon.

Speaker 3: 54:43

Bye.