Cocoa Pods
Podcast - Cocoa Pods Series: A feature of the Birth Center Foundation.
We discuss all things' women, all things' pregnancy, all things' after. Reasons why women fall very sick ( morbidity) or die (mortality) before pregnancy (adolescent girls and young adults),during pregnancy and after are discussed in this maternal morbidity and mortality reduction academy; especially with an emphasis on minority women, all over the world; and ways for all involved in care to work together collaboratively and mitigate and or eliminate risks in women’s health.
Cocoa Pods
Confronting the Shadows of Intimacy and Renewal
When the bonds of matrimony are tested by the specter of infidelity, is forgiveness truly possible? Journey with us and our brave guest Lillian (a pseudonym) as she lays bare the soul-stirring odyssey of betrayal, forgiveness, and healing in the sacred covenant of marriage. Lillian's deeply personal account shines a light on the grueling yet transformative process of overcoming the silent ties that bind—those enigmatic soul ties that often make moving forward seem insurmountable. Her candid narrative, punctuated by the resilient joy of mending what was once broken, offers a testament to the power of positive affirmation and the seismic shifts that mindful self-reflection and intentional discourse can create within a relationship.
But this episode doesn't just linger on the challenges of one couple's journey; it encompasses the piercing clarity that comes from my own confrontation with betrayal and the subsequent path to inner peace. A poignant discussion on the significance of spiritual counsel in battling generational curses within marriage further enriches our dialogue. We uncover how the consistent shoring up of one's spouse through prayer and faith-centric counseling can reshape a narrative marred by pain, ushering in a renewed commitment symbolized by the simple act of wearing a wedding ring once more. Let this episode serve as a beacon for any soul navigating the stormy seas of marital strife, offering hope that the human spirit's capacity for love and healing knows no bounds.
You know, you act like and I'm talking to myself now in the mirror you act like you're so perfect. What if God threw all your sins up to you? What if he named you by your every sin you have done? You know, would you like that? So why would you do that to your husband?
Dr Bola Sogade:Welcome to CocoaPods podcast. My name is Dr Bola Sogade and I'm a women's health specialist. We continue our series from last week. We've been talking with Lillian that's her pseudonym and she's been sharing her life experiences, her marital experiences, the difficulties that she's gone through and the triumphs that she's had.
"Lillian" :So I had to just do heart to heart talks to myself. And even when those thoughts come in my mind, I want to say something. I catch myself and say, you know, jesus, you know, just help me, help me. And then my husband look at me and I said, no, I just want to say thank you for cleaning the house. You know, thank you for doing that. And he's like, oh, I appreciate it. So it was. I had to change my, my words and the way I thought, and it was a challenge. It was a challenge.
"Lillian" :Now, you mentioned soul tie at some point. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Soul ties, yes, so he had a soul tie, as in when he was with this young lady, they used to have matching outfits, they used to go to places together, they used to buy each other, they was in a relationship. You know like they was. And so, todd, he couldn't let go. Even when he came back to me at that time he still was talking, conversating with her, letting her know oh, it's going to this, oh, it's not this. And I don't know what me and my wife is doing. She's fussing, she's fighting, just like giving her a report about what's going on in the house that he can't let her go.
"Lillian" :You know, even though if the counselor, the pastor, was telling him change your number, oh, I can't change my number or get rid of clothes. He had clothes that he bought when he was with her and he didn't want to get rid of. And I was explaining to the pastor like this young lady sent me over 50 pictures of them together. You know this is embedded in my mind 50 pictures, family portraits with her and her family, like they was all. He had a whole double life and I can't get these images out of my mind. And when I see his clothes he's wearing, these are the same clothes and he won't get rid of them. And that's what he's trying to explain to him. You got a soul tie, you need to let that go. He was like no, these are my clothes and so tired. Is this something that you're having sexual activities or you're connected to a spirit that is is evil and not in God intention for you and and you can't let go, he couldn't let go.
Dr Bola Sogade:So that's what the pastor brought up when he said so how do you deal with that Now that he's no longer with that lady and he's back with you? How do you deal with the fact that there is this soul tie?
"Lillian" :It was hard Cause like, like I said, it was days that I will be talking to someone and I zone out, and they can just be talking to me laughing, and I laugh and I zone out thinking, and then it's like, hey, you heard me. It's like, oh, yeah, I heard you. You know, just zone out. And when I start doing that, I noticed that I lost myself. And so how I dealt with it, as I said before, I had to spend time with myself to heal because I never healed properly. I thought I healed but I didn't heal properly. So I'll write anything that bothered me. I used to write it down. If I got mad at him, if I want to say some bad things to him, I'll write it down. Write it down and I'll ball it up and I'll throw it away. And then I started speaking life into him out of my mouth, because you have to understand, kids are listening. And I remember growing up in my household. I was listening to my parents. I heard all those things that mom and dad was saying to each other and I was repeating the cycle and I had to be the cycle breaker. So I was like, well, what do I need to do? So I start writing it down, throwing it away to do so, I started writing it down, throwing it away. Or I started going and just taking long rides by myself, screaming, yelling, because the thoughts was there, the imaging in my mind was there in my head and I couldn't let it go. Even when I look at him, even if he got back intimate, the thoughts was there, you know, and he knew it. And I looked him in his face one day and said I need to heal and I need time. I don't know how much time it's going to take, but I need it. And he said take all the time you need. And I just spent time with God. I read books, I prayed, I cried, I wrote stuff down, I journaled and asked myself why did I stay so long? You know, why did I allow this to happen? And ask myself why did I stay so long? You know, why did I allow this to happen? What's wrong with me? You know? Am I insecure or do I not deserve love? All those things happen.
"Lillian" :But the beauty of it all was when I found out who the young lady was. She called me, remember, I told you. My mom said so. She called me and she said she was crying on the phone and I guess they got into a fight. And she called me and she said come get your husband. And I say, excuse me. And she said come get your husband. And I said, baby, what time is it? And she said it was about six or seven and it was about three or four in the morning. I said honey and this is me now because, keep in mind, I was over him. I said my office hours are between eight and nine. Call me back at eight and we can talk about it. I said how long y'all been talking? She said, oh, we've been together for a year. I said he's my husband, but that's your man. Whatever y'all got going on, you go figure it out and I hung the phone up. I went back to sleep. I went back to sleep because I was over him.
Dr Bola Sogade:And you could sleep.
"Lillian" :I slept good, I filed for divorce. I mean, you know, I filed and I was over him, I was done. And she called back and that cry I heard. I knew I know that cry and that's the cry I used to cry all the time. I got up out of my bed and I said are you okay? And she said no, I said I'm on my way.
Dr Bola Sogade:What time was? This it was about four in the morning. You called the doctor.
"Lillian" :No, she called me back.
Dr Bola Sogade:Oh, she called you back, crying. So, the second time.
"Lillian" :Uh-huh, uh-huh the second time and I went to her house Four o'clock in the morning by myself. She could have killed me, she could have did anything.
Dr Bola Sogade:And your husband was there.
"Lillian" :No, he left. They got into an argument and I went to her and I hugged her.
Dr Bola Sogade:Wow.
"Lillian" :I hugged her and she cried on my shoulder and she said I'm sorry. I said I know you are. I said, but you are stronger and you are better than this. I said I forgive you. I said, but I want you to forgive yourself. And she said I'm not going to go back to him. I said yes, you are, you love him.
Dr Bola Sogade:I said you're going to go back to him.
"Lillian" :Had you given up on him? Then yes, I said, yes, you are, you love him and you're going to go back to him. Know your worth. And she said I'm, you know, I'm not going to do this, no more. I'm sorry, he told me. I said I know he lied to you. I said but at some point you knew he was married too. And I'm hugging her this whole time. She could have stabbed me in my back, she could have did anything. I'm by myself, but she, she cried so bad on my arm and I didn't cry with her. It was just like I was consoling myself. I saw her in me and I held her and I hugged her and I prayed for her right then and there.
Dr Bola Sogade:I mean, how can you? Some women out there we want to know, how can you do that? I mean, this is your husband's girlfriend for one year she calls you in the dead of the night, crying, and you went to her and you never met her before, never. I mean what was going through your head?
"Lillian" :Um, a woman that needed support because at that time, like I said, I was over him. But I heard a woman that was naive. I heard me on the other end and I wanted someone to do that to me. So I heard she needed somebody there. So I went to her, I hugged her. I didn't have a scare or nervousness in my bone. I just heard a woman that needed grace. She needed grace, she needed forgiveness, she needed love. At that time she needed someone to tell her that you know, God still love you, but you have to love yourself and you have to know what you did is wrong, Um, but you're going to have to learn how to love yourself and get you know, give yourself grace to that he. He did, he did trick you, he didn't manipulate you, he did lie to you. But you have to learn how to love yourself.
Dr Bola Sogade:Now, part of the manipulation can also come from the woman in which they trapped the man and actually started family. They started family together.
"Lillian" :She was pregnant. She was pregnant. I found that out later on. She was pregnant, but they had an abortion. They had an abortion. I found that out later on. So all that was in my mind. You know, she was pregnant and they had an abortion, which I don't really think. He wanted that baby, but he didn't stop her for not doing it like that, yeah. So, yeah, she, she shared that with me too and at the time I wasn't. I wasn't angry when she told me that because, again, I was over him. I wasn't angry. I was hurting for her because she had to go through that. And I looked at him when she told me.
"Lillian" :Then I realized at that time too, she was being manipulative because she's trying to tell me all these things to get me to go away so she can be with him. Because, keep in mind, I said, he's a provider, good with money, good with providing, good with taking care of you. So when I realized that early on what she was trying to do, after I didn't hug her, told her, god, after I did all of that, I said, oh, I know this tactic, what is she trying to do? And I looked at him and I said she's never going to forget this. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. And he said no, she, you know, blaming it on her and everything like this. And it was crazy. He was just blaming everything on her and she wanted it.
"Lillian" :I said so what do you want? I don't want no baby bodies, this woman. I said did you hear that? Yeah, he didn't say that. The other night I said, of course, you know, of course, but she was naive once, like I was, and still calling him. He was still calling her. That's that soul tie the preacher was talking about. They were still, even after all that even he called her out her name. I don't want you, I want my wife. You are this, you are that, you are this and this and da-da-da-da, and still kept calling her. So that's that soul tie that the pastor was explaining to him and educating him and us both about.
Dr Bola Sogade:So you know, fast forward now. You guys have been together after this for how long, oh?
"Lillian" :six years.
Dr Bola Sogade:And you said he changed.
"Lillian" :He has, he changed. But in the beginning I didn't. I didn't want to change, I wanted to hold on. I wanted to be a. If I could have been a witch, I would have, I would have cast spells, I would have did and I know it sounds so evil, but if I could have, I would have. That's how angry and that's how I allowed hatred and unforgiveness to settle in my body, because I didn't. You know, I tell you, I forgive you, but I really don't. And all that hatred and stuff start coming up and yeah, if, oh, but he, he changed. He, he did a 360. God was doing a major thing in him, but not for me. I didn't want to change, I didn't want to change at all. I was mean and I was hateful.
Dr Bola Sogade:So what is helping you change now?
"Lillian" :That talk. I had time to heal after I had that talk with him and told him I need to heal. I need time because I can't keep doing this. This is not a Christian way. This is not how God attend for marriage to be and you don't deserve this, you know. So I heal. He gave me time to heal. That mean, he just gave me space.
Dr Bola Sogade:So space away from him.
"Lillian" :He was, he'll work. He'll pick up more hours at work and he'll let me. He'll go sleep in the other room or he'll, you know, he'll go get, take the kids somewhere to have me a spa day. You know, he'll probably get a spa day for me. He used to buy me journals. He used to put in the old music in the house settling music, something to ease my mind in the house and just let just, let me be so he. He, let he, let me be so he, let me just sit in it. Sit in it, you know, and he'll ask me do you need anything, do you? You know? No, just get away from me, you know stuff like that.
"Lillian" :So, yeah, so I healed from that and it took time, a lot of forgiveness for myself. I had to forgive myself for staying because I didn't. I'm like, why did I? I had to forgive myself for staying. I had to forgive myself for staying because I didn't. I'm like, why did I? I had to forgive myself for staying. I had to forgive myself for loving someone more than I love myself. I had to forgive myself. And once I learned how to forgive myself and it came easy. And then I learned how to not worry about what nobody think, because I'm like well, what people going to think if we get a divorce? I don't want people to know they're going to say it's my fault Because you know, and that was my second thing. But once I learned to overcome that and just stayed in the word and just know that God had us and had me, everything just flowed after that.
Dr Bola Sogade:Now, while you were healing, were you guys intimate Were?
"Lillian" :you guys intimate. I tried not to, but I think the more we were intimate, I think it helped us. Because I didn't want to, because I think it was just sex. I didn't. It's like, oh, it's sex, because I don't love you like that, no more. Because even when we got back together I didn't love him.
"Lillian" :But remember what I said in the beginning of the podcast, that I didn't marry for love, I married for stability. So all that when I was healing all that came to me. You didn't even love this man, in love with him when you married him. You loved him because you loved him enough to marry, but wasn't in love. You married him for these reasons. You knew what he was doing, you knew you had some type of. You knew, but you still married him because that was what you taught, that's what you was taught growing up to do.
"Lillian" :So God showed me that he was showing me me and that's when I learned how to love him properly. So the intimacy after that was just good because I learned how to love him and I realized and I had to go to my husband and apologize and tell him I didn't know how to be a wife, just like he didn't know how to be a husband. I'm learning and as well as he's learning how to be a husband. We're gonna learn together how to work this thing out and we're going to break generation curses together and I want to love you properly, just like I want you to love me properly, and I'm going to, you know I'm. We're teaching each other how to love each other properly and how to love each other, you know.
"Lillian" :So once I learned that with him, it became easier and you know, we the disrespect and all that stuff, it ceased and it stopped. And when I, god was showing me, when I got out of God way, that's when he showed me like you know, if you get out of my way, I'll show you, I'll do it. So I, that's when the the worldly eyes was taken off of me and God was showing me the spiritual eyes of him, of my husband, and I could say, oh, okay, I could see him and you had used the word cover him.
Dr Bola Sogade:Someone was mad at you or somebody said you should have covered him. What does that mean?
"Lillian" :Mom told me. She said you got to learn how to cover your husband. That means pray for him. Instead of going to get on the phone talking to your girlfriends, talking to people about your husband and pointing out his insecurities, you know, learn how to go to God and say you know, cover him. Cover him, pray for him, protect him, ask God for protection over his life.
"Lillian" :Whatever you don't understand about him, go to God, because your friends didn't create him, god created him. They don't understand it. You guys are going to be on the phone talking two, three hours about the same thing with both. Oh, your husband do this, my husband do that too. Girl, but God was, you know, she was like. You got to learn how to cover your husband. Go to God, god, I don't understand this about him. Teach me about him. Teach me how to pray for him. Teach me what to say, how to approach him. Is the words I'm saying not enough? And even sometimes that will work, sometimes that won't work, but you just don't give up, because if he wants to change, he'll change. He'll change. If he wants to receive it, he will receive it. And he did, he did.
Dr Bola Sogade:Wow. So now you guys are together, you're doing a spiritual journey together. Are you still in counseling together?
"Lillian" :We are. We're still in counseling how?
Dr Bola Sogade:frequently do you?
"Lillian" :We do it every month. We was doing it twice a month, but now we do it every month With a Christian counselor.
Dr Bola Sogade:Yes.
"Lillian" :Christian counselor. He was doing it with the military counselor. He does one privately by himself and we'll do it together and it works. But it also works when we counsel each other together. So now we do this, we check in, we do a check in with each other. Now, how are you doing today? Is there anything you'd like to talk about? Is there something that we need to discuss today? Did I say anything to offend you today? You know, let's talk about us and we check in with each other, see where we at mentally, see where we at spiritually. How can I be of service to you today? You know things that we never did before because we wanted to make it work.
"Lillian" :I don't, I do not, encourage nobody to do what I do. Uh, and lest you believe in fighting, just cause this is a fight that you will doubt your faith. You will, you know, do everything to that. That is not godly, but I will. I won't encourage nobody to do it, but if I can do it, you can do it too. I'm letting anyone else, anybody out there, know that who's going through a divorce or who's dealing with infidelity in a marriage, you still want to fight and you still believe there is hope. There is hope. But if you believe to let it go, let it go. Also go to counseling first. Exhort all your options before you make your final decision. But it is life after infidelity.
Dr Bola Sogade:Wow, do you feel your children are grounded more because you've had this fight and you stayed in it for them and they see both parents?
"Lillian" :They see both parents. They see their dad as they see him changing. Because my oldest, when I told my husband I would get a divorce and we call the kids in and say we're getting divorced, my oldest cried and he said why are you doing this to me, mommy? And I'm looking at him like did you not know what your dad had just did? But he, they look at mommy, you know, why are you doing this to me, mommy? You're breaking up our family. And my baby said you're making me a statistic. It's like how would I make your statistic? He said you're making me grow up without a father, you know, and that broke my heart because it's like you don't even understand. You know, and I also realized why some people stay in broken marriages for the kids because they want to, you know, keep that father and the household is toxic. That's what my mom did.
"Lillian" :So I saw my kids. I saw me and my kids. So I was like I got to stop the cycle. So the healing was necessary for me because my mama never healed. To this day. They've been divorced for over 30 years, to this day. She still talks about it to this day. If I can say something about something she's like oh yeah, I remember your daddy used to like mama. That was like 40 years ago and I had to break the cycle. I was like I can't do that. I can't continue to talk about something that hurt me that long. I got to let that go. So the healing started with us and he's like I said. We've been together for five years since then and it was not easy, but it was worth it.
Dr Bola Sogade:Yeah, I see the huge ring on your the cute diamond rock on your finger.
"Lillian" :So yeah, yeah, wow, he's a gift giver and I only you know I'm not materialistic, but he is, so of course I say he's a gift giver but we're taking care of the inside and the out. So, cause the outside could look good, but that inside can be tore up. So I want to take, I want that inside to be good, because I didn't, this ring was just sitting, I didn't wear it for years, I didn't wear it for years and I put it back on when that inside start looking good, because I can't, I can't show you my outside Like girl, yes, everything, oh, we doing good, but that inside is terrible. So once that inside got good because your household is your first ministry, so once my ministry, or my church, which is my family, got into one, we became one and we came in order, and that's when I was like, okay, I can put the ring back on.
Dr Bola Sogade:And do you feel you broke the generational curse?
"Lillian" :I did.
Dr Bola Sogade:Because you said something about his grandfather, yep.
"Lillian" :His grandfather, uncles. He said that's all he saw. That didn't? They didn't you know they cheated on their wives or girlfriends. And he thought that you know, that's what men do. And he's actually. He actually talked to young men and other merit men about his experience, what he has done, and he also encouraged him. And the thing he told me was he said he apologized and he said it was a mix of pieces.
"Lillian" :You know, each year or each, whatever I mean, he'll come and tell me you know things. And when we talk like, do you want to say something? And he'll say I was insecure. He said I was selfish. He said I was a very selfish individual. I didn't care about nobody, not even my kids. He said I got married too young and I didn't want a family.
"Lillian" :And just to hear him say those words, I wanted to slap the fire out of his mouth because you saying you got married too young, you didn't want to be married and you didn't want kids at that young age, and so you decided to do what you want to do because you still want, you want to have your fun, eat it too. I was livid. Like I can up and leave. I couldn't take a break if I want to take a break, you know.
"Lillian" :But to hear those words I wanted to slap him down, but I had to sit in it and listen because I can't Sometimes. We got to learn how to be quiet and listen. The truth don't have to be pretty sometimes, but it's the truth and that's his truth. And I had to listen and refrain from just going off and just say I get it. And I did get it, because sometimes I want to run away, I want to run away from kids, I want to run away from life. I want to do this and I get it, but I can't. And he did. And that moment I was like how are you crazy? You know, that was his truth. The bow and everything wasn't pretty, but that was his truth. Crazy, you know that was his truth.
Dr Bola Sogade:The bowl and everything wasn't pretty, but that was his truth. So, lillian, you, we just you've shared, we're just so grateful to you for coming to Coco Pods podcast um, for sharing your lived experience. Like I said, not everybody has this wonderful story to tell and I like the fact that you said you know for people at the verge of separation, at the verge of divorce, if you feel you have a fight in you and you want to fight for it, especially if you have children involved and um, you know you are safe, you know he's not like actively trying to kill you, yeah, yeah, yeah, then fight, fight fight, fight, fight.
"Lillian" :Because you're not wrestling between him, you're wrestling between generation curses. You're fighting demons. You're fighting stuff that way, before our time, that he's been battling with. We're fighting society. You're fighting stuff.
"Lillian" :Men go through all the time and I'm not just talking about this infidelity. They go through a lot. You know. Sometimes, as women, we push them away where sometimes they just don't know, especially when you're married young. They just don't know, not excusing no man or saying no, they just don't know. We're too individual and that is what God is. We are too imperfect people deserving a perfect God. We're imperfect, so we're going to have challenges, not saying to stay though. Now, if you want to leave and you're like I'm done, hey, be done.
"Lillian" :And, like I said, the only reason I stayed is because I healed and I realized that I was part of the problem. I was part of the problem. I was part of the problem because I wasn't honest when we got married. I didn't love you. I loved you, but it wasn't enough. I was part of the problem because I wasn't honest when we got married. I didn't love you. I loved you, but it wasn't enough. I was part of the problem because I allowed him to disrespect me for so long and not had a voice. I was part of the problem and that's a problem, because you don't stand up for yourself and you let people keep running over you and running over you. I was part of the problem is because I didn't know how to be a wife and that could be a problem, because if you don't know how to be a wife and he don't know how to be a husband, that's just my theory of it. I had to learn how to be a wife.
"Lillian" :As a woman, we know we talk too much. We want to go on the phone and gospel and yell, but that's what I saw. That's what I saw. I saw aggressiveness, I saw cussing out, I saw pointing fingers, I saw manipulation growing up in my household and I thought that's how you function and that was part of the problem. He didn't. He didn't grow up like that.
"Lillian" :So when I had to take accountability for stuff that I did not excuse what he did, but stuff that I've done I've looked up. I looked at phones and looked at men with big muscles before and so, oh Jesus, he's fine. And looked at men with big muscles before and said, oh Jesus, he's fine. You don't think God said okay, because in the Bible they say even look, I mean it's in your heart, you're seeing, that's adultery, you know. So I had to look at all of that stuff and say, god, okay, and do I want God to call me by all my sins that I did or thought about? You know? Do I want that? So and he became my best friend again Before we got married. He's my best friend and we found our friendship again. And once we found our friendship, the intimacy became better again.
Dr Bola Sogade:Wow, Lilian. Thank you so much. In our upcoming episode we talk more with Lillian and Charles and see how ego intertwines with all of this. Thank you for listening to CocoaPods Podcast. I'll see you next time.
